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The Libya War Argument
In April, 2003, American troops entered Baghdad and Saddam Hussein was forced to flee; six months later, the dictator was captured ("caught like a rat in a hole," giddy American media outlets celebrated) and eventually hanged. Each of those incidents caused massive numbers of Iraqis who had suffered under his decades-long rule to celebrate, and justifiably so: Saddam really was a monster who had brutally oppressed millions. But what was not justifiable was how those emotions were exploited by American war advocates to delegitimize domestic objections to the war. Even though opposition to the war had absolutely nothing to do with doubt about whether Saddam could be vanquished by the U.S. military -- of course he could and would be -- the emotions surrounding his defeat were seized upon by Iraq War supporters to boastfully claim full-scale vindication (here's one of my all-time favorites from that intellectually corrupt genre).
So extreme was this manipulative way of arguing that then-presidential-candidate Howard Dean was mauled by people in both parties when he dared to raise questions about whether Saddam's capture -- being hailed in bipartisan political and media circles as a Great American Achievement -- would actually make things better. Dean's obvious point was that Saddam's demise told us very little about the key questions surrounding the war: how many civilians had died and would die in the future? What would be required to stabilize Iraq? How much more fighting would be unleashed? What precedents did the attack set? What regime would replace Saddam and what type of rule would it impose, and to whom would its leaders be loyal? That a dictatorial monster had been vanquished told us nothing about any of those key questions -- the ones in which war opposition had been grounded -- yet war proponents, given pervasive hatred of Saddam, dared anyone to question the war in the wake of those emotional events and risk appearing to oppose Saddam's defeat. That tactic succeeded in turning war criticism in the immediate aftermath of those events into a taboo (the same thing was done in the wake of Mullah Omar's expulsion from Afghanistan to those arguing that the war would result in a "quagmire").
As I've emphasized from the very first time I wrote about a possible war in Libya, there are real and important differences between the attack on Iraq and NATO's war in Libya, ones that make the former unjustifiable in ways the latter is not (beginning with at least some form of U.N. approval). But what they do have in common -- what virtually all wars have in common -- is the rhetorical manipulation used to justify them and demonize critics. Just as Iraq War opponents were accused of being "objectively pro-Saddam" and harboring indifference to The Iraqi People, so, too, were opponents of the Libya War repeatedly accused of being on Gadaffi's side (courtesy of Hillary Clinton, an advocate of both wars) and/or exuding indifference to the plight of Libyans. And now, in the wake of the apparent demise of the Gadaffi regime, we see all sorts of efforts, mostly from Democratic partisans, to exploit the emotions from Gadaffi's fall to shame those who questioned the war, illustrated by this question last night from ThinkProgress, an organization whose work I generally respect: ...
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31 Comments so far
Show AllDear Iran,
We've run out of evil governments to overthrow.
Just saying. Ya might wanna prepare or something.
Your frenemy,
God blessed America, the greatest nation in the universe.
yes glen dr goebels would be proud of his children in the government and the corporate media
nazi propaganda was inspired by the british mobilization of the us in ww1 mainly through radio
the tales of the "hun" atrocities were repeated far and wide - over and over until isolationist america got sucked into the swirling vortex of what was described stateside as a "european conflict"
the war profiteers however were not about to let a good crisis go to waste - to say nothing of a good opportunity to sack the american public with overpriced goods and make a few bucks to boot
one of the profiteers was samuel bush - baby bush's great grandaddy
"The nightmare for the world began in 1915, with the establishment of an unholy partnership between the U.S. Government and the ‘War Industries Board', for-runner of America's present day 'military-industrial complex'. Some of those seated on the board of directors were Samuel P. Bush, great grandfather of George W. bush, and so-called chief of Ordnance for the Small Arms and Ammunition Section, Wall Street banker Clarence Dillon, Samuel Pryor, executive committee chairman of Remington Arms, and Bernard Baruch, who, as head of the War Industries Board profited in excess of $200,000,000.
