Wanted: Unruly Activists
The first thing the members of Congress did before they heard the testimony of General David Petraeus, the Administration’s new political point man on the war, was to throw the members of Code Pink out of the room. The Code Pinkers are those obnoxious females wearing their eponymously colored T-shirts with end-the-killing slogans on them.
The women of Code Pink are liable to pop up at any solemn public gathering demanding peace at the top of their voices. They are unable to understand that elected officials are better informed and wiser than they are and thus they mistakenly dis people important enough to warrant bodyguards.
During Code Pink’s brief moment in the sun, several Republican members of Congress groused to House Arms Committee Chairman Ike Skelton (D. Mo) about the scandalous trouble-makers. American politicians, who these days are equipped with security details, have come to regard political heckling as a misdemeanor of greater gravity even than making a pass at an undercover cop in a men’s room. Heckling used to be an inseparable part of public debate and, once upon a time, a politician was judged in part by his ability to come through with the kind of humorous riposte that sets audiences to laughing and the hecklers to the sidelines. Lincoln, Churchill and Disraeli were masters at it.
The Code Pinkers are playing what ESPN would call Extreme or X-politics. X-politicians make noise, bust up meetings, chain themselves to furniture, do the big floppola in front of the security personnel and wail like hell when they are dragged off. Most of us are incapable of playing X-politics, but thank God the women of Code Pink are not.
You don’t play X-politics because you want a new school superintendent or a stop sign on your block. You play it when it’s about war, about dying, maiming and mass misery on a scale too large for any mind to encompass. You play it because the war party always has all the drums and all the bugles and all the flags. You play it because somebody has to smash through, be the truth-teller. And it’s not going to be people with normal temperatures and Anglo-Saxon inhibitions.
X-politics is only for the lion-hearted. Samuel Adams played it at the Boston Massacre and the wildest, craziest and yet most essential X-politician in our history was John Brown, Old Potawatamie, who ended dangling from a noose, the North’s most electric abolitionist martyr.
An X-politician does not have to lead an armed insurrection, but he or she must do something that enflames indignation and ignites anger. On a small scale that is what Rev. Lennox Yearwood, Jr did. He’s the man who was gang-tackled by the Capitol cops to keep him out of the hearing room. Put your hands together and give it up for the Reverend as you watch the seven-minute video of his encounter with Capitol Hill’s finest.
MoveOn.org plays its own, somewhat more sedate brand of X-politics. The day before the hearings it kicked war partisans in the shins with a full-page New York Times ad, with a headline that screamed, “General Petraeus or General Betray Us?”. It drove the likes of Orrin Hatch (R. UT) to offering resolutions of condemnation and denunciations of MoveOn.org’s wickedness for suggesting the General cannot be counted to tell the whole truth.
(In the interest of full disclosure, the writer confesses to having sent MoveOn.org a small contribution immediately after having read that ad.)
A newspaper ad alone could not have so convincingly disseminated the thought that Petraeus had moved from being a four-star general to being a four-star Republican politician. For that the ad had to provoke a furious reaction from the war lovers.
The essence of X-politics, whether it’s Cindy Sheehan or Eli Pariser, one of MoveOn.org’s better known people, is to use the other sides’ rage, money and status against itself.
May Code Pink strike again. And again.
Nicholas von Hoffman is the author of A Devil’s Dictionary of Business, now in paperback. He is a Pulitzer Prize losing author of thirteen books, including Citizen Cohn, and a columnist for the New York Observer.
© 2007 The Nation
Happened to just read this over at “The Nation” and thought “The Nation” has redeemed itself. At least until Katha Pollitt starts up with advising Sheehan to know her place again and let Pelosi run the show.
Problem is, Ms Pollitt, Pelosi isn’t running it for the citizens of this country. So, there is no use in condemning the tactics of activists who have to shout to be heard–especially when the criticism only serves that status quo spiralling ever close to the edge.
“You play it because the war party always has all the drums and all the bugles and all the flags. You play it because somebody has to smash through, be the truth-teller. And it’s not going to be people with normal temperatures and Anglo-Saxon inhibitions”
Shout it from the rooftops!
And, my humble thanks.
Impeach Pelosi!
What an image.
American citizens who disagree with policy are not welcome in Congress. In fact they are met by thugs in uniforms and thrown out.
Meanwhile, some lying General with the blood of many thousands of people on his hands, and who turned a blind eye to the theft of millions of dollars, gets the red carpet treatment.
Says an awful lot about Congress and our government these days.
PS… the Nation is aligned with the Democrats. They’ll sometimes act independent, but when push comes to shove around the elections, they’ll always find an excuse to back the pro-war, pro-corporate Democratic candidate. The Nation doesn’t seem nearly as broke as they were back when I subscribed in the early 90’s. I think they found some money somewhere. And mysteriously, this pro-Democrat election alignment seemed to appear at the same time.
That the Nation is going into ’suck-up-to-the-Democrats’ mode this far in advance of the Sheehan-Pelosi general election contest tells me that some Democrats are really concerned about this race.
If after you try petitions, phone calls, emails, letters and the people who you voted for don’t listen then up the ante…make so much noise they have to listen.
I personally hope Cindy unseats Nancy…
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2956422.ece
Petreus thinks he will be the Republican Presidential candidate in 2012 and is maneuvering towards that end.
This means he’s either an idiot, because someone who backs and promotes a policy that 70% of the American people dislike isn’t going to win any elections … or it means he knows the American election system is rigged and that by sucking up to the right people today, then in 2012 the computers will spit out his name as the winner.
Code Pink - where do they get the funding for these shenanigans? The average American isn’t going to get into the same room with Petraeus that easily. While these alleged raise-hell organizations like MoveOn get some attention, they are used and supported by competing and equally problematic power sources. You do something antisocial like punching John Glenn (some years ago) they’ll lock you up for terrorism. So Code Pink gets on the evening news for a modest but socially acceptably mini-heckle during a big old dog and pony show. Yawn.
Meanwhile some keyboard commandos yawn at their computer screen and pooh-pooh those who bear the cost of putting their bodies on the line for everyone else.
Excuse me pal, but you are a weasely little schmuck.
Vern,
Sorry, I missed the last few lines. My fault. Thanks for pointing it out. Mr Von Hoffman, statement retracted.
“Code Pink - where do they get the funding for these shenanigans? The average American isn’t going to get into the same room with Petraeus that easily….”
Yes, they can! As a former DC area resident, I cans assure you that, In spite of all the crap. The public is still allowed in all congressional hearing rooms, congressmans offices and tha capitol gallery. You might have to get in line early, but you are allowed in if any seats are left. Now, I’m not saying your presence in a hearing chamber or your congressmans office will change anything. But, this public misconception that citizens don’t have physical access to the the legislators is dismaying.
That’s why the Rev, Yearwood incident is so alarming - never has a citizen been removed for merely waiting in line to get into the gallery.
as far as code pink, they recieve enough donations to operate a small group house in DC. That’s all.
Excuse me, Vern, but calling someone a ‘weasely little schmuck’ is really nasty.
Note, everyone, that Vern did not get muted for this incredibly vicious attack. So I’m guessing that we have some double standards here. If you’re on the ‘correct’ political side, in this case liberal or so-called progressive, you can make nasty attacks on the ones who ain’t. But if you’re libertarian or right wing and you make such an attack on a liberal you will most likely get muted in a second.
Is this correct?
True, it was nasty.
It was intended to be.
I am disgusted and angry with the sneering disaproval our activists are subjected to–just because they speak out against the staid well-heeled ruling class–who lie decorously through their teeth in the spirit of bipartisanship.
And people wonder why the hell people aren’t out in the streets–when the underlying message is don’t get the hell out of line.
Who the hell needs Karl Rove when we are all too able to set up the talking points to sabotage ourselves.
Now, you were saying? Something about the poor libertarians?
trails_end September 13th, 2007 12:46 pm
Simply some readers don’t read completely or fully understand what you have said…So some dodging of curved balls is required and then maybe let it go….
Rather than your catty little tag team,
you can directly address me if you have a problem.
Well, do you?
and keep in mind–this is a progressive board. We don’t coddle the Right here-just because the MSM and the Democrats do.
trails_end
Not all progressives are “liberals.” You in a sense, are contradicting yourself.
I didn’t say anything about ‘poor libertarians’.
I am a libertarian. A libertarian is not a neo-fascist. The neo-fascists often call themselves libertarian, but they are misusing the term. Many liberals call the neo-fascists libertarian, because they call themselves libertarian.
See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarian
True libertarians are neither left nor right, not in the usual sense of the word.
