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Holding Bush Accountable
President Obama, on his first day in office, can make a number of
changes that will mark a clean break with the Bush presidency. He can,
and should, issue an executive order revoking any prior order that
permits detainee mistreatment by any government agency. He should begin
the process of closing Guantánamo, and he should submit to Congress a
bill to end the use of military commissions, at least as presently
constituted. Over the coming months he can pursue other reforms to
restore respect for the Constitution, such as revising the Patriot Act,
abolishing secret prisons and "extraordinary rendition," and ending
practices, like signing statements, that seek to undo laws. 
What we need to do is conceptually simple. We need to launch investigations to get at the central unanswered questions of Bush's abuse of power, commence criminal proceedings and undertake institutional, statutory and constitutional reforms. Perhaps all these things don't need to be done at once, but over time--not too much time--they must take place. Otherwise, we establish a doctrine of presidential impunity, which has no place in a country that cherishes the rule of law or considers itself a democracy. Bush's claim that the president enjoys virtually unlimited power as commander in chief at a time of war--which Vice President Dick Cheney defiantly reasserted just last month--brought us perilously close to military dictatorship.
As the former district attorney in Brooklyn, New York, I know the price society pays for a doctrine of impunity. Failure to prosecute trivializes and encourages the crimes. The same holds true of political abuses--failure to hold violators accountable condones the abuse and entrenches its acceptability, creating a climate in which it is likely to be repeated. The doctrine of impunity suggests, too, that there is a dual system of justice--one for the powerful and one for ordinary Americans. Because the concept of equal justice under the law is the foundation of democracy, impunity for high-level officials who abuse power and commit crimes erodes our democracy.
An impeachment proceeding against President Bush would have been the proper forum to expose the full scope of his abuses and to impose punishment. That obviously didn't happen, but investigations and prosecutions can still provide the vast civics lesson that an impeachment process would have given our nation.
There is another important reason for not "moving on." On January 20, Barack Obama will take an oath of office to uphold the Constitution, which requires the president to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Much as President Obama might like to avoid controversy arising from investigations and prosecutions of high-level Bush administration officials, he cannot let them get away with breaking the law without violating his oath. His obligation to pursue justice in these cases is all the more serious given his acknowledgment that waterboarding is torture--which is a federal crime--and the vice president's recent admission of his involvement in and approval of "enhanced" interrogation techniques.
Moreover, under the Geneva Conventions and the Convention Against Torture, our government is obliged to bring to justice those who have violated the conventions. Although Bush smugly ignored his constitutional duty to enforce treaty obligations and laws that punish detainee mistreatment, Obama cannot follow the same lawless path.
Investigations
The Iraq War, the torture and mistreatment of detainees, and the wiretapping and US Attorney scandals of the Bush administration merit new and full investigations that could be carried out singly or together and could be conducted by Congress or an outside commission.
The Iraq War has been a tragic mistake for America. More than 4,000 Americans have been killed, more than 30,000 wounded and the financial cost is expected to exceed $1 trillion. The cost to Iraqis in lives and destruction is much greater. This war was not just unnecessary; it was based on false claims. We were told we were justified in striking at Iraq because it posed the threat of weapons of mass destruction and because Saddam Hussein was in cahoots with Al Qaeda, which attacked us on 9/11. Those statements, as we now know, were blatantly untrue.
Despite several Congressional investigations, we never learned whether President Bush knew that the justifications for the war were untrue and whether he deliberately lied to drive the country into the war.
There are many indications that he did know. The Downing Street memo officially recorded a briefing given to British Prime Minister Tony Blair in July 2002 by his top intelligence official, who had just returned from meetings in Washington, eight months before the war began. According to the memo, Blair was told that the United States had already decided to remove Saddam and that the intelligence was going to be "fixed" around the policy. At the first National Security Council meeting in 2001, two years before the United States went to war, Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill was astonished to find that the decision to invade Iraq had already been made--the question, he said, was not whether but when. Finally, the Senate Intelligence Committee not long ago found that most of the claims made for the need to go to war were not borne out by information in the possession of US intelligence agencies.
A 9/11 kind of commission or committees of Congress must commence an investigation to get at the truth of the presidential deceptions related to the war. Whether President Bush knowingly deceived us needs to be fully explored and exposed; if he did, he will at the very least have to carry that burden of disgrace permanently. Precisely because other presidents lied about warmaking--think of Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and Richard Nixon and the secret bombing of Cambodia--we know that future presidents will be tempted to do the same. Investigating and exposing the role of President Bush and his team in the deceptions causing the Iraq War may discourage future presidents from taking the same path.