The members of the Board aptly came to be known as the "Merchants of Death."
then there was grandaddy prescott bush affectionatley known as "banker to the nazis"
"On May 1st 1926 Prescott Bush, grandfather of George W. Bush, close friend of Bunny Harriman and fellow Bonesmen from their Yale class of 1917 joined W. A. Harriman & Co. as its vice president under the bank's president and his father-in-law George Walker. In that same year an associate of Prescott Bush's father, Samuel P. Bush, and “Merchants of Death” board member Clarence Dillon, acquired $70 million dollars from Fritz Thyssen to set up a massive organization named the Vereinigte Stahlwerke (United Steel Works Corporation, or the German Steel Trust). This would become Germany's largest industrial corporation."
"On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of all banking operations being carried out by Prescott Bush for the Nazis, Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, however by that time he and the other associates at W.A. Harriman & Co. had already made their fortunes financing and arming Adolph Hitler."
even ike was worried about these psychopaths
"President Dwight D. Eisenhower was under no allusion about the ominous changes being brought about by men like Prescott Bush, Averell Harriman, the Dulles brothers and many others. During his Farewell Address to the Nation January 17, 1961, Eisenhower tried to warn the American people saying: "We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions?we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3558
the bush's are warmongers and chickenhawks - they send other boys to fight but they never do themselves
bush daddy bailed on his crew while under attack during ww 2 - killing them all
"Former President George Bush, who bailed out of a crippled Navy Avenger bomber 53 years ago, jumped again in March of this year. His World War II jump is historic. It made Bush the only president to ever bail out of an airplane and the only president whose crew mates were sent careening into the ocean because their pilot had abandoned the aircraft."
http://www.usvetdsp.com/story46.htm
great post, thanks.
We do so many silent military coups all over the world, I keep wondering why it took the whole damn army and then some to get Saddam.
Not mentioned, is that we were the ones that put him in power in the first place and watched him brutalize his people as long as he was friendly to US interests.
How many times have we done this?
The US is the biggest terrorist organization since it's inception. From the moment it stepped on to the shores, to the present.
Disgusting. ANd we have to pay for it.
I normally don't find much to disagree with in Glenn's articles, but here he goes badly astray.
"No decent human being would possibly harbor any sympathy for Gadaffi"
I guess that puts Cynthia Mckinney, Hugo Chavez and Glen ford outside the realm of "decent human beings". I wonder -- would Glenn dare say the same of President Obama, who has about ten thousand x as much blood on his hands as Gadaffi? Of course he wouldn't. Because Obama is American. This is Orientialism at its worst.
A poster on the Salon blog rightly calls out Greenwald for his appalling comment --
"So, Glenn, now you're the one setting the parameters of acceptable discourse regarding NATO's Lybian aggression. Why would you use the phrase "no decent human being" to describe anyone expressing sympathy for Gadaffi? Personal sympathy for Gadaffi, Marcos, Mubarak, Noreiga, and a long list of others who have found themselves discarded and debased by our government when they have outlived their usefulness to the U.S., places one outside the family of decent human beings? Weirdly, you do in your post exactly what you decry others for doing in that same post. Think about it."
—htobman
You said it for me. Libya has the highest standard of living, the longest lifespan of any Arab country. Schooling is free, so is medical care. The country has to import impoverished Tunisians and those from other countries to do menial labor because the average Libyan's standard of living is so high they refuse grunt-work jobs. He is the latest case of resisting the Anglo-American banking cartel (with his plan to make the Libyan Dinar the reserve currency for Africa, hence end the aforementioned cartel's ability to suck the money out of Africa). So he joins other currency rebels, Milosavic, Saddam Hussein, and, next, Iran. Get ready for the war of "liberation" against Iran! PS: note. over the next couple of years, the standard of living for the average Libyan.
