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No Future for Nuclear Energy
Here they go again. After thirty years without a firm order, the atomic power companies are pushing their radioactive, costly technology for a comeback on the backs of you the taxpayers.
The old argument in the Seventies was that nuclear powered electricity would reduce our dependence on foreign oil. With only three percent of our electricity coming from burning petroleum, the pro-nuke lobby is now jumping on the global warming bandwagon. Uranium, they argue, does not release greenhouse gases like coal or oil.
What nuclear lobbies ignore is all the coal and oil that needs to be burned to enrich uranium, to transport radioactive wastes with protective highway and rail convoys and provide security since they would be a priority target for sabotage.
Apart from that, let's start with the technological insanity of the nuclear fuel cycle-from uranium mines and their deadly tailings, to the refining and fabrication into fuel rods, to the multi-shielded dome-like nuclear plant, to the necessity for perfect operation of the facility, to the still unresolved problems of the location and containment of hot radioactive wastes and contaminated material for the next 200,000 years!
All this for one objective-to boil water into steam. A pretty complex chain of events in order to boil water. There are far better, cheaper ways to meet the electricity needs of today's generation without burdening future generations for centuries with the deadly waste products.
Back in the Seventies, before the public rose up and said no to nuclear power, helped by Wall Street's reluctance to finance these trouble-prone plants, the Atomic Energy Commission projected the construction of 1000 atomic power plants in the U.S. by the year 2000. There are today 103 plants.
Placing the predicted 100 plants up and down the California coastline would have been an act of peerless recklessness, especially given the earthquake faults.
Just this week, a magnitude 6.8 earthquake struck Kashiwazaki, Japan and disabled a gigantic nuclear power plant which the New York Times reported, "raised new concerns about the safety of the nation's accident-plagued nuclear industry." It turns out that this plant, owned by Tokyo Electric Power, may be sitting directly above an earthquake fault line.
Each day, reports show damage greater than believed the day before, including radiation leaks, damage to exhaust ducts, burst pipes and other "malfunctions" beyond the fires. Several hundred barrels of radioactive waste were toppled.
The problem with nuclear power is that it gets one bite of the apple.
Just one major meltdown could provoke a demand to close the industry down by overwhelming adverse public outrage. You see, way back in the Fifties and Sixties, the Atomic Energy Commission, a booster-regulatory agency for atomic power plants, estimated that an "area the size of Pennsylvania" would be contaminated in such a disaster.
Remember, Chernobyl in Ukraine is still surrounded by vacant towns and villages following the 1986 tragedy. Radioactivity found its way as far as sheep in England, nuts grown in Turkey and elsewhere.
Do you know any other industry producing electricity that has to have specific evacuation plans for miles around it, is inherently a national security risk, cannot be privately insured without Congress mandating severe limited liability in case of massive casualties and requires massive taxpayer subsidies?
A most concise, authoritative case against the electric atom was recently released titled "Why a Future for the Nuclear Industry is Risky" by a group of environmental health and social investment groups. (See www.cleanenergy.org)
In the introduction to the report, the case against nuclear energy was summarized this way: "Wind power and other renewable technologies, combined with energy efficiency, conservation and cogeneration can be much more cost effective and can be deployed much sooner than new nuclear power plants."
Yes indeed, efficiency or conservation, with a national mission, can cut in half the waste of energy, using currently available technology and know-how, before the first privately capitalized nuclear plant opens. One scientist once described the primary output of electric generating plants as "heating the heavens."
If this insensitive industry cannot be revived by Uncle Sam's tax treasury, Wall Street certainly has given no indication that private investment would take on the risk. Investment money is pouring presently into wind power, solar and other renewables and this is just the early springtime for these benign sources of energy.
The International Energy Agency sees a 25% cost reduction for wind power and a 50% cost reduction for solar photovoltaics from 2001 to 2020. Without Wall Street's private capital and with rising construction and operating costs in other countries, the prospect for nuclear power being competitive, even deducting decommissioning costs, and the many millennia of waste storage costs, is not there.
Add a major accident and you'll see, in addition to casualties and contaminated land and property, every private investor running for cover while the bill is passed on to taxpayers.
