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Waging Another Unconstitutional War
The meticulous Harvard Law Review editors should be rolling over in their footnotes. The recidivist violations of constitutional and statutory requirements by their celebrated predecessor at that journal – Barack Obama has reached Orwellian dimensions in the war against Libya.
You see, the widespread daily bombing of Libya, the strict naval blockade of Muammar Gadhafi-controlled Libya, the destruction of Gadhafi's family compound and tent encampment in the desert--killing his son and three grandchildren--and the deployment of special forces inside Libya is not a "War." It is in the Obama White House's evasive nomenclature just a "time-limited, scope-limited military action" Can you find that phrase in the Constitution?
If Obama used the word "War," he would have a more difficult time explaining to Congress and the American people (three out of four oppose this war) why he did not (1) seek a declaration of war under Article I, section 8, clause 11 of the Constitution, or (2) seek Congressional authorization for appropriated funds to further the war with our NATO co-warriors, or (3) comply with the deadlines of the War Powers Resolution. He threw all three lawful restraints on his Presidential unilateralism overboard.
So, in the invidious tradition of George W. Bush and his indentured confessor, Justice Department lawyer, John Yoo, now comfortably ensconced on the law faculty of the University of California Berkeley, Mr. Obama is blithely claiming as authority for taking our country into another war "the inherent powers of the President under Article II of the Constitution." This wouldn't pass the laugh test by Jefferson, Madison, Franklin Mason or even Hamilton. James Madison believed placing the war-declaring power in the exclusive hands of Congress was the most significant achievement during the convention in Philadelphia that summer of 1787. No more King George substitutes for America's future, they demanded.
Note that Libya did not attack the U.S. or its appendages, and did not attack a member of NATO. Obama admits these points. Libya's trusting government sovereign fund even left $37 billion in the U.S. which Obama promptly froze. Lacking even the prevaricatory pretenses for Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003, Obama and Hillary Clinton now say the U.S. is militarily involved "to protect our interests and advance our values" in the region and, of course, to protect the "universal rights" of the Libyan people. (Opportunities abound for this Obama doctrine around the world from the Congo to Syria, to Burma, to occupied Palestine and many other areas.)
Desperately seeking legitimacy, Mr. Obama cites the UN resolution, NATO, and the Arab League instead of seeking it from Congress. For all treaties with foreign countries, including the UN Charter, are trumped by the U.S. Constitution (Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957)). As a former teacher of constitutional law, the President knows this basic principle but then, as Lord Acton declared: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Congress, rendered a rubber stamp by President George W. Bush, is bestirring itself. On June 3, 2011, the House of Representatives passed H.R. Res 292 declaring that the President shall not deploy, establish, or maintain the presence of units and members of the United States Armed Forces on the ground in Libya. On this matter, Obama pleads state secrets.
On June 16, 2011, ten members of the House – five conservative Republicans (including Walter B. Jones (Rep. N.C.) and Ron Paul (Rep. Texas) and five Democrats (including Dennis Kucinich (Dem. Ohio) and John Conyers (Dem. Mich.) filed suit against President Obama in federal district court for an order declaring the U.S. war in Libya "without a declaration of Congress with the use of funds never approved for such a war" to be unconstitutional. Given past judicial decisions declaring members of Congress to have "no standing to sue" on what they call "political matters," this suit is facing an uphill barrier.
Congress has appropriated no money for this war, already costing nearly a billion dollars, nor has the lawless Obama asked for it because he knows there will be strong bi-partisan resistance.
So where is the Congress to go but to the courts to decide this internal, domestic issue affecting the separation of powers provoked by a clearly lawless President? The degraded, politicized, formerly professional, Office of Legal Counsel is a sleazy apologist for presidential overreaching for over two decades.
The expanding immunities of the Executive branch, now increasingly embracing the military contractors of the corporate state, is destroying the remaining pretensions that we are a nation under law. When he was inaugurated as President in January 2009, President Obama said he wanted his Administration to be known as one of "transparency and the rule of law." You'll recall during his 2008 campaign he trumpeted that he would obey the Constitution, inferring the the Republican regime was trampling the Rule of Law.
