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Scottish Cardinal Attacks US 'Culture of Vengeance'
The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland has attacked the US over the release of the Lockerbie bomber.
Scottish Cardinal Keith O'Brien has criticized US 'lecturing' on justice Cardinal Keith O'Brien said the Scottish government was right
to free Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi last year on compassionate grounds.
US lawmakers want Scots politicians to explain their decision to a committee, but the cardinal said ministers should not go "crawling like lapdogs".
He said Scotland had a culture of care, while the US was fixed on vengeance.
Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill released Megrahi, who has prostate cancer, after being told that three months was a "reasonable estimate" of his life expectancy.
'Invidious company'However, he is still alive after almost a year and the decision continues to provoke anger in the United States, which was home to 189 of the 270 people killed on board Pan Am flight 103 in 1988.
In an interview with BBC Scotland, Cardinal O'Brien said Americans were too focused on retribution.
"In many states - more than half - they kill the perpetrators of horrible crimes, by lethal injection or even firing squad - I say that is a culture of vengeance," he said.
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - that is not our culture in Scotland and I would like to think that the US government, and these states that do still have capital punishment, would learn something from us."
The cardinal said Americans should "direct their gaze inwards" rather than scrutinise how the Scottish justice system worked.
He said the use of the death penalty meant the US kept "invidious company" with countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.
"In some states it's month by month now that they are killing people who have a right to live, whatever they've done wrong," he said.
He also backed the Scottish government's decision not to give evidence to American senators investigating Megrahi's release.
"The Scottish government has made the decision and the Scottish government is answerable to the Scottish people - not the US government or US citizens.
"Everyone acted according to Scots law in releasing Megrahi on compassionate grounds, having taken medical advice.
"I still think they did the right thing, although the man is still alive.
"We shouldn't be crawling out to America, or having them come here and questioning us on our own territory."
Reacting to the cardinal's comments, Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon told the BBC that the Scottish government's position remained that it had nothing to hide.
She said: "Al-Megrahi's release was a release on compassionate grounds, Kenny MacAskill has already made that clear and we've made that clear to the United States Senate."
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71 Comments so far
Show AllGood for the Scots and the Scottish Catholics.
Of course, compassion is such a foreign concept to the USAn mind that they will always see it as malevolence and evil instead. What a sick people!
(and yes, I know there are some exceptions)
We need to get worldwide movement of shaming and ostracism directed toward the US, hopefully in forms with economic teeth.
Had the alleged bomber been denied release on compassioante grounds he would have continued with his appeal process. Doing so would undoubtedly have brought to light even more inconsistancies and untruths from the 'trial' and may well have lead to his exonneration and perhaps evidence of complicity by some 'western governmment' in the bombing of the aircraft. It interesting to me that so much journalistic time is being spent merely reporting on wheather or not Scotland 'did the right thing' rather than reopening a thourough investigation of the whole case. It is not at all unusal for someone with advanced cancer to live longer than expected especially in a more caring environment than that which one might find in prison. Odd too that some tabloid has not yet shown us photos of the 'bomber' skipping about the Libyan seaside apparently thumbing his nose at the world. I imagine the guy is too poorly to go out much....there is a differnce between merely being alive and enjoying quality of life.
Second that motion. The US Senate should be spending its time looking at the lawbreaking by US politicians, like Bush/Cheney, rather than worrying about what Scotland (or any other country) does. What an arrogant p.o.s. is US imperialism.
I hope that SOB gets whats coming to him for having the NERVE to call our culture one of vengeance! (Yes irony intended)
I makes me ROTFLMAO when people say we are a country with "Judeo-Christian" values. The last I checked one of Christianity's values was forgiveness. My guess is we are now the least forgiving democracy on the planet, with the possible exception of Israel, which, surprise surprise, puts the Judeo in those Judeo-Christian values.
Then there are those pesky 10 commandants, which every conservative politician seems to want pasted on every town hall and court house in the land, but they will ignore those same commandments at the drop of a hat. Especially the ones about killing, and cheating on a spouse.
