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The Big Lie Marches On
We must have an honest accounting of the Iraq War.
The war is over, sort of, but the Big Lie marches on: that democracy is flowering in Iraq, that America is stronger and more secure than ever, that doing what’s right is the prime motivator of all our military action.
And the troops will be home for Christmas. Hurrah! Hurrah!
(The men will cheer, the boys will shout, and we’ll all feel gay, except maybe Rick Perry.)
“The war in Iraq will soon belong to history,” President Obama told the troops at Fort Bragg last week. “Your service belongs to the ages. Never forget that you are part of an unbroken line of heroes spanning two centuries — from the colonists who overthrew an empire, to your grandparents and parents who faced down fascism and communism, to you — men and women who fought for the same principles in Fallujah and Kandahar, and delivered justice to those who attacked us on 9/11.”
Maybe, as he fulfilled his campaign promise and shut down the Iraq operation after nearly nine years of occupation, slaughter and nation-wrecking, the president had no choice but to extol the glory of our fake values, to pretend — to those who fought it — that this was an honorable war, waged in self-protection and righteous vengeance.
Maybe, even if Barack Obama has a grand plan and does, as so many people believe, intend to change the national direction — to make compassion and honesty our primary governing values — he can only do so incrementally. He still has to, you know, humor the fist-pumpers and American exceptionalists. He still has to lie.
I don’t know.
I fear that the Big Lie is seductive, because there’s so much power attached to it. On the outside looking in, when you’re just a state senator from Illinois, or whatever, the invasion of Iraq may look like a dumb war. But on the inside of the operation, with so much power at stake, the pragmatic necessities of empire, a.k.a., our national interests — control of oil, dominance in the Middle East, the well-being of defense contractors — morph into patriotic values, and seem, all of a sudden, worth the cost in human lives, environmental devastation and even the well-being of future generations.
If there’s no such thing as a president who can tell the truth about a fraudulently launched, devastatingly counterproductive military adventure, or speak critically about militarism in general — because the truth would, oh, bring down the economy — we have an inadequate system of government, whose fundamental purpose is to resist change and perpetuate itself no matter what.
This is a problem. There may be no way to change such a system from the inside, which was clearly Barack Obama’s mandate, as well as his promise, when voters swept him into office, and the world cheered, in 2008.
The mistake the Obama constituency made was to believe that we can leave the details of change up to a designated leader. It’s not democracy that’s inadequate, but a system of representative government in which only the enormously wealthy, or those who have indentured themselves to moneyed interests, can cross the threshold into leadership positions. In such a system, those who oppose the interests of war and empire can’t possibly be represented. It is these interests that declare the Iraq war a success and, in so declaring, lay the groundwork for the next war and the continuation of the military-industrial economy, even in the face of the increasing pointlessness of war.
“Why is war in decline? For one thing, it no longer pays,” declared Steven Pinker and Joshua S. Goldstein in an op-ed in the New York Times last week. “For centuries, wars reallocated huge territories, as empires were agglomerated or dismantled and states wiped off the map. But since shortly after World War II, virtually no borders have changed by force, and no member of the United Nations has disappeared through conquest.”
Their premise is that, despite appearances to the contrary, history is in the process of declaring war obsolete. This is an achingly slow process, with lots of backsliding, but trust us, they say, wealth now emanates more from trade than the control of land, and war only hurts trade. As prosperity increases and central governments grow stronger, War, the Apocalyptic horseman with the human face, rides off into the sunset.
While I agree with their historical assessment, I take issue with their implicit contentment to sit back, enjoy the prosperity, and let large, impersonal social forces do the job of eliminating war. I also disagree that trade itself has no use for war — not when we have a military-industrial economy that is committed to fresh wars against whomever or whatever looms next as a convenient enemy.
I think we’re caught in a paradoxical moment, when history’s long arc has indeed begun to swing away from the logic of brutal domination, but those in power still depend on it and seek to perpetuate it under cover of the Big Lie.
I urge the convening of a truth commission that refuses to sit and wait for history. We must have an honest accounting of this war that may have killed as many as a million Iraqis and helped wreck our economy even as it enriched a few powerful profiteers. A disastrous war may be over, but there’s no cause for cheering until we free our government from the interests that waged it.
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133 Comments so far
Show AllI had stopped reading that article in the Times last Sunday as I knew what the authors were saying was a lie. This claim by Obama:
"Never forget that you are part of an unbroken line of heroes spanning two centuries — from the colonists who overthrew an empire, to your grandparents and parents who faced down fascism and communism, to you — men and women who fought for the same principles in Fallujah and Kandahar, and delivered justice to those who attacked us on 9/11.”
is most certainly a lie. It is more than curious that our fearless leader conveniently made no mention of our less than noble cause in a place called Vietnam those many years ago. Those misguided military personnel who took part in that ill-fated conflict were no "heroes" as the Vietnamese people can well attest to. Dropping napalm and Agent Orange on those people and setting fire to the hamlets of Vietnamese peasants and slaughtering about 3 million Vietnamese should never be thought of as being heroic. And of course none of the soldiers who were present at Fort Bragg when Obama gave that erroneous speech were going to stand up and shout that he was wrong when he proceeded to whitewash the pages of history.
You are right. The destruction of Fallujah was NOT heroic. It was a war crime. It was a punitive attack to slaughter civilians who might have supported patriotic Iraqi resistance fighters defending their nation from foreign invaders. Fallujah is to the USA what Gruernica was to the Germans. A chance to display massive military technology to destroy a city and everyone in it. Some of the US soldiers involved in the war crimes there have made a "Justice in Fallujah Project", to present the truth, to repent their crimes, to try to make amends.
Eternal occupations and wars equals an eternal revenue stteam for the military industrial complex that owns the Democratic Party and the GOP.
raydelcamino:
Absolutely right ! As long ago as the late 1950's then
President Eisenhower warned us about the Military-
Industrial complex (MIC). We must consider that he
knew whereof he spoke. He was a career military officer,
and during WW II he was at the highest rank possible.
It is now a "no brainer" that the MIC wants wars from time
to time, and wants weapons build-up between the wars.
[Just to keep the cash flowing, as the MIC would say.]
Eventually, letting that kind of attitude (in effect) rule over
the nation will lead to the ruin of the nation. In the most
obvious context, we can't afford the money. We're not
as rich as we once were, and supplying the system with
money is (it seems to me) a "shell game" anyway. In a
deeper context, we can't afford the ill-will of the world,
which our military exercises generate. It's time now to
"give peace a chance". We have much that needs doing
inside our own borders, enough to utilize all the cash flow
we're now diverting to MIC. Consider something like
"America First". I'll vote for it. Keep families in their homes.
Feed the hungry. Support education of the young people.
Repair and rebuild our old roads, bridges, electric power
grid, etc. Assure the medical care of the sick. Provide some
up-lifting experiences for those who are "burned out" by the
daily grind of commute-and-work. Research for sources of
energy that don't depend on foreign (likely hostile) countries.