Thanks, Durrutix. While reading the article I copied that same sentence with the intention commenting on it here. You left out Nelson Mandela who has stood by Gaddafi for years because of Gaddafi's strong support for Mandela and other blacks during apartheid and his financial support for African countries in general.
Thanks, Durrutix. Note, too, that Glenn neglects to mention that Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, as well as a host of independent journalists on the ground, have found no evidence whatsoever of the "atrocities" Gaddafi was alleged by a hysterical MSM to be committing against "civilians." These were the initial grounds for the invervention, and they are every bit as bogus as any of the grounds for intervention against Iraq. In this respect the Libya war may well be a bigger crime than Iraq, because you really can't say we haven't all been through this before.
Alas, I fear that Glenn may be losing his edge. This is what happens when you neglect, as Greenwald does, the root cause of all this murderous "remaking" of the Muslim world: the false-flag 9/11 attacks. Libya is just another piece in the grand chessboard. If we don't address the evil afoot for the last 10 years and more, debunk it at every turn, and try to reverse it through education, analysis, and activism, it will swallow up every last one of us.
Comment from the same blog --
Here's who NATO has recognized as the "government" of Libya:
----------------------------
...The regime with which NATO intends to replace Gaddafi has the most right-wing, reactionary character. The TNC [my note: the rebel force] has drawn up a 14-page “constitutional declaration” in Benghazi, which was shown to AFP. It lays out the foundation for a right-wing Islamist government in Libya. It states, “Libya is a democratic and independent state. The people are the source of authority, Tripoli is the capital, Islam is the religion, and Islamic sharia [traditional law] is the principal source of legislation.”
[My note: This document also gives partial control over Libya to the UAE; we are watching the colonization of a country.]
The document was reportedly written by Islamic activist Mohammed Busidra, who granted an interview to Canada’s Globe and Mail daily on August 5. The paper reported that Busidra is “organizing Libya’s mosques into a political machine. This has made him, in the view of many people here, the figure who will wield the most political power, and likely control the country’s leadership, in the event of the dictator’s demise.”
Busidra presented his vision for an Islamic fundamentalist and pro-imperialist puppet state in Libya. He assured the Globe and Mail that he would “remain favorable toward the West and its governments and oil companies.” The inescapable conclusion is that Libya’s 42 billion barrels of oil will be de-nationalized and seized by Western oil firms.
Busidra also insisted that alcohol and homosexuality should become strictly illegal in Libya, as well as “the praise of any religion other than Islam.” [My note: I have no information on Ghaddafi's attitude toward the gay community. Alcohol has been illegal for decades, from what I can find.]
The Globe and Mail explained, “Mr. Busidra’s network is formidable: it includes the long-banned Muslim Brotherhood; the February 17 Martyrs’ Brigade, which is the largest fighting force among the rebel armies and is led by the influential cleric Ismail Al-Sallabi; the even more popular cleric, Mr. Sallabi’s Doha [Qatar]-based brother SheikhAli Sallabi; and a half-dozen other imams and leaders well known in Libya, including more moderate former members of the long-banned Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. Mr. Busidra’s circle is opposed to the extreme Islam of Al Qaeda and other radical groups.”
The distinction the Globe and Mail makes between members of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) and Al Qaeda is largely imaginary, however. The LIFG was founded by Libyan veterans of the 1980s Soviet-Afghan war, and thus shares historic ties with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda grew out of the Maktab Al Khidamat, the group that oversaw international recruitment, funding, and re-supply of Muslim volunteers for this war....
http://tinyurl.com/4xsaqpx
--------------------------------
So we are giving the Libyans "democracy" by turning their country into a client state/colony run by an offshoot of al Qaeda. And along the way, de-nationalizing their bank and oil industry. We also are killing civilians by the dozens, targeting their television and other communication centers, water supply routes, hospitals and houses of worship, and dumping depleted uranium all over the country - not that the US media is covering any of this.
