Bush Commits Troops to Iraq For The long Term
· Deal to provide mandate for military beyond 2008· US oil companies likely to benefit from proposals
The Bush administration formally committed America yesterday to a long-term military presence in Iraq, pledging to protect the government in Baghdad from internal coup plots and foreign enemies.
The cooperation pact, endorsed by George Bush and the Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, during a video conference yesterday morning, will set the agenda for a future American relationship with Iraq, the administration's adviser on Iraq and Afghanistan, General Douglas Lute, told reporters at the White House.
"The two negotiating teams, Iraq and the United States, now have a common sheet of music with which to begin the negotiations," Lute said.
The military, economic and diplomatic agreement would commit US forces to defending the government of Iraq from internal and external threats as well as fighting al-Qaida and "all other outlaw groups regardless of affiliation", according to the declaration of principles released by the White House yesterday.
In return, Iraq pledged itself to "encouraging the flow of foreign investments to Iraq, especially American investments, to contribute to the reconstruction and rebuilding of Iraq". The promise was immediately seen as a potential bonanza for American oil companies.
Lute offered few details on the scale of future US troop levels in Iraq or permanent US bases. He noted that the agreement, because it was not a treaty, would not be subject to oversight by Congress. "What US troops are doing, how many troops are required to do that, are bases required, which partners will join them - all these things are on the table," he said.
Yesterday's agreement was announced as Maliki indicated he intended to seek the renewal of the UN security council mandate for Iraq for one more year when it expires in December. The agreement has been in the works since last August, when the Maliki government officially requested the long-term strategic relationship with Washington.
The public unveiling of the proposed arrangement yesterday arrived at a time when the administration has been trying to showcase recent improvements in security in Iraq following the deployment of an additional 30,000 US troops at the beginning of the year.
Some of those forces are scheduled to begin leaving Iraq by the end of this year following the drop in violence. The rest are due to be withdrawn by the summer of 2008, although there has been little sign of the political reconciliation which was the main objective of the surge strategy.
Instead, the administration yesterday appeared to be urging Americans to look to American and Iraqi negotiators' hopes of producing a broader agreement on their partnership next summer.
The timetable for negotiations indicated by Lute would see the state department open negotiations early next year. That all but ensures that Iraq will dominate next year's US presidential elections.
© 2007 The Guardian
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153 Comments so far
Show AllIts not your opinions that bother me. But I do think we should refrain from name calling. Regardless, I'am off this topic, but I'm sure we will chat down the road. See ya!
Ahhh don't let my opinions bother you IMAGINEUSA, this is fun. I read em all, you should hear what I've been called on some threads. Besides considering what you wrote in total ignoranc, hairbrained nitwit is a compliment.
BTW, the last guy who was convicted of that crime, got 20 years and a $20,000 fine. I doubt you went toooo far here, but too close maybe. Be careful,___ most understand your frustrations. It all began with Malfoyd advocating we Americans revolt and get our hands bloody. Later he backed off and claimed he didn't write any such thing and said I wasn't the one he should be talking to. Foreigners are not exempt from that law either. ___Have fun, I don't dislike you, I just disagree with you on this issue. Heck my wife and I disagree on subjects and we sleep togeather, have for 52 years.
Kem Patrick, I love it. HAIRBRAINED NITWIT! Chill man, we're all just exchanging our thoughts here. If my comments are going to upset you, I won't respond to your post anymore.
He don't listen to crouched, respectful comments, they didn't work. __ he can hear the rude insulting truth.
I don't know exactly why people aren't standing up. It's probally not a single reason. I will say though, as Kem Pat said, you were a bit more about the getting your hands bloody yesterday. But Kem Pat shouldn't be so insulting. I agreed with about eveything he's said until now.
Don't let me get the last word here before this string is buried in the archives limey. Speak up, write something articulate and full of your intelligent 'wisdom'.
How come you guys still drive on the wrong side of the street? I bet it's those kidney pies and fish and chips you all love. Those kidneys are full of toxic poison that will seriously damage your brain cells, and the fish are full of mercury, tricloretheline, lead and atomc waste. No wnonder you can't reason and know form one minute to the next what you just wrote ten minutes ago, much lees yesterday. Buy a cat and have it stare at you for an hour. ___ A cat scan.
See what I mean.
A lot of buzz vords now. Where's the, we Americans need to rise up and have a revolution, and so and so is right, and why don't you stop hiding and fearing and get out in the streets and fight?
Shove it MALFOYD, your prior posts are sttil here for easy review.
hakori, we're on exactly the same page. The question is why it isn't happening. My guess is that people have been too thoroughly conditioned to a material existence, a conditioning that has been administered by an extremely competent corporate advertising machine. The same progress that has been made in selling soap has been extended to selling politicians, and selling wars. The mass psychology involved trumps the values that normally would be effective in controlling government. That's what I think has happened.
IMAGINEUSA. You march to the White House steps,__ "well armed",__ as YOU originally suggested, and you would ALL be attacked. that is reality you hairbrained nitwit. Grow and stop attempting to transfer what you originally wrote and suggested. Instead of writing something like , Oops, I was unaware of that law, you come back and with feeble attemps to explain what you really said. What you wrote is still there, a really idiotic comment. Do you think everyone here is stupid and can't read.
HAKORI,you don't need stand to be corrected, what you wrote about the nutcase is right on target. Every time he is questioned or corrected about some stupid comment he made, he changes his approach and wording to sooth the soul of his last chider.
If one goes back to his original post and then reads all of them, (several) It is clear he is a whacko and has nothing better to do than to toss barbs at our area instead of working to correst the major problems he has in his own house. He should be targeting his Royal Family, the neo-con's neo-con.
He is attempting in a sort of sly manner, to incite a riot. Screw him and save the nice words for the ones who contribute some decent opinions, like Claudius and Nspire for just two good examples.
Imagineusa; if the government decided to attack a marching group of protesters the results would be similar to the 'convoy of death' during the first gulf war. No matter how well armed, or not armed, the people in that march were; it wouldn't be four people killed, it would be thousandss. So if they don't attack, you don't need to defend yourself. Should they do so, better to emulate Ghandi, and let the rest of the usa see the barbarity of their decider in chief.
That being said, I don't think the bushies are crazy enough at this point to slaughter thousands of yank protesters.
I stand corrected, and you're right. There should be widespread protest in the streets. I don't know why there isn't. Where I live there has been only small protests, of which I proudly have taken part, but I live in the south. As everyone knows, the south is at least two or maybe three decades behind the rest of the country when it comes to social issues. But why there hasn't been more widespread and sustained protest in the north and west, I don't know. People should be furious. And I do agree, if we don't take back our democracy, they'll eventually be coming for those of us who have the balls to actually stand up to this regime.
hakori, by standing up forcefully, I mean protest. So you agree with me after all. The rest of what you attribute to me is all in your imagination. It's certainly not what I'm advocating.