Here is a suggestion to put the industry's propaganda to rest. Will any high nuclear industry executive debate physicist Amory Lovins at the National Press Club filled with electric company leaders? If so, please visit http://www.rmi.org and contact Mr. Lovins.



134 Comments so far
Show AllI was replying with the cheery-noble bit to the blog of another who was just above it, it ain't there now.
There is also the little matter of the vastly underfunded insurance program. The nuclear electric power industry is suppose to be self insured, but the fund is SO underfunded that the U.S. Government tax payers may have to pick up a $500 billion tab if any one of the more than 100 nuclear power plants goes into melt down.
Ralph,
Please run for president so that I and others can vote for someone worthy of our vote. I will write in your name if you are not on the ballot in my state.
Yeh, run for president so the Democrats will have someone to blame when they cannot get the job done. For me, if 'none of the above' was a choice, that would be mine. The ignorance of the American Public leaves us unlikely to get a good man into office.
At no other than than now in our nation's history has there been a critical need for a third party run for all national offices. Nader needs to get back into the political fray. The Demon-Democrats have tried to squash any attempts by him or the Green Party to run candidates in this country for fear that the electorate will wake up and realize just what the Democratic leadership and DLC are. The Greens just announced plans at their national convention to attain ballot access in every state and the district of Columbia. Since the Democratic congress failed to check Bush and his war machine, the Green Party has seen a surge of growth in membership. Nader is too much of a national treasure to allow him to sit this one out. His vast knowledge on so many issues that effect our quality of life is the key to blowing the lid off our rigged electoral system, those who run it and their hidden agenda.
Ralph, your voice of intelligence and reason is needed more than ever to expose what is leading this country into ruin. Join with the Greens who already have ballot access in many states, an orgainization from coast to coast that speaks to progressive issues, and together, rather than divided, Greens, other progressives and you can achieve what Americans need right now. Lead a united front in 2008. Expose the corporate owned government and the special interests for what they are doing to America. Educate the masses who can't figure it out for themselves. Time is of the essence more than ever before.
After a democrat is elected president in 2008 and it turns out he or she isn't any better
than what's in there now, if you vote for Nader, you can say as I have for the last 30 years,
" Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him". In my 30 years of voting, I've never voted for a
winner yet. Maybe if I had voted for bush the last 2 times, we wouldn't be in this mess.
The total costs of nuclear energy are staggering.
The total costs of renewable energy are tiny in comparison.
The people have a right to know these total costs.
The people have a right to choose the better value.
Okay folks, don't touch your mouse,___ Billy__y4, the nuke fanatic and his cheering section, will be here shortly, live and in living black and white and filled with stupid wisdom.
Oh, we also will be hearng from the ex- Nader folks, who will say he cost Al Gore the election and those that say he didn't. Who else? This should be a good one, hope we learn some facts about why nuclear power is a wide awake, living nightmare.
gore the election.
RUDYJO says, "" Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him". In my 30 years of voting, I've never voted for a
winner yet. Maybe if I had voted for bush the last 2 times, we wouldn't be in this mess." Love the humor!
I'm still upset about Al Gore costing Ralph Nader the 2000 election. Gore is just an arrogant jack ass and egomaniac.
I'm sorry but Ralph is wrong along with being right. The reality people is that the world uses 85,000,000 b/d of liquid. This includes fossil, synth and ethanols. Let's just do the math bare with me...
85,000,000 barrels at 42 gallons per barrel is 3,570,000,000 gallons a day. There are 6,500,000,000 people on the earth and if the liquid was divided equally among them all each human would get .53 gallons of oil per day. Now food, transport, clothing, medicine, building materials, etc all require fossil fuel. Cooking a meal alone can require 1000's of calories of heat to cook even fewer calories of food.
The US population at 300,000,000 relies on 5 gallons or more per person per day based on all things oil. This alters the figure above greatly, observe. 300,000,000 * 5 = 1,500,000,000 gallons per day US. 3,570,000,000 gallons total global per day - 1,500,000,000 = 2,070,000,000 remaining gallons to be divided against the adjusted global population minus the US population at 6,427,909,368 = .32 gallons per day.