The thing that was bothering me was the double standards that are being employed on this (and many) websites. If the reverse were happening, and the left-wingers were muted more swiftly than the right, I wouldn’t care for that either.
“AND SO IT GOES”
GARBOTOO, A website or board that would impress me, left, right or neither, would be one that allowed all disucussion no matter how troubling, contrary to the usual, or offensive to some.
We don’t coddle the Right. If your libertarian perspective echoes the free market blather of the corporate class–then you are merely taking issue with some arbitrary label–which isn’t reflecting the fact the views promoted on CD a good part of the time may be in direct conflict with your free market fantasies. In fact, I consider capitalist cheerleaders the very dregs of the worst–and whose free market advocates done dug the hole we are in. Not to mention the greed and fundamental mean-spiritedness of the cult.
Thanks, simonhhh
Not necessarily, trailsend. I have witnessed many progressive board spammed and shat on by libertarian trolls seeking to sidetrack, distract, disrupt sideswipe, sabotage, red-bait, and generally piss on legitimate discussion and then whine when someone calls them on it. It’s like psych-ops or trying to reason with a christian fundamentalist.
Mr. Von Hoffman failed to mention that a Wall Street Journal reporter overheard Ike Skelton say to Duncan Hunter, “That really pisses me off down there, those assholes”, referring to the protesters. This is another slip of the tongue that lets us know what they think of the anti-war crowd, along with Congressman Obey who referred to Tina Richards, the mother of a marine who was headed to Iraq for his 3rd deployment, as an “idiot liberal”. Then there was Pelosi who called the anti-war protesters camped outside her mansion in SF last month “nuts”. So, I guess we know where we stand with the Dems in Congress.
Vern, I know you don’t coddle the right but you do coddle the left.
I don’t want to be coddled and would be pissed if anyone tried to do so.
What you’re saying is a crock of shit..Now watch me get muted.
Capitalism is not bad. State-run capitalism is bad. Like I said yesterday, it sucks and so does communism.
And, Vern, ‘Well, do you..what?’ (What do you mean, ‘Well, do you’?)
First Asset to the Revolution: Sharply Defined Terms. Always use The Oxford English Dictionary (for all English dictionaries derive from its 27 volumes). “LIBERAL”—as in “the liberal arts.” The practice of which meant, how are you going to cultivate yourself once you have filled your needs for food/clothes/shelter etc.? In other words, LIBERALS BELIEVE THAT LIFE IS MORE THAN WORK. If “the average savage” spends 15 hours per week on essential needs, what is our excuse working 40+ hours a week? It’s the cost of “conveniences”? Our soft-life shackles are the reason we “need” to make a gas station out of the Middle East, and it’s not going to happen….
Wasn’t the editorial about unruly activists i.e. Code Pink? Why are you people arguing? As is the case with Code Pink, intelligent people are not going to take you seriously if they can’t even hear you over your own noise.
Yes, and your contribution to the topic?
Otherwise, yes the thread was hijacked. A good example of my point regarding the intent of trolls. To hijack the discussion
We could always try mass marches a la Gandhi!!!!
Until the US populace gets the courage to take to the streets and follow the example of Gandhi’s non-violent marches and demonstrations nothing will change. The people have got to WANT the Constitution restored enough to ACT accordingly. If there is no such desire, there will will be no more US Constitution (except in name only).
Things will change only when the populace is alienated and hopeless.
Then they may :
STAND UP - for what they believe to be right.
SIT DOWN - in the nearest street to bring transportaion, retail, everything to a standstill.
FIGHT - I hope like Gandhi’s Pathan friend Badshar Khan(Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan) (check him out)a Pashtun nonviolent Muslim
FIGHT - Even if it means sacrifice to themselves to totally repudiate the oligarchy
FIGHT - As if their lives depend on active resistance - which they do
When people realize that they cannot ignore the actions of the government and realize they themselves are the governmet, only then is change possible.
What a shame to let cowardice bring down such a noble experiment of human governance!!
Here are some comments by a man who stood by Gandhi - Badshah Khan, who led a 100,000 person army of non-violent Pashtuns from the Khyber pass region. He was a Pashtun (Afghan) political and spiritual leader known for his non-violent opposition to British Rule during the final years of the Empire on the Indian sub-continent. He was a lifelong pacifist and a devout Muslim. He was known as Badshah Khan (sometimes written as Bacha Khan), the `King of Chiefs’, and `Frontier Gandhi’.
“To me nonviolence has come to represent a panacea for all the evils that surround my people. Therefore I am devoting all my energies toward the establishment of a society that would be based on its principles of truth and peace.” –
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan
“Today’s world is traveling in some strange direction. You see that the world is going toward destruction and violence. And the specialty of violence is to create hatred among people and to create fear. I am a believer in nonviolence and I say that no peace or tranquility will descend upon the people of the world until nonviolence is practiced, because nonviolence is love and it stirs courage in people.” – Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan to an interviewer in 1985
His story is contained in ‘Nonviolent Soldier of Islam: Badshah Khan, A Man To Match His Mountains’, by Eknath Easwaran (Published by Nilgiri Press).
Also see NPR highlights:
http://www.npr.org/programs/musings/2003/jan/khan.html?sc=emaf
Bane Richter: your post is even more yawn, and trails_end: stick to the point of the post, and while your at- stop using labels… they weaken your (anyone’s) argument.
I would like to hear more exapmples of how an Xpolitico may have reached the media or politicians. Also, more on how we actually reach media/politicians (what actually perks their ears? Money/Donations? Ratings/Votes?)
leading to…. what extreme stunt would favorably affect donations/polls? Line people up around their state capitols and allow them to take, on-by-one, an ax to their credit cards? Man that would feel good.
As someone who is not a USA citizen (very proud of living in a nation that bestows more freedoms than the USA does to its citizens), what I found most disturbing is the escorting of those who demonstrates the USA so-called freedom of speech “rights.” I may be wrong, but I thought USA congress shall make no law abridging the Freedom of Speech. As Mister Skelton demonstrated, he cited a law, I assume made by Congress, granting those who practice this right be arrested. I don’t understand. This example illustrates typical American hypocrisy, as does your Government infringing on people’s right to peaceably assemble in Washington DC. Your Government does this by arresting people who utilize their rights granted in the USA Constitution, yet nationalists of the USA complain when Americans practice their rights. Genius! How can that be possible? The name of your nation is NOT Soviet Union, Cuba, or North Korea - it is The United States of America. So quit acting like a dictatorship that supposedlty spreads Democracy. No wonder why many people throughout the world view you as the stain of humanity that YOU TRULY ARE!
I have awareness of a few Americans who say that the women of Code Pink was being rude and stating that the action of practicing Freedom of Speech was inappropriate which made the police arrest the women. I am reminded that while rights granted by your Government can be taken away (hence they are not rights after all), worse has happened throughout the world. In fact, on the continent of Europe, former heads of state and ideologues were killed for doing exactly what Mister Skelton did that day, and so were people like your Republicans and fundamentalist Christians who do not respect what the majority of a given nation would like for its Government to do. Again, throughout history, people who had similar agendas to Republicans and fundamentalist Christians, who essentially ruined the nation they ruled in every which way, were KILLED for doing such action. Scum similar to the Republicans, fundamentalist Christians, and millionaire CEOs of the USA is one reason why the such events as the French and Cuban Revolutions have happened, as well as Nazi takeover of Germany prior to WW2. Republicans and fundamentalist Christians should feel greatful they live in the USA because HERE, they do not stand a chance…obviously!
I did write this before and then never posted it because I took my puppies for a walk. (It has more to do with the article.)
Nicholas Von Hoffman has to be kidding applauding Moveon.org. Moveon is as useless and ineffective an organization as possible. Moveon members (when asked to pick a Democratic candidate) chose Kerry over everyone else, the same way all the Democrats did. Now I hear those same people shouting for Kucinich.
Kucinich, at one time, was my choice. Now that I know more about him, I would never vote for him. He’s voted for some horrible legislation.
Ron Paul or Barbara Boxer are the only ones, that I know of, who I would even consider voting for.
What’s wrong with Kucinich?
Ron Paul is anti-choice, Barbara Boxer is not. Neither of them inspire the progressive movement very much either.
I have no idea who I’m voting for this time around. But I do know that the only wasted vote is a vote for someone for whom you need to hold your nose.
Please! enough of that Ron Paul, the free market/freedom libertarian craps.
