Klein: In War on Terror, Are You Next?
You shouldn’t be sure you’ll never end up in a damp, tiny cell in Guantanamo Bay, said best-selling author Naomi Klein to the NYU students and faculty gathered last night in Hemmerdinger Hall.
“We think we don’t fit the profile,” she said. “If we feel safe, we are banking on the racism of our government.”
Klein, author of current New York Times bestseller “The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism,” visited the Silver Center last night to participate in the panel “Torture and Democracy,” along with Lisa Hajjar, chair of the law and society program at the University of California at Santa Barbara and author of “Courting Conflict: The Israeli Military Court System in the West Bank and Gaza.”
“We’re here to talk about the relationship between torture and democracy,” Klein said. “The thesis of the book is that the central claim of our time that the free market and democracy go hand in hand is a fairy tale.”
Klein made it clear that her definition of democracy is not a country that holds elections, but a nation that values human rights and civil liberties that are being stripped away by the use of torture as a “crude tool of coercion.” She finds that shock coupled with torture is being used to scare both individuals, largely in Guantanamo, and mass publics into submission.
“Torture is always public,” she said. “In order for you to be scared, you have to know it’s going on.”
Hajjar spoke of the relationship between torture and law, and agreed with Klein that the government’s acceptance of torture can break down entire nations.
“Torture produces false information, breaks a society and leads to mass imprisonment,” she said. “You torture people, they confess and you can say you caught a terrorist. Torture doesn’t produce truth; the ticking time bomb notion is ridiculous - ‘24′ notwithstanding.”
Though the common consensus across the panel was that the current situation in the United States is bleak, Klein offered some positive advice for improvement.
“Just like torture sends individuals into shock, events like Sept. 11 send whole societies into shock,” she said. “They lose their narrative. We need to start telling stories of why terror is happening.”
Shaunna Murphy is features editor. E-mail her at smurphy@nyunews.com.
© 2007 Washington Square News
Who’s next?
Not me>>>>> i’ts PJD
“Hajjar spoke of the relationship between torture and law, and agreed with Klein that the government’s acceptance of torture can break down entire nations.”
We can only hope so… maybe state succession will go better a second time.
Its amazing that so many of our elected official (obviously) think it’s absurb that the American people will fight against abuse and oppression… they’ve done it before…
Of course, now that the military has a “pain-ray” capable of subduing hundreds of people at a time (and don’t forget how thought-crime will be on the books as soon as it passes the Senate), that is becoming increasingly difficult…just like they wanted.
Besides, Randy Ray and Joe Bob (rednecks) will always be on their side…unless the government takes their guns away…Joe Bob wouldn’t like that… but then they wouldn’t be able to do anything about it.
Wow…those neocons got it all figured out. Think I’ll get into politics and becomes someone’s crony…in a few years, that’ll be the only way to be influential or successful.
IMPALE BUSH AND CHENEY!
Naomi is a shining star.
“Torture is always public,” she said. “In order for you to be scared, you have to know it’s going on.”
Some people thought that the publishing of the tasering at the Florida university was a sign we have a free and open press. How very naive!
Thank God-dess there are still luminaries who help US connect the dots to recognize the dangers of the impending big picture. Naomi is luminous in her articulated realizations.
I predicted 10 years ago that it was just a matter of time until America’s domestic policy would have to go towards fascism because of one reason among many; is the U.S. hegemony around the world cannot be maintained any other way, and it was not a matter of if but when they could get away with it HERE unfortunately,this political,miasma is coming true. Read: THE END OF AMERICA BY NAOMI WOLF.
“We need to start telling stories of why terror is happening.”
Because some poor scmuck was unfortunate enough to be born and then reside on a piece of real estate that some other fat cat can make a killing on.
and on and on…..
Look around we got a lot of fat cats.
Thank God for true blue yet red-blooded Americans like Naomi Klein who stand up for what’s right! Klein is following in the great American tradition of our founding fathers by speaking out against tyranny and despotism. Klein represents all that is virtuous and good about being an American citizen with her stand against torture and state-sponsored terrorism. We are all truly lucky to have her as a fellow citizen of the United States.
(Yes, I know she’s Canadian. To find “real” Americans who stand up for American virtues one needs to find Canadians)
Naomi concludes, “We need to start telling stories of why terror is happening.”
Taking her advice, here’s a more complete narrative, by Hannah Arendt, pointing to the common thread behind why wars happen ‘abroad’, why tyranny is happening ‘at home’ and why terror is happening “abroad and at home”:
Hannah Arendt presciently warned, “Empire abroad (always) entails tyranny at home”.
We can all see the shadow of Empire “abroad” in its oil-war(s) with Iraq and soon Iran.
But thus far we have avoided any ’shared sacrifice’ or ’shared pain’ as shown in the weak anti-war movement against the wars “abroad” part.
Now prepare for the “tyranny at home” part.
The first real shared pain for complacent Americans will be the complete crash of this Empire’s domestic Ponzi-economy — which has already started — and the economic pain right here “at home”, will be harder to ignore than Iraqi women and children being killed by the Empire operating in our name.
The next “tyranny at home” will be the police-state ‘culling’ of any dissident relatives and friends we may have had, as they are ‘disappeared’ to the detention centers now being built.
Then the ‘tyranny at home” will come for you directly.
Maybe we should all wake-up to the seriousness of Arendt’s warning about this global corporatist Empire hiding behind the facade of ‘Vichy America’ before they come for us .
I’m awake and moving to the streets now in the expanding anti-Empire movement — everyone should be joining the anti-Empire movement as the movement moves beyond anti-war “abroad”, and includes anti-tyranny “at home”, and anti-Empire terror everywhere.
The only real ‘global war on terror’ is the war of all of us against Empire.
Klein was quoted, “We need to start telling stories of why terror is happening.”
I’d like to know what stories she has. I know (and agree with), the reasons for terror that are familiar to most progressives:
Hegemony
Economics
Politics
But what about Religion?
Is Klein like most progressives? Does she have a blind spot when it comes to the role that Faith plays in terror?
“If we feel safe, we are banking on the racism of our government”
Exactly. The ruling class of the USA is happy to kill white people as well as brown or black. Remember that the nuclear bombs were pointed at the USSR for 50 years. And, actually, they’re putting in new ones.
The Irish as well as the Chinese were worked to death on the railroads.
The US armed the Afghan muhadjdeen to kill Russian throughout the 1980s, and they armed them to kill Serbs in the 1990s. I don’t feel safe being green. You shouldn’t feel safe being white.
Careful there. Faith and religion are often two different things, usually also mutually exclusive of each other.
Faith inspires individuals to do many wonderful and terrible things, but religion requires the supplanting of the individual with external moral doctrine usually enforced by a threat of dire eternal punishment for those that break the code of the religion in question.
Religion is guilt, fear and the artificial creation of an us and them social and moral barrier that otherwise would not exist.
Just offering some points to ponder.
Keep the faith, hang the religion.
Last night there was a story Keith Olbermann covered on Homeland Security training firefighters and emergency care workers
on how to spot “terroristic” behaviors when, they enter an American household to inspect or in an emergency, to “seek out illegal materials be on the look out for people who express hate or discontent with the U.S. government.” The criteria for becoming a domestic terrorist supect - Suspicious behaviors such as anger and discontent with this administration”.
Watch video: http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=msnbc&vid=d6f8a766-6e49-441b-8c53-4c20db0461ab
And here is another video of an American being tortured by “tasering” - just 2 hours ago for holding up traffic for 10 minutes in Florida. The more this is done by officials to ordinary Americans, the better the chances that people will become afraid to protest or stand up for their rights.