Similarly, investigations need to be conducted into the torture and mistreatment of detainees held by the US government. The numerous investigations ordered by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in the wake of the Abu Ghraib disclosures obfuscated the question of responsibility at the highest level. They conveniently did not probe the role of the president; vice president; Justice Department officials, including the attorney general; or other cabinet secretaries. They also did not look at the actions of the Central Intelligence Agency.
The mistreatment was recently confirmed by the Senate Armed Services Committee, which in a bipartisan report found that it was initially traceable to President Bush's removal of Geneva Convention protections from members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and was a direct result of actions taken by Rumsfeld.
Full inquiries into responsibility for torture and mistreatment, however, need to be undertaken by a commission outside Congress, since some members of the House and Senate appear to have been apprised by the administration of the torture while it was going on and may have approved it. Members of Congress might be reluctant to sit in judgment of their colleagues, and in any case there would be a serious problem of appearances if they did.
Detainee mistreatment and torture have inflamed anti-American sentiment throughout the world, creating added risks to our soldiers and to Americans everywhere. Indeed, Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo have become rallying cries and recruitment tools for Al Qaeda. Revealing and documenting the whole story of detainee mistreatment, including the role of the CIA and the president and vice president, would go a long way toward changing public opinion about America at home and abroad.
The Bush administration's wiretapping program must also be reviewed. Although Congress has watered down the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), it is important to understand the nature and scope of the intrusions into Americans' privacy under the program. As much information as possible, limited only by what is absolutely essential to protect national security, must be made public. For example, we do not yet know whether journalists, lawyers, political opponents and the like were subjected to wiretaps or other intrusions.
Investigations also need to be conducted into the president's role in the US Attorney scandal and the role of his aides Karl Rove and Harriet Miers and his Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. It appears that certain US Attorneys were removed from office solely because they failed to bring baseless prosecutions against Democrats in the 2006 election year, and that other US Attorneys were appointed to bring baseless prosecutions. The misuse of our criminal justice system for electoral ends is a grave abuse of power, and the facts behind the scandal must be uncovered.
In connection with the conviction of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby for obstruction of justice, the administration classified the notes from the FBI's interview of Vice President Cheney. Those notes need to be declassified so the country can better understand the role he and the president played in the effort to "out" a clandestine CIA employee in retaliation for her husband's public claims that President Bush was taking the country to war under false pretexts. The FBI's notes of the president's interview should be made public as well.
Prosecutions
Some of the abuses of power in which President Bush and the top members of his team engaged may well constitute crimes.
Violation of FISA is a felony, and we know, through his own admissions, that Bush failed on at least forty occasions to obtain court approval for the wiretaps, despite the clear requirement of the statute that he do so. He even authorized wiretapping when the Justice Department refused to sign off on its legality. Subsequently the president worked with the FISA court to obtain authorization for the special program--a fact that strongly suggests court authorization could have been obtained much earlier, if not from the outset. Similarly, the president was able to persuade Congress to weaken the FISA protections a number of months ago. That shows that the president could have asked Congress to change the law from the outset (as he did with other parts of FISA). Instead, Bush took it upon himself brazenly and repeatedly to violate the law, authorizing wiretap after wiretap without seeking FISA court approval or revisions in the statute. No person, including a president, should be able to disobey the law this way.
Violation of the Anti-Torture Act is also a felony. This statute bars any US citizen from committing or attempting to commit torture abroad. Those who conspire with or aid and abet the torturers are penalized. The statute carries the death penalty when death results from the torture, and thus in those cases there is no statute of limitations on prosecution.
Undoubtedly Bush will claim that there should be no prosecution because the anti-torture statute cannot limit his powers as commander in chief. He may also claim that the mistreatment of detainees that was authorized did not constitute torture. Neither of these positions is a fatal bar to prosecution. The Supreme Court has ruled that a president's powers as commander in chief do not override statutes. And waterboarding, which the administration acknowledges took place (but on only three people), has long been viewed as torture.
If the investigations show that President Bush deliberately deceived the country about the Iraq War, then a determination should be made as to whether the lies are prosecutable under federal law. If so, a criminal proceeding on these grounds should be commenced.
The investigations and prosecutions should be conducted by one or more special prosecutors, since the Justice Department would have a serious conflict in prosecuting people who may claim to have followed its guidance or who were members of the department facilitating the torture.
The decision to prosecute Bush and lower-level officials who acted at the president's behest may seem too weighty to place in the hands of one person, no matter how seasoned, fair and reputable a prosecutor he or she may be, without establishing a full context for the prosecutions. After all, almost eight years of abuses have gone by with only a few whispers from the political establishment and the mainstream media about the need for criminal prosecutions. For that reason, designated Congressional committees or an outside commission should pursue inquiries into presidential abuses, particularly those that may also constitute crimes. These inquiries, which should not interfere with any criminal prosecutions, should aim to give the public an understanding of why the Bush Administration's actions are so grave and why the defense that a president may take the law into his own hands is unacceptable.