Brava! Code Pink. But, I must agree with Sir Melvin Cleophus’s observation that the only way to ever regain control of the federal government must be through class war. This is precisely what US elites have feared since the contry’s inception and have worked hardest to nip in the bud, an effort that continues unabated through media and its allied distractions, and is clearly present on this thread.
To hell with every politician in office. Vote for new names and faces. The old ones are antiquated, complacent and useless.
BANE - I know someone who tried to join CODE PINK. Several of the major CODE PINKERS are VERY wealthy. Mansions. Beverly Hills. After learning that, I am even more impressed with them because they could sit around eating petit-fours all day, but they fight against this illegal war and they have themselves dragged off to jail time and time again. It’s good that some people with big money are fighting for the people. It gives one hope that money does not corrupt EVERYONE. Most, but not everyone.
karlof1 - I agree. The PEOPLE will HAVE to take this country back from the crooked and corrupt politicians. It’s INEVITABLE.
Curmuggeon - I like that idea. I remember one march Gandhi led. All the people marched through the streets to their destination, and the police came with their sticks and started beating them. The people were falling to the ground bleeding from their severe injuries. But EACH TIME, the people rose back up and kept walking. They didn’t use violence in return. They kept walking with their beaten bodies and dangling limbs. The police saw this, and were immediately stirred. They dropped their sticks to the ground in SHAME.
Hey curmudgeon99:
I think the real fear some people have is not what would happen to them if they step out and protest. It’s what would happen at home.
You hear all this talk about how great the economy is but trust me screw this house bubble crap. The Economy was crap way before that. It was great for CEO’s who had record profits. But not for people that work for a living.
Most people are one car malfunction, one broken bone, sick child, bad case of the flu, or just happen to be late cause of traffic situation from loosing it all.
And not because they don’t try. They just are stretch to the limit.
So for a person to muster up the strength to risk loosing there job, they house, and the lives to stand up for what they believe in can some times be more than the average person can do.
They are not selfish by nature but forced by the system and the “new rules” to survive at all cost.
Sure a lot of people would love to boycott Wal-mart. But it sure is nice to have money left over on their paychecks after taking care of the monthly shopping.
Most people would love to eat healthy. But it sure is a lot easier to eat for 4.50 a day then it is to eat for 13.50 a day at a healthier place.
Most people are already working 45-55 hour work weeks and not by choice. One day of work is one bill that won’t get paid.
So I wish we could some how band together but until we are all suffering and have nothing else to loose. It might not happen until our children or our grandchildren are ready to take on the mess that we let happen.
~Future~
Wanted: MSM coverage.
I first read this article Wanted Unruly Activists on the
DC CODE PINK list this morning. I requested to be on the
DC CODE PINK list some time ago - following one of the first large actions - 300,000 of us - walking around the White House some years ago. I had not known of CODE PINK
before that particular action.
But over the years following that action I find myself
at odds with the manner in which members of CODE PINK show their disapproval of the Bush administration’s war agenda.
I came down to DC for this past Mother’s Day march to Congress - leaving quite disappointed in the manner of the march. Certainly not a true Mother’s Day march for peace. It became just another anti war rally - with chants of SHAME SHAME SHAME that I refused to chant. I was standing right next to Cindy Sheehan as she stood on a flower pot in front of the Department of Justice screaming the words SHAME SHAME SHAME. I simply could not chant with her. I do not feel that Gonzales has been an honorable example to hold the office of Attorney General - but to chant SHAME SHAME SHAME at the Department of Justice was not in keeping with a Mother’s Day peace march.
Walking to Congress that day we could have been chanting
PEACE SALAAM SHALOM instead. We could have been singing true peace songs and chants - more in alignment with
what we would want for our country and the world. But that is not what came about. It could have been quite different. We could have attracted the attention of 3 lanes of traffic and pedestrians all along the way between the White House and Congress chanting for peace rather than merely being disruptive. Please think about the difference in approach.
I do not believe in war as a means of working out conflict. I disagree vehemently with the actions of the Bush
administration with regards to spending trillions of dollars killing thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe in the reverence for all life.
Yours, mine, and all creatures sharing this earth together.
But you will not see me vigiling or marching with CODE PINK. Not again. Not unless the manner of their protest changes.
To be truly effective in altering the politics of war I believe we need more people refusing to pay for the weapons of war - more people willing to take steps to communicate their sincere concerns to their legislators in a careful, respectful manner - more people to stand up to say NO.
I do not believe I am alone in my unwillingness to vigil with members of CODE PINK. I believe there are many more
women who question the manner in which CODE PINK
chooses to disrupt Congressional proceedings.
I believe we as the ‘peace community’ would be more
effective if we were truly peaceful in our approach to
addressing Congress - with more decorum, with more respect for the process of addressing our concerns. Congressional legislators - and the public at large - might be more willing to listen to - and support - our concerns if they were presented in a more careful, respectful manner.
Without the yelling and screaming so prone to come about
during CODE PINK protests.
I am here in DC - choosing to come down from Massachusetts to housesit for someone in order to join with others in protest of what the Bush administration continues to do. And yet I am no longer willing to stand with militant activists to show my disapproval of what this administration is doing.
I may agree with their message of NO WAR. I may be just as
upset and disappointed in the lack of Democratic objection to what is being allowed to continue. But the manner of delivery by ‘unruly activists’ distresses me - and I believe you might find quite a number of concerned activists who feel similiarly.
Yes - we need more people to come out against the Bush
administration’s war policies. We do. But I can assure you
the manner in which members of CODE PINK, Cindy Sheehan and
‘unruly’ activists are behaving will keep the majority of ‘peace’ people WE NEED on the sidelines not coming to rallies or vigils UNLESS the manner in which peace is promoted by peace ‘anti war’ activists alters in a more peace oriented direction.
In the meantime I would encourage anyone serious about ending this war to seek out information of war tax refusal -as a means of protesting this war - and all wars. What was it that General Alexander Haig said? Let them march all they want as long as they pay their taxes. They can not spend money on weapons killing innocent people if we refuse to give them the money for those weapons, can they? No.
Let everything you do be done in love.
1 Corinthians 16:14
‘Love is the measure.’ Dorothy Day
‘Gather yourselves…All that we do now must
be done in a sacred manner.’ Hopi Elders 2001
Those of you interested in helping Cindy Sheehan unseat Nancy Pelosi are encouraged to sign up at http://www.sheehanforcongress.us
“X-politics is only for the lion-hearted. Samuel Adams played it at the Boston Massacre and the wildest, craziest and yet most essential X-politician in our history was John Brown, Old Potawatamie, who ended dangling from a noose, the North’s most electric abolitionist martyr.”
While I applaud the due praise for Code Pink and The Rev. Yearwood, I think the above statement is meant to let the rest of us off the hook. It shouldn’t. The last thing we need is to be told that some “lion-hearted” super heroes will take care of us. We all need to learn how to be the actors in this play, or we are doomed.
Hi Paul Bramscher,
I don’t like that Ron Paul is anti-choice, either. But it’s the only thing that I can find that I don’t like about him. I’m not sure about his stance on the environment. I don’t think he has one, or hasn’t voiced it, I guess.
You asked ‘What’s wrong with Kucinich?’
Kucinich voted for some legislation, a while back, that stated that kids should be kept out of school if their parents refused to put them on the medication that the schools insisted they take. Ron Paul, on the other hand, co-signed legislation that opposed this outrageous bill, and made a speech to congress that moved almost all of them to vote against the original bill.
Barbara Boxer may not move the ‘progressive community’ but she’s okay by me. She is the only Democrat, that I know of, that has an ounce of guts. She actually tried to get Bush impeached, for instance. She also tried to get a recount of the Ohio votes.
Yeah for the women in pink! We do need more of them. Never prouder of my gender. outrageous decisions by this administration calls for outrageous behavior by people with a conscience. I wish they’d call me!
Vern, you are awesome. The truth is though, most people are afraid. I live in a well to do community which is left of left and there are a few vigils here and there but not much action, a whole lot of shopping downtown. The academics and established art community somehow doesn’t know how to organize with the inner city community, they love adopting the kids though. I know, a little jaded but I am just trying to get to the crux of the issue. Truthfully, screw the Libertarians and their free market crap and denial of causes of social injustice. We all know socialism or at least regulated capitalism would work better than this leviathan. Are any of you people organizing or what? I know there is probably a thread for this. You are all so damn smart and pithy, where is the backbone though. I know I can’t sleep that well at night with all this bs goin down. All they need to do is get one generation through that is too happy with their cell phones and computers and then no worries for the elites. I worry that that generation is right behind us. KEEP HOPE ALIVE. KEEP ON TRUCKIN.
Go Code Pink!
