fedayeen, pissing off the Americans who post here is not the way to get attention. Any "considered intelligent points" you made got lost behind your holier than thou attitude. The Americans who frequent this site are (usually) the ones trying to make a difference. Making us feel like dog shit because we are stuck with a runaway government isn't going to make the situation any better. Do you think I voted for Bush? Do you think reminding me that I'm facing the nearly impossible task of rousing my countrymen is going to strengthen my resolve? I have enough government officials and giant corportions to be pissed at already, I don't need someone like you diverting my ire from the people who deserve it most.

They're fighting because they're ignoramuses. Most of them probably are too backward to hold a normal job; even fewer will be functional when they return.

"I'm here to support our soldiers," said Beverly Perlson, founder of the group Band of Mothers.

There are a hundred and sixty thousand soldiers in Iraq because they don't know any better. They are criminals. They're in violation of a lot of laws, U.S. and international. They have killed 1.3 million Iraqis with whom I had no quarrel.

"They want to see us lose. I don't understand this," Perlson said, after a heated exchange with CODEPINK supporters.

Really? Who is killing them? Is it me who is killing the soldiers with my lousy attitude? Or is it the pro-war, pro-Bush crowd with their mindless "support the troops" mantra? That's what sent them there. My advice to them was to never go to Iraq. But now that they're there, I hope they decide to stay there. Maybe they could try the French Foreign Legion next. I really prefer that they not return. They'll only become cops and employees of Homeland Security - nut cases with guns.

Kate Anne: amacd was being sarcastic.

"An issue frequently raised by protesters was $650,000 raised by CODEPINK for humanitarian aid in Iraq. Protesters maintain the money made its way to Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah. Benjamin said the donations were used for medicine and goods given to Fallujah refugees, especially women and children."

Why has no one yet pointed out the extreme danger posed by these allegations not only to Medea Benjamin herself, but to everyone who has contributed anything to the organization or donated any of the $650,000 in humanitarian aid raised by Code Pink? Under the recent Bush proclamation, anyone found to be aiding the insurgents in Iraq or harming the American effort there IS SUBJECT TO HAVING THEIR ASSETS SEIZED WITHOUT NOTICE AND IS ALSO SUBJECT TO BEING JAILED AS A TRAITOR! This includes not only the head of the organization but ANYONE WHO HAS EVER DONATED TO IT, WHETHER OR NOT THEY KNEW THE MONEY "WAS GOING TO AID INSURGENTS IN FALLUJAH".

For God's sake people, WAKE UP!! This is exactly the kind of scenario that should worry us: that the Bush gvmt. will use this new policy in order to confiscate the property of anti-war protesters, lock them up and throw away the key! And yet no one has mentioned it, unless I somehow blew right by the posting.

What do you think?

Make these prowar fools view tapes and videos of the thousands of Iraqi children andf families who have been murdered. Force these fools to frequent and tour VA hospitals and make these deluded bigots take a tour of Iraq on the ground. Any woman who lionizes war is not just a fool but one who lacks not only brains but a heart. Freedom for Iraq, my ass. More civilians have been murdered in this illegal war than in WWI and WWII and Vietnam. Any woman who joins the military and then brags about her stars and etc. is a disgrace to womanhood.

"Guys over there are fighting for the freedoms we have here."

That's the delusion too many Americans hold tightly to their chests to justify the invasion and occupation. The statement is full of slogans and empty of substance.

Finding common ground is the result of seeking it. It tends to be found whenever it is honestly sought. Both groups are meeting instances of betrayal of principles, the rule of law, among other concerns. There is no glory, victory or defeat, these are terms mired in conflict dependent on conflict. There is the possibility of looking each other in the eye and seeking common ground in dignity for all.

I think the theory of cognitive dissonance applies here. People who sacrifice so much need to believe the sacrifice was worth it. For example, a mother who loses a son has a strong need to believe he died for something greater than life itself: freedom, decency, democracy, etc... Cindy Sheehan is rather exceptional and someone I deeply admire. If people are interested in finding the common ground, they should start by listening to her, and start questioning the rationality of the authority that presses the need for perpetual war.

