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5 Reasons Progressives Should Treat Ron Paul with Extreme Caution
He's anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-senior-citizen, anti-equality and anti-education, and that's just the start.
There are few things as maddening in a maddening political season as the warm and fuzzy feelings some progressives evince for Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, the Republican presidential candidate. "The anti-war Republican," people say, as if that's good enough.
But Ron Paul is much, much more than that. He's the anti-Civil-Rights-Act Republican. He's an anti-reproductive-rights Republican. He's a gay-demonizing Republican. He's an anti-public education Republican and an anti-Social Security Republican. He's the John Birch Society's favorite congressman. And he's a booster of the Constitution Party, which has a Christian Reconstructionist platform. So, if you're a member of the anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-senior-citizen, anti-equality, anti-education, pro-communist-witch-hunt wing of the progressive movement, I can see how he'd be your guy.
Paul first drew the attention of progressives with his vocal opposition to the invasion of Iraq. Coupled with the Texan's famous call to end the Federal Reserve, that somehow rendered him, in the eyes of the single-minded, the GOP's very own Dennis Kucinich. Throw in Paul's opposition to the drug war and his belief that marriage rights should be determined by the states, and Paul seemed suitable enough to an emotionally immature segment of the progressive movement, a wing populated by people with privilege adequate enough to insulate them from the nasty bits of the Paul agenda. (Tough on you blacks! And you, women! And you, queers! And you, old people without money.)
Ron Paul's anti-war stance, you see, comes not from a cry for peace, but from the deeply held isolationism of the far right. Some may say that, when it comes to ending the slaughter of innocents, the ends justify the means. But, in the case of Ron Paul, the ends involve trading the rights and security of a great many Americans for the promise of non-intervention.
Here's a list -- by no means comprehensive -- of Ron Paul positions and associates that should explain, once and for all, why no self-respecting progressive could possibly sidle up to Paul.
1) Ron Paul on Race
Based on his religious adherence to his purportedly libertarian principles, Ron Paul opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Unlike his son, Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., Ron Paul has not even tried to walk back from this position. In fact, he wears it proudly. Here's an excerpt from Ron Paul's 2004 floor speech about the Civil Rights Act, in which he explains why he voted against a House resolution honoring the 40th anniversary of the law:
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 not only violated the Constitution and reduced individual liberty; it also failed to achieve its stated goals of promoting racial harmony and a color-blind society. Federal bureaucrats and judges cannot read minds to see if actions are motivated by racism. Therefore, the only way the federal government could ensure an employer was not violating the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was to ensure that the racial composition of a business's workforce matched the racial composition of a bureaucrat or judge's defined body of potential employees. Thus, bureaucrats began forcing employers to hire by racial quota. Racial quotas have not contributed to racial harmony or advanced the goal of a color-blind society. Instead, these quotas encouraged racial balkanization, and fostered racial strife.
He also said this: "[T]he forced integration dictated by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 increased racial tensions while diminishing individual liberty."
Ron Paul also occasionally appears at events sponsored by the John Birch Society, the segregationist right-wing organization that is closely aligned with the Christian Reconstructionist wing of the religious right.
In 2008, James Kirchick brought to light in the pages of the New Republic a number of newsletters with Paul's name in the title -- Ron Paul's Freedom Report, Ron Paul Political Report, The Ron Paul Survival Report, and The Ron Paul Investment Letter -- that contained baldly racist material, which Paul denied writing.
At NewsOne, Casey Gane-McCalla reported a number of these vitriolic diatribes, including this, on the L.A. riots after the Rodney King verdict: "Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks three days after rioting began.”
In a related piece, Jon C. Hopwood of Yahoo!'s Associated Content cites a Reuters report on Paul's response to the TNR story, which came in the form of a written statement:
The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed. I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts.... I have publicly taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name.
2) Ron Paul on Reproductive Rights
The sponsor of a bill to overturn Roe v. Wade, Ron Paul's libertarianism does not apply to women, though it does apply to zygotes. His is a no-exceptions anti-abortion position, essentially empowering a rapist to sire a child with a woman of his choosing. Although Paul attributes his stance on abortion to his background as an ob-gyn physician, it should be noted that most ob-gyns are pro-choice, and that Paul's draconian position tracks exactly with that of his Christian Reconstructionist friends.
While mainstream media, when they're not busy ignoring his presidential campaign in favor of the badly trailing former Utah Gov. John Huntsman, invariably focus on Paul's economic libertarianism, Sarah Posner, writing for the Nation, noted that during his appearances leading up to the Iowa straw poll (in which Paul finished second only to Rep. Michele Bachmann, Minn., by a 200-vote margin), "launched into gruesome descriptions of abortion, a departure from his stump speech focused on cutting taxes, shutting down the Federal Reserve, getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan and repealing the Patriot Act."
