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Secret US and Afghanistan Talks Could See Troops Stay for Decades
Russia, China and India concerned about 'strategic partnership' in which Americans would remain after 2014
American and Afghan officials are locked in increasingly acrimonious secret talks about a long-term security agreement which is likely to see US troops, spies and air power based in the troubled country for decades.
US-Afghanistan security negotiations continue despite Hillary Clinton saying recently that Washington did not want any 'permanent bases in Afghanistan'. (Photograph: Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images) Though not publicised, negotiations have been under way for more than a month to secure a strategic partnership agreement which would include an American presence beyond the end of 2014 – the agreed date for all 130,000 combat troops to leave — despite continuing public debate in Washington and among other members of the 49-nation coalition fighting in Afghanistan about the speed of the withdrawal.
American officials admit that although Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, recently said Washington did not want any "permanent" bases in Afghanistan, her phrasing allows a variety of possible arrangements.
"There are US troops in various countries for some considerable lengths of time which are not there permanently," a US official told the Guardian.
British troops, Nato officials say, will also remain in Afghanistan long past the end of 2014, largely in training or mentoring roles.
Although they will not be "combat troops" that does not mean they will not take part in combat. Mentors could regularly fight alongside Afghan troops, for example.
Senior Nato officials also predict that the insurgency in Afghanistan will continue after 2014.
There are at least five bases in Afghanistan which are likely candidates to house large contingents of American special forces, intelligence operatives, surveillance equipment and military hardware post-2014. In the heart of one of the most unstable regions in the world and close to the borders of Pakistan, Iran and China, as well as to central Asia and the Persian Gulf, the bases would be rare strategic assets.
News of the US-Afghan talks has sparked deep concern among powers in the region and beyond. Russia and India are understood to have made their concerns about a long-term US presence known to both Washington and Kabul. China, which has pursued a policy of strict non-intervention beyond economic affairs in Afghanistan, has also made its disquiet clear. During a recent visit, senior Pakistani officials were reported to have tried to convince their Afghan counterparts to look to China as a strategic partner, not the US.
American negotiators will arrive later this month in Kabul for a new round of talks. The Afghans rejected the Americans' first draft of a strategic partnership agreement in its entirety, preferring to draft their own proposal. This was submitted to Washington two weeks ago. The US draft was "vaguely formulated", one Afghan official told the Guardian.
Afghan negotiators are now preparing detailed annexes to their own proposal which lists specific demands.
The Afghans are playing a delicate game, however. President Hamid Karzai and senior officials see an enduring American presence and broader strategic relationship as essential, in part to protect Afghanistan from its neighbours.
"We are facing a common threat in international terrorist networks. They are not only a threat to Afghanistan but to the west. We want a partnership that brings regional countries together, not divides them," said Rangin Spanta, the Afghan national security adviser and the lead Afghan negotiator on the partnership.
Dr Ashraf Ghani, a former presidential candidate and one of the negotiators, said that, although Nato and the US consider a stable Afghanistan to be essential to their main strategic aim of disrupting and defeating al-Qaida, a "prosperous Afghanistan" was a lesser priority. "It is our goal, not necessarily theirs," he said.
Though Ghani stressed "consensus on core issues", big disagreements remain.
One is whether the Americans will equip an Afghan air force. Karzai is understood to have asked for fully capable modern combat jet aircraft. This has been ruled out by the Americans on grounds of cost and fear of destabilising the region.
Another is the question of US troops launching operations outside Afghanistan from bases in the country. From Afghanistan, American military power could easily be deployed into Iran or Pakistan post-2014. Helicopters took off from Afghanistan for the recent raid which killed Osama bin Laden.
"We will never allow Afghan soil to be used [for operations] against a third party," said Spanta, Afghanistan's national security adviser.
A third contentious issue is the legal basis on which troops might remain. Afghan officials are keen that any foreign forces in their country are subject to their laws. The Afghans also want to have ultimate authority over foreign troops' use and deployment.
"There should be no parallel decision-making structures ... All has to be in accordance with our sovereignty and constitution," Spanta said.
