A piece of legislation sits on the desk of President Bush today, awaiting his signature. Every expectation is that he will veto it. Another mistake.
The bill is the Intelligence Authorization Act for fiscal 2008, with a provision tying CIA interrogation techniques to the US Army Field Manual, which is explicit in prohibiting “acts of violence or intimidation, including physical or mental torture, or exposure to inhumane treatment.” The CIA would henceforth be forbidden to engage in any kind of torture, but so would any “instrumentality thereof, regardless of nationality or physical location.” The legacy of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, renditions, and black sites would finally be sealed. The United States would bind itself to one standard of interrogation, completely prohibiting any form of torture. The nation would be back in line with standards of the Geneva Convention, and, as a group of retired admirals and generals put it recently, with “the moral principles on which this country was founded.”
Dozens of former military leaders, in a campaign orchestrated by the human rights organization Human Rights First, have been actively working to get all forms of inhumane interrogation outlawed, including those practiced by the CIA. The three points the military leaders make are that information obtained through brutality is unreliable, American soldiers will be subject to similar mistreatment, and that procedures in violation of internationally recognized norms are dishonorable. Their advocacy was part of what led to the passage of the legislation that is now before Bush. Unfortunately, the number of congressional votes in favor of the bill fell short of the margin needed to override a presidential veto.
No one’s vote meant more than Senator John McCain’s, and here is where the first shock is felt. After leading the charge against torture in all its forms - McCain has been vigorous in denouncing the Bush administration’s refusal to outlaw waterboarding - the Arizona senator voted against extending his own firmly stated standard to the CIA.
“What we need,” he said in explaining his vote against the Intelligence Authorization Act, “is not to tie the CIA to the Army Field Manual, but rather to have a good faith interpretation of the statutes that guide what is permissible in the CIA program.” Because McCain, a torture survivor, has such credibility on the question, his negative vote provided cover for many others, which is why Bush’s expected veto can be upheld.
But what is this appeal to “good faith”? Firmly rebutting McCain’s assertion, Lieutenant General Harry Soyster, former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency and one of the most active of the Human Rights First cadre of military leaders, said, “But as Senator McCain well knows, the Bush administration has never provided a good faith interpretation of laws prohibiting torture; instead it has produced - and continues to produce - legal opinions that downgrade the definition of torture to the point where the term becomes virtually meaningless and any conduct at all is permissible.”
Waterboarding is the prime example here, making it the flash point of debate. Last week, the current head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Lieutenant General Michael D. Maples, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that such simulated drowning is inhumane and in violation of the Geneva Conventions. His agency’s interrogation methods conform to the Army Field Manual.
The Defense Intelligence Agency and CIA are alike in being global intelligence agencies, but they have been at odds with each other before. The issue is personal to me because my father, Lieutenant General Joseph Carroll, was founding director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. General Soyster was its head when my father died, and at dad’s funeral at Arlington, he presented the flag to my mother.
My father was of that World War II generation of American military figures whose sense of moral purpose was firm. I arrived at different conclusions on large questions of war and peace, but the basic values of decency and honor embodied in my father’s career remain ideals against which I measure everything.
That torture is even a subject of debate in this country is a flabbergasting development. That dozens of America’s most admired military leaders find themselves openly opposing the commander in chief on such a question is equally surprising. Another astonishment is that McCain, avatar of military honor, finds it necessary, according to his perceptions of what politics requires, to trim his opposition to torture. It may be just that unthinkable now that Bush will sign the bill before him. But who knows? On torture, the shocks abound.
James Carroll’s column appears regularly in the Globe.
© Copyright 2008 Globe Newspaper Company
I think McCain is living proof that torture permanently damages the brain of the surviver.
What does it say about the public that supports these positions? As Carroll points out, McCain is blowing in the political winds, winds rooted presumably in the conservative base that had been for Romney, and now is for Huckabee.
We need to start with the very basics of human decency with these people. Somewhere along the line, every group other than a conservative, and especially far-off people of a different hue, became something less than human.
These same people that love to tell an ungrateful world, “would you rather be speaking German right now?” have no trouble espousing the same sort of dehumanizing mindset that led to the Holocaust.
And the experts say torture produces unreliable information. But then the experts were saying that if you were going to invade Iraq - and those not associated with the administration were warning against doing so from the beginning, because it could cause civil war - then you had to have more troops.
Bush and the neocons bear a scary resemblance to fascists. A notable characteristic of a fascist mentality is an unwillingness to take in dispassionate, objective information. You listen to your inner circle and that’s it. Certainly not a democratic approach.
Paul - originalfaith.com
Paul, Bush and the neo-cons bear far more than a RESEMBLANCE to fascists… they make fascist noises, use fascist tactics, and for all practical purposes look EXACTLY LIKE fascists.
What is the old line… “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck…”
There was a time where most people in the world thought of Americans as “the good guys”… I know I certainly did, and took pride in the fact that our country stood for justice, fairness and honor.
Since Bush, I think people like Thomas Jefferson and John Wayne are rolling over in their graves because of what is happening to the American image.
We have long had laws on the books that prevent things like waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other inhumane treatment of prisoners regardless of their “legal or illegal” status as civilians or combatants.