3) Ron Paul on LGBT People
While it's true that Paul advocates leaving it to the states to determine whether same-sex marriages should be legally recognized, it's not because he's a friend to LGBT people. Paul's position on same-sex marriage stems from his beliefs about the limits of the federal government's role vis-a-vis his novel interpretation of the Constitution.
In fact, a newsletter called the Ron Paul Poltiical Report, unearthed by Kirchick, shows Paul on a rant against a range of foes and conspiracies, including "the federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS," to which Paul parenthetically adds, "my training as a physician helps me see through this one." The passage, which also portends a "coming race war in our big cities," complains of the "perverted" and "pagan" annual romp for the rich and powerful known as Bohemian Grove, and takes aim at the "demonic" Skull and Bones Society at Yale, not to mention the "Israeli lobby," begins with the paranoid claim, "I've been told not to talk, but these stooges don't scare me."
While Paul denied, in 2001, writing most of the scurrilous material that ran, without attribution, in newsletters that bore his name in the title, this passage, according to Jon Hopwood, bears Paul's byline.
4) Ron Paul Calls Social Security Unconstitutional, Compares it to Slavery
Earlier this year, in an appearance on "Fox News Sunday," Paul declared both Social Security and Medicare to be unconstitutional, essentially saying they should be abolished for the great evil that they are -- just like slavery. Here's the transcript, via ThinkProgress:
["FOX NEWS SUNDAY" HOST CHRIS] WALLACE: You talk a lot about the Constitution. You say Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid are all unconstitutional.
PAUL: Technically, they are. … There’s no authority [in the Constitution]. Article I, Section 8 doesn't say I can set up an insurance program for people. What part of the Constitution are you getting it from? The liberals are the ones who use this General Welfare Clause. … That is such an extreme liberal viewpoint that has been mistaught in our schools for so long and that's what we have to reverse—that very notion that you're presenting.
WALLACE: Congressman, it's not just a liberal view. It was the decision of the Supreme Court in 1937 when they said that Social Security was constitutional under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.
PAUL: And the Constitution and the courts said slavery was legal, too, and we had to reverse that.
5) Ron Paul, Christian Reconstructionists and the John Birch Society
The year 2008 was a telling one in the annals of Ron Paul's ideology. For starters, it was the year in which he delivered the keynote address at the 50th anniversary gala of the John Birch Society, the famous anti-communist, anti-civil-rights organization hatched in the 1950s by North Carolina candy magnate Robert Welch, with the help of Fred Koch, founder of what is now Koch Industries, and a handful of well-heeled friends. The JBS is also remembered for its role in helping to launch the 1964 presidential candidacy of the late Sen. Barry Goldwater, R-Ariz., and for later backing the segregationist Alabama Gov. George Wallace in his 1968 third-party presidential bid.
The semi-secular ideology of the John Birch Society -- libertarian market and fiscal theory laced with flourishes of cultural supremacy -- finds its religious counterpart, as Fred Clarkson noted, in the theonomy of Christian Reconstructionism, the right-wing religious-political school of thought founded by Rousas John Rushdoony. The ultimate goal of Christian Reconstructionists is to reconstitute the law of the Hebrew Bible -- which calls for the execution of adulterers and men who have sex with other men -- as the law of the land. The Constitution Party constitutes the political wing of Reconstructionism, and the CP has found a good friend in Ron Paul.
When Paul launched his second presidential quest in 2008, he won the endorsement of Rev. Chuck Baldwin, a Baptist pastor who travels in Christian Reconstructionist circles, though he is not precisely a Reconstructionist himself (for reasons having to do with his interpretation of how the end times will go down). When Paul dropped out of the race, instead of endorsing Republican nominee John McCain, or even Libertarian Party nominee Bob Barr, Paul endorsed Constitution Party nominee Chuck Baldwin (who promised, in his acceptance speech, to uphold the Constitution Party platform, which looks curiously similar to the Ron Paul agenda, right down to the no-exceptions abortion proscription and ending the Fed).
At his shadow rally that year in Minneapolis, held on the eve of the Republican National Convention, Paul invited Constitution Party founder Howard Phillips, a Christian Reconstructionist, to address the crowd of end-the-Fed-cheering post-pubescents. (In his early congressional career, Julie Ingersoll writes in Religion Dispatches, Paul hired as a staffer Gary North, a Christian Reconstructionist leader and Rushdoony's son-in-law.)
At a "Pastor's Forum" at Baldwin's Baptist church in Pensacola, Florida, Paul was asked by a congregant about his lack of support for Israel, which many right-wing Christians support because of the role Israel plays in what is known as premillennialist end-times theology. "Premillennialist" refers to the belief that after Jesus returns, according to conditions on the ground in Israel, the righteous will rule. But Christian Reconstructionists have a different view, believing the righteous must first rule for 1,000 years before Jesus will return.