Reactors are dangerous however there is simply not enough liquid produced each day and that number is in decline. We are already using all of the alternatives and solid fuels as well and there is simply not enough energy for everyone. The entire industrial world is about to collapse since it is unable to meet the growing demands of the growing population.
We are not going to stop the pollution, we are not going to stop using energy and we are going to go off the cliff! Once again my deepest sympathies go out to all of you!
I hate math Sh@dow, but I bet you are right.
No argument against nuclear power is complete without the positive alternative.
Conservation is dirt cheap now. A negawatt is always cheaper than a carbon-generated megawatt.
Solar is getting cheaper. Wind is getting cheaper. If Vestas Wind doesn't drive down the cost per kilowatt-hour, maybe a startup like Mass Megawatts will. These are technologies that we know have a tiny carbon footprint and pay off nicely. Don't compare nuclear against where oil will be in ten years, compare it against where solar and wind technology will be in ten years.
The main argument against photovoltaics and wind is that the electricity is random and can't be stored. The truth is that we haven't bothered to store solar or wind electricity yet, but our electric utilities already store electricity for other reasons. A good example is the pumped hydroelectric storage plant at Storm King Mountain on the Hudson River north of New York City. Excess power from Niagara Falls pumps water uphill for storage at night, and they generate peak power in the daytime for NYC.
Sun is stored in plants, animals and fossil fuel!
No nukes...
Here is Bingham Mine...
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham2.html
Here is some equipment used there...
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham3.html
Here is what powers the mine (coal)...
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham4.html
All of the photovoltaics and turbines originate from mines. Currently 6 different metals can be used to make photo cells. They are all expensive and going into depletion like everything else. We do need to ration everything but it will not matter as humanity is going off the cliff!
http://www.dieoff.org/page125.htm
Nuclear power is a source that fits in well with the current corporate energy paradigm. Technically complicated, with a high capital cost, it is a nice fit for the people who have their hands on the world energy tap.
Whatis next? Probably government subsidies, and lots of magazine and news articles on "little spherical nuclear fuel pellets" etc.. etc... ad nauseaum and how safe and fantastic 21st century nuclear power is.
Ralph should do one on LNG next. LNG ports are being planned and constructed all over North America.
The corporate world must have a long term strategy to keep energy costs low enough to prevent outside competition.
High oil prices are a dilemma for the energy industry.
It is not in their long term interests for oil prices to be high, because it fosters new technologies, though the short term profits are very nice.
Nuclear power could be competitive if oil prices stay high, and as is necessary for central control - cannot be produced locally.
Its a similar situation to the agribus system-which is directly linked to cheap American energy. Basic food products will always be kept at a level low enough to prevent markets seeking alternative sources enmass.
Hello from the shadow of the US, where everything American becomes Australian.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/downer-open-to-talks-on-nuclear-pact-with-us/2007/07/20/1184560040260.html
Solar has lots of it's own problems with pollution created during manufacturing and reprocessing of batteries. Battery life makes it difficult, pollution aside to be competitive with current energy sources. Wind is not trouble free ecologically speaking and it takes one hell of a lot of windmills to replace current energy sources. Nuclear energy has an unbelievable number of problems outlined by this article. I heard one of Wall Street's leading energy experts interviewed on Bob Brinker's radio show a few months back. He contends that the U.S. energy policies or lack thereof is leading the U.S. full steam over the energy cliff and may take the rest of the wold with it. He is not some left winger but a guy who makes money for himself and other people by looking and analysing correctly the facts. He stated that the only hope is conservation. He gave the figures but basically nothing else adds up financially. Even if there were 200 nuclear power plants ordered today it would take a decade or more to get them on line.