Bush & Company broke those and other laws, and should be arrested, tried and convicted for doing so.
Unfortunately, we are saddled with a cowardly Congress and a rooting section of pro-fascist “news” people who have helped Bush & Company rise to power and intimidate our own citizens, not to mention the rest of the world.
They should ALL be tarred and feathered. I’d start with Limbaugh, Coulter and Pat Robertson myself.
Bush and his cronies’ needs to be investigated by Larry Flynt. There’s nothing I enjoy more than looking up stuff on larryflynt.com to see what the hypocrites are doing now. People for torture may need to experience it and than they wouldn’t go along so easily.
Provoice: You are getting closer to the truth but are not there yet. The US has NEVER been what we were taught. Never. It is just what our teachers believed because they were misled and didn’t BOTHER TO THINK ON THEIR OWN.
Washington, Jefferson and Madison were outsiders and barely managed to have an influence. Their ideas, from the enlightment, were largely ignored in the practical realm. The US developed along the lines of European imperialist thinking, hence Lincoln’s insane obsession with keeping the union together to maintain its ability to compete for empire. He was right, if you believe imperial thinking, and dreadfully wrong if you follow Washington. That is why he chose to violate his oath of office and the constitution. Lincoln is one of the worst presidents the US ever had, unable to make the right decision at a critical time, like Hillary. He was narrow minded and lacked the kind of intelligence we saw in Mark Twain, much more an American hero than sorry Abe.
Of course, you can argue that stealing is profitable. Alas, it is also wrong.
Let’s all pretend that yet another “law” prohibiting torture is the answer, as if our Loonitary Decider wouldn’t add a “signing statement” that states he’ll continue to do whatever the f**k he wants whenever he wants to whomever he wants no matter what the laws of man and/or God demand.
Because the truth is this: the US Government has always used torture - and even taught it at the “School of the Americans” - and will continue to do so in the future. The only difference now is that we have a gang of insane wimps who brag about torturing in an effort to convince themselves they’re “tough guys.”
And the future is this: we will continue to torture at will, we just won’t ever dare talk about it in public. Liberals call that the “good old days.”
As poor a choice as Bush 43 is, perhaps one day we may ‘thank’ him for bringing the actual practices of our government into the light. I agree that torture has long been a reality for the CIA types, they have had to admit it is something they have been involved in. NOW, it is up to us to see what we can do about accountablity. An organisation like theirs with no accountablity and a huge budget, both from taxpayer money and likely also from drug money cannot be allowed to co-exist with a free society. Our current situation is a case in point.
Barn Burner has hit the nail on the head. One only can wonder who tortured Bush and Cheney.
John Wayne? You mean the one who made movies glorifying the conquest of the West? Meaning the terrorizing, murder, and torture of the original inhabitants and the stealing of their land? “the only good Indian is a dead Indian” John Wayne?
I’ve never heard anyone from the progressive community hold John Wayne up as a role model before.
Interesting.
Frank 1569 hit the nail on the head.
Soon we will have a Democrat President and then we will all pretend that the US doesn’t torture anymore. And we will pretend that when the US bombs another country that it is for human rights.
Lizard,
It’s the lazy man who rips at the great without providing any substance or content to his rip. Upon what stupifying height do you look down at Lincoln and declare him the worst president we have ever had, when the one we currently have makes Idi Amin look like not such a bad fellow?
I think that most of us have by now figured out that the America of our childhood is a sweet dream of innocence that makes belief in Santa Claus a pleasant memory. Besides having adult insight and correctly viewing our country in the naked light of evidence, I believe there is a need for more than words; action, action, action. Membership of participation in organizations that are active in attempting to change the quid pro quo of our corporatocracy, law breaking government that has been violating the principles of the Bill of Rights for over 100 years is as much a civic requirement as are the eloquent words that expose the illusion.
John Freeman’s right.
It has taken the arrogance of Bush, Cheney, and the others who have not bothered to to hide “the dark side” of American policies that have been carried out in our name for at least 150 years.
Now you know why they keep pointing to their actions as ‘nothing new’ and “just doing it the way it’s always been done”. They do not understand what the big fuss is all about, as a result.
John McCain, like hillary clinton, both prove one thing. That both will say or do anything to get elected. How craven. These guys are mirrors for the rest of us out here i think. Those of us who are willing to pimp themselves out for the neo-con PR machine that is. Those waiting in line to get on Survivor or The Biggest Loser. Or Fear Factor where they make big bucks to eat bugs and compete to see who can take the most humiliation. We, and i mean the big we here, deserve the likes of gw and cheney. They are icons for the lowest in human values being trumpeted as the highest.
In a time of war, things are easily justified.
“You want to win don’t you?
Just support your team and stay quiet.
We have to torture, bomb, invade, imprison, etc…
There is no other choice.”
Yes there is.
We don’t have to live in a constant state of war.
We have the ability to live in peace.
We can lead through example.
We can live in peace.
“the moral principles on which this country was founded”
which moral principals are those?
Native Genocide?
Mutiny and Rebellion?
Slavery?
Segregation?
Foreign Wars of Agression?
Support of Mass Murderer Dictators?
> I think McCain is living proof that torture permanently damages the brain of the surviver.