—teri49
--
Again -- He assured the Globe and Mail that he would “remain favorable toward the West and its governments and oil companies.”
I think we can now put to rest the idea that Al-Qaeda is anything but a US-backed entity. Radical Islamist movements have almost invariably been funded, organized and armed by the US and Israel as a bulwark against secular nationalism. When such groups become legitimately independent, as in the case of Hezbollah, they are cut loose; otherwise they remain on the empire's payroll. There are more than 1 billion Muslims on the planet; only a tiny, tiny minority are actually interested in creating Islamist states; yet this minority is given extraordinary influence by the empire. Anything is better than socialist or just plain nationalist states. Great boogeyman to frighten God-fearing Murikans, too.
I guess Durrutix beat me to it. It's unconscionable that Greenwald should say those extreme things about Gaddafi. He was/is a strongman, one among many. But he was also a nationalist who distributed much of the wealth of the nationalized oil to provide services and education for his citizens.
The kings and princes and emirs of the Arab world, the torturers and exterminators who ruled Indonesia and various Asian, Central American and South American African nations, are more worthy of those epithets and- --if one were to support "humanitarian intervention"-- would be more logical targets.
No, Glenn. (And Amy G., who with Libya seems to have lost any objectivity or power of analysis) This was about eliminating yet another independent agent in OPEC (Saddam and Gaddafi down; Iran and Venezuela next), about revenge for Gaddafi getting rid of US and NATO presence, for his nationalization of oil and industry, for his refusal (until he was forced to cave in) to adopt the full neoliberal agenda for decades, for his earlier support of Palestine, for his recent leadership seeking to forge African unity in the face of AFRICOM and European countries determined to keep up the proxy wars of attrition and to control resouces. It's about the strategic value of Libya, with its borders on important Maghreb countries and on sub-Saharan countries like Niger with their abundant resources (including uranium, coltan,etc.).
It's about testing a new generation of weapons and fighter planes so India and other potential buyers can see them in action. It's about Canada (here I want to spit in rage) wanting to be like the Big Boys and become a major military force. (A Canadian general has proudly assumed the role of butcher-in-chief for the bombings of Libya, probably with D.U. - the gift that keeps on giving.)
It's about Al Qaeda fighters thirsty for the blood of their former oppressor Gaddafi and for other "infidels", now being accepted as freedom fighters (Afghanistan 1980 redux) and given free-fire support by NATO.
It's about the revenge sought by the tribe of King Ydris, whom Gaddafi deposed in 1969.
It's about privatizing the resources, the infrastructure, health care and education (all free and universal under Gaddafi).
Whatever legitimacy there may be among the rebels must be weighed against the motivation of NATO and of the Islamic extremists, and against the plan to defang OPEC and to stop genuine nationalist movements and any form of socialism-- from Yugoslavia's under Milosevic to Iraq's under Saddam to Libya's..
Anyone who cheers this so-called liberation now will have a rude awakening in the not so distant future.
I'm not of the same viewpoint to begin praising the fantastic and supposed accomplishments of the 'great leader' as you and others seem to be doing now, Hoodeet. Gaddafi's record is not one of great progress at all, and many Libyans have very good reason indeed to support his overthrow. Still, all of us in the US or British Left should know very well that this uprising was not just some spontaneous spread of dissent there in North Africa, though many seem to be telling themselves that that this might just be somehow so!??? The imperialist Empire's forces are very much in charge and are channelling quite well the 'Arab Springs's results across the region. To make oneself part of the lemming like group of 'Left' cheerleaders of uprising without any rhyme or reason to understanding which forces are doing what, where, and when is rather dull of mind IMO. I am totally turned off by the Imperialist 'Socialists' who are cheering on the making of a new genocidally oriented leadership in the South Sudan, which US imperialism succeeded in splitting off greater Sudan. These are the very same'Lefty' types cheering on the hoped for future falls of governments in Libya and Syria, as well... both countries that the Pentagon is working hard to topple.