Reforms
The most pressing reform involves the War Crimes Act of 1996, which would be a more effective tool for prosecuting detainee mistreatment than the Anti-Torture Act. The president and other top officials were concerned about prosecution under that act, which makes cruel and inhuman treatment of detainees a federal crime. Like the anti-torture statute, it carries the death penalty when death results from the mistreatment, which means there is no statute of limitations. Administration officials might think they can avoid criminal liability under the Anti-Torture Act by claiming the mistreatment isn't torture (as in President Bush's oft-repeated claim that we "don't do torture"); but they know that they can't avoid liability under the War Crimes Act, because "harsh" interrogation techniques--waterboarding, stress positions, threatening dogs, exposure to temperature extremes--are all clearly cruel and inhuman. They can't get around the War Crimes Act with definitional tricks.
Following White House counsel Alberto Gonzales's advice in January 2002 about how to "reduce the likelihood of prosecution" under the War Crimes Act, President Bush opted out of the Geneva Conventions for members of Al Qaeda. Administration officials apparently thought this would enable them to avoid liability for mistreating those prisoners, because the War Crimes Act was intended to enforce the Geneva Conventions. But then the Supreme Court ruled in summer 2006 that the Geneva Conventions applied to Al Qaeda detainees, and the administration realized that something had to be done to prevent criminal liability under the act. So it quietly inserted a provision into the Military Commissions Act in October 2006 that made the War Crimes Act retroactively inoperative--meaning that past violations could not be prosecuted.
Retroactively nullifying the War Crimes Act was one of the Bush administration's most cynical acts with respect to the rule of law. In essence, it issued a blanket pardon to anyone who had violated the War Crimes Act, including the president and vice president. There was no examination of the facts of any particular case. The violations, whether egregious or minor, were swept under the rug. No one was ever to be called to account. The crimes were made to disappear--poof. This maneuver may be the worst embodiment of the doctrine of impunity for high-level government officials in our history. It cannot be allowed to stand.
Fortunately, the retroactive nullification can be undone and the original law resurrected. Once the War Crimes Act is restored, a special prosecutor should determine whether and how to prosecute under the act. But even if no prosecutions are brought against President Bush and his team, by restoring the original law, we put an end to the horrific situation in which a criminal statute is decriminalized after crimes are committed to protect people in the highest offices.
A second reform is limiting the president's pardon power. This must be done by constitutional amendment. One of the ways a president can execute illegal schemes is to assure subordinates that they will not face criminal liability. To prevent this kind of high-level conspiracy, the amendment should prohibit a president from pardoning anyone he or she appointed to office, or the vice president. Prohibitions against self-pardoning or pardoning in return for a bribe should also be clearly spelled out in the amendment.
A third reform would re-enact legislation creating a special prosecutor for crimes committed by high-level government officials. The original law was allowed to expire after the sorry excesses of special prosecutor Kenneth Starr. A new statute, devised to prevent such excesses, would permit prosecution of officials when the Justice Department cannot or will not investigate--as happened repeatedly during the Bush era. (The appointment of Patrick Fitzgerald in the Valerie Plame leak case was fortuitous; the attorney general was incapacitated, so the power to appoint a special prosecutor fell to a nonpolitical professional prosecutor.) The problem extends beyond the Bush administration: no attorney general can be expected to investigate the president who appointed him or her.
Sooner or later, America will confront the abuses of the Bush presidency head-on. The only question is whether we will wait for years--as Chile did with respect to bringing Gen. Augusto Pinochet to justice--or do it now, sending a clear signal that our country is back on track and firmly embraces the rule of law.
- Posted in
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158 Comments so far
Show AllBolivia is seeking to take Tel Aviv to International Criminal Court over the brutal atrocities the Israeli forces have committed in Gaza.
Take George and Dick with you!
Quite simply...NOTHING will happen and NO ONE will be held accountable. If it hasn't happened in the last eight years, why would it happen NOW? Political rhetoric=LIES=SOS..............
I would not hold my breath on any prosecutions or even investigations of Bush and his administration. Obama in his talk of looking forward has as much as said so.
Ms. Holzman
May I add to your suggestion about closing down Guantanamo? At the same time, Obama needs to close ALL the US-run prisons outside our borders that hold Bush's detainees. They are still being tortured. The prison at Baghram in Afghanistan today holds 500-600 of Bush's "detainees". Obama also needs to immediately stop the black-site operations that also result in the torture of Bush's detainees, the process of "extraordinary rendition" started by Clinton.