They also believe, according to Clarkson, "that 'the Christians' are the 'new chosen people of God,' commanded to do what 'Adam in Eden and Israel in Canaan failed to do...create the society that God requires.' Further, Jews, once the 'chosen people,' failed to live up to God's covenant and therefore are no longer God's chosen. Christians, of the correct sort, now are."
Responding to Baldwin's congregant, Paul explained, "I may see it slightly differently than others because I think of the Israeli government as different than what I read about in the Bible. I mean, the Israeli government doesn't happen to be reflecting God's views. Some of them are atheist, and their form of government is not what I would support... And there are some people who interpret the chosen people as not being so narrowly defined as only the Jews -- that maybe there's a broader definition of that."
At the John Birch Society 50th anniversary gala, Ron Paul spoke to another favorite theme of the Reconstructionists and others in the religious right: that of the "remnant" left behind after evil has swept the land. (Gary North's publication is called The Remnant Review.) In a dispatch on Paul's keynote address, The New American, the publication of the John Birch Society, explained, "He claimed that the important role the JBS has played was to nurture that remnant and added, 'The remnant holds the truth together, both the religious truth and the political truth.'"
Is there a progressive willing to join that fold?
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365 Comments so far
Show AllYes, both Obama and Paul support that, Paul to an even greater degree than Obama. So, why are people here supporting Paul? Especially since Paul is even further to the right than Obama or Bush 2?
No, Paul is NOT to the left of Obama. The problem is that people who say that Paul looks like a leftist compare to Obama, struggled to define "left". Hint, "left" and "right" comes down to how one views capital / property rights vs labour rights.
Paul is to the right of Obama / Bush 2, Paul's view of government is essentially that it should only exist to protect capital / property rights, above all else.
Look closer at the issues and you'll see where Paul is surprisingly to the left on quite a few. I don't see the point of us picking between a silent killer and a known devil. As for why too many here are picking Paul, I can't say but I think that they're responding to the article's flaws and fallacious nature of implicitly telling us to be too paranoid and overprotective about Ron Paul while saying nothing about Obama and the DLC wing of the Democratic Party doing the same thing. Such articles will only rub our anger off in the wrong direction. Ask these same posters here who they would support if they had to pick between Paul and Nader and I'd bet that most would choose Nader without a doubt.
Nope.
Define "left". Go ahead define it.
It is not possible to be "left", and support capital / property rights above all else. That is core right wing philosophy.
"Define "left". Go ahead define it."
You're making too much of a mountain out of an anthill. I already made it clear that Paul is to the left of Obama on some issues and to the right on others and now that you're unable to handle the truth, you now want me to define the "left" ?
"It is not possible to be "left", and support capital / property rights above all else. That is core right wing philosophy."
That's where you're getting it wrong. It's possible to be "left" on some issues and still support unregulated capitalism and owning property which means also supporting the "right". Paul is basically an all round libertarian although most of his legislative record has been more right-leaning Libertarian than left. You're making the same mistake of getting too selective on the issues.
Nope. It is not a mountain out of molehill or anthill.
You do not even know what left is. Yet you claim Paul is to the "left". He isn't. Paul is one of the most right wing politicians in the US. His basic position is the textbook definition of right wing.
No, it is not possible to be "left" and support capital rights above all else. That is (neo)liberal. It is not "left. If Paul is "left" than the word "left" has become meaningless.
And Paul does not support owning property. He supports property rights ABOVE ALL ELSE. That is a key difference, hence his positions on slavery, on civil rights. He considers gov ending slavery, an infringement of the property of the slave owners. Property rights above all else.
I'm not being selective on issues. It comes down to what words, and ideas mean. If you support capitalism above all else, you cannot be left. (neo)Liberal, yes, since but not left. Paul is more neoliberal than he his "left".
You can knock off your personal attacks since I know plenty enough about the left that I and others can prove that Paul is to the left of Obama on certain issues if not all. Gotta problem with that? Tell it to your boss Obama and his minions. By the way, I also know the left damn well enough to put my focus on helping Nader or whoever the Green Party nominee is knowing damn well that neither Paul nor Obama are worth settling for. Thanks but no thanks again for proving to us that you're getting selective on the issues. It's ok but just admit it and then let's go over all the issues one at a time. Fair enough?
For all those who would like an alternate and truly progressive view of Ron Paul, do check the CounterPunch web site. That site takes all this into account. Then make up your minds. How about that?
I haven't seen it in quite a while but I have seen unbiased articles, for and against Paul. I'll check it back out to see more on the issues. Thanks for mentioning it.
Pointing out that you cannot define "left" is a personal attack?
Can you define what a personal attack is? Nope, just as you cannot define "left".
Why don't you define left, since you know plenty about it. Define it. Go ahead. Why are you so afraid to do so?
As for Obama being my boss, nope.
I don't define what's left or right but go by the generally agreed given definitions. I only compare relative to that. Too many individual definitions and we're getting nowhere.
The generally agreed definition, the basic one is labour rights (left) vs capital rights (right).
So, if you go by the general one, then, Ron Paul is an extreme right winger, to the right even of Obama and Bush 2.
I think that we need a separate discussion to fully compare the both of them on the issues before we can be sure of that. All I can say is that some issues are sticking out more than others for each of us.
Rfloh, My reply comes a little late in the game, but I define "left" as those opposed to war, and I define "right wing" as those who support war or war mongerers. Ron Paul opposes war, so he is left wing. Obama supports and escalates old wars and starts new ones, so he is right wing.
Little arguments about economic details don't matter when the result is that your "left wing" people are mass murderers of Muslim children and your right wingers like Paul oppose killing Muslim children for sport or religion. (I think that accurately divides the prevailing American justifications for killing Muslims).
I will say this again. Obama is a war criminal. Democrats who support Obama are war criminals. People who support war are baby killers. People who support Obama are baby killers. That is my bottom line.
Do I support traditional socialist values like social security and medicare? Yes. But war is more important, or more accurately, peace is more important and standing against war is more important. We can't finance our schools and medical care for our children because we spend all of our money killing young children in Muslim countries, so that rich young American children like Sasha and Malia Obama can go to the best schools so they can learn how to oppress poor people around the world and kill them with their military might.
This is precisely the problem.
Those "leftists" who support Paul, cannot even define "left" and "right".
"Little arguments about economic details don't matter when the result is that your "left wing" people are mass murderers of Muslim children and your right wingers like Paul oppose killing Muslim children for sport or religion. (I think that accurately divides the prevailing American justifications for killing Muslims)."
Err no. They aren't little arguments. Those arguments affect everything. Most things in the world happen for economic reasons.
"I will say this again. Obama is a war criminal. Democrats who support Obama are war criminals. People who support war are baby killers. People who support Obama are baby killers. That is my bottom line."
So?
"Do I support traditional socialist values like social security and medicare? Yes. But war is more important, or more accurately, peace is more important and standing against war is more important. "
Fine. Then say that you are a single issue anti-war person.
"We can't finance our schools and medical care for our children because we spend all of our money killing young children in Muslim countries, so that rich young American children like Sasha and Malia Obama can go to the best schools so they can learn how to oppress poor people around the world and kill them with their military might."
Nope, it isn't as simple as that. Under a hardcore pro capitalist like Paul, you would still not be able to finance anything. Since taxes will be cut to the bone, and they would all be used to enact a police state to protect capital and property rights.
not just property but personal liberty. Just look at his stance on the war on drugs. Even gay marriage, he just says that is a state issue, the fed gov has no business getting involved with it.
Spare me. Paul's philosophy is capital / property (and that includes slavery) above all else.
what a pity he is the only anti-war candidate of 2012 - the rest are war-criminals
I'd love to see what would happen if all the military troops were withdrawn from foreign lands, disbanded, and no standing army. I'd love to see what would happen if corporations were no longer funneled billions of dollars of our tax money and then bailed out every time they screwed up. I'd love to see justice for billionaire criminals. I'd love to see what would happen if a President stood up to Israel and said "back off".
And as for gay rights, civil rights, abortion rights, etc., I can see the issues raised but I think it comes from a misunderstanding of Paul's libertarianism, it's not of the hijacked Glenn Beck style, it's older and more Jeffersonian. Paul has an abiding belief that government with it's bloated imperialism and dangerous need to control civil society is the problem. He's not anti-gay, or anti-civil rights, or anti-women, he's anti-government. I know that seems contradictory but it's not. It's from an old school libertarian perspective.
And as far as those who seem to think he has some Christianizing agenda, he doesn't. I've heard him say repeatedly that his religion is of no concern to anyone, and is irrelevant. Again he comes from an older tradition of mind your own business. He is not into proselytizing his religious beliefs.
Ok, so maybe you made the case that Paul isn't as extreme to the right as some may have framed it to be. Still, the problem is that on certain issues that are very sensitive and that his positions go partly or fully against the Libertarian platform. He may not be one of those who are for Christianizing the US but his take on abortion and affirmative action might be offensive enough to push people into mentally tying him to the evangelical Christian right. If Paul were like Thomas Jefferson or better, he might not be as controversial a figure that he is today. I agree that he's not the Glenn Beck type but hasn't shown us what he'll do to put the Glenn Becks out of business if elected.
Paul appears to be a strict constitutionalist, especially regarding The Bill of Rights. I think that he is seriously committed to reversing the dangerous trend of consolidated power in the executive branch. The imperial wars promoted and sponsored by the corporate/state is out of control and he knows it, says so, and wants to do something about it. Consequently he is shunned by the corporate ruled media and made to look like a kook. He's dangerous to the power elites, not to the average you and me. He's also keenly aware of the infringement of individual rights on citizens, i.e. unwarranted wiretaps and monitoring of emails, phone conversations, internet activity, as well as illegal arrests and imprisonment. In my mind these issues are a priority. If nothing is done about it then we can kiss all our civil liberties goodbye. It won't be because of Paul that we end up with a corporate police state, it will be because of good intentioned, but ill informed citizens duped by the rhetoric of the fascist state, of whom Obama is a godsend. I know of no one out there that has any hope of reversing the madness currently going on. I've supported Nader and would do so again. For now Paul is all there is, as pathetic as that seems.
"For now Paul is all there is, as pathetic as that seems."
I wouldn't be so sure. Look up the Green Party and look up Stewart Alexander.
"It's time for the two-party monopoly, like a structure whose infrastructure has begun to ostensibly rot from within, to come apart so that there is ROOM made for OTHER to replace the current illusory players." -- Siouxrose
It's time for libruls to protect the environment by reducing all the the hot air.
Democrats, liberals, progressives, etc., etc., are such hypocrites. They whine and complain about Democratic misconduct, and then they always vote for the Democrat, even if he's worse than the Republican. And of course, they viciously vilify any ethical third party candidates (Nader comes to mind) who actually try the third party route.
OK. Then give me a real choice. Just who do you suggest we vote for? I'll vote for Nader. Get him on the ballot. Or Cynthia McKinny. Or Kucinich. Or Barbara Lee. Or any of a number of other ethical, honest people who refuse to support war and mayhem, lies, America's descent into a police state, corporate melding with the state (fascism), the persecution of whistle-blowers, etc., etc. These are all terrible, terrible events/policies which Bush Jr. began, and Obama has not only continued, but expanded. Ron Paul clearly and strong opposes them all. I'd love to vote for Nader or some other leftist. BUT THEY ARE NOT ON THE BALLOT. So how do I vote for them? If my only choices are Obama and Paul, then I'm going with the lesser evil: Ron Paul.
Ethical, honest people rarely, if ever, get nominated by either the Dems or the Repubs. At least Ron Paul has a track record of saying what he really believes, and acting in accordance with what he says. Compare what Obama said during the campaign to what he actually has done in office). The Democrats are a corrupt machine, bankrolled by the same people who bankroll the Republicans. The Dems are so enthusiastic about democracy they even managed to keep Nader off the ballot in several states with dirty tricks, and Democratic apparatchiks such as Stan Alter of Alternet savaged the man, distortion his positions and records: all for the Democratic Machine. Obama = Democratic machine. Obama = war, assassination, conquest, regime-change, Wall Street bailout, lies, a corporate pork health care bill with no public option, cutting social security and medicaid, etc., etc.
Adele Stan criticizes Ron Paul for saying social security and Medicare are unconstitutional, but she didn't say anything about Obama, who during the campaign professed to champion the poor and needy, but as president became the tool of corporations and lobbies.
Adele Stan implies Ron Paul is an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel (compare Obama); doesn't mention his strong and outspoken opposition to Patriot Acts I & II and the loss of our civil liberties (compare Obama); doesn't mention Paul's opposition to the wars Obama started in Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia plus the Bush war in Afghanistan that Obama escalated, and the war in Iraq where Obama has refused to withdraw as he promised in the campaign.
After weighing pros and cons, it isn't even close: Ron Paul is far, far better than Obama across the board. After Ron Paul cleans house, ends the wars, puts corporate crooks in jail, pardons whistle-blowers, repeals the Patriot Act, then we can worry about rebuilding the welfare society. Obama really isn't any better than Paul on that issue, either. It's just that Paul is more honest about his views.
Well said!
Amen bro.
And don't forget that democrats NEVER talk about the monetary system and the SYSTEMIC problems with the current debt-based scheme. They wax poetic about the poor, but they never address why it exists.
Ending the wars and ending the federal reserve monetary system is the only way to stop a horrible collapse.
Yes, because the gold system makes sooo much sense.
If you are rich that is.
Exactly right. Paul stands for values he believes in. Obama believes in nothing but power.
The cure for those who think Ron Paul offers a viable choice cannot be found by documenting facts about his views, unfortunately. Some people have empathetic problems. They are attracted by a libertarianism that would allow harm to others as long as they are free to act. They're not too far from the moral depravity of Randianism, quite frankly. They have ideological blinders on, thinking that all will be well if selfishness is allowed free reign, when history has proved the exact opposite time and again.
Next add capitalism, the most destructive ideology that's arisen on the planet. How anyone is defending capitalism at this point is beyond belief. You don't have to read Marx to figure this out. Start with land ownership. It causes most babies to be in hock to someone else when they take their first breath. That's not freedom. It's the definition of bondage or slavery. But we find no critique by those following the American Libertarian Party view or Ron Paul view. They just don't get things at the macro level.
Given this state of thinking, it's not surprising that those who are warm and fuzzy about Ron Paul won't be dissuaded by facts or critiques. They simply can't get past their love of laissez faire capitalism, which, by the way, is the source of our perpetual wars. It really doesn't matter if Ron Paul opposes U.S. wars abroad if he will not check the system that perpetuates those wars for profit.
It is very sad to read to read the pro Ron Paul writings at Common Dreams in these threads. The simple message I want to convey is that such folks need to wrap their heads around the dark side of capitalism. Personally, I think there is no common ground between American political libertarianism and progressive views. Actually, most progressives see that a government responsive to the people can accomplish things for the greater good that individuals cannot do themselves. A functioning government would prioritize the public good over private greed. That's not the government we have now, but libertarians don't see any need for government restraint of private capital interests, and that's an enormous and irreconcilable shortcoming. There is no common ground here.
You make many good points here, but if you think this election, or any election in the foreseeable future, is going to be about abolishing capitalism, you're wrong. The question only what kind of capitalism, and Paul makes many points on the corruption of capitalism that many progressives listen to: end the subsidies to the large corporations and end the Fed (a private bank that has declared that it need not be audited, and won that battle against Paul). End imperialism (I find it odd that on a site such as this, which usually cries out against imperialism, Paul is criticized as being an isolationist).
I agree, EH, that there will be no referendum on capitalism in the upcoming election, even with the criminal actions we have seen in recent years with the collapse of the housing bubble and the fraudulent packaging of bad loans as AAA securities that have shown capitalism to be such a scam, except for the elite few running the game. So, maybe Ron Paul has something to say there, but would you really expect him to call for government regulation? There isn't any corruption of capitalism happening. This fraud, crisis and fleecing is what capitalism does by its very nature.
I just think such efforts to back Paul are a waste of time. Why strive for half measures or taking a lot of the bad (as described in this article) with maybe some Ron Paul good (but quite frankly, Ron Paul's ideas are contradictory since laissez faire just leads to exploitation and corruption, and war). Why not put your efforts into supporting a party that supports broader social concerns, rather than just the concerns of a few salesman making a buck. If making money off others is the pinnacle of freedom, that seems awfully narrow as political principle and not much different than what we have right now. I just don't think that view should have any place in a government designed for the common wealth and the people - all people.
Its not laissez faire capitalism that starts the wars, its the state! And the war profiteers are all former state employees! how is it that a small business guy like me is guilty of starting the wars? It's not the entrepreneurs, its the fucking state's minions who start wars. I really don't know how you can pin the wars on capitalism. Is it because it was for the oil companies? You mean the most subsidized industry there is?
Wake up, we don't live in a capitalist system. At least not anymore. Its fascism. The only companies that strive are the ones who work hand in hand with the state.
And don't say I have an empathy problem because I tend to lean libertarian. Handing out extra cheese and SHITTY MEDICAL CARE is not a solution to a larger problem. But you guys don't want that. You want more cheese and then you want to that's caring about the poor.
The state starts wars, protects polluters, and subsidizes their prefered corporations but you want to give more power over the economy to the government. Brilliant.
Well, let's start with a definition of fascism. Mussolini described it as nationalism plus corporatism. The state acts on behalf of corporations. And corporations have always been chartered by the state. It's true as you say that taxpayer dollars are handed over to companies like the oil industries, but that happens either because the state wants to foster that industry or the corporations have written the laws. We get a little of both approaches here in the states. But none of that is socialism. Socialism is where the state acts for the general welfare of the people. There's a big difference between government support of private interests and government support of the public interest.
Your contention that capitalism isn't the root of a perpetual war system overlooks U.S. history post-World War II. I'd say that all of current four wars are related to access to oil production.
You have a legitimate complaint about the defunding of our successful social welfare programs, like Medicare. But you have no example where private industry has done a better job. In fact, the insurance companies extract about a third of every healthcare dollar in the United States, and they add nothing to the process, except to profit by limiting care. Healthcare is a classic example where government is far more efficient than private industry.
And look, if your government isn't going to help feed people who are starving, then let's not have it. Let's then have a Hobbesian world where people settle differences with guns and it's survival of the fittest. That's your ultimate libertarian world. And yes, this is a result of deficient empathy, sad to say. The way toward violence is to start with a bad idea. Capitalism, which profits the few over the many, is one of the worst.
Utter bollocks.
Capitalism NEEDS the state. Capitalism LOVES the state. Without the state, capitalism cannot function. Capitalism REQUIRES the state to protect capital and property rights.
Capitalism is NOT free market. In an actual free market, their would be no state protecting capital rights.
You hate the state? Fine. End it. All of it. No regulation, no social programs, no law, no police, no protection of capital and property rights. An actual true free market, which capitalism is not.
Like many other posters, you are setting up straw men--no one here is "warm and fuzzy" about Ron Paul, and it's not about whether or not we like capitalism. It's about strategic voting, a way of trying to change a game that we all know is rigged, using the tools that we actually have.
The strategy that is being suggested is this: voting in the Republican PRIMARY for Ron Paul, so that the corporate media will be forced to allow discussion about the wars, war on the poor and dark (also known as the War on Drugs), loss of the Bill of Rights, habeas corpus and Constitution, two-tier legal system, NAFTA-style treaties, etc. Because Ron Paul is the ONLY Republican or Democratic candidate who doesn't agree with Obama on these issues.
Remember, we are talking about the PRIMARY elections (where each party chooses its candidates) , not the GENERAL election (which is the big one in November where one person is (supposedly) elected as President).
If one of the other Republicans is nominated, there will be no national discussion of the wars, etc., because the nominee will agree with Obama on every one of those important issues.
The choice is between voting strategically in the PRIMARIES, to get the discussion out on the nation's TV screens, or just accepting our role as "f--king r-t-rds" (as Rahm Emmanuel put it) who will, as usual, gracefully accept our role as powerless Cassandras.
Voting for Ron Paul in the Republican PRIMARY does not commit anyone to anything In the GENERAL election, of course, we could all vote third party, and maybe, after this national discussion provoked by a Ron Paul candidacy, we'd be joined by many more people.
Lots of posters have described their fears about a Paul presidency, though they have not contrasted their speculations about the horrors he'd commit with the actual horrors Obama has brought upon us or the horrors that we can expect from any of the other Republican candidates.
Would Paul be worse than the other Republicans if elected in the GENERAL election? Or is the problem really that Paul might defeat Obama if nominated? Or is it that Paul is against our "special relationship" with Israel? No one has been willing to discuss why voting for Paul in the Republican PRIMARY is not a good idea.
I didn't think any Republicans read Common Dreams. But if they do and want to push Ron Paul in the primaries, more power to them, I say. Go Paul!
Strategic voting may be what remains in a heavily two-party gamed system. I just think we should keep it simple. If people just voted for a third party that represents their interests, there'd be no need for strategic voting, and there'd be a possibility of winning in the long term as numbers of voters build up. However, most people think they can avoid short-term pain by voting Democratic. This has been an incorrect assumption, as the Obama administration has made so clear.
Nicely done. Thanks.
"....to directly oppose or support Barack Obama, Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry, Ron Paul, or any other candidate on the ballot."
UGH. How totally sickening. A non-list for an upcoming non-(s)election in a non-democracy as we roll full steam ahead into a non-future.
sLiMsHaDy wrote:
"....to directly oppose or support Barack Obama, Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry, Ron Paul, or any other candidate on the ballot."
UGH. How totally sickening. A non-list for an upcoming non-(s)election in a non-democracy as we roll full steam ahead into a non-future.
* * * * *
My Reply:
sLiMsHaDy,
Yes, it is sickening. A nightmare ballot.
Anyone, who gives a shit and who had the power to do so would in a genuinely democratic election vote against each and every one of the people on this list, while supporting others if any who they believe are qualified to do the job that we are supposedly according to democratic civic myth hiring someone to do.
In a genuine democracy the people are the boss. A boss has the power to say no.
Voting "Most Oppose" in a Category Scale Power Voting election is like dropping the candidate's resumé in the circular file, then giving the candidate the finger and a kick in the ass.
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After almost 200 comments let's all face the bottom line:
It really doesn't matter which one of the known candidates gets elected to the Presidency because we're all fucked regardless. The only thing Paul might have some decent influence on is war policy (not without a big a fight, and a BIG set of balls). The rest is much more in the hands of a thoroughly corrupt duopoly.
We need to focus on what we can do over the long term getting out from behind our computers and organizing in our own communities, and begin to build a national network worthy of true "people power". That's the only way we could someday see fundamental change. We will be increasingly in trouble without it.
Good point, cdresearch.
Bloomberg for President!
Ultimate default position.
Only serious alternative to current disaster.
Funnier: Steve Jobs for VP!
What a ticket. I'm dying here! We all are...
-30-
That would be one hell of a socially liberal but solid corporatist ticket.