"Guys over there are fighting for the freedoms we have here." Eh?

I think it is the guys and gals right here that are fighting for our freedoms.

Constant brainwashing by the corporate media will take us all to our graves.

Yeah,

"Guys over there are fighting for the freedoms we have here."

Then ther the traditional:

"They are fighting for your freedom to criticise them" (implying: "so stop criticising them")

Delusion is an understatement for these remarks! It is a uniquely USAn mass-madness.

It is embarassing to have to point such an obvious thing out, but there is absolutely none, zero, zltch, of a causual, logical, or any other kind of connection, between invading, occupying and murdering another people in a far off land land and my "freedom", the Bill of Rights, or any other such thing!

Demonstrating in support of the War, and condemning Codepink are two very different issues. The latter suggests a dangerous tilt. People who hate others for their efforts for peace are likely to escalate to physical violence. The radical right feels enabled today to destroy whatever lies in their way on their march to power. The failure to prosecute the high profile lawbreakers suggests that low level lawbreakers can act with impunity.

It sounds to me like OIF veterans and occupation forces have yet another mission: to protect those who continue to battle on their side to to bring their colleagues home.

Pro-War protestors? What is this world coming to when people are for War! You can label all these organizations with Patriotic phrases such as "Band of Mothers" and "Gathering of Eagles", but it after their gone only two things remain, the crap that came out of both orifaces!

The "freedom isn't free" stickers you see on cars all over the place just demonstrates to me that the drivers of those vehicles have just turned their brains off. Exactly what freedom's are we talking about? You mean the fourth amendment freedom against unreasonable searches and seizures that the Bush Administration has trashed? Is that the one? How about freedom of speech and assembly? You know, are soldiers dying in Iraq so peaceful protesters can be pepper sprayed and "Tasered" and you can exercise your freedom to speak in a "free speech zone" whenever the Dear Leader Bush gives a speech? How about the freedom to show up with a t-shirt at one of these "Republican" events and to be forceably removed by private goons. How about those freedoms? Don't make me laugh.

On the heels of revelations about Pentagon Propaganda aimed at citizens of the U.S., we have a sudden public relations campaign to make it appear that there is substantial active support in the U.S. for the war.

On Sunday our local paper contained a piece in the Op-Ed section by Katie Dyer, "a former anchor for Fox news in Eugene...the founder of Heros at Home LLC...which helps deployed soldiers stay connected to their loved ones at home." The piece argued for (surprise!) continuing the war so that the sacrifices we've already made will matter. The ex-Fox anchor, the wife of a National Guardsman stationed in Afghanistan, write that she watches peace rallies through "...angry tears." She also relates a story where, last year, as she and her husband left a military ball they had to walk through a dozen female anti-war protestors "lining both sides of the sidewalk." She writes that one of the protestors whispered, "You'll join us when your husband dies," as she passed by.

I'm surprised she didn't claim they spit on her.

I would bet that if you looked into the funding of "Band of Mothers", "Gathering of Eagles" and "Heros at Home" you'd find the same kinds of right-wingers as those who financed the swiftboat vets.

They're trying to make the occupations look popular. I've been to a few anti-war protests recently. In stark contrast to demonstrations in years past, the vast majority of people passing nodded, flashed peace signs, honked. And this was out in the countryside where most voters are Republicans.

The polls show support for the occupations has dropped substantially. A CNN poll conducted in March showed 60% of Americans want to "Set a timetable for removing troops and stick to it regardless of what is going on in Iraq."

The right wing and Bush are, once again, presenting a fantasy world where they're succeeding. And the MSM is going along with it.

Pro war protestors should be going to iraq. They support the war--they can be drivers and cleaners. There are lots of jobs they can do in Iraq.

Soldiers dont support freedom.

Each side claims to have the moral authority--German soldiers in ww 2 had the exact same rationale as American soldiers today(except I believe german soldiers were in greater danger of being shot as a traitor).

The pro war idiots should just go to Iraq.
Put up or shut up.

