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TechnoratiTurkish PM Greeted by Cheers After Israel Debate Clash
Recep Tayyip Erdogan argued with Israeli president over Gaza offensive, before storming out
Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, arrived home to a tumultuous reception of cheering crowds early today after storming out of a debate in Davos over Israel's recent offensive in Gaza.
![[Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is seen during a session at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, on Thursday, Jan. 29, 2009.
(AP Photo/Michel Euler)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/turkishPM.jpg "turkishPM.jpg")
Hours after clashing with the Israeli president, Shimon Peres, in angry scenes at the normally sedate world economic forum, he was welcomed at Istanbul's Ataturk airport by thousands of supporters waving Turkish and Palestinian flags and chanting "Turkey is proud of you". Sympathisers also left bouquets of flowers at his official residence.
The outpouring of support displayed the domestic political capital Erdogan gained from his performance at the Swiss resort, where he told Peres: "When it comes to killing, you know very well how to kill." He then walked off the stage, declaring that he would never return to Davos, after claiming he had not been allowed to speak by the debate moderator, the Washington Post columnist David Ignatius.
Erdogan also accused Peres of raising his voice and claimed the Israeli statesman had been allowed more speaking time than himself and the panel discussion's two other participants, the UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon, and Amr Moussa, secretary general of the Arab League.
Peres had earlier made an impassioned defence of Israeli actions in Gaza, asking Erdogan: "What would you do if you were to have in Istanbul every night a hundred rockets?" Erdogan responded by saying: "President Peres, you are older than me and your voice is very loud. The reason for you raising your voice is the psychology of guilt ... I know very well how you hit and killed children on the beaches."
The prime minister's wife, Emine - who this month organised a Women For Peace In Palestine lunch for the wives of Islamic dignitaries - also became involved, bursting into tears after telling reporters that "everything Peres said was a lie".
Erdogan's outburst was his most high-profile in a series of outspoken attacks on Israel's Gaza operations. He had previously called the offensive - in which around 1,300 Palestinians died - a "crime against humanity" and demanded Israel's expulsion from the UN.
His stance has shocked Israeli officials - used to considering Turkey as their closest regional ally - but played to the pro-Palestinian sentiments of the overwhelmingly Muslim Turkish public. Mass demonstrations in favour of Hamas have been staged in Istanbul and other cities.
Such sympathies have prompted suggestions that Erdogan's rhetoric has been mainly for domestic political consumption and aimed at wooing voters at forthcoming municipal elections in March. Jewish groups have also voiced fears that the government's fierce anti-Israeli criticism is fuelling antisemitism The row with Peres overshadowed a dispute between the government and the International Montetary Fund that had seen Erdgoan accuse the fund of setting unacceptable conditions, after negotiations were suspended over a proposed loan to help Turkey weather the economic recession.
On arriving at Ataturk airport, he depicted his Davos walk-out in nationalist terms, telling journalists: "This was a matter of the esteem and prestige of my country. I could not have allowed anyone to poison the prestige and in particular the honour of my country."
He also denied his comments were aimed at the Israeli people or Jews in general. A world economic forum spokesman said Peres spoke with Erdogan on the phone after the debate and expressed his respect for Turkey.
However, some observers believe Erdogan has sacrificed Turkish foreign policy, especially Turkey's self-appointed role as a regional mediator.
Before the Gaza hostilities Turkey had been mediating in negotiations between Israel and Syria. There are also fears that the pro-Israel lobby in the US will back moves to recognise the massacres of Armenians by Ottoman forces in the first world war as genocide, a move Turkey vehemently opposes.
122 Comments so far
Show AllIt seems neither Hamas nor Israel want truth and Israel is in a far better position to suppress it.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304656086&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
"Give me liberty or at least two shoes to hurl"
"Such sympathies have prompted suggestions that Erdogan's rhetoric has been mainly for domestic political consumption and aimed at wooing voters at forthcoming municipal elections in March."---this is known as reporting through the zionist lens.
MSM reporters must follow the zionist rule book or they will be labled antisemite, or self-hating jew. Every article or tv show must give a minimum of equal time to Israel. They do not have to give any Palestinian context. Those who disobey the AIPAC rulebook get the "megaphone" treatment (like Bob Simon)of thousands of emails clogging up their websites or actually have their sites hacked. If employed by a msm outlet they may lose their job.
Just ask Norman Finklestein, who was denied tenure at DePaul U.because of rabid zionist complainer A.Dershowitz. Yes the zionists even dictate to Catholic Universities. Going after thoughtful intellectuals is definately zionist strategy, like we saw in national socialist Germany of the 30's & 40's.
Israel has just recruited hundreds of bi-lingual bloggers to comment on web sites that criticize Israeli warmongering aggression, land & property confiscation and ethnic cleansing. Israel is shocked that their latest rampage in Gaza has garnered so much criticism, they are accustomed to impunity and immunity.
Their reaction is not to change their actions but to run a Madison Avenue style advertising/propaganda campaign. They do not intend to quit and they don't want
peace, they have rejected every peace plan offered from the Arab League, Road Map, Oslo, Taba, etc. etc. etc.
All those reparations from Germany & actual holocaust survivors are lucky to receive a $20 (or is it sheckles?) monthly check. Most true survivors in Israel live in poverty and are only trotted out at propaganda time.
The Turkish official joins a growing list of critics who dare to speak the truth to powerful Israel. Israel is a pariah among the world's nations.
Actually, if you read Finkelstein, you find that the reason he didn't get tenure from a catholic university, Dershowitz (puke) not withstanding, is because of catholocism's internal issues against liberation theology. And Finkelstein represents a jewish liberation theology regarding the palestinians.
Liberation is not something the catholic church cares for, especially soul wise and women's bodies wise. They don't like it in 'latin american' where they have spent 500 years pillaging and oppressing and murdering the native people. Or as Papa Benedict said last year, "The natives were waiing for the missionaries to tell them about Jesus. They just didn't realize it at the time." He also said that the western europeans didn't impose their culture on anyone in south america. Chavez got really pissed off and spoke out against him and said he is going to convert.