Rather than everybody coming up with names for the "ticket", wouldn't it be better if everybody came together to organize a movment for change that wouldn't be dependent on any "ticket"s?
This website seems to draw mainly people who want to discuss presidential politics as a kind of spectator sport, rather than roll up their sleeves and begin building a better country.They treat politics as a focus for their desire to whine, complain, bitch, bellyache, and hurl verbal garbage in various directions.
How come no one posts here about what they are DOING, what is working in their communities, what they have learned by taking part in organizing efforts?
If this is the American Left, no wonder the country is in such a dire mess. Are Americans really just a nation of essentially satisfied complainers? Are they really just a bunch of fat suburbanites, driving around from junk food restaurant to junk food restaurant, using food to "comfort" themselves, and farting out their sense of emptiness on websites like this?
Enjoy your griping, have fun conjuring up ever more ingenious "tickets", and I wish all of you Many Happy Masturbations. As for me, I'll skip this website in future.
withdrawn.
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That's a valid critique.
Adele, thanks
we need to EVOLVE.
You cannot be against WAR & have WARS against every single community, gender, political group, & spiritual tendency, race & religion, except one particular religion, . That simply means there are MULTIPLE WARS INSIDE YOU By far there is no balance, inclusion, consensus,VISION & HUMANITY for the other.
As someone commented, it was Nader who suggested a Paul/Sanders ticket. Interesting indeed.
Progressives should jump on the Ron Paul band wagon. It is funny that someone mentions that why be a one issue voter and support Ron Paul on ending wars. LMAO. He is the top antiwar candidate period. No other issue should matter. Dropping bombs on brown skinned people's heads in the middle east to dominate them and their societies needs to stop. We are an evil country. Until we stop killing ten of thousands of brown skinned people in order to dominate them we should be one issue candidates. Progressives who can't get on that "bandwagon" show their true colors. They accuse Ron Paul of being racist while putting the death and the destruction we cause in the middle east on the same level of Paul saying some things don't like...so they can't support him. Hey. Let's support whoever wants to stop dropping bombs on and killing people. Does the CIA have writers on commondreams? The civil rights act isn't about to be repealed. Abortion isn't about to be outlawed. All of this would have to go through congress and the senate and the courts. We are dropping bombs and killing brown skinned people in the middle east and other countries for decades now. This is happening. This is a fact not some future possibility. Why write this article? So people who oppose war can be divided and not come together and the Banks and MIC can keep their stranglehold on the American people. This article is pure garbage and must have been thought up in the pentagon.
I agree. But as I see it, the civil rights act will be repealed and abortion will be outlawed before the banks and the MIC loosen their stranglehold on the American people.
Ron Paul is not opposed to "banks". He is opposed to a central bank -- such as every modern country has -- because it debases the currency by "printing money"
In the old days, when everything was constitutional, private banks issued the money. The result of this "system" was wildly unsound currency, rendered worthless when a bank failed, meaning that people who held its currency simply lost that value. Bank failure was common, the multiplicity of currencies created the dread "uncertainty" that prevents capitalists from investing, and led to constant bubbles and busts, not to mention scams and widespread suffering.
The Federal Reserve was established, not as some kind of Illuminati plot, but as a measure to bring some order and security to the currency and the banking system. It was considered a necessary and progressive measure at the time, and it in fact succeeded in reducing the chaos that brought depressions in the 1870's, the 1890's, and in 1907.
This is not to say that the Fed has always done the right thing. Rather, it has acted as a utility for the banks, propping them up when they screw up, and serving the rich by concentrating on inflation avoidance rather than stimulus (see the '30s). But this goes to the question of how best to design a financial system that works for the people, rather than one that works for their bosses. "Libertarianism" has zero to say about that.
In the perpetual contest between the minority of creditors who fix the chains of debt slavery on the majority, and the majority of debtors who long for freedom, Paul stands wholeheartedly with the creditors, and rails, in his polite way, against any mechanism, whether government programs or trade unions, that might possibly offer some relief to the majority.
This is not "Libertarianism", but a charter for the rich to plunder the rest of us and keep us in debt slavery forever. Why are there violent revolutions? Why do the people rise up and destroy the property of the rich? Why do poor Russians, Chinese, and many others let themselves go in orgies of killing, burning, and chaos? Because they are tired of being slaves, tired of being taunted and humiliated by those who enslave them, tired of looking at the palaces built with their money, sucked up and wasted by the rich while their own children starve.
What is Paul's response to this perennial problem of the greed and cruelty of the rich, and the suffering of the poor? To tell the poor that they are "unconsitutional", and to call on them to listen to the 18th century prose of the rich slaveowners who devised their Sacred Constitution (which has never been submitted to a democratic vote, and which enshrined slavery as an inherent feature of the new republic).
Nice comeback!