Unless he closes all these prisons and stops all these illegal programs, his shut-down of Guantanamo is only cosmetic, and he isn't serious about getting America out of the torture-business. We cannot allow him to fail in this task.
Otherwise, most of us agree that the Bush administration MUST face the legal consequences for their violations of the Constitution, international law, and for committing war-crimes. If Obama and Congress fail in THIS, then it's only just that Americans demand the release of every occupant of American prisons. Sorry to say it, but none of their horrific crimes, not even rape, robbery, violence, and murder, are worse than what the Bush administration has done. If the Bush administration does not pay for its crimes, no American or terrorist should pay for theirs.
What websites for citizens/county committees are there? How can this intelligent but diffuse medium in CD focus to become something more than mouthing off?
As the cowardly Democrats cooperated/conspired with the Republicans to permit these Bush/Cheney crimes, nothing of any real substance will happen under Obama. They cooperated in order to get where they are now, in control of the government. It worked and that will be the end of it.
During the Vietnam War, Bertrand Russell convened in Europe a morally powerful yet legally toothless Nuremberg Trials for American war criminals. Someone will probably do something like that again. QED.
Cheesedick Cheney will busy himself with whatever he will busy himself with, furiously warding off thoughts of his age, heart condition and, most of all, death itself. The last act of his miserable and thoroughly worthless life will be the epitome of an anticlimax after being The Homicidal Wizard of Oz in this latest demonstration of American political degeneracy.
And George Wanker Bush too will find everything after January 20th at noon eastern time a total and complete bummer. No one to kill. No one to torture. No one laughing at his fractured frat boy jokes. No one to slap demeaning nick names on. He will sit in Preston Hollow, picking his toenails, masturbating at the back of the empty guest room walk-in closet, meticulously plotting the best places to hide his bottles of whiskey and stash of coke so Laura doesn't find them. He will relive the events of the last 8 years as if they were a movie written by John Milius and starring Chuck Norris as himself. One day, with a bellyful of firewater leading the way, he will sit down and begin writing his "memwars". After 6 hours, the first page will still be blank and he'll chuck the whole thing and go watch ESPN. Ooooooo-rah!
Well put, Mordechai. Except he'll probably turn on Faux News unless there's a Texas Rangers game on, of course.
This is by far the most important issue Mr. Obama faces today. Ms. Holtzman is exactly right. No president may be allowed to break the law with impunity. Mr. Obama is taking an oath to defend the Constitution. As a former law professor, he should know that it is his legal and moral obligation to see to the prosecution of anyone who has put the Constitution at risk via illegal actions.
I agree wholeheartedly with Elizabeth Holtzman's approach, particularly the necessity of Congress promptly repealing the retroactive immunity provisions inserted into the Military Commission's Act regarding officials engaged in torture, and the repealing the retroactive immunity provisions of the revised FISA statute. I like the investigative commission(s) approach.
I strongly disagree, however, with Ms. Holtzman's assertion that a special prosecutor should be utilized because supposedly "the Justice Department would have a serious problem prosecuting people who may claim to have followed its guidance or who were in the department facilitating the torture [or illegal wiretapping, or war crimes]". In my opinion, there would be a powerful institutional message sent by having Attorney General Holder's professionals use the existing grand jury system. The message would be that the era of Yoo, Addington, Gonzales, and friends was an aberration.
The only reason there weren't prosecutions before was because the torture, warrantless wiretapping, and war crime enablers were running the show from the top. Elections have consequences. The fix is no longer in at the top any more.
I say let the ordinary federal criminal justice system run its course after the investigative commissions have done their job of unearthing the sordid details. That's a better way to show genuine respect for the rule of law, and drive the message forcefully home to those who think they are beyond the reach of federal criminal law because they're too big a big shot to fail.
Bill from Saginaw
I also agree with what Ms. Holtzman is saying but you must consider the source. As Brooklyn DA, she presided over major abuses of police power, illegally obtained confessions, wrongful convictions and a general state of amorality amongst law enforcement officials. Add to this, her refusal to take responsibility for such activities, and you have the makings of an A-One hypocrite. When people speak of Bush's egregious abuses, they ought not to live in glass houses.
Everybody has some window of imperfection in their life through which the stones of accusations of hypocrisy can be hurled. What is important about this article and its author is that she states very compelling reasons for pursuing prosecution of Bush and cronies and does so from the vantage of a life-long career as both a legislator and prosecutor.
If you are looking for perfection look to Jesus--otherwise realize you will always be disappointed by humanity.
