The Banality of Bush White House Evil
We don't like our evil to be banal. Ten years after Columbine, it only now may be sinking in that the psychopathic killers were not jock-hating dorks from a "Trench Coat Mafia," or, as ABC News maintained at the time, "part of a dark, underground national phenomenon known as the Gothic movement." In the new best seller "Columbine," the journalist Dave Cullen reaffirms that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were instead ordinary American teenagers who worked at the local pizza joint, loved their parents and were popular among their classmates.
On Tuesday, it will be five years since Americans first confronted the photographs from Abu Ghraib on "60 Minutes II." Here, too, we want to cling to myths that quarantine the evil. If our country committed torture, surely it did so to prevent Armageddon, in a patriotic ticking-time-bomb scenario out of "24." If anyone deserves blame, it was only those identified by President Bush as "a few American troops who dishonored our country and disregarded our values": promiscuous, sinister-looking lowlifes like Lynddie England, Charles Graner and the other grunts who were held accountable while the top command got a pass.
We've learned much, much more about America and torture in the past five years. But as Mark Danner recently wrote in The New York Review of Books, for all the revelations, one essential fact remains unchanged: "By no later than the summer of 2004, the American people had before them the basic narrative of how the elected and appointed officials of their government decided to torture prisoners and how they went about it." When the Obama administration said it declassified four new torture memos 10 days ago in part because their contents were already largely public, it was right.
Yet we still shrink from the hardest truths and the bigger picture: that torture was a premeditated policy approved at our government's highest levels; that it was carried out in scenarios that had no resemblance to "24"; that psychologists and physicians were enlisted as collaborators in inflicting pain; and that, in the assessment of reliable sources like the F.B.I. director Robert Mueller, it did not help disrupt any terrorist attacks.
The newly released Justice Department memos, like those before them, were not written by barely schooled misfits like England and Graner. John Yoo, Steven Bradbury and Jay Bybee graduated from the likes of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Michigan and Brigham Young. They have passed through white-shoe law firms like Covington & Burling, and Sidley Austin.
Judge Bybee's résumé tells us that he has four children and is both a Cubmaster for the Boy Scouts and a youth baseball and basketball coach. He currently occupies a tenured seat on the United States Court of Appeals. As an assistant attorney general, he was the author of the Aug. 1, 2002, memo endorsing in lengthy, prurient detail interrogation "techniques" like "facial slap (insult slap)" and "insects placed in a confinement box."
He proposed using 10 such techniques "in some sort of escalating fashion, culminating with the waterboard, though not necessarily ending with this technique." Waterboarding, the near-drowning favored by Pol Pot and the Spanish Inquisition, was prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II. But Bybee concluded that it "does not, in our view, inflict ‘severe pain or suffering.' "
Still, it's not Bybee's perverted lawyering and pornographic amorality that make his memo worthy of special attention. It merits a closer look because it actually does add something new - and, even after all we've heard, something shocking - to the five-year-old torture narrative. When placed in full context, it's the kind of smoking gun that might free us from the myths and denial that prevent us from reckoning with this ugly chapter in our history.
Bybee's memo was aimed at one particular detainee, Abu Zubaydah, who had been captured some four months earlier, in late March 2002. Zubaydah is portrayed in the memo (as he was publicly by Bush after his capture) as one of the top men in Al Qaeda. But by August this had been proven false. As Ron Suskind reported in his book "The One Percent Doctrine," Zubaydah was identified soon after his capture as a logistics guy, who, in the words of the F.B.I.'s top-ranking Qaeda analyst at the time, Dan Coleman, served as the terrorist group's flight booker and "greeter," like "Joe Louis in the lobby of Caesar's Palace." Zubaydah "knew very little about real operations, or strategy." He showed clinical symptoms of schizophrenia.
By the time Bybee wrote his memo, Zubaydah had been questioned by the F.B.I. and C.I.A. for months and had given what limited information he had. His most valuable contribution was to finger Khalid Shaikh Mohammed as the 9/11 mastermind. But, as Jane Mayer wrote in her book "The Dark Side," even that contribution may have been old news: according to the 9/11 commission, the C.I.A. had already learned about Mohammed during the summer of 2001. In any event, as one of Zubaydah's own F.B.I. questioners, Ali Soufan, wrote in a Times Op-Ed article last Thursday, traditional interrogation methods had worked. Yet Bybee's memo purported that an "increased pressure phase" was required to force Zubaydah to talk.
As soon as Bybee gave the green light, torture followed: Zubaydah was waterboarded at least 83 times in August 2002, according to another of the newly released memos. Unsurprisingly, it appears that no significant intelligence was gained by torturing this mentally ill Qaeda functionary. So why the overkill? Bybee's memo invoked a ticking time bomb: "There is currently a level of ‘chatter' equal to that which preceded the September 11 attacks."
We don't know if there was such unusual "chatter" then, but it's unlikely Zubaydah could have added information if there were. Perhaps some new facts may yet emerge if Dick Cheney succeeds in his unexpected and welcome crusade to declassify documents that he says will exonerate administration interrogation policies. Meanwhile, we do have evidence for an alternative explanation of what motivated Bybee to write his memo that August, thanks to the comprehensive Senate Armed Services Committee report on detainees released last week.
The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: "A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful." As higher-ups got more "frustrated" at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, "there was more and more pressure to resort to measures" that might produce that intelligence.
In other words, the ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration's ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee's memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) "Downing Street memo," in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." A month after Bybee's memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on "Meet the Press," hyping both Saddam's W.M.D.s and the "number of contacts over the years" between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.
But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus "intelligence" from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.
Last week Bush-Cheney defenders, true to form, dismissed the Senate Armed Services Committee report as "partisan." But as the committee chairman, Carl Levin, told me, the report received unanimous support from its members - John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman included.
Levin also emphasized the report's accounts of military lawyers who dissented from White House doctrine - only to be disregarded. The Bush administration was "driven," Levin said. By what? "They'd say it was to get more information. But they were desperate to find a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq."
Five years after the Abu Ghraib revelations, we must acknowledge that our government methodically authorized torture and lied about it. But we also must contemplate the possibility that it did so not just out of a sincere, if criminally misguided, desire to "protect" us but also to promote an unnecessary and catastrophic war. Instead of saving us from "another 9/11," torture was a tool in the campaign to falsify and exploit 9/11 so that fearful Americans would be bamboozled into a mission that had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The lying about Iraq remains the original sin from which flows much of the Bush White House's illegality.
Levin suggests - and I agree - that as additional fact-finding plays out, it's time for the Justice Department to enlist a panel of two or three apolitical outsiders, perhaps retired federal judges, "to review the mass of material" we already have. The fundamental truth is there, as it long has been. The panel can recommend a legal path that will insure accountability for this wholesale betrayal of American values.
President Obama can talk all he wants about not looking back, but this grotesque past is bigger than even he is. It won't vanish into a memory hole any more than Andersonville, World War II internment camps or My Lai. The White House, Congress and politicians of both parties should get out of the way. We don't need another commission. We don't need any Capitol Hill witch hunts. What we must have are fair trials that at long last uphold and reclaim our nation's commitment to the rule of law.
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229 Comments so far
Show AllSioux Rose
Holistic health practitioners recognize the importance of diet. In popular parlance, "you are what you eat." The I Ching (hexagram 27/nourishment) explains that what we are is also the product of our "food for thought." A nation's psyche can be contaminated by beliefs and that IS the case in America. There are especially strong parallels, strands woven into the fabric of America's current consciousness that PROMOTE the banality of evil. Foremost, when religion champions war and creates a "faith basis" for rendering other "enemy," and when, as Eisenhower warned, the military like a gigantic vulture gets to fiscally feed off the carcass of what's left of the nation's financial estate, added to pornography, yes porn, that # 1 "product" selling so enthusiastically across the web. By sexualizing violence (remember the word in U.K that a certain dossier was "sexed up" to help massage the case for war in Iraq?) and perverting HEALTHY sexuality, psyches are in many ways destroyed.
Every healthy human being seeks love and a sense of belonging. Our spiritual natures long for the state of communion with Creator, or the great Beingness that is eternal.
The Biblical statement, "Let no man tear asunder what God hath joined together" carries a metaphysical analogy. I've spoken of Mars, god of war, as having a disproportionate influence over Western culture. This emphasis is strongest in America, the land that uses its blessed treasure for the destruction of other lands and their people. It's been statistically proven that the vast majority of casualties are innocent civilians. (And to the extent the cases for war are fixed, as Smedley Butler related, mostly to provide muscle to corporations in search of the assets of other lands, all then become innocent civilians since the very notion of enemy is a drummed up fiction to serve certain corporate interests.) The supreme weapon is the great bomb, and since its deployment over Nagasaki & Hiroshima, I believe a metaphorical unraveling of the fabric of creation, in terms of a breakdown in LOVING relationships between men and women, has escalated. The type of porn being proliferated completely degrades and denigrates women, and this would not be a big deal were it not the MAIN thing selling across the internet, POLLUTING the image of lovemaking, creating in many minds a belief that this is how women should be treated.
Without love, without a SACRED sense of the joining together of the male and female, the entire fabric of Creation unravels. That is why we see a LUST for exploding weapons, a nonchalance for the new unmanned drones/weapons of death delivery. This emphasis on Mars, which is the HEAD leaves the heart entirely out of the equation; and that helps explain why "professionals" with backgrounds in psychology (in theory, any with a medical background should be devoted to HEALING and HELPING others) can use their knowledge of the human psyche to engender acts that break it down.
The state of the earth, climate change, desecration of key ecosystems, pollution of the waters, species loss, reflect the moral bankruptcy of our times. Inasmuch a nature is seen as "the great mother," or Gaia, a feminine archetype of quintessential nurture (and nourishment), there is a grotesque but unmistakable parallel in seeing how MANY women are treated around the world. Sex slaves, mass rapes in Africa, high domestic abuse rates in the US, and this infusion of a mental diet of depravity into the collective psyches of millions of males who "consume" porn. A great debt to the Feminine is in evidence; and until men can face this monster, they will be effectively seduced by the mantras of Mars and lend their essences to the destruction of this planet, and all things that might otherwise be experienced as sacred, upon it.
well said.
Sioux Rose...
I agree about how pornography is eroding the values and relationships of those addicted to it, and " soft porn" unconsciously influences each of us as well... And I commend you for adressing this taboo issue on this forum...
I haven't read the book about porn, so perhaps the author adresses some of these next issues...
I am also aware that teenage girls and young women are the fastest growing demographic for porn addicts, as it becomes more acceptable in our society...
I believe that there is a difference between erotica which celebrates sexuality... And porn, which denigrates the men and women and children involved, whether they are the porn stars or the viewers...
Like many boys growing up in the 80's, everyone had a friend or brother or uncle or Step- dad with a stack of old playboy mags that they would peruse when their ladies weren't around... It was a veritable pubescent rite of passage...
In this hypocritical and puritanical society, where "sex ed" is a joke, many folks got their first look at genitalia through gentlemen's mags...
Unfortunately in the digital age, porn is free and abundant in all of it's grotesque forms... And it is not just for hormone laden teenage boys or perverted uncles anymore... Now with an infinite stream of videos and images at anyones fingertips, the modern day porn addict can waste their days perusing their fantasies, no matter how sick & twisted they are, someone has done it and someone else recorded it...
It is the new "drug", which leave's the "users" depleted of time, money, and "creative juices" to interact with other humans in ways to form meaningful relationships... It is the ultimate escape for the addict, and the perfect distraction for the masses perpetuated by the ruling elite...
It is a myth that all porn actors and prostitutes chose that lifestyle, like the sex-addict "porn star"... What is sad is that many if not most of the women and children in the porn industry are not there by choice, but are actually sex slaves addicted to coke and or heroin, with organized crime handlers/pimps managing their "careers" and keep the $$$$ for themselves... Many of the women & children come from war-torn or bankrupted countries like Serbia or Russia, who are promised a good job or new life in America or Europe, then are held as prisoners to work the "trades"...
Think about that... All those folks jerking off to Internet porn are probably witnessing the managed rape of some poor girl who is out of her mind (and probably out of her body) on drugs, after she was sold into sexual slavery...
this knowledge would just titillate some even more.
"Masturbation is having sex with someone I love very much." - Woody Allen
"I have a very active sex life; I just don't have a partner." - Joan Rivers
Is that all you got from my post? That some folks would get off on knowing that too? I don't give a shit about sadistic evil fucks like that...
Why even mention it?
My point is that pubescent kids and frat boys and adults who think porn is fine & dandy in the privacy of their own room or a victimless crime are actually contributing to the financing of not just the porn industry, but also organized crime through sex slavery and drugs...
While simultaneously desensitizing themselves to sex crimes and alienating themselves from healthy relationships...