No. It’s proof that of how Republican party shapes candidates and supporters. Fear is an integral part of the Republican party. Candidates must support a never ending war, both physical against poorly defined enemies and against the Constitution (a.k.a “suicide pact”). McCain would argue against torture and people would still leave his rallies mystified why he was against something that “saves lives”.
It’s a self-perpetuating cycle.
> And the future is this: we will continue to torture at will, we just won’t ever dare talk about it in public.
If we can’t talk about it in public then we can’t torture at will. OTOH, if it is legal, then torturing at will is not all we’ll do, we’ll do it wholesale and I don’t mean a few dozen at a time.
60 Minutes did a piece on a crowd control weapon that inflicts pain on people yards away. Imagine what one could do with a crowd trapped in a courtyard. Why torture one when you can do it to a thousand at a time? The stupidity of the device is breathtaking. Use it in a mob situation and people could get trampled by others fleeing.
First time someone collapses in the vicinity of the device, totally irrelevant whether the beam ever hit the person, word will get around there is a kill setting. Person might have collapsed due to the heat but with fear and folks running around, it could easily become ‘fact’ that someone died. First day - breaks up Iraqi mobs with no muss. Second day, Iraqis bring RPGs instead of rocks.
No anti-waterboarding law will apply to this device. So we will have nothing to complain about if the mob manages to get to the device, capture the operators and leaves them tied up in front of the device until it runs out of power. All in good fun.
> Every expectation is that he will veto it. Another mistake.
Mistakes are when you trip over something. His veto is no mistake.
lizard:
“[Abraham Lincoln] was narrow minded and lacked the kind of intelligence we saw in Mark Twain, much more an American hero than sorry Abe.”
I’d be interested in a bibliography of your sources that would lead you to this opinion and your conclusions about Abraham Lincoln.
As I’ve gone along, one thing I do know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Our pResident, case in point.
As I understand, the procedure in the “Bush” White House has been that the bille passed by Congress go directly to Cheney’s desk. Then, if he decides it should not be vetoed, Cheney brings an attorney aboard (I’ve forgotten his name.)to write the signing atatement. THEN the bill goes to Bush’s desk with instructions. Impeach Cheney first!
Cee miracles: I can’t provide sources for this! I do know that the union was formed under the understanding that it could be dissolved by either party. Do you really need a source for this? The rest just follows. do you need a source to say that Lincoln imprisoned judges, suspended habeas corpus and generally disregarded the constitution? Do you need sources to tell you that the civil war was barbaric and unjustified? It all follows from the fact that the south had a right to pull out of the union. If you agree to this, isn’t the rest obvious? The proof is in the fact that Lincoln had to use excuses to justify his actions.
PBK: Lincoln was the worst because he set up the game for Bush. Lincoln is Bush’s hero, and Bush learned well. Had Lincoln respected the south’s decision, the US would never have been able to cause so much suffering in the world. Lincoln did what he did precisely to preserve the power needed for conquests of Empire. That’s why I don’t like him. Until about a year ago I thought he was great, but I’ve been reading. I didn’t write down the sources though, so I guess it doesn’t count. I guess I should go back to liking him but, mysteriously, I can’t.
I agree that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but I hardly think me not liking Lincoln is dangerous. Who is going to agree anyway? This is Lincoln remember? Why, he is practically a God. Isn’t this the guy who said “If I could preserve the union by keeping blacks as slaves I would”? Isn’t emancipation one of his great achievements? Well, it wasn’t that important was it? As for preserving the union, geez, thanks a lot. Look where it got us and the world. The world is impoverished by us,to make us rich, and we have a well deserved reputation as killers and thieves. Yep, definitely worth it. Lincoln was not the first to undermine the constitution, against his meaningless oath, but he was the one who did the most damage by establishing a strong precedent for presidential power, illegally. Also, for deceit, as a tool of government.
Lizard,
First there was no such thing as “parties” when the founding fathers drafted the constitution. Secondly, in a Union with a centralized government there is no “right to secede” as you imply. Were that the case California with the largest economy might have done so 20 years ago. I also would be interested in your citations. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus because as you might recall, our nation was at civil war and it was without question a national emergency. The suspension was provided for in Article I Section 9 of the Constitution. Jefferson Davis also imposed martial law and suspended habeas corpus. Lincoln’s suspended it in Maryland (a border slave state) parts of midwestern states, including Southern Indiana, in order to protect the capitol from being surrounded by hostile territory. 620,000 lives were lost during the civil war, all Americans. Every survey of presidential historians ranks Lincoln Number 1 of all the great presidents.
As someone posted earlier, a little information can be a dangerous thing. Posting a coherent argument along with some citations to support your contentions would be a valuable thing to learn. Recall the “Proclamation of Emancipation” and compare that to anything smelling remotely of greatness coming from this alleged student of Lincoln, George W. Bush?
President Bush is a child left behind in the Andover, Yale and Harvard Business School
educational systems.
provoice wrote: Since Bush, I think people like Thomas Jefferson and John Wayne are rolling over in their graves because of what is happening to the American image.
Careful what you think about the Duke. He was an ardent anti-communist, and vocal supporter of the House Un-American Activities Committee. He was pro-Vietnam and a white supremacist (publicly stating that schooling for African-Americans was a waste, and that genocide of the American Indian was good). I loved his movies, but his politics sucked.
mirf59 said: These same people that love to tell an ungrateful world, “would you rather be speaking German right now?”