Ok folks,once again, no one is suggesting a violent over through of our government. I am suggesting that A MILLION PATRIOT MARCH to the White House would more likely than not be interrpted as a threat to this administration. Therefore, those protestors should be prepared to defend themselves IF ATTACKED! Key words hear, IF ATTACKED. Remember Kent State?
Malfoyd, please just stop. We are not going to rise up in armed revolt against the government. I don't know where you are getting your information, but we are NOT to that point. I know things aren't wonderful, but civil war is not an option at this time. If by standing up forcefully you mean protest, then your're right. If you mean something more drastic, you're calling for disaster. And if you really think things are bad now, just imagine how bad things would be if the US were in full scale civil war. You really don't want to see that, and we sure as hell don't either. Bush WILL be gone in fourteen months. I honestly don't understand how you can say your a pacifist when you incite others to start shooting. If this is all you have to offer, it's not helping. As for laws that are unjust, those can and will be changed, but not by violence. It's almost like you want to see bloodshed on a massive scale, and it would be just that if what you are advocating happened.
ALOHA !!
DoomN Gloom ... "Ungrounded" is everything that the Dems and Reps have done to this country for the past 50 years!
"Ungrounded" is what the FED is!
"Ungrounded" is what the IRS is!
So it is little wonder that "ungrounded" is what our MONEY is!
Hi Kem
Watchout for homeland security, they might just track your I.P Address and arrest you for your part in freethinking!!! BTW how many of you believe that your govt is actually being subjegating its law abiding citizens to mental slavery - Remember watch you see, what you read - is being controlled infact alsmost each and every one of you in the US is being profiled in secret and in the open.
I would really love to run a poll in the US on people against the War in Iraq infact from what I can recall the last poll implicated a govt agaist the peoples will.... Well
Hope you get to read this...
Building on what Malfoyd's been saying, isn't there a rather famous quote by some guy who lived in what became the states that went 'give me liberty or give me death'?
Unless the government of the states uses nukes they really can't kill every one of the protesters. Despite the scary stories about intenment camps that could be converted to death camps, the government really isn't in a position to pay for locking everyone up either. The last fascist nation that tried to kill all of its enemies ended up destroying itself because too much of its resources were dedicated to killing their own people (and the people of the countries it occupied) to fight a war effectively.
I confess myself to be in two minds, part of me wants a peaceful solution to the problem of an out of control us government led by an incompetent fool. The other part wants to see the bugger hang. (after a trial, maybe after being drawn and quartered as well...)
starofthesea - of course you are right about that, and so is KEM. You have every right to be afraid, in fact you should be very afraid. You'll probably find in my posts on this thread that I believe things are very far along on the reasons-to-be-afraid scale.
But isn't there a point when you get pushed around enough by bully type treatment so you have a good long talk with yourself, and decide, 'Hey, this is exactly what this bully wants! I'm not going to be afraid any more! I'm going to do something about this!'
My point is that by not standing up forcefully to this terrible assault on the whole meaning of your country, it will get worse and worse. Warrantless wiretapping didn't surface yesterday. Nor did torture. A lot of posts here say that you have no chance to fight it, so you just have to accept it. This I find hard to believe.
I'm not being condescending. It's more like I'm imploring you: How long is it going to be before Americans take a definite stand in defense of their traditional values?
Others say it's just a matter of waiting until the next election, but with all you've lost so far, I wonder if you can really count on that alone to save you.
By the way... I'm not on a perch on the moon. Your country has a very long reach. There's no place on this planet where you can believe you are safe.
KEMPATRICK----I understood your caution to the poster who talked about an armed march on the WHite House. It really isn't being paranoid to think that such a statement could land that poster in allot of trouble, and you were simply giving him/her a heads up.
Malfloyd---again, since I am assuming you live somewhere other that the USA, isn't it rather condescending of you to gently chastise KEM or anyone else for being afraid of what our current regime might call an act of terrorism??? We have warrantless wire tapping, the suspension of habeus corpus, we condone torture, and on and on. Our president thinks HE is the only law Does that sound like a country in which people who think and speak as we do shouldn't be concerned? Easy for you to say from your perch.
Wow, what a long thread. I have to agree with some points made by all the posts I read(no, I didn't read all of them completely.)
First, it's a deal, not a treaty, kinda like the teenage version of me promising my parent's that I'd take out the trash for a week if they let me borrow the car. Only worse, there's not much chance that either Bush or Iraq could fill the terms of the deal. Bush is gone in a year and a bit, Iraq's govt falls about an hour after the us troops pull out.
Revolution? Yah, right. Civvies don'thave the arms needed to violently overthrow the govt in any country in the northern hemisphere, let alone the usa. The guy who stood up to a tank in Tienamin was likely shot later that week, year at most. the guy who drove the tank was shot that night I'll bet.
The only option for resistance to the corporate world is to take yourself out of it, and grow all your own food on your own land. Not an option for most of the people in the industrialized world. Best one can hope for is to reduce what one buys, and it's not really like most of us have a choice with that thanks to inflation, and stagnant wages.
Lets make it very simple Malfoyd. That federal law IS the law, a very strict, enforcable law I did not write. We either obey our laws, or we are a nation of anarchy. We either obey our laws or suffer the consequences. If we don't like our laws, we have ample legal means to have them changed.
I agree with that law, because without it, we could have demonstrations with 'well armed' citizens and the end result could easily be a blood bath. For any to propose we have a thousand person march of WELL ARMED citizens marching to the steps of our White House is insane. Any who agree are less than sensible.
If they do agree they should consider recruiting their army, declare war on our country and line up and fight it till freedom or death. Before they go that route, they should be acutely aware, that it's a Federal crime to promote the violent overthrow of the government and to even discuss it is a felony offense.
That was all I was attempting to advise here, and discovered that some were totally unaware they were breaking the law and could be in trouble. You seem to think that I was incorrect to post that. Why? Never mind, I really am not concerned of why you or any others may think so.
The day may come when we will see a bloodbath here, from coast to coast, and that day will arrive soon after the depression hits us and this site and all others will be closed. I predict it will arrive within six months ___ and I do hope I am wrong. I refuse to discuss this silly issue about that law further, you are welcome to have the final word sir.
Something to remember:
Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction, shall we acquire the means of effective resistance by lying on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope until our enemy shall have bound us hand and foot, is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery, forbid it almighty god, I know not what course others may take, but for me give me liberty or give me death.
- John Patrick Henry
KEM, many threads like this have an underlying theme about respect and disrespect among posters. I think people are more sensitive to possible insults in these kinds of forums than they might be face to face. Maybe it's because people tend to write quickly. Anyhow, I have no interest in insulting you. If you read my post carefully, maybe you'll see it's not intended to be personal. My message was about how people tend to honour (or be intimidated by) laws in spite of how the laws are being used or even if the laws themselves are not made in good faith.
It's clear that you do not respect your government's actions, and yet you seem to be all in favour of the laws they use to ward off citizen action against them. Lord Trigo and Jim Glover have a realistic view about these kinds of laws.