Very true, Rose, and further is the reason for the seduction and subsequent 'witch hunt' mentality (and paranoia), where every man above a certain age is looked at with the suspicion of being a possible 'child predator' (i.e., your 'perverted' uncle). These things are all interrelated. Younger girls gaining carnal knowledge sooner along with unrestricted internet access has opened up Pandora's Box (no pun intended). Both the older male (as well as the younger male in a somewhat different arena) and the younger girl are being drawn into this vortex of obsession, and feeding the darker side of humanity, of which the sex trade is a part. Adding to the problem is that parents are (in my view) much too permissive with their children, either because they are too busy trying to meet everyday demands, or afraid to set limits (who wants to labeled a party pooper when all the other kids are allowed to do it?). The sex trade of impoverished children is about as hideous and grotesque as it gets. That being said, sexual morality cannot be legislated. And to complicate things even more, the age of consent varies from place to place, and period of history.
"Think about that... All those folks jerking off to Internet porn are probably witnessing the managed rape of some poor girl who is out of her mind (and probably out of her body) on drugs, after she was sold into sexual slavery..."
Yes, and those girls/women willingly participating in the business for financial gain (which we can expect to increase exponentially due to the shriveling economy). They are contributing to same darkness as well.
"Yes, and those girls/women willingly participating in the business for financial gain (which we can expect to increase exponentially due to the shriveling economy)." Chessgames56
Chessgames: How can you say they are "willingly participating" in prostitution, etc., when your next clause points to dire financial need as the motivator? That's just plain illogical. In fact, very few (if any) prostitutes work for fun; they work to feed themselves and often their children. One look at any streetwalker would show you the blank, tired, total lack of interest in the job other than stark financial necessity.
I used to walk through such a part of town to get to my university and I was struck by the way they would stand, arms folded over their chests, eyes lacking any interest whatsoever. When a curb-crawler pulled over they'd walk out with the same blank expression, exchange a couple of words in monotone, and get into the car.
Willingly participating? Well, I guess they chose it over their children starving . . .
Rainborowe
Perhaps there are those who feel they have no choice, but is this always the case? How about the stripper who loves manipulating men for money, on and off the stage? Women aren't always the innocent victim in this. That's all I was saying.
Are men really that pathetic? I really doubt that manipulating men is the prime or even secondary motive for either stripping or hooking, although it may be a tertiary one, given the likelihood of the women having been abused by men anyway.
But I thought we were talking about prostitution, not stripping. That's a game of a different order, if you'll forgive the pun.
Rainborowe
Wow, women are all innocent angels, while only men are the villains. YOU were talking only about prostitution, it seems, but there are different orders of 'prostitution,' no? Not all prostitutes are 'street walkers.' Some women use sex to make money because it is profitable, not because they have no other option. Now if you are a woman and have animosity toward men that is a different matter, but it does not belong in this discussion.
I bow to your superior knowledge of prostitutes.
Rainborowe
Sioux Rose
CHESSGAME: One of my thoughts was if any of the "directors" screen the men, in one case a young 22 year old had sex with SIXTY FIVE in one session! for Aids since it is anything but "safe" sex. Many of these young people are on drugs, most have been sexually abused, and I would wager they suffer from a covert form of Stockholm Syndrome. Moreso than whatever salary the females receive, what bothers me is that unstable men or insecure men see these images and get the idea that this is what "real" women want. That is one of the points made by Jensen in his research. Since rape is already common in the US and domestic abuse as well, these images only add to the degradation of real women.
I saw a documentary on "The Green River Killer," as this guy was actually married, but would kill women for sport and have sex with their corpses. He used porn. Obviously some stable men who find porn of interest (hopefully not the reall sick stuff Jensen wrote about) do not go out and rape; unfortunately those who are unstable and violent find in this medium motivation TO rape and kill. OURS is not a healthy society...
Right. And there are also religious believers who kill women for sport, and have sex with their corpses. Blame religion.
But wait. There are no doubt atheists who are the same.
Meat eaters. Clearly eating meat encourages a violent mindset.
But wait. There are vegetarians who engage in violent depraved acts too.
OURS is not a healthy society...
Indeed, it is an exceedingly unbalanced and therefore unhealthy--even insane-- society in so many ways.
"Younger girls gaining carnal knowledge sooner along with unrestricted internet access has opened up Pandora's Box (no pun intended)."
It is interesting that you single out girls here. Why only girls? Why is it that younger girls gaining carnal knowledge is a problem? Do girls not have the right to their bodies that boys do?
There is no such 'problem' outside of relationship. Of course men play a role in this, especially since they have access to these underage girls who are more sexually aware than were their counterparts years ago. Don't forget there is pornographic chat as well as images, and they both serve the same urges. There will always be erotic experimentation between both sexes, and perhaps all ages. It is interesting to note that the number of first time male sexual offenders is on the rise. Seemingly, some of these men are being drawn into this, the same way they have always been drawn to image-pornography. Possibly, it is more powerful due to the fact it is interactive and real-time. Add this to the fact that girls are sexually knowledgeable at a much younger age and you get the explosive situation we have now. And as a parent, I face challenges my parents could never have dreamed of. That is why my children do not have, nor will they ever have unfettered access to the internet.
Sioux Rose
duplicate post.
Sioux Rose
CHESSGAME: We are not talking normal sexual relations, but pushing the envelope to NORMALIZE exceedingly violent and debasing acts. Porn really creates darkness around sexuality, rather than beauty or an engagement between two persons recognizing the humanity in one another. Again, one would have to read Jensen's book to take in the magnitude of what's at stake here, and what's being undone in the way of a healthy basis for men and women to relate intimately.
RFLOH: Your limited logic limits your understanding, and I find your absence of empathy appalling. You might have a high conventional IQ, but to the extent the "emotional IQ" can be measured, you'd fail the test.
Unlike you, I refuse to submit to simplistic manichean definitions of male / female, masculine / feminine, good / evil that you so eagerly promote.
My absence of empathy? Hint, look in the mirror. Unlike you, I do not going around trying to impose my ideas of what is "normal" on consenting adults.
As a society we've become desensitized in so many ways that we can no longer distinguish between the vulgar and the cruel. In the US, many love war and violence, or believe it is the way to resolve issues. You know, we've got to FIGHT this or BATTLE that. Our very approach to resolution is violent. The New Age movement tells us there is no such thing as 'evil,' except that 'thinking makes it so,' but deep down in our hearts (if we are at all sensitive) we know different. People are so out of touch with their inner beings, they no longer believe there is a 'core' to discover and understand. Not only do we not know, we do not know that we do not know, and thus think we know. That's a big reason that things do not fundamentally change.
Sioux Rose
CHESSGAME: You are more patient than I am. Thank you for making an excellent case to the one so blind s/he cannot see. I am growing weary of duty at "this battle station."
Is that anything like Rumsfeld's knowing there were unknown unknowns affecting all of his decision making?
Sioux Rose
RFLOH: Although I find you morally & spiritually REPUGNANT, I have responded below!
Sioux Rose
GOLDEN: Thank you for contributing your insights to this discussion. What really upset me about Jensen's book is that there is an upping of the ante where NORMAL sex is not what people buy. The women are made to act like they LIKE being treated worse than 3rd world animals; and very UNSAVORY practices are involved.
Someone mentioned addition to porn, perhaps; but just as the decency laws were relaxed so that media could show sex scenes in the l970's, the complete lack of ANY form of decency standards pushes the bar and many people tend to copy what they see. It's really tragic, and I had no idea of the content or how pervasive this dark form of ugly titillation has become. Truly ghastly.
And who gets to define what is porn and what is erotica? You?
Well, since the US supreme court cannot even define porn, or differentiate it from erotica...
we are all free to make up our own working definitions for porn...
I shared my definition because it works for me...
I make no presumption that it is the "end all/be all" definition for everyone else...
Like all words, you are free to make up any definition you want...
As long as you don't try to impose your definition on everyone else.
Sioux rose...So well said. I might add a further sad note that our Christian based holier than thou nation, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INC., is at at the lead in this denigration of the feminine mystique....
Sioux Rose
ANGRY: Thank you for your "affirmative vote." To the degree a society exalts the "virtues" of Mars/militarism is the degree to which it denigrates life and the life-giving feminine. I call that the Venus deficit factor.
Years ago when I read about: dowry murders in India (wives who had served their purpose tossed into the cooking fire), "honor" crimes in the Muslim world, clitorectomy (major practice!) in West Africa, domestic abuse rates in the U.S. (the # 1 reason women go to the hospital emergency room), gang rape in Africa, added to the sex slave trade... I had to write a script to encompass the pain in knowing all of these things. And now reading about the way porn is exploding due to the Internet and home video, and the CONTENT of it (I have no issue with sex on the big screen if both parties care for each other and show respect for the body as the temple it IS!) is SO damaging and degrading to women! The composite of these sins against women, added to the numbers of the dead and wounded left from the U.S. playing like teenage boys with weapons that are inordinately efficient in delivering the gruesome effect cleansed in language into the neat category of seemingly easily dimissed "collateral damage" are a testament to the disregard America expresses for LIFE. America is the banality of evil in its policies, and yet the depravity seen in the way women in these other cultures are treated goes to the great wound, the rupture between the genders, the chasm set between the intended Lovers of Eden. Religion of the patriarchal sort did this DELIBERATELY to disempower people. By setting up a premise of sin, the capacity for that level of true union that can lift both parties and lead to higher states of awareness and soul empowerment was disabled. WE are all witnessing the effects.
It is very rare for women to find men who truly love them and treat them as equals in every sense. The objectification of the female is once again being pushed by Hollywood, and to me that's soft porn. There can be no true and genuine respect for life as a HOLY equation, one worth preserving, until men understand (as a few of you in the forum thankfully do) that healing must begin at the primary level of union. Yesterday's article by the young soldier who had a spiritual epiphany about the meaning of his masculinity moved me to tears. It gave me hope. I see some men are waking up and abandoning the brotherhoods based on sworn allegiance to arms or the promise of violence... some are realizing there is more to manhood that Mars rules. My granddaughter's generation will potentially know the kind of union impossible at this time between the genders.
It's all about balance, Rose: the feminine and masculine. We have a very strange state of affairs now: the feminine is seeking to become more masculine, and visa versa. Balance is being sought devoid of understanding, which is creating further imbalances. Everything works within a triad of 'forces,' active, passive, and modifying. Psychologically and psychically, balance and harmony is always sought. This is an immutable Law. Mankind has a choice, and probably does not have much longer to make it: either understand and harmonize with our inner and outer nature (really, a singular movement) or be destroyed (in this case, meaning destroy ourselves). We stand at an unparalleled precipice in the history of our race.
Chessgames: "We have a very strange state of affairs now: the feminine is seeking to become more masculine, and visa versa."
This is a very strange assertion. I have absolutely no notion that I am "seeking to become" the opposite sex. I am what I am and it's pretty well what I have always been, but for the decline in sex hormones brought about by age.
The truth is that we all have attributes which have traditionally been assigned to one sex or the other, some more "masculine" and some more "feminine." But even those assignments are arbitrary and at least partially a function of our culture. Don't forget that, among other societies, sex traits were assigned differently (in certain American-Indian tribes, for instance, women were the decision makers--and the tormentors of prisoners.)
Rainborowe
I was talking more about social trends, not particular individuals. Society pushes us into certain roles, whether we are cognizant or not. Some involve the emasculation of men, and the opposite for women (as in the workplace). There seems to be so much confusion regarding the subject, and the psychological imbalance leading to discord and exploitation as a result. And this exploitation is a two-way street, even though it may seem that men have the upper hand at present. Human nature includes both male and female, and both are capable of expressing it's negative attributes.
There is a great reference discussing these societal issues of balance, in a previous thread on CD titled:
Denormalizing the Signs of Impending Disaster
See
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/18-8
Namaste
Thanks PT :)
"honor" crimes in the Muslim world, clitorectomy (major practice!) in West Africa,"
I don't know what you mean about "dowry murders in India (wives who had served their purpose tossed into the cooking fire)."
Dowry murders are the murder of brides whose family has failed to pay the dowry agreed upon. I don't understand how this translates to "wives who had served their purpose."
"Honor crimes" are not an Islamic practice, for the most part, but one born out of cultures in which the honor of the tribe, clan and family is paramount and vested especially in the chastity of its women. Many Islamic societies do not practice it. Even in those societies where it does crop up, it is in the sections of society that are poor and hopeless. For example, one is much more likely to come across it in a long-term refugee camp than in the comfortably-off classes--where it is unknown. When people have nothing else, even hope, all they have left is abstract stuff like "honor."