Nor do the two sides agree over the pace of negotiations. The US want to have agreement by early summer, before President Barack Obama's expected announcement on troop withdrawals. This is "simply not possible," the Afghan official said.
There are concerns too that concluding a strategic partnership agreement could also clash with efforts to find an inclusive political settlement to end the conflict with the Taliban. A "series of conversations" with senior insurgent figures are under way, one Afghan minister has told the Guardian.
A European diplomat in Kabul said: "It is difficult to imagine the Taliban being happy with US bases [in Afghanistan] for the foreseeable future."
Senior Nato officials argue that a permanent international military presence will demonstrate to insurgents that the west is not going to abandon Afghanistan and encourage them to talk rather than fight.
The Afghan-American negotiations come amid a scramble among regional powers to be positioned for what senior US officers are now describing as the "out years".
Mark Sedwill, the Nato senior civilian representative in Afghanistan, recently spoke of the threat of a "Great Game 3.0" in the region, referring to the bloody and destabilising conflict between Russia, Britain and others in south west Asia in the 19th century.
Afghanistan has a history of being exploited by — or playing off — major powers. This, Dr Ghani insisted, was not "a vision for the 21st century". Instead, he said, Afghanistan could become the "economic roundabout" of Asia.
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51 Comments so far
Show AllHow else would our greedy, corporate war-profiteering beneficiaries of taxpayer ripoffs make more money?
They can't make such obscene profits from funding social programs that may or may not get funded with money saved by withdrawing.
Just watch the debate over Libya...now costing us $2M a day right into these blatantly war-mongering, war-profiteering pockets.
"Although they will not be "combat troops" that does not mean they will not take part in combat."
Ahh... a perfect example of Newspeak...
I did not intend my statement to be factual...
You nailed it, curmudeon99! Have you seen the War is a Crime website? They are organizing a huge group of peace activist organizations and individuals in a coalition of 50,000 or more. They will go to D.C. in mid-October and are committed to stay there for 3 days or more, whatever it takes, to have our demand to end the wars, NOW, stop allowing torture, and stop keeping "detainees" in prison without charges against them or legal counsel. I was hoping for positive change fromObama. It seems our only hope is that a strong, progressive 3rd party will emege; one that represents "the people".
Gee, US Troops occupying Afghanistan for decades. Who would ever have suspected it. I am just so shocked. Shocked, I say. Not.
Good lord, this isn't even newsworthy. This is like a headline on the front page of the NY Times reading "the sun is hot."
"I thought it was just something for the troops to do until they got sent home"
I not sure if Jill and Demon's comments are supposed be humorous, but I got a belly laugh out of the dark sarcasm. Got to keep a sence of humour, you know.
Ah yes, once the deal with the devil (Corporate Swine) is cut and blood is spilled to seal the contract there will be no turning back. There are souls to collect and profits to be made. The graveyard of empires is just another circle in hell for the swine. They are use to it and nothing will change them because their souls, their humanity, are gone. Yes it is make work for the troops, stacking the bodies and setting them on fire so no one can get an accurate count of who's dead and who isn't. That's how the soul collection business works.
And as for the troops coming home, let's forget that too. It will cost too much to rehab them to make them once again human and fit for society. They have gone over there and lost themselves and pieces of themselves to that place and they will forever remain there. Even though they come home they will not be home. No matter what they may desire in more sane moments they will be there forever. Their souls purchased by the corporations, their morality smashed against the rocks of general orders and countless firefights. They'll never come back.
Let's spend like madmen the dollars we haven't even made yet on wars and economic collapse and drug wars and oil and oil and oil until there is nothing left but a dream like a bad taste in the mouth on a wet cloudy morning. The feeling of nothing that comes from the deepest of addictions. Let's lift our cups full of blasphemies and the blood of real humans and drink a toast to the Swine and their superior ways and we can live in peace with them, as serfs wearing away our fingernails as we scratch at the earth in hopes that it will give us the sustenance we so desperately need in dark times when even our friends have become our enemies.
To all you good teachers out there and other public servants who need pay raises (and secure) jobs: The Pentagon has your money. Take your grievances to them and Hillary.
Typical US bait and switch.