Gaddifi is a thug, a dictator, a murderer. He was a big supporter of Idi Amin, and bankrolled and even trained several other murderous African dictators. That's pretty extreme, no? Why is it "unconscionable" and "extreme" for someone to point out those facts?
.
Furthermore, Democracy Now has been one of the few news sources even bothering to cover the war in Libya and has done regular reports on civilian deaths caused by NATO bombings, the use of depleted uranium weapons, and the humanitarian and political consequences and the legality of the war. DN interviewed reporter who had been in Benghazi and said he had seen no evidence of an imminent massacre - the main justification for the war. DN has been consistently skeptical and critical of the military intervention in Libya. So how exactly has Amy Goodman lost her objectivity and power of analysis on Libya?
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Pointing out that Gaddafi is a dictator does not make a person a cheerleader for this illegal war.
wtf are you blathering about?
No doubt Khadaffi's no Martin Luther King [but neither is Obama - who subtly dissed MLK during his 'War is Peace' Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech] -but too often main-stream liberals like Glen Greenwald seem to have to go out of their way criticize Khadaffi [by comparing him to Saddam Husein - even though Khadaffi is probably more comparable to Fidel Castro or better still Gamal Abdel Nasser] in order to criticize unprovoked unjustified & even out-right illegal wars of aggression by the US & NATO. Perhaps they think that'll cause them to be taken more seriously - maybe they are 'AFFRAID' that if they don't they'll be accused of supporting an alleged [demonized] dictatorial 'vicious' tyrant. Perhaps Mr Greenwald even believes all the lies &/or hype [BS] that Khadaffi- was going to massacre everyone in Benghazi..., Black Mercenary fighters..., gave viagra to his troops for mass rapes...
In his defense of Rep Kucinich's objection to this unprovoked, unjustified & illegal attack on Libya Mr Greenwald apparently failed to mention that Kucinich talked about Op Southern Storm which indicates that the FUK-US NATO Group probably planned their assault on Libya at-least as early as Nov 2010, or that Kucinich condemned in the strongest terms FUK-US NATO's attempt(s) to assassinate Khadaffi on April 30th [just 1 day before that dubious 'bin Laden Kill' Op] - murdering his son & 3 small grand-babies in the process?! - Yet few so-called anti-war liberals [like Mr Greenwald] will mention Khadaffi's true accomplishments for Libya & Africa [1 which You missed in your extensive list here is the 'Great Man-Made River' which supplies 70% of Libya's fresh water - FYI: Water is more precious than even oil, Especially in a Desert] - for 'Fair & Balanced' reporting...
If the so-called anti-war 'left' really wants to stop the military industrial intel security complex [MIISC] freight train from running off the rails as it goes looking for other demons to slay - they better start talking straight & stop giving weak pussy-footed pseudo-intellectual arguments which give the true aggressors [US, UK, France & NATO IE FUK-US NATO] an out- [Well after all he- IE: Saddam, Khadaffi, & next most likely on the {s}HIT List Assad, Mugabe, the Iranian Mullahs, Chavez {who they've already tried once & even though he's a democratically elected leader} etc, etc ,etc- was a dictator & vicious tyrant...].
Mr Greenwald [& all other doubled-minded so-called anti-war liberals] would do well to remember the Bush / Cheney / NeoCon so-called 'Axis of Evil' {s}HIT List & who was on it [except N Korea which US-NATO already attacked once in the 1950s but are unlikely to mess w now - because N-Korea Really does have a Nuke Weapons Prog & the World's 4th largest manned army] - there was Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya... Bush / Condi Rice / NeoCons did Iraq & it looks like Obama / Billary / Susan Rice / Neo-Liberals may have done in Khadaffi in Libya [sounds like COG = Continuity of Gov't = SOS - don't matter if its under a Dim or Repug regime]... Now they're rattling the sabers for Assad in Syria, after that they'll probably go for Iran [whom they've been rattling the sabers at for yrs now]. Mr Greenwald & others better realize the MIISC ain't gonna stop w Libya - & thus need to 'Man-on-Up' if they TRULY plan on stopping these 'War-Pigs'...
