‘Illegal Aliens’ in Our Midst: What Would Jesus Do?
With unauthorized immigration a central issue in the presidential campaign and the leading candidates defining themselves as strong adherents to some form of Christianity, the Christmas season is an appropriate time to ask as one person did during the November 28 Republican CNN/YouTube debate in St. Petersburg, Florida, “What would Jesus do?”
On the heels of that question, which happened to be about capital punishment, someone asked the candidates if they believed every word of the Bible. The three who responded–Rudy Giuliani, Mike Huckabee, and Mitt Romney–indicated in essence that, while one cannot always take the Bible literally, it provides a set of guidelines for how life should be lived. Undoubtedly, the other major candidates–Democrat and Republican alike–would have answered similarly.
It would seem to follow that these guidelines help explain why these self-avowed believers and many of their fellow Republican candidates cast stones at opponents whom they judge to have erred in the ever-intensifying war against unsanctioned immigration. As for the Democrats, there is no such internal finger-pointing-at least on this matter. Yet what is most striking about discussion of immigration and boundary enforcement is how much agreement there is among all the major candidates of both parties.
Although some people might try to argue that this pro-enforcement consensus flows from a shared commitment to the rule of law, it would be a real stretch to contend that exclusion of people born on one side of the territorial boundaries that divide our world is consistent with biblical teachings.
Unlike President Bush and many others, I cannot claim to be in direct conversation with God. Nonetheless, I find it unimaginable that Jesus would attack anyone for supporting in-state tuition for “illegals” (as Romney has recently done to Huckabee), or castigate someone for employing workers who crossed a national territorial divide without government sanction (as Giuliani has recently done to Romney). Nor would Jesus pat any candidate’s back for trying to repel “aliens” with walls and fences along the U.S-Mexico boundary and ever-more border and immigration agents (which all major candidates support to varying degrees)–practices that have resulted in thousands of migrant deaths over the last decade, and a huge increase in deportations–and with it, divided families. Indeed, I can’t even envision Jesus accepting “illegal” or “alien” as terms for classifying human beings.
The parable of Christmas–as it recounts Mary’s and Joseph’s search for shelter–concerns itself with, among other matters, how we treat uninvited guests who arrive on our proverbial doorsteps. And the parable’s message is clear as to what to do. As ordained Baptist minister Mike Huckabee–whose new campaign commercial says “no” to sanctuary cities and amnesty, and calls for building a border fence–said in St. Petersburg, the Bible teaches us (as do the best traditions of all major religions and humanist ethical codes) to “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
So for those who profess to love God and embrace Jesus and the Bible as their ethical sources, the choice seems obvious: either stop invoking them or, better yet, live up to the principles you claim. This would entail seeing and treating so-called illegals as our brothers, sisters, neighbors, and members of our various communities –as people who are part of us–rather than a “them” to be excluded.
Imagine how different the presidential debates and the candidates’ individual platforms surrounding immigration would be if all of us were to take Reverend Huckabee’s words to heart.
Joseph Nevins is an associate professor of geography at Vassar College. He is the author of A Not-so-distant Horror: Mass Violence in East Timor (Cornell University Press). City Lights Books will publish his latest book, Dying to Live: A Story of U.S. Immigration in an Age of Global Apartheid, in early 2008.
Huckabee is a bible thumping pimp. If he should ever get elected to the Presidency we would soon wish to have Bush back. Jesus would not have any borders to begin with, those imaginary lines drawn on maps don’t really exist.
Who in the hell cares what Jesus would do? This is religious garbage. Bring all the troops home from everywhere abroad and defend the border despite what people like this think.
Jesus, like anyone with a truly active brain cell, would repeal the iniquitous free-trade agreements and demand that the laws of the country be obeyed without favor by rich and poor alike.
This article reads like a vote for Huckabbee ad to me. And you are right Countess.
Parallax, I too see the free trade agreements as iniquitous. In fact, it is highly likely that it is the direct effects of the free trade agreements on the Mexican population that has stimulated a surge of border crossings by Mexican people looking for work in America.
In all of the over heated blathering about immigration, the larger question goes unaddressed. The total human population is what will ultimately destroy the quality of life for all humanity and likely take down a good part of the biosphere with it. This is the $10,000 debacle that the Reverend Huckleberry and all of his Theocon ilk won’t touch with a 1000 mile long pole. They are programmed to breed and the program can not be changed- to all of our detriment.
Jesus would say to the big corporations and their puppets who oppress and exploit poorer countries’ resources that, in turn, cause “illegal” immigration in the first place, as well as, predatory lending and business practices at home, that are ‘chocking the life of the American people’. He would say: “Stop COVETING your neighbors’ property.” He DOES say in Revelation 11:18 that he will”…cause the ruin of those that are ruining the Earth”.
Under the Biblical law of Moses (Leviticus), every
fiftieth year is to be celebrated as a year of
Jubilee, and at this season , all debts are to be
erased; the crops, the land, the houses, all unwalled
property etc., returned to its former owners. Jesus H.