Clitoridectomy is practiced in many parts of Africa, including East Africa, Egypt and the Sudan--in the latter most likely because of the trade with sub-Saharan Africa carried on by the Ancient Egyptians, including the importations of Nubian slaves. You could say that in the latter case, you get what you pay for . . .
Rainborowe
Sioux Rose
RAINBOROWE: I find your tone here unbelievably cold and clinical. Every allegation I made is true. You make these acts seem like nonchalant aspects of other cultures, but they kill, maim and mutilate women, thousands of them. You get what you pay for? What the f--k is that supposed to mean? And the dowry murder is largely because the female is being traded in, even if it's to get another dowry which will provide revenue for a television set. This is the nation where baby girls are found dead in garbage heaps, sand in their nostrils. The belief that a son is more important than a daughter is a STAPLE of sexism and borne from patriarchal societies and the religious delusions that foster their mores.
Where is your heart?
I'll accept "cold and clinical," although I'd call it factual and informed. My heart is fine, so far, thank God, ticks along quite nicely. However, I do not use it for thinking because it actually doesn't do that quite as well as my brain does. And I find your tone of muddled hysteria as objectionable as you find mine.
"You get what you pay for" meant that enslaving people who practiced female genital mutilation perhaps infected the slaveowners with the same practice.
Dowry murders, I state again, are not the "trading in" of brides but the murdering of them. And they are murdered because the parents of the girl promised a dowry they then failed to pay. When you trade in a car, chances are it's then sold on to someone else.
"This is the nation where baby girls are found dead in garbage heaps, sand in their nostrils."
I think that Americans, whose citizens practice mass murder with tedious regularity and whose government is responsible for the impoverishment, deaths and descent into prostitution and suicide of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi women and girls, are the very last people to make sweeping judgments on the evil done by and in other nations.
Rainborowe
Sioux Rose
RAINBOROWE: You're stuck in your ego, and your intellectual constructs as in logic limits love; but it takes love to open the soul to what I am speaking about here. We are operating on different wavelengths and thus cannot connect in a meaningful way. Your clinical cold view seeks to rationalize what should NEVER be countenanced by any civil society; and you are satisfied with so-called facts. These replace your fully taking in what these acts involve. I read the energies behind events and seek to understand the forces that shape them. This in the pursuit of helping the children of tomorrow to avoid the horrendous pitfalls of today by extending a higher understanding. It does take all kinds, or 12 basic models anyway, to make a world. You serve your purpose and I serve mine, but the essences of our "threads" do not jibe. For me to continue speaking to you is tantamount to arguing with a tree.
I am not "rationalizing" anything! I'm simply stating the facts about things I happen to know something about.
Rainborowe
R A I N B O R O W E
There is a higher ground of perspective, that some of us favor, that inspires a larger viewpoint of mere facts and discernment of reality. After you've cut and labeled all of the "parts", what exactly are you left holding ?
The basis of much of new age thinking is seeking the balance of all of life, especially the abundance expressed in nature, and love. I believe that Siouxrose tangibly expresses this awakening integration, and often attempts to aid the wayward travelers that have interest in choosing a "better" path.
Esoteric knowledge stems from systemic and interwoven threads in multiple dimensions of space and consciousness ( right hemi brain ), and while left brain sequential linear thinking is great at solving smaller scope problems that can be broken down, we now live in a world where intuition is needed to see interdependent relationships that otherwise ( left brain thinking ) are not perceivable.
One's thinking impacts one's perceptions, and that positive feedback can work to great advantage or deficit.
I enjoy sharing a model of reflection and perceiving where one views their thinking brain ( sometimes called ego ) somewhat as a device or program that is available and at all of our disposal, for whatever we chose to focus upon.
Just as fire is sometimes described as a wonderful servant, but a terrible master -- I view thinking similarly.
One chooses to perpetuate and reinforce a pattern of thinking in part personal experience, culture, and miscellaneous -- by just letting the brain race along, with some minor corrections. This is using the mind as master, as similar to a guided missile's navigation system -- one can either focus one's intention on a target ( mind as slave ) or let "reality" of the moment randomly throw up some half-baked destination.
Much of who we are and what we do is on autopilot, and brain as master runs most people's lives -- and the unexamined life is by some considered not "worth" living. In these moments of loss of guidance, our superficial lives are about eating the pretty looking menu and not the sumptuous meal, we get confused and believe that our crude sketched out maps are actually the same as the real ever varying filed of reality.
What SIOUXROSE is attempting to describe to you is nominally outside of the experience of one who is often the subject of his masterful mind. The mind certainly has it's place, but only serves us effectively when we create positive intentions and envision laudable future goals -- like a beautiful future for ( ALL of ) our children.
Pursuit of increasing aspects of consciousness is all about the richness of life's experiences, and how they can lead us to the unknown and unprecedented. Who wants the past and our history to be the best indicator of our future ?
Taking hold of the wheel, as The Captain of each of our own vessels, is about seeking ever greater knowledge of ourselves, to better set our courses and to better achieve our possible and promised destinations.
The auto-pilot is always going to be there, just a flick of a switch away, ready for our apparent slumber and deferring to emergent reality, impulses, and half-baked ideas-- to guide our thinking and lives.
¿ As in the "Graduate", wouldn't you like your subtle ideas that drive your perceptions and life to be " fully baked " ?
It's all about choosing more wisely, each moment.
Namaste
Sioux Rose
Ah, Namaste, I did so lament that you went missing from this rigorous discussion! And how much you add with your intelligence & eloquence & understanding. If you and I ever got to host a radio program, it would be the talk of the nation, among the enlightened, or daring-to-be-thus! Wow! (You really filled in the blanks, and then some!) I am sending you a "namaste bow."
We are each other's mirrors to exhibit that truth we have yet to fully perceive for ourselves.
Isn't it odd that human confrontation is often about what we see as the "same" in another -- but do not like it in ourselves, so we hate it more in the others -- and therefore fight … We then resist, and it persists.
When the evolved person takes the 'log out of his/her eye' to aid the other to remove their 'mote', we express the discernment of these "differences" to progress and know ourselves more wisely.
We are ALL separate in form, while dynamically seeking unity in the formless -- our individual expressions of existence are linked to a common reality, that variation between us is often perceived as bad because it is different.
Perhaps the truth is that those perceived variations and contrasts are there as something intrinsically good, as it allows us to experience a greater degree of honesty and open perception -- aliveness / presence ?
Eventually we do learn from our mistakes, but what about learning from those people that really piss us off ?
Now that's true wisdom.
Namaste
I have no idea what you're talking about!
"After you've cut and labeled all of the "parts", what exactly are you left holding ?" I am not aware of having cut or labeled any "parts" (parts of what?) or of holding anything, either.
"I believe that Siouxrose tangibly expresses this awakening integration," I'll grant that you come rather closer to meaning than SiouxRose, but only because your use of English is closer to standard and you don't use question marks as decorative touches to statements. But the content, if I'm permitted to so misuse a word, is just as much gobbledygook as hers is.
Another thing: this is a political site and commenters generally respond to the published articles or to the comments on those articles made by fellow visitors to the site. It's hard to see the relevance of this "new age" (is that what you call it?) maundering to either. Also it's an English language site; in general people don't post in other languages and Sioux Rose's and your post above make about as much sense to me as Mongolian would, and the only Mongolian I know is "yurt."
Rainborowe
R A I N B O R O W E
You say that "I have no idea what you're talking about!", and that is perfectly fine and an expression of clear honesty, which is an auspicious start.
There's something in you responding to SIOUX and I, as perhaps you're drawn to a glitter only vaguely perceived, off at the edge of understanding.
You show concern about my postings as appearing as : "just as much gobbledygook as hers is."
I know the world is challenging for all of us to perceive fully, and some people are just more aware or conscious ( of what they don't know that they don't know ) while others are convinced there is no more to be seen. Language is changing with the augmentation of people's perception, and perhaps outside of your observations of society -- many of us strongly believe in essentially a transformation of society ( like teenage to adult ).
You state that : "It's hard to see the relevance of this "new age" (is that what you call it?) "
I submit that those more aware are perfectly suited to discuss progressive issues, due to the profound nature of interconnectedness of issues and people, which require novel out-of-the-box thinking for solutions.
The massive paradigm shift is occurring, has already gone way beyond "new age" for many of us. There are now globally millions of self-organizing grass roots groups of every possible type, that are rising up to represent important issues that existing institutions have failed to deliver upon. These are emergent expressions of people's long held back frustrations of working within the system that has basically failed all, but the richest elites.
Whatever you see and experience is just fine for where you are, and reading and posting on CD is a great beginning for people's exposure to issues well outside of mainstream media's constant preoccupation with Brittany's latest crisis, or similar trivia.
I suspect from the tone of your postings, that you are young and likely College educated, which is great beginning.
None of us know for sure where life is heading. This type of forum is all about preparing and clarifying our choices, so we can go forward with better preparations and ideas.
There is an ancient wise saying ( some might re-tread it as "new age" ), similar to 'bringing a horse to water, and then attempting to make him drink' :
The teacher arrives,
when the student is willing
Namaste
Actually I'm old and a retired university professor.
Rainborowe
"Every healthy human being seeks love and a sense of belonging. Our spiritual natures long for the state of communion with Creator, or the great Beingness that is eternal".
"Without love, without a SACRED sense of the joining together of the male and female, the entire fabric of Creation unravels".
SIOUX ROSE, you have hit at the heart of spirituality and the taste of the Divine. American capitalistic consumer culture has robbed us of our humanity.
The devil (evil) was never to appear with a red costume, horns and a pitchfork, but in realty, to appear on earth as goodness, like a hansome successful man in a dark pin striped suite and with a briefcase (like the Davos elite). Evil seldom appears as evil, it often appears as virtue.
Bravo!
The state we are in is patriarchy which is fascism in itself --
underpinned by patriarchy's invention: organized patriarchal religion.
Patriarchy involves organized war on Nature and women/children.
Continuing your thoughts . . .
"The human self defines itself and grows through love and work - all
psychology before and after Freud boils down to that."
Betty Friedan
"The loveless crave power because they lack both love and self."
Betty Friedan
"According to all myth, the female - not the male -- gives life"
Sioux Rose
CONSCIENCE, STEPHEN & CHESS GAME: We're all in agreement, just reinforcing each other's prescient points.
As to this idea of balance, truly the structural blueprint creation is Writ in as granted evidence through our own DNA (the doubled helix involving an equal contribution of Yin and Yang, or She and He mattter)... I realize SOME women are identifying with the masculine "reality" model moving into the military or intensely competitive "gotta play with those balls!" sports; but it might be said that the many gay males who excel at interior design, food preparation, and fashion (to name a few venues of the much maligned Venus) are unconsciously contributing their part to regain the great balance.
If even 10% of the US budget was taken from miliarism and its exploits and directed at art, architecture, music, ballet, museum-building, poetry coventions, theatrical productions, community rehab projects & gardens, we would begin to see GAIA heal. I would also personally love to see a TRUE Sabbath, which is to say a day alloted to nature to simply be and heal... the poor Mother is exhausted and coming apart at the seams. In other words all the factories come to a stop, all the national parks close, all the shops turn off the lights, etc. There can be no music without pauses, i.e. the "rest beats."
Sioux Rose,
Does not people like Hillary Clinton and Condi Rice have a place in this "Mars mans world" of yours?
Don't blame just men for the evil done.
Sioux Rose
I wonder sometimes if some people in this forum are A. brain-dead B. suffer from amnesia or C. Just want to waste MY time! I have explained this on at least FIVE occasions. First, there is a parallel between Jesus specifically choosing TWELVE disciples, and Abraham fostering TWELVE tribes. This number relates to the Zodiac as ancient blueprint for the types of people that inhabit our world. From these 12 archetypes which COULD exist in a PERFECT balance if the wisdom of the Holy circle was understood and respected in our world... comes Mars. It is only ONE archetype, but as I often argue in this forum, the one that's subsumed all the others and under the pretense of monotheism, made its claim to speak for God. Most patriarchal religions foster a Deity that has many characteristics consistent with Mars.
There are 12 basic personae, and thus 5 other masculine alternatives, though they get little "press time." The most marginalized is Uranus, the natural rebel and free thinker, and the planet that I associate with true progressives. Among the female archetypes is Athena, the daughter of Zeus, and no ordinary daughter as she who is born to sit so close to the seat of Olympian power. Her modern equivalent is the daughter of a financial tycoon like Kristy Hefner. Ms. Hefner enjoys the financial freedom built on her father's "Got milk" breast fetish. The really dark aspect of Athena, apart from her SUPPORT of war & militarism (read mythology, it's in the fine print) is that she DENIES having been born from a Mother. She literally emerges from Zeus' head, i.e. a woman whose entire mindset is shaped from the patriarchy. That type of female, which is Condi and Hilary and M. Thatcher (and others) is VERY comfortable with the status quo. She is in some respects the female version of Mars.