They’ve been carrying the torch in-between the BIG demos, just like I join a dozen fellow activists for the First-Friday sidewalk vigil once a month. We weem to be a pitifully small
We all have to to what we can, when we can, where we can.
But every time I hear another threat made against Iran, I ask myself, “Is that when I’ll step off the sidewalk and start blocking traffic?”.
I like what Scott Ritter says about building a more effective antiwar movement in his book “Waging Peace”. Being a former soldier, he speaks in the language of military campaigns - which causes many peaceniks to wince.
But I agree with him that 1000 demonstrators in Washington for 100 consecutive days would be a lot more powerful than 100,000 demonstrators for one day.
I’d like to see savvy web-organizers like MoveOn.org working on this - in addition to their “intemperate” newspaper ads.
Capitalism is good? State-run capitalism bad?
Umm, have I missed something. So as long as we dismantle the public schools, welfare programs, consumer protection agencies, everybody will have a better life? And of course, national health insurance must be off the agenda. Remember, it was your choice to be born into poverty, and the elites choice to be born to riches!
Capitalism blows. Get over it.
Good for Code Pink, but von Hoffman is right. There should be a lot more rudeness. Otherwise, it’s just irritating and eventually taken for granted. There should be massive rudeness and the issues should be forced…all the time. Don’t want to be rude? Did your mother tell you not to be rude? Did public officials tell you to calm down, “we’ll take care of things”? Are things getting better?
Your brothers and sisters and sons and daughters in the military are killed for a reason no one can explain. (Of course, they can’t.) You are lied to constantly. Your civil liberties have been hacked away. You’ve been silenced as legislation is written by and for global corporations. Don’t want to be rude? What will it take?
It’s your life, you know.
Congress is not the only place that one will get the boot for heckling; it happens all the time on other so called progressive boards; I got banned at Hartmann’s board for having the audacity to post several common dream articles critical of the Dem controlled congress which puts into question their endless support of the Iraq War. Heckling ought to be protected instead of punished. If the progressive movement is ever going to be relevant again, it needs to embrace diversity, including the diversity found in communication standards. One size surely does not fit all.
Truthseeker and future are both right.
It takes love which gives courage to act.
There are all kinds of excuses not to act. Some people even feel that all the loss of liberties is ok if they are safe. Mosst don’t realize that not acting means having given up.
I know the wage slave theory and it is true - but it won’t get any better people don’t act.
Want to reason with mass murderers and accessories to murder of hundred of thousands of innocent Iraqis? “Let us reason together.”…suckers.
off22, Uh, yeah, like I just said, state-run capitalism is bad. You didn’t say anything. You just reinforced my statement that state-run capitalism is bad.
There’s nothing wrong with free trade as long as people are controlling it as opposed to the government.
Communism and socialism blow.
The Rev Yearwood clip shows that we are living under an authoritarian government right now.
It’s a sort of authoritarianism of the unitary executive based on the philosophy of Dick Cheney and executed through a compliant and weak-minded President.
Windhorse..
Thank you, my man or woman.
A totally sane comment at last!
Future,
All the thing’s you’ve said are true, but they have always been true, were the French pesantry more economically secure in 1789 what about the Russians pesants in 1917? Or, the Sandinista’s in 1978? Or the Indians from 1920’s to 1948?
Great, more Ron Paul dickheads spouting off. Ron Paul is about as progressive as I am a neo-con. He wants to dismantle and privatize every social program that exists, he’s a pro life wing nut, he’s a racist asshole, need I go on? Anyone that votes for him is a racist asshole as well…
emilie–I respect your right to protest as you choose, but to refuse to march with Cindy Sheehan and the Code Pinkers is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face! They are the vanguard of this movement and have inspired many not to give up hope. I hope you don’t think they should be polite and respectful when they go to Washington. What have our “representatives” done lately to earn that?
trails_end: are you sure about Kucinich? It was S. 891 Child Medication Safety Act of 2007 introduced in the Senate and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
It was “To protect children and their parents from being coerced into administering a controlled substance in order to attend school, and for other purposes.” That’s something I would vote for!
Kucinich seems to be the best match for most of the country- he campaigns for (and introduces legislation for)
-ending NAFTA & the WTO
-Immediate withdrawl from Iraq
-reducing the defense budget
-universal single-payer health insurance
-signing the Kyoto and other international treaties
He is the best union man out there. When people take a poll matching their values to congressional votes- Kucinich wins by a landslide.
He also has been there for the most votes of ANY canidate- he’s actually doing his job!
People criticise him because we are told to do so.
I am supporting both Kucinich and Ron Paul- I wish they would debate because it would actually be worth watching.
dustinchicago, The bill “To protect children and their parents from being coerced into administering a controlled substance in order to attend school, and for other purposes.” was the Ron Paul bill.
Kucinich voted for the one that wanted to coerce parents and their children…
I criticise Kucinich because that’s how I see him now. Nobody tells me what to think.
Kristina40, how about ‘progressive’ dickheads? Whoever said anything about Ron Paul being progressive?
A word about progressives..rememeber Margaret Sanger and her onward and upward movement to sterilize the poor in this country? The wonderful progressive Sanger who was buddies with Prescott Bush?
Umm..a little love affair between the progressives and the reactionaries? The left and the right? The Democrats and the Republicans?
Ah, but what the hell? The only thing that matters is that you’re on the right side. Isn’t that right?
Law and order - what a bummer ey?
http://wheresyourbrain.blogspot.com/
trails_end,
But also do you remember Jane Addams and Hull House? Was she not a progressive woman who dedicated herself to helping the poor and inspired other women and (some) men to have a broader humanistic concern for the poor? You seem to frame your argument on one idea, make a judgment, and use that same paintbrush to cast a monolithic picture that excludes many other significant aspects.
I don’t think trails_end was stereotyping; rather, s/he was using an historical example–one of many–to show past collusion between supposed progressives and reactionaries. If you’ve read Kolko’s critic of the so-called Progresssive Era–”The Triumph of Conservatism”–you should be able to appreciate the point being made.
Yeh, law and order is a real bummer in a plutocracy. Or is that just “order”?
Just two nights ago we were watching John Lennon vs the United States of America and I ask my husband “Where are the John Lennons, Abbie Hoffmans and Jerry Rubins of today?” His answer was, if they were around today they would either be “dissapeared” or in Guantanamo. As a 18-20 year old at the time of Vietnam and the Democratic Convention in Chicago, I know that their outrageousness gave the rest of us a little nudge to do something, maybe not as radically as they did, but something, to protest that war, and the collusion of the establishment in it. Radicals are never embraced by the mainstream, but they cut the path for the mainstream to follow. I live in rural Washington State and the only demonstrations against the war we’ve had in this area have been a bunch of 50+ year olds. Where are the 20 somethings? Why aren’t they outraged? We need their energy. I find it a source of endless joy that the torch of those anti war radicals is being picked up by a bunch of courageous, loud mouthed, women in pink.
emiliehamilton:
At some point one has to say “No!”
I am normally hesitant to engage in judgmental chanting, but didn’t Jesus turn the tables in the Temple and call the hypocrites “whited sepulchres”? It’s easier to lose your center when engaging in that type of thing, but with practice, not impossible.
It is time to say NO!
Futureme writes: “So I wish we could some how band together but until we are all suffering and have nothing else to loose…”
-That principle is called ‘Unity in Adversity’ and when it kicks in, I’ve seen it unite even the most disparate of people.
Vern, fear not, I hear where you are coming from and my instinct supports that viewpoint. The Left is not at present in the ascendant. Many of us feel passionately that it should be, as that would likely result in a more equitable, peaceful world, so if the prevailing wind is overarchingly from the powerful, nasty Right, we quite naturally seek to support the ‘underdogs’ who are pushing towards the warmer, more humane region of the Left.
Personally I care not if Code Pink are rich, -or poor, but do care very much that they continue with their blessed and beautifully ‘unruly’ work!
To couch it in religious terms, if Buddha or Christ popped up in the USA tomorrow and chose to align more with one side or the other, I have no doubt they would be more supportive of the Code Pink gals, than the *CODE OINK* warmongers!
I want to see medals for our ‘Meddlers’ ~ and awards for our unruly ‘Untowards’!
PS: What was that little snipe that John Stewart took at Code Pink’s demo at Petraeus’s hearing? It’s good to laugh at ourselves, but John’s comment was that the way one of the Code Pink women was protesting “wasn’t helping.”
In all fairness though - That’s one criticism after seeing hundreds of very funny politically-astute gags.