"Buy Obama Brand bullshit. Now with twenty percent more Fraudulin!"
Thanks for the chuckle, Galen. We need more of it as a way to help sooth our psychological wounds. Whenever I start to pity myself for having to think these horrible thoughts, I'm reminded of Bradley Manning, families of dead soldiers and innocent civilians, children with missing limbs. Compared to their suffering, mine is rather superficial.
Here's one you inspired:
Methinks the B O portends something rotten in ... the US.
Four out of five doctors recommend Obama Brand bullshit.
This statement is incorrect:
"President Hamid Karzai and senior officials see an enduring American presence and broader strategic relationship as essential, in part to protect Afghanistan from its neighbours."
Correct would be:
President Hamid Karzai and senior officials see an enduring American presence and broader strategic relationship as essential, in part to protect Karzai and his fellow keptocrats from their own people.
True that.
But it makes me wonder why Ahmed Chalabi has recently started saying he wants the U.S. out of Iraq. I guess the Shiia kleptocrats there have, with U.S. help, ethnically cleansed enough of the Sunni from the power centers so that they don't need US troops to get their backs while their paramilitaries do such "cleansing" anymore. Then again, Ahmed's calculations about the direction the US occupation of Iraq would take have always been self-serving and never correct.
Another never-ending war in order to make a deal with the Taliban and keep Indian influence out while insuring Pakistani-Chinese dominance in Afghanistan.
If this is true, I hope Barack Obama is impeached. This is just sick!
Unlikely. He's not boinking the help.
In official (i.e., Orwellian) American English "Leaving" means "Staying."
In the plain, unvarnished vernacular: "We lost the day we started and we win the day we stop."
America currently has the most stupid and venal government since the one that immediately preceded it.And the prospects for the next American government look even more disastrous, no matter how the "horse race" election charade plays out on your television device.
Cheney predicted a "multi-generation", possibly 20 year engagement. If I recall correctly. Get out the check-book.
Didn't Cheney predict 50 years.
The good news is that the MFSOB cheney will be dead soon and unable to "see" his predictions validated from the depths of hell.
Yes DICK, you disgusting glom of failing, decaying, dying flesh and evil, you are DYING. It TERRIFIES you and we are so happy about that.
I'm not so sure that Dick Cheney will be dead soon. You do know that he is now a pulseless bionic hybrid? I've heard speculation that he may be on the heart transplant waiting list. That would be a wasted of a valuable organ that someone more deserving than Cheney could benefit from.
Rumsfeld. He called it "the long war."
To be fair, the British were there off and on again for nearly 150 years. Now its the next Empire's turn with all the Empire's horses and all the Empire's men. Graveyard of empires cannot come soon enough.
I might have suggested this before, but I hope all of us will take just a few minutes each week to send a letter, send an email, and call the White House and our reps in Congress, demanding an end to the insane wars, NOW and to invest the savings in turning our economy around with clean energy businesses and infrastructure repair and replacement. Cutting important social programs won't help at all. Confront those politicians who try to convince us of that!
Every time I try that I get a form letter back
Direct democracy
Me too. And most of the time the form letter isn't even on the right topic.
Damn this US Government!
It continues to fuck the whole World.
Once the U.S. military went in and built bases they had no intention of leaving.
Just like the US military bases in Germany, Italy, Japan and Philipines established after WWII continue to exist 50+ years later, the middle eastern military bases will remain for another 50+ years.
The plan from day one!
Maybe, but I think this empire will crumble in the next 1 or two decades. Then they wont be able to afford the imperial overreach.
I think the elites that are really running this world will prop up the US if it ran out of money. Behind the bilderbergs, I heard there was 7 people really running the world. How can you explain all those countries letting the US invade any country it wants or keeping their bases in their countries.
It doesn't make any sense. Look at the 'coalition of the willing' that helped the US commit war crimes. Little countries that are indebted to the IMF.
The US isn't going away. It will become more militant with any serf that doesn't tow the company line in labor camps.
Off topic, but Hillary sure isn't aging well. With all that money, she can't get a decent haircut?
This is for control of oil flowing to India and China. Hostage taking again?
Let's see now, I want to make sure I have this right.
