Nader. We've know where he stands for decades.

You, me, everyone who wants to do something, who knows that fundamental changes are needed but who also know that the elites in either party won't deliver the goods. We need to fundamentally change economic policies. We need to fight for participatory measures to national decision making. We need to push for alternatives institutions, not corporations but cooperatives. We should push for things like participatory budgeting. There are no heroes. Organize, educate, agitate and let the gutless politicians follow. WE could and should lead. These mindless elites are not Plato's philosopher kings, they are weak sellouts who need to be lead. They are, for the most part, incapable of leading.

Hey, I've got a great idea! How about you and "maciek" the Paulbot get into the ring together and, umm, work things out? I'll make the popcorn.

I am proud and glad that I voted for the Green Party candidate Cynthia McKinney in 2008.

I will not vote for any candidate from either the Democrat or Republican wing of the Corporatist-Militarist Ruling Class Parasite Party.

I know of no example, not one, where progressive change happened within a corrupt political party. The PRI in Mexico had power for decades. Change, probably for the worse, had to happen outside that horrible structure. Change hasn't happened in the Liberal or Conservative Party in Colombia, nor will it. Change didn't happen in Eastern Europe quickly or within the Communist Party. The Spanish Revolution was decades in the making. In Bolivia it took the MAS to come to power for change to happen and in that country it was and is the social movements, outside the control of any party really, that wield power. The Colorado Party in Paraguay was in charge for decades and change, moderate at best, only happened when a new party and lead emerged. In Mexico, where workers are trying for form independent unions, are they talking about simply reforming the horribly corrupt state union?

Small groups of radicals worker together, they organized, educated, they grew, and after a number of years their work bore fruit. If you know of a single example of working with horribly corrupt, controlled parties, and that leading to change, post it. Just one.

Your post was for the most part correct and well said. I just have no faith at all that the Democrats, on a national level, will do anything to help the situation anymore.

Put it this way. IF you got rid of the right wing, pro-corporate Democrats you would have to start at the very top, the brain trust. Then you would get rid of the Ben Nelson's of the world. If you did that, in the world we live in, it would result in short term losses. Ben Nelson and his supporters would not support a left wing Democratic Party and, given things like Citizens United, the Republican Party would be even MORE swimming in money and corporate cash than it currently is. Think about how much work that would be? Would it be more logical, or any less work, than forming something outside of that corrupt party?

Brad in SoCal wrote:

If we are serious about social change, we have to engage with a broader spectrum of people, many of whom haven't had a chance to develop an alternative worldview but are just frustrated and scared at what they see happening around them. It's tough, slow work best done one on one. Fortunately, sometimes an event happens, like Wisconsin, that throws masses of people into motion and makes it possible to talk about alternatives on a larger scale.

The problem right now is that there is no "clearinghouse of the left" to organize such an alternative discussion, just many individuals and small (relatively) groups doing their best to respond to huge issues: the fiscal crisis of the state, the empire and its manifestations, the environmental crisis, the attack on unions, just to name a few. We need the Greens, the labor folks, DSA, PDA, and other groups and individuals to get together as best they can around a progressive agenda.

I suggest an inside/outside approach: find a credible candidate to mount a challenge to Obama in the primaries, and then run an independent candidate in the fall. However, we must do this with no illusions about winning in the short term.

Anybody out there remember the Citizens Party in 1980? Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition? I worked on both. We lost. So did Ralph Nader. All we can do is our best. As Frederick Douglass said long ago, "Men may not get all they pay for in this world, but they must certainly pay for all they get." Indeed.

* * * * *

My Reply;

Brad in SoCal,

Yes, I remember Barry Commoner and Sonia Johnson and the Citizens Party, and I voted for Jesse Jackson in the Democratic Primary in Massachusetts in 1988.

Thank you for your past efforts. I agree with much of what you have said in this post. Hopefully, you still have some energy left to somehow support the left even if you do end up voting for Barack Obama.

Voting for Barack Obama is something I cannot do (and did not do in 2008), even though I suspect that an Obama victory in 2012 is more likely to convince more people to abandon the Democrats than a Republican victory.

The importance of supporting the opposition and directly building the credibility and power of the opposition is worth more I think that the "good" (i.e. increased rejection of corporate Democrats) that the damage caused by an Obama second term will do.

Besides there is always the possibility that we will get both an opportunity to build the opposition now and the increased rejection of the Democrats caused by a second Obama term in office.

@ Brad

Translation: "I have no personal power, so it is better to reward a Democratic president who destroyed the social saftey net, and engages in interminable war, to a tea party nut case who will destroy it, and engage in endless war"

Like Hedges prophetically noted: in twenty years the elites will be living in gated communities while the rest of us participate in a Orwellian downslide.

Dear Brad In SOcal : Voting for people opposed to your interests is the wrong answer, Bachmann and Obama are the same policy, Obama has not changed a single policy from the previous regime, Bachmann is simply a bookend on the same fascist bullshit. You also want to have it both ways, so let me ask you this: If you would cave on every issue what are you fighting for? This is not a question of being nice, or moral-" the puppies" are being drowned right now and you are saying essentially "Obama's way of drowning them is more palatable to me". It is called fighting for what you want for a reason-so what do you want? It is amazing that you dismiss the vey community you are imploring to "coalesce around me". And finally the most salient point is that nobody is irrelevant- your attitude is the same as the oligarchy, if you want anything to change you should examine your own personality and understand that we are already a "clearinghouse" of people.

PuffinThrush,

I totally disagree. Have you forgotten the surge to vote for a "change" candidate Obama, after Dubya? It was after Obama failure, in 2010 the Repug recaptures the House and almost the Senate. Did Dubya succeed in privatization SS? NO! Will Obama succeed? YES!. He even begs the Repugs to take it from the table without any tax cut in return.

If a NeoCon now in the WH, you bet there will be an American's Spring, no? I did not make all these up, it is happening as we spoke (more or less).

One final note: Sometimes, the next few days. Obama, will be on TV and said something like, “We won, and averted the debts crisis. We work together for the good of the working people, the hard-working Americans.....” Full of bull! You will see his polls number will shoot up immediately. Man, it's pure craps.

KrazyKatz,

I'm from the North of CA and I share your views. I am all for the Green, but.......??

The solution for the Greens -especially the California Greens as one of the largest State Parties- in 2012 is to forget -or back-burnerize- the Prez Campaign.

That's where most of the media and "elite" attention will be, so the Greens should avoid it as best they can. The surest way to overcome the "spoiler" label that haunts the Greens is to not run a potential "spoiler".

The push for the Greens next year should be:

1. Build State Parties, in members and State and Local Elected Officials.

2. Elect at least one Rep to the House. Find several possible districts (strong candidate, vulnerable opponent), throw a ton of national $ and effort at them, hopefully win at least one.

The gain in members and elected officials will result in gains in credibility and $ which will in turn result in gains in members and elected officials... and so forth.

If the Greens can accept a strategy of such a sort by the beginning of the new year- or even next spring- it would have plenty of time for effective implementation for the 2012 campaign season.

-matti.

People like you will ensure the Greens are never "broad enough." This makes you the enemy as you support the status quo.