All good purposes here at home. AMERICA FIRST.
AEQUUM: You are right about:
1. Eisenhower's warning
2. that war is profitable to some very dark interests
3. that the nation can no longer afford it
4. that it brings ill will in its wake
The missing part is that just because a U.S. president declares the "End" to the latest calamity (and with the huge bases left behind and occupied by U.S. soldiers or their mercenary counterparts, even that's a lie) hardly means that all the pain endured by citizens recently bludgeoned comes to a sudden end. The 5th element, missing from your list is the ENORMOUS karmic score-card... just as it takes time for cancers to develop after cellular tissue gets exposed to radioactive elements, it takes time for karmic blowback to return to its source those lessos sufficient to alter the consciousness that compels the insidious reflex of violence into redundant motion.
It is time for a national accounting, a penitence, for all those slain, all the infrastructure that in many cases is not just ruined, but tainted in toxic debris like depleted Uranium, and all the lost promise, the broken hearts of the living, the lives without parents so many orphans will have to look forward to. What's been done unto the Iraqi people will take generations to heal. And who would blame them if among their ranks a few emerged prepared to act on the impulse of carefully orchestrated retaliation?
Yes, it is so; the suffering that fascist amerika has caused since its inception is now coming full circle. The empire is sliding into the abyss !
They are part of the ONE owners . They are the movers and shakers of our country.
This has been written about clearly by Major General Smedley Butler. His book "War is a Racket" explains in detail how when the big ones are making 7% on their money in the US and they want to make 100% on their money, they start looking for an excuse to start a war. They stalk their prey and the prey are not only those that are being attacked but many that are the attackers. Unwittingly thrown into a conflict that ruins their lives forever in many ways. Either they die, which is probably the best way, or they have their legs blown off or loose both arms and live in an unreal existence for the rest of their lives.
Butlers comments were that the only just war was a defensive war and rightly so. I think that there is not a man or woman that reads this would not fight to protect the country. But to end up killing a million people in Iraq and then have Bush stand up and say that he had been bamboozled by his right wing nut case supporters and that there were really not ever any "weapons of mass destruction"...that is a crime.
A crime against the US and a crime against the civilians of Iraq. And now we are starting again with the same rhetoric about Iran. And after that Syria, then Saudi Arabia, and after about 30 to 50 years we will have all of Israels enemies dead and we ourselves will be trashed. Both outwardly and inwardly. But Israel will be the winner and probably the richest. As they have no one in the fight except their great allies. The suckers of the US. As Bush said on TV...we are going to fight Iraq because we owe it to our good allies and friends, Israel.
We all knew that when the CIA and very well respected inspectors went over to Iraq they came back with the news that there were NO weapons of mass destruction. They were immediately trashed as if they were co-conspirators of the enemy. The media made them look like fools. What in the hell were they doing there anyway....if they can't tell a weapon of mass destruction then they needed to be removed until we can find someone that knows what the hell they are talking about. And so this relentless persecution was installed and we have the final result. I have a deep feeling of shame that we decimated so many people and caused such horror for so many human lives because we were manipulated into us. Shame on us.
This is not to denigrate our soldiers that had to do what they were told. As all soldiers that have to do their duty they did so, and did so without excuse. It is not the soldier but the leadership that needs to be addressed. We have a major problem and the problem is that pirates are parading around in our services that need to be removed. They reap the financial benefits and they are nothing but scoundrels of the first order. Their morality is glass pane deep and the harm they cause world wide because of profit is devastating.
By the way, Smedley Butler was the most decorated Marine ever and was Brig General and a very very well thought of soldier. When he confronted the establishment he was taken apart by the media and after 7 months he was exonerated on his discussions. Read his small book and educate yourself to his opinions. One who knew the deceptive tactics of the Money Machine....The defense department with all their cronies.
Ditto on all of the above. But the line "since shortly after World War II, virtually no borders have changed by force" made me wince. VietNam, split, then reunited, Yugoslavia, shattered by the Anglo-American bankers. Hardly insignificant.
It is breathtaking, shocking, enraging, and finally deeply depressing that Obama would attribute anything heroic to Fallujah, one of the Great Crimes of all time, which continues to this day in the form of horrible infant deformities and cancers.
The is no justice among humans on this planet. None in the past, and none forthcoming. Criminals will continue with their crimes and their paid liars will continue to lie.
Edited for factual content, the president's address to the troops would read:
"Never forget that you are part of an unbroken line..
Vietnam
Afghanistan Nam
Iraq Nam ..."
HooHah!
erroll et al. -
Ditto. The president's exclusion of all reference to Vietnam, and his inclusion of the cities of Fallujah and Khandahar in his unbroken line of heroic American battlefield victories, speaks volumes.
Fallujah was indeed very much a military-macho demo project like the destruction of Guernica during the Spanish civil war. It was all about message sending. You guys dare attack US occupation forces' contractors, kill some, and then display the charred bodies as war trophies, Uncle Sam will smite back the evil doers a hundred fold with righteous, god-like vengeance - leaving thy wives and children and grandchildren to weep should they be lucky enough to survive, the city systematically devastated block by block, the shattered landscape left sown with salt of white phosphorous.
The other thing that should not be overlooked about the Fallujah operation was its timing within the 2004 US election cycle. Bush was running for re-election against Kerry. US forces encircled the city with ominous firepower and implemented a screening process for the civilian locals. Women and children and old men could leave Fallujah but not return. The adult and younger males could not leave. The stage having thus been set, Bush waited until the returns from Ohio came in. Kerry conceded. Then and only then was the command given for the carnage to commence.
The unbroken historical line that I discern runs pretty much from Vietnam to Lebanon to Grenada to Panama to Kuwait to Bosnia to Kabul to Baghdad and on to Tripoli.
None of the people or government regimes of any of those countries meaningfully threatened the security of the United States. Each was a war of choice, not existential necessity. To pretend that the orchestrated war crime of Falluja somehow embodies the spirit of the battle of Midway or the Normandy beaches is insulting, and dangerously delusional thinking.
Bill from Saginaw
I attended a House Appropriations Committee meeting in 2005 where military brass were bragging about bringing Fallujah "in, under budget". Both Dems and Republicans Representatives on the committee were pleased. It appears our military dumped nepalm on 40% of the housing stock in this city of 325,000 and then lit the match. Fiscally conservative HEROISM.
Erroll, Ray, Bill from Sag: All of you have made good and significant points, but I guess I'm the only one who caught the way Obama reinforced the LIE that 911 justified the use of force against Iraq. (3000 dead to 1 million slaughtered represent rather insane odds... even if one believes the lie that this war had provocation.)
From Obama's insidious quote:
"and delivered justice to those who attacked us on 9/11.”
So, here, too, the "Constitutional Scholar" places on the record, a continuation of the big lie that led to the attack on Iraq. Which is the bigger lie, that such a war was justified, that almost all wars become casualties for humanity, that justice has been so badly abridged by the fallacies promoted by the make-war state, or that no one is being held to account for KNOWINGLY processing a war of choice based on Fixed evidence? Oh, and then there's that lie about war being executed to "bring democracy," to a foreign people. With so many lies to choose from, it's tough to know for sure which gets the title for being the Big Lie.
CYGNUS mentioned impeaching Obama in another thread... having acted to enable the Crimes Against Humanity by willfully retaining the Record of Deception definitely makes this president an Accessory to Crimes Against Humanity. (The drone matter... or mass murder, is another matter.) And that Peace Prize? It should be rescinded tout suite!
Obomnable made a point that he wouldn't look back at the crimes of the Bush administration, saying "we" had to look forward. He hasn't bothered to extend this courtesy to Bradley Manning who killed no one according to the Pentagon. Obomnable has already declared Manning guilty and those sitting on the Court martial jury work, report to Obomnable. What do you think the verdict will be, life in prison or execution?
BOGI: I think LIFE in prison, except the sentence will be cut short by one of 3 things:
1. War on our soil, placing into chaos all of the current institutions (including some prisons)
2. Ecological crises that bring The Empire to its knees (and also cause interruptions in services,like prison complexes)
3. Such successful global uprisings as to not only eradicate the current heads of corrupt nations, but also hold THEM to trials... in which case, as was the fate with Nelson Mandela and Lech Walesa, Bradley will be heralded as a hero...carried through the streets, etc.
Because we are literally pivoted on the cusp of massive uncertainty, ANYTHING can happen. While the Disaster Capitalists, acting like the vultures they probably descended from, know how to make expert use of catastrophic times... there is also a positive use for such paradigm-bending occasions.
Because I believe utterly in the underlying rhythm structures of time, I am absolutely convinced that IF mankind can survive the methane contamination (added to CO2 & global warming), a VERY different and FAR more humane & egalitarian society will become the norm, formulated in the years spanning 2020-2025.
I hope Bradley is let out before that time. The next 3 years will be some of the hardest this nation has ever experienced. I should have something up and running (on You tube in 2012) for my justifications for these predictions, added to further elaborations.
sioux -
Much as how they say in real estate location is everything, in parsing presidential speeches context and syntax is everything.
Obama's immediate, face-to-face audience were active duty troops stationed at Fort Bragg, many of whom had served combat tours in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, some of whom were Special Operations forces. By sticking in the insidious phrase "and delivered justice to those who attacked us on 9/11" at the end of that string reference to military campaigns at Valley Forge, World War II, the Cold War, Falluja, and Kandahar, it is perfectly plausible to consider it a specific reference to the SEALS operation that killed Osama bin Laden.
I'm sure the ambiguity of reference was deliberate. No, he wasn't necessarily saying Saddam or the people of Iraq were behind the 9/11 attacks. Folks who wanted to hear that were free to do so, of course. But what Obama was more likely actually referring to was the assassination at Abottabad, what he considers the signature use of "smart" militarism during his first term in the White House.
Rather than weasle words, call it weasle context.
Bill from Saginaw
I always appreciate your honest, sincere & informed views, but don't forget that Obama has proven himself to be a snake with words. I think he was IMPLICITLY reinforcing the same lie that made it possible for Bush-Cheney to set up the scenario that led to the initial war (on Iraq) based on patently false (i.e. fabricated) evidence. I get such a Wally Cleaver feeling about you. Due to your own decency, you project that quality onto others. In this case Obama. (Or that's how I interpret your post.)
About three years ago the attorney I once adored (we broke up in l998) showed up and thought he could mend fences. We went out to lunch in Gainesville and started talking about the coming election. He graduated tops from the law school at the University of Florida, and when we were close, I used to love to have debates with him! Especially when he'd tap my thigh (as we were driving somewhere) and he'd say, "Excellent argument, counselor!" In any case, when Bill (that's his name, too) said "Obama is a great man," based on what he took for the interminable odds he'd overcome in becoming president, he was taken aback when I stated, "That remains to be seen." I was really disappointed by the superficial level of his analysis. It was taken, pabulum style, right off the MSM message boards. He mocked John Edwards' hair as was the current rage among the TV pundit class, etc.
I wonder if he'd still say, with a straight face, given The Record, that Obama is a great man now? (For his political lack of sophistication, among other things, we stopped talking.)
Obama's college education began, as every Columbia College student's does (I know because I was a student there, too), with Homer and the rest of the Eurocentric, patriarchal Core Curriculum, with the Iliad, principally about war, gore, and glory, victory and tragedy, artifice and brutality.
So on one level, when Obama's "delivered justice" means to kill, torture, pillage (and rape comes with these, too, in ancient Athens as in the USA)--and particularly to kill, torture, pillage, rape Eastern or non-Western people, this is not surprising. Lacking commitment to a worldview that sees compassion and sharing as potentially limitlessly powerful, one is deprived of anything but heroic performances as tragic actors in a spectacle signifying nothing.
Absolutely…"unbroken historical line “ in your Government pro Zionists for the big jobs.
Today i have so enjoyed all the people from the USA speaking so truthfully! in"Commons Dreams" about the diabolical state the policies and BSht.that has spewed out of your Pentagon/War/police state machine ..Karma and all..You really do not need the Parliament or congress or any such institution that all your 33 dan level masons whom have forged policy that are so out of sync with how this world is evolving ..Now you want to vote for one or the other party when truthfully nothing will change with any of them you all jolly well know it so why are you wasting time ..they even want to dumb you down now with Internet !!come on focus destroy the system it has BABID CANCER its Gangerous irrepairable its your chance sincerely to make the biggest show of destroying that that destroyed you beautiful way of life.and guys girls old and young get some stamia happening don't get side lined with verbals please thousands millions around the world support you DO IT they come come at you to dominate you hey you are BORN FREE !! REMEMBER> even the the COP MACHINE can be destroyed and those disgusting FEMA facilities christ almighty do it don't vote RE CLAIM AND REINVENT A NEW SYSTEM OF EQUALITY FAIRNESS AND HEALTH COVER FOR ALL.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
Ha ha ha!
This:
""Never forget that you are part of an unbroken line of heroes spanning two centuries — from the colonists who overthrew an empire, to your grandparents and parents who faced down fascism and communism, to you — men and women who fought for the same principles in Fallujah and Kandahar, and delivered justice to those who attacked us on 9/11.”"
would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that we destroyed countries, cities, and the people who resided in them, inflicted permanent damage that can never, ever be undone, and caused those who hate the United States and the West, generally, to hate us even more. What we've done in Iraq and Afghanistan is no different than what we did in Viet Nam and Cambodia, not to mention tons of other places. Who the hell is Obama kidding with his above-mentioned speech. US dominance throughout the world by the toppling of governments that didn't tally up with our interests certainly didn't start with President Obama, but he's sure as hell continuing our gunboat diplomacy foreign policy with gusto.
'And delivered justice to those who attacked us on 9/11' - Thus O-Bomb-em perpetuates the discredited BIG LIE that Saddam was some-how involved in the 9-11 'New Pearl Harbor' Attacks!
And NOW they're alleging that Iran was in cahoots w Al-Qaeda on 9-11! Thus they're using the same Phony Iraqi WMD & Saddam was in Cahoots w Al-qaeda on 9-11 play-book on Iran! 9-11 is like 'The Goose that Keeps Laying Golden Eggs & The Gift that Keeps on Giving...' for these NeoCons / Neo-Liberals!!!
A "Truth Commission" is an Impossibility as long as the government is the battering ram of corporations.
None of the corporate owned parties and none of their members will allow such a commission.
The Truth Commission will only be created by the people who rebuke the corporate parties. At this point, I suspect that is about 3% to 5% of the voters.
If you want the truth, you must stop using the corporate sound system because those microphones take the words put into them and alter them into the message of "greed is good." To hear how your message is corrupted, you must step away from their microphones. Holding on to the corporate microphones is the worst kind of vanity.
Steal my words, please.
In addition, the current economic/political/media system is opposed to truth, especially when that truth must expose the war crimes, environmental crimes, murderous lies, fraud, and all the other depredations they routinely commit "in our name" against people and the planet.
Obama's anti-constitutional National Defense Authorization Act provisions for indefinite detention without trial, including U.S. citizens here, is the next step toward complete tyranny. Arming police with military-level weapons, crushing Occupy sites, and censoring the Internet are all steps in this march toward military dictatorship with a smiley face and media camouflage. It IS happening here, now.
I see it exactly the way you do, ED, and appreciate your clear, incisive analysis.
First, let's dispense with any handwringing over the supposed Big Lie by journalists, pundits, politicians, etc etc who all - either actively or passively - allowed the Biggest of Big Lies - namely, 9/11 - go uninvestigated for the last decade and for a fairy tale narrative to take hold of the national psyche.
Basically, let's cut the crap, people, and face the real music.
Secondly, the ideas of Pinker and Goldstein are so naive as to be embarrassing. As has been pointed out by others, besides the carnage and unspeakable acts of cruelty during the last 100 years two points basically sink their entire horseh*t thesis:
1) Just because war and violence may not be as overt as they were say 60 years ago, don't think 1) violence is declining or 2) this isn't by design. The TPTB have gotten very good at "hiding" violence and as was described by Foucault in Discipline and Punish when the all of society starts to function as a prison - there's that negative freedom again, thanks neoliberals! - there really is no need to make examples of people, groups or even countries through more overt forms of violence. The apparatus is in place to punish them "below board" through starvation, sanction, imprisonment, etc etc.
Is living in a societal prison a form of violence? Why not ask the Palestinians.
2) There are so many horrible weapons capable of doing so much damage so quickly at the present - nuclear, biological, etc - that if even a few of these were to be used Pinker's thesis would be blown to bits in a nanosecond. Just because the world has been collecting its collective breath as to the horrors that these weapons entail let us not think that were are living in a more peaceful time when the detonation of just a few of these weapons would show how hollow Pinker's thesis really is.
We're so peaceful...oops, there's another 10 million dead. Oh well.
Not another conspiracy nut who thinks that 9/11 wasn't blowback.
I'm sick of the (frankly racist) attitude that a small number of Arabs would be incapable of being 75% successful in flying planes into their targets, 3 of which WERE 3 OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST BUILDINGS. If the building is lined up in front of you, you're going to hit it. It's not rocket science. Safely taking off is hard and safely landing is harder. FLYING A PLANE INTO A 110 STORY BUILDING THAT COVERS A CITY BLOCK IS EASY.
It's unbelievable to me that numbskulls have no explanation for why out of 19 "made up" hijackers used in a supposed false flag operation, NOT ONE OF THEM was "planted" to be from Iraq or Afghanistan.
If you believe 9/11 was an inside job then you don't believe in blowback, you don't believe that foreigners want to or can for any reason resist the US. You must think people are pretty OK with our foreign policy. You must think that the Pentagon is invincible and that that actually can protect American citizens in the event of an actual attack, their supposed purpose of "Defense."
I wonder why you think that knocking WTC7 down without even the pretext of a plane flying into it would be necessary or even sane for this plan. I wonder why you think that knocking down buildings with phantom "charges" HOURS LATER, AFTER ALREADY ATTRACTING THE ATTENTION OF THE WORLD'S MEDIA TO THE SITE TO RECORD IT it would be necessary or even sane for this plan. Do the 9/11 conspiracy people have any common sense at all?
The crime is US foreign policy. The crime was using the actual attack of 9/11 - retaliation for our murderous policies in the Middle East - as a pretext for further neo-con plans already in place for the Middle East.
If you're an "actual leftist" with this sort of attitude, then I'm the Pope!
You're repeating the canard favored by PDJ that conflates skepticism for the quickly trumped up Official Story for what came down on 911, with an alleged prejudice towards those of Arab backgrounds. (His favored meme suggests that those who don't buy the official 911 narrative don't think Muslims could have pulled it off. As if that's the issue at all, as opposed to Karl Rove style right wing reasoning.)
AS IF your nonsense, posed as a viable argument to those who wish to PURSUE truth, can explain why our Air Command stood down, why the whole thing (Bush reading at an elementary school) seems so staged; and I'll leave the physics stuff to those more advanced in their understanding on that factor, than I am.
Then, as your fall-back argument, you further suggest that anyone who doesn't buy the Official Narrative is naive to the PREMISE of blowback. We'll all be seeing it in Afghanistan, The Graveyard of Empires, soon enough. We can both fully understand blowback and also see who had the greater motive and opportunity in this instance. The speed with which all the new laws came down the pike to limit civilian liberties was breath-taking, especially when you consider how long it takes Congress to do anything real or substantive in the way of improving citizens' lives.
An ACTUAL Leftist would not take in what OFFICIAL AUTHORITIES state about this matter, particularly in light of the avalanche of lies that has come to follow after it.
A Government that's covered up torture, war crimes, the execution of thousands of citizens, the bankster-bailout heist to its own people, added to an abject avoidance of the responsibility that real defense would entail in preparing the populace for climate chaos through strategically implemented programs is not a government worthy of that trust.. The preponderance of evidence makes clear that this is a government willing to break laws of all sorts to further the interests of the narrow elites it serves. Therefore, the natural position of any ACTUAL thinker would be to question what such a government would advertise as "truth." Were the media not in the hands of special interests, and its messaging not carefully designed by high-paid PR firms and actual propagandists, FAR more people would see through this diabolical charade. One who argues to MAINTAIN IT (as you do) is neither Actual (for he's a liar acting to distort truth) nor a Leftist. He's just another forum PLANT for whom truth means nothing.
Just as the most honest logical stance when it comes to the nature of God is agnostic, for being humbled in the face of what we will never fully understand; the most honest approach to 911 would be calling for a Truth Comission that is NOT beholden to the very interests intent upon a cover-up, inclusive of covering up their own asses. Instead, you seek to berate those who ask for more than their government's already severely perjured word!
To quote what investigative reporter, I. F. Stone declared about governments; "governments lie, everything governments declare is a lie".
The state boldly declares "I, the state, AM the people." It is a lie! Everything the state says it lies. Everything it has it has stolen.---Nietzsche.
That's very long on rhetoric and - as all 9/11 nuts always are - 100% empty on fact.
How about you go back, read what I wrote and actually respond to the points in it.
The US government also states that Arizona is a good place to look for the Grand Canyon. Does that become a false statement because the government lied about other things?
Fortunately, there are probably more "911 nuts" in this forum, than paid stooges like you. And as for debating what you term "facts," it's already been done on numerous occasions in this forum. Those who KNOW the truth don't need to be convinced, nor will your dis-information tactics manage to win them back to the camp of the willfully blind. And those who don't know the truth can look through the CD archives or those sites that specialize in making the inconvenient data available to inquiring minds.
Do you think shutting off conversation on this topic by dutifully accepting the government's official story makes you a credible Leftist? I think people capable of thinking for themselves will see right through you. I've been open and honest about my position on this topic since day 1. And your Grand Canyon analogy is about as compelling as something taken out of the Glenn Beck playbook.
Some of us are educated, you know. The Newt Gingrich-Rush Limbaugh-Grover Norquist vision of reality works best on those who've never left the U.S., read more than 3 books, or barely finished high school.Oh, it's also amenable with those IN uniform...since by the nature of the uniform, they've given up the right to think for themselves in lieu of following orders. I sense you belong to that club.
... sooooo, no attempt to deal with any of what I just argued, then?
If you think I'm a "paid stooge" you seriously need to seek some help. That's the raving of a lunatic. Someone disagrees with you on the internet and the best retort you have is that there's a massive conspiracy to fund people to argue with you on the internet!
"vision of reality works best on those who've never left the U.S., read more than 3 books, or barely finished high school"
1) I was living in the Gulf on 9/11/01. I watched it happen in Arabic at least 9 hours ahead of you. What time zone were you in that day and what language did you watch the news in that day? 2) I am sitting in a room with about 2,000 books as I type this; I've read about half and half are on the to-do list. 3) I have a degree from what is ranked one of the world's top universities which has one of the lowest admission rates in the US. I've lectured - in one case on the Middle East in fact - at a few American universities, including one Ivy League since that seems to be impressive to you. If you really want to have a urinating contest over formal education and credentials you really picked the wrong person in this forum with whom to do that. I don't think the sheepskin makes the argument, mind you, but you're the one claiming that I'm uneducated and you couldn't be more wrong.
Fact: The Bushites hi-jacked their way into the White-House twice,
Fact: The Bushites had planned to attack Afghanistan & Iraq BEFORE 9-11.
Fact: The Bushite EPA LIED about the air-quality in & around 'Ground Zero'. This has lead to hundreds if not Thousands of first-responder illnesses & even Deaths!
Fact: The Bushite Claimed they were going to 'smoke Bin-Laden out his cave' - then 6 months later said they weren't 'that Concerned About him & weren't spending that much time on him'! Also Fact: The FBI never officially said that Bin Laden was wanted for the 9-11 Attacks!
Fact: The Bushites LIED about Saddam's non-existent WMDs & being in Cahoots w Al-Qaeda on 9-11.
Fact: The Busites Lied about Iraq's 'Mission Was Accomplished' in May 2003
Fact: The Bushites LIED that the Iraq War would only cost $80 - $100 Billion [Try $2 - $4 Trillion!]
Fact: The Bushite LIED about using TORTURE!
Fact: The Bushites LIED about being involved in over-throwing Haitian Pres Aristide!
Fact: Brownie did a HELL-A-FIED F-Upped job during the Katrina debacle.
Fact: The Bushites over-hyped 'The Surge is Working' BS!
Fact: The Bushites lied in 2007 - 2008 about the 'Fundamentals of the Econ Are Strong'!
So after telling So Many Lies- Why would so-called 'liberal' Bush Critics just accept without question their 'Official' 9-11 'Conspiracy Theory' that: '19 devout / fanatical yet hard-drink & hard-partying Muslims w box-cutters, many / most who shouldn't have been able to get in or stay in the US & half of them most likely shouldn't have even been allowed on those planes that day, were able to out-wit & out-fly {even though none of them had even flown a jet before & were documented as terrible pilots of single engine propeller planes} the US' $Trillion defense-intel-security network- All while under the command of another Muslim 'Phantom Menace' {whose 'Legend' was recently 'officially' killed off in an Op reminiscent of an Episode of '24'} in an Afghan Cave half way across the World, while he was plugged into a dialysis machine...??!!
Now for some specific 9-11 Facts: WTC-7 was NOT Hit by a plane nor had any large-raging fires yet fell in just 6.5 secs. At 610ft free-fall speed = 6.17secs [dis-regarding air-resistance] thus WTC-7 fell at 95% of free-fall speed - which is simply NOT possible due to fire, structural damage, & pan-cake collapse ALONE!
- Fact: No steel-framed reinforced concrete bldg has EVER Before or Since 9-11- totally collapsed due to structural damage from fire alone!
- Fact: Besides the numerous reports by on-site witnesses including firemen & Police of multiple explosions in WTC 1,2 & 7 after WTC 1 & 2 were hit but before they & later WTC-7 fell- There were statements by the late Peter Jennings [ABC] & Mark Haines [CNBC] & also Arron Brown [CNN] & Dan Rather [CBS] implying &/or out right stating that the collapse of WTC 1, 2 & 7 looked like 'Those images of Bldgs we've seen so much on TV "Which are Deliberately Destroyed by Using Well Placed Dynamite to Knock Them Down"...' [Dan Rather of CBS News commenting on the collapse of WTC-7 on 9-11-2001].
- Fact: CNN's Arron Brown reported the collapse of WTC-7 1hr before WTC-7 actually did collapse & the BBC reported the collapse of WTC-7 ~1/2hr before WTC-7 actually did collapse. In Fact you could actually see WTC-7 in the back-ground as the BBC's Reporter was saying that it had already collapsed. Then about 5-10mins before WTC-7's actual collapse the BBC's live feed was conveniently cut...
- Fact: The 9-11 {c}Omission implicitly admitted the WTC-7's collapse was so inexplicable & baffling that they failed to even mention it in their final report!
- Fact: Nearly all of the steel from WTC 1, 2 & 7's collapse was shipped to China & India & disposed of! Its a serious felony to tamper w a crime scene especially one of mass murder! Rudy Gulliani was a Federal prosecutor before becoming NY-City's mayor - thus he knows very well the serious criminal implications of disposing of key evidence!
Fact: WTC 1, 2 & 7 had hot-spots approaching 2000+ F* under their rubble piles for weeks after 9-11, & witnesses reported that pools of molten steel were in their basements. This after Tens of Thousands of a gallons of water were poured on them to try to extinguish those hot-spots. It is chemically impossible for hydro-carbon O2 fed fires to last that long & burn that hot while under hundreds of thousands of tons of rubble w thousands of gallons of water being continually dumped on them.
- Fact: There has been a peer reviewed scientific report in 2009 of finding active super Hi-Tech Nano-Thermite chip-particles in WTC's dust residue! Thermite burns at 4500+ F* Steel melts at 2700F*. Thermite also does NOT need O2 from air to burn - & is thus used for underwater welding & steel cutting. One of thermite's residues left after it 'Burns' is Molten Iron [FYI: steel is an allow of iron].
And I could name even more verifiable facts that call into question the 'Official' 9-11 'Conspiracy Theory' - But I'll leave at this for now - except to say we're watching an Iraq rerun being pulled on Iran. First the NeoCONS / Neo-Liberals have been falsely claiming Iran has nukes [WMD's again] for nearly most of the past decade. Now they're claiming that Iran was in cahoots w Al-Qaeda on 9-11 [the same LIE the Bush / Cheneyites used to hype up war against Iraq]! If we don't kill-off the real 9-11 myth [IE: the Official 9-11 'Conspiracy Theory'] - These war-mongers will just keep playing the 9-11 'Card' over & over again!
NEWS FLASH, ATTENTION, NEWS FLASH. A judge has declared that it was Iran, not Iraq that planned and/or supported the 911 teerists. IT CAN ALL BE ATTRIBUTED, TO A SPELLING ERROR, Iraq and it should have been Iran all along, the last 10 years of war because of a spelling error 10 years ago. Simultaneously with this judicial decision, Obomnable praises the Military for its victory over Iraq, even though it was a spelling error, Iraq instead of Iran, that made this great victory possible by what Obomnable has declared as the next great generation, all because the wrong country, Iraq, was destroyed due to a spelling error. Oh well, when the country with the self professed greatest military is the history of this solar system has not won a war since the end off WW2 it will claim any victory available, such as Iraq.
IMO: The motivations of so-called 'Liberal - progressives' who insist on pushing Blow-back theory in such a way that they also demean, insult & slander those who suspect there's likely quite a bit more to it than that- as conspiracy nuts / wackos, etc; Their Motivations are Suspect [Just as I became suspicious of the motives of so-called 'Liberals' & alternative news sources which had critiqued Bush's Iraq Invasion as illegal & immoral- but insisted that Obama / Billary / Sue Rice / NATO's assault on Libya was justified as a so-called 'Humanitarian' R2P / Liberation Op]. First claiming & dismissing all 9-11 Truthers are extreme right-wingers Is Blatantly FALSE [and what difference should that make if what they say can be verified]. Furthermore Ron Paul is the foremost politician who pushes the Blow-back theory explanation for 9-11 [for which he takes many insults from his fellow GOPers -&- Other GOPers IE: Colin Powell's ex-chief of staff Col Wikerson- says 9-11 was a combo of blow-back + incompetence]. Do these supposed 'liberal-progressives' think that Ron Paul [or Wilkerson for that matter] is a liberal-progressive?! Don't they also call Paul a right-wing wacko?! And claiming that 9-11 Truthers are somehow bigoted toward Muslims when the 9-11 'New Pearl Harbor' Event has led to the phony 'War on Terror' [effectively a War on Islam & civil liberties] which has fueled the most notoriously anti-Islamic policies & reactions in recent memory - IS Just Plain Pretzel LOGIC! And- Though the so-called Blow-back [+ incompetence] theory explanation for 9-11 is critical of US foreign police in general, The Fact Is That It Tends to Let the Bush / Cheney / NeoCON Cabal Off the Hook, thus Providing Them w {left}Cover & a Convenient Pass!
That's funny, I thought that Chalmers Johnson - who became later in life very anti-war and anti-empire - wrote a SERIES OF BOOKS ON BLOWBACK. He's right wing, is he? And Chomsky wrote a 9/11 book - titled "9/11" as it turns out - which is not conspiracy oriented but rather sets the stage for the blowback. Chomsky is a right winger, is he?
Was Little Bighorn a false flag operation? Was the Tet Offensive a false flag operation? Was the raid on Harper's Ferry a false flag operation? Was the Alamo a false flag operation?
Could it be that sometimes brown people are capable of kicking the crap out of militarized white people? Can you stretch your mind that far? Could it be that the US military can not actually protect Americans in any meaningful way, or do you think they are so foolproof - such flippin' geniuses - that that only conceivable way anyone could attack the US would be if the US government did it..?
I'm breaking my silence to you for a very specific reason. Though you've hurled outrageous insults at me [& all here who disagreed w you concerning 9-11] - relative to my / our sanity, powers of reasoning & truthfulness - perhaps the most Serious Accusation you've hurled at me & those others who disagreed w your 9-11 assessment- Is Anti-Islamic Bigotry!
Well I've found an example of what raw blanket anti-Muslim Bigotry actually sounds like! Go to page 3 on this post & read what poster Gea wrote - Talk about naked anti-Islamic Bigotry - primarily fueled & justified by the 'Official 9-11 Conspiracy Myth'! You may also want to read my response because I just could NOT let that slide!
9/11 conspiracy people are generally lacking in truthfulness, especially intellectual honesty of any form. Many are insane and suffer from delusions that they have special abilities other people do not (including knowing more about physics and engineering and explosives than the people who do these things for a living!), that they see signs and secrets others can't, and that they are so personally important that the government hires people (like me according to SiouxRose) to spend all day arguing with you on the internet.
As far as anti-Muslim bigotry... Well, I've held jobs in two Muslim countries on two continents and at times the majority of my coworkers and friends were Muslims. I've paid money out of my own pocket to visit a gaggle of others. I'm sitting in a room with a few of the Qurans I've been gifted through the years. My experiences in the Islamic world have been largely positive and are likely rather more extensive than 99% of the people who post here. More days than not I buy groceries and other items from local Muslim shopkeepers I've befriended. I've slept in tents with Tunisian Berbers and I've shared a tent in Yosmite with an Arab-American Muslim friend. I've been literally to more mosques than I can recall, in about 10 countries.
I'm an atheist and if you've seen my posts in these forums then you know I am generally lambasting the Christian preachers that are regularly on this site proclaiming the secular Occupy movement as somehow Christian-inspired. In general I have no love of religion but this is hardly limited to Islam; in fact as an American and as a person in a militarized majority-Christian country I feel a sense of moral obligation to critique those people, not people in socities which are not mine.
None of this makes alQaeda diappear. The plain fact of the matter is that there are violent jackass Christians in the world and that there are violent jackass Muslims in the world. The latter actually exist - of course they do, there are a billion Muslims mostly in neocolonial societies - and they have not without some justification attempted to fight our empire.
What I find to be bigoted beyond belief is the notion that brown people aren't smart enough, after logging hours and days in flight simulators, to fly airplanes into the world's largest buildings, when all this requires is keeping the building in front of you.
It sounds as if your ducking or even still justifying your spurious accusations that just because someone doesn't buy into the 'Official 9-11 Conspiracy Myth' - you can then dubiously classify them as anti-Islamic. My question to you is Simple - Did you read what that person GEA wrote & do you have a response?? - Because that is beyond any doubt Naked Anti-Islamic Bigotry - primarily using 9-11 as justification for such a Racist attitude! Thus 9-11 has been used by the NeoCONS / Neo-Liberals to justify the most anti-Islam military actions, policies, attitudes [like what that GEA person expressed], & the roll-out of the Police-State apparatus! This is why The BIG 9-11 LIE must be challenged & 9-11 Truth Must be told- if there is to be any chance to stop this War on Islam [IE: War on Terror] & assault on Civil Liberties!
That would be "you're ducking." I don't trust that someone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're" is competent to be arguing physics and engineering points against accredited physicists and engineers. You display the sloppy and paranoid mind of the conspiracy hack, and it's irksome that you people will hijack (no pun intended) thread after thread about real problems in the real world and inject your disempowering DaVinci Code-level fantasies into them.
And I'm not ducking anything. What you need to understand is that I've lived in the Middle East, including during most of 2001 and during 9/11, that I've spent years in Islamic societies, and that Arabs themselves were aware of (and in some cases support) al Qaeda. People were to an extent understanding of and supportive of an Islamic, Arab-led group taking some concrete action against our support of Israel and our support of royalty and dictators in the region.
The government of the UAE immediately assumed that its citizens were involved in the attack and therefore went to a great deal of trouble to shelter (literally) and transport me and many other westerners at their expense as a gesture of goodwill. I was told directly by Emirati government officials the whys and hows of this program and accepted their hospitality and protection.
You derive your paranoid "facts" 12th-hand and give every impression of someone who has not ever been to the MIddle East and likely struggled to pass geometry, assuming you took it.
The constant insistance that these guys "could not have" pulled off this actually pretty simple plan is highly racist. You're assuming that brown people can't fly airplanes well enough to crash them and that white militarized America is somehow impervious to attack because the Pentagon can actually do everything they say they can do in their press releases.
So you still insist on hurling juvenile insults, denying [or even falsifying] facts, & then continue to make the your most serious unfounded accusation that- ALL those who question the 'Official 9-11 Conspiracy Theory' are some-how anti-Muslim Racists! Yet when someone [GEA on pg 3 of this article's comment section] makes BLATANT & UnMistakable Anti-Islamic / Racist Statements [which I factually & historically refuted]- Your response to what GEA Wrote IS } 'I don't agree with most of what this guy typed, BUT He's RIGHT About SomeThings. His 'SEEMS' to be a Hyperbolic and MisPlaced Response to REALITY That You Deny...' {!!!
Then you insist that you're a US Expert on the Mid-East [implying you must know far more about the Geo-Politics of that region than anyone here who disagrees w your 9-11 Blow-Back theory]- Who Just HAPPENED to be in Saudi Arabia [the land where Bin Laden & 17 of the 19 alleged 9-11 hi-jackers supposedly came from] ON 9-11??!!
And then you say: } ' That a small group of Islamic radicals were able to punk the Pentagon and attack the financial and military centers of the empire. I should think that an actual left person would be in some ways heartened by that...' {
What exactly are you implying by this in this post 9-11 age of Phony 'War on Terror' FBI entrapments using agent provocateurs??!!
I really do have to end this now because Sioux-Rose's initial assessment of you is likely correct!!!
First off you too did not address any of the points I made above. Second, you need to read the Manuel Garcia Jr. (he's an engineer - are you?) "Physics of 9/11" series on CounterPunch. Is CounterPunch right wing? Do they support the government? Do they support the war on terror?
You appear to be as bad at science as you are at logic. If the planes were cover for blowing up buildings, what WOULD OR COULD POSSIBLY BE the point of blowing up WTC7 too? The fact that building caught fire and collapsed all by itself should rule out a false flag operation. It simply doesn't make any sense for anyone in government to say "Well, we could knock down the towers and attack the Pentagon, sure, and that might peeve people a bit ... but if you REALLY want to get Americans lathered up for war, the one building that MUST BE ATTACKED is the MOST BELOVED BUILDING IN AMERICA - WORLD TRADE CENTER NUMBER SEVEN!"
How does that scenario begin to make any sense at all?
Not a single Iranian, Iraqi nor Afghani hijacker either. Might not AT LEAST ONE of the 19 be planted WITH SOME SORT OF "EVIDENCE" that they were linked to ANY of those places if this were the purpose of the attack?
First You ask for facts, so I gave you a whole lists of verifiable facts that challenge the 'Official 9-11 Conspiracy Theory', but that's NOT really what you want [you haven't refuted even one fact that I've laid out to you] So now you demand that I speculate. Why fly planes into WTC 1 & 2 if they were going to control demolition them & why take down WTC-7? MY answer is simple - I don't know why & I refuse to speculate w you why, but I surely don't buy that Bushite crap that 'They attacked us because They Hate Us for Our Freedoms' BS- Especially after the Bushite NeoCONS rolled out that {un}Patriot Act - using 9-11 & their phony 'War on Terror' as an excuse to start taking away our civil-liberties !
But here's a few other facts that might give a clue:
'Lucky' Larry Silverstein bought the WTC lease a few months before 9-11 for a reported $100,000,000 [some report that he actually personally only put up $10 - $20million of that]. He bought an insurance policy which specifically covered acts of Terrorism worth up to $3.5 Billion in case of irreparable damage. After 9-11 Silverstein pressed for double indemnity claiming that because both WTC 1 & 2 were hit by planes & totally destroyed - that was in effect 2 Acts of Terrorism! His final pay-out is reported to have been $4.5 - $7BILLION! Thats at-least 45Xs - 70Xs on his $100,000,000 investment [or 450Xs - 700Xs if he actually only put up $10 Million]! Now Thats what I call 'MAKING A KILLING'!!! [FYI: Mike Mukasey who was a personal acquaintance of Silverstein's presided over the case. Mukasey later became Bush's AG]
No I don't know about Manuel Garcia & yes I do have an engineering degree. Have you heard of PhD Physicist Dr Steven Jones, or PhD Chemist Dr Niels H. Harrit, or Professional Chemist & ex UL Site Mngr Kevin Ryan, or Aeronautical & Nuclear Engr & ex Air-Force Col-Pilot Dr Bob Bowman, or Professionally Licensed Architect Richard Gage, etc??!! Or how about the late Mr Barry Jennings who arrived at Rudy Gulliani's emergency bunker on the 23 flr of WTC-7 around 9am [prior to WTC 2 being hit] to find it had been already been evacuated- quick, fast & in a hurry! So he called to find out what was up & was told to get the hell out of the bunker & WTC-7 immediately! So Mr Jennings & a Mr Hess ran down the stairs till they got to the 6th floor where a huge explosion in WTC-7 took out stair-way from 6 floor on down! Thus Mr Jenning & Mr Hess were trapped in WTC-7 till sometime past 12pm [IE: for at-least 3hrs]. Mr Jennings is documented as witnessing multiple explosions in WTC-7 thru out his ordeal. Thus he reported that these explosions in WTC-7 began BEFORE WTC 1 & 2 Collapsed & continued up until he was rescued around 12:30pm [that's 5 hrs before WTC-7 fell]!
Your quote >' How does the 9-11 scenario make any sense at all? Not a single Iranian, Iraqi nor Afghani hijacker...'<
That's Exactly the Point- The Official 9-11 scenario Does NOT Make ANY Sense! 19 alleged hi-jackers - 15 supposedly were Saudi -including alleged master mind Osama bin Laden + 2 from the United Emirates [a Saudi-Arabian sub-kingdom], plus the alleged lead hi-jacker Atta was Egyptian along w alleged Al-Qaeda number 2 [now 'officially' number one] al-Zawahiri... Yet the phony War on terror didn't focus on the Saudis or Egyptians - in fact the Bushites & 9-11 {c}Omission went out of their way to obscure any tracks pointing to the Saudis! But guess what the Saudis & Egyptians are the US' Most Important Arab Allies- including close econ, military, & Intelligence [ala the CIA] links! But Since we're name dropping here's another name for you- Mike Springman- former head of the US visa bureau in Jeddah Sadi Arabia. Mr Springman reports that the CIA over-rode his visa rejections, over his objections, for a number of suspicious Saudis who he suspected were Al-Qaeda [maybe thats how these guys got in / stayed in the US- which should have NEVER Happened]!
So though the Bushite / NeoCONS claimed that nearly ALL of the 9-11 key bad guys came from either Saudi Arabia & Egypt, some how they [& now the O-bomb-em / Biden / Billary / neo-Liberals] used / are using that as an excuse to attack Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, & threatening to attack Syria & Iran - when NOT ONE 9-11 hi-jacker / top Al-Qaeda came from any of those places?! You are SO Right about that one - That Makes NO DAMNED Sense At ALL!
But now that you've dropped the names on Alex Cockburn, Chomsky, & the late Chalmers Johnson on me [So am I supposed to be intimidated]- I'm clear about your 9-11 {non}Position IE: deny the evidence & call anyone skeptical of the Bushites 'Official' 9-11 'Conspiracy Theory [myth]' some kind of wacko - Guess what you [& they] sound just like Bill O-Reily & Sean Hannity on that one! Cockburn, Chomski, & Johnson, etc have been right about many things, but that doesn't mean they're infallible!
" a whole lists of verifiable facts"
You typed out a rambling collection of lunacy. Not a single thing you state is "verifiable", although much of it is "certifiable." It frightens me to think that a large precentage of the so-called "left" is so math illiterate and science illiterate and histocically blind and logic-incapable that you can fall for the same paranoid fantasies as right wing militia morons, who are also convinced that the US government is behind 9/11.
"But now that you've dropped the names on Alex Cockburn..."
No, I didn't mention Cockburn at all. Did you actually read anything I wrote? I did mention Manuel Garcia Jr., who is a leftie engineer who attempted in a three-part series to explain to dolts like you how physics works. and worked on 9/1//01. Did you read any of that at all before trashing it here?
"MY answer is simple - I don't know why & I refuse to speculate w you why"
That's quite a hypothesis you have there! A major portion of your argument is that the collapse of WTC7 is fishy, and when someone asks why it would matter at all why WTC7 would be attacked after blowing up the famous buildings you "don't know why & I refuse to speculate w you why." Amazing. You're 100% sure it happened and you're 100% sure it's a link to the Master Plan, but you ""don't know why & I refuse to speculate w you why."
I'm going to end this now because its obvious that your point here is NOT to Have an Honest Discussion about FACTS but to Trade Juvenile INSULTS, Not just w Me but w Anyone- here & else-where- who questions the Bushite / NeoCON's 'Official '9-11 Conspiracy Theory'! You moan & complain that 'I didn't mention Cockburn' but You referred me to his Counter-Punch web-site when you brought up that Garcia fellow [who in 2006- which is before Mr Barry Jennings went on record in 2007 - 2008 & before Drs Steven Jones & Niels Harrit's et-al peer-reviewed scientific report on finding hi-tech Nano-Thermite chip-particles in WTC dust residue in 2009, & before the advent of Architect Rich Gage's 'Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth' - did an article on Cockburn's Counter-Punch that essentially regurgitated NIST's 2006 preliminary report {FYI: NIST is a branch of the Commerce Dept meaning it was under the control of the Bushite cabinet} which wasn't even the final NIST report- that came out in 2008]. You ask me do I have training in engineering & science, I tell you that I in fact do - then you proceed to call me >'math illiterate and science illiterate and historically blind and logic-incapable'< - yet you haven't even attempted to honestly refute even one fact that I've listed. This is straight out of the FOX Noise / Bill O-Reilly / Sean Hannity play book, of when you can't make a fact based argument - just scream loud that those you disagree w are just a bunch of morons. I'm thru w you!
You're going to "end this now" because you have a bag full of nothing, and you know it.
It's actually the "FOX Noise / Bill O-Reilly / Sean Hannity play book" that says that brown people can't retaliate and that they have no reason to. It's the "FOX Noise / Bill O-Reilly / Sean Hannity play book" that claims that the US military is actually capable of and interested in protecting Americans.
WTC 7 housed numerous files related to government investigations of banks accused of insider trading.
From The National Law Journal, September 17, 2001:
"The SEC has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency's major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom.
The EEOC said documents from about 45 active cases were missing and could not be easily retrieved from any backup system. One of these cases was a sexual harassment charge filed on Sept. 10 against Morgan Stanley, one of the prime corporate victims of the World Trade Center disaster."
So you think that instead of merely blowing up the building like in Oklahoma City, or instead of arson, or instead of destroying the files themselves, the LOGICAL ROUTE for destroying said files was:
- to make up not one but FOUR hijackings
AND
- to crash a plane in rural Pennsylvania
AND
- to attack the Pentagon with a missile
AND
- to blow up WTC 1 AND WTC 2, after first getting the eyes and ears of the world's media pointed to the buildings
AND
- to blow up what you suggest here was the actual target, WTC7 - WITHOUT ANY CLAIM THAT A PLANE HIT IT AS A COVER STORY
DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL?!
I swear the people on these boards are making Republicans seem like geniuses in comparison.
If 9/11 was not a US false-flag operation, it would be an exception to the rule. The people who are the "nuts" are those that ignore the very real probability that 9/11 was an inside job.
What conceivable "rule" is being referenced?