the USA is world's worst tyrant
NATO and the neocons led by HIllary Clinton have been lying about this war from the very beginning and I have no doubt that they have killed as many if not more civilians than even Gadaffi's henchmen. NATO is now assuming the role of the world's dictatorship ready to impose its will on people in the third world whenever and wherever it feels like it.
The scumbags controlling NATO don't care about anything except short-term profit grab. If it doesn't work out for them, others pay the price, and the scumbags move on to the next atrocity.
Libya may quickly become an incredibly rich honeypot for the U.S. military-industrial-complex. A completely new Libyan armed forces will have to be supplied with rifles, cannon, tanks, troop carriers, airplanes, small coastal war ships, ammunition, barracks, air defenses, in short everything armed forces need, except nuclear weapons. The tab will run into the hundreds of billions of dollars and the program will conveniently (for the Obama administration) "create jobs" here in the USA. And of course the Libyan armed forces will need "trainers". Many "trainers". Preferably U.S. "trainers". This "selfless aid" will be paid with Libyan oil. A fly in the ointment will be: how many Libyan armed forces will there be? Another fly: how many billions will disappear without a trace? A third fly: will the armed forces of Egypt feel threatened?
Glenn, I understand your frustration and your seeming need to rationally explain how hideous a country we have become but it might help accentuate your point if every now and then you just write one sentence to sum up what is really and truly the case in the US.
How about this, Glenn?
Just type it under your byline and call it a day.
The United States and NATO are murderers and thieves.
THE END.
No need to explain, as explanation just gives the fascists more fodder.
No need to justify as any one with a half a brain doesn't need to hear it.
Just tell the truth.
We are murderers and thieves killing innocent people around the globe and stealing what belongs to them.
The United States.
Murderers.
Thieves.
"exuding indifference to the plight of Libyans."
This is my favorite. Things gonna get better real soon. Yeah. Real soon.
Better for the global oil giants.
I agree with Durrutix et al.
Glenn's insistence on expressing an unqualified denunciation of Gadaffi seems to me to arise from a moderate-thinker reflex or habit: when condemning the heinous and atrocious means to an end, they also feel compelled to grant, however implicitly, that there's a silver lining or redeeming aspect to that illicitly-come-by end.
So he needs to make clear that he shares the conviction that Gadaffi-- like Saddam, Milošević, Noriega, et al-- is obviously a villain who deserves whatever he gets, regardless of how wrong and inexcusable the machinations that led to his comeuppance.
And in turn, they tend to get very defensive or outraged when their blanket condemnation is criticized or called into question.
Speaking of Milošević, a while back I ventured to tell my super-intelligent and well-informed but moderate brother that I'd been reading some stuff about the disintegration of Yugoslavia and the Clinton/NATO intervention that opened my eyes to how naïvely I swallowed the "humanitarian intervention" spin.
Without missing a beat, my brother immediately and censoriously asked incredulously if I was going to claim that Milošević was a "hero", or "innocent victim"; he warned me not to buy into whatever "revisionist" stuff (Michael Parenti) I was reading if that was its perspective or claim.
I hadn't said one goddamned word in sympathy of Milošević or the other political leaders in the Balkans, much less defended him as a misunderstood good guy.
I hadn't gotten that far before my brother jumped all over me and insisted that I agree that Milošević was a very, very bad man. I felt like smacking him, but instead I remained the bigger little brother and we compromised by agreeing that none of them were angels or saints.
I've always thought that Glenn and my brother would get along beautifully.