Oh well pass me a bottle of ceremonial wine. Make it a big one because I was a bad boy this week, Yea I know it's early (10:38 AM) but then it is Sunday after all...
Amen to the Scottish church.
Every country in the world should stamp their passports with the statement, "We won't crawl out to America".
Forget the death penalty. Every year Amnesty International comes out with a report of how the U.S. tortures prisoners. It goes way beyond vengeance into the realm of wanton sadistic cruelty.
Lots of folks who read the bible apparently never get past the Pentateuch (Torah). All that "an eye for an eye" stuff is in the Old Testament: Leviticus, Exodus, and Deuteronomy. Keep reading. You don't want the whole world to be as blind as it seems to have become.
The fulfillment of the law is in Paul's letter to the Romans 12:19 Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say, "I will take revenge; I will pay them back," says the LORD. It's a long way from Genesis to Paul. Our readerly-challenged citizenry seems too intent on listening to pastors and too lazy to read the whole document--sort of like most of us in response to Wikileaks.
Revere such true heroes as Julian Assange and Bradley Manning for helping us to _see_ with insight--at least with the good explicators.
Well, Moses was a pretty important guy. And god spoke to him directly. And told him some laws. And to make sure no one forgot them, he carved them in stone! They were not hard laws to understand: one sentence long, and no complicated exceptions. One of them was "thou shalt not kill." It's pretty simple really.
Yeah, but you must have been raised a Catholic, and learned the "nicer" more compassionate version of the Ten Commandments. The Protestant (King James) version has this fine bit in the second commandment:
"I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
Vindictive bastard, isn't he?
And more ironic, I only read and learned this version of the Ten Commandments a few years ago, on a large bronze plaque on the side of the Allegheny County (PA) Courthouse while waiting for a bus, in a country where there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. Odd that it is always the Protestant version that is put up, even Protestants are a minority, as in Pittsburgh.
["thou shalt not kill." ]
Actually the line is 'thou shall not _murder_'. Killing people is quite alright for this god psychopath. If you read the whole story in Exodus you'd see it ends with a planned genocide of the people who lived in 'the land of milk and honey'. Of course, there is no more evidence that Moses lived than Hercules lived; both are mythical figures who did not exist.
There is also two separate versions of the 'ten commandments'. word of god, yah, sure...
As an American descended from the Scots, I applaud your stand. I, too, have a serious series of issues with that my country has become under the last 30 years of right wing rule. I commend the Scots for NOT bending over to the US, and I sincerely hope that more of the world does the same.
This country under the right wing authoritarians has become the most vengeful, mean, nasty and cowardly country out there. We have FAR more people in prison than any other country in the world, we spend more on "defense" than all the rest of the world COMBINED, and we go around invading countries that present us with no dangers at all. The right wing is shallow, petty, greedy, selfish, and doesn't even see any contradictions in it's own policy of blatant hypocrisy. The left in this country has slid so far to the right in the last 3 decades that it's far to the right of Europe's righties. We as a country have lost our humanity. That is what happens when everything is based on money and possessions, not on humanity and doing good things.
BTW, I'm still enough of a Scot that I always keep one thistle in my yard. This year's was over 8 feet tall, with 25 flowers on it. What a beauty!
Is it a real Scottish Thistle (Onopordon acanthium) or the common US Bull Thistle (Cirsium vulgare)?
I doubt it's a real Scot thistle, but I'll take it as opposed to no thistle at all. In fact, on the instruments I build (mostly mandolas and small guitars) I put a thistle on the top in abalone and purple river shell.
I've never seen a Scottish thistle get as tall as this one is, so I suspect it's origins are not of the Isle. Beautiful flowers, though, and lots of them. I've never seen an 8 foot tall thistle of any variety before, so this is a fun thing to have going.
This is the first time I've ever seen one this big too - and I don't recognize the variety. I'll know more once it flowers - soon, I hope, since it's almost as tall as the trees around it (which is why it didn't get accidentally mowed down this spring). It's not a bull-thistle - have seen enough of them (in the hayfields, as a kid - digging them up by hand). Maybe I should take a sprig to the local farm agency and see if they know what it is. There are no other ones like it anywhere around here, either - some bird must have 'dropped it off' as in 'passing through' - and I don't mean just migrating...