Indeed in 2007, then Senator Barack Obama stated that "the president does not have any power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." Vice President Biden was even more vehement on this issue. And Secretary of Defense Robert Gates originally opposed the attack on Libya before falling in line.
Gadhafi's dictatorship is a brutal one. Civil wars are brutal. People are dying and suffering. The country is being torn apart. Obama and NATO are not adequately testing offers for a truce and supervised elections. Top level officials are defecting from Gadhafi and hoping to help lead any successor government.
Regimes brutalize their people whether as dictatorships, authoritarian rulers, connected with dominant oligarchies, or through racial, religious or other sectarian repressions. Is the U.S., mired in deep recession, debt and its own kleptocracy, going to continue to police the world with bases, interventions, subversions or occupation?
The cause of human rights everywhere, needs a permanent, well-quipped professional United Nations peace-keeping force and effective international courts to prevent mass massacres and mass brutalities. That time is not near but it should be at the top of the agenda of civilized nations.
The U.S., as the number one military superpower, provoking antagonisms by its penchant for control throughout the world, should not imperially advance our empire. It is that belief which is bringing Right and Left together, not just in Congress, but around the country.
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161 Comments so far
Show AllThank you Ralph.
But why not take this a step further and explore the possible reasons for the war in Libya? Could it be that Gadhafi would not step in line with the U.S. corporate agenda?
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/06/11-5
Thank you, Ralph, for your explanation of some egregious violations of law by our lowly president, The Tom.
Importantly, we are supposed to look to the Framers of our Constitution to determine the limitations on presidential powers when the Executive cannot cite any express authority. What “inherent” powers are implied by stretching the language of Article II? That is for the Supreme Court to say. Unfortunately, the stacked S.Ct. has recently shown that they, too, have no regard for the law. For example, the Court majority appears to consistently and completely dismiss the concept of stare decisis in favor of spinning, circular reasoning (e.g., Citizens United).
“The executive Power shall be vested in a President”; that “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” Art. II. It appears that The Tom thinks he is above the law, as he prefers to simply ignore the War Powers Resolution, even though that law already unconstitutionally expands presidential war-making power.
The Congress is supposed to assert its power to determine when to go to war, but they appear to be fully owned by the MIC and Big Oil, so they forsake their responsibilities as representatives of the public in favor of the interests of Corporate “persons.”
So if none of the branches of our government have any respect for Separation of Powers, or for the law, or for the public, then perhaps We the People (minus Corporate Persons) can demand The Tom be impeached. That would be great, but the levels of public apathy and opinions created by the msm misinformation machine would easily snuff that.
So, why the bipartisan political grandstanding? Oh yeah, elections are coming up. I almost forgot.
No, by any reasonable election time-table, elections are not "coming up". Not for 19 more months. In a sane country, the election season would last 6 weeks. We just had elections 7 months ago.
But in this country, where elections are essentially meaningless, they are treated as sporting events, and used as distractions from real problems that our country faces.
We have no control over our government, but the electioneering obscures that fact to many people.
OK Elections are not coming up, and the government is so corrupt that they don't matter anyway.
If you believe that elections do not matter then what recourse do you leave yourself to effect change? Of course elections matter, but when the two major parties throw up cartoonish liars and frauds then it seems that the duty of a citizen is to protest such treatment. I protest by working to build a third party presence in our political system. Perhaps this is not a way that you find promising. I can accept that but must,perforce ask:
What do you do to return our nation's governance to the people?
Elections are a joke because Diebold machines are easily hacked, and because slime like The Tom do the opposite of their campaign promises. The only solution is a Constitutional Amendment, beginning with the SIX WORDS, "A Corporation is not a Person . . . ."
Many others (e.g., Ralph Nader, Gore Vidal) have suggested this long ago.
These SIX WORDS need to be the rallying cry of the Revolution. The Revolution needs several icons to stand up and speak the truth - We the People have NO voice and are completely ruled by the Corporations. Even if icons stand up, it's a tough battle because the elite own everything.
Elections can be stolen but there is absolutely nothing funny about that. It is still the duty of every citizen qualified to vote to do so. When an election is close it can be rigged when there is a landslide it cannot.
You seem to put the cart before the horse in seeking a Constitutional Amendment , have you forgotten article 5?