So, please, let's stay in factual mode and be aware of what the people we speak about are actually saying about their own personal realities. They should know best. And i saw him speak last year when the tenure issue came up.
I am an equal opportunity opposer of organized religionism. And no one has the catholic church, 2,000 years of global empire and one of the wealthiest governments in history beat as far as the damage it has done to minds and bodies throughout the planet. And they are still at it, as they recently voted against the lifting of the criminalization of homosexuality globally, in the U.N. (along with the u.s.) Oh, and no abortion for girls who are raped as acts of genocide in Darfur, or anywhere for that matter. They boycotted amnesty international for helping girls who are being raped and abused. Not to mention no condems for HIV sufferers and being the primary cause of aids spreading throughout Africa. Talk about your genocide.
Sorry for the rave, but it makes me sick!!
Peacein.
peace.
Ruby -------- good for me ------ I sensed arerotten was a professional blogging propagandist before I read your 5:09 posting -------- and I told him so----- Thanks -------------- Peace
he should have bitch slapped peres with his shoe and then wiped his ass on ignatief's nose
cheers, b
Finally that rabid Jew Lanny Davis (formerly in the Clinton Admin)exposed his hatred of all mid-easterners except Israel by appearing on C-Span this Saturday morning. He was mouthing the same talking points as the zionists on this site: 8,000 rockets fired by Hamas; Iran funnels weapons (he doesn't say America supplies Israel with weaponry); Israel has "special" relationship with the US but doesn't explain what that is; the same old bullshit. By the way we learned today that he is the prime spokesman for "The Israel Project" whatever that is? Why isn't he sponsoring an American Project? Isn't he American?
Sorry, i swore off the venom and disinterst in peace on these posts which are a front to ust to keep the cycle of hate going. So be it. However, i happened to see Lanny while watching c-span while working out at the gym today and he really pissed me off.
Jonah, terms like 'rabid jew' undermine your credibility however. Perhaps you are quite young and don't realize that you sound like a kkk throwback. But hatespeach tells me that you are more intersted in spreading venon than in rational solutions. So be it, it is a free country (not). But it does speak volumes about who you are as a human being. Perhaps you can explain what a rapib jew means, as opposed to a rapid cathiolic that believes homosexuality needs to be criminalized? And women can't control their bodies, even it if kills them....Perhaps women aren't people you care too much about?
My guess, and i could be wrong, is that you support the NRA. Libertarians, gotta love em...
Jonah, Good Morning.
Google 'The Israel Project 600' The "project" is planning to run SIX HUNDRED T.V ads in the U.S. extolling the virtues of 'Bombing Iran'.
This is part of an upcoming Israel-In-America Propaganda campaign to bring more War to the ME-and again have the U.S. fight Israel's war, again have U.S. soldiers die for a Greater Israel.
Lanny Davis is a Senior Advisor to this 'Project'.
WHY is a foreign country allowed to give money to our politicians, Lobby DC for war, propagandize our air-waves and overtly attempt to influence U.S. military deployment?
Would it be okay for Canada to do this? Syria? Any, ANY other entity?
No-we are monogamous. azjoe.
Pan
So strange deja vu , ? I was thinking today a split second thought ?? where have the Turks bee, has the U.S. and Israel made Eunuchs of them,at least a peep for their fellow human beings OR is it FLUSH THESE PALESTINIANS down the Toilet Buddy up and get into European Union ONLYEEEE if you are nice .
But indeed they do have at least one voice and maybe their silence like 60 minutes has a price and silence will follow and the palestinians made into whores will give their labor to build fine homes for Israeli JEWS ( not all israeli`s only Jewish Israel`s) and take more of the land by deception. It`s like suicide by their own hand [resist and we bomb you] did you read Perez`s Clueless Bush Like response ??? Dah why do they hate us dah dah there not dead from starvation Dah and I had thought Perez had a brain.
Justice and Liberty for ALL
ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
There is a far easier thing to do to stop the rockets "End The Occupation". I always wonder why do people start debating this rockets problem as if the Palestinians just woke up one morning and decided to shed hell on their very peaceful cooperative neighbors. The solution is very easy: Get the hell out of all the land you occupied in 1967, allow people to return to their lands (according to international law), and allow a viable Palestinian state.
Allowing the state of Israel to exist is a compromise that the Palestinians would give so don't ask them for more, After all Israel exists on their land, so please stop debating the rockets, any people of dignity who have gone through what the Palestinians have endured would do the same and more.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/962876.html
This should upset a lot of Turks, Iraqi's and the entire world. Israel hopes to colonize Iraq!!! So now we know why we sacrificed all those american troops; it wasn't for WMD, it was for Israeli expansion.
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4301.shtml
We better fight them now then later.
The war with Iraq was all about Israel, much more so than oil. It was their way of saying "you don't f@#k with Israel" to Saddam who was supporting the suicide bombers. The Christian Evangelists also backed it because Jesus ain't coming back till Israel gets all it's ancient land back and our corporations were more than happy to go along for the ride to benefit from the spoils of war. Just do some research on who was advising the administration at time: Perelman, Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrahms, Kristol and more. Zionists, every last one.
Thanks, I was just about to post this same link to Wayne Madsen's article on Online Journal when I noticed your link. This is a "must read" to further clarify the nature of the Israeli zionists as well as the complicity of U.S. Christian zionists mucking around in Iraq with the idea of a "Greater Israel" in mind.
What Erdogan did seemed like a miracle. Very inspiring to me, very hopeful coming from the last place one would expect it and yet neither did I expect it to come from America.
What happens when snowflakes stick together?...............friends come together and have snow ball fights. :)
Leea
nice comment Leeea
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.", Albert Einstein. (Ed note: white phosphorous, dense metal super weapons, nuclear stick-up, missile defense, bailouts and propaganda!!!!!)
Agreed, fakedemocracy.