JFK’s Ich bin ein Berliner not good enough?
Lizard,
Its ok to have your own opinion, and it matters not to me whether you like or dislike Lincoln; he was a controversial man working at a time of immense domestic unrest. Riots were occuring routinely, militias has sprung up and threatened average civilians, and it is true, inter arma silent leges, “in time of war laws are silent”. But you cannot compare the civil war to Bushco’s war on terror or his illegal invasion of Iraq. You are extrapolating the one to the many when you compare Lincoln to a mentor of Bush.
Should we compare the Proclamation of Emacipation to No Child Left Behind?
Cannuckchuck, the moral principles I believe might be found in the Bill of Rights along with the Declaration of Independence. Words however lofty cannot displace the archaic nature within homo sapiens, which you aptly pointed to in the genocide of our native population, slavery, imperialism, torture and all the other egregious crimes our nation has committed including the internment of all Japanese citizens during WWII. Having no noble sentiments at all would leave us in the delicate position of having nothing to compare behavior to. It is the nobility of ideas and ideals that lay the bedrock for a civilization. It is up to the people to strive to meet those ideals, and to protest their violation. Most religions have at their core a simple message of hope, charity for the poor, love of one another, yet look at the carnage that has trailed each one for centuries? Morals and principles allowed us, or some of us, to look at slavery and see the inherent wrongness and brutality and inhumaneness of it. And from that contrast of ideals in conflict with an economically based tradition, it was the ideals and high moral ground that eventually triumphed. That doesn’t wash the blood from the rock of time, but it does gives us a reference point from which to look forward, just as this monstrously evil administration, with an avowedly Christian President presiding over the destruction of hundreds of thousands of lives, the looting of our national treasury, amidst many other crimes, presents us with a contrast that goes to the core of decency within most, but not all, critically thinking Americans, and because the media in the Europe is not as controlled by right wing moguls, the world is also outraged. We need moral principles if for no other reason than for guidance in our personal actions.
Whatever Abraham lincoln was, he saved the Union. Just imagine this country divided and say, France, Mexico, France, Spain, or Great Britian, etc assisting one side or the other at any time. What would have happened to the Western Territories or the Alaska purchase from Russia? We can only surmise, maybe some good things would have transpired, ___ maybe not.
We can be fairly assured of one thing, slavery in the south would have continued, perhaps to this very day. Lincoln saved the Union. A terrible civil war ensued with brother against brother at times. When it finally ended, the Union was saved. Without Lincoln, it may never have been. We only know for certain, it was saved because of Lincoln.
For those Who have not met “Doctor” LIZARD. ___He has posted,___ he is a Canadian, a practicing MD and a scientist, he has a PHD in geology and is a wizard with math. He does not believe global warming and the resulting greenhouse effect, is caused from burning fossil fuels. Last week he posted (75) comments on one thread, all about as sensible, as the ones he posted here on this thread. He also posted over 30+ others on other thread during that three day period. I stopped counting. He is not an old retired fart like I am, who sits and writes goofy comments here also.
I suppose his medical practice is not exceptionally busy, whichis clearly obvious. For LIZARDhe began posting in the early morn and continued on thru to late evening on a work day. He does not seem to know who Dr. Semmelweis is, or was, and that makes me wonder, where he got his medical degree. Maybe he will look that up now and say he does know?
So when arguing with the LIZARD, I say argue for he won’t honestly debate, keep in mind his brief, but in his own words and actions ___ his storied and rather questionable background.
Hmmmm. The thought police is following me. Mr. Patrick keeps track of my postings and my private hours. Now he knows I don’t work on Mondays. Soon he will see that I don’t post on Saturdays and there will be a revelation! He works Tuesday to Saturday! I have been exposed! I have opinions that differ! I am different and must be shunned. Why, I am absolutely flattered. I really, really don’t deserve so much attention. There are much better contributors than I here. Many. My diagnosis is malignant lizarditis. I hope you get well sir, I don’t know the cure.
PBK: In times of war… But he could have let the south secede because it was their right. The ends do not justify the means. Slavery, according to historians, would have had to end soon thereafter anyway. I will grant you that in those times it was much harder to be enlightened. I will grant that in those times it was easy to justify imperialism and slavery. But that just places him amongst the common folk, no? Americans love Lincoln because they have loved being powerful. It just haasn’t been good for a lot of other people much too numerous to mention. Any list must begin with Native Americans, 95% of whom perished through their contact with the white man.
I’m not tracking you Doctor, just happened to viit this thread and sadly noticed the Lizard had slithered in. ___ Who is Dr. Semmilweiss BTW? You really should know, it’s taught in every decent medical school. Did you perhaps garner your doctor’s certificate from a mail order college? ___ Just wondered?
Love your writing style.