We invade a country, smash its government, put in a puppet government that stays in power only because we are there. We are supposed to leave, but instead, we have talks with our puppets, who ask us to stay forever so they won't be overthrown.
This then becomes a reason to stay and oppress the people for the puppets (and our MICC).
Same for Iraq, soon Libya and probably Pakistan. We still have our sights set on Persia (excuse me, Iran), and probably Syria.
We the serfs will be required to drag our homeless, hungry, sick bodies off to the munitions factories to build for the war machine. Those who wish a full belly and some medical care will be urged to "be all you can be" as cannon fodder for the Empire.
Arbeit macht frei! (Sound familiar?)
A thought, I wonder if the KBR no-bid concentration camps are near any of our arms factories? Just wondering...
The whole purpose of invading Afghanistan was to effect and maintain a presence there permanently. That was it. There's nothing to 'win' there -there never was, nor was there ever an expectation of 'winning' anything.
Oil pipelines.
There were proposed natural gas and oil pipeline routes through Afghanistan since many years before 2001, but they are all over a thousand miles long, and have never been militarily defensible over periods of several to many years from the dozens of factions in the region who are constantly provoking or warring with each other. Anyone with an RPG or shoulder fired rocket can disrupt such pipelines under cover of darkness in bad weather anywhere along their route at any time, repeatedly. No empire has ever taken and held a supply route through Afghanistan, though many have tried. The British tried three times and failed and they were far better at empire than the U.S. will survive long enough to be.
Sanctuary,
You are correct. Many have forgotten that US intelligence agencies had known long ago preceding 9/11 that the Soviet Union during it's invasion and occupation of Afghanistan had found that Afghanistan has a wast wealth of natural resources that include valuable precious metals. The permanent occupation of Afghanistan is an expression of American Empire under the guise of national security with the ultimate goal to gain access to Afghanistan's valuable resources and thus deprive nations such as Russia, China and India from access to those resources.
Even with it's occupation of Afghanistan, the United States is going to lose out to China, Russia, India, and other countries. The Chinese have already made a commitment to building the transportation infrastructure such as roads and railroads necessary to support the mining industry in Afghanistan when it becomes more secure.
The smell of QUAGMIRE in Afghanistan is unmistakeable. The light isn't at the end of the tunnel.
Man! With the covert thinking and bad attitude of this administration on the whole Afghan/Iraq mess (which is just a continuation of the Cheney/Bush legacy), it is hard not to press for a DECENT Third Party to seek seats in all state delegations to both the Senate and House and a new administration (and definitely NOT the tea Party). We need a Peoples' Progressive Peace Party to take the reins of government away from both the Repuglicans and the Democrats who are getting to the point that it is increasingly difficult to tell the difference brtween them. They are both beholden to the uber-rich, the barons of industry and the military as well as the petrol and health conglomerates. It is time for the people of this country to take control and right the ship of state before we go belly-up!
"It is time for the people of this country to take control and right the ship of state before we go belly-up!"
I think the "Poseidon Adventure" has come to call already.
Burke sez: "... a strategic partnership agreement which would include an American presence beyond the end of 2014 ..."
and then:
"Senior Nato officials also predict that the insurgency in Afghanistan will continue after 2014."
***
Cause, meet effect. Effect, cause. I believe the two of you have a lot in common.
The reasons and half-assed "pointings at" for the U.S. and NATO to stay in Afghanistan in this article are all easily assailed and dance around whatever the core reasons truly are. This war has been treated that way almost universally by US and British politicians and press for many years now. The Germans have always been very suspicious of this war for good reason. The strategic "reasons" advanced publicly are vapor ware.
China has a mining concession in Afghanistan and is our largest creditor and may have pushed us to defend that mining interest in return for loan guarantees. That is the single strongest reason that I can understand why the U.S. would want to remain there. Afghanistan was in recent years discovered to be a treasure trove of minerals. That is the second strongest reason.
Any natural gas or oil pipeline that ran through Afghanistan would extend over a thousand miles and would be impossible to militarily defend for extended periods of time from all the warring factions in the region. This same problem would make mining transport difficult if not impossible to defend for years on end. We have no intention of rebuilding or otherwise economically or politically stabilizing this country, let alone "democratizing" it, and never have.