Why shouldn't GG express an unqualified denunciation of a murderous dictator, a good friend and supporter of Idi Amin and numerous other murderers and thugs? Should we go easy on, or "moderate" our language about Gadaffi cuz ... of what exactly? Cuz he was an occasional gadfly to the American empire? Cuz, ostensibly, Gaddifi is a socialist? Cuz Oblahblah launched an illegal war against him?
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I mean, what's your criteria for moderating your criticism of a dictatorship?
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If GG is implying a "silver lining reedeming aspect" to the illegal war by denouncing Gaddafi then can't we assume, by the same tenuous logic, that you are giving Gaddafi's a pass on his crimes by not denouncing him?
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I have not heard a more cogent argument against Oblahblah's illegal war than the one offered by Glen Greenwald. So I find it strange that some here on CD would imply that GG is actually making a de facto argument for the war, or at least purposely diminishing the case against the illegal war, simply by criticizing Gaddafi "too much."
Yes we should recognize that Gaddafi was less than perfect and is no Jesus Christ, Franciszek2. But you ask also if we should go easy on or moderate 'our' language about him why the Pentagon in our country tries to topple him to benefit the imperialist multinational corporate set? And I in turn would ask you if you really think the pro war propaganda machine in the US and Western Europe needs our help so very much in aiding them in 'denouncing' Gaddafi so they can get on about moving new numbers of US troops and other mercenaries for the Empire into Africa in the years ahead? Evidently you think that it is crucial that the US Left show its hatred for the enemies of the US Empire LOUDLY and in coordination with the pro war press. I would ask you why you think such?
You need to read the full article!
Greenwald says "no decent human being" can "feel sympathy" for Gadaffi.
THAT is what people are reacting negatively to, NOT Greenwald's assessment of Gadaffi himself.
Greenwald demands that we have the right to separate the legality of the War from the success of the War, then insists we do NOT have the right to separate our opinions of the Gadaffi from the Monster Caricature of him that the War Propaganda has presented us with.
"Unqualified denunciation of a murderous dictator" is just fine, it is the unqualified dismissal of independently garnered information that is the problem in this article.
"I mean, what's your criteria for moderating your criticism of a dictatorship?"
I might as well ask, what is your criterion for moderating your criticism of a plutocracy? You have consistently failed to denounce the American plutocracy.
In the USA you get to vote D or R and regardless of who you vote for, the people who got in must do the bidding of the very rich. They could not have gotten in without the rich. They cannot stay in without the rich. The very rich control the campaign funds, the MEDIA and the bribes of various legal and illegal kind. The so called "democracy" provides a veneer of respectability for propaganda purposes, but it is no more than that. It does not give representation to the people, but representation to the rich.
The end result of this is that in the USA 5% of the people own 85% of the wealth. The end result is that in the world's richest country ordinary people struggle to even make ends meet. Another result is that we are forced to pollute pollute pollute in order to keep profit high. This is definitely not a government by the people or for the people. It is a government for the rich by the rich.
Smaller governments whose media is owned by foreign rich, if they have something called a "democracy" operate for the benefit of foreign corporations. The government is at the mercy of foreign corporations, as Libya was before Gadaffi and will be again. The people are kept poor, because the money is siphoned out.
Yes, government that truly represented the people would obviously look after the people. Western style democracies, on the other hand are tools of repression.
In stark contrast to the plutocracy of the USA, Gadaffi distributed wealth. They had the highest standard of living, education, health and housing. In most puppet regimes only the very top get rich and most of the money is siphoned out. Dictator or not Gadaffi was a man who look after the people of his country instead of selling them out to the foreign rich.
Gadaffi's good deeds are many, for Libya and for Africa. And it is because of those, including Banking, that he became a target for invasion.
"Gaddifi spread the wealth around, his good deeds are many.."