1000s of these are in the works... (PBMR)...
http://web.mit.edu/pebble-bed/
On the other hand in Washington State 1,000,000+ gallons of HIGH LEVEL NUCLEAR WASTE made it to Washington's drinking water. Beyond that the big plan to get rid of all nuclear waste is to cast it in glass and drop it in the oceans!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/27/60minutes/main1553896.shtml
We don't have a chance folks so party like it's 1999
Yes, there is LNG which has not been getting a big foothold in the U.S. yet even though the Bush Administration has tried to clear the way for those ports. The problem is that a tanker full of LNG could take out a city if it ignited. Even when the ports were promised to be offshore the City and even States have prevented the installation of LNG ports in the U.S. Now there is a huge LNG port being built on the Baja peninsula and with the trade laws it will probably be difficult to stop shipment of LNG to the U.S.
sh@dow, don't worry Mt. St.Helen is going to erupt again and wash Hanford into the Columbia river licquifieng all their radio active waste containment vats thus making the area unlivable. Maybe the fish will make a comeback, they might glow for awhile
LNG = Liquefied Natural Gas\\
The Natural Gas that is also running out is liquefied (at a net loss) and put on special ships that bring it to the US. It is 1000s of times more explosive so special ports need to be constructed (at a net loss).
So you were talking LNG?
Our only real hope to survive would be to be saved by space men!
One nuclear waste products that our childkilling babybutchers really love is Depleated Uranium. How many megatons have we used to maim millions for eternity?
Shadow,___ how about space wemon?
I have lived most of my life next to the Hanford Nuclear reservation where, for years, the local mantra was that there was no problem with waste and contamination. Once the money for new reactors dried up someone discovered there was lots of money to be made in cleanup. So, I hope the vast sums currently going to Bechtel to build the vitrification plant, as well as other cleanup projects, are part of everyone's Solar VS Nuclear math.
As to the economics of Solar, I recall the "clothesline paradox" (something I first heard explained in the late 70s). When someone develops a high tech solar solution like photovoltaic panels that can be metered then it is recognized and dismissed as prohibitively expensive, but when you dry your clothes on a line it is not measured or generally recognized as a contribution to our energy needs. There are perhaps a hundred other examples but they require individual lifestyles changes and not new industries or other measurable contributions to the economy.
Evelyn Smith July 21st, 2007 10:21 pm
You can be my spacewoman if you want!
We don't need windmills to use the winds energy, the solar/wind Power Towers Australia and China are building will suffice.
On a twenty square mile of land, we could build enough towers to provide the electrical needs for ten million homes. Their free energy could also be used to crack sea water and make hydrogen fuel inexpensive. There would be no dangerous waste, no pollution, less energy and materials required to construct than to build a single nuke plant.
clean burning hydrogen fuel woud end the need for oil to gas our vehicles.
We could have dozens of those type plants in several areas of the country, interconnected to power grids now used by the the hydro electric dams. We could also start using geo-thermal and tide power, which is readily available and in our country is not used.
It is not only foolish for us to ignore those sources of energy, it is a crime. The crime is, we instead use air fouling coal and dangerous nuclear energy to suit our needs.
Well, the big boys don't own the sun or the wind and until they do,__ hold your breath, because the air is full of poison and it ain't gonna stop._____ Unless we stop it.
Evelyn Smith July 21st, 2007 10:41 pm
Optimism is very optimistic!
I suffer from hallitosis shadow___ Everyone else I talk to suffers also. I'm bald too. Better wait for the spaceship buddy. Might be full of Paris Hiltons, you could teach them how to parralel park.
Sh@dow, is there any way, in your opinion, of achieving justice for humans and the other life forms? What have you chosen to do with your life--if its pointless--because we're going off the cliff? I'm serious. I've likened our behavior to lemmings. I just keep working on peace and solving the GHG problem, hoping...
Something I read, either here on Common Dreams, or on a closely-linked site, suggested that the only ways out of this mess will be either a military which refuses the administration or a federal civil service which does so.
There may be a third way -- a class of scientists, thinkers, scholars, professionals, etc. which refuses to embark on bad ideas, to be a part of them, to further them, etc. In other words, they brain-drain them, by their absence.
The fact that so many top-FEMA/Homeland administration positions are vacant, that groups like the Union of Concerned Scientists have (unfortunately) had to become politicized because of today's realities, etc. suggests that the best act any bright young physics scholar can do is to research something like clean solar, hydrogen, or some other form of power -- and abandon the fission mission like the plague that it is. Brain drain them. If they can't get anyone who knows what the hell he's doing, they'll become anachronisms.