Okay, full disclosure--I think Medea Benjamin and the Code Pink ladies are 100% patriotic Americans in the finest tradition. I also like their nerve and determination to infiltrate congressional and senatorial hearings and not allow "business as usual".

All that being said, the "protesters" in this story don't know what they are talking about. I have never heard Medea or Code Pink criticize the men and women of the military. I have heard them severely criticize its civillian leadership from the Pentagon to the White House for their lying, imperialistic, and, may I say, unpatriotic behavior.

As for those who think that Code Pink is "pro-defeat" instead of "pro-victory" please explain more exactly your definition of "defeat" and "victory". Even many in the highest ranks of military leadership over the past 6-7 years have complained of unclear goals and "mission creep" being foisated off on the military in this whole affair.

That's why so many combat veterans have formed Iraq veterans against the war and the American public has given Bush the lowsest presidential approval rating since Harry Truman (who was also stuck in the midst of a vague and open-ended war).

Poet: Excellent! Perfecto!

America – Same shit – different war. If I live another thirty years I can write this again if America is still around. Protest is patriotic for it displays the Founders' backbone and spirit to correct what is wrong. Pro war demonstrators are so misguided that it's a shame. That coupled with the fact that their loved ones are being used as fodder is enough to have one find compassion for their collective dumb ass. They could be writing their representatives, local media and their people overseas in support of troop benefits and proper armor instead of wasting their time protesting in support of a horrible war because there are those among us that wish to end it. They could be protesting the treatment of their own but they seem to find it easier to demonize others than to expect their historically dishonest government to do better for American's armed forces personnel. It's not hard to imagine their ancestors hanging a witch or beating a slave. It's hard to imagine them any other way yet they are American's too. Pity…

"Guys over there are fighting for the freedoms we have here."

Yes, the freedom to assail someone's postion that differs from their own, and destroy them through guilt by association, i.e. Barack and Rev. Wright.

The freedom to create a fascist state and move the distributed wealth of the middle class to the top 2%.

The freedom to ignore the constitution and create laws like W's signing statements.

The freedom to torture.

The freedom to spend hundreds of billions on war machinery, while abandoning the commons that we all depend upon.

The freedom to fill our govt agencies with incompetent cronies who move in from the very industries they are supposed to be overseeing.

The freedom to write what I am writing now, for how long? before the mind shapers come 'round and take me off to an indoctrination camp.

How much longer freedom? How our forefathers must be shouting from their graves.

Medea is a hero, plain and simple.

That some people prefer to think other people's thoughts, is one of the main reasons that we elect mass murderers because they are "pro-life". We install dictators to promote democracy, and destroy our freedoms in order to protect them.

These pro-war people who saturate their minds with the likes of O'Reilly, Hannity, Michael Savage, Limbaugh, the false clergy in the Christian funDUMBentalist sects, and Fox "faux" News are the willful ignorant. Hitler had his "followers" right to the end. Yes Amos, it is a pity.

glenn goodman: You're certainly right!

Go to 'Band of Mothers' website and notice how many times the word 'warrior' is used. Same terminology so often used by Religious Right and Christian Zionists! The connections are easy to follow for any who care to see.

Also, the claims that anti-war protestors have denigrated the troops is bull----. The anti-war folks have been totally circumspect in NOT casting negatives on the troops - another fantasy the rightwing loonies have to fictionalize to give their movement any emotional strength at all - because logic or intelligence sure as hell won't give such strength to them.

The Peace / Progressive Movements better get their acts together folks. This moral anomoly that calls itself 'pro-war' is still a vocal, ignorant, albeit well-financed minority - but they will gain strength if the peace activists don't come together and apply real political pressure - AT EVERY LEVEL.

We are closer to losing this country than at anytime in our history - writing here is fine for engaging entertainment and enlightenment - but it will no longer suffice.

Tiberius Bond said, "Constant brainwashing by the corporate media will take us all to our graves."