Poet
Sorry, I can't resist...Bush DID look to Jesus, and look what happened. I think Jesus himself would say, DON'T look to me, look to your fellow brothers and sisters. Once you realize they ARE your brothers and sisters, then you won't kill them.
Christ did famously state,"let he who is witrhout sin cast the first stone". My point was that Elizabeth Holtzman has been all over these issues for 35 years as is noted in her blurb at the bottom of the article. That certainly gives what she has to say credibiilty.
Poet
Sioux Rose
POET: And how! And your points here have been wisely taken. I second your motions!
My point was about your 2nd statement referencing Jesus. Your first point was well taken, and well put. But then you throw in the silly overhead about looking to Jesus and about being disappointed in humanity. Once you add that point, anything goes, and your others are moot.
.I see no linkage to the charges you level against Ms. Holtzman thus I can give them no credence. I can and do, however, recognise the various facts she notes in her article, and agree with many of the assumptions therein.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
clarkk:Having followed NYPD Police Brutality, prosecutorial lapses, cover ups (mainly by being a long time listener of Pacifica Network's WBAI 99.5FM, which has been all over the topic, including "Where We Live" www.wbai.org, "In Brief", "Building Bridges", for a couple of decades), I do not remember accusations againt Elizabeth Holzmann as Brooklyn DA. I
would appreciate some names/cases to both refresh my memory, and a possible link source, group to check it out. I have long been "paying close attention" (as Bernard White, program director and former co-host with Amy Goodman of "WakeUp Call" says, "Stay strong and pay close attention") to police brutality since the mid1990s, in NYC.
That being said, while the jury on that is out, I want to say that prior to her being Brooklyn DA, Hotzmann was on the House Judiciary Committee during Watergate and investigation of Nixon, including a list of impeachment charges, avoided by his resigning. Her creds on what is in the article are impeccable. My small criticisms include:something better than a Sept.11th type commission is required as they did a rather incomplete job. (I'll have to refresh and add more later, elsewhere.)
So sublime a point, but it looks like it was missed.
Hang Bush/Cheney! (After their convictions at their war crimes trial.)
After all, if it was good for the Germans and Japanese, it's just good for Americans.
NUREMBERG II 2009
Well said, Mr. Bronstein!
Obama is not only putting his personal dignity on the line, but that of his entire party.
If there's no severe accountability for the SUPREME WORLD CRIMES, the two-party system "itself" needs come down.
Like I have said many times. The definition of political insanity: voting the same two party's into power year after year and time after time and expecting a different result! The Republicans and the Democrats are like the Crips and the Bloods just a gang of criminals with different names!
I have no doubt that OUR justice system will sit this out, for the good of the country (of course). Here's a possible approach, I would love to see the U N or as many as nations as possible bring charges to the Hague against the Bushees and after guilt is passed and warrants filed, then we'd see if the Big O would feel obligated to surrend them or be put in contempt which would effectively confine him and the perps to our shores. That'd save a lot of money. Just a thought.
little blue speck
Without accountability applied to all equally there is no law. When anyone can commit war crimes, torture, warrant less searches, and cover their actions against the people on 9/11, because they have some government title, then the rule of law is broken.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all Men are created equal...." and held accountable equally or the rule of law becomes the right hand of the police state and we the slaves of it.
Give the first 5 snitches immunity and the information will begin to flow.
Hang all the rest by the neck.
Use piano wire instead of rope!
This article is too long, these comments are too long, it all makes me tired ... whereas Spike brightens my outlook by getting right to the heart of the matter:
"Give the first 5 snitches immunity and the information will begin to flow.
Hang all the rest by the neck."
Move this to #1 position
YOU ALL SHOULD READ THIS ARTICLE IT IS GREAT
http://www.counterpunch.org/frank01162009.html
voodoo child
Add to this list of acts of treason the looting of the federal treasury through the 'Enron economy' with the bail out of goldmansacs and wall street being the culmination. This 'personal property crime' committed by Bush's base, dwarfs that of all other classes in our democracy.
As a former new yorker I would like Ms. Holtzman to be appointed senator. We're really getting sick of the Bush- Kennedy- Clinton political dynasties. I guess thats what you get with an empire though.
From the loins of Joe Kennedy and Prescott Bush it's been a trip to hell
I agree wholeheartedly. Ms Holtzman would be an excellent choice. Caroline Kennedy is a political opportunist. The Kennedy"s and Bush's have wreaked much havoc on us. The creation of myth by these families underscores the need for people to find alternative sources for information outside of the propaganda spewed out by the mainstream media. Clinton was a corporate lackey also. Obama will prove to be another. The country has been
hijacked by the corporatocracy. We are in deep doo-doo. I hope the people wake up. I shudder to think what will become of the world we leave to future generations.