Hope is a nice four letter word, with no action, it is just that, a nice four letter word. Most of us Lemmings have neither.
shadow may have a better answer. Probably does.
Paul Bramscher said:
>There may be a third way — a class of scientists, thinkers, scholars,
>professionals, etc. which refuses to embark on bad ideas, to be a part of
>them, to further them, etc. In other words, they brain-drain them, by
>their absence.
In my experience, such people are always in favor of using some technology to get us out of a hole, i.e. "better living through science." And they're mostly pro-nuclear power. I think the folks who were thinking of getting into science, or who were at one time in science, who were anti-nuclear, changed their mind and got out. Maybe I'm wrong.
Reading all of this, I think I see a new film for Michael Moore!!
Depends on how you measure cheaper. With containment & real estate costs projected into the centuries/milennia, it's hard to beat nuclear for being the absolutely most expensive form of energy from a TCO perspective.
As for better, my bet goes to the most common element in the universe (hydrogen). Either directly (hydrogen power) or indirectly (solar).
Jen July 21st, 2007 11:13 pm
Sh@dow, is there any way, in your opinion, of achieving justice for humans and the other life forms? What have you chosen to do with your life–if its pointless–because we're going off the cliff? I'm serious. I've likened our behavior to lemmings. I just keep working on peace and solving the GHG problem, hoping…
The best way to address you is with a link since I don't want to be the bearer of bad tithes.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5267640865741878159&q=The+History+of+Oil&total=790&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Its a long video!
Folks keep on mentioning MONEY
The USA is $9TRILLION in the hole and we are in a dictatorship and import all of our energy and our money is WORTHLESS as it is backed by NOTHING
Economic collapse is here along with chronic depression!
Did any of you know that this happened the other day?
http://truthorlies.org/govtarticle0131.html
U.S. Treasury Holds Disaster Drill in Tampa Bay
They are getting ready for a RUN ON THE BANK
"Solar has lots of it's own problems with pollution created during manufacturing and reprocessing of batteries. Battery life makes it difficult, "
The solution is for humanity to resume going to sleep at sundown and rising at dawn. Everyone is right about there not being enough clean energy to sustain out current lifestyles.
Shadow,__if we do have a depression, it will be a very quick end of the United States. If we don't, it will take awhile longer at the rate we are now going. ____Buttt, for the present, Billy___y4 has arrived.___ Yippeee.
Billy and I have some fun fun here, he thinks I may be insane and I am certain that he is, cause he works for a nuke facility.__ Nice guys can be wacko.
Okie Dokie Bill,__ here is the latest ADMITTED info, on the "minor" problems at the Japenese nuke facility. First, the sloshed, radioatively contaminated water you mentioned, was six hundred gallons. Sooo, just squegee it into the Sea of japan. It helps to tenderize the shushi and dopes up the whales for easier killing. I had a great big broiled whale steak dinner in Ashiya Japan once in 1960,__ yum yum.
Next? The barrels of radioactive waste that tipped over and many spilled their contents,__ was?__ It was 400 barrels, no report of what the actual contents were. Clothing, shoes, sox, undies, komonoes, jock straps? Those items would be assumptions. The drums may have held plutonium or some other nice poison. We just don't know__ and we likely never will.
We have had quake damage to nuclear facilities here in the
United States, and most of us never hear of them. One good example of one, was at the Dresden plant in Illinois and liquid radioactive waste seeped into the ground water.
And another minor event at that time and place, oh__ that was hazardous radioactive isotopes, cobalt-60 and chromium-51, were emitted into the atmosphere. How much?? We will never find out.
The monstrous underground, and hidden from our wondering eyes proposed nuclear storage site, at Yucca mountain, we are working so diligently on and pouring billions into, is right on a spot where two earthquake faluts intersect, and a 5.4 jolt hit just ten miles from the site in 1992. There are more than a dozen fault lines in the area and that is a fact. All of what is written here, except the whale steak dinner and our being insane is documented, it's un-arguable.
Those are just a couple of more than a hundred extreme danger areas, extreme when it comes to the local of nuclear power plants and where nucler waste sites are presently located. Those are also wonderful examples of really swift thinking and planning ahead, when dealing with the most dangerous and forever lasting poisons known to exsist in the universe.