I teach the circle as I believe one tool for mankind's development, to transcend the costly ism divisions that have now brought us literally to the abyss, is to look higher for meaning. One size fits all has been shaped by Mars, yes, even down to academe where the rules of engagement are based on competition and self-interest. Mars is not just about guns... it's also about naked self-interest, the ego, as opposed to the heart/soul/spirit.
EVERYONE has a Mars factor, that's why one can argue that all humans have some violent potential. What impresses me is how well some people are able to neutralize Mars, which is to say bring it into harmony with the other archetypal influences. It is true to say that "the galaxy lives within each of us," as each is a biological equivalent of a cosmic Kodak moment... nor do I believe that these patterns come at random. From an estoeric perspective the birth blueprint reveals where the soul has left off in development based on previous sojourns on this challenging but beautiful planet.
Women have adapted to the patriarchal paradigm, too. How many women will risk not wearing a burka in the Arab world? How many females raised in fundamentalist Christian homes will go against the idea inculcated into them on threat of mortal sin that they disobey their fathers/husbands? The women who cut the genitals of other women (*it's called clitorectomy) have themselves been wounded, not only physiologically but spiritual & psychologically, by beliefs that do NOT tolerate female sexual pleasure. I have made a number of comments in the past few days linking violence/war to violence/sexual abuse/pornography. Any who have difficulty navigating those links are probably fighting a necessary realization in themselves.
very good stuff sister.
to the end.
(BTW - you wrote "EVERYONE has a Mars factor". Am I the only one who noticed the Mars bar wrappers among the debris on the floor of Saddam Hussein's hidey hole? Talk about your product placement.)
Sioux Rose
VDB? Is that true? If so, dang... sure gonna use that prop! Thanks for relating it!
I have an eye for detail and a love of the ironic.
I'm still searching for stills from his capture to prove I wasn't hallucinating.
(so how come you don't have your own website?)
Sioux Rose
VDB: I do, and a brand new book that goes into depth about the archetypes. I worked on it for many years, and hope to do some serious lectures on this subject. I am going to send copies to the heads of Feminist Studies departments and see what happens. The time to broaden the concepts of masculinity and feminity is long overdue, and as an added bonus, I deconstruct the idea of time as a linear notion, and instead invite people to dance in synch with the thematic moods drawn from the movements of the spheres. HOLST did a wonderful set of symphonies in honor of the planets, often used as the backdrop to documentary films. It's powerful stuff!
vdb
Sioux Rose: Thanks for being the prompt to stop procrastinating and finally checking this out. I am glad to discover that you, too, have a sense of the absurd; however, I wouldn't want to have you relying on my memory alone. I found no pictures, but loads of references to Saddam's fondness for Mars.
This seems to be the most reliable:
The raids targeted two sites (codenamed Wolverine 1 and Wolverine 2) outside the village of ad-Dawr but failed initially to find Saddam. A subsequent cordon and search operation found the fugitive dictator hiding in a so-called "spider hole" at a small mud-walled compound. He was taken into custody at 20:30 local time. He was armed with a pistol, but showed no resistance during his capture. The soldiers also found two AK-47 rifles, US$750,000 in $100 bills, Mars bars, a stash of SPAM (a food prohibited under Muslim Halal) and a white and orange taxicab. Two Iraqis, believed to be Saddam's former cook Qais Namuk and his brother, were also taken into custody in the raid. Saddam was later moved to an undisclosed location as soldiers continued to search the area.
http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Capture_of_Saddam_Hussein/
(beats me how saddam got a taxicab into his hole.)
p.s. would the undisclosed location saddam was moved to be the same as where cheney used to hang out practicing his waterboarding?
Thank you Sioux Rose for the depth of your wisdom. I read CD postings to feed off the energy of bright minded and well read people like yourself and in many cases, I can appreciate their unique perspectives.
Yes, it is all about balance as other posters have posted. To me, balance is really about wisdom, embracing opposing viewpoints, contemplating the oppostes to attain spiritual discernment. These are the spiritual dynamics to be treasured in the practice of democracy. Democracy is not solely about civics, it is about the quest for wisdom. Seldom is democracy viewed in this way because most people like to separate the spiritual from their material. In a way, American society fears the spiritual (from the abuse of institutional religion which has pretty much turned its' back on spirituality).
America...a Democracy?...surely you jest!
Sioux Rose
STEPHEN V: Thank you very much for the lovely compliment. You and I resonate to a similar frequency.
Sioux Rose,
I don't know whether to be shock and awed by your brilliance or baffled by your Bull Shit.
What does any of that have to do with the article?
Sounds to me that you are baffled by Sioux Rose's brilliance... Which leads you to come to one of two logical conclusions... Either she is more informed than you about various systems of knowledge and how they interrelate with our own psyches... Or she is full of shit...
Since it is too difficult for you to challenge the premises upon which you have built your perception of reality upon... after the connection was succunctly and eloquently explained by her... Just keep on telling youself that she is full of shit and off-topic... It is easier than thinking.
Sioux Rose
GOLDEN MEAN: Thank you for the eloquent & elegant defense. I appreciate your code of honor! And of course find many of your arguments compelling and well-stated. I will name a firefly after you (in a work of fiction, of course!).
I would be honored to have my pseudonym be the name of a ficticious firefly...
I went sailing in my 26 footer yesterday, after remodeling the interior with salvaged wood and antique fixtures all winter, it was wonderful to be out on the water in the sunshine with my lady and a friend... not much wind, but we were happy just to be out enjoying the day...
Thank you for sharing about your bike ride under the silver sliver moon... The perfect antidote for the logical/analitical mindtrap of ego...
When I read comments by other folks demanding that you prove to them with measureable evidence about the way astrology affects our lives, I think they are taking for granted that each of us are voluntarily sharing our own knowledge and perspective on this forum...
You don't owe anyone any explanation, Sioux rose, since you don't need to prove anything to anyone, least of all the skeptics...
However, I am grateful that you do invest your time and energy in this forum, even if it is pro Bono... As I am constantly learning new ideas from your posts... Keep on shining your light within, as it makes it easier for others to find their light within as well...
Sioux Rose
GOLDEN MEAN: The generosity of someone such as yourself empowers me to share this form of seeing (the astro-logos) that has been restricted for centuries. Ironic that in this long thread I was speaking more about the relationship between porn and violence; but the usual critics showed up to ask for astrological specifics.
Interesting that you mentioned sailing. My father left me some stocks and I cashed some out and bought a sailboat last year; but it's a lot harder to navigate than I realized! Cedar Key, Florida has FOUR changes of tide a day, whereas I thought most places had two? When the water goes out, it's so shallow, just like the Florida Keys, so you really have to know what you are doing to navigate the narrow channels. Storms also shift the underwater topography, sometimes quite substantially. We can actually see islands grow and alter offshore. One of America's largest preserved bird sancutaries exists there. Lots of dolphin and good fishing. A friend of mine sometimes stays on the sailboat, but he took it UP (what a saga) the Suwannee River recently; and now the river is higher than flood stage, and all the spring runs and state parks are closed. On the plus side, I've seen animals that I've not seen before as they feel free to come out with no humans around. I'd like to think Earth Mother, not given that necessary time-out/rest beat has asserted one for herself by raising the water levels.
Enjoy the sailing! What a skill, art, and treat for your family!
One is free to skip that which one fails to understand or otherwise dislikes. One is puzzled as to motivations behind stupid insults.
Sioux Rose
You are a fool. I don't suffer them kindly. (hoyty toyty ding dong dunce)
Sioux Rose,
You are so full of your self, teacher. If you were on topic, I would have nothing to say, but you, and some of your stoner friends get too far out to have any relevance, sometimes.
And when you do, and anyone comments to you, your egos deflate.
Like I said before, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
Sioux Rose
HT: The topic is the banality of evil. I contend that violence is bred from porn because porn cheapens life, and all violence starts with a cheapening of life, i.e. failing to recognize the OTHER as a person (when placing them on the receiving end of aggression). If you can't see a correspondence, maybe it's because of your own narrowed vision. Imagine what else that kind of tunnel vision might miss?
We as a culture have a dark view of sexuality to begin with I fear, as well as a demeaning view of the role of women. Even into the twenty first century, sad.
The real question for Mr. Douglas seems to be ,why can he not disagree without rudeness, insult and superiority? Signs of a person uncertain of hinmself I fear.
SR wrote:
"EVERYONE has a Mars factor, that's why one can argue that all humans have some violent potential. What impresses me is how well some people are able to neutralize Mars, which is to say bring it into harmony with the other archetypal influences. It is true to say that "the galaxy lives within each of us," as each is a biological equivalent of a cosmic Kodak moment... nor do I believe that these patterns come at random. From an estoeric perspective the birth blueprint reveals where the soul has left off in development based on previous sojourns on this challenging but beautiful planet."
A couple basic questions for you, SR.
Why do you and other astrologers and new-agers put so much emphasis on the "blueprint" of the time of birth, as opposed to the time of conception, when one's genetic characteristics are factually, scientifically determined?
Why so much emphasis on the influence of heavenly bodies on the individual? The gravitational pull of the obstetrician is several times greater than that of Mars, for example, but I never see astrological charts with the delivering person taken into account. You all seem to have this extreme fetish about a small subset of objects in the solar system.
Finally, and most importantly, by what MEANS do the planets exert such important and detailed influence on the development of humans? Gravity is much too crude a force, even if gravity weren't already excluded for other scientific reasons.
I'm very eager to read your responses. Sorry if you consider me brain-dead, but I don't often attend your court here.
El-hamdu'lillah! (That means "Thank God".) Thank you for that comment, Yohocoma! I'm so relieved that someone here isn't into that twaddle, I can now die happy!
Rainborowe
Sioux Rose
YOHOCOMA: Thank you for showing more respect this evening. I'll try to respond to your questions.
As to the first as per conception, how often is it even known? I feel your logical linearity in the posing of this question because one who understood that everything is ultimately connected by something like an invisible weave, the fabric of the universe (don't forget the scientists keep seeing smaller and smaller bits of "matter" and are constantly learning how this "matter" and energy work, sometimes interchangably) would realize that ultimately everything true will reveal the same elements of the ongoing, inter-related design. I'll bring IT down to earth: let's say that a child was just born whose moon is in harsh aspect (square or opposition) to his Mars, and there at least two other factors (astrological) that reinforce that trend... then if we COULD travel back in time to the moment of conception we would probably already see unstable factors between the parents.
I just had a rigorous bike ride and the new moon almost resembled an eclipse. One could see the entire solar reflection against this magical moon. In any case, I thought about what someone asked earlier... why it is that women can be capable of violence and cruelty, and apart from the chart dynamics... as it DOES take current events to trigger these latent trends, not everyone shows up and sometimes we astrologers ARE surprised when a person acts out of character, or proves able to transcend a weakness of character ostensibly read from the chart/blueprint. The answer that came to me is that women who feel loved are NOT the ones who murder their children, or scream at them, or punish them in undermining ways. Many people may manage to live together, go through the motions, but I think love has become all too rare in our world. I like what the Greeks had to say in dividing love into different types, with different words to suit these various expressions. Love can mean different things to each of us.
Should the obstetrician (hmm.. I just realized how the word obstacle seems to come from that word, and how many obstetricians, as opposed to midwives, induce or interrupt or interfere with natural birth, i.e. act as obstacles) fall on the patient to exert greater gravity than Mars, I could probably make a grand case for WHY that event took place with the time and date of its manifestation! Some kind of collision or radical contact would show. I'm working on weather predicting and keep track of my own hits and misses.
As to why the planets exert detailed influence, it is more that every living being is clocked to the great cosmic rhythms, these move through us and we take them for granted, or don't recognize them at all. People cut off nature at every turn, how many do what I did tonight, bike under the stars and FEEL their world? How many are not encased in a train, auto, bus and move from job to home with barely any pause to ask and feel how the LIVING world all around them is actually doing?
There are also biorhythmic connections. Most women menstruate on a 29 day cycle which mirrors the cycle of the moon. In fact, it is the key subject of a new book I just finished, one I worked on for about 15 years off and on. There's been scant study of the relationship between the rapid changes of the moon and why women's moods alter with far greater frequency than do those of men. (Cancer men, or men with strong moon would prove the exception.) We age because our earth takes 365 days to circle the sun. Those are very obvious planetary connections with human beings, the others are more subtle. Here's one for you to peruse at your leisure. It involves Saturn, the "father time" planet that codes many of the significant passages, the chapter changes of our lives. It's orb is about 29 years and dividing the circle by its 4 90-degree square points, about every 7 years Saturn challenges its original position. This planet is linked with not only purpose and worldly ambition, but what our chief karmic lessons involve. The 7 year knock is the equivalent of Hamlet's father coming back as a ghost to haunt him: "Have you forgotten you anointed purpose, Hamlet?"