That is the goal of torture isn’t it? To make people afraid and to control them.
I will not post the link you can find it on MSNBC. I do not wish to participate in the propagation of desensitvity to torture.
It is personally upsetting to me that we even are discussing “torture” - and while we discuss the ethics and morality of torture, people have already been and continue to be tortured. At the same time, “we the People” are being manipulated to become desensitized to public torture via “tasering”. The only time people seem toget upset or follow the story now is when someone dies from being electrocuded. Otherwise, silence.
In the case that just occured in traffic on the highway in Florida, all those people sat there in their cars and trucks watching this happen - would anyone dare get out of their cars and protest the police officers behaviors or the use of tasers? Not without knowing their protests would be met with their being “tasered” for interupting. I believe many of them sat there in shock. These people have all been psycchologically and emotionally impacted by what they have witnessed.
Whilst we are just talking about the implications of torture and “are we or are we not torturing”, on a liberal website where people who come here already morally condone such behaviors, the government is way ahead of us and enacting the policies.
I don’t have an answer to what to do. I can only prepare myself not to become afraid to stand in truth.
Peace.
Odonian, Naomi rightfully left out faith as reason for terror.
Some terrorists of all religious persuasions claim religious ‘rights’ to commit acts of terror aginst other humans.
No faith condones terror! In fact, I know of none. It’s only individuals who commit the acts for the other reasons Naomi points out.
They attempt to clothe these acts in religious garb, but anyone with any common sense should be able to differentiate and see through the false aguments.
Hate is not part of any religion I know of. It’s a human failing.
Well, Sure its bad folks but try to remember that the way we cope with all this shit is to not let it scare us… well sure its scary and Fear is how they keep us in the state of Shock!.
Now here is the trick folks cause I have been under this oppression of secrecy the National Security War machine controlling our lives… as much as they could afford…Ha Ha since 1946-47… this shit started big after Roosevelt died.
There is a million ways to-torture us into submission but our fear is always the purpose and our self defeat…
Ya gotta act with courage and strength and above all …Humor cause the more you let the Boogie men get your mind baby,,, the more you live your own life in terror from what we read and pound away at our Internet computers and we are all connected now all over the Planet…Common Dreams is cool ,,,, and we can type away and advocate revolution and a beautiful future free from this fear they sell so please Naomi…lets not let the Nazi win by just scaring us to Death…
Love, Jim
“When people fear the government, you have tyranny, but when government fears the people, you have liberty.” -Thomas Jefferson
Siouxrose November 29th, 2007 12:45 pm
“Thank God-dess there are still luminaries who help US connect the dots to recognize the dangers of the impending big picture.”
I count our blessings every day that there are people like Naomi Klein who continue to keep us informed.
You all make me smile….you keep giving kudos to Naomi, but listen to all of you!!!
She is not the only example, your words alone are exactly what she is talking about.
As Americans you do this country, or rather this world proud!
You haven’t given in. You all are also responsible for spreading information, love, compassion, and courage.
So, yes Naomi is doing good works, but so are you….
My kudos go to the CD crowd. What a lovely community this is.
“Torture is always public,” she said, “In order for you to be scared, you have to know it’s going on.”
I have to revise my previously stated opinion, in a different thread, about the veracity of Ms. Klein’s view. Obviously, she is one of those harmless type who seem to mean well but who do not really understand how the geopolitical world works in it’s fundamental way. Harassment and intimidation are meant to be public, but torture is always meant to be private, or semi-private. And it rarely produces false information because when you cut someone’s fingers off and then threaten to cut off their testicles, you can be sure that they will tell you everything exactly as they know it.
Apparently, the “tea-circles” and the “church socials” ladies have come to be educated that torture is water-boarding, but in reality that is only abuse. Torture is when the blood flows freely on the floor and the fat of the body melts. Such torture, real torture, has been taught for decades at the U.S.’s School of the Americas, although they have recently changed that infamous name.
We are on the verge of a taser epidemic, just watch a few youtube vids or read a couple of articles. And the scary part is the development of a new wave of non-lethal weapons. All to be stock piled at a police department near you.
Why is this important? Because as the economy continues to crash and the dollar looses all its value, guess what happens, people still need food. The crime rate will go up as average, everyday, poor people who can no longer acquire adequate means for survival, will attempt to survive.
Maybe we’re not talking about you,… yet.
Not only does the crime rate rise, but so does political action, in the forms of protests etc. as those two social forces rise together they get treated the same because they are the same; People struggling for survival.
They are also a threat to the people who are not poor; for them the system works great, and the president, well he may have some flaws but he’s a good guy and we need to protect ourselves from the terrorists.
I can see the pro wrestling, news talk pundits now: “Anti American riots broke out today looting grocery stores and stealing food and clean water before the riot gear clad heroes arrived and began to administer a variety of non lethal deterrents to the home grown terrorist activity. Over a hundred rioters were taken to the privately owned federal prison, to undergo recently approved interrogation techniques.”
Its not that farfetched at all.
So holding elections is not the same as having a democracy? Who knew? And all these years I have been so proud of my country for offering me the choice between Fascist A and Fascist B in every election.
And jmacneil, before you try to analyze what Ms. Klein is trying to say it may be worth your while to read “The Shock Doctrine.” You may learn something.
curmudgeon99 beautifully put and this is something that needs to be said over and over again on CD.
Naomi I love you thank you!
curmudgeon99:
I think you may be shocked to read what lurks in the pages of the 3 books of monotheism. The Koran is chock full of exhortations to kill the infidel. The old testament has stories of the chosen people slaughtering their opponents, and earning god’s praise for doing so. There’s no shortage of terror in the good books.
By the way, religion is a human construct, so if hate is a human failing as you posit, then certainly religion is not immune from hate.
stinger_28:
I don’t find such clear distinctions between faith and religion. At essence, they both: lack reason, lack evidence. Parse the terms how you will, neither deserves being treated with kid gloves; both have often led to terror.
As I said: Faith inspires individuals to do many wonderful and terrible things.
My central problem with religion comes from two consequences of its adoption.
one: it creates an us and them social and moral barrier between people.
two: it erodes individual accountability because of this.
Faith is personal and thus the individual is still responsible for the actions they take, good or evil.
Odonian here’s an answer to your post by Edward Flaherty. By the way Islmophobia is hate and I strongly suggest you cut out the hate.
Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. A recent op-ed piece by Cal Thomas is a high profile example.
This is pure nonsense. Thomas and others doing this are taking selected passages and reading them completely out of context to support whatever argument they wish to make. I can do the same thing with the Bible.
Here are some choice passages from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
Context is important, of course, and many of these seeming cruelties disappear when read as such. However, this would not stop a Christian terrorist from interpreting the Bible in a manner necessary to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors, as Pope Urban II did, for example, when he preached the First Crusade in 1095 or as many American preachers did when they used Leviticus to defend slavery.
Political and religious extremists have abused Islamic, Jewish, or Christian scriptures continuously throughout history. Cal Thomas, a man who claims to be Christian, would do well to learn something of his own faith s scriptures and history before accusing Islam s Quran of promoting violence.
– Edward Flaherty On-line since 1993 E-mail: Web site: http://members.home.net/flaherty15/index.htm
“Fear is worse than death because it holds the mind hostage” Ossie Davis
Ah, kivals, is trying to say something equal to saying something? Why would such a relatively minor event like 911 send whole societies into shock? When equating catastrophes, just how does such a minuscule loss of life extinguished in the WTC equate to the hundreds of thousands of lives extinguished in each of many South American countries, all of which mass murders were aided and abetted by the U.S.? If you are going to have a sorority type of “demonstration” against the powers that be, then have at it. We’re not complaining about that innocent approach to curing society, but don’t laud it as “THE” substantial contribution to a just society.