And you can lump in The Daily Show with Jon Stewart with the corporate media. This show has often gone out of its way to vilify CODEPINK. The show even has a public affairs officer of the Marines, Major Rob Riggle, on staff as a comedian who makes it his job as correspondent to put CODEPINK in a bad light.
http://www.rothtalent.com/speakers/slist/Riggle

Another similarity with Vietnam.
This continual military aggression in Iraq is not whole-heartedly supported by the American citizenry.
Instead, it rends the nation apart.
The longer this goes on, the more the USA tears itself apart.

18 people get together, and this bit of the corporate news hurries out reporters to make sure their story gets told.

Anyone want to check to see how they covered the last round of anti-war protests with tens of thousands of Americans out protesting?

Note also how Medea Benjaman came to her town to speak, and this local paper managed to completely avoid telling its readers what she had to say. Interesting propaganda technique. They try to tell their readers not to listen to Medea, nor pay any attention to what she says ... but they use these anti-american (anti-free speech IS anti-American) protestors to deliver the message.

Freedom isn't free. Our forefathers had to fight for our American freedoms. Because there are always authoritarian forces that will hate any freedom. They want people to be their slaves and to be press-ganged into being their soldiers. There are always forces that want power and wealth, and the only way to get it is to steal it from others. And you certainly can't have those others being 'free' to organize to try to stop that.

Freedom isn't free. Freedom is never given to you by the powerful. The history of the world is that people always have to fight to be free.

Of course, the same people who push those 'Freedom isn't free' stickers would be outraged if Americans started fighting to regain their freedoms.

The Daily Show is often too complex for simple minds.

If the ex-Marine public affairs officer looks like an idiot while attacking Code Pink, maybe they've taught a few people to look a little closer at the current public affairs officers when they get on TV.

Humor and satire can be powerful weapons. Perhaps the most powerful.

Think what a wonderful world it would be if a public affairs officer stepped to the Pentagon podium and almost all of American just broke up laughing at the absurdity of what he's saying.

"Soldiers dont support freedom."

The founders of this country understood that a permanent standing military was the greatest possible threat to freedom.

Gathering of Vultures

Why dont they counter protest Code Pink by enlisting to fight? I might take them seriously then.

Put their asses where their mouths are, instead of putting their mouths where their asses are.

why does American "freedom" from imaginary enemies (Iraq) always trump foreigners freedom from American tyranny?

Freddom must be universal, or it just becomes a slogan to disguise American Imperialism

"An issue frequently raised by protesters was $650,000 raised by CODEPINK for humanitarian aid in Iraq. Protesters maintain the money made its way to Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah."

I wonder how much of the "aid" earmarked for the puppet government has also ended up in insurgent hands.

One of tht titles the author of this puff piece missed for Ms. Benjamin is; Democrat. Over the last four years the antiwar movement has trundled along ineffectively in no small part because of people like Ms. Benjamin's tacit support for the Democrats.

I believe actual antiwar protestors have pied Ms. Benjamin for being a sell out to the Democrats. And I think after eight years of Cheney/Bush, it's clear to everyone Democrats can not be believed, nor trusted. They're spineless.

"Some 18 people from groups that oppose anti-war protests as "anti-American" hoisted signs condemning CODEPINK as supporting terrorism."
I seem to remember days when we (the commie pinkos) could do better than 18 people at a demonstration - say 100,000!!

Maybe the Right Wing could do better if "Dancing with the Stars" got cancelled.

"are not just "anti-victory," they are "pro-defeat.""

So that's what it comes down to for most Americans hey... Victory at all costs... regardless of the death and destruction inflicted on others by the USA. I've come to the conclusion that there's something seriously wrong with American culture.

Do eagles really gather together? If they did, what would be the results upon their immediate environment?

I am a vet, and spoke out vociferously in ranks against the US war in Viet Nam, and twenty years later I was giving a speech at Venice Beach, when an intoxicated Viet Nam vet challenged me saying, I would not be able to speak had he not fought for it in Viet Nam.

I disagreed and said, "We lost that war, and they never posed a threat to our freedoms. This is true today as it was in Yugoslavia, Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, Somalia, etc.