Can you find any connection with events at age 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, 56, 63, 70 etc? Give it about 6 months in either direction. The 28-30 first Saturn return (it returns to its initial zone of dominion) occurs when most people realize their lives are pretty tied down by lots of responsibilities. The 2nd, age 56-59 often involves career recognition, especially if the individual really paid their dues and worked hard. The last one is the final act of life, meant to be the great review or recapitulation. Everyone starts out as a skeptic, but if they really read or do their own research in this field, the wonders of synchronicity become many. And for me that supports my belief in a Divine Order, and ultimate universal justice.
SR, thanks for replying. Your responses aren't clarifying for me, though.
"one who understood that everything is ultimately connected by something like an invisible weave...would realize that ultimately everything true will reveal the same elements of the ongoing, inter-related design. I'll bring IT down to earth: let's say that a child was just born whose moon is in harsh aspect (square or opposition) to his Mars, and there at least two other factors (astrological) that reinforce that trend... then if we COULD travel back in time to the moment of conception we would probably already see unstable factors between the parents."
It seems you're saying that because of an "invisible weave" connecting everything across time, the use of birth time to base charts on isn't so critical - you can even glean information about the person, relevant at time of conception, based on celestial configurations at time of birth!
But conception and birth are about 9 months apart usually, and in 9 months the earth, moon, alignments with constellations, etc., have changed drastically. Between conception and birth the gestating human has traveled between different sun signs, for example, and much of astrology seems to be based on the differences of sun signs alone. So wouldn't the human, if given a reading at time of conception, have a significantly different reading than at time of birth? Then how can you confidently claim you would "see unstable factors" if you could go back - in what astrology-sensible way would you even relate them?
Please describe much more about the nature of this "invisible weave", which seems to be little more than a rhetorical device to accomplish hand-waving.
"Should the obstetrician...fall on the patient to exert greater gravity than Mars, I could probably make a grand case for WHY that event took place with the time and date of its manifestation! Some kind of collision or radical contact would show. I'm working on weather predicting and keep track of my own hits and misses."
You really ducked my question here. I'm not asking about a collision. The planets don't collide with babies being born either. I'm asking why the force of more mundane but much closer and more significant objects isn't taken into account in astrology - the delivering person, the building the delivery happens in, the bed the mother might be lying on, etc. And why not the effects of more distant but much more massive objects, such as galaxies, supernovae, etc.?
"As to why the planets exert detailed influence, it is more that every living being is clocked to the great cosmic rhythms, these move through us and we take them for granted, or don't recognize them at all. People cut off nature at every turn, how many do what I did tonight, bike under the stars and FEEL their world? How many are not encased in a train, auto, bus and move from job to home with barely any pause to ask and feel how the LIVING world all around them is actually doing?"
You digress lyrically, but you're really shedding no light at all on the "great cosmic rhythms" which you say move through us. What is their nature? Where do they come from? How can they be studied, observed, measured? - as an astrologer, you claim to have some knowledge of these rhythms, and you use them as an essential backstop to try to tie everything together.
You offer the correlation of menstrual phase and moon cycle, and speculate on other, much vaster correlations such as moon/moods and Saturn/29-year major life events cycle, but you offer no proof, no evidence of causation, or hypothetical means by which any of this would happen.
Sioux Rose
YOHOCOMA: The premise is that when the fetus takes its first BREATH on its own, it establishes itself as a separate entity with its own plan of destiny; but as related, we are all connected, particularly those who are connected through family ties. The nature of the delivery and the way life begins is seen in the birth chart dynamics. AS I said, one could use the chart as a template and recognize patterns around conception through it because time is not so linear as you choose to believe. Everything has its roots in what was, and each of us in this moment is a product of all the previous times we've spent embodied.
I am not saying the planets CAUSE how we behave but there are themes embedded into time, there are timeless qualities which explains why literature from centuries ago remains contemporary. The fundaments of human character do not alter. They are represented by the planetary principles and in my view constitute a form of SPIRITUAL DNA. Some day science may be wise enough to take this into account and do its own research; however, astrologers have utilized this material for many centuries.
What you ask me to do--explain the rhythms etc is what people study years to understand. I feel I have given you enough to go on. Do your own research. I donated yesterday to this forum; but I have other tasks. You want me to "square the circle" to suit YOUR need for proof. That is NOT my responsibility. If the subject interests you, study it... and then you will find the proof you're seeking.
"How many women will risk not wearing a burka in the Arab world?"
Actually 100% of Arab women don't wear a burka, if you mean the head-to-toe robe with just a mesh over the eyes worn by Afghan women. Afghans are not Arabs!
I think that perhaps most Saudi women still wear an 'abaya, a black silk cloak, with a hejab (full-face veil of either coarse cotton mesh or silk/nylon georgette) although I haven't been there in the last 20 years so I can't say for sure. Qataris used to wear the half-face veil called a "burka" in Arabic worn below the eyes. Syrian women from a few families used to wear the full face veil with otherwise completely modern dress. Libyans new to the sinful city would wear a "ferashiya" (literally "bed sheet") wrapped around to expose one eye only. But other Arab women haven't worn veils for a century or more. Even then it was the dress of the would-be respectable new-to-the-city-dwellers. Country women could hardly work in the fields wearing such clothes.
Rainborowe
Sioux Rose
RAIN: You're such a natural "facts checker," and I will concede to your point here as I did over-generalize. I should have said in those regions where strict Islamic law must be followed, women are generally made to conform by wearing items that cover them from head to foot, or cover substantial parts of their body and head.
I have spent many years as a woman in the Arab world; why would you assume that "women are made to conform"?
Rainborowe
Rainborowe,
As one who seems to know I would ask whether the apparent subjugation of women in public is limited to those places and peoples who live under Sharia law? I do recall that, in Iraq, women held prominent roles in government, medicine, education and the law, while in Saudi Arabia they are not even allowed to drive cars.
http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol5/v5n30women.html
In discussions of general issues facing women in the Middle East, the diversity of female lifestyles and conditions is often lost. Accustomed to stereotypical depictions, Westerners are told that Middle Eastern women are passive, weak, and always veiled. It is often assumed that the severe conditions in Saudi Arabia—where women are not even allowed to drive cars—represent the norm for women throughout the Middle East and in the larger Muslim world. In reality, Saudi Arabia’s versions of both Islam and sexism are rather unique in their severities, although the rule of the Taliban in Afghanistan is now emulating the sexist Saudi model. Women enjoy political and social rights in many Muslim countries, and Egypt has recently granted women the right to divorce their husbands. In Tunisia, abortion is legal, and polygamy is prohibited. Women have served as ministers in the Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian, Iraqi, and Tunisian governments, and as Vice President in Iran.
RedRick: First of all, there are various schools of interpretation of Shari'a and they vary in their harshness. Most Middle-Eastern countries only use Shari'a for their family law (marriage contracts, divorce, inheritance), and only for Muslims (Christians and Jews use their own canonical law for such events). But in all the countries I've lived in (Arab countries, that is) only Saudi Arabia and perhaps some of the other Gulf states use Shari'a for the entire law of the land.
The reason things are the way they are in S.A. is less Shari'a law than the particularly puritanical (some would say backward) version of religion practised there. Wahhabi-ism was a "back to basics" movement that took over the part of Saudi Arabia around Riyadh and was then spread to the whole country by King Abdel-Azziz's conquest the early 20th Century. (I'm simplifying the history here). Wahhabi-ism has some striking similarites to Anglo-American Puritanism of the early 17th century. Public signs indicating "Women" or "Men" have simple depictions of the body (clothed) without the head because only the Creator can "make" a living being. Praying is taken, well, religiously; 5 times a day and in a mosque at that. Plain and modest dress is required for both sexes in public and in everything segregation is the rule. Playgrounds are not open to women; fathers are supposed to be the ones to take their children out while the women do their tasks at home or, perhaps, rest or visit their families and friends.
My experience was that unmarried girls of college age in the Arab world often seemed more like young teenagers than adults, but that once married the women became incredibly strong, much stronger than American women. Nor were they passive; Jordanian and Palestinian women, those I knew the best, would take on anyone, including feckless husbands.
I was surprised at your announcement that Egyptian women had been granted the right to divorce their husbands because it never occurred to me that they wouldn't be able to. I know that women in other Arab countries can divorce husbands. It takes more effort than it does when a man divorces his wife but I've known of quite a few Arab women who left their husbands, returned to their parents' homes, and then divorced their husbands. It's complicated because the standard marriage contract contains two bride prices in most countries: the immediate payment at the signing of the contract and the "later" payment to be made in the event the husband divorces the wife. However, the Egyptian marriage system is different in two ways: there the custom is for the bride to provide a dowry, not the groom to endow the bride and I've no idea what happens to the goods when either one divorces the other.
I believe I posted elsewhere about the religous movement in the wake of the Iranian revolution and how girls who had never worn anything other than Western dress started turning up in full Islamic fig. In most cases their families were appalled, but the girls did what they wanted. One or two eventually gave it up. But many students wearing the long skirts and headscarves were peasant girls from the villages, often the first to go to school in their families, and the dress was somehow to keep them safe from the horrors that were believed to lurk in the "big cities." It didn't necessarily mean they were particularly religious. Oh, and these young women would take on the young men in the class and really smack them down! They took no prisoners.
This is probably more than you wanted to know, but I hope it helps.
Rainborowe
Man, you sure take yourself and your weird, superstitious giberish seriously...don't you? Who do you think takes your crap seriously other than you and other leftoid flakes?
You flirt with all the serious topics, but it's all about you and your ridiculous superstitious crap.
Man, you sure take yourself and your weird self imposed role as arbiter of subject matter seriously...dont you? Who do you think takes your criticisms seriously other than you and other curmudgeonly types?
Well, if you read myth, surely you will know that "grey eyed Athena" is also the goddess of the crafts. Of weaving. Of wisdom. She is said to have invented the flute, the trumpet, the earthenware pot, the plough, the rake, the ox-yoke, the horse-bridle, the chariot, and the ship. She is also said to be the first teacher of the science of numbers, and all "women's" arts: weaving, cooking, and spinning. Very militaristic indeed.
And while your contention of Athena denying having been born of a mother is dark, and represents a woman whose entire mindset is shaped from patriachy is one interpretation, there are other interpretations. Including other feminist interpretations.
Aside from all that, you appear to be saying that just like men, there are also women who do not fit into simplistic stereotypes of "masculine" and "feminine". That just like men, women are multifarious and diverse. So, have you considered that your stereotypes are too simplistic?
As for Kristin Hefner, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, she refuses to put people, and to allow herself to be put into, the simplistic boxes that you want to put people into? Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, women might, just might, like porn too: Playgirl.
Sioux Rose
RFLOH: I can't begin to describe how much I detest the mindset you represent. I suppose you are the type who thinks smoking should be your FREE RIGHT in a restaurant. If Porn were about SEX and the delicious beauty of sexuality I would have no issue with it. When it is 2 men's penises up a woman's anus, and then she is expected to provide both these men with oral sex AFTER I think that is unclean, unwholesome and grossly degrading. Or if it is one woman felating an entire sports team.
There is no sense that the woman is a PERSON, her pleasure is not considered at all and many of these acts are painful if not absolutely denigrating. For any women to argue for this makes me wonder what she is made of. I belive you and I (you under cover of another screen name) have had this debate before.
The predominant story of Athena is what I said, emerged from Zeus' head, and if you have read my COUNTLESS posts in this forum, you would know that I teach the circle, and 12 basic archetypes. I have made a VERY compelling case that MARS, has emerged as the DOMINANT male persona that profoundly influences Western culture, particularly this sick nation. I am a romantic, and see the universe as an eternal love song, as a courtship between the endless dancing interplay of he and she, yang and yin. I believe porn degrades that and plays a role in the distortions and desensitization that leads to by turns, war, violence, and now a virtual free pass on torture.
There are persons/minds in this forum who are so strict in their allegiance to categorical emphases that they do not see, cannot see, how these expressions relate and reinforce one another.
I would prefer NOT to dialog with you further as from a spiritual perspective, I am a winged thing and you crawl through the filth of the earth, and seem to find pleasure in it. In other words, there IS no possibility of a meeting of minds here. Enjoy the mud... oh, and one more point. Persons like you who argue that indulging in acts destructive to the spirit constitues your FREEDOM are selfish creatures indeed, for you pay no heed to what they acts, taken in composite, due to the grain and texture of a society. Those are freedoms unwisely asked for. I suppose if I had your accurate birth data I could see where and why you argue for the deranged and think yourself sophisticated.