And yes, the place was falling apart and a war always fixes that, doesn’t it? Why was it falling apart? Care to guess if it had anything to do with exploitation of the poor by the rich? Does one have to be a historian to determine that a contract was violated? The Union was an opt-in or out affair. If that was true, the rest is wrong. The south had a right to go, attacking it was wrong, or, the ends justifies the means. I believe Americans, unfortunately, think this way. An example is the use of steroids. Now, I don’t think Americans are the only generally obtuse people on earth. There are many others. But this is the richest nation that isn’t a principality and acts like a bull in a china shop. It also happens to be the people I have been in love with, and I can’t get over my disappointment. I almost wish I hadn’t done any reading these last few years.
Lizard:
As my mother would say to you if she were here: You wouldn’t know beans if the bag were open. You yearn for respectability and for adulation, but you are dumber than dirt.
I have no idea who Semmilweis is. I could have Googled it. Don’t care.
That is exactly what I thought Lizzy.
Folks, when a troll arrives to disrupt a fourm or a site, it is best to scroll on by, plese consider doing that, and I’ll argue with the troll. I’m not any busier than our “MD” here is.
Dumber than dirt. Yup. That’s par for the course. Insults. I am guilty of iconoclasty I guess. I wish I could say I do it on purpose to bug people but I don’t. I just call them as I see them.
PBK: I don’t mind saying Bush is worse than Lincoln. I’d be happy with that. The north did terrorize the south though. There were systematic rapings,arson,executions,beatings,etc. I am no expert but I do believe some very serious humanitarian crimes took place. Of course Lincoln is seen as a hero because it is assumed that preserving the union was the right decision. I make no such assumption. I don’t believe it is possible to prove that a divided US would have been bad for anybody, but I’d love to discover such evidence exists.
It’s actually Doctor Ignaz philipp Semmelweis, the mentor of Doctor Lister, the father of antipis. “Without Semmelweis, my acheivements woud be nothing. To this great son of Hungary, surgery owes most.” ___
~joseph Lord Lister~
“It is the doctrine of Semmelweis, which lies at the foundation of ALL of our practical work of today.” ___ ~Sir William Joppa Sinclair~
You don’t care doc? __ I’m not surprised.
The Intelligence Authorization Act huh! After seven years of moronity they are now going to authorize intelligence? Since when did intelligence need to be authorized. Are we going to have to get a license to exercise it? It’s a no money no intelligence world I guess. I guess I’ll make a job application at the car wash first thing in the morning.
LOL ~Doom n Gloom~ I love humerous posts.
The idea that the US administration would follow the Geneva Convention to the letter! I would be happy if they just toned it down a lot.
How much of torture is about information and how much is it about intimidation? I remember some guy in Iraq comment a while back that at least with Saddam Hussain, you knew what you needed to do and not do to stay out of trouble. What the guy hated was he no longer knew what he needed to do and not do to stay out of trouble. Speaking of shock and awe …
All this talk about Shock and no one mentioned Naomi Klein yet.
And like-minded people gravitate to the same threads so get used to each other. We all have days where we look things up and other days where we prefer to emulate Fred Tupper.
I wash my hands of Ignaz Semmelweis. The thought of chlorine makes me almost as queezy as guards beating prisoners to death.
Thanks to some incredibly prolix posters, the comments on Common Dreams look more like a spam folder than any reasonable person’s inbox.
It’s just another “tragedy of the commons,” and a few simple rules could fix it, without censorship of content:
Comments could be limited to a hundred words, with no multiple posting on the same thread.
Well Vaudree, sometmes you are realy a pitiful soul. I used that doctor’s name to see what the Lizard would say. His reply proved an important point. Now you come aboard and write some silly crap also. Are you Canucks all soplists? All you are doing by writng that comment, is helping the detracting troll Lizard. ___ So I will respond to you also.
Joseph Lister his young medical student, thought very highly of Semmelweis, he took his theory and advanced it, so chlorine eventually was not necessary. It was a very mild solution of chlorine Semmelweis used, mixed with soap and water, he was the true father of antiseptics and that was before microscopes and bacteria was even known of.
In his days of medical practice, over one third of every woman who gave birth, died from infecton. One year, in the most prestegious hospital in the world in Vienna, Austria, every mother who gave birth died from infection. __All of them.__ Those doctors refused to listen to Semmelweis. A few drops of chlorine in a pan of soapy water would have prevented those hundreds of deaths.
Not in Semmelweis’s small lying in hospital, where none died that year. He didn’t know of other antiseptics then, as there never had been any used. He was the first. So wash your hands of him Vaudree, but you are incredibly ignorant. Why not take a bath and soak your head? Washing your hands is not enough.
One final note VAUDREE. Because almost all doctors by far, world wide, did not believe Semmelweis and refused to just wash their hands, over many years of arguing and proving his theory was correct, it drove him to insanity. So one spring day, he slashed his fingers with a scapel and plunged them into the body of a mother, who had died of infection in another hospital.
Ignaz told the starteled on-looking doctors, he would die of the identical symptoms the woman had died of, within three days. __ He was correct. He gave his life, to prove his theory, and to save mothers from dying of childbirth fever. He was a truly great man. Wash your mouth out “V”.
Well I don’t agree Jacob. If I don’t wish to read a post of another, I scroll on by. It’s really not difficult. I have learned a great deal from bloggers such as yourself here at CD and they often have interesting, and sometimes humerous and fun discussions with others. Many excellent points are made by many here at CD on threads of true importance. Spamming is not desirable to me either, where one cuts and pastes. I just scroll past those.