Everywhere you find people with the belief that 'the law is the law', or 'it must be right - it's the law'. Laws can be good or bad. It's your personal responsibility whether you want to respect them or not on a case by case basis. Your position that a corrupt, criminal government is better than the supposed anarchy you see if the citizens challenge it does not make sense to me. For one thing it offeres no remedy to corruption. For another it assumes people are naturally chaotic - that lack of control automatically brings out the worst in people.
In any case, I'll ask you to read my posts with my reassurance I'm intending any disrespect to anyone here, including you.
Malfoyd, don't write us off yet. Things have changed incredibly just in the past three years. When it was clear to everyone that bush had already decided to invade Iraq, there were a few dissenting voices. Actually one of those voices, a retired general, was speaking on CNN while I was at work. A co-worker made the comment to me that they aren't saying such unAmerican things on fox news--now fox news is a topic for a whole new discussion. I had to stop and gather my thoughts. UnAmerican?! Questioning our learders now is unAmerican?! Dissent is now unAmerican?! Questioning a flimsy case for war is unAmerican?! Well, I spoke up and said I don't know why we're so bent on invading Iraq. Her face drained of color like she'd seem Stalin rise from the dead. She still barely speaks to me, but now she's in the minority at my place of work. She certainly was not back them.
It takes time. We haven't had an attack like 911 on our soil since Pearl Harbor. We had no blitz. We've not had all out war on our soil since the civil war almost 150 years ago. That doesn't make us better; it makes us lucky. Some wanted revenge and it really didn't matter who they lashed out at. They just wanted to lash out. And civil liberties to them seemed a nebulous arguement when confronted by the "turrists", in the words of our great leader. I'm not condoning how they felt, but they did feel it. And that more than anything is what allowed the Iraq invasion to happen.
Now we're paying for that mistake. We'll be paying for that mistake for a very very long time, but bush will go. I still believe the good in America will survive, and I don't believe it will take violence to correct the travesty that is the bush adminstration. At least I hope it doesn't, but regardless, our democracy isn't dead. It's on lifesupport right now, but not dead. I refuse to believe my country will allow the fascist who have curtailed our liberty to simply pervail. We will pervail.
As for seeing you as a meddling outsider, I never did. I Just had a problem with the violence you seemed to be agitating for. I, and probally many if not most Americans, don't see the British (if you are British) as outsiders. You're more like our extended family. Actually, I feel as at home in Britian as I do in the States. I have not a problem with criticism from people who aren't Americans, I just thought your message was off.
I'm too timid to discuss the issue? Hou can you say that MALFOYD? I discuss it with vigor and offer my opinions as is my right. You don't have to agree with them, that is your right. But don't assume things about me that aren't so and them write them here. You wish to question me, that's fine. You wish to disagree with my posts, that's fine.
If you knew me, you or no one, would ever say I was timid to discuss or do anythng. I had an eye and half of my face shot out in Vietnam and still functioned and finished my job on that mission, I am not timid. This illegal war our government started in Iraq has not a single thing to do with some idiot posting words that are clearly illegal. My intent in my comment is not what you suggest.
I have 500 copies of such articles printed every week and hand them out at coffee shops and urge people in three different cities to read Common Dreams. I protest Bush Cheney at every opportunity, We are not welcome in the church we used to attend on occasion, because I stood up during a service and spoke out against what the puffed up preacher was saying about supporting our 'God loving' president.
Don't assume, you may come across as a know it all blowhard. I agree with much of what you say,___ not all of it.
Lord Trigo, you said it exactly right, (at 10:43).
When you're dealing with the likes of this administration, forget the rules, they'll do what they want.
When you are up against people like these, the longer you let them go on, the worse they will get. If America rose up now, and made a strong statement, the regime would comply. If you leave it till it's too late, it will come to violence.
Personally, I am pretty much a pacifist. I don't advocate force or violence, and I protest all war, every time. But I do believe in self-defence, and you have to be prepared to exercise it.
This administration has developed a full slate of totalitarian tools with the full intention of using them. To think otherwise is just sad denial. The axe will come down, and then it will be too late. Before then, there are things that can be done.
hakori, I don't blame you for wishing the best performance from your system of government. You have a great constitution, and your founding fathers were wise in their efforts to anticipate and protect against inevitable efforts to subvert it.
When I see a great country at the mercy of criminals with no regard for anything but their own greed, I have to search for some indication that the spirit in your citizens will rise to defend your country. Even while your most honoured traditions are being trashed by corporate thugs, I don't see the strong reaction a truly great coutry should have. So please don't see me as a meddling outsider. I'm just trying to appeal to the best in you.
Hey George you still owe like 18 months of service, go serve it out in the mess you and your lot created, guess you cant yer yellow
DAVE C, you brought up a very good point there. You wrote, that one of the only three Federal crimes written in our Constitution was treason. Advocating or discussing the violent overthrow of our government would be, and has been, considered to be an act of treason. Guess you and we will have to live with it until someone can have the laws changed.
That's a great quote from Kennedy, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable".
The word 'security' has taken on new meaning in the past decade, particularly as used under this US regime. It no longer means a positive state of freedom from danger. Through design, it has come to mean a state of fearful watchfulness. This perverts the positive understanding of security that a strong, confident and free people should aspire to.
KEM, by suggesting that "I would not be at all surprised, if any who write such here are not already being investigated", you are buying into the fear this administration is at pains to instill in its citizens. Is this your intention? Think about it. Your government has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in your name. Fathers, sons, mothers, sisters. Innocent Iraqis. And yet you are too timid to support a full discussion of what should befall your government for these crimes.
Your government uses violence on a regular basis to achieve its illegal goals in your name. At the same time it threatens you with violence should you contemplate the same means to bring it to heal. Do you respect their law in this regard?
If you can understand Kennedy's quote, then here's another one: 'Some laws are made to be broken'.
BTW, WTF, that violent rebellion to overthrow the government in our Revolutionary War, was not directed at__OUR__ current government. It was directed at the government of England and indeed it was illegal and an act of treason for our forefathers to do so.
That is precicely why they wrote our first and second ammendments. Unfortunantly, they are in conflict with laws that have been passed, tested in courts, and were found to be constitutional. Those laws have justification, as any reasonable person should be able to understand. We also have the rights to 'peacefully' protest and not have any necessity to have a violent overthrow of our government, __if we will use those rights, starting with everyone eligable voting.
Claudius here has offered some good means of doing such. I have offered an opinion on the issue also, don't know if it's good or not. Cindy Sheehan is doing such. Congressman Kicinich is doing such, not enough of us are doing such and over 50% of us don't bother to ever vote.
SAILA, you usually disagree with me on any subject, but that's alright, you are free to express your opinions here as I am. I disagreed with his final paragraph only. I didn't consider my comment to MALFOYD as an attack.
I felt his words in that fInal paragraph were not in any manner appropriate, as did several others here. He later apologized for his use of some of his words and I and others accepted his apology. I therefore don't see any good reason for you to bring the matter up again, unless you wish to attempt to prove some useless point or attempt to show all that I am not 'nice'.