Rose, there are many women (and men) who are 'lost,' and claim that they find these things pleasurable (i.e., even pain in some cases). What happens with sex can happen with any entertainment, drug, or even religious experience. If the pleasure of sex becomes an end it itself, a bigger and better 'fix' is sought. People begin to experiment with BDSM (for example) to enhance their 'pleasure' (meaning increased stimulation). Fetishes and obsessions often follow, and the 'forbidden' becomes more attractive for the very reason that it is considered taboo. So when seeking only pleasure in ANYTHING, one soon becomes bored with that which he or she found formally stimulating, and seeks more extreme expressions of the same. Because sex is such a powerful force in us it more readily lends itself to such 'distortions.'
Sioux Rose
CHESSGAME: I think the larger political aspect is that when these behaviors become normalized they diminish the quality of a society at large. This is where the argument, an extension of property ownership really, comes into play: how does the privilege extended to the individual (in this case the "twisted privilege" to find demeaning sex, the female submitting to being gang banged by upwards of 10 men) harm the society at large. The female who is probably a drug addict, has been sexually abused since childhood, and/or a victim of Stockholm syndrome who "stars" in a film that simulates a degrading gang bang--and reflects to the camera (a stark point made by Jensen, that A. she likes this and B. this is what "Real" women want) messages that then become part of the collective consciousness acted out by society's weakest screws... we ALL pay a price for this.
My boyfriend, an avid TV fan, told me that he's noticed that crash scenes in movies keep getting bigger and bigger. He realizes that people develop tolerance for what scintillates and the ante has to constantly become upped. I see this with empty sex. Sex as a spiritual process of communion, approaching Tantra, is deeply fulfilling; and I suppose those who have NO emotional connection to "other" require the upping of that ante, but it is all about shaming the female, degrading not only her body... as a series of receptables, but the BEING, the PERSON residing there. There is an absolute and utter black hole of connection or respect, of beauty or decency. And that a female in this forum can argue for this? It is a form of selfishness beyond wat I can fathom. It degrades every woman, it configures in the serial killers fantasies, in entire sets of females sold into sexual slavery in SE Asia. What ever happened to edification? Reminds me of a debate I once had with a twisted homosexual (I am not saying all are twisted, this one WAS) where he argued one could get to enlightenment through the gutter... through debased actions, as opposed to those that served the light. I do NOT agree, although I think the soul who has fallen low enough will be given opportunities for catharsis, rebirth and transcendence. Seems this form of sex is a rejection of all spirituality, like trying to give Creator a black eye... and I do believe religious teachings (the fundamentalist for sure) are at the root of MUCH sexual dysfunction and deviance.
Good stuff Siouxrose. Don't ever stop posting here :)
Sioux Rose
GW: Much appreciate the acknowledgment. I look forward to your well-considered posts, too.
Siouxrose, while I agree with much of what you say, to what do you attribute the more non physical types of violence that so many young girls are subjected to from other girls?
I am speaking of mental bullying, shunning, ostracization from groups and such which is every bit as harmful to a persons wholeness as physical harm and violence.
I remember as child one of my dads number one rules. Never hit a girl. It was ingrained in us as we grew up. We could fight and wrestle with our brothers and like but no violence against girls.
Yet at the same time I know my sisters and my female cousins were at the centre of much of the "conflict" where one person would be shunned, shut out of the group or teased. This was also true with my aunts and the various fueds where one part of the family would not talk to another.
Vey much the same happened in the schools where while we might have all participated in the same teasing and bullying of individuals, at the center of such were the girls.
Is this still the mars archetype?
I would appreciate your insight into such.
Sioux Rose
GW NORTH: There is the influence of the prenatal epoch. Like everyone, I come with my own karma so one of my lessons is having a daughter who rejects spirituality. As a result she held a very negative consciousness during her recent pregnancy, and I believe this will influence the type of soul who came through, who will grow up to be her daughter and HER karma. There is also the LEGACY of each soul. Given that periods of peace have been rare on this planet, most of us have known violence or war firsthand, and that remains part of the soul memory. Whether we incarnate in the feminine or masculine (body), we carry many unhealed aspects. The chart, via Mars and moon influences (the moon being memory and a direct facilitator of family patterns and thus modes of conditioning in the present lifetime) will show how the individual will work towards self-interest. And then, too, there, is the general mood of the society, the types of cues, covert and overt, that shape consensus and work a range of behavior modifications to essentially force conformity. In our society, a very cruel one, part of that process would involve the articulation of ugly practices.
I think the less power an individual has or feels they have to direct their own destiny, the likelier they are to use devious means to get what crumbs of satisfaction they can. Up until women were given the right to vote, own property, or choose their own consorts... they would use what looks they had to manipulate men, no doubt. Until our societies are just and fair with privileges passed to all, we will see all kinds of deleterious practices on the part of both genders. However, warfare (and related violent expressions) is the chief expression of Mars. And everyone "has" a Mars signature along with an ego.
Jung made a good case for projection. That is, the man unable or unwilling (by social conditioning) to express feelings will experience them through his mate, as she will emote for him. The female up until recently did not for the most part "own" her Mars, and thus aligned with the male (soldier, a typical form of this type of symbiosis) who identified with Mars. You know the adagem "Women love men in uniform." I consider myself relatively enlightened, and yet I also feel on visceral levels how POWERFUL these cues are. Men do happen to look damned good in uniforms, but that would hardly have me pass aside my principles to get intimate with someone chiefly on that basis. (I might have to fight off my own Mars, which is to say the sense of lust potentially aroused in me on such a "sighting.") I think it's useful (and I have worked with some very enlightened psychiatrists and psychologists who recognized the value of the astrological perspective) to recognize that we all POSSESS these inclinations. The political question is whether we build societies that energize the worst in human nature and then are faced with the cost (karmic, economic, social & psychological) of the "clean up effects," or whether we build societies that nurture the other 11 archetypes starting with Venus, cosmic consort and COUNTERBALANCE to a world too much under thrall to Mars.
Sioux Rose -
you write: As a result she held a very negative consciousness during her recent pregnancy, and I believe this will influence the type of soul who came through, who will grow up to be her daughter and HER karma.
(confused by your use of tenses.
"will influence" and "came through".
has your granddaughter been born?)
some say we choose our present incarnation.
a buddhist visits his mother.
"what brought you here, my son?"
"it was my car, ma."
Sioux Rose
VDB: Thank you for asking. The child has been born, but I think the ego-personality has to grow into its ultimate design in the manner the acorn carries the blueprint for the entire tree. I don't see "evidence" of who the soul is at this time, but I have read the Zodiac degrees which are extremely detailed characterizations, particularly the ones I use. They were delivered to a sincere high-level Initiate clairvoyant. And I have seen their efficacy MANY times.
I think the birth is not a free choice due to karmic ties. Certain lessons are said to be reviewed prior to birth. It's like a space traveler taking off with a flight plan. Suppose you took a life in a past-life experience that you now wish to make up for. Your course would be set to run into this individual now in another body. (If you saw the film "Heaven Can Wait" with Warren Beatty, it alluded to this.) I joked with my boyfriend that he and his father were likely warriors together last time. The father vicariously lived through his son's athleticism and romantic affairs. I went further to say that I felt he had saved his father's life in a moment of great bravery on a battlefield. As a consequence, I continued, "Your father's been saving your life since!" I like when I know the chart dynamics and get to observe how people behave together. Astrology goes SO much deeper than generalizations (although some can be quite apt) about sun signs... sweet dreams, Mr. Car-ma. (I tried to design an oracle by that name... it was all about a simulated drive and what events meet one on the road ahead. Then it took it a step further: what does it mean. Say you were driving in this simulation and a giant boulder comes speeding down the mountain side to block you. Not that there's a specific univeral meaning for that, but I would not say if such an event happened in "real" life that it would be just a coincidence. Consider the possibilities!
While I always appreciate what you have to say on Astrology and archetypes, i do have my own reservations.
In particular I speak to your very "Western" interpretations of Astrology. So as example how does it compare with Chinese Astrology ?
Have you done comparisons between the various systems to see if they are similar and or different ?
Athena/Mars/Jupiter etc and all the myths behind them come to us from the Greeks as I understand it with perhaps some of that inherited from Sumeria , but what OF India and China?
What of the Mayans and Inca?
Sioux Rose
GW: These questions require long involved answers, and it's 11 PM. I'll try to answer tomorrow.
Sioux Rose
GWNORTH: Chinese astrology is rather like the sun-sign stuff that most take for "astrology" when they read their horoscopes. It generally is related to the 12 sign signatures that influence persons born in the same year. In other words, it's related to Jupiter's cycle and far LESS comprehensive than the intricacies of Western astrology.
Vedic astrology as practiced in India, a very precise, but in my view limited system, actually relates the chart to where the constellations were (with reference to the orbit of our entire solar system around a central sun) 2000 years ago. In that system I am not a Leo, but rather a Cancer; and most would find their charts radically different. Logicians like YOHOCOMA and RFLOH would then deduce that astrology cannot be accurate as these widely disparate systems would seem to contradict one another. I see our cosmos like an onion with many layers. EVERYTHING is part of pattern or design, and every element of those designs reflects the Divine Order; thus whether someone has the capacity to read tea leaves or the entrails of an animal, they will find evidence of pattern in a way that may catalyze some form of powerful realization that IS relevant to the present.
When I first got interested in things esoteric I learned that if I had a pressing question I could open ANY book and where my eyes fell on the page, something that had relevance (sometimes the appropriate answer) would emerge. I have seen names appear on license plates before me, lyrics from songs, signs on the road, etc show up JUST when their message was directly pertinent to the topic on my mind. Sign language is everywhere reverberating, but those who have taught their senses to wear blinders don't see any of it.
When you mention the myths, I'd like you to consider this. Can any in this forum imagine what life was like centuries ago when there was no media shaping our thought processes? When persons spent long hours outside being part of nature, and whether consciously or otherwise, learning to READ her signals and sign language? Time was told by the moon, not the sun or linear calendars. People began to see correspondences emerge and wrote them down. I think the ancients saw and felt things today's inured citizens of denatured societies do not, perhaps no longer can. There is so much wisdom found in ancient texts, and what I've done most of the past 40 years is look for areas of congruence. When teachings and revelations from different centuries and parts of the world say the same thing, that gets my attention.
I believe the myths were left as the stories of time that mankind would never lose an understanding of its quintessential link with higher forces.
While it might be too late and we may have to pick it up another time, when I was speaking of Myths and archetypes, I was speaking specifically of say Ares( Mars) God of War as opposed to the Chinese GOD Of War (By memory Kuon Lun)
They are VERY different archetypes.
Now if you look through History WHILE china has in fact been involved in wars and occupies places like, the territory we call China has been pretty much the same territory for hundreds of years.
This causes me tho think HOW WE CHOOSE to define our archetypes acts as some sort of feedback mechanism in our respective societies In other words the archetypes do not define US we define them.
This is akin to those experiments where children with certain physical traits had the teacher and classmates DEFINE what those traits meant , this followed by children with those traits acting in said manner.
Sioux Rose
GW NORTH: I appreciate the points you raised. How about this: that the archetypes become energetic entities, very real in their own "right," and yet they are also malleable. I see it as an invisible interactive "dance" of energies. Author Carolyn Myss believes these exist ONLY as a human projection. I disagree. For one example, electricity always existed. Science may have words or explanations for it, but first the IDEA had to exist in human consciousness, and then this energy system was in fact tapped. I believe there are many things we have not yet matured enough as a species to codify through our senses, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Every culture is immersed in a shared "celestial sea" which I believe is endowed with very specific character, or realms of thematic emphasis. Each culture takes these "raw materials" and sculpts it in a manner that resonates with its own core belief structures. This of course is my THEORY, and I welcome intelligent debate, something I can count on from you. However, there are a few here who tax my spirit in the way they look at the world, and the way they wish to have answers at a level that would arguably have to square the circle. (In other words, I'll virtually "meet" you in another forum. I am exhausted with this one!)
Actually, I would hardly deduce any such thing, though I am no logician. Nor would any logician that I know deduce any such thing.
If 2 astrological systems widely contradict each other, it does not logically follow that ALL astrological systems do not work.
As I recall, Siouxrose had some interesting personal insight from her schooldays which she posted on CD perhaps a month ago. Perhaps she or someone could re-post it.
Sioux Rose
GREG: I have posted over 2000 comments on CD. Can you give me a clue? I am unsure of the reference, but would oblige if the memory bank is properly stirred.
2 minutes later: Are you speaking about the 5th grade situation with the born bully who had the entire class punished due to a false allegation directed at me? Karl Rove's ideological offspring if ever there was one.
That sounds right. As I recall, she sounded like a master manipulator.
"sexed up" - the god of sex is also the god of death.