Christ himself said that he did not come to overturn
the laws of Moses but to fulfill them. As a
god-fearing society and a nation suppposedly founded
on Christian principles, we are long overdue for
Jubilee. Our government leaders, and heretical
politicians, Huckabee, Obama, Bush, Clinton, Romney,
et al. have never celebrated Jubilee. They are thus
demonic stooges who worship the golden calf. They
must be burned alive and their unclean ashes buried
in a damp pit so that the swirling smoke from their
charred bodies does not offend the nostrils of Jehovah
forever. Then wild animals must be sent to devour
their children.
If Jesus truly is the reason for the season, let us
celebrate peace and joy in his name with a great
Jubilee bonfire and a setting free of the wild
beasts.
America was made out of Illegal Aliens, Give some guidelines to become citizens, and make some laws that can be enforced!
That would be a good start!
Immigration from Latin America is without a doubt a direct result of Free Trade Agreements as well as the crushing impact of structural adjustment programs of the IMF and World Bank. It has been highly documented by many World agencies such as OXFAM, and the UN, etc. OXFAM writes that these agreements and programs have hit Latin American countries very hard, creating high levels of poverty and no social structures in place to assist the increasing numbers of people who have been run off their lands and who have no means by which to earn a subsistence wage.
Before you increase border security and elevate the fear of “illegals” (nasty terminology), perhaps you should dig deeper and ask why there is such an influx of immigrants.
As long as we permit the use of the label “illegal immigrant”, we help perpetuate the wrong-thinking frame developed by the Repugs. Elizabeth Kucinich suggested it would be more accurate to refer to them as economic refugees — this turns the conversation toward the cause and not the symptom.
You can make whatever stupid laws you want. Just because something is legal, doesn’t make it moral. And just because something is illegal, doesn’t make it immoral. We have been migrating as a species for ~200,000 years. It is a survival instinct. It is part of our basic nature. That is why more than 12,000,000 people just in our own country are breaking this stupid law right now. Imagine if the states decided to prohibit migration (we saw shades of this during Katrina, and we all read the Grapes of Wrath). This notion that you are stuck wherever you happened to have been born based on some made-up construct of “national boundaries” is absurd. There are hundreds of thousands of Americans living “illegally” in countries all over the world. I wonder how New York City our L.A. would react if countries suddenly deported them en masse, breaking up families, confiscating property, and just dumping them any old place for us to deal with. We would probably look at this a little differently. But as long as immigration has a brown face, it is easy to attack… A great book is Open Borders by Theresa Hayter. She makes an excellent argument for doing away with them.
And one more thing, if people are not allowed to migrate, then capital sure as hell shouldn’t be able to. It is such a double standard - corporate personhood when it is convenient, and then they rise above those laws when it is not.
I continue to wonder at the opinions expressed here about illegal immigration. To me, the hallmarks of progressivism include humane policies that benefit the majority of citizens and legal residents rather than a select few — policies such as fairness and equity in taxation; special concern for the food and housing needs of families who are struggling economically; subsidized higher education for well-qualified students who cannot afford it; universal single-payer medical insurance; and robust environmentalism.
I don’t understand how a progressive can believe it’s humane to lure poor people from their homes south of the border (which often splits up families) to make the long, hazardous trip north to find work. That they’re exploited here only makes things worse for them, as well as for the Americans and legal immigrants whose jobs they take by undercutting prevailing wages. This is particularly egregious in the construction sector.
If illegal immigrants numbered a few hundred thousand nationwide this would not be an issue, just a footnote in our economy. But estimates range between 10 and 20 million uninvited souls here, exerting a sharp downward pull on wages for legal workers without college degrees. These are the “ordinary folks” we progressives claim to care about, and whom most Republicans consider expendable!
If we use our own history as a guide, any “path to citizenship” for illegals, however arduous, would produce another huge wave of migrants in its wake, just as the last U.S. amnesty program did. So where does it end? And how is this policy “progressive” in any way?
I agree with A Voice Apart as to the role outrageous trade agreements have played in creating poverty in Mexico and Central America, but simply sending millions of workers north will never create a good life for the majority of their citizens. These countries have to create their own solutions, as most of South America is finally doing.
What did Jesus DO?
When asked what people should do he showed a coin and said, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s.”
He also said, “Let them that have ears, hear.”
Jesus parents recognized the nation’s right to make laws…by going into Bethlehem because of the decree of Augustus Caesar that all the world be taxed. (So they had to return to their town…even though it created a hardship for Mary and Joseph.)
Jesus apparently recognized national laws. He was often tempted by his followers who thought he came to save them from the cruelty of Roman rule. Jesus told them that his kingdom was not of this world.
A few years ago I would have agreed that NAFTA was the cause of all of this and we should be compassionate Christians.
Within the last two years, my neighborhood has been almost taken over by hispanics. We have always been an integrated area; blacks, whites, and yes, some hispanics. But not like now. The ones that are now coming in have trashed the area. Crime has gone up. Drugs are readily available. I called when I first realized that the shed across the street was being used as a “smokehouse”. It simply got moved down the block. My next door neighbors moved. The people that moved in are non-neighborly at the best. They park on my lawn and throw their garbage everywhere. When I objected they said “But you don’t use your yard.” They’ve turned their garage (right next to our lot) into a club house. We used to sit in our patio in the summer. We had a nice flower garden there. Now, it seems to belong more to them. Last winter, they stripped down a car and pulled in front of my house. Both I and the neighbor across the street told the police where it came from and they simply said they knew nothing about it.