The only treats I have gotten are from rightwingers and cops, who tried to bully me and did not. So never take that crap that the US military is fighting to preserve our freedom. We fear them shooting us actually!

I dislike Jon Steward, he had Kissinger and Albright on and kissed their asses completely, I do not watch TV, and that was years ago at a girlfriends house who did.

I was in the audience of Lenny Bruce in San Francisco when he asked for a show of hands of the Europeans in the room. About a third raised their hands. Lenny said, "I was in the navy in world war two, and went to Europe, and I don't ever want you to forget, that we tried to fuck your mother for a candy bar."

I had just gotten back from a year in Korea and could relate to that deeply. There are no heroes in war, just victims begetting victims, for other people's profits!

"Love Your Freedom? Thank a Vet!"

Good bumper sticker, but after the battle of Yorktown, we've owed more of our freedom to the courage of reformers and lawyers than to the courage of soldiers.

I have the highest respect for the soldier's contribution to national service.

But the "Freedom" Bush/Cheney speaks of is the freedom of U.S. banks and corporation to do business anywhere in the world on the terms they choose... not my freedom.

"Anti-War Protester Sinks to New Low
Friday, April 25, 2008
Low Blow

An anti-war protester was arrested Tuesday in New York after he punched a teenaged Bush supporter who is confined to a wheelchair.

The New York Post reports 22-year-old German Talis was shouting obscenities at first lady Laura Bush and daughter Jenna as they were leaving a promotion for their children's book. John and Wendy Lovetro and their daughter had been in the audience, and John told the protester to shut up — saying the appearance was about the children's book.

The Post says Talis then began hitting 18-year-old Maureen Lovetro, who has cerebral palsy. Talis struck her on the shoulders and the legs before John Lovetro fought him off. Police charged Talis with assault and resisting arrest. Maureen was not seriously hurt."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352666,00.html

According to the group, "We Are Change", in which 'German'/Gary Talis is a member, "Our first priority is the criminal defense of Gary Talis, now facing trumped up and completely libel 3rd degree assault charges. Additionally, those individuals and/or organizations who willingly submit falsified testimony must be litigated in civil court for libel, slander, defamation of character, etc." According to the group, the girls father assaulted Talis and Talis didn't assault anyone.

Condensed from the novel, Homefront:

"He died for us all," she told reporters.

Carolyn Thompson - mother of Aaron Thompson, one of the first American soldiers killed in the assault against Iraq - she said, "He died for each and every one us." She stood beside her husband on the front porch, speaking to reporters massed on the lawn.

"He died for all of us."

But beneath the disaster that was the loss of her son and the wreck that was her heart, Carolyn had begun to wonder whether or not she was right.

Maybe, in fact, her son had died because of all of us, not for.

And maybe the battle in Iraq was not "worth the fighting for," after all, Carolyn worried. Maybe it was even wrong. She did not know much about the conflict, in fact. She knew what she had been told, what she had heard. She wished now that she knew more. She wished she had known enough to know more. She wondered if she should have. She had thought she was well informed, as much as a normal person like herself might be. At least, she had thought she was normal. Now she wondered. About a lot of things. She wondered what normal was. Or what it should be.

The President of the United States and the Congress of the United States believed the battle was worth the fighting for. The famous Senator and former war prisoner John McCain even had a recent book titled with those very words Worth the Fighting For - she had seen it lying on her neighbor's coffee table - it was supposed to be a famous literary quote from the author Ernest Hemingway. And all the media she had seen and listened to repeated what the President and Congress said in one form or another, and the media drew on a lot of experts who said a lot more in support besides. Plenty of generals and other commentators on TV and radio said the same thing mainly, the newspapers too, that the battle was worth the fighting for.

Then with Aaron overseas she had begun to follow the conflict and the media more closely. News headlines and sound bytes - her head was full of these. National defense. Humanitarian mission. Liberation of the Iraqis. No matter the setbacks, never mind the risks, the battle, fatal as it might be for many, was worth it. It was immoral not to fight. It was too risky not to fight. It was worth going in, staying in, finishing. Necessary work. Democracy and peace for the Middle East. Protection from terrorism against the United States. Fight them over there, or fight them over here. Protection from weapons of mass destruction. This is what she heard. Now her son was dead.