Humbaba
La petite morte,
The French call sex, "The Little Death".
Post coitus omnia anima trist est.
Rainborowe
"La petite mort."
(no 'e' on mort, the noun, that means death. "La morte", would mean.."the dead woman". I know, French grammar is complicated; that's why it's better to leave it alone unless you know what you are doing.)
"La petite mort", refers to orgasm.
getreal,
Boy are you funny and ironic,
After a condescending little post telling folks "French grammar is complicated," and "that's why it's better to leave it alone unless you know what you are doing."
You triumphlantly declare, "La petite mort", (sic) refers to orgasm (sic).
In those very few words you, A. screwed up the punctuation Condescending one, Oh Teacher of Grammar. The comma goes INSIDE the quotes.
And B. Hysterically, after your denigrating post, you then butcher your own grammar! "La petite mort refers to orgasm?" Does that sound right to your ear? Try this grammar teacher, it refers to "having an orgasm."
getreal
..and that ought to show you why responding to this poster is not such a great idea....
Red Rick yesterday you posted, "I got laid once in Houston." WOW! You poor thing, do you need to impress somebody? AAaawww
Well I almost died laughing. You are absolutely 100% the first person I ever heard of that got laid "once" in Houston.
Lucky for you Red Rick, Viagra is now readily available. Crawl out of your little hole to a pharmacia.
So how is PG&E? Still proud to work for the 200th biggest corporation in America while you call yourself a progressive? While you talk about nader? What a HYPOCRITE!
Nice hearing from you.
PS-Tell your masters at PG&E they/you are A*******'s for helping defeat prop 8.
Please do not stop posting such as this. It serves far better than ever I could to show what a complete ass you are.
Sioux Rose
HUMBABA: Yes, and Pluto/Hades/Scorpio upper octave of Mars is also associated with: rejuvenating, regenerating, resuscitating, remaking, remodeling, renovating, healing and rebirth. It delivers so much if persons can grant its chief mandate: that they learn to forgive trespasses, including their own.
You are right.
When my son was eleven years old, I had to take him to the hospital because of severe dysentery and vomiting. I spent the night by his hospital bed in the emergency ward. I could hear the nurses moving around beyond the cloth privacy screens beteen beds. Most of the other beds were empty. At about 2:00 a.m. a couple of nurses began chatting about sex. Apparantly they had come on shift and hadn't noticed I was there. One of them made it quite clear to the other that if a man didn't "get rough" during sex, she didn't think he was a man. She said the violence aroused her. The other wasn't so sure. But what amazed me was how calmly they spoke of violence (punching, beating, slaping, etc.) that produced real pain as an aphrodisiac. You can write all this off as coming from some disturbed nurses but that would be a cop out. What got our society here isn't the issue right now. The issue is that all this destruction of our social fabric will continue and even accelerate if we don't make an example of Bush and Cheney. We have to go there. Analyzing why Bush and Cheney are so twisted won't help. I have free will and I never tortured anyone. These torturers must go to prison even if it means imprisoning thousands of lawyers and doctors too.
i agree - society is f-cked up. however we claim to be a nation of laws, and you're absolutely correct. if necessary, 1000's of people need to go to jail. it would be a revolutionary act if this occurred, telling the world that america will acknowledge it violated basic principles endowed by it's own declaration, constitution and the judgments of it's courts (like it or not that's our declaration, our constitution and our judges - our modus operandi).
let alone america's obligation to fulfill international treaties that explicitly prohibit torture and psychological/physical abuse.
obama and congress could both cleanse their conscience by admitting complicity in these atrocities, while insisting the interrogators, architects and policy makers who approved and implemented this barbarism be imprisoned. obama promised transparency - let's see it, how can we have transparency when the american public doesn't have a full picture of how these events unfolded. who discreetly or directly said do x,y,z ? (i'm guessing cheney)>
if obama pursued this path, it would be a phenomenal step forward in restoring america's relations with countries that justifiably view us as evil. ideals like democracy are meaningless w/out substance.
i remember being in quetzaltenango (xela) guatemala during nov/dec 2000 when the theft of the white house occurred (i was out of the country, voted nader absentee). a few of my friends from holland and germany were teasing me about how serious america was about monitoring elections in the former yugoslavia, considering the shenanigans that were occurring in florida.
the world has seen our hypocrisy for centuries, it wold be a great first step to just restore habeas corpus rights as well as extending dignity, humanity and transparency of the process for people who are detained (in guantanemo, attica ar san quintin).
yes. bush/cheney/rice/rumsfeld/ashcroft/gonzalez and their minions should go to prison.
...peace...
Sioux Rose
AGG: I agree with your point, and scary story. I opened a discussion (and it's been a long one here) on the relationship between violence and pornography. Torture is a form of pornography in my view.
If you can't distinguish what happens between consenting adults, and torture, it isn't society that is the problem. Or rather, the inability to distinguish between what happens between people who CONSENT, who have FREE WILL, and TORTURE, is the problem.
And before someone starts leveling accusations, no, hurting someone else physically does not arouse me.
You speak wisely and your words are like the winds that take the scent of the prairie flowers great distances. The USA was built on the backs of women, either those that were slaves who gave birth to other slaves, or the so called 'free women'
who were and are still the very core of the "family unit".
Until American culture can accept the rightful place of all women--- in most tribal opinions this would be at minimum a 50% interest in the control--- they will have
the many problems they have now----and some they will invent. The dominate culture places women not just in a "sexual" 'context'--but in a gender context as well, more than on a more balanced context.
The USA can never live up to its potential and stake its place in history as a world leader not just of power but by example. Ther is no more powerful leadership than by example.
The story that I was told as a child, by people who had been born in the 19th century and were closer to the "old ways" than the "Christianized" tribal people after the turn of the twentieth century. They spoke of the struggle between men and women for control of decisions, and the struggle was solved---"in the old days"
The story goes like this:
"The Great Spirit created humans with equal power when making decisions about life and in particular family and cultural life. Then the men one day began to talk and say things like "we are stronger than they are, we can make them do as we wish".
Soon, this idea, a very foolish one as we who are better informed on these things, but they were not as well as informed. The men decided to take control of the women.
Well the women being very patient treated the men like children who needed a little more attention than the others and this made the men happy, for awhile. Soon however, they wanted more control over the women and began to assert themselves. The women, being very patient and loving tried very hard to reason with the men but the men would not listen. The women had no other choice but to cancel all "close activity". ( no more nookie guys)
They would not even let the men see them naked. Some of the men became angry and beat the women, but after they grew tired and went to sleep, the women would be them to teach them a lesson that even the men had to sleep sometime and were very vulnerable, by beating t-h-e-m. So this went on for awhile and when the men began to realize that they had given up something that they wanted almost more than food, and more than sleep, so they gave in. After that the tribe enjoyed complete control among the men and the women evenly. They grew in numbers and strength and wisdom. The were very powerful people until the Europeans came"-----(and screwed it all up----even for themselves)
This nation will never be 'great' or be capable of living up to its 'creed' without the major change of power and control in the decision making----evenly----between men and women.
On a more personal level, I believe that the Matriarchy should be cultivated. For the last 7-9 thousand years the Patriarchy has been a dismal failure. You would think that humans would at least learn from their mistakes---but nooooooooooooooo.
Good Luck America you really need it.
Sioux Rose
NATIVE SON: Lovely post. I like the story. I believe in its ideal, and I think some of our way distant ancestors knew how to live that way. I speak of Mars rules and it sets the premise that all are supposed to look, think, and act alike, as if there is only one chosen to the Infinite Intelligence that designed human beings and Creation, call it the Great Spirit or whatever. It's hard to imagine a world today where each person was TRULY valued, truly treasured for being who they are, not for adapting to rigid rules, taking standardized tests, being a certain gender or race or color.
The Aquarian Age is about friendship... we often give our friends more room to be who they are than we do our children or partners. Friendship is based less on roles and routines. Imagine if the all those today who fight each other as imaginary foes began to see the other as FRIEND. I know we have a LONG way to go to get to this understanding, but the price for NOT getting it soon (just as climate change enters into sped up feedback loops, I suppose a parallel evolutionary process can impact human consciousness to facilitate rising to what precarious occasions warrant) is EVERYTHING. The price for not honoring the balance is EVERYTHING... it is magnetism, the yearning of Yin for Yang and Yang for Yin that holds creation together. It's a mating dance... and that must be why reading about so much cruelty and violence, turning the birth canal into another violent "land" for plunder, has not only sickened me, but made me aware of how far along mankind has come in tearing asunder the great weave, what holds our world together. The Hindus say it's all Maya, a dream... we must be careful what dreams collective consciousness manifests through its intent and focus.
very poetic response to native son and absolutely true ('I suppose a parallel evolutionary process can impact human consciousness to facilitate rising to what precarious occasions warrant' .... 'we must be careful what dreams collective consciousness manifests through its intent and focus'.)
thank you for speaking your truth to power in your comments to these essays, i love cultural anthropology and have learned a lot from your insights. i agree we need to restore a balance that has been lost and typically women bear the burden of violence inflicted in/by our culture.
as usual your words are encouraging. i hesitate ascribing metaphysical meta-structure to the discussion, b/c i do live in the human realm and believe in humanist solutions, but i respect your opinions and interpretations. again thank you for your insights.
ps - have you seen the documentary - sex drugs and democracy ?
...peace...
Sioux Rose
IOWA: It's a pleasure receiving a polite response from you. It amazes me the way some argue for a limited view of reality. I have not seen that documentary, but Jensen's book disturbed me greatly. I emailed him and asked him to check out this thread, and also read the impassioned BEAUTIFUL realizations of the young soldier, Matthis Chiroux posted a few days ago (on CD). Now there's an EVOLVED male, the promise of what is possible when consciouenss is unleashed from enculturated constructs and free to grow!
Do you think there is really a line separating the metaphysical from the mundane structures? I think it's useful to think of overlapping levels, like increasingly less dense atmospheres all superimposed over our earth sphere. Our senses respond to the densest cues, but that does not mean the other less distinct "vibrations" are not operating. What we call genius I believe exists when someone's ordinary consciousness contacts these higher spheres. In any case, I appreciate your feedback and thoughtful responses on many topics in this forum.
(I wasn't sure if Native Son was pointing his lovely compliment at me. I am glad CD has attracted voices and perspectives like yours and his.)
I couldn't agree more. I think that would be the best thing for society that could be thought of. Put the women in charge. Absolutely! And the next thing to do would be to make a country for the Indigenous Americans in northwest U.s. And see what kind of fine environment they can build with their natural inclination, and reverence, for nature.
Females also like porn too.
And the US isn't the only country where porn is "consumed". Porn is definitely "consumed" very much in Japan. Do you see Japan engaging in torture?
What is "healthy" sexuality? When have the majority of sexual or marital relationships been accurately characterized as 'loving'? Atavastic notions dressed up in language about archetypes get no more at the heart of real exploitation than does the Edenic myth of God-made-a-helpmeet-for-Man-capital-M does.
The idea of The Feminine as such is itself fallout from the mistreatment of women. Real women don't embody The Feminine, the protector & nourisher, that men seek, and consequently, they are treated as profane creatures who betray themselves and the men who tell themselves that they would treat a "Real Woman" better than they treat women.
Amen
a stunning confirmation of a principle from the Nuremburg trials:
planning for aggressive war is the crime from which all other crimes flowed.
(maybe it's counterintuitive that the Final Solution flows from the decision to wage war, but there it is.)
an important article by rich.
WaPo, otoh, is working overtime to convince USAeanites that the current manifestation of long-standing US torture policies was devised to prevent "terrorist attacks." (see today's article by Michael Scheuer for a particular filthy example). every day, an op-ed or editorial on how "we may be squeamish about torture, b/c we are so enlightened and civilized, but it works. our squeamishness and distate prove our enlightenment. mighty white of us."
it cannot be said or emphasized enough: the current torture system was devised to justify an illegal, immoral war.
for this reason, there will be no investigation of the torture issue. it leads directly to the war issue, and homey obama don't play that.
Two wrongs do not make one right.
By looking back we are looking forward. I’m very disappointed in Obama’s stance on this obviously important problem we are faced with. Prosecuting the Bush crime family is as important to us as a country as anything we are faced with as it talks to the soul of the nation. Abolitionists didn’t give up and neither should we. We already have slavery & genocide to our detriment and I didn’t live through those. I’ll be damned if I do not raise my voice about torture. I look back at those people and wonder. I hate the thought of future generations looking back at us and wondering what the hell we were thinking.
Excellent Article. Rich is correct on all counts. Prosecute for the Iraq and Afghan Wars and torture.
Obama,you have given all the money you possible can to your bankster supportors now start enforcing the Constitution, NOW !!!
You voted for this shill.