I don't consider one has attacked me for diagreeing with me, many of my friends here do on occasion. That's how we learn from one another. Of course if one is rude or assumes things that are not true and attacks me in a personal manner, as one did here, I often respond in a like manner. I don't worry if one disagrees with me. I really don't allow such to bother my sleep in any case.
KEM PATRICK, …Personal attack on the messenger, Malfoyd, is not nice. I thought on this site we knew that we should attack only the message, not the messenger. Accordingly, I would never allow myself to say that you are a coward or that you have the mindset of a nice little old lady.
I tend to strongly agree with Malfovd that the only way to get rid of a fascist government is by revolution. If it were not for the revolution, you would still be living in a British colony. Maybe you don't mind that, but obviously a lot of people did.
I also strongly agree with the poster that said people are not yet ready for revolution. They're not now madly enraged at the status quo. They're just a little upset because they think the war has been mismanaged and their treasure wasted. The fact that the war was immoral does not seem to bother them. This vast majority are the ones Malfovd should address.
We also have Cindy Sheehan and her many fine supporters and I don't believe they pack guns or other weapons when they protest.
This is one of the most honest and revealing threads that I have ever read on this site.
It has a bit of everything:
1 Stop all the whining and do something already.
2 No matter how bad the government gets, you outsiders can keep your noses out of it.
3 Be careful what you say, big brother is listening.
I didn't realize until now how much the fear of the government had grown. Perhaps it is just among this demographic but you lot sound like conspirators in East Germany, not participants in even the weakest of democracies. Sharing ideas and educating each other is a value in itself but if what you are doing is hiding in cyberspace for fear of being discovered by the police then your situation is worse than I thought. I personally think that people should think twice before pressing the send button. Advocating violence is a mug's game. You've also got no shortage of nonviolent heroes to draw upon. There's the famous example of your lady who was brave enough to sit at the front of the bus. A hundred years from now, people will remember Rosa Parks. I bet you anything people will be tripping over themselves trying to forget the cowards running the US right now.
Well WTF, glad you found the statute, I couldn't find it last night. I was fully aware it is indeed a very serious offense and the penalties are severe, long jail sentences and high fines. Our Supreme Court has ruled on it and upheld the law by a seven to two vote. I would not be at all surprised, if any who write such here are not already being investigated. Our government has people who are well paid to do that type of work and they love their jobs which they take very seriously.
However, we do have the right of free speech (with some limitations) We do have the right to have weapons, with again, some limitations. I do not ever want to see those rights taken from us. I also can see the necessity, of not allowing citizens to march to the White House "well armed" to protest. I can also see it should be illegal, for an American to promote a violent overthrow of ours or any other government. If that were allowed, we would have anarchy. Imagine if every time we wished to have a protest march, we were "well armed". I do believe the protest march could easily become quite an exciting event. Sorry, I did not write the law, and am now sorry I even mentioned it, for if someone wishes to be ignorant of the law, that is really none of my business.
Good luck to any who have very possibly violated that law and any who supported their opinions. I do hope nothing comes of it, plesd stupidity, and you will have a decent defense.
Please excuse any of my poorly spelled words, I am legally blind and do have a little trouble with this sticky keyboard and reading the screen with a magnifing glass.
No LORD TINGO, I was not refering to Thomas Jefferson, I was answering what you had previously written, when you wrote, "I think this guy sounds dangerous".
KEM PATRICK wrote: WTF you did it too. Are you nuts?
I was shocked and horrified to read your statements on laws against violent revolution, and looked it up. Indeed, you are correct: Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government.
I was shocked because the US Government itself advocates "regime change" and has implemented this policy many times, violently and non violently, over the past 50 years. I had always believed that the Government leads by example, but now learn that there is one law for its citizens, and another law for the Government. Does not sound much like a democracy to me.
Further, modern US culture is built on violent revolution against Governments. The Original Sin being, of course, the War of Independence. There are many novels (Clancy, Follett, etc) , movies (Star Wars, V for Vendetta, etc) and music (Hip-Hop) that glorifies violent revolution against standing Governments.
The second amendment to the Constitution was instituted to enable well-armed militias to protect the security of a free state, but is illegal under Sec. 2385.
So WTF? OK, I'm not going to advocate violent insurrection any more, but I think a case can be made that most of US society, starting with the US Government, is abrogating this law.
This has been another amazing thread that shows that if we keep up the discussion for only a day or so we clear up most of our misunderstandings.
Lord Trigo, you took the words right out of my mouth with my favorite JFK quote "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable". Also when I was just a kid, Gus Hall told me that revolution will come when things get really bad.
I don't care what the new bad laws say when they go against our natural rights.
If I am not around to let you all know when the time for armed rebellion has come, It will happen when it needs to happen like shit happens and it is good.
Love Ya, Jim
"Treaties shall be the supreme law of the land." Isn't it great how cynically the current administration uses this constitutional directive? When it suits the imperial agenda, it applies. When international law contravenes their policy, its quaint and outdated.
I mean our right to discuss abstract ideas, hahaha.
KEM: I don't think he sunds dangerous, he wrote a stupid and illegal comment however. It isn't funny. And I don't want to see this site shut down either.
I assume you're referring to IMAGINEUSA and not Thomas Jefferson. If posting a quote from one our nation's Founding Fathers can get this site shut down, then we've already passed the point of no return.
Another thing to remember: if those in power want to shut this site down or arrest us, they will. Totalitarian governments don't need legitimate excuses to do those things; that's what makes them totalitarian. Like every dictator from Hitler to Musharaff, they will accuse those who disagree with them, even non-violently, of treason or threatening the "fatherland." Is Kasparov making threats against Putin? Are the lawyers of Pakistan planning a violent revolution? Doubtful on both counts. They're just demanding the rights that every human being is entitled to. That hasn't stopped their respective governments from jailing them to "prevent disorder" and "protect the state." An abstract discussion about the circumstances under which citizens should revolt against their government is probably not going to bring us any closer to that dreaded knock on the door than we already are, and by giving up our right to do so out of fear, we've already allowed the powers that be to circumscribe our freedom.
Here's another "dangerous" quote:
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" John F. Kennedy
Is it really wishful thinking, OR a face-saving act designed to make it look like an honorable withdrawal.
OREZ ENO I never said I was against the right of free speech and I sure do use mine, both here and in the public meetings at our local government. Your half assed assumptions about me are just that. If you are tired of my posts, there is a little thing called a mouse, just use it to scroll on by.
You can be ashamed of me if you like, you don't know squat about me, except for things I have posted here on CD. I don't care if you are ashamed of me or not. And if you think promoting violence is the answer, knock yourself out.
Regardless of what you claim, I said the man had violated a federal law and you disagreed with me. Now you say you were not arguing that point. You can play your silly games with words if you so choose and that also does not bother me.
DAVE C You are wrong. I know what the second ammendment reads and the first. The man wrote we he would like to see us march on the White House WELL ARMED. Read what he wrote.