We are a working class area. The houses here are not expensive. For years, people took care of their property and we all knew each other. Even after Katrina, we could get together for a block party to raise some money. It would be impossible now. Many people have moved. Several homes have been bought and then abandoned. When my neighbor sold two years ago, the house was sold for 100K. Another neighbor with a comparable house who is considering selling now told me that she was told not to ask more than 70K. Housing prices have gone down, but not like they have here. We are now considered a depressed area.
The article says that we should make room for “Mary and Joseph”. I am retired. I worked all my life. Twenty years ago, when I was nearly 50, I had saved enough money for a down payment and “fix-up” costs for a house for my older sister and myself. We grew up poor and this was the first home we had. I did a lot of work on it myself. Now, there is no room for us.
Mexico is a wealthy country. In fact, their richest billionaire has more money than Bill Gates. The rich there live like kings. They care nothing for the health, welfare, or education of their poor. Moreover, their policy on illegal immigrants is to throw them into jail. Why can’t Mexico make room for “Mary and Joseph”? Why can’t there be any room for me here?
dear Sir:In 1982 I worked the last union job at Dow Chemical at plant A on a pipe rack because Dow Chemical and the petrochemical industry conspired with each other under the right to work laws to destroy the union with the deliberate and illegal use of illegal aliens with malice toward the law of the land. In 1985 all of our health care and cost of living raises given to us every year was discontinued because of the over saturation of the illegals in the market place that wages was cut in half and all benefits were thrown out the window. I made $15 dollars an hour in 1981 with full union benefits. In less than two month without no union work my wages were $10 dollars an hours with no benefits thanks to the worthless illegals who were used to wage war against the American people and organized labor. In 25 years the last time I was in Freeport Texas, Painters were making $12.80 an hour after 25 years of inflation from $10 dollars an hour. You do the math moron! The petrochemical industry has been turned into a plantation of industrial craftsman’s whose skills have become sharecroppers of their trade to Dow Chemical and the petrochemical industry where the working man has been condemned to economic slavery. The illegals have destroyed apprentices around the state. They have reduce the skill level of the crafts. Dow complains that they can not find anyone to work their high paying jobs. High paying jobs compared to who!To what! Working at Dow is just an overpaid helper that has nothing to do with journeyman work in spite of all the deadly risks we had to deal with the plant blowing up or from getting Cancer! Many of my friends like me had to leave the state to get a raise. It was better to drive 26 hours to the West Coast to get a five dollars an hour raise than it was to argue with dead men who dont care if you live or die! Many of my friends just quit construction all together because of the unjust treatment of Dow Chemical and its non-union contractors who had a monopoly on labor that they refuse to let the market determine the wages. I have encouraged many young men that if they had any self respect for them selves that they would not work construction because there is no honor, no decency, and no self respect working in the state of Texas as long as the Right to Work laws exist. It is a law given to America by the Nazi’s. The illegals have cost me my craft. They forced nme to go to night school for 2 years at night full time to be able to take care of my family. Who is going to pay me for the hundreds of thousands of dollars that I lost! The illegals! I wont them all deported. They have destroyed an honorable way of life in America called construction. These people are like a diease that consume all around them who lowers the standard of living of one’s way of life, who turn high paying jobs into minimum wage jobs over night. It is because of illegals that there are no more 8 hour work days. I spent the last 15 years of my working years being forced to work 7 days a week 10-12 hours a day for months at time with no consideration given for ones family. It costs me my family having been forced to work so many hours in a day all ther time. All the benefits that FDR had brought to this nation has been destroyed by the illegals. They have turned back the clock a 100 years.! I am tired of those who play the devils advocate whose argument is destroying this nation by demanding that we feel sorry for those who are like a plague that is devouring our nation! Let them die. Send them home one way or the other. If they are going to break the law to get in this nation. Don’t be surprised when this nation gets tired of the blow hards and take the law into their own hands. No law on this land under no condition or reason is going to force these 13 million people down our throats. If congress is not going to obey the law. Then we the people have a right to ignore the laws congress writes if they have the gaul to give these rats amnesty or citizenship. The people will not accept this treason! Amnesty will mean war!
We are all illegal aliens.
Everything that AdeleTheCzech said I agree with. Hey, if there are no illegal human beings then the next time I visit France, I’ll just stay there. I’ll say, “There are no illegal human beings.” How far do you think I would get with that? Nowhere.
Look the folks who come legally go through a whole lot of bureaucratic paper shuffling, and what you are saying to these law abiding folks is well, you should have just run across the border. Now, do we want folks who don’t have criminal records and some godforsaken disease or not? Also packing people into the back of trucks is human trafficking. You are trafficking slave labor. Ridiculous. This has to stop. Yank the treaties. Enforce the laws. Kick the corrupt corporates in the butt whatever you have to do.
Jesus probably would just give them amnesty. But he would also do hat he could to abolish NAFTA and GATT, as well as end 3rd World poverty and exploitation.
I’ve been reconsidering my stance on illegal immigration and how best to solve the problem. I still think we should go after the employers and not the undocumented people themselves. These people don’t deserve to be demonized. It’s not their fault but that of big business and capitalism. The big bosses want the masses to fight with one another over jobs and resources.