May Code Pink strike again and again.Amen to that and to Moveon too.These morons(senators and Reps) are making a mockery of democracy and every damn one of them should be run out of Washington
I thought Rev Yearwood he was just givng a hip hop breakdancing demonstration.
The elite will pay attention to two things:
1. MONEY
2. DEATH
If the elite refuse to relent, one of these activists will go off the reservation and hit them in one of these spots. Death is much easier to bring about.
Due to technical difficulties I’ve had to move my petition to http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/unsanam2
A Petition for United Nations Sanctions Against America
In response to blessthebeasts and srelf
I do say NO. I refuse to pay for the weapons of war - I have met with our MA
Representative John Olver with a small
group of women which may have led to his
choosing to join the Out of Iraq caucus -
I came down for Camp Democracy last September - I make phone calls and send
letters to our Congressional legislators.
I have spent time vigiling at Lafayette
Park across the street from the White House. Before Bush was given office in 2000 I worked for the Peace Tax Foundation because I do not believe people choosing to live in accordance with their conscience should have to live in poverty.
Back when Bush Jr chose to bomb Iraq I and
a few other women sat in prayer praying for
diplomatic intervention rather than a rush to war. Tomorrow, and perhaps Saturday I may spend at the vigil in Lafayette Park.
I do not want to walk with women who have
chosen to use foul language and screaming
to get their message across. I remember some time ago shortly after Cindy Sheehan
had met with Thich Nhat Hanh how she said
she would be more careful in communicating her outrage - her anger - her sorrow. But that is not what happened. I met Cindy Sheehan when she came to Northampton - I saw photographs of her son - I listened to her story - her pain. I am not her. But I
had hoped that she might bring more dignity to anit war protests than she has.
I do not believe I am alone in my wish for
a more careful organized protest of the war in Iraq.
Heck, what about a Kucinich/Paul ticket. Oh shit the shrub is on the tele. Gotta go puke! Kucinich STRENTH FOR PEACE 2008.
Can’t take it anymore!!! Heard Schrubs voice on the radio and started screaming. Scared all three of of my dogs into the corner! God, I can’t take it anymore……
trails_end September 13th, 2007 6:09 pm
“There’s nothing wrong with free trade as long as people are controlling it…”
Yeah, I know you. Let the “people” control it. You mean the Masters, which you hope to be one of. To folks like you there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. Masters and Slaves.
That IS Libertarianism.
Rebel Farmer,
I don’t watch or listen to Bush. In fact, I rarely watch television. But whenever I do and his ugly mug appears on the screen, I switch the channel, or when his voice comes on the radio, I change stations. It almost is an innate reaction. That helps me.
An updated version of libertarianism:
Vote for Ron Paul or Armageddon. Scream and tell everybody that he’s our messiah until everybody else becomes ad nauseum (in addition to the free market crap) .
Sorry, I keep having problem with editing.
emiliehamilton:
I get what you’re saying, I think. But, the word “shame” is not foul language. In all the Code Pink demos I have seen, I haven’t heard foul language by them. Is it that common? And just what is it that is so offensive? There are always the fringe elements that show up to your demo that are using tactics or sentiments that you are opposed to. Is that what you’re talking about? That stuff is a real bother and detracts from a good message. But it can’t stop us from participating. One can always go over and give them an alternative view. Maybe that’s what you are there for.
Here’s what RoundAbout says in his petition, linked to above.
“Never before, in the history of our world, has there been a threat so grave or imminent as that which is now posed by the United States of America and the sociopaths that rule it.”
Wow. I guess Nazi Germany never really happened or the Roman empire.
And. you don’t know me, RoundAbout. I’m probably a lot poorer than you are and have no desire to be anyone’s master. Nor would I ever want to see a situation where there would be an anarchism where masters and slaves existed. But the likelihood of that happening in an anarchism is a lot less than under a government system. What we have now IS a master and slave situtation. It’s called big government. It’s just the same as any other big ugly government, whether it be Stalinist Russia, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany or the present neo-fascist United States.
Can you people be this blind to reality? It wouldn’t even help if we had another revolution here because people like you would just take over and we’d end up with another corrupt stinking system of Big Government.
Honestly, wake up before it’s too late. And fuck the United Nations.
Neither have I heard “foul language” from Code Pink. Or from Ray McGovern. Or from Cindy Sheehan. Or from Rev. Yearwood. If we are talking about something, we have to distinguish between what is real and what is not.
Frankly, the language that Abbie Hoffman and the Yippies used would not be as effective today. It was more of a big deal then. More attention-getting.
I’m sure those who advocate dignified protest are very nice people. But we want something that works. I’m of the opinion that we can be dignified until hell freezes over and not much will change. (It would if half the population went on a dignified strike, but it won’t happen.) Our tactics should change as we learn. We have to shake things up. Maybe that’s a basic difference in dissenting tactics, but I think it’s also a difference in perception.
I don’t think I’m off the mark in calling those who brought us to war and those keeping us there murderers. We murdered three million or more people in southeast Asia and we’re murdering people again. It will happen again even if we are successful in “bringing home the troops” from Iraq. At some point, a nation has to be honest and use honest words no matter how painful.
Personally, I thought Amy Goodman’s interview with Curtis Muhammad, a man with decades of activist experience, was heartbreaking in his obvious coming to grips with the nature of current dissent in the case of the Katrina aftermath…People are going through the motions but where is the anger, the desperate passion?
“I think the real fear some people have is not what would happen to them if they step out and protest. It’s what would happen at home.
You hear all this talk about how great the economy is but trust me screw this house bubble crap. The Economy was crap way before that. It was great for CEO’s who had record profits. But not for people that work for a living.
Most people are one car malfunction, one broken bone, sick child, bad case of the flu, or just happen to be late cause of traffic situation from loosing it all.
And not because they don’t try. They just are stretch to the limit.
So for a person to muster up the strength to risk loosing there job, they house, and the lives to stand up for what they believe in can some times be more than the average person can do.
They are not selfish by nature but forced by the system and the “new rules” to survive at all cost.
Sure a lot of people would love to boycott Wal-mart. But it sure is nice to have money left over on their paychecks after taking care of the monthly shopping.
Most people would love to eat healthy. But it sure is a lot easier to eat for 4.50 a day then it is to eat for 13.50 a day at a healthier place.
Most people are already working 45-55 hour work weeks and not by choice. One day of work is one bill that won’t get paid.”
Future.me, I agree. That’s why I get angry at people on the left who suggest that the people are lazy and apathetic. It’s self-righteous.
Can a guy or gal with two kids to feed afford to go to jail for wrestling with a cop? Or have that cop knock their teeth out?
The people in power know that a majority is against them. They don’t care. We could all rush the White House, and they’d just cut half of us all down. You think they’d pull out of Iraq just because we started turning over cars, raising hell, and busting heads?
Most people can’t afford to become martyrs.
God Bless the Code Pink ladies. I just hope they don’t end up like John Brown or even Rev. Yearwood, whom I can’t say I’m enthusiastic about putting himself in harm’s way.
If people would just vote for the right people, we could make things right w/o any bloodshed or chaos.
Ron Paul says some good things, but I still wouldn’t trust him as far as I can throw him.
Kuchinich is getting my vote.
To those at the end of the trail, Kucinich also wants to pull us out of the UN. Nafta as well. I’m not trying to change your opinion……or am I? Peace to you and yours.
Arry -
How low has our “education” sunk ? !
“God bless” ing anything is a condemnation of real thought.
If we don’t stand up to the military-industrial-complex, and stop buying and reading the NYT, LA Times, Chicago, etc. etc., and start printing our own papers (the Paines Times ?), either online or in real print… or both…
What is drastically misunderstood is that, if we don’t get out on the streets, they won’t “see” us. Nothing new under the sun since the Yippy revolution… so, they don’t know to look on the internet… they can conveniently avoid acknowledgement !!! And thereby deny it in the major news (print or video).
“What we don’t acknowledge doesn’t exist” - ooops, that’s me quoting myself… through observation.
iwarrior — The first order of concern for any plutocracy or any other authoritarian state is that the people think they have some power and are “part of the system”. In our case, national elections have to look like they have some meaning. But can’t you see the way it always shapes up?
The whole process is to hire a spokesperson for the military-industrial-corporate-complex and make it look like the people have a choice. It is accomplished through massive amounts of money given to the best “job applicants” for marketing, usually involving being a “voice of authority” and saying very little and only that which can be safely be enclosed, now or later, within the corporate agenda.