That is a Federal crime, I am sorry but it is a federal crime to advocate or promote violence against the goverment federal or state, and or, to even discuss such. The key words were well armed. I did not write the law. That law has been tested in the Supreme Court and was upheld as constitutional by a vote of seven to two. If you think there are only three Federal crimes you are badly misinformed.
You guys can think anything you wish, I don't really care.
"A boycott of all corporations that profit from this administration's wars would get a lot of attention, and be very effective."
What, you gonna boycott the oil companies and the defense contractors? Tell me how that works.
Please name those companies that you will boycott that you think will make a hoot of a difference? Names, please.
"You write posts like that IMAGINEUSA, and Common Dreams could be shut down."
Not-hardly... Enough of that-type posting/Commentary will get CD 'quietly-controlled' by our well-meaning Anti-Terrorist agencies, who would then follow the usual JustusDept-approaches of 'Sting-operations' -- planting scam-Posters using just-over-the-Line "harmful Free-Speech", and then gathering-info on all who can be characterized as like-Thinking "online/Domestic-terrorists" because they are participating in this-Forum (and allowed these 'baiting-posts' to incite them to Extremism).
Violence is not an appropriate or acceptable response for ending-Violence.
'Revolution' against a foreign-Occupier or colonial-overload is NOT the same as any proposed ill-intent towards one's own-Government and/or fellow-Citizens. [I have occasionally witnessed civil-disorder and internal-Revolution (on small-scale) -- trust me, no one here wants to see any-such in America.]
All/any mention of a 'need for Violence', or its efficacy in 'changing'-America/the-Admin/etc. -- meaning, violence advocated against others-in-America -- MUST be shouted-down and/or exposed for what it is...
Ideas are, in longterm, far more-powerful than any-weapons.
And if you cannot convince others that what you propose is also in "their Self-Interests", then maybe your Proposition is just 'wrong-headed'.
I categorically deny any agreement or association with any Poster/author here (or anywhere-else) who advocates ANY form of Violence towards any entity/person or institution/agency, anywhere -- under any-circumstance whatsoever or to serve any-Goal...PERIOD.
Many of the comments here show a shocking obliviousness to the changes that have occurred since a Democratic majority was elected to both houses of Congress in November of 2006. When that change occurred Democrats in Congress took over all Senate and House committees including the oversight functions of these committees that have the power to take action to correct illegal and inappropriate activities in all branches of government.
(Some of you may remember references to the rubberstamp Republican Congress before this point in time.)
While the Bush Administration clung to its previous course, an almost endless number of changes have occurred in the last year.
Robert Gates replaced Donald Rumsfeld; the US agreed to give North Korea the food and heating oil it was withholding; the US agreed to let Iranian influenced Shiites run Iraq; torture, wiretapping and illegal detainment at Guantánamo have all been exposed, rebuked and rendered largely inoperative; three of the President's chief apostles, Alberto Gonzales, Tony Snow and Karl Rove have resigned; this week the two top Republicans in Congress announced their resignations.
Still the din 'pitchforks and torches to the White House' goes on.
Are people that oblivious to the changes that have occurred?
Dr. Ron Paul is "ungrounded?" That's a laugh, considering the group he's running against.
What ever happened to gravitas?
Malfoyd, I'm sorry I attacked you in my previous posts. It's not that I totally disagree with you, I just think things in the US aren't past the point of no return. And it's also a case of we can call our mother a bitch, but we don't want to hear it from someone else. And I don't think we were putting people into camps just because they're not from "here" like someone suggested. I have and always will have a special place in my heart for Great Britian. The British Isles are the motherland for a great deal of Americans, including myslef. We were at one time British, then we had our tea party. And yes, your democracy is still working, unlike ours, but we will hopefully rectify that directly. But remember, Tony Blair was less than innocent concerning Iraq. He gave cover to bush. He legitimized bush's insanity.
We are having an election next year, and with any luck the Democrats will take the white house and gain a larger majority in both houses of congress. That's not to say I'm totally happy with the Democrats, unless we're talking about Dennis Kucinich. If the next democratic president doesn't immediately start to dismatle the undemocratic infrastructure this madman has put into place, then I will definetly start to worry. Immigration to Canada is an option. Some would say that's an act of cowardice, but if things don't improve here it's a real option: more so than armed revolt. Even with a conservative government, Canada's values are much more like those of many of us than even our own country's. That's not to say I'm giving up. Immigration is an option of last resort.
Kem Patrick and others, No one is suggesting a violent overthrow of our government, YET! But the right to bare arms and march is protected under the Constitution of the United States. If you wish to restrict those rights? I suggest you call the White House for help?
This 'agreement' doesn't have the power of law; it's more of George's Song.
KEM PATRICK November 28th, 2007 12:51 am
You wrote:
OREZ you say you were not diagreeing with me.
Yes you were, and that is your perfect right. I only relplied, that you were wasting your time to do so, because I didn't write the law, nor do I enforce it.
Sorry, but I specifically said I was not trying to convince you. The words disagree (which you spelled incorrectly) and convince are very different.
Free speech does not mean that you can say something in a public forum and then no one else is allowed to give an opposing opinion. You may choose to remain unconvinced all you want, but you cannot suppress others from saying they believe you are wrong.
The bottom line is we are diametrically opposite in many ways, but the most fundamental is in our understanding of what it means to be an American. Indeed, it is people like you that as an American I am most embarrassed of. You willing give up you right to free speech at the stroke of pen of some law that is obviously contrary to everything that we as Americans claim to stand for. And, as a veteran I believe I have earned the right to say that.
Malfoyd was correct. Our democracy is pretty much dead and we have long past the time when we should have violently overthrown our current fascist government. I fear that ultimately, as happens with all corrupt governments, we will be forced to do so.
Incidentally, I know you are enjoying your retirement spending your entire day here on CommonDreams.org commenting ten times over on every article that appears but adding little enlightenment beyond your own misunderstandings. Now I'm not one to suppress your right to free speech in a public forum. You can continue doing this all you like. However you should know that many of us are getting tired of the sound of your voice.
Bush and Cheney suck on the Oil organ and spew death. What will become of these two if they can't deliver the pipelines and US military protection as they promised?
Will the corporations that call their tunes send them home? Will they be called 'doo-doo heads' in the "press"? Will their Mommies make them eat all their broccoli?
The CEOs and the shareholders of the companies that profit from war and murder are as guilty as the B/C twins; and, should also be required to pay the price for their crimes
What difference does this make? It is not as if Maliki is a freely elected leader. What other outcome did anyone expect under foreign armed occupation?
Kaimu, Ron Paul is ungrounded. Sorry, no can do.
ALOHA!!
I live in a State that is an example of American and British Imperialism that has been in existance for over 100 years now ... HAWAII !!! Once a soveign nation like Iraq but then subjected to the jackbooted thugs of gunboat diplomacy that has been the hallmark of the US government and the US Military and CIA ever since.
Please those here who say it is this generations fault please read some "real" US History and you will see this has been the theme not only here in the USA but in Europe for 1000 years ... THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!!! THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT NEW !!!