And did he die for us? Or because of us?

http://apragmaticpolicy.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/worth-the-fighting-for/

No one in Iraq is fighting for our freedom. They are fighting for oil, corporate greed, and the Israeli lobby. Code Pink has been very good at pointing this out and this is very painful for most Americans to confront. Americans would rather chant naieve sloganas and try to remain in their delusion that we are somehow helping the Iraqi people and will someday "win" something there. When you have lost your moral compass, bankrupted your country, and 70% of those occupied want you to leave, then you should get out.

Support online freedom of speech by asking your Representative to support H.R. 275, the Global Online Freedom Act.

In April 2004, the Chinese journalist Shi Tao used his Yahoo! email account to send a message to a U.S.-based pro-democracy website. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison for "illegally providing state secrets to foreign entities." Disturbingly, Yahoo! provided information to the government for his prosecution.

War is peace.

Slavery is freedom.

Democracy defends free speech.

I think Orwell nailed our dystopian future all too well...

Any CDers within range of San Francisco should try to show solidarity with these folks on May 1.
This is the event our fellow CDer peaceman has been talking about.

Think of it - a slap at Pelosi in her own back yard.

I wonder why CindyBabe has not mentioned it hmmmmm?

Clash ahead over longshore union war protest
George Raine, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, April 26, 2008

Members of the International Longshore & Warehouse Union are proceeding with plans for a work stoppage at 29 West Coast ports on May 1 to protest the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the fact that union leadership has withdrawn its request to waterfront employers that they accommodate closure of the ports.

Planning for the protest began in February when the Longshore Caucus, the highest decision-making body for the 25,000 members of the longshore division within the ILWU, overwhelmingly approved a resolution in support of a day of protest.

…… for remainder see:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/26/BUC610C2HA.DTL&hw=longshore&sn=001&sc=1000

If you think that our guys are fighting for our freedom's in Irac,you need to look at how we got there.Were there for oil.our guy's &girl's are dieing,so bush & buddies can make a buck,everything that moran has said is a lie.To those who think we are fighting for our freedom's, Look how that's working out for us,Look how many of our freedom's have been taken away,and now if you don't agree with the government,your a TERRORIST. If you have a fight with your wife or husband,that's a terrorist act ,wake up people before it's to late. I don't want to say i told you so,I want us all to stick togather,and MAKE our government work for us (we the people)

P.S.

Cindy's reply:

cindysheehan April 28th, 2008 7:08 pm

Why haven't I mentioned it?
I have written a letter of solidarity to ILWU and I will be there to speak and march with my brothers and sisters.

Am I the CindyBabe you mention, Janelly?

Love
Cindy

"One can't say that all conservatives are stupid people, but one can say that all stupid people are conservatives".

John Stewart Mill

"'I'm here to support our soldiers,' said Beverly Perlson, founder of Band of Mothers..."

Could someone please explain to me what the HELL that means??? The pro-war ignorati are conspicuously NOT among those working to improve VA hospitals, veterans' benefits, assistance to soldiers' families, or (least of all) bring soldiers home. They are not interested in preventing needless deaths or atrocities by ending the war. What exactly are they "supporting" other than continued murder and mayhem (and the "freedom" to "think" only in buzzwords and slogans)?

"As far as war goes, I hate war," said Fuller, who drove from Ludlow, Mass., for the rally. "Guys over there are fighting for the freedoms we have here. I feel sorry for them. I know what they're going through. There's no glory."

Fuller seems disingenuous or brianwashed. Bush sent the military into Iraq to disarm Saddam of WMDs, so he said. And Saddam took part in 911. Saddam broke UN resolutions. He gassed his own people. Where did Fuller get: "Guys over there are fighting for the freedoms we have hwre." That's Bull droppings.

The slogan "War on Terror" has now become a "War of terror." After five years of carnage in Iraq, how could anyone other than a harden criminal tacitly, or otherwise, support this occupation?