If people voted their views, Kucinich might actually win the nomination, but things are arranged differently, and part of it has to do with fear of rocking the boat. Fear that the edifice will come tumbling down. That’s what they always hold over our heads. So, we go for the easy person, the person with few sharp edges to puncture the nice enclosed corporate womb in which we spend most of our lives. (The lie is that it is beneficent and has something to do with democracy.)
You can be sure that the corporate establishment would pull out all of the stops if there was actually a chance of Kucinich being elected.
Anyway, I don’t consider it to be self-righteous to vigorously and passionately oppose living under a gang of corporate thugs and to honor with my life the principles of our republic. What’s our nation worth? Maybe that’s a question that should be asked.
marclarby — True. The internet is kind of a “free speech zone”.
EMILIEHAMILTON
you could be right. perhaps it would have more effect if everyone were to sing the ‘beatles’ song: ALL WE ARE SAYING, IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.’
over and over and over and over……………………………..
I’m somewhat confused by all the attacks on the so called “nasty libertarians” by many of the posters here, and not just in this recent thread but in many previous ones. I have no party affiliation and am a political novice of sorts, but I don’t understand the vitriol toward those who, according to Websters definition of libertarian, “…advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state”.
I realize that that definition may be an over simplification but most “libertarians” I know are like most “progressives” I know, very compassionate, and caring people who have a deep concern for the preservation of individual rights, like free speech, the right to free assembly and association, the right to freely practice their beliefs (and non beliefs), etc. They advocate non intervention in most foreign matters with a very limited role in government in general. Though they advocate a free market economy most are not corporatists, they are small business and individually oriented and would dismantle the bloated corporate state welfare system.
While we bicker over personal political preferences our so called “government” has been hijacked has it not? Do you really believe voting is going to change things? While we may wait in hopeful anticipation for the next election, the forest around us is on fire threatening our homes, our livelihoods, and our “freedoms”.
George says “they hate us for our freedom”. So what’s his solution? Take them away from us while he goes on some blundering messianic quest for… what? oil? rapturous eternal salvation? revenge? proof he’s tougher than daddy? What the hell is he doing?
So back to the article above “Wanted Unruly Activists”. Good for Code Pink, they are doing what they deem essential for them. We are not all “code pinkers”, but we are “progressives”, “libertarians”, “union workers”, “leftist intellectuals”, “anarchists”, “confused bystanders”, “outraged democrats” and “betrayed republicans”. Each need to find the “activism” appropriate for themselves but it needs to go beyond the “comfort zone” if it’s going to have any impact. We need to get creative and recognize our common enemy, Bush and company, and support each others efforts to rid ourselves of this dictator and bring him and his co-conspirators to trial for crimes against humanity.
“Anglo-Saxon inhibitions”
what the fuck does that mean?
Clue:
http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/libertarian.html
Irony heh, that the response to a putdown would be criticism of a putdown?
See the game? If someone makes derogatory remarks about Code Pink–that is okay, but if someone attacks those who criticize Code Pink, then that is the problem.
Ever notice the Right allows themselves license to attack freely, but silences dissent?
“Anglo-Saxon inhibitions”
The WASP ruling class and their puritan imposed stifling rigidity.
In response to coco..
I really do believe if we sang GIVE PEACE
A CHANCE as the primary chant - a chant
without religious overtones - we would
attract other people - people who agree
with ending the war but would not join
the more militant activist vigils and
marches. Someone from ‘home’ up in MA
mentioned to me yesterday how he remembers the vigils and marches of years ago when
more ‘common’ people were willing to come
out for vigils and marches - ones that
truly advocated for peace. So yes - if
organizers of these marches would consider
chanting ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE I believe more people would come
out to join the demonstrations.
LOL, this is great. I have my own opinions on the subject, but like 90-95% of the articles I read here (almost all of them) I’ll keep them to myself for now… (okay, so maybe I post a little more often than that, but I have been going through a bit of a shy/quiet spell lately)
What I -WOULD- like to point out is the title of the article in light of the thread we have going on here. I’d say that the article served it’s titular purpose quite well, the mob gathered here has indeed been ‘unruly’.
This is both excellent and disturbing. Excellent in it’s passion and it’s wide array of views being presented, that is to say, both a spark and some fuel. The disturbing part is not that there is dissent here, the disturbing part is that not too many of you seem to be willing to take each other seriously enough to stop and listen to some well reasoned points.
If you stopped being so pissed and get a little CURIOUS you’ll find interesting things happening. Sometimes you find out some info that changes your mind, sometimes you’ll end up twice as pissed, either way you usually learn something that will make you a better person or at least make your arguments hit a little harder with the fresh facts…
After that thought, I’ve decided to give you my opinion on the current discussion after all.
I used to be one of the pro-libertarian people. I really liked the idea of the state staying out of things and letting me run my own life. Then I thought about roads. I realized that I probably wouldn’t have made it past my 2nd year of life if it hadn’t been for my Medicade paying for the hospital stay and medical care I needed at that time. I realized that public utilities were nice…
Then I realized that libertarianism, if you just stop and think about what will REALLY happen instead of focusing on the joy of the relief of government inspired pressures. We’ve seen what happens when big business is allowed to regulate itself, haven’t we? Doesn’t every corporate scandal that screws us (us as in the poor and middle class) over come on the heels of deregulation? Don’t things get a little better for a while while someone who represents the people (at least nominally, and I’m referring to the government of course) makes sure they aren’t just up and up ABUSING us. (I know, it’s not as great as I’m making it sound, but it’s more than NOTHING, which is what I’m comparing it to)
You say the ‘invisible hand’ of the market will do that? I thought so too, until I got a little better at math. You see, I don’t believe that Adam Smith conjured up any invisible hand, but I do believe in the invisible hand of mathematics (there’s more evidence for it) and the math behind the free market utopia is assumptive, demonstrably inaccurate, and fantastically utopian. It actually requires people in the position to live in luxury beyond our dreams to actively support society because they are smart enough to realize that they NEED us to be at least ‘okay’ in order to grease the wheels of the system that feeds them. That would seem to make sense too, until you pick up a newspaper and quickly realize that it just doesn’t work like that. The rich are always trying to pay less and less, libertarianism requires them to VOLUNTARILY give more and more. Not today chummer, it’s not happening.
Face it, if you simply passed the hat to pay for a 20 million dollar bridge replacement (or that much for simple REPAIRS on a large bridge, but for now I’m just talking about your average over-the-city-river bridge in small town USA), how often do you think the hat would fill up BEFORE the bridge actually collapsed?
Some of you anarchists (the ones I make friends with) have a vision in your head of how anarchy COULD work, and it’s beautiful. It’s also extremely-low probability. Sure, you can grow your pot without worry, you can live with the person you love without some bureaucrat telling you that it’s unacceptable, but those things are possible in a socialistic democracy too (re: Netherlands). What you keep forgetting is that big business will be more than happy to step into the authoritarian role. Oh they MIGHT (that’s an important word, and needs to be meditated upon in this context for true understanding) not send the dogs, truncheons and rubber bullets chasing after you, but they most certainly WILL cut you off of supplies of food, water, shelter, heat… You can grow food or hunt you say? Oh whose land? Your land? The bank doesn’t own a piece of it does it? You wouldn’t be too upset if it was taken in a ‘merger’ in the form of a ‘hostile takeover’ would you? If it did upset you, to whom would you take your grievance? Think it through, they have the resources, the land, the manufacturing equipment, and they need far fewer of us as ’surfs’ thanks to modern manufacturing techniques. You want to deride me for using the mythical ‘they’? Well, ‘they’ have meetings all the time, ‘they’ know that they are of a kind, and look after each other (yes, there is dirty backstabbing, but any thieves guild has that), ‘they’ know each other, if not by face then by reputation, they know who belongs and who doesn’t… But calling them ‘they’ is foolish and conspiratorial, no? makes me seem crazy. Anyways, onward…
And as for Ron Paul specifically he’s a libertarian (with everything I discussed above wrapped up into a neat little package) and he’s a racist. Oh, he apologized for that? (to paraphrase) - ‘I’m sorry you took my comments so strongly, but I’m not a racist just because I told the truth about almost all black people being criminals’ is not an apology to me. Even if he DID apologize, I’m not the type to magically like someone because they came down off their high horse long enough to toss out ’sorry’ quietly and grudgingly at the lowly likes of myself and my class.
Woo, that turned into a lot more than I meant it to.
emiliehamilton: I am in no way being derisive of you or the song you suggest, but you made me think of something…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IfhUaUuG1sM
Again, I’m not being derisive by posting this, in fact I think it demonstrates how fearful of peace the fascists are.