The thing I’m reconsidering is what to do with the immigrants themselves. I have stated here before that we should just make it illegal to hire the undocumented, and that they would go back to Mexico and fight their own oligarchy. The path to citizenship for the ones already here is the idea that I’m kicking around.
There are times when I’ve thought we should make them all legal and then close the door. But that alone isn’t going to kill the root of the weed. We certainly cannot and shouldn’t even attempt to just round them all up. It’s mean, not to mention impossible. I feel the same way about building walls and fences.
I think repealing NAFTA and GATT and forgiving 3rd World debt will at least go a long way towards solving this issue.
People in any part of the world shouldn’t be risking injury, death, or incarceration just to have a better life, especially when that “better life” means lousy, low-paying work. if you just let everyone in, without fixing the problems American workers already face, you’ll create another underclass, and with that increased tension amongst the people.
In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus suggested that we treat those outside our own tribe with the same respect and moral standing as we would treat ourselves, and we need to meet their needs as ours would be met. Seems clear enough to me that people don’t need to be documented by the state in order to gain our respect, love, and care. It’s our moral responsibility. Locking someone up simply for being undocumented, denying someone food, care, education, etc., simply for being undocumented is unChristian by Jesus’ words.
Some people aren’t bothering to read what others have been saying. They’re just so full of love (which to them is a warm furry feeling) that just everything’s o.k…kinda like the Woodstock hippie people. Fine, as long as you’re living off your parents…or welfare…or don’t give a hoot about your children, your bills, your job, and other responsibilities.
lobster-We’re dealing with people here. I work for a living and have responsibilities too, but so do the undocumented. They’re not coming here to stick it to you or purposely displace or overrun you (as some people seem to want). They just want to make money and possibly better their lives and feel they have nothing left to lose.
I think one thing we need to look at is why people are going through all that trouble and putting themselves in danger and jeopardy just to come here.
I feel for what matthood has gone through. My father worked for P&LE railroad for 12-13 years, and was laid off and replaced by a bunch of younger cheaper workers. We struggled for a long time and haven’t really recovered from that. But people are blaming and casting stones at the immigrants. Save them for big business. That’s who deserves the blame. They’re exploiting them as much as they disenfranchised you. They want you to resent the immigrants because it takes the heat off of the fatcats and thusly neutralizes solidarity.
We can solve this problem without mass arrests/deportations, hatred, fences, walls, and bloodshed. It’s all about economic fairness.
Mexico just raised the minimum wage to $4.80 a DAY. That is also a BIG problem. Our Sears refrigerator was made in Mexico, as is the wiring harness on Ford Trucks and MCI buses for a couple of examples. The Mexican companies are not paying their employees a fair wage, even when they have so called good jobs, manufacturing ‘American brand’ named goods.
So they come here any way they can to earn a living and many send money home to support their families. They are just trying to live. It is the governments and big business who have messed it all up. They do that so their CEOs can make a fortune and they screw the lower and middle class citizens of both America and Mexico.
Sneaking across a border between countries in order to obtain a job is tantamount to stealing. Unfortunately that’s what these illegal aliens are doing. I’d guess that Jesus wouldn’t condone stealing.
However, that doesn’t absolve the U.S. government, the Mexican government and the governments of many of the countries form which these people are trying to escape. They are just a guilty of stealing and corruption.
Fortunately we in the U.S. have a system in place to correct our government — our ability to vote out special interest serving politicians. The populace must begin to take a very active role in the government. It’s gotten increasingly difficult with our ever-growing monstrous government but I think more and more Americans are ready for change and they will not be denied much longer.
As for the illegal aliens, it’s up to them to work to change their governments, which may happen violently in many cases, and force them to protect their rights.
AdeleTheCzech
right on
abovetheclutter
It’s naive to imagine that the current state of conditions for poor Mexicans is not a result of the influence of U.S. government and large U.S. corporate interests in collusion.
The U.S. puts a great deal of pressure on neighbors who have poor people who provide cheap labor for manufacturing and agriculture. There are a lot of reasons why we should feel that our own policies towards Mexico have created and are continuing to contribute to the conditions that have forced Mexicans to try to enter this country.
As a reporter I interviewed poorer Mexicans working in the U.S. and above all they told me that conditions in their home country were so abominable that they were forced by desperation to find a way to keep their families alive.
funeocons, at 2:43pm–I couldn’t have put it any better; excellent post!
matthood–you correctly identify the culprit, Dow chemical and right-to-work laws, but you vent your wrath on the Mexican laborers–why? Because Dow is too powerful to oppose? Because you still hope they’ll hire you back some day? The Mexicans are your brothers; they are being exploited just like you, because governments like Texas don’t respect and defend workers of any kind, and because unions are either gone or are whipped puppies.
The economic refugees from Mexico (and elsewhere) need to be encouraged to come forward and get right with our laws. That would look like amnesty to diehard opponents, but there is nothing else that will work. Consistent enforcement of the border and of businesses, and an enduring commitment by governments to uphold worker’s rights is what is needed.
Which Jesus? I can’t say whether the original Jesus was an invention, but there sure have been reinventions.
The modern Jesus, apparently, would build a wall to keep them out, put a barcode on the foreheads of those who are here, and build large concentration camps just in case lots more decide to come over all at once.
At least, this is the sort that the fundies have built for themselves.