Beware of this invasive species getting away in the wild. The seeds travel extremely far on the wind. Scotch thistles can be very destructive of your native flora.
I'm a liberal and an atheist and I still think this jackass should have died in jail. And fuck the catholic church.
Proves the point that in America, when one scratches a "liberal" one finds a fascist.
Mine hasn't flowered yet, and I can't get close enough to get a good measure of height, but it looks more like a Christmas tree than a thistle - and it's TALL!
Otherwise, I agree with your assessment of the US under fascist rule. 100%.
The article of course conveniently neglects to mention that Megrahi was framed in this case, which is the tacit reason they are letting him go. There is a great deal of evidence, including testimony by Scottish police in the case, to support this thesis, and in any case Megrahi was convicted on the flimsiest of evidence, the testimony of an unreliable witness. For more on the travesty of justice that was the Megrahi trial, see the writings of John Pilger, among others.
Or for an even more interesting take, listen to Ralph Schoenman and Mya Shone's talk, "Libya and Lockerbie: The Untold Story": http://takingaimradio.com/mp3/takingaim090825.mp3
Damn! I thought nobody was ever going to get around to mentioning that minor little
detail. Or that evidence was manufactured...and pressure put on the court...by the US. Or that the whole thing was about to blow up on the appelate review. And how can those haughtily indignant congress-persons not know about that?
"The article of course conveniently neglects to mention that Megrahi was framed in this case, which is the tacit reason they are letting him go." –(clovis)
–I, too, was astounded by this omission. I'm glad you caught this, though such legal niceties matter little, if at all, to the vengeful minded American fascists and racists who have despoiled this thread.
It is precisely this kind of vicious, jingoistic hatred that makes people the world over feel that even if in truth al-Megrahi was guilty, perhaps he was an avatar of the greater good. For who can say that the destruction of America is not a much to be wished for dream for millions all over the planet?
The apologists for American blood lust apparently have no qualms or concerns about burning in some future Hell of their own making. And if the testament of the recent historical record reveals anything at all, then this– perhaps future eventuality– will have more to do with justice than mere vengeance?
But even if Megrahi was not framed, the Scottish decision is a noble one, as was the Catholic church's.
Come dance with me in the light, dancer, not in the shadows, dancer. The music plays no matter who is dancing, dancer, but ware the cold notes of night, dancer.
The United States needs to grow up. We are still a nation filled with aggressive frontier cowboys, and we no longer have any frontier left to "conquer" (steal) from the Natives. So now we once again are looking beyond our borders, to see what else we can steal.
As an alleged illegitimate descendant of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemming and thus part English, Scotch, and black; I say good on the Scots, the north of the border Brits, and they are British as they're part of the UK, which defines what is British. The Scots really stand up for what the rest of the British people should stand up for. As blacks have been the invisible Americans, Scotland has been the invisible part of the UK. But it's time to stand up say I'm Scotch and I'm proud even if a person isn't Sean Connery or Tommy Sheridan, a great leader when they were being purged from British Labor.
AD
The people of Scotland are either Scots or Scottish.
Scotch is for drinking.
but then - you may well be a goodly part Scotch.
who am I to judge?
As an alleged illegitimate descendant of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemming and thus part English, Scotch, and black; I say good on the Scots, the north of the border Brits, and they are British as they're part of the UK, which defines what is British. The Scots really stand up for what the rest of the British people should stand up for. As blacks have been the invisible Americans, Scotland has been the invisible part of the UK. But it's time to stand up say I'm Scotch and I'm proud even if a person isn't Sean Connery or Tommy Sheridan, a great leader when they were being purged from British Labor.
AD
And to think that most people in the USA believe that they are by far the most generous, forgiving, peaceful, Christian (no doubt) and the list goes on...on the face of the earth.
Kudos to Scotland! And shame on the US for interfering in other country's affair.
Furthermore, why don't just stay away? That simple! Stay home and leave the rest of the world alone. Above all, please try your hardest not to bring "democracy" anywhere.
Exactly. Therein lies the future of America's downfall. Their ridiculous exceptionalism, whereby all Americans feel they are the "good guys," and nothing the U.S. does is ever, EVER wrong or evil.
Americans hate looking in the mirror. They are quite scared of what they know will be reflected back. The U.S. has become that which they hate, and they can't stand the Truth of that.
Good riddance when the U.S. reaps what it has sown.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross."
Sinclair Lewis, "It Cant Happen Here", 1935
I was arrested in Seattle on false charges put forth by a confused and dishonest woman. I never got a chance to tell my side of the story. By now, 15 years later, her false accusations have cost me $1,000,000 in lost salary. I was put in jail in the felons outfit in a holding tank full of deranged maniacs. I was never guilty of a crime, but had to plead guilty to a misdemeanor to get them to agree to drop the bogus 11 felony charges against me for things I was accused of, making hang-up calls, that I never made and no evidence exists or existed, other than a deranged person's accusations that they even happened, let alone were connected with me.
Our "justice" system does not follow the U.S. Constitution and we need to rise up and overthrow the entire corrupt mess from the President on down. We may end up having to use Stalinist methods against them just in order to establish a government that resembles what American democracy is supposed to look like.
He was convicted in Scotland, not the United States.
My heart skipped a beat when I saw that a Catholic Cardinal was denouncing the U.S. for seeking vengeance. I thought that he would mention things other than the death penalty and the release of the prisoner with cancer. What about all the wars where America killed foreigners who in turn killed a few thousand Americans civilians, who in turn used the vengeful attack on the U.S. to justify vengeance on them and blow up their country and hundreds of thousands if not a million of foreign civilians, who had nothing to do with the attack on U.S. civilians. I thought all the Catholic Hierarchy was concerned about was forcing women to have babies that might cause the pregnant girl or woman's death or babies they cannot feed or care for, through laws banning contraception and abortion even to save the woman's life.If she is Catholic, excommunicate her then put her in jail.And the same goes for the provider. The Catholic Cardinal should not talk about vengeance.
Ever heard of Bishop Romero? Ever heard Catholic movements like Liberation Theology, Catholic Worker houses, Ploughshares, Pax Christi, etc, etc?
There are no "laws" banning contraception.
Why in the world should the people and government of Scotland apologize to any American legislators or any Americans?
Really, American legislators, you have much to apologize for to the American citizens.
Get thee behind me, American SPIN DOCTORS!
You're right Cardinal! Maybe we could just relocate terrorists to different locations so that they can terrorize others. You know, like the church does with all its pedophiles.
Maybe we could then start right where it's at its worst: The US government and army, the major terrorists in world history, and their close second the Israeli government. A good way is to send them to Nuremberg.
Then we could worry about the chickenshit you have your hear buried in.
Get your right-wing Nazi ass off of these forums. If I want to hear fascist neo-con BS, I can tune into Fox "News," you piece of fascist bullshit.
Who would Jesus bomb? Enjoy Hell when you get there, prick.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross."
Sinclair Lewis, "It Cant Happen Here", 1935
Did he really say that?
As Obama once said, "I don't want to look at the past, I only want to look at the future."
He did not want to open up an investigation of 9/11!
Obama.like most Americans believed that a guy in a cave
was able to convince NORAD to run five practice exercises
on 9/11 so that four hijacked planes could not be intercepted.
Therefore, The Invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are justified!
Pedophiles exist in the Department of Defense! Remember, NY Times,DOD's Co-Conspirator, broke the story last week! That's ok, DOD will investigate itself and go on murdering unarmed civilians all over the world!
By the way, search "Chemtrails" the U.S. and Britain have been able to create droughts and torrential rains since early 50's....That might explain the historic Russian drought and fires and the Pakistani' floods.
Well, well, well now we have a two bit country like Scotland criticizing the USA because we aren't lame pussies like them. You damn right we want vengeance on this rag head and the monkey in charge of the Justice Dept in Scotland. I think he goes by the name of Kenny. I forgot his last name. The cardinal should shut his pie hole. The catholic church has no right to criticize us about anything. Look at the history of the catholic church. There is no country that has more blood on their hands than the Vatican. They murdered millions in the crusades, They helped Spain kill off about 90% of the indigenous people in Latin America. They had anal sex with young boys and covered it up for years. No cardinal you have no right to criticize us. People have to know that we never forget a wrong to the USA. There was over 3 thousand people killed in the twin towers and some of them were your country men.
"we never forget a wrong to the USA"
so how was bush elected TWICE?
Bush wasn't elected twice. He stole two elections.
Well spoken, Cardinal -- many thanks.
Fab..
"Well, well, well now we have a two bit country like Scotland criticizing the USA."
"The catholic church has no right to criticize us about anything."
"They had anal sex with young boys and covered it up for years."
Well, yes, in Scotland they did.. and of course other countries, like America.
Picture caption: "Here lieth the Holy Potato Chip".
I just don't know. I can tolerate much of the juvenile buffoonery with which the Americans plague the rest of the world. I can even go some way towards explaining their sick, sick, Divine-right, Old Testament sense of Frontier justice.
But when it comes to Yanks (80% of whom don't even have a passport and couldn't identify a haggis if one bit them) taking a swipe at the Scottish justice system, I start to see red. I start hearing the skirl of pipes and my palms get itchy. I start seeing hilltops and mist and tribes charging down purple hills.
That don't mean nuttin for you, perhaps, but it does mean that next time I am sat next to a loud, over-eager, pig-ignorant Yank on a dive boat or a bus or in the park or in the restaurant, I will, despite my best intentions, be sending negative vibes their way, and so increase their discomfort and no doubt reinforce their prejudices.
I know it's wrong, but that skirl of pipes is in my head now and the mist is creeping around my ankles and the road is rising to meet my feet.
When r the supposedly puritanical americans going to wake up from their deep slumber? Are u americans not aware that your country was founded on the blood of 17 million native ameericans who lived peacefully on their own land. Please read the Peoples History of the United States by Howard Zinn to tune in to history the way it went down and not the way they want u to believe it went down.
Millions have been killed all over the world by these hypocritical "puritanical" Americans. It may be to mentally taxing to take you back in history but recent american adventures at the behest of their zionist rulers may shed some light on way your country is headed. Iraq and Afghanistan are minor examples of zionist greed and quest for power at all costs. Afghanistan was attacked for its tillion dollar resources which they just claim they have. 9/11 was an inside mossad/cia job to get a mandate from the sleeping american mass to go out on their robbing adventure...robbing for resources & power...thats all these wars are for + the defence industry makes its billions on the misery of millions of lives...wake up america and exercise your conscience or u too will become slaves of your zionist masters!!!
I don't know anything about 'Keith O'Brien' - but judging from some of the comments here, I'd say his point is well taken. To blame him personally for the wrong-doings of the Catholic church (I'm an atheist, by the way) - exacting vengeance, even if just rhetorical - is exactly what he's talking about - the culture of vengeance, violence, hatred - what is wrong with the US today (and apparently always, according to Zinn, Twain, etc,). Why so mean-spirited? Especially considering the suspicious nature of the 'trial' - let alone his condition... And I wouldn't call O'Brien's honest comments an 'attack' - he's just stating an opinion held by many. Both the death penalty and torture are considered barbaric by most civilized people - not to mention murdering millions of innocent civilians in wars of aggression (or illegal/immoral occupations).
"the death penalty and torture are considered barbaric by most civilized people"
both are considered such by ALL civilized people.
Cardinal O'Brien's words to the Americans expresses the widespread sentiment shared by people all over the world.A country whose Presidents and Govt. should be facing Nuremberg type trials for repeated war crimes all over the world,has the courage to summon leaders of Scotland over a well thought and considered decision.
How many US officials have answered for their for their murderous actions?Are the Americans deteriorating morally as well as mentally?
A country that loves bammin! , bammin!, bammin!!, and bammin !! ?
Has anyone at all been tried for shooting down the Iranian Passenger jet during the Iraq/Iran war?
I understand the Captain of the Vincense (sp?) USN missile cruiser that shot the fully occupied Airbus recieved a medal.