Odonian, the level of violence in early civilization times was far exceeded by non-religious organizations over depictions in the “holy” books. Go to the library and get “The Wars of the Jews” by Josephus and “The Gallic Wars” by Julius Caesar, among other classic literature, and you will read fascinating accounts of barbarity that exceed your wildest imaginations (maybe).
I also think Naomi’s statement about torture needs to be public to be effective is illuminating and chilling!
As a geezer, I saw the fascist future of this country being seeded in the 60’s and early 70’s.
Like any other overlord/status quo behavior: greed, racism, slavery ~ it’s up to us to bring it to the light and correct it.
Bambi
dcbeltway
luke 19 22-27
Is not jesus ordering killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
but if your point is to miquote the bible like the koran gets misquoted, i get it.
but as a responce to misquoting the koran wouldn’t it be better to correct them rather than do what they were doing.
Read her book. Even if you have to read a copy. Read “the Shock Doctrine”. The various articles and speeches and reviews of it I see can only scratch the surface and say shorthand what she says throughly and convincingly in the book.
Sorry, I grew up as a poor white in Appalachia, then lived in the south as a hippie wearing tie-dies. So I’ve never bought into this notion that if you were white you were somehow privileged and immune to torture and abuse. Too many people I’ve known have been beaten up by cops, charged with false charges, abused in prison, etc for me to ever think that.
There’s this myth that somehow every rich white SOB in a Lexus is indicative of white people everywhere. Bull! Go talk to some coal miners in Appalachia sometime. Or people are so poor and desperate for a job that being a coal miner seems like a good opportunity to them.
Its about CLASS, its not about skin color. Yes, most of the privileged and protected CLASS is white, so there’s this constant refrain from people who make the mistake of thinking that somehow all whites are privileged and protected. Grow up white and outside that privileged CLASS someplace like the east Tennessee hills and its real bloody obvious that that’s a myth.
The graduates of the School of the Americas are always taught to dump the bodies of their victims in very public places so everyone can see the torture and it can generate the fear they want. The victims of the death squads dumped by the side of the road everywhere from Central America to Baghdad are following this technique.
There is a different technique of ‘disappearing’. It generates fear in a different way … through the uncertainty of what’s happened to a person. But even then, the act of ‘disappearing’ them is usually a very public act. People grabbed off a public street in broad daylight. Or a police raid into a neighborhood at night with as much noise, sirens, helicopters overhead, flashing lights as possible to make sure the word gets around about what’s happening.
The general key is to keep the population under control by making them too fearful to object to the actions the rulers are taking that screw the people in order to make others rich(er).
jmacneil,
As COMarc wrote, and as I wrote earlier, read the book. Klein goes into great detail in “The Shock Doctrine” regarding how the regimes in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, and elsewhere used torture to subdue the population. And she provides compelling arguments regarding the use by the Bush administration of 9/11 as cover for a wide range of radical policies. She does not buy into the claim that 9/11 was the shock, but that the Bush administration was able to amplify it sufficiently to the point it had a serious impact on the public consciousness. Klein is an expert in the area, not a novice.
Not likely. In Latin America they call them “desaparecidos”, the disappeared, because the graduates of the School of the Americas were taught to hide them in unmarked mass graves.
War=Peace Did you read what I posted? It wasn’t even written by me it was written by Edward Flagherty in response to Cal Thomas, as Cal Thomas wrote an article that said the Quran preaches violence and this article was published. Flagherty argues that when you take religious quotes out of context whether its the Quran, Bible, Torah etc. you distort the meaning. So this was my whole point in posting the post and it was in response to Odonian’s post about violence in the Quran. I thought this was a good example to use.
The KKK and slaveholders in the South were always Christian, and always able to find bible quotes to back their beliefs.
To me, with any religion, it starts with someone trying to say something that’s usually good and useful. But then the religion becomes a power structure, and people use the religion to promote and protect their own power. So all sorts of stuff gets written later about the religion that has little or nothing to do with what the person was trying to say in the first place.
So, while I’m not a Christian, I do find there’s some useful teaching in the Bible. But I tend to treat the stuff in the Gospels as being closest to what Jesus was trying to teach. And yes, some of that’s been edited and such along the way by church hierarchies. So I wouldn’t take it as word-for-word absolutely true, and its always subject to being taken out of context. But you can get the sense of what Jesus was trying to teach.
And from that sense I’d say no true ‘Christian’, as in follower of Jesus Christ, could ever torture or mistreat another person. Jesus would be washing the feet of prisoners with that water, not waterboarding them in it!
To me, the old Testament is a history of the Jewish people, and maybe there’s some pearls of wisdom in there. But I’ve never quite understood why its even in a Christian bible as Jesus was plainly teaching something very different in his day. Whenever someone starts quoting old testament “eye-for-an-eye” type of stuff to me, to me its very plain that this is not Christian belief.
I don’t know the Koran .. and I was going to write more but that phrase tells me I should just stop.
J MACNEIL - You ask: “Why would such a relatively minor event like 911 send whole societies into shock? “
I now believe we are being purposely shocked often and continuously, on many levels, intentionally to weaken, separate, and demoralize us. This is simply a far ranging method of mind control, which is interleaved with countless other techniques for directing our energies anywhere ELSE but into productive, humane, and proactive enterprises.
We are so tired of the LIES, but if we shed more LIGHT into where is all of this FEAR is coming from, I for one will not be surprised if BLACKWATER (and other off-the-shelf mercenary gangs) are doing this directly at the behest of our controlling corpto-fascist-govt “leaders”.
They’re leading us right to _ H E L L _ on Earth, and we need to re-direct them!
Namaste
__ __ __ __ We must be the change
__ __ __ __ we wish to see in the world __ Gandhi
Before trying to convince us of the impeccable credentials of someone who has only a vague idea of the reality, perhaps you should delineate just exactly what it is which convinces you. Otherwise, referring us to a book which we all know is a juvenile understanding of geopolitical reality will not induce us to read beyond what Ms. Klein has stated in her other articles, in which statements she summarized her thesis.
Lots of death squad victims were left by the side of the road in Latin America. I remember stories of tortured bodies either left hanging by their hands from trees by the side of the road, or left there with hands chopped off.
I’m sure there were some ‘disappeared’ in Latin America, but I don’t usually associate that technique with that region. The term ‘disappeared’ comes from Argnetina, which is a long ways away from Latin America. Besides, which, you seem to have completely ignored by discussion of how that technique generates the same end result of fear anyways.
But what I’m really confused about is what you are even trying to argue in the first place. You seem to want to play semantics walking Dubya’s line of what is and isn’t torture, and you seem to want to deny some very basic points that Ms. Klein makes very clearly that the neo-con style of economics and a repressive police state go hand in hand. If you want to try to convince me that isn’t true, remember I’ve actually read Ms. Klein’s book and you’ve got about 400 pages of very convincing and documented facts to refute.
The really short version. The neo-con style of economics, largely promoted by graduates of the Chicago School of Economics although there are of course others, always does the following. It generally screws a majority of the people for the benefit of the few. And in a true democracy where a government of the people, by the people and for the people truly exists, they could never do this as the majority of the people are not likely to approve of being screwed over. Therefore, ‘democracy’ is one of the first things to go when this style of economics is implemented. And since most people in the world are not sheep who willingly go along with being screwed over (outside America anyways), an increase in police repression and torture almost always comes with this.
We’ve seen different variations and refinements on this. In Chile and Argentina we saw a pure military police state overthrowing democracy. In Russia and Poland we saw a facade of democracy, but rulers then making deals and decisions in the back rooms that were the opposite of what they were elected to do.
In the US, we’ve see a slow, steady implementation of this with a combination of a massive propaganda and entertainment campaigns provided to distract the people, along with a massive increase and militarization of the police. American police have always used torture, but any restrictions on that that have come from the 60’s and 70’s are under attack and being rolled back … and more so post 9-11.
NobodaySpecial writes:
“…Its amazing that so many of our elected official (obviously) think it’s absurb that the American people will fight against abuse and oppression… they’ve done it before…”
This is true, but the American people, the apolitical masses(and there is a vast majority) have never been as controlled in their thinking as they are now.
odonian wrote:
“Is Klein like most progressives? Does she have a blind spot when it comes to the role that Faith plays in terror?”
Religion, is not, in itself, the origin of the violence, religion servies merely as the center for orgainzation - a point of agreement and identity around which the various armed nationalist movements can orgainize.
Furthermore, the sort of actions traditionally called “terrorism”, including suicide actions, have very little to do with religion. They are a consequence of the desperation that arises when ones opressor and occupier has an overwhelming advantage that renders conventional armed conflict futile. Historically, even secular armed movements have occasionally resorted to suicide tactics.
30 years ago, the Arab “terorists” were nearly all leftists, and militant Marxist pan-Arabism was their center about which they orgainzed.
So, 30 years ago, odonian would no doubt would be writing: “we have a blind spot when it comes to ‘godless communism’ being the source of the terror”.
But, in both cases, the source of the “terror” is nationalist resistance to US imperialism.
The “terror” will end as soon as the US quits inflicting “terror” on others.
jmacneil,
The geopolitical reality is unbounded in complexity, but we all must use finite models (as with all models of the universe, sacrificing accuracy for manageability) to get a grasp of it in order to fashion useful and helpful responses. Klein offers fresh insights and a fascinating perspective at a level of detail and with documentation that is at least equal to the level typical of similar works.
She explains how the Milton Friedman model of “free markets” was forced upon the Chilean people, and then the Argentinians and Brazilians in similar fashion, using large disorienting shocks to soften resistance. She goes on to explain how similar approaches worked in Poland and Russia and elsewhere. And she elegantly ties it together to a neoliberal movement run by US corporate elites to privatize and plunder the world.
It is your loss if you do not read “The Shock Doctrine.”
Have you been reading the current corporate media brainwash line that “violence is down in Iraq?”
It makes me sick.
One half a million children and other people at risk died in Iraq due to the sanctions during the Clinton years. A million and more have died as a result of the invasion and occupation and the associated violence. That’s 1.5 million dead.
On 9/11/2001 3000 people died in the U.S. That means Iraq has lost as many people as 450 9/11s in the past 15 years or so due to U.S. actions. Since we have 300 million people in the U.S. and they only have 25 million in Iraq, you have to multiply by 12 to get the equivalent effect.
So Iraq has suffered about 12 x 450 or 5,400 9/11s due to U.S. foreign policy in the last 15 years. 15 x 365 = 5465 days. So we have inflicted a 9/11 worth of death on Iraq every day for the past 15 years.
Things got quiet at Auschwitz too after a while.
I would add that a theory gains credibility when it successfully predicts future events. Klein, with her theory, predicted some time ago that the Bush administration would do everything in its power to make and enforce an agreement like the one it made a couple of days ago with Maliki’s government, providing US corporations with certain advantages as the US promises to protect the Maliki government from coups (such coups most likely to be attempted by Iraqis interested in real democracy).
heavyrunner - thanks for the perspective. I have trouble grasping numbers myself. And the comparison to Auschwitz is right on.
Do we get cotton candy with that? Or do we just get to watch Mickey fondling Minnie?
commander_in_chimp, I do feel there are Americans and women as well that live daily as proof of their commitment to ending torture, stopping what is wrong with this admin. and ending/ preventing war.
Col. Ann Wright, Maricela Guzman, Former Congresswoman Elizabeth Holthman, Cindy Sheehan, Medea Benjamin, Desiree Al Farouk and Celeste. Celeste is also a Gold Star Family for Peace whose behind is in front of the recruitment offices at Broad and Cherry, most times alone, if you know Philly it isn’t a nice place for a white woman alone at night and still want to breath the following day.
I Am Not detracting from Naomi Wolf by any means,
I am just trying to give some credit to women that do this daily and are American, the lot of us are not slackers.
12/5/2007, Supreme Court, GITMO shut down protest, inside the CCR will be presenting Al Odah v United States and Boumediene v Bush to the Court.
Meant Klein not Wolf, in hospital 83 yr old Mom broken hip, not an excuse just an explaination for my idiocy. Pardon
“And from that sense I’d say no true ‘Christian’, as in follower of Jesus Christ, could ever torture or mistreat another person. Jesus would be washing the feet of prisoners with that water, not waterboarding them in it!”
You said it all. I don’t understand much of the Old Testament but that’s OK because its history applies strictly to the Jewish people . I can understand every single act and statement of Jesus Christ’s career to be identically emulated by every follower and for my own peace of mind,that,including the Sermon on the Mount trumps everything.
I have this image of Naomi Klein with a whip in one hand and a dog leash in the other, and the other end of the leash is chained around Dick Cheney’s neck, and she’s got him on all fours with a pair of panties over his head.
Another taser incident - they keep getting more outrageous…
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/11/29/delgreco.pregnant.taser.whio
This is the domestic part of what John Pilger, the best journalist writing for the British press, calls the USA’s “war on democracy” and portrays same in his documentary feature film by same name, which the USA’s neo cons almost surely won’t let in this country as long as they can keep it out, and for good reason– it’s the damn truth!
jmacneil: If you’d rather not read a book before pontificating about it, perhaps you could at least read the 56 pages of references in the back. The factual basis behind The Shock Doctrine is all there. It is an exhaustively researched book in which she has masterfully assembled, organized and synthesized the data from a large number of US government, IMF and World Bank documents, corporate reports, IRS records, published personal correspondence (such as letters from Milton Friedman to Pinochet, et. al.,) as well as material from books and periodicals, public records and results of Freedom of Information Act requests. The Chicago School economists and their “free”-market, “free”-trade, “dismantle the commons and privatize everything” disciples–including Rumsfeld, Cheney and almost the entire neo-con pantheon– actually wrote what they wrote, went where they went and did what they did–and their philosophy and actions are part of the historical record, not the inventions of the author. Even the phrase “economic shock therapy” which gave rise to the title, was not Klien’s invention; it was a phrase coined by–and a political and economic strategy advanced by–Milton Friedman himself! Once again, please carefully read through the references AT LEAST before you assume that you know what you’re talking about.
Pretty weird. As soon as I turn on Keith Olberman the first words I hear him speak tonight are the name Naomi Klein…strange?
There is a difference between religin and faith. History has demonstrated that more blood has been spilled for religus reasons, in the name of god, then for all other reasons combined. Sorry, but if you are talking to god, and he is answering, you my friend are suffering from schizophenia. If some people need to believe in a fairy tale about the earth being created in a week a few thousand years ago, fine I will respect that. But please, keep god out of the peoples goverment.
I just saw you on Keith Olbermann. I meant to do my part to stop Christmas consumerism, but I’ve decided to give each of my friends a copy of “The Shock Doctrine”. Naomi, you are an angel, even if you don’t talk about religion.
Naomi, I love you…anytime….your into being tied up and tortured, let me know, just so you know, tickled to death is still torture,,,,and I abhore torture, this is the fact,, “I will defend your right to believe anything you want, just as long as it doesn’t hurt me or anyone else.” Jos. M Clark
To bad, we cannot communicate with the world that we just want to get along and make life a little easier for everyone, if making a little money is the only way children can play, then so be it but lets not let the GAME control us or lose sight and hurt anyone for something, THIS I believe is the Idoltry of the ancient Prophets,this is our planet, we are all in this together,,,”if any one says he loves God and hates his brother, he is a liar” Jes. H Christ
Highly recommend a DVD called, ironically enough, “Mr. Klein”. It’s a french movie about Paris during the nazi occupation in 1942. Produced by and starring Alain Delon.
It’s about a man who thought the persecution was only for “them”–those “certain groups” and would never touch him.
All it takes is knowing the wrong friend of a friend, or a beaurocratic mix up or the post office getting your address confused and you’re on the persecution watch list too.
All those who think they are immune, (aside from being closet racists), are fools.
Chilling thread. Heavyrunner’s reference to Auschwich made me think of the movie Titanic when all those people in the water were crying and screaming, and then…silence.
Torture is not new to the US, but publicly advertising it is. Of course there is a reason for that. Olbermann’s video about first responders becoming informants of “discontent” with the government (read administration) and the public tasering of people feels like the velvet glove coming off the fascist fist.
I think you people are wasting your time with JMacNeil. Someone who hasn’t read a book but feels fully entitled to form an opinion about it is obviously prejudiced. Perhaps if waterboarding doesn’t qualify as torture to JMacNeil, he/she should try it and find out if that is a valid view. Certainly the victims don’t agree.
America’s leadership deliberately engaged in disgusting and abhorrent behavior, detaining, torturing and murdering innocent human beings.
The President told us he was doing it because of September 11th; that he was doing it for us. The Vice President told us everything that was being done, absolutely had to be done, for the sake of America and the World. The Secretary of Defense told us we were smarter and better than them; any ‘them’ he chose; that we could and should and would defeat the enemies he created.
Detaining and torturing and murdering was supposed to frighten, disorient and demoralize us; our anger over September 11th was supposed to galvanize our support behind these actions.
Outspoken members of the Administration and Congress urged us to join the march to victory over the greatest threat to World peace ever experienced.
Fortunately, Americans, including voting Americans, people like most of the people on this site, looked at each other, felt the pain they were experiencing, including the pain of September 11th, and then looked at their leaders with disillusionment and despair.
They rejected and distanced themselves from the religious, political and fear-based rationales of their leaders; they rejected and distanced themselves from the shameful and obscene behavior of their leaders; they rejected and distanced themselves from the absurd fantasies, cult personalities and obsessive righteousness and arrogance they saw.
They remembered that they were human beings first and acted like human beings, putting love, appreciation and understanding above ignorance, intolerance and hatred.
The World honors America and Americans by hoping and dreaming to be like us; in the days ahead, we’ll have many opportunities to show them their faith is not ill-placed; the courage that Americans and others have shown so far begins our efforts to clean up this mess and make the World a better place for all of us.
We have lessons to learn and long hard days ahead; days we will spend, with the help of others, of all persuasions, around the World, repairing what we can and building anew where that’s the best we, together, can do.
Everywhere human minds think, everywhere human hearts beat, everywhere human beings shun the arrogance of power, everywhere human beings hold hands and walk together in peace, let people sing, let freedom ring!
I appreciate the icons that the powers-that-be allow for us, but I remain wondering why the Hightowers, Kleins, Moyers, Naders, etc. never appear in forums like this. Are they real people in the full sense?
There is, however, a subtle problem in Democracy. In the purest form, it descends to mob rule.
Ideally, we may not actually want this. I’ve oft-wondered whether we’d be better off with a system in which the best/brightest/wisest of us lead the remainder. But access to good education is not equalized, and we lack any objective criteria for really fathoming intelligence — let alone wisdom (nearly extinct today). It descends into the caste-based aristocracy of pompous fools (the sons & daughters of Old and New Money).
Note that I’m not referring to Klein in particular here, I’m not that familiar with her writings.
I don’t generally spend any money on political writings of any sort. Hell, this is the era of open source software (REALLY complicated stuff). Political musings, at this stage, ought to be open source as well.
I would argue that since the invention of the priniting press and the advent of public education, religion can no longer be blamed for terror, war and other violence.
We can read it for ourselves! Idiots rely on someone else’s interpretation of a book they themselves have access to.
In the past, it was different. Most were illiterate and the Christian Bible, at least, was in a language that many in Europe did not understand. So they could not read the Bible because 1) they couldn’t read any language and 2) the Bible was in another language so when read it was still foreign.
I understand that Islam encourages (and maybe requires?) Muslims to be able to read the Qu’ran for themselves rather than rely on an Imam.
Point being, religion (the congregation and assembly of people of faith) is very much social. Even the most devout today don’t NEED a sermon, an interpretation of the Bible passage read to them. They go for another reason.
Even before people could read, Jesus did say that religion was unnecessary, and faith (personal beliefs and moral code) are more important. If more people read the Bible on their own, they might realize this (you’ll never hear that passage on Sunday, for obvious reasons).
Unfortunately the right wing has successfully made torture an element of patriotism. Probably no one will ever bring the Bush administration war criminals to trial for fear of looking unpatriotic or being “divisive”. The FOX-Limbaugh cry would be “Mr. ________ was only trying to protect America. We have to use every available method to keep our children safe from harm. The liberals are now persecuting _____ and fellow patriots in a witch hunt.” The Left can’t fight this with the many good reasoned arguments on its side (and the side of the victims). Instead it must repeat over and over again with this slogan, “Torture is treason! Torture is treason! Torture is treason!” It’s easy to remember and has nice alliteration and rhythm. Torture is treason.
I disagree that the right-wing has made torture kosher.
That may be the word around the insular/inbred DC beltway, but they ought to wander out into Middle America and ask people point blank: Do you think that torture is a Christian notion? Do you think that torture is allowed under the US Bill of Rights? Geneva Conventions?
No, even conservative/religious sorts I know are greatly troubled at torture. It’s bullshit to suggest that torture is mainstream. You give them too much credit. They’re on the precipice of credibility, and it’s our job to push them over — not to give them over-confidence.
Hats off to you Naomi Klein!! Keep up the good work-and keep your head down. She’s right about one thing for sure. The people who don’t feel afraid probably have no idea about what’s going on here.
Torture has always been used against those that will never be able to talk about it. We are naive to think that torture was never used until this so-called war on terror. You don’t become a world power by obeying the rules. America is a hated because we are gullible idiots ruled by tyrants. Torture is not a serious issue, how we allowed our own government to get away with 9/11 is a real serious issue.
I’ll pay attention (or even admission) when our scholars begin to seriously address the real attack on American democracy that occurred September 11, 2001.
If Naomi Klien is single, I’ll marry her…She is the best.
It is a bunch of crap to blame faith or religion for the evil acts of people. That is backward. First you do what you want with no regard for everyone else. THEN you find some kind of justification to cover your ass. If that fails you nail a scapegoat. If that fails go to rehab and cry publicly to show your genuine remorse……………… at getting caught.
Torture is especially subject to this system as it is always wrong.
Your not kidding wdmax http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=4153&CID=143914
White Corporate AmeriKKKa are the world’s terrorists and the real threat to global peace…..
Naomi Klein is a blessed woman with a high level of intelligence and more importantly, compassion. She is ‘Christ-like, in my opinion, and after reading her books and essays, and remembering the first time (about 4 years ago) I saw Amy Goodman interviewing her on DEMOCRACY NOW!, every thing she said resonated within me and I have the greatest respect for her. For almost two years, Naomi was away, but working on the South American project.
Just looking into those big brown eyes of hers, I see honesty, integrity, and a passion for justice. Yes, girls, Naomi Klein is a shining star and a godess. (and good lookin’too)
To each his own, but any religion that disregards the ‘Golden Rule’ is just mumbo jumbo.
Torquemada practiced his faith (in the dungeon) for religious beliefs. Didn’t he?
What does it say for us as a nation where torture is now excepted and condoned?
And what does it say about the Democrats who give the green light to the Republican agenda?
“What does it say for us as a nation where torture is now excepted and condoned?” (peaceman)
* What does it say for us as a nation where torture is not now, nor was it ever, excepted and condoned?
= = =
“And what does it say about the Democrats who give the green light to the Republican agenda?”
(peaceman)
* And what does it say about those individual Democrats and Republicans who gave and give the green light to the Bush Administration’s agenda?
The people of Germany in the 1930s and 1940s, like Hitler, felt inferior, impotent and angry; they went along with the mistreatment of the Jewish people, fantasies of Aryan superiority, and delusions of World domination.
The American people, didn’t.
Whatever feelings of inferiority, impotency and anger the American people and their friends around the World feel it is insufficient to propel them into the self demeaning, self eviscerating, and spiteful behaviors that have resulted in previous holocausts.
We are all people; if the American people felt like the German people felt years ago, they might have made similar choices.
Obviously, some people in America and elsewhere do feel this way; that needs to change. Those individuals in positions of power in America, and elsewhere, who encourage others to think, feel and act in mean spirited and self loathsome ways, need to be removed from power and kept from acquiring it in the future.
“I don’t generally spend any money on political writings of any sort. Hell, this is the era of open source software (REALLY complicated stuff). Political musings, at this stage, ought to be open source as well.”
(Paul Bramscher)
* All of these writings are available free at the public library.
Reading Klein’s book is a nightmare and an inspiration at the same time. It’s a book that can serve as a large part of a puzzle for building a renewed and dynamic global movement for social and economic justice. Read it, get more frightened and pissed off than ever, and get out of your chair and work for a radical democracy for human rights.
“First comes the shock of a national crisis, making countries desperate for any cure and willing to sacrifice democracy in the process. In Poland in 1989, that first shock was the sudden end of communism and the economic meltdown. Then comes the economic shock therapy, the undemocratic process pushed through in the window of crisis that jolts an economy into growth but blasts so many people out of the picture.”
“Then, in far too many cases, there is the third shock, the one that disciplines and deals with the discarded people: the desperate, the migrants, those driven mad by the system.”
The above verbatim quotes are taken directly from Ms. Klein’s article published last week and which was posted here on CD, and it clearly indicates, besides equating democracy with communism, that she does not understand the system that she is trying to expound on. And if anyone tries to defend her interpretation then they, obviously, do not understand, either. No doubt, her editor and publisher would dearly love for everyone to go out and buy her book, but the truth is, if a book does not have the ring of truth to it, then why muddle through the whole of it just to verify that it makes as little sense as the author’s own summary of it. And that is not to refute the individual references that she gathered, but just her faulty interpretation. Enough said about that nonsense.
The main reason that we are now hearing so much about “waterboarding” and other such relatively mild abuses as being torture is so that the corporate governments, since they’ve been caught, can try and downplay the severity of “torture” in the minds of their citizens. If the average gullible citizen is made to believe that there is no lasting physical damage caused by torture, then maybe it’s not such a bad thing that the corporate governments condone and employ it.
dreamertoo:
“The people of Germany in the 1930s and 1940s, like Hitler, felt inferior, impotent and angry; they went along with the mistreatment of the Jewish people, fantasies of Aryan superiority, and delusions of World domination.
The American people, didn’t.”
I believe you are wrong. Immediately after–and perhaps ever since for a large percentage–Americans have felt inferior. Inferior to those who can suffer a “terrorist” attack (which I’m sure it was, but the true terrorist deep behind the curtain have yet to become so named in the minds of so many) and not freak-the-hell-out. Impotent to understand and affect their nation’s domestic and foreign policy like countries that have more sane electoral processes. And anger? Do you not feel it seething around you yet? Anger at the whole world, for chrissake, anger at being told that they are not the master race.
The methods by which Nazi rule and Neocon rule have twisted a populace into obscene acts are quite different, but the evil of tyranny, the guile of racism, and the hubris of the brinkmanship displayed offer very little core difference. The “master race” is now the “master socioeconomic class,” but they have no less blood on their hands, from Iraq to Karachi to YVR International Airport.
Don’t kid yourself. This is serious business.
She is right in asserting that racism is the deciding factor in who gets victimized first. There was an article in my local paper in which the reporter used the phrase “people who resemble the ethnicity of terrorists”. The context was an advisory to school children on keeping us safe. I guess the author forgot about Timothy McVeigh or never heard of the IRA. We’re being brainwashed into thinking that Islamo-fascism is the biggest threat to “western civilization”.
dreamertoo:
I’ll check out some of her books at the library, though I remain concerned about fearmongering of any sort. I’ve yet to see anyone, or any political movement, make sensible decisions based on fear, or amount to anything useful if it tries to motivate people by fear. The true greats are those who lead by inspiration, courage, hope, dignity, reason, etc. We lack such people today.
Victimization — Keep in mind that the US has no problem with the Islam of Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Egypt. And Bush Sr’s whole argument for Desert Storm was to “liberate Kuwait”. Keep in mind, also, that ruling European families kept their own racial/religious countrymen & women as little better than slaves for over a thousand years. This is a problem of powerful vs. powerless. No reason to put it into a smaller box than that, though it certainly has many sorts of expressions.
Whether curmudgeon99 wants to believe it or not religion does preach hate! That has always been my experience throughout life. By the mere act of saying ‘our religion is the only true religion’ these people teach their followers to hate anything that isn’t in keeping with their religion. Look at the pro-life people as one example of people who have been indoctrinated with a healthy dose of hate. They can not and will not tolerate any other belief but their own. They don’t see where everyone else in this country has a right to their private belief’s whether it’s in keeping with their religious belief’s or not. They are being raised like most Muslims to stamp out what isn’t in keeping with their religious belief’s everywhere they go in life. They are fanatic’s! They have never been taught any respect by their parents or religion for opposing points of view. When you have been taught respect for other people you learn to look the other way on things you have no control over. But, you don’t shove your religious belief’s down other people’s throats. They have never been taught religion is a very private matter not to be imposed upon others. The same goes with the gay issue and every other behavioral or sexual issue. When you find intolerance of this kind religion is usually behind it! It’s a sad fact of life whether people like you want to believe it or not!
Peacemaker said: They are being raised like most Muslims to stamp out what isn’t in keeping with their religious belief’s everywhere they go in life. They are fanatic’s!
You sit there and write about hate and intolerance using stereotypes of Muslmis and here you are spreading hate and intolerance on CD yourself! Hold up a mirror. Perhaps you should change your screename.
‘jmacneil’ (8:00 am, Nov 30) writes, “The above verbatim quotes are taken directly from Ms. Klein’s article published last week …. clearly indicates, besides equating democracy with communism, that she does not understand the system that she is trying to expound on. And if anyone tries to defend her interpretation then they, obviously, do not understand, either.”
What an over-the-top pompous howler! Mr jmacneil has just appointed himself “World Judge of Truth!” He’s the only one who gets to decide what’s true; & who does or doesn’t “understand.” If we don’t agree with him, then “obviously” we “don’t understand the world, either.”
jmacneil’s idea of written expression is setting forth his own mean-spirited blatherings & untenable opinions; then to slather words like “obviously” and “clearly” all over them, hoping that his pushiness & arrogance will hide all the defects.
His remark — in which he’s attempting to defend his own attacks on a book he has neither read nor understood!! — starts with a flatly incorrect assessment of a quote from Ms Klein. As anyone who reads English with full comprehension would see, her paragraph does not NOT “equate democracy with communism.” Nor does it indicate that Klein “does not understand the system” she’s expounding on. On the contrary, it makes perfectly good sense, and doesn’t even speak to whether democracy can or cannot be “equated with communism.”
Now your firefighters and other emergency first-responders are being directed to watch for un/anti-american sentiment or reading materials when they respond to 911 calls, since if such views are openly expressed or such items are in plain sight, there’s no warrant needed.
Oh, yes. Your police state is here for the holidays with a bow on it.
Let the festivities/riots begin.
(i posted some time ago that they would likely declare martial law in the winter because people will be less likely to protest outside for very long, especially after being soaked with a water cannon at -10.)
good luck. i’m glad now that i didn’t accept a job across the pond a few years back.
jmacneil,
I have read dozens of books on political/economic issues and foreign policy, and I have never read a book that had more of a ring of truth than “The Shock Doctrine.” If Klein’s models of reality are juvenile, then the models of virtually every other prominent political/foreign policy commentator or intellectual, as expressed in books and articles they authored, are infantile. Klein tells the brutal truth, providing an explanation of US foreign policy completely consistent with the facts available regarding the policies in question and consistent with more sophisticated models of human motivation and social behavior, both with respect to the prey and the predators.
You apparently occupy a different universe. There does not appear to be enough overlap for fruitful communication to be possible.
What a funny post, the new RichM! Perhaps you should itemize the “mean-spirited blatherings” and “untenable opinions” instead of generalizing. There is no shortage of pawns of the imperium on the internet and any and all of their goofy claims and denunciations can be refuted by logic and data any time that such is required. Be specific and try me!
And as for a requirement of every intellectual to read every propaganda book published by the corporate governments, get real.
And, last but not least, what right, or inside information, gives you the right to decide if I am male or female?
Jeez, Kivals, if you are reading books on political/economic issues and foreign policy, then who do you think is publishing them?
jmacneil is a troll.
A troll, huh? Is that the last defense of the secret service when logic, common sense and data desert them?
Faith, religion, fair tales, and narratives.
Faith: The bio-physical-spiritual ability to maintain an open flow form through the crown chakra, thus allowing a cosmic informational flow from what DeChardan(sp?) called the neoshpere(sp?).
religion: an earth based practice to maintain the information and energy process of faith (true most “religions” of today are false religions with hundreds of years of practice in achieving the opposite).
Fairy tales: along with myths are the natural process of the human nervous system to create the perception of invariance for function within chaos and multiple-dynamic systems. Common usage (false religion) has relegated the terms fairy tale and myth to mean childish notions best dismissed and falsehood; though the energy lying beneath the terms are the very essence of how we organize every action we make.
Narrative: the bio-physic flow of the day which plays out, adjusts, and adapts our fairy tales and myths.
With these definitions I agree with Klein that “We need to start telling stories of why terror is happening”, yet just as important if not more so is the need to tell stories of why terror does not need to happen, at least not as part of carrying out the daily commerce of “civilized” people.
As one can glean from the tone of most of the commentary here, the vast majority of the population is conditioned to the excitement of terror; Klein, as magnificent as her work is, falls into the condition by calling for only more stories on why terror happens without and inclusion of a call for stories on why terror doesn’t need to happen.
Of course telling a non-terror story would mean expressing love, which entails in part complete expansive warmth; a task very difficult to do in this terror constricted world, and when accomplished mostly an antagonist to the system conditioned strictly to excitement, thus you can get crucified for doing so. Anyone here up to the task?
(did anyone notice I didn’t use the word pleasure out of fear of sending 99% of the readers here into a whirling tizzy?)
Conditioned to the excitement of terror, as in: “Klein: In War on Terror, Are You Next?”
How about “Klein: narrative on overcoming terror”,or “Klein: narrative on overcoming terror with true fairy tales and true myths”?
Human beings are intelligent; they know the difference between facts and beliefs.
When human beings choose to be intolerant of others they look for ‘beliefs’ to justify their intolerance; when human beings choose to be indifferent to others they look for ‘beliefs’ to justify their indifference; when human beings choose to be hateful to others they look for ‘beliefs’ to justify their hatefulness.
These ‘beliefs’ are nothing more than convenient explanations.
They can cite religious passages that extol their ‘beliefs’; they can cite celebrities, historical and contemporary, that espouse their ‘beliefs’; they claim their religion or political or ethnic group, or some mysterious source in the universe believes their ‘beliefs’ as well. These ‘beliefs’ may be about themselves, these ‘beliefs’ may be about others; these ‘beliefs’ may be about what others believe; any way the truth can be twisted to suit their needs, they call their ‘beliefs’; sometimes they prefer not to use the word ‘belief’, they simply say ‘they know’.
These human beings know the facts; they know that intolerance, indifference and hatefulness is wrong; their human consciences tell them that what they are saying and doing is wrong; they look for a way, a ‘belief’, to justify their actions to themselves and to others. They do this because they are human; they do this because it is unacceptable to humans to do what they know is wrong; they do it and tell themselves that what they’re doing is right.
These intelligent human beings delude themselves into thinking that living their lies will somehow be easier than facing the truth; it never is.
They hurt themselves with these lies and they hurt others with these lies. The world they create for themselves through these choices lacks not only the pain they wish to avoid but the beauty that would ease that pain.
It is hard to be compassionate toward human beings who are intolerant, especially when their intolerance is directed at you; understanding their intolerance is really frustration with themselves, frustration with their own unwillingness to see and embrace the truth, allows us to see beyond their intolerance to the suffering human being at its core.
Garry Kasparov continues to put his life and his love on the line, every day, for the Russian people and the truth he knows can save them and the World. It is a great honor to be on the same planet with this human being. May his intellect and his love inspire all of our lives.
Garry Kasparov? Who is that? And what truth does he know? Please don’t tell us that he is “for democracy”.
Kasparov is another shill for the George Soros privatization crowd. Three cheers for Putin!
Anybody for a game of checkers?
Religion does not preach hate.
People Preach hate.
corporations don’t do rape the world, people do.
governments don’t oppress people oppress.
Abstract social constructs don’t physically exist, and cant do anything, only people can do these things.
dreamertoo,
Please don’t jump the gun on Kasparov. He supported and campaigned for that fascist Yeltsin in 1996 and has had a longstanding relationship with the Hoover Institution and various US neocons. He is originally from Azerbaijan, and was born with the last name Weinstein (to an Armenian mother and a Jewish father). I would not assume he has any real love of Russia or interest in the welfare of the Russian people.
He has demonstrated unquestionable bravery, as well as brilliance, but he seems to be more of an opportunist than anything else. He reminds me somewhat of Ahmed Chalabi.
jmacneil (10:55 am) writes, “Perhaps you should itemize the “mean-spirited blatherings” and “untenable opinions” instead of generalizing. … Be specific and try me!”