Iraq has been pilaged and plundered by foreign European governments for a very long time now. The British taught Saddam all about weapons of mass destruction and the advantages of biological warfare way back in the days of Winston Churchill(1923) when the British Empire routinely dropped mustard gas on the Kurds and Iraqis in order to quell the same insurgents the USA is attempting to quell today. The same insurgents the Russian Empire went bankrupt trying to quell in the 1980s.
THE PATH TO RESTORE TRUE FREEDOM
First order of business is to disconnect yourself from the two party aristocracy that has been in charge of our future for the past 100 years ... The Dems and the Reps. The Dems got us into Vietnam and kept us there even when there were mass riots at every US college back in the 1960s. A Republican President got us out of Vietnam. Now a Republican President has gotten us into an even worse Vietnam. Only diff is this time they were wise and used no "draft". Nobody really cares if volunteers die since they signed up of their own "free" will! This is why Bush avoids "treaties" or anything that requires the involvement of Congress and the American people.
This country started as a Republic not a Democracy. Our Founding Fathers feared a Democracy as much as they feared the King of England! The damage has been done some 100 years ago and those who hold our money hostage since 1913 know this well. The KING is back! Only just like the King Of England back in the 1700s our KING GEORGE of BUSH is owned by the same bankers ... the same elite US and European families. The likes of the Rothschilds and Rockefellers and the Morgans ... The founder of the European banking empire said over 230 years ago before the USA was a free nation ... GIVE ME CONTROL OF A NATIONS MONEY AND I CARE NOT WHO MAKES ITS LAWS! Amschel Baer Rothschild ... This is the same old strategy being employed today by the more modern bankers only now money is measured in TRILLIONS not MILLIONS and it is moved by mouse clicks not trucks and ships!
GOVERNMENT IS ONLY AS HONEST AS ITS MONEY ...
I am on the front lines of a political REVOLUTION that would change the face of that BANKING CARTEL. I am a RON PAUL volunteer here in Hawaii. If you need a place to start then start there. RON PAUL has been fighting the US FEDERAL RESERVE BANK(fiat money system)for over 16 years now and he has been all alone in that endeavour. Ask Alan Greenspan who grilled him the most ... Ask Ben Bernanke who he most fears when he is in front of the House Of Representatives? Ask the IRS and the FED which political candidate today wants to eliminate them as viable entities? Without the US Taxpayer none of the Bush policies or any of the past two party aristocracy policies could be implemented. The US Taxpayer holds the power in America yet the US Taxpayer does not even know this. Nobody in America knows the key to all their ills ... the key to their freedom and their kids freedom is the removal of the corrupt fiat monetary system that rules our finances and our lives now. Our revolution back in 1776 was fought for the same reasons that enslave us today! It could all change literally overnight!! Look what the Russian people did to their government the USSR when they were fed up. The same can happen here in the USSA ... We The People of The United States Of America have a long and proud history of REVOLUTION! Get onto the front lines now ... Start with supporting RON PAUL!
We need another BOSTON TEA PARTY!!!
Join the REVOLUTION !!! DO IT NOW !!!
Is it time for revolution? Peaceful revolution perhaps but not violent revolution. The people are not yet ready to be led and a violent revolution now would return minimal gain. Let's not make the Bush/Cheney team taller than they really are. Yes they are reeking havoc both domestically and internationally, but let's not give up on the law and people's respect for it at this time. Bush and Cheney both know that the tall clover they thought they were in was really a mirage. What they are in today is much deeper and of their own making. In fact, they are drowning in it and their awful behaviors are anchored in denial. Just for fun, imagine their wakeup when it arrives! Pres Bush cries at night and Cheney's ticker has lost it's tock. This pair of misunderestimated deciders are cracking under the weight of their misunderestimated deeds. They know that their power is dwindling and they keep flexing it just to prove to themselves that it is still there. Their insular behavior is misoverjudged as well. Like most bad boys they are facing certain reality and they are about to have a transforming experience. Overnight they will see the light!
I don't know about you but I want a ticket to this show.
Hey you guys know how to prevail. You have those tough Dutch, Germans, displaced Aussies and the Zulu warriors. You all made it. We got Bush, Cheney, Halliburton and Wal-Mart and owe our asses and our grandkids asses to China. We have hope, but hope is just a nice four letter word, unless action is added to it.
on a verge of Recession... the dream seems to be fading to America the land of the broke.
That's Okay SWORD, I am a dumbass though.
Do you happen to have a direct line to Jimmy Hoffa Jr.? __ How about a place to hide our dumb asses when the depression hits? __ You have any diamonds left over there? Any of that would help.
For OREZ ENO and any who wish to read about the Federal law concerning advocationg the VIOLENT overthrow of the government, read this. I didn't find the Federal statute, but this is a good start. ___ If the link opens.
http://thenewslies.org/blog/?p=600
It won't open, page not available, just Google laws on the subject.
BTW - The strike you guys intending to do... HOw can we assist. SA - South Africa
Sorry Kem article referred to topic and not your post. My apologies..
I didn't see it until about six months ago. But, I'm a dumbass and know it.
Globilization, Globilization, Globilization.
Domination, Minipulation, segregation, brutalization, Murder, deception, Thieves and list go's on.
This is no NEW Story. You should have seen this comming from a distance.
Claudius, the unions could do it. A nation wide trucker strike could set it off, along with the airline workers. They'd get lots of media attention and everyone in the country would understnad what it was all about. The trucks that haul essentials, food and fuel, could continue to roll. I bet Congress would be jumping through hoops in a day. It would all be about putting impeachment on the table and let the mandatory hearings begin.
Just this evening a friend and neighbor dropped by to pick up their dog we were baby sitting for a couple of days. They are a family of RABID Republicans, they worked their tails off for Bush and passed out lying propaganda against Kerry, which was printed by their 'goodie- goodie Bush loving church. Up until a month ago, they were still not sure if Bush was an idiot. They refused to acknowledge, he has ruined this nation. Well, tonight he was pretty humble and said things about Bush I never expected to hear. I hope he is not alone, and I am certain he is not.
Another good deal is, the Republican party does not have much money this time and I bet they won't get much. The Democrats do have money, and of course sadly, that is the name of the game here.
I would like to add to Malfoyd's comments, because I also, as an outsider, feel that Americans are not doing enough to act against this government, but I am aware that there is a minority that is working overtime to do so and I acknowledge starofthesea's frustrations. I'm happy that I'm not an American right now, because the burden of responsibility is quite heavy on you. Maybe our disappointment is mainly with the thickness of the skull of the majority who are not yet active.
I am particularly disappointed that, even though there are 70% of the people against Bush, this does not yet extend to the Republican Party. In polls, Republican candidates still manage to get people's attention, just by disassociating themselves from Bush. But we all know where they were only three years ago, when Bush was still popular. This whole disaster was a Republican plan, and of course it became a disaster, because Republicans are generally stupid. And a large proportion of the people of America are generally also stupid in not recognizing this fact: saying they disapprove of Bush, but hey Giuliani is having a speech tonight, let's listen to what he has to say.