This is a very good article and I appreciate what Ms. Holtzman is saying. I would also argue that in order to "move on" it is necessary to investigate and prosecute those responsible for crimes committed. Many who are opposed to holding the Bush Administration accountable say that we must "move on" and "look forward"; I am saying that it is impossible to do either of these things in a constructive and progressive manner unless these actions are taken.
-Chris
For more independent views you can visit:
http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com
http://chriscommons.blogspot.com
I cannot move on, or forward, or anywhere, for that matter, until 9/11 has been re-investigated by an independent committee seeking the real, honest truth and answering the questions put forth by David Ray Griffin and others.
9/11 has been used to justify all our government's actions, specifically Bush et al's actions. It is the corner stone and justification for our wars and our terrorist activity throughout the world and in our own country.
Like Pearl Harbor, the Gulf of Tonkin, the Spanish American war, the invasion of Cuba and probably all of our colonial invasions of other countrys, I have a hunch that this is the grand daddy of all; so horrible, so tragically vicious and awful, that we, as a nation, as a people don't want to face the truth, but, like addicts, are willing to deny the truth in order to justify our own existence.
Like the genocide of the American Natives who inhabited this land before us, the ghastly spectre of 911 stands awaiting the light of truth and awareness.
As a nation, a people, we cannot "move forward" without acknowledging all our shadows, our darkness, our "lost souls."
Only then will we be able to "move forward". I do not think Obama is up for that level of honesty, openess or truthfulness.
I think anyone who would consider us doing that as a nation could never be elected as a national leader.
So true.
I've heard it speculated that besides 911 being mostly an inside job, that they could never have pulled it off successfully without the help of Israel. Remember the young Israelis seen cheering from a van as they watched the towers coming down. They were taken into custody and released without another word said.
Further proof that hit me yesterday was another piece someone wrote remembering how when bush was told about the twin towers being hit by 'planes', he sat there and continued to read "My Pet Goat". The other day bush was in a very important meeting and was told a high official from Israel was on the phone. When the official was told bush could not be interrupted, the official insisted bush would take his call. Despite the importance of the meeting, bush bolted to the phone when told of the call.
The Israeli government has a knife to the US government's throat. "You will continue to do whatever we want whenever we want or else we reveal the truth about 9/11." Perhaps the Israeli government is getting it's 'payback' now in their illegal and vicious attack on Gaza for their assistance in helping bush and cheney gain approval to attack the middle east.
.A pity that some post unsubstantiated and even unprovable stuff as this. I wonder what motivates them?
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
If you had read as much about the subject on both side of the equation you would understand why people post this stuff. I tend to think it was an inside job because of the way the cleanup was handled. It was like something was being hidden.
Rickster
Sioux Rose
RICKSTER: Mechanics are NOT my area of expertise by a long shot, but I do know that MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY scream out! And when we "roll" the video backwards, the way the dots connect makes coincidence looks like it was on steroids.
I do have a degree in Mechanical Engineering but I'm not an expert in structural design. I was require to take courses in structural design because it is considered a mechanical system. I don't believe for a minute fire (a kerosene fire) brought them building straight down. Watching it the morning it happened I did expect to see the top sections fall over sideways.
Rickster
Rickster, as I said above, I live with an expert who, is a mechanical engineer, construction, owner, builder, etc. etc. etc. expert.
When I asked him if a plausible explanation to the enigma of how the buildings fell as if they had been sabotaged to do so, is that they were built in a way that sabotaged them just so only under such a catastrophe, which would not be a consideration of much consequence when they were built, would the results we witnessed occur? He did not hesitate when he said "yes".
Short cuts that compromise a engineers design are commonly taken, especially if the builder perceives that the risk of discovery is minimal, and yet often even if they do not.
Sioux Rose
ARDEE: This is your doppledanger speaking (LOL), and I must advise, we have hit a bi-polar bump in our covert relationship... for I assure you, this side of your brain indeed feels 911, as per "the official account" is about as firm as Swiss cheese. Please, open your mind... or the cognitive dissonance will make matters tough for both of us/both sides of our shared cerebral frontier!
.My response was not directed at the theory but at the post that contained charges with no attempt at substantiation. Anyone can post anything, but those who are sincere , or at least not lazy, attempt to post with accuracy and links to what they charge. This post was none of the above.
I have noted elsewhere a link to the architectural proofs showing why the buildings in question pancaked as they did, and aviation fuel is hardly kerosene.....The "cleanup" of a site wherein three thousand bodies where contained, mostly as ash and bone fragments, was done carefully and with respect, this does not equate to secrecy.