Earlier this month, The Independent (from England) published an article titled “Slave labour that shames America” (The Independent, December 19, 2007). The article focused on Burger King’s unwillingness to pay an extra penny a pound for the tomatoes picked; in researching the article, the journalists found working conditions to be so abusive that the workers could reasonably be referred to as paid slaves. I cite this as a reminder that the migrant workers are not the enemy; it’s the corporations who want the migrant workers who are destroying jobs for Americans! No matter what paltry amount is paid these workers, it’s more than they would make in Mexico–and what the migrant workers are paid is a lot less for the corporations than it would if they were paying Americans who were protected by labour laws (even inadequate labour laws).
As for the question: what would Jesus do? Well, he might remind us first that while Joseph had a home and shop in Nazareth, when they were forced to go to Bethlehem, Mary and Joseph became homeless people. They knew well the privations that occur when the laws of the land protect the powerful, but not the powerless. That history may account for Jesus’ friendship for outcasts and disdain for the wealthy.
Migration is a fundamental human right. If we are truly endowed by our creator with inalienable rights, choosing where we live must certainly be one of them. Otherwise, we are mere subjects and not free at all. It is easy for us, who live on the backs of the third world, to get all self-righteous about how “these illegals moved in and ruined the place”. Well, before you speak, go see what our fellow citizens have done to their homes and neighborhoods. Since NAFTA was enacted, an estimated 2,000,000 Mexican farmers have lost their way of life. There simply are not enough jobs to accommodate them all in Mexico. Not to mention that they have their own immigration woes as the worse off Guatemalans and Hondurans provide a source of cheap migrant labor in Mexico.
If we believe in “global free markets”, labor MUST be as free to move about the world as capital. Otherwise, you’ve got slavery my friends. We can’t have our dirt cheap cake and eat it too. My experiences in Mexico are that people do not want to migrate — they would rather stay in their homes, with their families, speak their language, eat their food, practice their culture without being scorned, and not risk their lives and well-being at the hands of coyotes. We can thank the WTO, the IMF and the World Bank for making it so Mexico, despite its enormous natural and human resources, cannot rise above 3rd world conditions. Mexico has great labor laws on their books — they just can’t enforce them because of these institutions.
Abovetheclutter: That’s why we have the School of Americas — to train the militaries in those countries on the fine art of torture and repression to make sure that those people can’t ever rise up and change their governments! And the NED, and USAID, and the CIA — rigging those elections to make sure they never get someone who represents their interests through the ballot box. Give me a fuckin’ break and go read a history book.
Where did all the freak libertarians come from? This is usually a progressive site.
“I can’t even envision Jesus accepting “illegal” or “alien” as terms for classifying human beings.”
No humanitarian would internalize this classification. All humans should be treated equally and given equal opportunities to empower themselves; feed, clothe and shelter themselves and their families, and live happy and productive lives.
Given that we all fall under the same umbrella as humans, one might also ask if Jesus would accept “robber barons” as more deserving than the rest of humanity.
Would Jesus have created the infamous WTO, NAFTA, and other egregious trade agreements which drove hundreds of thousands of people off their farm land; created mass unemployment; weakened or desroyed family structures; created social instability and compromised the environment while protecting the robber barons of the “New World Order”?
Have we forgotten: “Thou Shalt Not Steal”? Is it too threatening to demand that politicians discuss and be held “accountable” for the real issues surrounding the inhumanity of human beings?
It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can discuss the human social problems of “immigration” and not address its cause.
Illegal immigrants are by proxy commiting ECONOMIC GENOCIDE on African Americans!
I went to Charlotte, NC, and went into a Bojangles, in a predominantley black neighborhood, serving only blacks, but there were no blacks working there. Black unemployment is an epidemic there. My house was built 17 years ago with many Black subcontractors, but now all are out of business. What happened here?
My cousin is a class 2 felon who served his time and has led a model life for the last 3 years after getting out of prison, he tried to get into construction, with home builders. Because of his past mistake he is being denied access to the American dream, even though he paid his debt to society! But yet an illegal can be wanted in Mexico, steal a social security #, have an accident and leave the scene of a crime, and never once face a background check!
Screw you!
Look at all the anti-immigrant comments even here on CommonDreams!
Democrats should get a clue that this issue is poison, and it’s getting more poisonous every day!
Anyone in favor of unlimited immigration should be honest about what they a favor… a majority hispanic United States within a few years.
But pro-immigrant commenters avoid the long view, and talk about the pure Christian virtues. I assume that all of them have already given all they possess to the poor, including their computers, and their comments are being posted from public libraries… which makes it a little odd that so many of them appear on Christmas Day, when every public library in the USA is closed.
It’s just another Christmas miracle, I suppose.
funeocons —
I don’t know if you noticed in my post but I stated how I want to work to change our government. Fundamental to those changes would be removal of corrupt CIA involvement in the affairs of other countries. I think you and I may be on the same page when it comes to anger at our government’s meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations. If we worked to remove all the negative American factors you spoke of, wouldn’t it also remove some roadblocks to the citizens of other countries changing their governments?
I spent quite some time working in Mexico at an orphanage for abandoned children. I’ve seen their experience first hand and I greatly sympathize with their plight. However I don’t agree that means we should just have open borders. The negative results of that have been expressed by several of the posts here. I certainly can’t force the Mexican or any other foreign government to change and I fight against my country interfering in foreign governments. But working on my government will definitely facilitate citizens of other countries working on theirs.