Actually, I was entirely specific at 10:35 am in pointing out your failure to comprehend the passage of Klein’s book that you yourself quoted. Why don’t you try to defend your idiotic contention that she “equated democracy with communism”? That should at least provide us with a few laughs.
kivals & ColdWarBaby have got you pegged exactly right, jmacneil. You’re a bad-faith phony & provocateur who has no interest whatever in serious exchange of ideas. You simply want to louse up the thread and make it be all about you.
jmacneil continues, blathering merrily along: “And, last but not least, what right, or inside information, gives you the right to decide if I am male or female?
- I can truly tell you that nothing is of less interest to me, than the gender of the phony who pumps out the ignorant bad-faith verbiage that you do.
Yeah, right, RichM, and your real name isn’t Wilfred Daehmler and your office isn’t that corner one on the third floor at Langley overlooking the south corner of the parking lot. You goofs ought to remove the roadrunner decals from the second drawer of your file cabinet because we can see them from the oblique satellite angles and they just make you seem more childish and amateurish than we know you are.
I’m sorry but I do not believe that
“Torture is always public,” she said. “In order for you to be scared, you have to know it’s going on.”
I think it depends on what public you are talking about. For example, in a colony, like Puerto Rico torture can exist in a twilight zone. You can see it, as in the case of the radiation torture of Puerto Rican Nationalist leader Pedro Albizu Campos while at the same time it has an element of mystery. That can lead the colonial power to deny what is actually happening and say it is the ravings of the radical fringe or a conspiracy theory.
On the other hand in a colonial situation torture and repression can be precived more clearly by those who are part of the colony but it is hidden to those who live in the “democratic” colonial power. Case in point prepression by US agencies in Puerto Rico for the better part of a century. A repression which is not seen in the US. Nor is it acknolwedged that Puerto Rico is a colony of the US. Not even is this acknowledged within the US left.
Two years ago the colonial police force (the FBI to you) killed Filiberto Ojeda Rios. A 72 year old Puerto Rican independence leader. It took more than 200 FBI agents to bring down one man. They then wounded him and left him to bleed to death.
Visible repression to Puerto Ricans living in Puerto Rico but invisable to North Americans.
AM A CD — So also am I a COMMON DREAMER.
COMMANDER_N_CHIMP — You’re very funny sometimes, about Naomi being “Canadian.
, while we’re both norte American(s) to many of the world ••• while we are also blessed with British journalism to inform us of what occurring in the USA. As comic Steven Wright says, “it’s a small world,…, but i wouldn’t want to paint it”
1 MESSENGER OF MANY — Your answer is empowering us now “I can only prepare myself not to become afraid to stand in truth.”
DREAMER TOO — I agree with mindset of the Germans that you describe, and wish to clarify the vulnerable context that drove so many so easily toward Hitler.
THE WONDERING YOU — I also agree with Americans feeling “inferior … impotent … and seething anger”, that NEOFASCISTs (lets call the kettle black) rulers are twisting our knickers tighter every day, with their bloody hands, and causing unrelenting evil throughout the Earth.
CURMUDGEON99 — Very well stated No faith condones terror! … It’s only individuals who commit the acts … It’s a human failing..
GAIL — Please keep reminding us of Jefferson’s perceptive dichotomy of the PEOPLE and GOV’T, where the FEAR is rightly and beneficially held in the GOV’T for the people’s displeasure and governing.
GGPEARL — Thank you, for reminding us all that our authentic self is the best gift to give anyone else, “What a lovely community this is.”
PEACEMAKER — While I’ll agree in a small part that religion does preach hate, it is those interpreting religion that do the preaching (actual speaking to others).
KIVALS — Lovely sentiments, echoing the non-violent approach of a saint having to deal with some misguided, but stubborn seeker. Combined with RICH M, you’ve done an impressive job of deflating the hot air, while leaving the person standing.
RICH M — I like your approach, both incisive and kindly advising, when you deal with:
J MACNEIL — You are tremendously mistaken in your belief that about Naomi, “Obviously, she is one of those harmless type”.
PUCK TWAIN — Wonderfully insightful:
DREAMER TOO — So very TRUE, when you say:
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is enough to meet everybody’s need, but there is not enough to meet everybody’s greed »
It’s waste of time to respond to JMacNeil. To claim that Naomi Klein is equating democracy with communism should be all we need to hear to know about that person’s agenda. Ignore JMacNeil. Why invite further distortion of facts on this website?
u nspire, nspire
thnx, u npwr dreams too
“The thesis of the book is that the central claim of our time that the free market and democracy go hand in hand is a fairy tale.” So true. We live in this country under the false sense that we have a democracy. We have fascism. What good are elections when the votes are neither counted nor determine the winner, it is a farce. You want democracy, look south. Read what Naomi posted recently on the ‘Nation’ site. South America is breathing new life into democracy. Good for them, they have suffered for decades under the oppression of capitalism, corporate America style. Globalism was sucking the life from them.
South America is breathing new life into democracy. Good for them, they have suffered for decades under the oppression of capitalism, corporate America style. Globalism was sucking the life from them.
Good point, racom40. But that’s what it’s doing to us now.
Speaking of South America, the CIA is in Venezuela, stirring up trouble. The white right-wingers there are making fun of Hugo Chavez and showing pictures of him as being an ape and saying he’s got Negro blood. The right-wing racists are also giving the Inca people in Bolivia a bad time, beating up on them, etc.
The U.S. will never stop meddling in other countries. Of course the Bush-Cheney Crime Syndicate want regime change in Venezuela since it is an oil-rich country; Bolivia is rich in natural gas.
The White House is rich in natural gas too.
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______________________ E M P O W E R E D _____________________
1 MESSENGER OF MANY — Synchronicity has provided me today with an empowering method forward, as you so well state, “I can only prepare myself not to become afraid to stand in truth.” Below I provide the framework for our individualized preparations to battle the beast, and its favorite feeling _F_E_A_R_
SIOUXROSE — In a another thread says, “What has it reflected back to us about ourselves”
VOX CLAMANTIS — Also in that other thread says,“A kind of speciation is taking place in our society … recognition of who we are and where we stand”
We are ALL suffering, through NAOMI’s idea of SHOCK, which is much the same as those facing a diagnosis of CANCER, who are consumed by
DARK FEAR, and hug the pillows of their bed alone in a vain attempt to find solace and comfort - but the bed only provides a place for sleep.
This is the recommendation from the SHOCK DOC, to live our lives even larger and dream imaginary possibilities, that may very well appear penultimately as miracles and our salvation
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is enough to meet everybody’s need, but there is not enough to meet everybody’s greed »
Love is the antidote to fear.
Feel the fear and let it go; fill yourself with love. Loving and being loved frees your mind your heart your body and your soul; your creativity, your imagination, your passion are free to flow. Your sights can be set free of fear’s constraints.
Starting from fear, reacting to fright, shaking with terror are as natural to human beings as being caressed by a gentle breeze, rejuvenated by a sudden gust, cleared and clarified by a windy day.
Shock fills us with a sense of calamity, but the only real calamity is not recognizing that we’ve been shocked, forgetting we’re human, acting like nothing has happened when our world has been turned upside down.
See and feel the fear then see and feel beyond it.
Remember you are a human being, a simple beautiful vulnerable loving human being.
Love embraces fear then sits quietly with it till it’s time for it to go. Felt fear comes and goes, felt love remains.
“It’s only love and that is all why should I feel the way I do”
The Beatles “It’s Only Love”
“When your world has been shattered
Ain’t nothin’ else matters
It ain’t over - It’s only love
And that’s all – yeah”
Bryan Adams “It’s Only Love”
A little something to hit back with when the shock jocks shock you ..
It’s only love live with Tina Turner