One is free to believe what one will, others are free to require some shred of evidence to support contentions prior to embracing them. I wonder if you have pondered at the numerous events in history that have been exposed and why that happens. An undertaking as vast as this one in question would have required scores if not hundreds of participants, and thus would have been doomed to exposure.
I think that there are many issues and events requiring our attention if not our passion, this, in my opinion, is more of a distraction than any thing else. Everyone is certainly free to speculate but those concerned with accuracy and even integrity owe much more than wild imaginings however they might fit with political theories.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"and aviation fuel is hardly kerosene"
"Commercial jet fuel, known as Jet-A, is pure kerosene" from centennial of flight http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/fuel/Tech21.htm
There are other versions of aviation fuels but they mainly just have an antifreeze added to them or there to dangerous to handle except for special applications. There is a lot more information out there if you care to look it up.
Remember this about fuels and gun powder the cooler and slower something burns the more power that you can deprive from it. Diesel versus regular gasoline is a good example.
Rickster
.Yup, you iz right about this one, sorry.....have you looked up the design flaws of those towers yet?
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Yea I've read about the supposed design flaws in the twin towers. several have been studied and dismissed based on what I've read. Can you be more specific. Has there been more information made available that I couldn't find. I did a quick google search expecting to find more updated information and it seems design flaws have been ruled out.
Rickster
.I posted a link to tan architectural trade journal explaining in depth those flaws that caused the "pancaking effect, now I cannot seem to find it ( in a short search) lets let these make do:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070912/ai_n19516990
Professor: Design flaws caused World Trade Center collapse
Oakland Tribune, Sep 12, 2007 by Matt Krupnick
BERKELEY -- The civil-engineering industry's failure to admit that cost-saving design features led to the World Trade Center collapse amounts to "moral corruption," a University of California, Berkeley, engineering professor said Tuesday.
Speaking on campus to memorialize the sixth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Abolhassan Astaneh said his five-year study of the collapse of the Twin Towers revealed that a better design likely would have prevented many of the nearly 3,000 deaths that day.
Astaneh sharply criticized the American Society of Civil Engineers, which he said cared more about defending the industry than revealing the truth about the towers' design.
R
"It's just moral corruption," Astaneh saidin response to a question from the audience. "I don't beat around the bushes."
Astaneh, who first researched the disaster in the days following Sept. 11, said he had access to well-guarded architectural drawings of the 110-story towers for his study. The schematics showed that the buildings were supported almost completely by thin steel beams around the outside.
Thicker beams on the exterior and more concrete surrounding the stairwells would have added at least $30 million to the cost of the buildings, he said, but could have saved hundreds or thousands of lives after airliners hit both towers. Instead, the resulting 1,000- degree fire easily destroyed the structure, he said.
Most tall skyscrapers, including Chicago's Sears Tower, are sturdier and likely would survive such attacks, Astaneh said.
Because of the industry's defensiveness, "the public is left with the notion that these buildings were like any other buildings," he said.
"These buildings had no other option but to pulverize."
For even more such:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=DwC&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=architectural+discussion+about+World+Trade+Tower+design+flaws&spell=1
.more such:
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center
The tube-frame design, earlier introduced by Fazlur Khan, was a new approach which allowed open floor plans rather than columns distributed throughout the interior to support building loads as had traditionally been done. The World Trade Center towers utilized high-strength, load-bearing perimeter steel columns called Vierendeel trusses that were spaced closely together to form a strong, rigid wall structure, supporting virtually all lateral loads such as wind loads, and sharing the gravity load with the core columns. The perimeter structure containing 59 columns per side was constructed with extensive use of prefabricated modular pieces each consisting of three columns, three stories tall, connected by spandrel plates.[26] The spandrel plates were welded to the columns to create the modular pieces off-site at the fabrication shop.[27] Adjacent modules were bolted together with the splices occurring at mid-span of the columns and spandrels. The spandrel plates were located at each floor, transmitting shear stress between columns, allowing them to work together in resisting lateral loads. The joints between modules were staggered vertically so the column splices between adjacent modules were not at the same floor.[26]
http://architecture.about.com/od/disastersandcollapses/a/twintowerfall.htm
Why the World Trade Center Towers Fell on September 11
Engineers tell why the World Trade Center twin towers collapsed
By Jackie Craven, About.com
In the years since September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in New York City, engineers and other experts have been studying the collapse of the World Trade Center towers. By examining the collapse step-by-step, experts are learning how buildings fail, and discovering ways we can build stronger structures.
What Caused the Twin Towers to Fall?