Beware the Lame Duck
The Nation Editorial
“Relief over Bush’s last days should not blind us to this central fact: For the next sixteen months, his Administration is the executive branch. It still runs the occupation of Iraq, approves or vetoes laws and budgets, makes political and judicial appointments, issues federal regulations, negotiates treaties and trade agreements and controls a swollen network of surveillance and law enforcement agencies. Indeed, thanks to the implementation of the “unitary executive” theory and the unprecedented use of signing statements, Bush may be the most powerful and dangerous President in history.”
America is locked into a corrupt economic and political system made corrupt by a sociopathic ruling class and elected lawmakers dedicated to continuing the corruption forever. Our representatives have immunized themselves from law by passing laws that legalize criminality. For instance, campaign contributions are nothing but legalized bribery. In another instance, the Supreme Court gave corporations rights equal to and in many cases superior to human rights. Corporations are a sham device owned by wealthy people who gave themselves unlimited rights and no social responsibilities. All along, the intent was to oppress, exploit and rob the American people.
We the people can’t reform or change the system by voting because our representatives in both political parties have subverted the laws and constitution by making it virtually impossible for us to establish new political parties to reform or change the system. Remember, their primary goal is to protect and perpetuate corruption and the system, because corruption is the source of their wealth and power. And truth be told, not enough Americans know or care enough to even vote, much less reform or change the system.
Don’t worry though, the system is self-destructing anyway. With a little luck, some of us might even survive when the plutocrat’s Mammonistic Empire crashes and burns.
.
trails_end: Well, I looked in the congressional record, and the only bill comparable to what you said is the I only found the Child Medication Safety Act of 2007. Please find the name of the bill you are referring to (Library of Congress)- it might help change my opinion on Kucinich. Otherwise, I will just think you are confused.
The “telling people what to think” reference was to MSM’s deliverance of him and others… like Mr. Paul
And again about labels, they only weaken one’s argument (if you have one). The important thing is to show that people think for yourself.
It’s seems that I’m picking on you- but the other posts here I either agree with them or find them boring… so on to free trade- we must always be allowed to do business, but the needs of the community must always come first. How about a little honor in our laws. I will still listen to Ron Paul only because he sounds different from most all other candidates- like he actually listens to many and thinks for himself.
On the UN- I always held out hope for this organization. And it has been a good platform for institutions, nations, scientists, and philanthropists from all over the world to come together and move forward… but I fear One World Government and how the UN may fit in. Until the rest of the world can use the UN to gain enough leverage to stop the US (or China, Russia etc) when it’s govt does something harmful to the world, the UN will not be the platform we expect it to be. Building a consensus among billions of people is impossibly difficult- but we must work towards some useful platform.
On Wal-Mart (iwarrior & Future.me) is there not a difference between civil disobedience and moral-value shopping? Everyone here needs to take a long look at their spending habits. There are always ways to shop healthier and local- and yes it can be more expensive. But what about your priorities and moral values? I’ve been broke and homeless- I’ve made it through because I am completely honest with my priorities (It is possible to eat healthier and less and spend the same as your $1 menu diet.) And because I worked it through with friends and family and kind strangers. Yes its extremely hard to go it alone- especially with kids in tow- which is why you need a strong community (which, by the way, is not Wal-Mart). And fighting a cop is not civil disobedience.
Marclarby: yes start your own paper- amazing what you can do with computers and printers these days. Everyone ask themselves- How many people can I speak to? How many can they speak to? That’s your base readership.
On Kucinich- I hear repeatedly that “if people vote their values and views, then Kucinich would win. But, he has no chance.” Call me an optimist, but that seems totally contradictory. The more people you get to think for themselves and question all they see and hear will Kucinich closer to winning. Just stop for a moment…. Breathe…. Be FOR something.
Rebelnow: I also find many precepts of Libertarianism appealing, and I would love to see a compromise with other points of view. Again- free market is vital to the function of the community, but at the same time it can’t trump the inalienable rights of people or the overall welfare of the community. Otherwise, Self Rule fades away. Consensus and Compromise People!
Vern: people are attacked when they criticize unrighteously. It’s the “those activists suck, but I’m just an armchair general” attacks that we shouldn’t allow. It’s about backing up your argument, or else you’ll be viewed as a hack and treated as such.
AND THANK YOU NEOMUNK! Unruly mob indeed! And I am curious, always. I want to hear what others think in order to appreciate others and to improve my own beliefs. From your post- I had only listened to Ron Paul speak, haven’t done any in-depth research on him, so I think I will. Has anyone ever tried free-market socialism? The government not providing services but corporations owned by unions or communities- is there even such a thing?
I do apologize for tell one to stay on topic and then going off myself- that is bad form. So, my best attempt to turn mine around-
Which candidate would most likely listen to protesters? In what order?
Which would most like listen to them as President?
How would you get the UN to listen to you, so it would be more effective to your needs?
What corporation would respond to protest and how?
Which person in this thread responds the best/worst to criticism and question?
And I DO BELIEVE IN VOTING! First, consider the alternative of not voting. Yes, we need action of all sorts- and more people need to be involved more of the time—that is the safegaurd of democracy. Vote damn it!
The invasion of Iraq is most often referred to as “war” when nothing could be further from the truth, it was and still is nothing more than armed robbery with extreme violence. The Iraq nation was subjected to sanctions, a no fly zone over most of their country and bombing before the final act of aggression. That war council called UNSC couldn’t possibly be called by a greater misnomer than that. How can an organisation which is supposed to keep world secure sanction the marauding mobs which hurtled towards Iraq with the resulting death and destruction in their wake.
How can a nation believe 19 incompetent arabs hijacked 4 aircraft and flew them around the most heavily armed country the world has ever known and then not call for the incompetent who allowed it to happen to go.
The reason of course is because the people fear for their families, their livelihood and their very existence.
Years of brainwashing the American public with ” history ” of the superiority of the USA over all others and the claim it’s a democracy when in fact it’s nothing more than an autocracy. Yes almost every citizen has a vote but who do the people they vote for represent, they represent the people who gave them the money to run.
Not until the full spectrum of political thought is represented can the USA call itself a democracy.
“I’m somewhat confused by all the attacks on the so called “nasty libertarians” by many of the posters here, and not just in this recent thread but in many previous ones. I have no party affiliation and am a political novice of sorts, but I don’t understand the vitriol toward those who, according to Websters definition of libertarian, “…advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state”.”
Libertarians are Social Darwinists who believe that the wealthy are wealthy because they earned it & that all the people’s attempts to redresses social iniquities & inequities through law or state mechanisms — the only mechanisms which can limit the power of corporations — are destructive of the wealth-creators, i.e., them. And those who don’t achieve wealth, or enough to satisfy themsel;ves, are just lazy. For example, all the victims in New Orleans & the Gulf Coast don’t deserve to be helped because “they chose to live there.” People who can’t afford health insurance could pay for it if they made an effort, but they’re lazy or stupid. & want the non-lazy people — i.e., libertarians — to pay for it.
Libertarians are parasites who look past all the structure built by unpaid labor and maintained by tax-breaks given to economic exploiters, and they imagine that they could do all that better if only the state would stop oppressing them.
EMILIEHAMILTON
oh well, it was a thought. i watched the video neomunk posted. i don’t know what that was about or when but there didn’t seem to be a lot of people. and they didn’t appear to be unruly. so i don’t know what’s the solution or best course of action. maybe the police are programmed to respond to certain tunes/lyrics. good luck all of you.
oooh this thread is fun!
Libertarianism is a political philosophy maintaining that all persons are the absolute owners of their own lives, and should be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property, provided they allow others the same liberty. Some view that it is morally imperative that all human interaction, including government interaction with private individuals, should be voluntary and consensual. Other believe that allowing a very large scope of political and economic liberty results in the maximum well-being or efficiency for a society - even if protecting this liberty involves some initiation of force by government.
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It is usually considered a branch of the broader socialist movement.
Social Democracy aims to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of state sponsored programs and organizations which work to ameliorate or remove perceived injustices inflicted by the capitalist market system.
In response to coco..
I watched the video posted as well..
not knowing what may have provoked
the police during that particular
peace gathering.
I still believe your suggestion of ALL
WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE
is EXCELLENT. So much so that I chose
to post a message to the DC CODE PINK
list hoping the suggestion could lead
to more people joining vigils and marches in the future. If you were here in DC
I would suggest you join me in singing
ALL WE ARE SAYINIG IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE
tomorrow.
EMILIEHAMILTON
i’m glad you have done something positive in the way of suggesting a song/chant. and this is a very powerful refrain if produced correctly. but it must be co-ordinated. i’m a singer so know what that means. it’s no use everyone singing at different times. and the rythmn is very important too. there is also a chance to put hand clapping in there that will boost the impact. oh how i wish i could be with you. but i will go about my day tomorrow singing this and thinking of you. i looked for other relevant songs but they were too long. however just for the lyrics and sentiment have a listen to marvin gaye’s ‘what’s going on’ and ‘mercy, mercy, me.’ once again, good luck.
emiliehamilton:
Each organization has its own philosophy regarding the tactics they feel best gets their point across. There are many groups who DO make use of candlelight vigils and quieter protests. If CODE PINK doesn’t fit the bill for you, then try something else that will. Don’t expect them to change to fit your needs.
Personally, I admire Code Pink for reminding us what this administration is…..SHAMEFUL!! I don’t think that can be overstated. Lying to the American people, illegal invasions and occupations of sovereign nations, rendition, torture, spying on US citizens, exposing undercover CIA agents solely for political revenge, appointing incompetent cronies to fill roles that are vital to our well-being and security, awarding no-bid govt contracts to corrupt corporations who steal and waste our tax dollars……ALL shameful. Shame doesn’t even BEGIN to express how I feel about that!
Would the Mc Carthy hearings have had the same impact had Mr Welsh not stood up there and demanded: “You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”
Where is that courage today? There should be impeachment hearings going on as we speak. And someone should be repeating those VERY words!
Flower-power was as well and good, but it was paraplegic vets chaining themselves to the chain link fences surrounding defense contractors that got national attention. Keep in mind also, that the Kent State episode began as a peaceful demonstration and ended with the murder of 4 innocent students by our own national guardsmen. Several were shot in the back while running for safety, others killed while walking to class, carrying books.
Now THAT is shameful!!
but but but Sheehan and Parser and Rev. Yearwood are Very Unserious People!
How dare they pretend that the people who work for them in Washington, whose salaries they pay, are actually accoutnable to them!
Why, they might even suggest it’s our natural right to change our system of government if it’s not working to our benefit, like another bunch of Very Unserious Troublemakers 230 or so years ago…
neomunk, dichterfreund, dustinchicago, rabblerowzer, and others, thanks for the informative posts.
I wish I could sit down with everyone and hash out all these thoughts, questions, plans of actions etc but we are limited to these postings for now.
Dichterfruend, I’m wondering if there could be such a thing as a compassionate libertarian? or do you think that their libertarian ideals automatically make them “parasites”. After reading your post about Social Darwinists I want to reread Peter Singer’s, “A Darwinian Left”, essay.
dustinchicago, Can we assume that the US is not a Social Democracy? What is the US defined as now? Is Bushco just a more fanatical version of a corporatocracy that has been in place for a long time?
And where would one put Nader in the political spectrum? Where do anarchists fall? left or right of libertarians? Or are they not even on the spectrum?
So many questions, so little time.
“iwarrior — The first order of concern for any plutocracy or any other authoritarian state is that the people think they have some power and are “part of the system”. In our case, national elections have to look like they have some meaning. But can’t you see the way it always shapes up?
The whole process is to hire a spokesperson for the military-industrial-corporate-complex and make it look like the people have a choice. It is accomplished through massive amounts of money given to the best “job applicants” for marketing, usually involving being a “voice of authority” and saying very little and only that which can be safely be enclosed, now or later, within the corporate agenda.
If people voted their views, Kucinich might actually win the nomination, but things are arranged differently, and part of it has to do with fear of rocking the boat. Fear that the edifice will come tumbling down. That’s what they always hold over our heads. So, we go for the easy person, the person with few sharp edges to puncture the nice enclosed corporate womb in which we spend most of our lives. (The lie is that it is beneficent and has something to do with democracy.)
You can be sure that the corporate establishment would pull out all of the stops if there was actually a chance of Kucinich being elected.
Anyway, I don’t consider it to be self-righteous to vigorously and passionately oppose living under a gang of corporate thugs and to honor with my life the principles of our republic. What’s our nation worth? Maybe that’s a question that should be asked.”
Arry-you make good points. I don’t have a problem with those who rail against the system. It’s just that the author acts as if everyone can afford to get tackled by a bunch of cops and risk their well-being and jobs over this. If you have nothing to lose, great, but most people have a lot if not everything to lose if they do something rash.
A bunch of us could waltz into the White House with a bunch of guns, but most of us aren’t going to make it out alive, and if we do, we’re going to spend the rest of our lives in jail.
I’m not saying people shouldn’t “make trouble” per se. Sure, people like Code Pink and Rev. Yearwood are very courageous. I applaud them and pray for their safety. But at the same time, we can’t expect everyone to risk it all either. That’s what I am taking issue with. I hate when people suggest that the majority of Americans are sans a care and a clue. They know something is wrong. The elections are around the corner.
I think part of the problem is that people are unaware of candidates like Kuchinich. They know about Obama, Clinton, and Edwards because they’re all over tv. Yesterday I discussed Kuchinich with a staunch Democrat I work with, one of the few people there I can have a decent political discussion with.
He had never seen or heard of Kuchinich before.
He was like, “You know, I like that guy Dennis…whatshisname. I might vote for him, he seems like a true Democrat.”
No kidding. So I told him, “Heck yeah you should vote for Kuchinich.” This guy didn’t even know that he ran in the last Democratic primary. And he’s a registered Democrat!
“On Wal-Mart (iwarrior & Future.me) is there not a difference between civil disobedience and moral-value shopping? Everyone here needs to take a long look at their spending habits. There are always ways to shop healthier and local- and yes it can be more expensive. But what about your priorities and moral values? I’ve been broke and homeless- I’ve made it through because I am completely honest with my priorities (It is possible to eat healthier and less and spend the same as your $1 menu diet.) And because I worked it through with friends and family and kind strangers. Yes its extremely hard to go it alone- especially with kids in tow- which is why you need a strong community (which, by the way, is not Wal-Mart). And fighting a cop is not civil disobedience.”
I agree with you. I myself try to stay away from big chains. I never go to Wal-Mart or McD’s and try to keep my money within my neighborhood. But I also think we need to teach people how to live on that $1 a day healthy diet. Not everyone knows how to do that. That’s why they go to Wal-Mart and McD’s to stretch their dollar.
Fighting a cop may not be civil disobedience, but what to do if you’re getting pounded on the skull with a nightstick? I’m going to try to defend myself. I’m not at all suggesting that people should go after cops. I’m worried about what the cops might do, and we all know how cops can be.
I don’t know. What do you all think I should do? I live in Pittsburgh. I know there’s at least one other poster here from my area.
Now you all are making me feel like I should do more than just vote.
*sigh*
I do discuss politics with people. I’ve done it on other forums unrelated to politics and have taken my lumps for it. What else should I do?
I mean, I AM angry. I just don’t want to get myself into trouble here. But I have a feeling that trouble is what I will find, and again, I’m getting itchy.
Help? Activism is rather new to me.
Tactics!
I think about this a lot. It seems that the previous tactics of the antiwar movement have been met with limited success. Massive rallies in Washington were temporarily scrapped for supporting getting Dems into Congress and were then scrapped for many small local actions. Some people have been practicing civil disobedience by occupying lawmakers offices, but it receives little media attention outside of the internet. When activists like Code Pink do get media attention, they are framed as “wackos” by the media. We have already succeeded in changing public opinion and getting a Democratic Congress, but it has not accomplished our ultimate goal of ending the occupation of Iraq. What should our tactics be? Should we follow Code Pink’s lead despite the media’s spin on it? More polite approaches seem not to have worked. What can we do that will not make us marginalized but allow us to be a force that cannot be ignored by Democrats or Republicans? How can the people stop the war machine? How can we create our own frame for the issues and our actions instead of letting the media and Congress frame them for us?
In response to Emilie Hamilton’s post and my previous ones, how do we walk the fine line between being labelled “angry liberals” and “stupid hippies”? Taking the kinder gentler approach suggested by Emilie might work well or it might lead us to be ignored entirely. Ideas?
I have been criticized in the past for comments I have made concerning “religious persecution”. I have stated that the great majority who claim to be persecuted for their religion, were in fact being persecuted for being obnoxious. I think we may have come full circle here. I have contacted MoveOn.org, and the HuffingtonPost both for their idiotic, counterproductive moves made in the past week. Has everyone forgotten that we are going to need the votes of the moderate “swing voters” next year? Petraeus did not “betray us”. He simply followed orders given to him by his Commander in Chief. However, MoveOn decided to “shoot th