I don’t see this as a libertarian or progressive issue.
It’s also worth noticing that a lot of the anti-immigrant commenters seem to be the same blue-collar, union workers who used to be the backbone of the Democratic Party, way back when it still had a backbone!
If the Democratic Party represents the interests of Mexicans over the interests of the working class in the United States, they should hurry up and extend the privilege of voting in American elections to everybody in Mexico and Colombia and Peru and Argentina and Honduras and everywhere else south of the border, from the Rio Grande to Tierra del Fuego, because otherwise they have no natural constituency whatsoever.
I hate all this phony Christian purity from people who really aren’t so pure, or so Christian, and especially when they are so ignorant about Christianity that they think the Christmas story is a parable, as Joseph Nevins calls it in his self-righteous article.
Bren
thank you for submitting that story as an example of how it is American corporations that exploit poorer nations and drive their people to flee their own country in order to survive.
I would respectfully suggest that everyone try to get together on the issues of poverty, racism, unemployment and immigration and look at the causes and uses of these problems both inside our country and outside it.
We need to see the roots of all inequities and understand how corporations and corporate-driven politicians relentlessly manipulate our living and working environment. We need to organize in an inclusive manner to fight the exploitation of people.
We need to resist the strategic manipulating of ourselves as different groups, to resist blaming each other. Instead we must lose our “company store” mentality of working for and supporting corporate interests who are causing massive human suffering all over the world and start to point the finger at the cause of unemployment, poverty and social upheaval.
The problem with ‘no borders’ (which, emotionally, sounds pretty-good to me — although national-citizenship should maybe be something ‘earned’) is — it would instantly institute a ‘One World Government’. [Some you are already growing fearful-of those who are pushing-hard for that ‘order out of chaos’, already — and ‘with Cause…]
And, although Governments are a ‘needful thing’ (as are the Laws they govern-with/for), one-government only would instantly create such an opportunity for Abuse that FEW leaders/movements/Interests could resist the Temptation. Another ‘issue’ is the need and welcome-Nature of Diversity — one-world Culture, once agreed-upon or enforced, would shortly lead to a sharp-downturn in ’survivor-skills’ and result in a horridly-’same/same’ Society, would it not? A Caste-system would no-doubt accompany any such mass-Institution, followed by a subsequent ‘aristocracy’ for those lucky-enough to be born to any ‘mainstream-element’ of Privilege.
I think ‘open-Borders’ sounds like a good-compromise.
In the US regards ‘illegals’, I would institute (with heavy/repeating-fines for ANY uncooperative Employers) a newer/Progressive Tax-Code (or just drag-out 1965’s, for example), and also then force newly-Taxed employers of all/any non-Citizens to deduct from their-checks twice the Tax that actual Citizens-pay. [This would immediately ‘level the field’ for native/Citizen-workers (since it would perforce result in higher-costs for even those willingly-underpaid ‘illegals’), and institute a real-Incentive for non-Citizens to ‘get Legal’.]
In meantime, instantly there would be ‘nothing to resent’, since non-Citizens would be “carrying their weight, and then-some”, and increased-Taxation from Employees PLUS hugely-more from all profitable-Concerns/individuals (paying Progressively-again) would ‘cover all other-concerns’ re: those Open-Borders…
Sound OK?
Again, the fleas are debating, who owns the dog? Hijacking the Bible and other Holy Scriptures without actually living up to their intended messages. Let those Christians like the Sojourners comment on that and remind them of those Christian values that do not require the religious extremism by Romney and the like. America is still a dream to be full filled..so all those like me who came here to build their personal dreams and those dreams that require all of us. If we are fortunate, we will participate in this democracy. Only participation will ensure transparency and change.
Christ would surely endorse fair-Taxation spent creating Equity for all — “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” (Mark 12:13-17; the same passage appears, slightly modified, in Matthew 22:15-22 and Luke 20:20-26).
‘Kills two-birds with one-stone’ (and ‘not a bird falls’, so instituters would be Rewarded!). And American’s can’t argue with Jesus…right?
[Christ would hate any ‘Flat-Tax’, however…or the non-Progressive (’unearned-favored’) current-Codes]
Few days back, on DN:
HOWARD ZINN: It goes way back. I mean, how ironic, since we are a nation of immigrants, right? There are the Native Americans, and there are all the rest of us who are immigrants. And every immigrant coming here after an earlier wave of immigrants is looked upon as a foreigner. The idea of an “illegal immigrant” does not make sense. It is not a human way to approach people.
And we have gone through anti- immigrant waves at the turn of the seventeenth century—that is, at the end of the eighteenth century, end of the seventeenth century. We’ve gone through the periods of anti-immigrant feeling, the Alien Sedition Acts of 1798. And then we went through the anti-Irish feeling of the 1830s and 1840s. And then when the Europeans from Eastern and Southern Europe began coming in, we faced anti-immigration, anti-immigrant feelings in this country. And they are all odious, because they are anti-human.
The signs I remember carrying in those demonstrations, they were talking about—the signs said, “No human being is illegal.” That’s how we should look upon the situation. And if all people are created equal, then that applies to wherever you are born, whatever border you have crossed. And I think we ought to begin speaking boldly, and the Democratic Party is shameful in its timidity on this issue. And I hope we won’t forget that immigrants are human beings, and legal, illegal, or wherever you were born, once you are here in this country, you deserve the same rights as everybody else.
This is what Jesus said when asked about the truth about the Scriptures.
4. THE TALK WITH NATHANIEL
159:4.1 And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus’ pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: “Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings — the best as I view it — and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?” When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:
159:4.2 “Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.
159:4.3 “These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.
159:4.4 “Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.
159:4.5 “Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies — men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.
159:4.6 “The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.
159:4.7 “The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.
159:4.8 “Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.
159:4.9 “But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.
159:4.10 “But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”
159:4.11 Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master’s pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus’ ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master’s instruction.
http://www.PaulKemp.info
Waht would Jesus do? He certainly wouldn’t vote for any Republican other than Ron Paul, or for Hillary Clinton. His message of love, compassion, social justice and peace is being subverted and betrayed in his name. Whether one believes in his divinity or not, his (and the Buddha’s) message is now more cogent than ever.
Six thousand American citizens apply for two hundred openings at a new WalMart. And I could give a rat’s ass what Jesus is going to do about it: what the f*ck are WE going to do about it? Jesus isn’t gonna do sh!t.
As long as there’s a single child in this nation who wants to attend college that can’t afford it, no scholarships for non-citizens.
So if Jesus wouldn’t castigate — better, imprison — employers who hire them and pay slave wages while citizens of this country who used to support a family on those jobs are forced into vying for one of those WalMart slots, then I have no use for that Jesus whatsoever, and neither should you.
So don’t hand me your pompous bull$h!t. Progressives should stand for working citizens of all races, creeds, sexuality, and nations of origin. In Mexico, those are Mexican citizens first. In the US, those are US citizens first.
Until the laws of supply and demand are repealed and humans evolve into benevolent clumps of molecules floating around in a brine-filled stainless steel cylinder, we have to establish priorities in this real world we live in. And sometimes it ain’t pretty.
Far better we have good wages and benefits for a Mexican-American (or any other) citizen in the US than slave wages and no benefits for a Mexican citizen in the US.
Could we fear them, then detain, torture and murder them like everyone else?
If Jesus was here he’d be illegal also.
We need the illegal aliens to stay, many have taken out mortgages that need to be paid.
http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/050813_mortgages.htm
They are now a bank asset.
Most of the jobs illegal aliens do are jobs many Americans are too fat or lazy to do, but for those who are willing to do them, the pay is so low that it makes more sense for them to go on welfare and be supported by the citizen tax payer. The reason the pay is so low is the minimum wage. Those making the federal minimum wage working a 40 hr week earn 12,168 per year. Two members in the family making this wage earn 24,336. Health Insurance premiums for the average family are over 12,000 dollars if they have no employer paid insurance, and if they do, they pay 3,280 dollars on average for their share (for a 45 yo individual it would be 5,500 on his own policy). Poverty level for a family of 4 is defined as 20,650, and 10,200 for the individual. Make more than that and you are fine (are they nuts for both?).
So deduct health insurance premiums, and whats left, well, you have credit cards to make up the difference, or you go uninsured, or you do not work and go on welfare.
Those who can only get a job at the minimum wage choose welfare, and the minimum wage jobs are left for the illegals. So it’s a self serving prophecy, keep the minimum wage low enough so American people won’t do them, and this helps depress everyone elses salary, hire illegal aliens to do jobs that do not pay a living wage for Americans, and the corporations are happy. The citizen tax payer has to pay for those Americans who can not afford to work (welfare, medicaid)), not to mention for the hospital bills the illegals do not pay.
Most people make more than the Federal minimum, and state minimum wages are higher, but not by much, but shouldn’t the Federal minimum wage offer a living wage?. If it doesn’t, you might as well scrap it. In 1974 it was 2.00 dollars per hr. CPI adjusting says it should be 8.16, but CPI is a fraud, to get back to 1974 levels it should over 11 dollars per hr.
Of course, everyones salary should be higher if salaries were keeping up with real inflation, but while “household” income seems to be keeping up with inflation (not really), it is only because more families have 2 wage earners and some work 2nd jobs, individual salaries are not keeping up. Males, have lost 21% in todays dollars on their salaries (CPI adjusted), and male/women figure combined is 12% lower compared to 1974 (lower due to gap between men and women salaries closing), and thats assuming the fraudulent CPI is correct. My estimate is that the median wage earner (not household) is making 40% less today than 30 years ago, which explains why so many people struggle despite 2 incomes, and working 2nd jobs.
And thats why the gap between the top 1% and others is now at it’s highest level since 1928. If I remember, 1929 was not a good year.
In all fairness to the corporate critters who offer health insurance, health insurance costs for family coverage has increased 78% since 2001 (I thought we had no inflation, CPI says prices have went up 18% since 2001), so it’s harder to increase salaries. I guess you can say you work for the health insurance companies, welfare recipients and illegal aliens, not to mention the banks to pay their usury interest charges.
There are vehement comments on both sides.
Question: How many pro illegal immigrant people actually live in a neighborhood that has been trashed by illegal immigrants? How many of you are afraid of your neighbors? How many of you have taken pay cuts or lost your jobs or your way of life?