1. Impact from the Terrorist Planes
When Boeing jets piloted by terrorists struck the Twin Towers, some 10,000 gallons (38 kiloliters) of jet fuel fed an enormous fireball. But, the impact of the planes and the burst of flames did not make the Towers collapse right away. Like most buildings, the Twin Towers had redundant design. The term redundant design means that when one system fails, another carries the load. Each of the Twin Towers had 244 columns around a central core that housed the elevators, stairwells, mechanical systems, and utilities. When some columns were damaged, others could still support the building.
2. Heat from the Fires
The sprinkler system was damaged by the impact of the planes. But even if the sprinklers had been working, they could not have maintained enough pressure to stop the fire. Fed by the remaining jet fuel, the heat became intense.
Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F. This is not hot enough to melt structural steel. However, engineers say that for the World Trade Center towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength. Steel will lose about half its strength at 1,200 degrees F. The steel will also become distorted when heat is not a uniform temperature.
3. Collapsing Floors
Most fires start in one area and then spread. The fire from the terrorist planes covered the area of an entire floor almost instantly. As the weakened floors began to collapse, they pancaked. This means that floors crashed down on floors with increasing weight and momentum, crushing each successive floor below. With the weight of the plunging floors building force, the exterior walls buckled.
Why did the collapsed towers look so flat?
Before the terrorist attack, the twin towers were 110 stories tall. Constructed of lightweight steel around a central core, the World Trade Center towers were about 95% air. After they collapsed, the hollow core was gone. The remaining rubble was only a few stories high.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2001/december5/wtc-125.html
Structural engineer describes collapse of the World Trade Center towers
BY MARK SHWARTZ
Vulnerabilities in the design of New York's World Trade Center (WTC) are likely to have contributed to the collapse of its two main towers and adjacent buildings, according to Ronald O. Hamburger, a structural engineer currently investigating the Sept. 11 disaster.
"These buildings were incredibly strong, especially with respect to resisting dead loads and wind loads, but they also had a number of vulnerabilities," Hamburger told a packed auditorium on Nov. 29 when he delivered the second John A. Blume Distinguished Lecture -- an annual event sponsored by Stanford's Blume Earthquake Engineering Center.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070912/ai_n19516990
Professor: Design flaws caused World Trade Center collapse
Oakland Tribune, Sep 12, 2007 by Matt Krupnick
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
That's not the first time I've read that that design was called a design flaw. It wasn't flawed it was just a different design. It has also been pointed out for the building to pancake the way it did those plates would have had to damaged most all the way around. The upper part of the building if it was going to come down should have still buckled toward the impact side.
Last I knew the plans were all but open records. I believe all you had to do is go to city hall to get access to them.
Rickster
.If those buildings were not constructed on Port Authority land, which gave access to waivers in designs they would not have been built that way at all..Serious violations of NYC building codes in fact. But they were darn spacious inside. I had eaten several times at Windows on the World, quite lovely really.
There is no debate possible when it comes to such theorising about a vast conspiracy, illogic does not make for rational debate because everything not in support of such a theory is chalked up to being a part of the conspiracy itself. I respect your right to believe as you will, please honor my own logic as it pertains to my own opinions.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
gulp...
ahh...Period Ardee I actually completely agree. This is a noteable day when I agree with you. Glad to see you are not posting nutty conspiracy theories commonly seen on CD.
It's a waste of time to try to go point by point with these people.
It might be that those feeling that there is something collectively going on that is not right, and thus search for those secret evil plots, may not realize that this collective wrong is so obvious that they are missing it entirely and fabricating something because of that fact.
Leea:Many in NYC do not feel the Sept.11 Commission did a thorough job. I am only on CD about a year. The making it a "Jewish" thing is one more sidetrack to what may have happened. (I am a Jew and I know there were a lot of Jews who died in the WTC.) I refuse to go into the fray, beyond saying that I am one of the majority of NYC,as shown in polled data, who want a better investigation. See the link on my favorite radio station, nonprofit WBAI, Pacifica Network's NYC station www.wbai.org I only talk about Sept.11, 2001 on the anniversary, if at all....When that plane went down onto the Hudson River,a few days ago (Thurs.) we New Yorkers didn't think "oh,no" and danger to us, such as re Sept. 11, but instinctively looked up to see and wonder, "Is the sky blue?". Every time a plane crashes, we look at the sky. I remember when the baseball pitcher flew his plane into/hit an apartment building a couple of years ago....To end on a high note:I love NYC and the people in it. Our diversity is our strength. We manage, pretty much, to live in harmony. I love hearing all the languages, the different faces. I am unable to travel and I speak with people who appear to be from other places, in clothing from other places or cab drivers with accents and learn a lot. I hope people will pay attention to all of Liz Holzmann's article on this "thread".
.I would much, much rather speak to these people than to a jackass like you.....
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin