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Why Lists of Demands Don’t Matter in Zuccotti Park
In some ways, Zuccotti Park, the campsite, the Ground Zero, for the Occupy Wall Street protests couldn’t be more modest. It’s no Tahrir Square, but a postage-stamp-sized plaza at the bottom of Manhattan only blocks from Wall Street. And if you arrive before noon, you’re greeted not by vast crowds, but by air mattresses, a sea of blue and green tarps, a couple of information tables, some enthusiastic drummers, enough signs with slogans for anything you care to support (“Too big to fail is too big to allow,” “The American Dream: You have to be asleep to believe it,” “There’s no state like no state,” etc.), and small groups of polite, eager, well-organized young people, wandering, cleaning, doling out contributed food, dealing with the press, or sitting in circles on the concrete, backpacks strewn about, discussing. If it were the 1960s, it might easily be a hippie encampment.
But don’t be fooled. Not only does the park begin to fill fast and the conversation become ever more animated, but this movement already spreading across the country (and even globally) looks like the real McCoy, something new and hopeful in degraded times. Of the demonstrators I spoke with, several had hitchhiked to New York -- one had simply quit her job -- to be present. Inspired by Tunisians, Egyptians, Spaniards, and Wisconsinites, in a country largely demobilized these last years, they recognized what matters when they saw it. As one young woman told me, “A lot of people in my generation felt we were going to witness something really big -- and I think this is it!”
They may not be the perfect size and shape for the movement of everyone’s dreams, but they’re here and, right now, that says the world. (photo: bogieharmond)
It may be. The last time we saw a moment like this globally was 1968. (Other dates, like 1848 in Europe and 1919 in China, when the young took the lead in a previously dead world, also come to mind.) It’s the moment when the blood stirs and the young, unable to bear the state of their country or the world, hit the streets with the urge to take the fate of humankind in their own hands.
It’s always unexpected. No one predicted Tahrir Square. No one imagined tens of thousands of young Syrians, weaponless, facing the military might of the state. No one expected the protests in Wisconsin. No one, myself included, imagined that young Americans, so seemingly somnolent as things went from bad to worse, would launch such a spreading movement, and -- most important of all -- decide not to go home. (At the last demonstration I attended in New York City in the spring, the median age was probably 55.)
The Tea Party movement has, until now, gotten the headlines for its anger, in part because the well-funded right wing poured money into the Tea Party name, but it’s an aging movement. Whatever it does, in pure actuarial terms it's likely to represent an ending, not a beginning. Occupy Wall Street could, on the other hand, be the beginning of something, even if no one in it knows what the future has in store or perhaps what their movement is all about -- a strength of theirs, by the way, not their weakness.
It’s true, as many have pointed out, that they don’t have a list of well thought out demands, but the demand to have such a list is just their elders trying to bring them to heel. The fact is, they don’t have to know just what they’re doing, any more than a writer or filmmaker has to understand the book being written or the film shot. It’s not a necessity. It’s not the price of admission. If there’s one thing that’s obvious and heartening, as my friend, the novelist Beverly Gologorsky, said to me while we oldsters circumnavigated the park, “The overwhelming feeling I have is that no one here is planning to go home any time soon.”
Never have they been more needed. Theirs is certainly a movement, like the ones in the Middle East, inspired in part by economic disaster and aimed at an airless political as well as corporate/financial system controlled by the 1% left out of the signs in the park hailing the 99% of Americans whom Occupy Wall Street hopes to represent. It’s a world set on screwing just about everyone in that vast cohort of Americans without compunction, shame, or even, these days, plausible deniability.
The young face a failing world -- and if you want the proof of just how thoroughly it's failed all of us in recent years, check out TomDispatch Associate Editor Andy Kroll’s “Flat-Lining the Middle Class, Economic Numbers to Die For.” Nowhere else can you find assembled such a range of evidence of an American world on the decline, one which doesn’t work and shows no sign of being capable of righting itself.
If, on a planet in crisis, their government has repeatedly failed them, the Wall Street demonstrators deserve a small, hopeful cheer for their efforts. They may not be the perfect size and shape for the movement of everyone’s dreams, but they’re here and, right now, that says the world.