It is easy to consider the issue from an intellectual or “moral” point of view if you’re not affected by it. What would you do if you are facing day-to-day harassment and fearful about how worse it will get and lack the money to move?
A few years ago I could have discussed NAFTA or the WTO and criticized them. I still do. But right now, I’m sitting at my computer looking at the trash in my neighbor’s driveway - 20 feet from my window, wondering who is going to move into the “Rent to Own” houses down the street, and reminding myself to watch for the mail before it disappears from my mailbox.
I am sorry…I respect the man who we sketchily know as Jesus of 2,000 years ago…And I admit I am only responding to the title here. But, personally, I believe that the one thing that Jesus, a man of creative radicalism would NOT do, it would be to ask the question, “What would Jesus do”?
I think the idea of Jesus was to BE the revolution of thought and spirit. Get original and think for yourself. Platitudes are part of the problem!! Let’s give up the battle for who is the real Christian. For heaven’s sake, this is a mitt romney concept. The christian right has really defined the debate for EVERYONE it seems.
Sorry, but it is getting a little nauseating already….
Thanks, Paradigm Shifter.
WWJD? is beside the point. HE did what HE was supposed to do. And that’s what I believe we’re supposed to do: pray and meditate on our courses of action and seek guidance through prayer, the Bible, and other people (communion of saints).
I’ve lived in a border state for more than 30 years and in the last two I’ve seen the level of racism escalate to the point where it’s now socially acceptable! It’s common to overhear people talking about the “illegals” and how they “won’t speak English” (although most of these people are against teaching English to “them”).
These people in our backyard are migrating in order to survive, not to steal from us or ruin the quality of our lives. As long as the “haves” continue to exploit the “have-nots” they will continue to come. It’s human nature. We have to stop this exploitation. By demonizing the immigrants, we are playing right into the hands of the exploiters. They want us to fight among ourselves while they divvy up the fruits of all our labor.
Those of you attempting to speak for Christ or predicting “what he would say” should save it. Christ will ultimately speak for himself.
I too live in a border state. We pay hefty taxes for our county hospitals, special teachers and equipment (English as a Second Language plus Bilingual teachers for the regular classroom), plus Section 8 housing, Food Stamps, and other kinds of welfare. This, so our own citizens can be fired and required to take lesser paying jobs so people who came here illegally can “find” work.
Have you seen Mexico? Is that what you want your neighborhood to look like.
Have you heard Mexico? Is that what you want your neighborhood to sound like?
Have you tried entering Mexico with all the proper papers? They keep you waiting at the border crossing as they inspect (very slowly) every inch of your car) hoping you’ll pay the “mordido” (”bite”, a bribe) to speed things up.
Do you remember all the spring breakers who disappear south of the border, and no one seems to know anything…including the police? They don’t extradite criminals back to the U.S. for trial. Citizens of the U.S. cannot own property in Mexico. God help you if you were caught illegally in Mexico.
Wonderful people live in Mexico and I’ve spent time visiting them. Sitting in the patio in a large city, I could look up and see the rooftop security with big dogs patroling the perimeter fence adjacent to the back or side patio wall.
I also have visited in the homes of people where their floor is tamped down dirt, and have been served dinner there by the loveliest hostesses in the world.
That doesn’t mean we don’t have our cultural differences. Are you ready to accommodate those differences in your neighborhood?
SO…ILLEGAL immigrants come here illegally, work illegally, drive illegally & w/o insurance, and we tax ourselves to provide them with housing, schools for their children, health care, etc.
All of this so some people can make a larger profit?
Scrap all the Free Trade agreements made and defend the nations borders north and south. Build fences along our borders and keep out those illegal immigrants and all those budding terrorists that seem to thrive up in Canada. I suppose Mexico and Canada would start selling their petroleum energy within their borders at a far reduced price based on their costs and everyone else would pay the going rate but that is a small price for security and look at what you would save on the hidden costs of illegals, of course the cost of home grown labor would rise a bit and nannies would be hard to find but by God we would be safe and alien free.
I tell you after reading this site the Vermont secession group are on the right road and one might hedge ones bet and buy a bit of property there..
WWJD? He would deport them, and cast out of the temple all the scumbag American citizens who hire/exploit them.
To paraphrase the author, geography professor John Nevins, “imagine how different the [illegal migrant] debates” would be if people like him actually had to do physical WORK for a living.
Physical work is a completely foreign concept to these knee-jerk elitists. If they had a clue they would understand that it’s neither humane nor just to take the bread from one man’s family to feed another’s.
Thank you matthood, RuthK and others for sharing your personal experiences with low-wage replacement workers.
Opinions often depend on whose ox is being gored. As Bob K says: “it’s neither humane nor just to take the bread from one man’s family to feed another’s. Thank you matthood, RuthK and others for sharing your personal experiences with low-wage replacement workers.”
If we ask ourselves “What would PROGRESSIVES do?” the answer should be “Improve the lot of poor families in America — both citizens and legal residents.”
What part of ” Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free. The wretched refuse of your teaming shore. Send these the homeless tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.” do they not understand. l see no place in that quote asking for the best and brightest or puppet dictators with the cash to buy their way in.
I SAY “MR. BUSH….TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!!!!”
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
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