I think that the 'dissident' movement in the U.S. has achieved a lot in the last few years (unimaginable now, but Bush was actually 'popular' only a few years back), but when they convince fellow citizens to stand up against Bush, now it is time to pay attention to quality, not only quantity. If really 70% of the people disapprove of the whole Republican apparatus and the ideology they stand for, it would really mean that major changes are taking place in the American society, but apparently disapproval of Bush does not yet run very deep, even though it is widespread.
I don't have a clue CLAUDIUS. We are afraid to give one another our e-mail addresses, with ample justification. Most here won't even use their real names. I have had one blogger here ask me for my E-mail address and she gave me her telephone number. She wrote it was very important that I call her.
I called from a pay phone during that fishing trip 2,500 miles from my home when we were near New York city. The number was a company number, but I don't remember the name. I asked for the person who had written to me here. The woman who answered said, "OH, the Common Dreams person". Whoooah!! The woman came on the line and she didn't want anything really, except my e-mail address or home phone number. She was just talking about nothing really. I was very suspicious naturally and didn't give her any information. I have never seen her blog before or since that day, the second of October. She also blogged using two different names. One was MOOKIE and the other I don't recall right off hand, but it is on that thread of the American Embassy woman, who stated she hated all Iranians. It's in the archives for early October or late September. If you look it up, she had again asked me to call her and left a phone number.
Anyway how could we all meet and discuss such things? I don't know. I suspect, any such discussions might fall under the threat of the people being terrorists in the Bush Cartel's opinion. Therefore, we may all be screwed already.
Kem,
I am game. When do we start and how do we get everyone else on CD involved?
Lets do them both Claudus.
BTW, any who may have gotten the impression that I fear to talk or write here are wrong.
And thnk you for posting the clarification MALFOYD, it is not difficult or unusual for a mis-understanding when writing E-mail type comments.
So how about if we all concentrate our efforts (including influencing other people) to boycott corporations. All of us who post on CD should participate in this. We should get all of our family members and friends to participate. We can get the word out on Youtube, Facebook, and other media sources. It won't be a one-day nationwide boycott of Exxon Mobil. It will be a year long or longer boycott of WalMart, McDonald's and other mega corporations. That way none of us will go to jail, and we will have severed more than one head of the corporate hydra. How about if we all adjust our lifestyles so we no longer support corporations. Many posters here at CD have given excellent ideas and perhaps we ought to adopt and abide by them. It might be a little uncomfortable at first, but we will get acclimated to it. The other day, I was talking to a friend who asked if I was going to take advantage of the shopping sales following Thanksgiving. I said "no, I only go shopping when I need to." My friend asked me "Why not? There will be great sales." I said "no, it supports the corporations that prop up our corrupt politicians, and I only purchase what I need, and usually from second-hand stores. Wait until a steep recession or depression hits this country, and then you will understand what I am saying." He hung up the phone completely baffled. How about we draft a Declaration of Independence from Corporations? We make a list of corporations to boycott, and everyone follows it. Sound good?
I have written this twice prior, on other threads. I wish to see a total walkout of all workers and stay at home with the flu until impeachment is on the table. A 'peaceful protest'. We only go out of our homes for essentials. Those who work in essential jobs, such as police, fire, furnishing electrical power, fuel and water, medical facilities, food and drug stores keep working.
Everyone else, stay home and stay there as long as it takes for our Congress to wake up and do their legal duty. Just like a Teamsters strike, do it and stand tough. We don't need any marches, or demonstrations. I'd bet Congress would come to terms in a few days. That type of a strike is not illegal and it would work.
OREZ you say you were not diagreeing with me.
Yes you were, and that is your perfect right. I only relplied, that you were wasting your time to do so, because I didn't write the law, nor do I enforce it.
Because of my poor expression, some here understood I was suggesting it would be better for people here not to comment if they weren't prepared to take action against this administration. This is not what I think. Most comments on this site are thoughtful and valuable. I read them often.
But there is a huge amount of protest throughout the web, and an overwhelming consensus that your government does not represent the real America. Yet there is virtually no effective action against it.
Others understood I was advocating taking up arms and shooting people. No, but unless real action is taken soon, it may come to that. It won't be because those seeking change will shoot first, either. As I pointed out, when a government starts using torture abroad, you can be sure they will soon use it at home. When a government spies on its own people, the fears KEM PATRICK obviously harbours will become justifiably widespread. People will stop talking to each other for fear of the official consequences.
claudius suggests action against the corporations, and I couldn't agree more. A boycott of all corporations that profit from this administration's wars would get a lot of attention, and be very effective. That would be a lot of corporations, and it would involve great sacrifice on both sides. Privatization is what this administration is all about, and that is where you would have the greatest effect.
Boycotting corporations would require withholding your taxes, because the lion's share of war spending goes to private corporations, including the 'contractors', 180,000 strong, in Iraq. The Congress you elected to withhold war funding isn't doing it, so maybe it's up to you.
Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses.
It does not matter what you may believe bud, the law is very clear on the issue. Some here have already broken that federal law and they better be careful if they are Americans. I don't wish to see any here in any trouble, but they may very well be.
We have the right to have arms. We do not have the right to 'advocte' the violent overthrow of our government, That is two seperate issues. If the government attacks us with violence, that is another matter altogether. I do believe also, that law was put on the books long after Jefferson died. I'm not certain of that. His opinons are a moot issue also, the written law is not.
I don't think he sunds dangerous, he wrote a stupid and illegal comment however. It isn't funny. And I don't want to see this site shut down either.
All this talk about what to do. We had Garry Kasparov going to bat for the Russian people last Saturday and the Russian police were waiting for him and arrested him. he is now captured and will not eat or drink the food of the jailers because they have a history of poisoning people.
Gary is the famous world chess champion. he has money he has women he has a son and friends and yet he makes it his mission to lead his country.
I very much admire Garry Kasparov and I hope for Putins sake, that kasperov emerges from that jail with his body and mind intact - the 5 days are up on Thurday.
The whole debacle is a terror tactic of Putin to scare the whole country into shutting up.
Keep him in your thoughts and get his word out on the news as he is a much admired person for many reasons.
@KEM PATRICK November 27th, 2007 11:29 pm
Your wrote:
It just so happens to be a Federal crime (to promote, or advocate, the "violent" overthrow of the government.) Sorry if you or any are unaware of that legal FACT.
This is one that I will have to investigate, and I expect it will take me some time to do so.
You also wrote:
If you wish to disagree with me, you are wasting your nimble fingers
Of course I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. The idea of free speech is to communicate and consider opinions, not necessarily to convince.
But you see my dilemma, don't you? On the one hand I was taught in school that Americans have the right to bear arms against their government, while on the other hand you say, "it is illegal to promote, or advocate, the "violent" overthrow of the government". Please forgive me for harping on this, but in all honesty this is the first I hear about such a law. And yes, I admit that I did not always pay attention in school.