The belief that the states had a right to secede was pretty much accepted until the Civil War ended. However, as every careful observer will tell you, the right to secede is always *contingent* on the ability to succeed.
RE: - I used that doctor’s name to see what the Lizard would say. His reply proved an important point.
Kem, I could use the name “Fred Tupper” to make a point also - though someone would probably judge by the tone of my message whether looking him up would make them angry. Lizard figured falsely, by the tone of the letter, that he/she would be offended if he/she looked up the name. You must remember when you used to believe that the USA was the greatest country in the world and when you first realised that it wasn’t and what that felt like. It took a while after that before you could see the good as well as the bad.
You exhibit mild symptoms of PTSD, I have the type of intelligence that comes and goes, and Lizard is new to this and feels newly angry that she has been lied to all these years. The maiden, the mother and the crone.
Doctor is a hybrid of Fred Tupper and Fred Singer. His purpose is to indoctrinate those who have not heard his bullshit before - to convince us not to listen to the truth. In this context, he provides us with a ready made devil’s advocate giving us the opportunity to challenge ideas that one is apt to hear in coffee shops and PTA meetings.
Thanks for the information on Semmelweis. Remembered only hours after I looked him up that I had heard of him. At the time, doctors used to go right from examining dead bodies to examining the living without washing their hands (as you infer). The curse of Cassandra - knowing the horrible truth, not being listened to, and witnessing the consequences which would have been avoided if he was listened to.
We all know now to wash our hands - and I made that point.
Sometimes we are more serious than others - but not everyone here is a troll Kem. Jacob Freeze posts of that size tend to be very superficial.
BACK TO TOPIC
RE: - Dozens of former military leaders, in a campaign orchestrated by the human rights organization Human Rights First, have been actively working to get all forms of inhumane interrogation outlawed, including those practiced by the CIA.
The word “inhuman” is subject to interpretation and you presently have an administration that doesn’t see waterboarding as inhuman. The Geneva convention goes beyond most of our police forces in its opinion concerning interrogation. What interrogation practices does the Geneva convention allow?
The CIA has been practicing this stuff for a long time and has no intention of giving up these practices willingly.
The CIA funded Ewan Cameron’s research. The treatments Cameron used in an attempt to cure a woman with postpartum depression are used by the US government to torture prisoners now. On page 31 of Shock Doctrine Naomi Klein mentions 9 Canadians who sued the CIA and won. The first of the nine to come forward was Val Orlikow - her husband David phoning the lawyers who would take on the case.
You are better off looking up David Orlikow, if you are interested in the story (because sources vary on what name they give Val). Since David Orlikow was an NDP MP at the time he sued the CIA, this story was in the news a lot at the time.
I did not have this time in my life where I believed that the US was squeaky clean. The NDP is the party my parents and maternal grandparents voted for so we had not reason not to believe Orlikow.
RE: - The three points the military leaders make are that information obtained through brutality is unreliable, American soldiers will be subject to similar mistreatment, and that procedures in violation of internationally recognized norms are dishonorable.
Agree with the three points. There was a point made by Alex Gibney that torture traumatizes those who commit the torture as well as those who are tortured:
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=2006
KEM PATRICK, while I generally agree with your comments and overall point of view, and you make many good points, it sure would help things along if only you’d learn to spell and punctuate. What, for example, is “antipis”? Well, nothing, in fact, and it’s the key to what you were saying about Semmelweiss. Not to mention, what does Semmelweiss have to do with this discussion? Who cares if Lizard knows who he is or even if Lizard’s a doctor? Anyone can claim to be anything on these threads. I could say I rule over the island of Celebes and no one could prove me wrong.
But your posts are so carelessly typed it’s often a mystery what your meaning might be. You have no idea how commas are used, btw. Not that anyone cares about spelling or punctuation any more. Five minutes reading blog threads anywhere is conclusive evidence of that.
~Ephraim~ , Thank you for the chides, they are deserved and constructive. I have no excuse for my sloppy spelling. I do have a reason, as I only have the sight of one eye and that is very poor. I use a magnify glass to check my spelling and sometimes miss things. I also am a bit dyslexic. After I submit, I can enlarge the print on the screen and then see it better. But sometimes I run out of time before I can edit. I will slow down and try to do better.
“Antipis” was the term often used in Semmelweis’s time, the mid 1800s, to describe infection. It is not a word found in the dictionary, like the word “DZO” is not either. But it’s a valid word.
As for the Lizard? He claims to be a practicing MD, and a scientist. If he was, he would surely know who Semmelweis was. It is alright if he’s a practicing dotor, but he uses his qualifications here at CD, to show he is qualifed to argue important scientific issues. He is a desruptive neo=con troll and harms this fine site by being so. He’s been banned from another progressive site for that very reason and now blogs here.
Go to the archives, Saturday Feb 20 and click onto the thread, “GM exec says global warming is a crock of shit”. Lizard attempted to disrupt that thread, posting 75 comments, agreeing with the CM exec that global warming is a crock of shit. He does the same thing on many other threads. It is no secret that the Neo-cons wish to desrupt this site and cause friction amongst us. I point that out with the Lizard, as have others, such as Namaste, who is a pretty sharp guy, who does, know how, to use, his commas. Check it out, you seem to be interested enough to comment on it.
Hi ~Vaudree~ Sorry, but your comment concerning Semmelweis, was only that you wash your hands of him, “yuk, forget that guy”.
BTW, Lizard posted that his wife wished he would stop blogging here also, so I “assumed” she was a he. __Maybe not, as you refer to him as her.
As to me suffering from PTSD, maybe, it would not surprise me. With all of the “DU” that has been spread all over the planet by the military of 30+ nations, we may ALL be suffering from first or second stages of radiation poisoning. Here’s a link that would clarify that comment, takes about two minutes to read it.
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du_blowinginthewind.htm
Well, I feel bad about chiding you, KEM, didn’t know you only had one eye and poor vision in it. Apologies. There are more important things than spelling and punctuation, god knows, but it often seems hardly anyone has even the skills that 40 or 50 years ago every 12 year-old had. Even with your visual impairment, you do a better job than most. And I know about Lizard, was on that global warming thread you mention and recall his comments, though I didn’t stick around to see them all. I have experience with trolls on another website, so I know what nuisances they can be.
Oops, I screwed up again. The article titled, “G.M. exec calls global warming, a total crock of shit” and now in the CD archives, is ___ Saturday, Feb, 23rd. __Sorry for the error. There are 410 blogs on that one.
It’s soooo easy to start learning the truth about Lincoln. Here’s a place to start:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo112.html
Kem Patrick: Slavery was on the way out, and secession would have allowed the process to progress peacefully, without all of the baggage of conquest.
Other disasters that may have been omitted from history:
Spanish-American war, income tax, WW I, WWII, League of Nations, United Nations, illegal wiretapping, state-run torture chambers, no-fly lists, government control over virtually every important facet of our lives, especially economic.
“Lincoln saved the Union” Yes, and was justly rewarded for his efforts. Boothe’s crime? He was four years too late to (possibly) save liberty.
Kem, it was late at night and I was making a pun about the whole washing hands thing to prove that I looked him up. Ephraim, as long as Kem doesn’t mind being misunderstood every once in a while, let him be with his spelling since it is no worse than mine. If we get picky, ESL contributers won’t feel welcome. Myself, I have a tendency to accidentally put in a word that sounds similar with a different meaning - though haven’t mixed up impotent and important yet.
Kem, point taken that it is hard to distinguish between DU and PTSD since both can affect mood - and mood influences interpretation.
As far as Abe Lincoln - while I would not put him in the category as Bush and Reagan, I would also not put him in the same category as Tommy Douglas. He was a President, better than many, but just a president.
My comments for the “big ass” controversy in the Jack Layton Wikipedia entry:
Think of it, school children studying the Prime Ministers of Canada 50 years from now should not be left with the impression that Layton was a dull staid person who took himself too seriously. The purpose of wikipedia is to show future kids who Layton was - which means how he thought. It would also be good, through the “Big Ass” slip that someone was worried about the environment at the time - whatever happens in that regard.
Hansard (Question Period): http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&DocId=2564121
Sister Bessie (Air Farce’s Year of the Farce): http://www.airfarce.com/seasons/season14/061231.html
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Canadians have learned to expect only one thing from ministers of the environment, whether they be current or former, and that is betrayal, because no matter which of them were in power, pollution continued to go up.
What has been the result of this? More droughts, more floods, more fires, more storms and more ice melting. The problem is getting more and more serious.
After all these years of inaction, will the Prime Minister finally get something done and do something the former government would not do and that is to cancel the subsidies to big oil and big ass–I mean big gas and start putting–
Kem printed it out since son wants computer.
Hi ~Vaudree~ Hey, “comma”, if you read that link I offered, “comma” if one inhales one microscopc speck of DU, “comma” they will eventually be sufferig from PTSD, “comma” which is a generic medical term for radiation poisoning. “period” That’s “aprostrophie” because governments and the WHO, “comma” don’t wish to admit DU is a problem. Probably spelled aprostrophie incorrectly however. “period” What’s my score? “QUESTION MARK” ___ BTW, I liked you opinions obout grammer and spelling.
~ADVOCATE4LIBERTY~. Is that so? Well after the civil war ended and the slaves had garnered their freedom, as you surmise and “assume” they eventually would have anyway, look what happened for the next hundred years to the African Americans in the southern states. Remember Selma, Alabama etc?
Do you remember the “whites only” restaurnats and public restrooms in the 1960s.
Wake up bud, and don’t offer simplistic and narrow minded viewpoints, or you look to be rather foolish, as the Lizard does, who shares your stance on that issue.
In addition, Lincoln did not with to have a war, he wished to NOT have a seperation of the states and a split of the union. The war was initiated by the Southern states, their leaders did not want to have slavery abolished. Lincoln fought that tooth and nail, with the foresight to realize that if the Union was divided, foreign nations would eventually be here on this continent, supporting one or the other side and America would eventually cease to be a Nation.
Lincoln did save the Union by being firm and insuring our government did fight it and allow the southern statess to secede. That was not an easy course to take, it would have been far easier to allow that, with no military conflicts and let the chips fall where they may. As to YOUR comment Booth acted to late, I find that to be repulsive on your part. ___ I don’t like you ~Advocate~ and could care less if you have that opinion of me.
Wow, one article and all this unrelated discussion and acrimony. Reading the comments is an interesting study in contrasting ideas and philosophies, but why all the extraneous crap? Whenever I see the statement “a troll is among us” I feel like I am in elementary school. What a funny lot us ‘liberal’ readers of CD are. I’ll be back a month from now to add a pithy statement or two to the mix, but until then I barely have time to read the articles much less the endless commentary. Adios
Well I didn’t manage to make the corrections in the time allowed and a word “NOT” in a sentence should “NOT” be there.
“Insurng our government did fight it”, ___not did “NOT” fight it. ___ Oops.
Yep ~PBK~, that’s what trolls, or more appropriately, “detractors” attempt to do. DETRACT AND DISRUPT. That’s why some of us attempt to show them up and hope they depart and many have done just that.
1. Scene: cold block room w/single light bulb. CIA interrogation room. An Arab being waterboarded. The agent pouring the water says, “OK, Abdul, I’m gonna ask you one more time—Who set up 9/11?”. Abdul: “blubDickblubblub blubCheneyblubblub”. Second agent with a clip board, to a third agent with the video camera: “Eh, that’s what they all say the first few times…”.
The little mouse in the corner says, “Must be a conspiracy”….
There is a very dark and sad, but plausible case to be made that the secrecy and torturing is not to make the war less dangerous or shorter for our troops or safeguard national security, but to cover up, ferret out and neutralize evidence (9/11) or anyone who has first hand knowledge of who the perps are and how the whole thing unfolded. It may also be plausible that OBL is still free because he has arranged one of those “if anything happens to me” letters as in spy v. spy movies. Can anyone come up with a way to connect the dots that is less painful to patriotic sensibilities? I hope so, because thoughts of such deep treachery and treason are hard to bear.
Basic question: What would various perps do if they had the means and motive after pulling off 9/11? There are plenty of detectives, criminologists and psychologists out there who could speak to this conjecture. Let’s hear from some.
peace
Yeah ~Spartacus~ I know. I’m old and retired, it ain’t time to start the garden up so I sit here at this Chinese made computer and make a fool of myself. Think I should have put a comma there between up and so. Oh well, who really cares. Startin to look up here, that the Lizard banged his head against the wall once too often.
Thorry, KIM PATRICK. Did you bother to do any research other than parrot the crap churned out by the Ministry of “Education”? There’s plenty of documentation about “Honest Abe” (ROFLMAO) to refute any rose-tinted fairy tales. You say you’re retired? No excuse for such laziness, then. Although intellectual exercise can be much more tiresome at your age, I suppose.
What are you talking about ~Advocate~? Yeah I’ve read several history books, taught it once. You obviously have a different opinion of Lincoln than I do. Does that make you a wizard on the subject? I do believe I’m with the majority of Americans. Do have any memorials dedicated to you?
I believe if the south had been allowed to succeed and we had two seperate nations here, it would have been a damn mess. Other wars such as the one of 1812 may very likely have been the result. That’s my opinion, that was Linclon’s opinion. LINCOLN SAVED THE UNION and that’s a fact. Yet you wish to berate me for voicing that fact. You also believe Lincoln should have been assinated by Booth a lot sooner than he did. You’re an asshole, that’s another opinion I have.
I also realize Lincoln wished to ship all of the African Americans back to Africa. I believe that would have been immoral and wrong. I also do not believe slavery would have been abolished in the south, as you choose to believe. They were still treated as forth class citizens for the next hundred years in the south and second class in the north after being freed.
I also don’t worry about poor spelling and incorrect grammer from anyone here on this blogging site, as you do, and I don’t ever insult anyone for having that same opinion. You seem to primarily attack me and what is your point.
I get on Lizard’s case every time he starts his bullshit and have said why I do. He’s a detracting neo-con shill. Funny last week he was a Canadian, this week on another thread, he wrote he is going to vote for Nader, blah blah blah. He’s a nut case and your’re a soplistic jerk, like a Chimp as Spartacus noted and you claim YOUR posts are intellectual exercise. What a joke you are.
BTW, “Comma” what does the word THORRY mean? I am unfamiliar with the term. It isn’t in my dictionary. Did you err there ~Advocate~? Or do you have a better dictionary?
There is something wrong with you.
That’s the only post I’ve ever read of yours that may be correct ~Lizard~. But you really should check your mirror.
Well Ya see Lizard, ~Advocate~ posted a blog yesterday complaining about my spelling and use of commas. So I was making fun of it with her. As was Spartacus and his “nit pickng” comment. That blog of hers disappeared today, so my comments to her now make no sense. Yours make no sense all of the time.
ZZZZzzzzwwwinnnk - you hit that one in the red zone, KEM
SCuse me It waz not advocate, it were Ephriam who posted the spelling lessons. Oops. It stil dere tu.
It appears that Bush’s legacy will be remembered as the Fascist Administration:
http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html
“Intelligence Authorization Act.” What an oxymoron.
If only it were possible to have the torture advocates experience it themselves. They seem to forget that their sons and daughters venturing abroad in war, work or tourism may be in increased danger of being subjected to it if we set torture as the new acceptable standard for “civilized” nations of the world.