It would be a good forward staging area to launch attacks into Iran, which is one reason why our Dim/GOP/Bagger right-wing would love to keep us there. But there is no benefit for Afghanistan in this. Kuwait and Bahrain are better staging areas for attacks into the Persian Gulf, which is one reason why Obomber is ignoring the ongoing war crimes of Bahrain's ruling Sunnis against their Shiite population.
Afghanistan cannot effectively be used to "control" or stabilize Pakistan for the same reasons that we do not rebuild and stabilize Afghanistan itself: We don't care about the people of the region, only controlling or brokering deals to extract their resources. I've no doubt the Pentagon has had contingency plans for years to briefly invade to seize Pakistan's nukes the minute it does become too unstable. Then we will sit back and let Pakistan rip itself to shreds while our military warms its feet at the flames.
The article says: "In the heart of one of the most unstable regions in the world and close to the borders of Pakistan, Iran and China, as well as to central Asia and the Persian Gulf, the [Afghan - metal] bases would be rare strategic assets."
But our military presence in Afghanistan has only further destroyed that country and destabilized it and Pakistan, and arguably, with our covert war, Iran-- although if one throws in Iranian influenced, Shiite dominated Iraq (dominated by Shiites because the U.S. installed them in power), that destabilization is mutual.
The article says, "...senior Pakistani officials were reported to have tried to convince their Afghan counterparts to look to China as a strategic partner, not the US."
This quote from the article supports my point that the U.S. presence in Afghanistan has only destabilized Pakistan socially and politically. But it also shows how deeply withdrawn inside their economically unsustainable, endless war fantasy bubble our political elite and military class have become--stoned out of their greedy, power hungry, careerist minds on their own anti-diplomatic resource/militarism propaganda about Afghanistan, whose resources and pipeline routes are militarily AND fiscally indefensible. Their "foreign policy" here is a schizophrenic over-extended retreat from reality in the graveyard of empires--and they've psychotically pulled the ladder up after themselves inside their own bubble.
The only way they can afford to maintain this "great game" do-over delusion is by piling continent-loads of debt on future generations of below-upper-middle-class Americans and Brits for many decades to come--to placate and further enrich a handful of politically influential, resource extractor/plutocrats. Anyone actually familiar with the history of Britain's, Russia's and several of their regional stooges' "Great Game" in Central Asia knows what a long-term, abject, strategically pointless failure it was. It cost plenty of blood and treasure and secured no great territorial or resource gains for any of the nations who played it.
Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Russia, China, Turkey and Pakistan are all placing resource/security side bets on the impending collapse of the Amurkan empire. Two of them are our major creditors and one of them is a critical supplier of imported oil. America has sold itself enough self-delusion rope and is knotting it up to hang itself with it.
"Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Russia, China, Turkey and Pakistan are all placing resource/security side bets on the impending collapse of the Amurkan empire"
Don't leave out the "India" in BRIC.
I haven't read much on India placing those side bets. Can you point at some sources?
"We are facing a common threat in international terrorist networks. They are not only a threat to Afghanistan but to the west. We want a partnership that brings regional countries together, not divides them," said Rangin Spanta, the Afghan national security adviser and the lead Afghan negotiator on the partnership.
"We will never allow Afghan soil to be used [for operations] against a third party," said Spanta, Afghanistan's national security adviser.
"A third contentious issue is the legal basis on which troops might remain. Afghan officials are keen that any foreign forces in their country are subject to their laws. The Afghans also want to have ultimate authority over foreign troops' use and deployment."
"There should be no parallel decision-making structures ... All has to be in accordance with our sovereignty and constitution," Spanta said.
Taking these statements one by one:
(1) Ten years of U.S. occupation of Afghanistan and covert operations and drone bombings in next door Pakistan have only led to worsening destruction, factionalization and destabilization of the economies and political systems in those countries and a resurgent opium trade inside Afghanistan. Moreover, U.S. foreign policy cannot even bring countries in Central and South America together, let alone the Middle East and Central Asia.