One could fill this blog with this type of verified scary data, that would wear our mouses out scrolling down to the end. So I will stop here and shut my ever running mouth_____for awhile. Sorry if my writing is not that of a technical engineer type,__ but it should be understoodable, I get it anyway. ___Later Bill, and hurry back.__ Kem Patrick
You ever heard of Cheery-Noble? You ever heard of the mess at the Palisades and Silkwood and a dozen other places? Of course not. A major disaster WILL happen, maybe tonight, tomorrow, or next year. It will happen. Then you may have a much different opinion.
I and many others have chosen to subvert the dominant paradigm. You can too! Be the change you wish to see in the world.
The USA solution currently in the works is to kill everyone that is not with "US" and spread DU dust to generally shorten lives and cause sterility! Essentially, wide scale eugenics is being used to thin the herd along with a global restructuring.
Since the "dust bowl" is making another appearance here in the US and since the global population of honey bees seems to be under attack (down to almost a 1/3) from a Chinese mite who's name escapes me. In order to cope with a changing climate science has made GM crops and these produce their own pesticides along with lower water and fertilizer demands.
Now the assumption that we can "fix" any of this is erroneous at best. There is not one thing that we haven't screwed up and I can think of anything we have actually fixed. There was some math I did regarding liquid fuels above; there is more math regarding a unit called a "calorie." If we cease using nuclear we will be forced to burn more and more coal. Once coal goes into decline (that will come soon) we will take another energy step backward and be forced to burn wood! Mass extinction will likely happen between those events.
The Reindeer of St. Matthew Island ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Reindeer+of+St.+Matthew+Island&spell=1 )experiment is the most probable model of our true future and it is inevitable that humanity would face extinction but it just so happens that the combination of resource depletion and population overshoot will take us out. In a last minute sort of way we packed for a trip but got to the airport and realized we left our tickets home!
SHADOW says, "The USA is $9TRILLION in the hole and we are in a dictatorship and import all of our energy and our money is WORTHLESS as it is backed by NOTHING>" Not exactly nothing, bro... US military is a lot like the mafia's hit men, that go out to make sure all profits remain skimmed off the top of everyone else's industries (on a global scale). Now if the Bush wars of lopsided reasoning cause a collapse in our military, then the rebound will be felt. Without $, there is no mercenary force to buy... right now I don't think China, Japan and other nations can afford NOT to bail the US out as their economies are linked with ours. If the Iran matter heats up, enough nations may choose to pull the plug for lots of reasons, nuclear emissions among them. NOT a pretty scenario in blood or treasure.
Siouxrose July 22nd, 2007 10:04 am
Again our money is backed by NOTHING. Plunder, empire and the rest have failed time and again. If we are talking about money then we must remember that ours is in reality worth 1 RED CENT per dollar. Many years ago the gold and silver backed certificates were eliminated and that was the moment when our true wealth was stolen. Since then everything is about BS.
It was good of you to point out that our military is actually a band of looting marauders plundering the wealth of the Middle East. Our Constitution clearly defines the limitations and operation of our militias for defense. With no formal declaration of war and no truth to the allegations about WMD and responsibility for 9-11 it is clear that our paid professional warriors are swashbuckling it in a sea of sand!
I'm on the wrong site, I thught this was the nuclear power debate.
The Nuclear Industries push for more Nuclear plants is simply a temporary grab for High profits. There simply isn't enough available raw fissionable material to support a long running Nuclear energy program.
The result of such a short term program would be more Corporate Profits and high Public costs, and deadly Nuclear pollution lasting in relative Human life spans forever!
A KNESAL ..... "Liberal Warrior' ..... "Little Beirut"
When money is the bottom line, you can forget safety! Talk about all the safety tech stuff you like, nuclear accidents are coming our way. I think using less energy is the beginning of many answers to the energy question. Yea, I'm hangng my clothes on the line too. We could turn off half the street lights..... There are some things we could do, right quick. But there are many many things that need to change, big time, life styles, gadets we don't need. We are addicted to energy! Ya think maybe the bottom is near?
Link to 'Available Material Article'
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070321092710.htm