Now the only thing you will see from Mr. Obama is his big black ass, and he expects you to kiss it.
He is coming for your Social Security, too.
Nitpick alert....
The author posits:
"In the new best seller "Columbine," the journalist Dave Cullen reaffirms that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were instead ordinary American teenagers who worked at the local pizza joint, loved their parents and were popular among their classmates."
Yet in the numerous discussions about Columbine on its anniversary date the point was made repeatedly that Harris was a psychopath and Klebold obsessed with suicide. The diaries of both were replete with evidence supporting that evaluation.
Bring America Back !!!!.......FINALLY !!, Here it is in the NY Times !!
***The very last few paragraphs here make the point: The US Torture and
Prison Camp programs were to produce 'Patsies', fall-guys imprisoned and tortured to the breaking point of confessing to 9/11---making the missing link between al qaeda and Iraq, justification for all their war mongering.
That is what it was, and what it is---right to the Kangaroo Courts of Gitmo--
where those waterboarded "masterminds" traded their confessions for the hope of martyrdom. The military industrial complex of the US are so proud of those trials, they now don't even want to go after good ol boogieman bin Laden !!
****We do need to remind Frank Rich that to get to "fair trials" we do need to establish a set of probable cause facts, indictable procedures where we can get the accused into proper courts. With MSM still avoiding the real truth of 9/11, and the new Administration obstructing ongoing investigation, getting to trial is real tough !!!!
It did not start with Torture, it started at Ground Zero, so let us encourage the 'Times" to get back to the Truth, the mother of it all , Sept 11, 2001 !!!!
Building No 7, World Trade Center, Saloman Bros Bldg is a mighty fine smoking gun to begin with !!!! LETS GO !!! Put your MSM where your words are leading !
And what if you are wrong about Building Number 7?
If that is the mother of all "truth" do you at least have proof that will stand cross examination?
Would you be willing to testify under oath as to the truth of your answers to a new investigation and if not you, why not and who would?
Jim Glover.
The Twin Towers & Builiding Seven, their "falls," violated two Laws of Physics.
1. The Law of Conservation of Energy, and
2. The Law of Conservation of Momentum. Both these state the rate of descent of the upper floors should have been slowed while falling through the scores & scores of undamaged lower floors, UNLESS-
There was Zero resistance, zero structural integrity in the bottom half of the towers, and in WTC7 from the top to the bottom.
The only way to say the visual evidence does not violate the Laws of Physics is that the buildings were dropped via controlled demolitions, placed charges blowing out the lower floors as the upper floors fell through them.
That is PROVEN, by the laws of physics.
Most Cordially, joseph cotton.
Note-what did 9-11 cause? War in Iraq. Who wanted that? Israel/PNAC-close to the same thing. But it's JUST coincidence that the same people motivated to cause 9-11 and with the ability, were set up ahead of time to film and celebrate the Impacts? Yeah, right. Means. Motive. Opportunity.
The 5-Dancing Israelis. One went on a talk show in Israel and said the "were just documenting" 9-11. Gee, bro, could you have maybe called the cops, saved 3,000 American lives instead of setting up cameras for your effing party???
Building Seven's back side was torn away from one of the towers falling debris on it when it went. When structures fail they will fall... another law of physics (gravity)... it did not fail.
structural steel begins to fail when it reaches only 1000 degrees
So your claim of violation of the laws of physics is not true. When big Jet airliners hit tall buildings, strange things like this happen.
Why distract from a torture investigation when we have evidence and confessions and blow the whole issue of Illegal war and torture with bringing up these half truths that prove nothing and as such ruin a now provable case against Bush/Cheney?
If I was to defend Bush I would start out with giving the Truthers all the time they want so that the prosecution would start of with sensational opinions that can not be backed up with proof...which would get Bush off the hook in any trial or investigation.
But if you are planning on testifying about this Mother of truths, I recommend first reading what you will have to overcome with Legal proof or else you will be screwing up a real investigation and learn about free fall, and building seven and more. http://www.debunking911.com/
Now the Dancing Israelis and the fact that Atta had training at a flight school in Florida with cash from Pakistan, at an airport where he needed security clearance are facts among others that would need to be investigated. but since most truthers don't even believe that pilots were involved, You will only ruin a good case against Torture and a possible inside job of another kind... the real inside job.
I saw the two towers fall and they clearly fell from the top with the top floors cascading into the lower floors as they fell. If it was a demolition job then the towers would have had to fall beginning with the bottom floors, giving that effect of the whole building sinking into a dust cloud at ground level. The WTC buildings were built on the cheap with an exoskeletal frame. They were just weak buildings. That's not to say there wasn't a conspiracy involved, since it's never been explained to me where the plane debris was from the plane that was supposed to have crashed into the field in Pennsylvania.
"The WTC buildings were built on the cheap with an exoskeletal frame."
so why all the stress on the "fact" that the planes severed the CORE columns?
do a google image search and check out the size of these central cores.
The debris was found....
http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html
Another myth.
You call that debris? Please? Where are the Titanium engines? Seats? And that's only flight 93. Where are the videos from the Pentagon...80 some odd videos? What have you to lose by checking these sites and the facts? What illusion are you holding to? Good to keep an open mind when it comes to this past administration...anything was possible...
Try this on for size.....
http://www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/Collateral_Damage_911.pdf
Yes what do you expect to find? the plane was almost in a nose dive... even in World war 11 planes were blown to smithereens... but debris is debris no-matter how damaged.
Titanium engines to not vaporize unless there is enough heat to cause such. Kerosene MAY burn at 500 degrees...far from the 4000 or so degrees needed to melt Titanium. And disappear Titanium?..well, that's got to be something that generates a hell of a lot more heat...
World War 11?...Oh, you mean II....WW II fighters compared to the enormity of today's passenger planes? You may need a better analogy.
The bigger and faster the impact the more blown up into little pieces of debris.
Even in World War 2.
Yes I call it debris.
When a plane hits the ground steeply at over 500 mph, I would not expect to find much of it just like there wasn't much left after the planes hit the towers.
But lets Say Cheney Did have it shot down, Does that prove a Demolition?
Now if there was some cleanup before the photos, I don't know but at a steep angle nose dive, there wouldn't be too much to show on the news and the news usually censors lots of raw evidence. I saw a jet fighter hit a wall and it was completely blown to tiny pieces.
One of the engines you can see in the photo had to be dug up.
I've attended a crash site of a Cessna that had more crash debris than that. And why are the government photos so out of focus? The ground appears quite rocky, which would lead any thinking person to believe that the suitcases and body parts would have been strewn all around, not to mention the fuselage and wings. If that is the best the government can provide, then I'm inclined to think that the plane has been dismantled for parts or that the serial numbers have been changed and it is being used by the CIA to run guns and drugs somewhere. And that the government knew in advance that the attack on 911 was going to happen and instead of trying to prevent it they took advantage of the situation and eliminated a bunch of people who were not willing to go along with the "new world order". And that all those people must be buried under a parking lot somewhere, like what they did to Chandra Levy to keep her from telling her mom what was happening in the world that was so incredible that she couldn't relate it over the phone.
No, some building demolitions use the reverse direction, top to bottom.
The WTC building were actually NOT "built on the cheap", although because it was the 70s it was cheaper than today.
The original Structural Engineer explained that the design actually was from 20 to 100 times the required forces, even including 707 airplanes.
Actually, WTC "exoskeletal frame."construction was novel at that time, but soon became one of the most popular and well used safe approaches, even today.
Namaste
I recommend David Ray Griffin's book.."Debunking the Debunkers". I also recommend the 911blogger.com which will lead you to many other sites....if you are interested in facts and not the governments cover-up. You may obtain some free videos from the 911dvdproject.com.
Incidentally, how do you explain the nano particles of thermite found in the dust at the WTC...verified by international scientists? Explosions in WTC 1 and 2 prior to the planes hitting? Explosions and dead bodies in WTC 7 BEFORE the other towers collapsed? ...all verified by eye witnesses and seismographs? Where are the EIGHT titanium engines from these planes? Two planes hitting the WTC towers do not explain thousands of tons of concrete turned to dust. Is it not interesting that in the history of mankind, that a steel structured building has never collapsed from fire before or since 9/11/01? Never!
9/11 truth is at the foundation of it all! This horrendous LIE is where it started.
Demand a new investigation. Do not let these murderers sweep this under the rug of time as they did the assassination of JFK.
What is there to lose with a legitimate re-investigation of 9/11?
Explaining the contents of the rubble is a secondary postulate. When they built the actual buildings they were pressured to save money so the early design was abandoned in favor of the hundreds of millions dollar cheaper design that they actually used. When the top floors began to pancake they burst the bolts holding the lower floors to the framework and the exoskelatal frame was forced outward, floor by floor, at an accelerated rate. Everyone who watched the towers fall could plainly see that the bottom of the towers were intact as the top part came down.
The buildings were used by the Nsa, the Dia, Cia, and a bunch of other related agencies and who knows what those kind of trash would have stored there. The attackers didn't choose the target simply because it was tall and U.s.
there you go again with your exoskelatal fantasy.
yes, these buildings were built on the cheap.
new city regulations meant that a re-fit of the towers would have been more expensive than what they were worth.
this is why they had to come down.
do yourself a favour and read some Griffin, as AngryOldDude suggests.
start with The New Pearl Harbor and don't stop till you see sense..
Examining the contents of the rubble shoud have been part of a crime scene investigation that was never carried out. As a result, residents nearby sent in dust samples to various researchers.
I watched them build that trade center and believe me, from a laymans point of view, they were built to withstand many planes hitting the building. Have you forgotten the massive 47 innner beams?
Please do some research, other than reading the Popular Mechanics explanation, if that is your only source. I've cited some good resources above. If you challenge any of the facts on these sites, join the forums and kick around your ideas.
Why were these buildings chosen? Because they were "weak"?...Here's what appears to be the motive behind the choice and the choice of that particular part of the Pentagon.
http://www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/Collateral_Damage_911.pdf
Even NIST's own report demolishes those undocumented assertions.
There is actually some truth in the investigations.
Just as interesting that none of these steel structured buildings you mentioned were not fatally weakened before the fire from the Jet airliners.
Why do you not mention that?
Your logic is flawed by leaving out that important fact.
You have been deceived by a bunch of charlatans.
Prove that thermite was found! Thermite burns up once it starts and does not go out.
The thermite lies were also proven because the collums said to be cut by thermite were cut by torches during cleanup.
Hey buddy, how's your wife and my kids?
How do you know?
Have you checked the DNA?
Anyone can play that stupid game. And remember, waterboarding has not been conclusively, irretrievably, absolutely and definitely, for sure, cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye proven to produce pain or suffering. There are so many nerve endings in the human body that we just can't really tell which ones are driving the drowning dude nuts with fear. Hell, we don't know if it's fear or he's just having an orgasm. The torturers certainly were getting their rocks off a lot of times so waterboarding may have some redeeming sexual therapy role in YOUR future, pal.
You are a liar.
Call me what you want because You are the one with no proof of Demolition.
It's difficult to examine a crime scene when it has been illegally tampered with and destroyed. Once again, several scientists here and abroad have examined dust samples and found nano particles of Thermite in every sample. Now, can YOU explain that? Can YOU explain why hundreds of thousands of pounds of concrete were turned to dust by kerosene? Can YOU explain why these are the only steel buildings to have collapsed from fire in all of the history of mankind.....and three in one day. Can YOU explain why the FBI will not release the videos of the planes hitting the Pentagon. Can YOU explain why pilots with many years of experience have said that the maneuver into the Pentagon was virtually impossible for a pilot who could not even fly a Cessna. Can YOU explain why they would crash a plane into the least populated section of the Pentagon that was under construction? Can YOU explain why Cheney did not give orders to shoot down the plane headed for the Pentagon? Can YOU explain why there are NO skid marks on the lawn in front of the Pentagon? Can You explain why all the crime scenes were compromised? Can YOU explain why WTC 7 collapsed, not having been hit by any planes, and Silverstein said "pull it"? Can YOU explain why witnesses heard explosions in WTC 7 prior to the collapse of the other towers and walked over dead bodies? Can YOU explain why there are witnesses to the fact that there were explosions in the basements of the towers and witnesses aided people who were horribly burned? Can YOU explain why the BBC announced the collapse of WTC 7 twenty minutes before it happened?
"why hundreds of thousands of pounds of concrete were turned to dust by kerosene?"
Exactly, the nano-thermite explosives were quite capable of pulverizing all of the concrete, while airplane's kerosene fire with gravity collapse would absolutely NOT have made but a little dust, with lots of huge chunks of concrete like seen in usual demolitions.
Making powder out of reinforced concrete takes massive amounts of energy, that are not available in a gravity only collapse.
Namaste