Having perused most of the earlier discussion, particularly posts of arnonrot, WTF, and Sanctuary, in my opinion discussing the merits of missile/rocket defense systems or defending the annihilation of the civilian population of Gaza is irrelevent to the pages of Common Dreams.
There must be another website where people discuss these things and think that missile defense systems and genocide are defensible.
Better to keep our eyes on Dr. King and promote love, respect, justice, peace. The other day a friend recommended, The Search for a Nonviolent Future, by Michael Nagler, and I just started reading it. It looks very promising so far.
You have missed my main purpose and my tenacity in pursuing a technical/economic/scientific argument.
The general argument from Israel is that they have the right to defend themselves and that they have no choice but to retaliate in the manner they have and that any country would act as they have. I have proven this false.
Opinions and polemic have no absolute proofs in arguments. However I have proven technically that for a far lesser sum of money than any invasion the entire border with Gaza could be protected from missiles and mortars and at no cost to human life or infrastructure damage on either side. Is that not worth something? With technology that exists and has been available for some time. Israel then did and does have this option to defend itself against Hamas rockets or other missiles and yet they rejected it -even though the cost is comparatively miniscule and would even be functional and useful in individual increments of $15 million for each independent system. Not only that but the systems would provide future protection too.
I have proved this conclusively using readily available data and I have given references.
I can only surmise that Israel then rejected it for the revenge/election vote option and/or the incremental and inexorable crushing of Palestinians. They need the rockets to justify their ulterior motives. Note also that they are willing to not even defend their own people to further this end.
wc652 -------- Thats what I was thinking -------- why am I argueing with a propagandist defending war crimes and ethnic cleansing ---------- no matter what any nation has suffered there is no legal or moral rational for war crimes.
First Ahmadinejad, now Erdogan . . .
How dare those wacky world leaders have a conscience! Why can't they follow the party line like American leaders? Sheesh!
Just keep it up, Mr. Ignatius! The World Economic Forum is a collection of representatives of world corporate capitalism, meeting to decide how to carve up and plunder the world's resources. The more you, Mr. Ignatius, silence any dissent, the less credibility this rotten institution has, even with potential allies.
WTF,
Israel doesn't have borders, and won't till they kill all in Palestine and steal the rest of the country.
Good on Erdogan. I only wish it had been Obama who stood up to Israel. But, maybe progress must grow in small increments. Perhaps, Obama's appearance on Arab media helped to embolden Erdogan.
As it stands the US government remains the chief accomplice in Israeli war crimes. Wise and loving Jews around the world realize the US-enabled atrocious treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli Government gives rise to an ever-growing anti-semitism.(though, Israeli itself practices anti-semitism, since Palestians are technically semites.)
Nice and succinct post. We must speak out forcefully to Obama, in the streets of America, now. Today, in my little hometown, we had a tiny vigil for peace and justice. Every one of us must know that one at a time we are a superpower of sane citizens of the planet who are sick and tired of the squandering of lives and our national treasury in pursuit of our twisted and cruel foreign policy. We will no longer tolerate the plundering of the planet and all it's inhabitants for corporate profit and military adventure as an expression of power.
"Obama's appearance on Arab media helped to embolden Erdogan"
That's such a naive statement. Bush was on Arab media often and on the same channel that Obama was. The channel that Obama chose indicates that he has no clue. He chose AlArabbiya a Saudi royal family owned channel that's pro-US where he'll get easy questions. In the eyes of the Arabs AlArabbiya has no credibility and is the mouthpiece of the corrupt Saudi royal family and its protector, the USA.
I would recommend that everyone read:
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2009/01/bushama-speaks-pitfalls-of-economism.html
More leaders need to speak up and condemn Israel. Hopefully the movement will grow, become more vociferous.
Israel is a rogue nation and the USA which arms and supports it, is too. Both these nations must be knocked off their perches, brought down to earth.
They are a danger to themselves and the rest of the world.
www.dangerouscreation.com
It is worth noting that it is not only Israeli's who play the you are anti- card. I have often been accused of being anti-american, when in reality I was merely anti then US current policy. The you are anti- card permit the asserter to stand behind the rightness of a position, without requiring they engage in any real discussion of a position, while painting the one who question their governments actions as the aggressor, and they the wronged victim of any such aggression. The most elequant speech opposing Israel's action in Gaza, was arguably made by a Jew. If one applauds such a speech, once can hardly be anti-semitic, can one.
Yeah no one can criticize Israel anymore or their lies or the games they play with humanity. What I would like to know is why the pro-Israeli lobby in the US hasn't pushed for recognition of the Armenian Genocide already? Isn't this a matter of principle and not self-interested tactics?
Yes, I agree Mr Erdogan was very brave and courageous for standing up to Israel and condemning its brutal treatment of Palestinians. Then again, it was the Prime Minister of Turkey - a country with traditionally cordial relations with Israel that was best placed to challenge Israel because of the two countries long standing ties, rather than some other Muslim or Arab state, most of whom do not maintain diplomatic ties with Israel.
I feel Turkey has the right balance - they have long standing ties with Israel and have good relations with Israeli people, but are unafraid to criticize Israel when it does something bad.
PC Smith
arnonrot,
If Mexico launched missiles at S. California, we would attack Canada.
probably
cheers, b
One of the very few allies in the area and Israel manages to lose it! It may not have been according to etiquette, but Erdogan was right; is it because of the Americans that none of the European nations seem to care about the Palestinians and stand by while Isreal shits on international treaties?
I wish the press would stop using the formula anti-____ any time someone has a disagreement with ___ country's specific behaviors.
For example, Chavez is routinely described as anti-American instead of outlining criticisms that he might have.
You never hear that the U.S. is anti-Venezuelan, anti-Iranian, or anti-Afghan, or anti-Iraqi because it would be too absurd (to American readers).
You know, you are right. I do not know why they refer to Chavez as anti American. He helped the people in New Orleans after Katrina and donates cheap oil to poor American families. He is a critic of Bush and co, but that is hardly a criteria for anti Americanism, as by that token, most Americans are too.
Chavez (as well as Castro) offered to help Katrina victims but was turned away by the Bush "HeckuvajobBrownie" Administration.
good point
like chomsky says - for america and throw mini-me israel - if we do it it is "good"
if they do it it is terrorism
cheers, b
Well, there's one less ally. Keep it up, Israel.
"Peres had earlier made an impassioned defence of Israeli actions in Gaza, asking Erdogan: "What would you do if you were to have in Istanbul every night a hundred rockets?"
Of all the problems in the world the technical ones are sometimes the easiest to solve.
What would I do? It's a narrow border and I would install a series of radar guided gatling guns similar to those found on ships to shred incoming missiles. They have been around since the early seventies.
If Egypt has the Phalanx system then Israel could certainly get it. See below for an existing truck based system that Israel is yet again considering- Heading 4 :
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Phalanx_CIWS
Israel is always about to get or develop one of these systems but somehow they never seem to get it up and running -it's always coming in a few years -this has gone on for years and years. As above, there are land based systems in operation, mounted on tanks and all over the place. There were radar directed guns in WWII over 60 years ago, for goodness sake.
The reason they are not in place is Israel's desire to keep conflict going for which it needs to be seen as the poor victim. Thus the need to keep a steady flow of pre-WWII technology, militarily insignificant, homemade rockets incoming. The fear they create is necessary; the better to manipulate opinion domestically and worldwide.
Does Israel think that everyone else just fell off the back of a turnip truck?
Excuse me, but could you be insinuating that Israel really doesn't want peace? Stop confusing us with the facts.
Sanctuary ------ The rocklets are a distraction. This killing of 1,500 Gazans has its recent roots in the evolution of the most recent ceasefire honored by Hamas but not israel. After the June'08 ceasefire, israel was unable to negotiate, on israels terms, the return of one soldier who had been kidnapped before the ceasefire. Then isreal committed an Act of War and a War Crime (collective punishment) by blockading Gaza. After the blockade unknown freedom fighters fired a total of ten rocklets into israel. Then israel invaded and killed six Palestinian. Then and only then were many rocklets launched killing one israel prior to the Gazan Holocaust.
israelis have killed 500,000 Palestinians, stolen 85% of their land,displaced 3 million Palestinians and claim the death of 25 israelis over eight years is the problem.
> israelis have killed 500,000 Palestinians.
Where did you come up with this ridiculous number? Present one credible source that claims anything remotely similar.
arnonrot is correct, but you have a terrific suggestion.
Phalanx is not a Gatling gun (too slow, too prone to jamming), and is almost infinitely more complex. And the technology has only been around since the 1970s. It takes a little more than radar to accurately track an incoming missile traveling at M2 straight towards you.
The US will happily export Phalanx, and it is used on British warships. It was used with great success during the Falkland Crisis. I am surprised that Israel has not picked it up as a part of their annual $2B handout from US taxpayers.
Maybe Israel does not want to defend it's borders? Do I hear False Flag?
Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in their moccasins - Native American proverb.
BS.
Phalanx is a system designed to protect ships from missiles. It's an expensive technology that hasen't been around from WWII, as you claim, and is not fail-proof. Nevertheless Israel is apparently planning to test this system. But it is much easier to protect a single ship or a particular site on ground than to protect the whole area targeted by rockets from Gaza, or even a single town.
If mexico would fire rockets at southern california, do you think that the US would deploy hundreds of Phalanx systems? Or would the US retaliate?
Stupid analogy.
Rubbish. Rubbish. Rubbish. Binary logic again and you have deliberately misread my post. I didn't say the Phalanx system had been around since WWII, did I? I said that it and similar systems had been around since the seventies.
Fact: Radar directed guns have been around since WWII.
Fact: the Phalanx system was evaluated in 1973 and went into production in 1978
"the first system was offered to the U.S. Navy for evaluation on USS King (DDG-41) in 1973." -quote from http://wapedia.mobi/en/Phalanx_CIWS
Fact: the cost of these systems is substantially less than the assaults on Gaza and Lebanon and has on-going defensive benefits.
Fact: Many other countries have similar systems. Why? Because they work.
Fact: No system is fail-proof. Does it mean that because it is only 99% effective you can't use it? What's your point? Has the latest invasion stopped all future rocket firings into Israel?
Fact: "As a defensive weapon, the (Phalanx)Close In Weapons System (CIWS) has special significance for Navy ships and their crews. Battle tested by the British during the Falkand War in the early 1980's, CIWS proved remarkably effective -
reference: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/mk-15.htm
Fact: You don't need to protect an entire area. Unguided rockets landing in non-inhabited areas are a nuisance at best. Two of the tank mounted systems per town should do the trick. I am not a weapons aficionado but I can read spec. charts. Measure the border or count the towns and work out the ranges and cost of these systems. They can be moved around to hotspots and the benefit starts with the very first unit deployed.
Your argument regarding Mexico firing rockets at California fails for several reasons, not the least of which is that Mexico has no on-going military conflict with California and is not imprisoned like Gaza and under siege. But to answer your question the USA might do both and in the process of bombing civilians in Mexico City would create a legacy of hate, create legions of extremists and future "terrorists" and "insurgents". See the problem?
Without addressing the root causes of conflict there is never peace.
> Fact: Many other countries have similar systems. Why? Because they work.
Could you please provide me with one example of a country whose civilian population is bombarded by rockets and mortars, and whose solution to the problem is the Phalanx system or anything similar?
Arnonrot: What an utterly stupid question. A logical fallacy if ever there was one. Your implication with that question being that unless another country has unguided rockets falling on a civilian population and uses a missile shredding system to defend itself that this system can't possibly work for Israel?
An independent missile shredding system has no knowledge of where it is placed, they have a range of at least a mile and Gaza is about 25 miles long. Do the math.
Not a stupid question at all. As far as I read Israel is examining the Phalanx system but this is hardly a solution to the rocket problem. As noted by some other readers here, the number of deaths in Israel from the rocket attacks has been relatively small in the past eight years, despite the thousands of rockets and mortars. This is because the south of Israel is sparsely populated, and the rockets are imprecise. But the rocket attacks still completely disrupt life in southern Israel, putting about a million Israelis in shelters. The phalanx system would not change that situation, if Hamas kept firing at the rate of ~10 rockets and mortars per day from just before the Israeli operation. Furthermore, Hamas was working hard to extend the number, range, and precision of their weapons. The fact is that at the end of the 6 month cease fire with Israel, they already had rockets that could reach Beer Sheba and Ashkelon, 30 miles from Tel-Aviv, supplied by Iran. If Israel had continued to restrain itself, within a relatively short while a much larger area in Israel would have been targeted. This would cause complete disruption of life in Israel, and also a much higher "success rate" of Hamas in killing Israeli civilians. In such a situation Israel would have been forced to completely take over the Gaza strip, or deliberately target palestinian civilians in retaliation.
Rubbish again and this is my last post for today as I am tiring of your sophistry and non sequiturs.
Arnonrot, according to you:
A system that stops rockets at the border will still disrupt Israeli life completely. The same system won't stop rockets with a longer range or greater precision.
Attacking Gaza has stopped and will continue to stop rockets being fired at Israel.
If Israel hadn't attacked Gaza it would be forced to target civilians.
I'll let others respond to your illogical rambling. Good night.
Sanctuary ------- I think arerotten is a professional zionist propagandist and that is why you find it so frustrating.
"Give me liberty or at least two shoes to hurl"
@Glenn Ford: a small criticism of your 9:42 a.m. post, Shalit was a French citizen who came to Israel to kill Arabs. He joined the Israeli army, did training and wore their uniform. When he trespassed in Gaza he was captured by Palestinian resistance and he is a POW.
You don't "kidnap" armed soldiers. This is Israeli spin. Repeat kidnapped often enough & it sticks in peoples' brains.
Did you know that USA citizens are permitted to join the Israeli army & post their war photos on Facebook?
Can you imagine a young USA Muslim going to Iraq, Syria, Iran or any other country that our gov. is hostile to, showing off in their uniforms on Facebook?
Look what happened to John Walker Lindh, we had no war with Afghanistan when he went to study Islam & got caught up with the Taliban.
As for Arnonot: Israel has killed so many more than 5,000 Palestinians. There is a report put out every year by Mifta I believe, that lists every murder that Israel commits. You could also check WRMEA.com for accurate reporting.
WTF: You nailed it, there were reports that Israeli soldiers ignored launching areas, they either want the rockets to continue for propaganda or these are indeed false flag ops.
I just looked at the google map page today, Israel has sophisticated surveilence systems and many coerced informers, so I have to conclude that these toy rockets are necessary for zionist strategy of land grabs and murder - make that genocide.
Hooray for the Turkish leader. He joins Munthazar the shoe hurler, the Walt & Meirshiener book on AIPAC, & US ignoring their own interests for their rogue client state, Bob Siimon on 60min.,Richard Falk,the UN raporteur, Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter, Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales and Ahmadinijad of Iran in breaking the silence on Israeli aggression & brutal occupation.
The veil is lifting, the tide is turning and zionism days are numbered, the truth insists on being heard. Capitalism is crumbling and imperialism is a repulsive obscenity to civilized people. The apartheid state of Israel will become a minor footnote of middle east history.
All things must pass. Justice for Palestine.
Thanks Ruby --------- POW correct -------- arerotten was disputing my rough since 1920 figure of 500,000. Thanks for the reference sites --------- what do you believe is the correct rough figure? -------- Thanks ---------- Peace ---------
Where do the above links show that Israel has killed 500,000 palestinians? The number has nothing to do with reality. More than 5000, yes. But how did you reach 500,000? I wonder if you are completely clueless or are deliberately lying.
"I wonder if you are completely clueless or are deliberately lying"
¿ I wonder if you're 'hoisted by your own petard' ?
It's funny how you rationalize to yourself anything that doesn't agree with your views. There are 7 million Israelis who have strong views about what is going on, and are just as passionate about expressing their views as you are. I know this will come as a shock to you, but there are also strong supporters of Israel outside of Israel.
Shock? Our Vichy congress is your stongest supporter you would be vapor if not for sucking on the Beasts tits. I accept disagreement. Your writing strikes me as professional propaganda the disagreement is irrelevant.
While I have the attention of a professional War Crimes propagandist; how is it that Irgun and Stern were slaughtering unarmed Palestinians in order to steal their land at about the same time millions of Jews were being exterminated with negligible resistance? ---------Thanks --------- Peace ----------------
This seems to be difficult for you so let me explain.
The Phalanx system is not fail-proof. In ideal conditions it has about %70 success rate. Assuming that Israel could cover all towns in the Negev with Phalanx (which I doubt), and if Hamas launched 10 rockets a day there would still be 3 rockets hitting the ground every day. This means that the entire population of southern Israel would still be in shelters, even with the Phalanx system installed.
If Hamas had succeeded in increasing the range of their rockets to the densely populated area of Tel-Aviv, things would get much worse, both for Israel and for the Palestinians.
When attacked by rockets, any country would retaliate.
Good night.
Wrong! You have conveniently forgotten the term "defence in depth". I don't know where you got the 70% at best success rate (please give your reference) for the Phalanx but this is not the only system and any failure is likely to be either the system not being switched on or due to evasive or counter measures from sophisticated missiles. Unguided home made rockets don't fall into the sophisticated category. But for arguments sake let's use your suspiciously low 7 out of 10 getting wacked from my 25 or so systems along the 25 mile border. 3 get through so we have a second set of systems so now 2.1 get wacked leaving .9 which we will round up to 1. But where is it headed? Open fields? We won't worry about that for now but we will put a third system on the sides of towns facing Gaza. We will even back that up with expensive but very accurate missile defence systems. The US arms industry will be only too happy to provide them and the US taxpayer will cough up the greenbacks. Problem solved.
Funny that the US seems to need missile defence next to Russia to combat those non-existent ICBMs from Iran but Israel, that seems to think everyone is out to annihalate it -especially Iran, doesn't have any such defensive system.
Or maybe they do but they need the insignificant (militarily) home made rockets coming in so that they can maintain their "poor us" stance while steadily annihalating or driving out Palestinians and taking over their land?
I discovered this since my last post. Please comment:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/962876.html
For the %70 percent success rate, here are several links.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/me_israel0382_07_30.asp
http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/article/275
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/cram.htm
As explained in the third link, which quotes a %60-%70 success rate, use of Phalanx in an Urban area can also cause civilian casualties, even if Phalanx successfully intercepts the rocket/mortar, due to collateral damage.
Israel IS considering using this system. By the way, during the 1990 war in Iraq, Israel used the Patriot system to protect from Scud missiles launched from Iraq. That system turned out to be quite ineffective, and caused quite a lot of collateral damage. There are many differences between protection from Scud missiles and the Qasam rockets, the Phalanx system may be more effective, but my point is that Israel has used missile protection systems before.
Mr. Melman is quoting some experts. Others think differently. But even Mr. Melman says that the Phalanx system cannot cover Ashkelon, which the Hamas has started to target with their longer range rockets. Likewise for Beer Sheba, and for Tel-Aviv and its surrounding cities, which Hamas would have been targeting within a short time if the arming of Hamas by Iran had continued without interruption.
The US is planning to deploy an anti-ICBM system in Europe. But if Iran attacks Europe with ICBMs, do you have any doubt that the US and NATO would attack Iran in retaliation, and attempt to destroy their launching capabilities?
While the Phalanx system could perhaps help in the south of Israel, Hamas was quickly approaching a capability to fire longer range missiles for which the Phalanx system would not be a solution at all, as I explained earlier. Regardless of the possibility of using the Phalanx, no country would accept rocket launches on its civilian population without retaliating.
This discussion is an attempt to divert attention from the main issue, that Hamas attacked Israel's civilian population with rockets.
Thank you for the links and from those links the suggested success rate falls within 60-80% not 60-70% as you maintain. Also from the 2nd link Jewish Policy Centre here are some quotes:
"Centurion is basically the Phalanx naval gun system with new software... uses high explosive 20mm shells, that detonate near the target, spraying it with fragments. By the time these fragments reach the ground, they are generally too small and slow to injure anyone. At least that's been the experience in Iraq."
That knocks out your argument about civilian collateral damage - but is academic anyway for the border units since they are aimed at Gaza, so why on earth would that bother you?
"A Mobile Centurion system (land version of Phalanx), which can cover an area about four kilometers wide, costs $15 million. The manufacturer will be turning out four a month" written July 2008.
So 10 units at $150 million could cover the entire border of gaza and more telling on a 1km laser system it notes "The short range of the laser Centurion is not a problem, because there are only a few places (small towns) in southern Israel that need to be protected from most Hamas rockets"
That wrecks your argument that the entire system useless if anything gets through - a seriously weak argument since any reduction in carnage (especially Israelis) ought to be a good thing from the Israeli point of view.
Your bit on Patriot missiles 18 years ago is a distraction, they were absolute duds with useless guidance and timing - Israel got their experts in there to modify the hardware and software so that it actually functioned. Any of the above systems could also be improved for the actual theatre. You have had decades to do this but political resistance was always there as demonstrated by the Haaretz article "A well concealed gun" http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/962876.html
I note you had no comment on this. Very suspicious.
You stated but did not explain why longer range missiles were impervious to Phalanx or Centurion. I can think of only one reason and that is that if they were fired so far back and were then too high to be hit. I think this unlikely but certainly a longer range ammo could be used and the laser system would have no problem at all.
"This discussion is an attempt to divert attention from the main issue, that Hamas attacked Israel's civilian population with rockets"
That is both pompous and untrue; the main issue is far deeper than Hamas firing rockets at Israel, as just about everyone on this board will agree.
Would you care to comment below on the 5 questions on this CD piece, particularly Question 1 and question 5?
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/27
Mitchell's Challenge: After Gaza, Five Questions about Palestinian and Israeli Realities
This discussion is becoming repetitive so I'll make two short comments and move on to your question about Sandy Tolan's article.
I don't know whether there is a technical issue with the effectiveness of Phalanx with longer range missiles. But, as Mr. Melman notes, such a system cannot be used to protect a large densely populated area such as the city of Ashkelon or the urban metropolitan area of Tel-Aviv, which are the targets of the longer ranged missiles. This is because of the area that needs to be covered, and also because of the collateral damage from fallout which, in a city, will usually land within the populated area. The third link seems to me to be the more credible in this respect.
I won't repeat my other arguments because this is becoming tedious. The bottom line is that Hamas is attacking Israel's civilian population, and Israel is retaliating to that. No other country would act differently.
Now to the article. Mr. Tolan raises, in my opinion, important and difficult questions. I only wish the article would have raised several other questions as well, in order to paint a correct picture of the forces opposing a peaceful solution on both sides of the conflict. An honest discussion would also acknowledge all the reasons for which the west bank became fragmented and surrounded by a wall. But I'll focus on the Israeli side.
I believe that the settlements are a huge obstacle towards peace. I cannot envision a two-state solution without dismantling the vast majority of them, and without a palestinian share in Jerusalem. Specific issues, such as the city of Ariel (question #2) are a problem, but not an unsolvable one. I think that a majority of Israelis will accept a solution that will involve a dismantling of the settlements, if they are convinced that this will bring an end to the conflict and will ensure security to both sides. A large part of the Israeli leadership realizes all the above.
The withdrawal from Gaza demonstrated that Israel can dismantle settlements and withstand the shock that this creates internally. Withdrawal from the west bank will create much more internal turmoil, possibly on the verge of a civil war, but I believe that it is possible. Will such a solution be accepted by the palestinian side? and will the security concerns of both sides be met? These, in my opinion, are more difficult questions. Browse through the comments posted in this forum, and you'll see many that will accept nothing but the annihilation of Israel, and this reflects the viewpoint of many, many palestinians.
I think that every rational person on both sides of the conflict understands what are the reasonable parameters for a two-state solution. There are, however, strong forces on both sides of the conflict whose priority is not peace or the present welfare of their people. For these people religiously driven ideology or a subjective sense of absolute justice are more important than anything, and they will reject a compromise even if this means that many generations will endure a murderous, bloody conflict. This is the philosophy of the ideological core of Israeli settlers and, without stretching the analogy too much, this is also the philosophy of Hamas. Hamas leaders, political and religious, cannot state this more clearly than they do, you just need to listen honestly to what they say to their people. For this reason I doubt very much that Hamas will ever play a constructive role in the peace process.
Going back to question 5, I don't know if a two state solution is viable. I only know that every other possibility will involve a terrible continuation of violence, whereas the two state solution has at least the hope of ending it. Anyone who wishes to see this happen should be honest to himself about the compromises involved, and then separate himself (or herself) from those who will never accept these compromises.
Yossi Melman may be the military affairs correspondent for Haaretz but he doesn't totally understand (I don't either) the Phalanx/Centurion systems when he makes statements like "The Phalanx is a radar-guided weapon that fires as many as 6,000 rounds per minute, creating a cloud of steel against which the missile crashes". Intriguingly, it actually fires very short bursts which it then actually tracks with its radar to see if the intercept is correct and if not it then self-corrects. There's no cloud of steel and whereas it may fire at 100/second it doesn't carry anywhere close to 6000 rounds.
My theory still stands; two rows of 10 Centurions set a few miles apart to not interfere with each other and with self-destruct explosive rounds would eliminate the threat at the entire Gaza border long before any towns/cities and with little or no collateral damage from spent shells. A third laser system around towns would form total redundant defence in depth and have zero collateral damage.
The first two rows would only cost $300 million. I have been unable to get figures for the laser system.
"Hamas is attacking Israel's civilian population, and Israel is retaliating to that. No other country would act differently"
I can't speak for every country but I can assure you that no European country or Canada would drop white phosphorus on a city nor respond in such a vicious manner to a civilian population. Guaranteed.
Your response to Mr. Tolan's article though is refreshingly unexpected and I need more depth than I currently possess to make a meaningful response so I will defer comment except to say that I can agree on several points.
I will point out that I have seen Palestinian refugee camps up close and over a period of several years. It is an historical certainty that people under these conditions will rebel, anyone would. Whereas there are moderates and extremists on both sides I think moderates are currently being sidelined with the end result that more moderates become extremists. That helps nobody in the long term.
Having witnessed Arabs and Jews living without conflict I think you overstate the "annihilation of Israel" theme. Just as the Soviet Union was "annihilated" without bloodshed I think many here would like to see the end of the state of Israel in its current form but few here would want to annihilate Jews. Aside from being totally wrong it would be totally hypocritical.
> I can't speak for every country but I can assure you
> that no European country or Canada would drop
> white phosphorus on a city nor respond in such a
> vicious manner to a civilian population. Guaranteed.
I think that you are absolutely wrong about the response of a European country. No European country, as far as I know, has faced an attack on their civilians since world war 2, and let's not go into world war 2 to set an example for anything.
Just to make things clear, I think that the death of civilians is terrible, in Gaza too. But let's not be hypocritical.
How many Iraqi civilians did Britain kill? How many civilians were killed by NATO air strikes in Kosovo? Let me remind you that Iraq and the federal republic of Yugoslavia did not attack a single NATO country. How many civilians did France kill in the Algerian war (in the hundreds of thousands)?
If we stretch the definition of Europe to include Russia, what about the Chechen wars? There are about 1.1 Chechens, fewer than the population of Gaza. An estimate of about 100,000 Chechens killed in the first Chechen war (1994-1996), of which most were civilians. About 25,000 more civilians killed in the second one (1999). I don't remember talks about genocide when all this happened (and to make things clear again, I'm certainly not justifying the actions of Russia in Chechnya, or the actions of France in Algiers. And I think that civilian losses are always terrible.)
Let's move on to something more useful. Earlier you mentioned: "Mr. Tolan raises, in my opinion, important and difficult questions. I only wish the article would have raised several other questions as well"
Can you please outline some of those questions you feel important?
-
If the USA was still stealing Mexican land like Israel is doing to Palestine, maybe.
But your analogy is false because you ignore all the reality of the conflict.
The rockets are just a last ditch of armed resistance to Israel's continued Blockade, Bombings of Women and Children.
When some Fatah militants, not Hamas blew up an Israel military patrol a few days ago which is legal in War, Israel responded by killing more Children in Gaza...
If Israel does not want to live in the Sea they better stop asking for it.
Shalom
Yes, actually they do.
Interesting to note an article was called, "Fueling the Cycle of Hate" a couple days ago on CD (among other places). I think the implications of the title needs to be taken seriously and considered as a universal truth.
So many posts, regardless of the 'side' someone is on, seem not to reflect an understanding of that concept. And this is exactly why history repeats itself, or rhymes, which ever way you wish to see it.
I haven't seen much in the way of peacemaking potential by way of disrespectful discourse and hatespeech from all directions here lately. It seems to me it is time to take an honest look in the collective mirror. Because i don't see much hope for 'change we can believe in' coming from obama (i never did) or from many of the comments i've been reading.
It seems the rhetoric in many cases reflects the very attitudes that people are railing against.
Namaste
Readytotransform -------- Totally correct about peacemaking and civility. Yet there is a time to ignore civility and verbally bare knuckle. The colonial British in Asia is an analogy in regards to the civility that the zionist apologists think is proper. When you time your massacres so as not to disturb your tea or cricket match and file grammatically correct dispatches describing your slaughter; then I will rightfully upset your teacup, steal your wicket and burn your dispatches.
When ones goal is, no matter what, to defend what viscerally repels all empathetic humans, the maintenace of civility is irrelevant.
Valueing Civility above Humanity is Insanity
glenn, i should say the human respect, rather than civility (i dont' believe i see that i used that term), would have been a better way to put it. And if we don't have that much, it is game over on planet earth. I think that was Jesus message.
Civility sounds too british and mannerly. Respect is something else again. I think that what i have been seeing on these posts is more concerned with hatred and disrespect than in finding solutions that are viable. So much petty personal nonsense. Bashing each other- it becomes quite narcissistc and self centered. A pissing contest, really.
It is time for the primitives to evolve, in my opinion. I see a lack of humanity in many of these posts, both interpersonally and in pure insulting of people's opinions. As a humanistic psychologist, it is soemthing i try to teach people. You don't have to punch someone in the face to be abusive.
peace.
Isn't that guy Ignatius a neo-con Zionist shill? What the hell was he doing over in Switzerland "moderating"? The entire crowd of delegates should have walked out, but good for Mr. Erdogan. The whole world is getting sick of US/Israel hypocrisy.
tell it like t is bro
cheers, b
I find it particularly telling of the Israeli soul that when valid criticisms are raised of it's conduct, it hauls out the canard of anti-semitism, entirely blind to their own anti-semitic treatment of the Arabs.
Peace now!
Facts
The massacre of Armenians by Ottoman forces was a genocide.
The massacre of millions of Jews by the Nazis was a genocide.
The massacre of thousands of Palestinians by the Israelis is a genocide.
Yeah right. What about 1200 Jews killed by palestinians from 2000-2008?
From the Hamas charter:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
More recently and to the point Hamas has said it will abide by ANY peace agreement that Fatah negotiates and the Palestinian people accept by referendum. It will declare a 50 year truce.
From the late Israeli P.M. Golda Meir: "There's no such thing as a Palestinian".
24 Israeli citizens have been killed by (tens of thousands!) Hamas rocket attacks over the past decade.
More Israelis die from in-grown toe nails.
[The Palestinians] would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls. - Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, New York Times, April 1, 1988
For every quote you pull from Hamas threatening killing zionists, there are 10 quotes uttered by the Israelis.
Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in their moccasins - Native American proverb.
> [The Palestinians] would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the
> boulders and walls. - Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, New York Times,
> April 1, 1988
Only problem is, Shamir never made that statement. Here's the New york times link from 1988, quoting Reuters.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DD1F3DF932A35757C0A96E948260
His grasshopper statement, according to the article, was about rioters, not about "the palestinians" as you quote it. The precise quote is: ''We say to them from the heights of this mountain and from the perspective of thousands of years of history that they are like grasshoppers compared to us.''
He then said, according to the article,
''Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls.'' This is in reference to the fortress from which he made the speech.
Conveniently altered by you, in the typical style of most palestinian propaganda. Hardly a match for the murderous racist violence of Hamas.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1bf_1206527402
And there is no need to go back to 1988 in order to find numerous other examples.
arerotten------ You are a professional propagandist. Right in your quote it says Anybody and other fortresses. We may be stupid USA citizens but were not deluded zionists.
I hope my lack of civility did not insult your devious inhumanity.
Your lack of civility didn't insult me, but it certainly says a lot about you.
> 24 Israeli citizens have been killed by (tens of thousands!) Hamas rocket attacks over
> the past decade.
To be precise, about 8000 rockets and mortars were launched from Gaza, targeting civilians in southern Israel in the past eight years. A million Israelis sitting in shelters. And with the smuggling of weapons into Gaza, courtesy of Iran, the rocket range would have soon reached more densely populated areas in Israel, causing more destruction and death.
Hamas killed hundreds of Israeli civilians in suicide attacks during the second intifada and earlier, during the Oslo process, and wounded thousands. It's not that they don't wish to kill more.
What about the 13 hundred Gazans killed in Gaza this month?
Is there Hatred of the Jews by Arabs and world wide... of course and that is what Israel is fostering more and more.
If you want to count bodies in this World's longest war by Zionists who are not even real Semites but Europeans by heritage, the balance or terror is at least 100 to one in the favor of the Land stealing and Ethnic Cleansing Israel.
Shalom
> the balance or terror is at least 100 to one in the favor of the
> Land stealing and Ethnic Cleansing Israel.
No, it's not. Here's an interesting article putting casualties in the Arab-Israeli conflict in perspective.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4990
From 1950 to now there were about 51,000 casualties in the Arab-Israeli conflict (including all hostilities involving Israel and Arab countries as well as palestinians). 35,000 Arab, 16,000 Israeli.
You seem to be very ignorant about the zionist movement, and about the Jewish population of Israel. About %40 came from the Muslim countries.
I am not talking about an "intresting Article"... I am talking about the facts of the conflict now.
If your article's facts are close to accurate, it just shows that the body counts are getting worse with the Terror growing by Israel.
i am not an expert but I am also not ignorant of the terroists of the Zionist movement who and who thought the Holocaust was Good for Israel and 9/11 was too.
and of the Jews who came from the Muslim countries, how many are in control of the government? Any discrimination there?
Are those 40 percent equally represented in the Government? I doubt it.
For lots of other interesting articles, Google "Zionists offered to help Hitler".
More ignorance and blind hatred.
> and of the Jews who came from the Muslim countries, how many are in control of the government? Any discrimination there?
> Are those 40 percent equally represented in the Government? I doubt it.
Of the 31 ministers in the Israeli government, 13 are from Sephardic origin. Check your facts and check your sources.
More ignorance and blind hatred coming from you that is.
are you seriously presenting Daniel Pipes as a rational party when it comes to Israel-Palestine? If so, then you really have no idea what you are talking about. He's about a right-wing, Zionist, arab-hating reactionary as they come, so I guess he's trustworthy on this subject, huh? NO.
What's important here is the numbers, not Daniel Pipes's views. Jim Glover here claimed that in the Arab-Israeli conflict the ratio of Arabs to Israelis killed is 1:100. That number has nothing to do with reality.
It is also very illuminating to compare the number of Arabs killed in the Arab-Israeli conflict to the number of Arabs killed in Arab-Arab conflicts.
That was Manifest Destiny.