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You have got to be sh*tting me.... Gaddifi rules over one of the biggest countries in Africa, a country that is loaded with natural resources, a country with a tiny population. He pocketed billions of dollars in oil money, just like Mubarack in Egypt, stolen from the people of his country. He also stole something even far more valuable from the people of his country ... the right of self determination. The idea that he "spread the wealth around" is ludicrous.
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"You have got to be sh*tting me"
Why that would totally run against the sh*tload of western propaganda you have been endlessly fed!
Libya had one of lowest rates of poverty in the world. Not just like Mubarak. Good medical facilities, education and housing. Not just like Mubarak. This is still acknowledged even in wikipedia. Libya has been invested into world assets, that have have been frozen. Not just like Mubarak. "Pocketed billions of dollars in oil money" is something that you are going to have to support with something more than western propaganda.
From Brian Becker (answer coalition):- QUOTE
"Illiteracy was basically wiped out, while education and health care were free and extensively accessible. By 2010, the per capita income in Libya was near the highest in Africa at $14,000 and life expectancy rose to over 77 years, according to the CIA’s World Fact Book.
...
The collapse of the Soviet Union and the “socialist bloc” governments of central and Eastern Europe in 1989-91 deprived Libya of an economic and military counter-weight to the United States, and the Libyan government’s domestic economic and foreign policy shifted towards accommodation with the West.
...
But Gaddafi himself is still considered a thorn in the side of the imperialist powers. They want absolute puppets, not simply partners, in their plans for exploitation. ... Gaddafi even threatened to re-nationalize western oil companies’ property unless Libya was granted a larger share of the revenue for their projects.
UNQUOTE
If the Pentagon, CIA, oil corporations and Wall Street succeed in installing a client regime in Tripoli (and that is what this war is all about) all of the talk "self determination" will be utter pie in the sky or should I simply say "will be nothing more than western propaganda".
You still have not condemned the American plutocracy for hijacking the right of "self determination" from the people.
Why don't you Americans (well it's westerners, this is mostly applicable to all rich western liberal democracies in different degrees, but you get the point) first get rid of your own mass murderers, who are responsible for as many deaths as Qaddafi, and in other countries to boot, not your own, before declaring who is evil and should be got rid of? Put your own shit in order first before you judge others. Bush (and maybe even Obama) is objectively responsible for more deaths and human suffering than Qaddafi, so why don't you freedom fighters go and judge hím first? He's your guy after all and there would be no need for civilian deaths. Or do you think the Libya type solution of some other countries bombing Washington to shit is the way to go? Frankly, it would be much more logical in this case, as quite a lot of US aggression goes against foreign countries, not its own people.
Overall, it's pot kettle whatever, disgusting hypocrisy. Your presidents supported much worse people, for way more disgusting reasons. How many big time dictators could anyone list who couldn't even exist without material and other support from the US? All of you disgusting judgmental hypocrites, go fuck yourselves.
And honestly, even the idea that if only Congress passed this resolution or that, the war would be "legal" is blood boiling. As if you yourselves alone had this right. Fuck it. You don't, no matter what formalities you dress this shit up in.
seems to me like what is happening is this: first the u.s. started bombing a defenseless, war weary Afghanistan, and hardly anybody complained. so then they made up a list of pathetically lame excuses for knocking out Iraq, and while some did complain it did not seem to matter. then obomber himself climbed aboard and seeing a completely ravaged and ruined Afghanistan, concluded it needed more bombing, and did it with unmanned remote control drones, then took to murdering people in Pakistan the same way. throughout all these years people got very much accustomed to warfare without end, and so did not mind when obomber decided to hit Somalia, and now whoever, NATO, wanted Lybia, and they are far from finished.
War has become the normal state of being for the u.s., and by extension, for the whole world. Talk about your merchants of death!
Already countless civilians have been butchered by NATO and their terrorist rebel minions. That blood is on all of the war supporters' hands. Keep that in mind the next time the Democratic Party asks for your money or your vote.
"you're either with us or you're with the terrorists"
what utter crap.