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45 Comments so far
Show AllI am stunned to see Tom Engelhardt say the protestor's "don't have to know just what they're doing" indicating he is confirming the MSM and Right Wing charge that these are a bunch of nut's that are just there to party.
He say's they don't have a list of demand's, yet I have seen a couple.
This and other article's I have seen strike me as trying to justify what they are doing on Wall Street by agreeing with the Right Wing and claiming it doesn't matter. Bull....
Toms an alright guy, but he's one of the regular suspects. Even they don't get it and they'll piss this flame away if they get too involved and try to amp it up. We've seen way too many produced/homogenized 'protests' in the past 10 years under their stewardship go belly-up and flatline. No reason not to be excited, just let this organic crop of protesters grow. No need for 'fertilizer' - if you get my drift.
"The Tea Party movement has, until now, gotten the headlines for its anger, in part because the well-funded right wing poured money into the Tea Party name, but it’s an aging movement." Its been hinted that this movement on wall street has its own financial backing as well. The Professional Left has been wetting its pants wanting its very own TP, this is an opportunity (for them) to foster more division, not really build a populist movement.
I hope they leave it the fuck alone and let authenticity feed its growth.
I think you may be right. I probably mispoke in my first sentence because I don't think they need a list or anything else, though I have seen a few short "lists" held up. I just felt agreeing with the Right to explain the protest was wrong as he did.
Thank you for your comment.
You obviously don't understand a word he's saying. To link Engelhardt with the right wing and the MSM is to not have ever understood anything he says, or to have never read him before. The point is, a list of demands isn't relevant to what OWS is about right now. Maybe you've seen a couple, but that's the whole point. A couple isn't a list, and it doesn't matter. What they represent matters, and they are THERE, which matters a lot. Engelhardt isn't implying they're there to "party" and act like a bunch of blissed out hippies. You're making ignorant inferences. Tom gets what this is all about. See if you can. (Also, try to learn that plural nouns don't take apostrophes.)
I don't understand "in your opinion" Shame you don't have manner's enough to refrain from calling someone "ignorant" It's a sign of immaturity to require that to make a point.
"plural nouns don't take apostrophes." This isn't a spelling bee nor is it an exam, if thats what you feel is most important or if you need to comment on something like that to make yourself feel superior, feel free.
Rudeness is usually answered with rudeness, something you might consider for the future.
When you read something and completely misinterpret it, like you did with Engelhardt's piece, you exhibit a certain sort of ignorance, the reading comprehension sort. And it doesn't have to be a spelling bee or exam to get simply the basics of how the language works. Such as, plurals and past tense verbs don't take apostrophes. It doesn't get any more basic than that. But I understand: having that pointed out to you is "rudeness" and "bad manner's" [sic]. Even though it's perfectly fine for you to twist Engelhardt's message into unrecognizable shapes because it went right over your head. Nothing rude about that.
@alugilac: "This isn't a spelling bee nor is it an exam,..."
No, this is not a spelling bee, nor is it a hair splitting, but I would expect you and everyone else to mind their English for the benefit of us, people of non-English speaking origin. You wouldn't believe how confusing a redundant apostrophe or a missing comma might be.
Besides, a well expressed thought - even if not agreeable - is always a joy to the reader. Can you do that for all of us?
I think he's absolutely right. Afaics, in terms of understanding reality and having a point of view or ideology that is not a creation of the current official "liberal" class, Western youth is in a very bad position now, and it takes time to come up with this stuff and to learn enough of the world to be able to understand it. When the most progressive stuff you have general access to are Jon Stewart's and Stephen Colbert's comedy shows, very much standard liberal establishment crap, it will take some time to get a real understanding and collect your thoughts.
Traditional left wing thinking (like ISR or Monthly Review etc), even if it's in no way behind the times or obsolete, just the opposite, is not very well known and not integrated into culture at all, especially with young people. Chomsky's name is probably a curse word for "well educated" youth ("he may have been a genius linguist but..."), no one's heard of Paul Baran or Sweezy, and let's not even mention Marx or Engels. Although tbh there are some awesome and popular younger people like Naomi Klein. But in general, politics itself is nowadays not something that you are interested in when you're young, and children's and youths' lives are so deeply embedded into capitalism and consumerism that it's getting more and more difficult to even imagine alternatives. Politics is just not what young people are interested in (through no fault of their own btw). It takes a tremendous amount of effort (and a bit of luck) to overcome this crap and this looks to me like a good start.
A big problem for me is that it's still about individual material interests, which can be hijacked and distorted pretty easily, but at least there is some consciousness of the depth and real root of the problem (unlike with the London riots, which imo reflect the sad, sad state of the consciousness of the British working class and youth).
My point is probably that socialism and left wing thinking in general is so completely erased from Western thought, it's so completely inundated with consumerism, competition and the idea of "winning", and young people are so far from reality in general (economic or physical), so much more interested in made up stuff, that it's impossible and even imo bad intentioned to expect a well thought out ideology and a list of demands.
A lot young people really do not know what they're complaining about - but this doesn't make them wrong at all. In fact, it just means that the older generations have denied them the knowledge and power to be conscious about their own situation and have thoroughly soaked them through with idiotic capitalist, consumerist, fake "individualist" ideology and they have to break out of this shit and learn by themselves.
Once again, I don't expect them to have any list of demands for the media's consumption. I just thought agreeing with the Right Wing's critique was playing right into their hands. And frankly, I don't feel they need any explanation or list of demands to be there and effectively say just by their presence, that this stinks and we want it changed.
Thanks for your thoughts.
hey, Atomsk!
you say:
~ A lot young people really do not know what they're complaining about - but this doesn't make them wrong at all. In fact, it just means that the older generations have denied them the knowledge and power to be conscious about their own situation and have thoroughly soaked them through with idiotic capitalist, consumerist, fake "individualist" ideology and they have to break out of this shit and learn by themselves. ~
I couldn't agree more...it is the older members of our society that must stand up, now, and admit their own roles in propogating the horrors that have delivered us, and our planet, to the brink of disaster...
where are the older voices speaking to the fraudulence of our government, and the industrial devastation caused by our lifestyle? where are those counseling against the economic structures, and the violent underpinnings, that drive such devastation?
who, from wisdom, speaks to sacrifice, rather than desire? who, from experience, urges less, rather than more?
anyway, good statement...
This pretty much explains what is happening and more importantly why it is happening ... http://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/10/04
He says the last time we saw a global moment like this was 1968, but I seem to remember pretty strong global solidarity from around 1999-2001, at the height of the anti-corporate globalization movement. For that matter, what about the massive antiwar demonstrations around the world from 2002-2004?
It seems what we are seeing now is just the rejuvenation or continuation of those global solidarity movements. Seeing them as interconnected will raise our political consciousness and understanding, it seems to me. BTW, if OWS limit their demands, they will also limit participation from key constituencies, such as immigrants.
True, and the last point is essential.
At the protest I went to today a VERY large % of the passing cabbies - the vast majority of whom are African and Asian immigrants - lent supportive honks and waves. Just FYI.
Get the lobbyists out of the government. They own the politicians who have legalized Wall Street to legally steal from the middle-class while they send their profits off-shore to avoid taxes. Get a president who will not waste trillions on war while cutting funding for education and health care. Get a media that is not corporate owned and controlled. Take back the Constitution. The citizen that the Supreme Court gave birth to is the child of the rich and they will do everything they can do to give their son a better life. Even at the expense of the middle-class.
>>Get the lobbyists out of the government. They own the politicians who have legalized Wall Street to legally steal from the middle-class while they send their profits off-shore to avoid taxes.<<
Lobbyists also actually write the laws.
Superior comment by since1492 with an excellent point by dkshaw
litmus test...Tom fails...but, then, Tom fails the Big One, too...
from the article:
~ The fact is, they don’t have to know just what they’re doing, any more than a writer or filmmaker has to understand the book being written or the film shot. It’s not a necessity. ~
what a moron...
Bullshit. Just because you agree with the protesters (as he does), it doesn't mean they know exactly what they're doing. It's pretty clear that they don't. And it's completely stupid to expect them to. And yes, it is pretty much enough for them, definitely at this point in time, to feel that there's something wrong and give expression to their hunch. You can't come up with counterpoints to decades of indoctrination and propaganda in two fucking weeks - if you think you can, you're worse than mistaken.
In addition to this, you're not even making a point. You just say he "fails" and offer no reason or argument or explanation - and then go on and call him a moron. FFS think before you spout this kind of crap, or at least make a fucking point.
I don't agree with the protesters...
I am thoroughly suspect of both their motivation, and their intelligence...
you say:
~ FFS think before you spout this kind of crap, or at least make a fucking point. ~
this is the funniest! we're supposed to worship an entire movement precisely BECAUSE it refuses to make a point, Tom writes a whole piece to support this idiocy, yet you criticize me of the same, citing it as a weakness...
which is it? is being utterly pointless a strategy, or a failure?
"I don't need to make a point...I'm Occupying..."
what? it only works in New York?
Tom writes an entire article and makes no point...
that's my point...
these marchers have no point...
that's my point...
we worship them for 'not going home'? why would they?
no one's filming them, or congratulating them, or buying them free pizzas at home...
there is no political solution to our problems...these people are not claiming any interest in anything...do they even connect their parents' homes and money with the dying planet? why would I endorse their cause if they cannot elucidate their own role in this planet's destruction, and how violent murder and resource theft rule this place, and what they plan to do about that?
having ranted, I actually do have a point, Atomsk...
there is only so much time left before a couple of things are certain: our ecology collapses, or we fall under terminal drone control...before too long, now, if we do not change drastically, both are certain...
my point is to take the planet back from both death and control by refusing to participate in the economy, refusing to recognize title, and dismantling the industrial and energy infrastructures...
obviously, I cannot do this alone, as there will be reprisal, so am seeking like-minded people...I suggest this action take place, around the world, on September 22, 2012...
this would not be a temporary protest, nor a fixed-duration demonstration...it would be forever...
it would require no travel, as it will occur where you are...
you will either be doing it, or it will be done to you...
the political arena will cease to be relevant, as will property lines...
what side will you be fighting on in the coming war?
for jobs, or for the planet?
how long do you intend to be radiated, or watch your mountains blown apart, or your oceans poisoned and acidified, or your skies emptied of their oxygen?
how long do you think it will be before the drones appear over your town?
Damn. that was good. Next time I want to make a point, I'm calling you.
Dubet, go take a long swim and then find a vast desert, sit down and meditate. You are not alone and September 22 will be here soon enough.
thank you, brother...I relax by writing music and painting, and enjoy them very much...
the world is becoming increasingly challenging for me to tolerate, I must admit...
watching rain fall that I know is laden with the spittle of the Water Dragons of Fukushima is enough to get me really mad, and finding most around me to be more concerned with continuing what is, and only their pet portion, than facing what will be, and contemplating different ways of living, that exasperation can be a regular experience...
when does the deteriorating condition of the living world, of which we are all part, become desperate enough to make fundamental changes? what if that time arrives, and most are still not ready to make such changes?
see you...
I think this wallowing in self-righteous egoistical weltschmerz, content with knowing better than others is not exactly a good and moral approach. Maybe it has something to do with age, although I don't know how old you are.
what one knows is not what I am discussing...
I am discussing what one tolerates...
I am 48...if you believe that means I have more experience than someone 20, and may have more wisdom as a result, I agree...
you seem reluctant to address how product is torn from the fragile surface of our only planet, via the murder and enslavement of populations and the devastation of lands, preferring instead to insult me for mentioning such a thing...
I am not asking whether you know of it, nor bragging that I do...
I am asking how long you will tolerate it...
you mention good and moral...what interesting words...
is it good and moral to work for the gas company though it means poisoning your own family's well?
to work the drilling rig in the Gulf that leads to the death of your son when he simply goes swimming?
to salute the drone with the American flag on it as it rises above your neighborhood school?
why can you not address the world between the house and the car? the one outside, where the toxic rain falls on the plants and animals? and us...
"you seem reluctant to address how product is torn from the fragile surface of our only planet, via the murder and enslavement of populations and the devastation of lands, preferring instead to insult me for mentioning such a thing..."
I'm absolutely not reluctant to do that, it's just irrelevant in this discussion. I'm also not insulting you for this reason at all, mainly because I agree with everything you're saying - except your disdain for the young people demonstrating.
"is it good and moral to work for the gas company though it means poisoning your own family's well?
to work the drilling rig in the Gulf that leads to the death of your son when he simply goes swimming?
to salute the drone with the American flag on it as it rises above your neighborhood school?"
Do not change the subject. I hate all of this shit. And OWS is probably one of the best chances for young people, constantly soaked in media and technology, to recognise this and start to hate it as well. That they do not see this yet is not their fault and no reason for being "suspect of their intelligence and motivation" (ie. indirectly calling them stupid and some sort of bad person).
"why can you not address the world between the house and the car? the one outside, where the toxic rain falls on the plants and animals? and us..."
A lot of young people don't see the connections (but tbh maybe I don't see them correctly either), but this doesn't mean that they will never be able to see it or that what they're doing now, mostly stemming from their youth, is "suspect".
They mostly seem to be people who are only now coming to political consciousness. Give them some fucking TIME to understand what's going on, and help them ffs, because they need it.
Your point seems to mostly be "it's worthless because they understand less of the issues than I". I don't like that. These are people who are actually doing something NOW. Even if your understanding is deeper, you shouldn't use that just to feel superior and to denigrate what they are doing.
I mean, I never heard Chomsky or Zinn say anything like that, anything to discourage people from doing this kind of stuff, because it's not perfect. In fact, they always tried to help and lend their support to them. Going against the flow is hard work, and a lot of people only find small issues and disagreements and first and only go towards full understanding in time, and these people seem to be pretty young.
the living world is in peril...one cannot do anything without it...
not even protest...
Yep. It might even be too late. But it wasn't these youngsters who fucked it up and it's downright stupid to expect them to understand the entire depth of the situation and to have a complete, universal plan for solution. And if it's not too late, this may be the start of something good. I mean, I have no idea what you're planning to do by yourself, but forgive me if I think that the OWS approach has a bit more promise.
Our politicians along with our media, assume their purpose is to be the priesthood of capitalism.
Remember your history lessons: "Taxation without representation"
That's what we are living with. The 1% and the corporations have representation, the rest of us 99% get the taxation.
My agenda: 1. FDR's unrealized Economic Bill of Rights http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=effDfpKYcVo 2. Direct democracy to KEEP what we win by keeping the people in power. The best project for direct democracy is led by Mike Gravel: http://Vote.org
You don't have to know what you are doing to make a difference. All you have to know is that change is needed; that we need to focus our attention on what's wrong and begin to look and see what we can do about it. Thoughtful people who focus their attention on problems and begin to look for solutions don't need to know, and won't know what those solutions are in the beginning... but it's a start and you can't accomplish anything until you begin... like this... http://www.gpln.com/whatwewant.htm
It's their movement and their moment to change their world. We (and I speak of those who remember/were part of protests of the 1950s and 60s) don't have to understand or like it, and we'd better get out of the way both figuratively and literally. If they want advice, they'll ask for it. It's time for us to step aside and stop fancying ourselves their leaders. We can and should support them, but basically it's their fight, and they'll find their own way.
So, we're supposed to have pre-packaged answers for everything? Like a group of MBAs who are trained to put out a new product with a prepared propaganda campaign? Occupy Wall Streeters are attempting to live an organic process from which an agenda will emerge--unlike the Tea Partiers who were handed a pre-packaged set of demands by the oligarchs that financed and dreamed up that group. Go away with your demands for a pre-packaged set of demands. You are the problem.
Exactly, excellent post. Expectations are very much shaped by this fake and disgusting "professionalism" approach. No idea who you are aiming this "go away" stuff with, but you are completely right. I think that not giving time for this movement to come up with a program or whatever organically but demanding immediate answers to these age-old problems is pretty fucked up too. Sadly I think a lot of people there will also accept this line of thinking and I'm not sure this'll be good for the movement.
Flat-Lining the Middle Class, Economic Numbers to Die For.
Good article Tom Engelhardt!!
99 percent - one percent - us - and them - new words for a new world
That's the point, along with - this system is unfair - unjust - and unsustainable.
I'm all for the OWSERS - especially because they are young, and full of beans.
Manysummits
======
the demands are simple, behave like you made it past kindergarten. share, don't lie cheat and steal. don't litter, stop screwing everybody and the biosphere.
The specific grievances and demands have been sent in millions upon millions of petitions and letters we send to our mis-representatives, they've been expressed by thousands of actions, marches, vigils, presentations, testimonies, etc. They are many, they are mostly intertwined.
and if Hartman would pay a little closer attention, the myriad of grievances are being expressed on signs and at the podium in Liberty Square. The grievances and demands should be obvious to anyone paying any attention.
Dubet: I agree with you, most folks haven't begun to face the music, but I think this is an awakening moment for people. Just today I said to myself with great sincerity, "get out there and try again to educate folks." so I'm going down to my small northern california town square Occupy event to do just that, it's a start. I don't know if people are capable of re-visioning reality. I asked a couple young rather spoiled women I work with today who grew up in a beautiful back to the land community in the mountains, if they could envision life without Target and year round salmon from costco, etc, they couldn't. What will it take? no more yellow fin at the sushi joint? Drones or drought? will it be too late? I'm with you, but will probably work above ground as long as I can.
I've read all the comments I can stand.
The point of this protest is obvious: Wall Street and the financial institutions/corporations it represents are the biggest source of trouble the nation and world has right now. It is the one thing that the vast majority of americans agree on and it is time for the politicians to stand with the people and get these monsters under control. They ignore this wakeup call at their peril.
A few statesmen are starting to use this movement as a wind at their backs. If it grows others will be encouraged and more will be forced to move with a growing concensis.
Many of the solutions are obvious if complicated in detail. Implementation will not be quick or easy and make no mistake, THIS IS A POLITICAL PROBLEM THAT WILL ONLY BE SOLVED AT THE BALLOT BOX. But first the pols need to see a united, determined people stand up and say we are not going to take this any more.
Every movement needs a flag. 99% is a good one.
I wake every day with some hope now that things will change. However, with change must come a pledge to hold the politicians responsible. If people don't hold politicians, as well as Wall Street, responsible, nothing can change. Hopefully, the politicians will be confronted.
From Black Agenda Report:
"The cry for change must include a cry in opposition to the Democratic Party. When Congressman Charles Rangel visited Zuccotti park, he was shouted down by one protester, but then received words of apology from others."
http://blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-occupying-wall-street
Please don't apologize to these opportunistic sleazebag politicans. They should be hiding in shame and fear, not strutting around Zuccotti Park.
Englehardt offers a "small, hopeful cheer"?? Faint praise from someone I thought knew better.
I've visited the Boston site a number of times in the past week and I have no trouble understanding what the folks at OccupyBoston want: a just economic and social system, a government that isn't owned the the corporate elites, a democratic system that operates for the benefit of its people, an end to the US military/industrial/prison complex...: all the things I want and have been working for for fifty yrs.
Maybe each of you might explain to me what message you are missing.
Reality, our reality as a species on this tiny planet in the void, is we are tethered to economic systems based on growth to the point of unsustainable. The Powers that be, our movers and shakers, the leaders of nations, have lost touch with basic science. Instead they run about tethered to an appendage of a beast wholly shadowed in illusion. Did you think every home owner sold on a front green would know how to use those high spun "needs" for the lawn? We are based on concepts that bare heavy flaws. The walk back may already be gone, imagine what messages will be framed should that be the case.
The folks not understanding right now are learning what we have known for long histories past, the yoke of fear and terror never settles as we lay our heads down.
The teachers are walking in the crowds, along with the science community, our great spiritual leaders, our artists, grand mothers with accents.
These people would end the wars
Alone that endeavor would open doors
A chance to honor of all the innocent who have died
A chance to reduce suffering world wide
There are larger numbers of many who would serve all mankind,
better than the profiteers, who drink the blood of our future.
A new arm of the United States
Dedicated to removing the money from the system
Let’s start simple, no more cash in politics, lobbyist stand ground on merit of projected benefit to the majority not the few.
World law #1 thou shall not kill; and here on this planet killers make profit.
Our lot is to redirect this Mother ship, the task is epic, and the shift of human systems on such a scale is questionable.
Two things to do: rewrite your constitution and watch a quality film of the Earth so small in the void.
#ComeTogether to #OccupyShakedownStreet
http://tumblr.com/Z-N5nwAReWdh