The U.S. is too single-mindedly ruthless about controlling resources or their supply routes, "free trade" treaty exploitation of foreign agriculture & privatization of foreign strategic mineral and water resources, and has lied far too often about related benefits for "the people" of the countries it militarily and economically buddies up to--wherein crooked regime leaders and their selected cronies are typically the only "client nation" citizens who substantially benefit from these relationships. It's about to do it again in Columbia.
(2) The U.S. has dozens of bases in the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa from which it launches overt and covert military and espionage attacks into multiple nations in these regions. What makes Afghan officials think Afghanistan would be treated any differently in terms of being just another U.S. forward base for force projection into nearby countries?
(3) The U.S. and Britain will NEVER give any Afghan government "ultimate authority" over the use and deployment of U.S. and British forces inside Afghanistan--just as it has never done in ANY country. The entire GOP in Congress would have a spontaneous aneurysm. The U.S. laid out the neo-conservative model to exempt U.S. forces and mercenaries from Iraqi laws when it invaded Iraq in 2003. Anyone remember the Coalition Provisional Authority and the vast lawless "Coalition of the Willing" military sweeps of tens of thousands of adult and child citizens of Iraq into U.S. and British prisons and open air prison camps there between 2003 and 2005? How about the U.S. military kidnapping of who knows how many Iraqi women to extort their men to surrender to U.S. forces for interrogation--dishonoring the women even to their own families. America doesn't give a shit about any Afghan constitution. Hell, it doesn't even give a shit about its own Constitution.
Mr. Spanta and Afghan officials who voice such hopes regarding a deal with America are either already on the take from the Pentagon or even more deluded than non-DLC Democrats who would re-elect Barrack Obama.
The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were never intended to be short term but designed instead to surround Iran in preparation for a secret war which is well underway in that country and will end with the overthrowing of that government as a favor to the criminal regimes in Israel and Saudi Arabia.
Iran is a nation of some 70 million people and any U.S. full attack on it would overthrow the present Iranian government yielding another failed State crawling with multiple armed factions including brand spanking new and growing Shiite jihadi movements (who would, no doubt, love to fight with older Sunni jihadi movements).
We would have no intention of rebuilding, democratizing or truly stabilizing it just as we haven't in Iraq and Afghanistan. Securing pipelines out of Iran would be increasingly problematic to impossible over time--same as in Afghanistan.
Our number one creditor, China, would not benefit from that scenario with Iran bordering it and is pushing back on multiple fronts. If we go through with such an attack, which will further destabilize the Middle East and Central Asia, we can expect the RIC portion of the BRIC nations whose borders are contiguous with Iran to escalate policies to seriously undermine the already self-destabilized U.S. economy and broker many more separate oil, resource and one-to-one currency exchange deals with the growing list of nations alienated by run amok U.S. neo-liberal imperialism.
With the Arab Spring rebellions just begun and non-violent Egyptian and Syrian protesters already being shot to death by Israeli Defense Forces for protesting at the borders, Israel's days are numbered simply because of the violent reactionary ferocity of its extremist "leaders." They don't know how to cope with non-violence except with extreme violence and they will turn more and more Egyptians, Syrians and other Muslims against them while the U.S. empire weakens until the tipping point when they pounce on Israel and consign it to the dustbin of history where it has belonged since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by one of their own right-wing nut cases who the Israeli people then elevated into power.
Let's be honest - we won't leave unless Israel tells us to leave...
which will be about, oh... when Israel is finally dissolved, which is the only solution given the virulence of Zionism.
"Secret US and Afghanistan Talks Could See Troops Stay for Decades"
No surprise there...
NATO's so mired in Afghanistan now that it's safe to say out loud the forces are there to stay.
People have gotten used to the thought that it's "irresponsible" to withdraw. "The war must go on - can't catch 'Vietnam-syndrome' again..."
"Afghanistan could become the "economic roundabout" of Asia."
That actually makes sense. Geographically it's ideally placed. - Hope those Afghans-Pashtuns can rig it.
the troops go with the poppy fields...
if the poppies are in Afghanistan, then so are the troops...
why would troops care about poppies?
Indeed...