Regardless of how this turns out, regardless of which law is legal and which is not, one thing is for sure, we have diametrically opposite opinions on this one. I do not believe that giving an opinion that our government should be overthrown contributes to anarchy. I believe that such an opinion helps promote critical thinking. It is a test of whether or not we do indeed truly enjoy free speech in this country. And finally, it is a check and balance that was designed into our constitution by the founding fathers to help prevent our government from becoming an evil dictatorship.
If our government were good, I agree that an actual attempt to overthrow it would be anarchy. But if as I said that government were good, it would be obvious that it did not deserve to be overthrown and few people would take seriously an individual's opinion to overthrow it. Said another way, the opinion to overthrow the government simply wouldn't be taken seriously by most people. So there is little chance of anarchy. There is no need in that case to prevent a person from opinionating that the government should be overthrown. However, if that government were truly evil, the opinion to overthrow it may help promote legitimate action, and such action would not be anarchy. Indeed, it would be patriotic. In this case every citizen should be encouraged to opinionate that the government should be overthrown.
I say this not to convince you of anything. I say it merely to communicate my stand both to you and others who read these posts on CommonDreams.org. The way I see it, you can't have it both ways. You can't say to me on the one hand that I have freedom of speech, but on the other hand that there are certain things that I cannot say, beyond direct personal threats and unacceptable foul language of course. But more importantly, isn't the very goal of free speech to act as a check against our government becoming evil? And how can free speech do that if we are never allowed to opinionate that the government should or should not be overthrown? To me it does not make sense. It is also contrary to everything that I thought our country stood for.
>OREZ__ENO. It just so happens to be a Federal crime (to promote, or advocate, the "violent" overthrow of the government.) Sorry if you or any are unaware of that legal FACT.
Well, I sure hope they're keeping an eye on this guy. He sounds dangerous!:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson
Thought police? Are you all crazy? It the federal police, the FBI, etc you'd better worry about, and you can bet your ass they are watching. They would love to shut this site down. If they see it, lookout and that would be good advice for any who have agreed with the nut.
Yes OREZ_ENO. I also hope the thought police are not as active as Kem suggests.
CD lost my earlier post, but that's just as well, it was hardly an uplifting one. Still ... what is going on? I didn't mention the "R" word (with or without an "A" in front of it) and still it goes missing.
WTF you did it too. Are you nuts?
OREZ__ENO. It just so happens to be a Federal crime (to promote, or advocate, the "violent" overthrow of the government.) Sorry if you or any are unaware of that legal FACT.
BTW, the punishment is very severe, no matter where one may post it.
If you read that post of IMAGNEUSA carefully, the words are, "A WELL ARMED" march to the White House steps. I do believe any federal prosescutor, would be inclined to say, that is advocating a violent overthrow of the government. I happen to go along with that particular law that such should be illegal for several good reasons, including it is advocating anarchy.
You can believe as you so choose on the matter. I also believe the law could shut down Common Dreams, if they allow such to be posted. They have deleted such comments here prior to this and they should. That's my opiinon and I will stand by it. If you disagree with that law, see about having it changed. If you wish to disagree with me, you are wasting your nimble fingers, because I didn't write the law.
Malfoyd's remarks rankle because most of us feel frustrated, in part because we feel impotent and then resort to carping and bickering. I think his points are like salt in our own self-inflicted wounds.
Funny, isn't it, that we take offense having our activities called into question. But what Malfoyd fails to realize is that his characterization of us " doing nothing" is not what WE feel when stymied after actively working for change in ways we were taught a good citizen functions.
And funny how our tendency to divide in nationalistic camps, our tendency to cast him as OTHER because he is not US, makes his challenge more offensive. We would rather criticize ourselves. It would have been more helpfulto this thread--more constructive, if he could have asked what folks in HIS country could do to help awakened folks here to be more effective, or feel more connected. He seems to catagorize all US citizens as SUV driving dolts.
Fact is, many of us consciously live life very simply, and want to make a real contribution to the vialbility of all lifeforms. Green living in Europe is at least in part, a natural outgrowth of dwindling natural resources, and the recognition that conservation and preservation was not an option if they wanted any quality of natural life to be available for future generations. We,unfortunately have yet to face that problems in the same way they have, due to the size and richness of our resources. That is changing slowly, but many people are still in denial. We are a young nation comparatively and have not yet learned the limits and folly of empire, and its attendant exceptionalism.
Had Malfoyd acknowledged his own Nation's fallibility, it would have been easier to see his motives as trying to help instead of simply pointying an accusatory finger at us.
I am deeply troubled by the mindless consumptiom and the disconnect from reality that characterizes so many here, but that will change one person at a time, and we can help the transformation by being examples, not by disdainful condemnation.
voxclamantis wrote: I'm not sure what kind of action, what kind of "fight" you are proposing. Armed rebellion? Are you suggesting that we set IEDs for Bush partisans like our brother insurgents in Iraq? Who, exactly, should we target?
- Federal buildings (except Post Offices)
- Military installations
- MSM outlets and television/cable distributors
- Headquarters of corporations that donated electoral funds
- Churches
- Wall Street
Did I leave any out?
The people he should be talking to, the ones who in fact keep their guilty silence while our warlords go forth to secure cheap oil and other plunder from the poor of the earth, browse in the great central pasture of American politics. The spectrum, as it was described to me after the failure to stop the war in the Spring of 2003, is purely demographic: 20% pacifists (us), 35% hawks (them), and 45% cows (the vast, bovine, sleepy, undecided, acquiescent herd of middle Americans. Malfoyd is right that they should be ashamed of themselves and their country for this (we pacifists already are.) To speak to them he'll have to take out an ad on the sports page.
actually, cows like food. put out ice cream for them and they'll come. but don't ask them to think.
i had a comment erased once. it was an impeachment thread, and i offered the opinion that impeachment was one of two ways to get rid of the rule of george and dick. i also said what the other way was.
@KEM PATRICK November 27th, 2007 9:04 pm
You wrote:
You write posts like that IMAGINEUSA, and Common Dreams could be shut down.
Really? Now this surprises me. I thought IMAGINEUSA's comments were quite mild and certainly not as bad of many other posts here on CommonDreams.
Then you wrote:
It is strictly illegal to promote the violent overthrow of our government and it should be. I hope the site monitor erases your comment.
Well, I certainly didn't know that such language was illegal. But even if it is, I am puzzled that you say it should be.
Perhaps I'm naïve but isn't freedom of speech the right to say anything you want? And my goodness, can't I say that I want to overthrow our government when in fact our founding fathers preached that we have the right to do so?
I have heard that it is against the law to make a direct threat to the president, like perhaps to assassinate him. But is openly giving the opinion that you wish the President to be assassinated a direct threat? Yikes. I sure hope the thought police never get the technology to read our thoughts. If so, I'm in real trouble because that is something I dream about almost every night.
I think it would be sad if we were all forced to restrict our speech in such a way here on CommonDreams. If so, please send me a link to another site where I am free to speak my mind.