To Propose Amendments
Two-thirds of both houses of Congress vote to propose an amendment, or
Two-thirds of the state legislatures ask Congress to call a national convention to propose amendments. (This method has never been used.)
To Ratify Amendments
Three-fourths of the state legislatures approve it, or
Ratifying conventions in three-fourths of the states approve it. This method has been used only once -- to ratify the 21st Amendment -- repealing Prohibition.
The Supreme Court has stated that ratification must be within "some reasonable time after the proposal." Beginning with the 18th amendment, it has been customary for Congress to set a definite period for ratification. In the case of the 18th, 20th, 21st, and 22nd amendments, the period set was 7 years, but there has been no determination as to just how long a "reasonable time" might extend.
Of the thousands of proposals that have been made to amend the Constitution, only 33 obtained the necessary two-thirds vote in Congress. Of those 33, only 27 amendments (including the Bill of Rights) have been ratified.
So, what you ask is for politicians owned lock,stock and barrel by corporations to push forth an amendment rightfully denying those corporations the status of "personhood" in our courts. I think we need a better class of politicians before we get to that step.
Let me comment on what I've said in other posts.
The Chinese (and other nation $tates) send diplomats, engineers, technicians, economic advisiors, artisans, etc. to Libya, the most prosperous nation on the African continent. The United $tates of Perpetual War Profiteering (a.k.a.: NATO) sends cruise missiles, shock an' awe bombers, helicopter gun-$hips and other war mongering horrors to Libya. This happens time and time again... in country after country. So... please tell me! Who is the evil empire here? The violent corn syrup people in faster poo-food Amerika tempt fate; they invite a karma far more horrible and terrifying than 9-11.
That's what's "terrifying" to the passengers here on the lower levels of the USSTitantic. As we were above deck, reporting on the inhumane conditions below deck, we glanced up and saw the iceberg directly ahead. We're yelling, "Look out. Stop. Turn. Don't hit the iceberg!" and they tell the boilermen to stoke the fire, full engines on, as they hold the wheel steady.
The worst part, to continue my analogy, is that there were some other nationals that knew telling the captain was no good so they pitched the inflatable dinghies they brought with them over the side and jumped in and started rowing. Too bad the death spiral of the oversized ship of state is likely to suck them into the vortex as well. Some days I just hate being a human.
Being a human is good if human beings have a sense of morals and the ability to know the difference between good and evil and the power to choose good. I don't hate being human, I just hate being an American.
I want our nation to break into fifty independent republics. Our federal government is not responsive to the voice of the people. Washington D.C is the USS Titanic heading for the iceberg (kind of an old analogy--the ice bergs have melted---better say 'heading for disaster) and we states need to jump ship.
We the people have a better chance of having some democracy in our home states. Wouldn't it be great to have all that money we sent to the fed to stay in our states? I'd much rather spend my tax funds on putting people to work and providing a good standard of living for all of us. I don't like my money to go to the banksters and the ever expanding illegal wars of aggression and plunder.
We need to take care of things at home and mind our own business. Let's return to the Articles of Confederation. Or just accept that a state has the right to secede.
I meant human in the sense because I am moral thus having a limited sway in the current climate of the USA, and because I'm rational I don't indulge in delusional fantasies of magic wand waving so I'm stuck watching the spectacle ( past my efforts to effect change, as I can, in my circle of influence) knowing it's a trainwreck in progress.
You obfuscate the reasons that many progressives object to Paul's platform and vision. There are some planks that progressives applaud, but, if one is knowledgeable about the entire Ron Paul package then one perforce understands the reasons why progressives object to such as an ending to all entitlements, including welfare assistance, public education etal, an ending as well to all government regulatory powers in fact. If you dont think that one is absolutely Ayn Rand nuts then you are refusing to be honest.
Nice! (I'm not being sarcastic here.) Great post! Decentralization. Greater participation is democracy (if you really have to have power). I like Ralph, but when I read that Lincoln was a favorite, (preserving the "union" over eliminating slavery), get serious. Read Leopold Kohr, Schumacher's mentor and reference. BIG is BAD (in it's original meaning), and we the Empire, way bad ,beyond belief ! Work local, WORK LOCAL, work local. Live below FED TAX , WORK LOCAL! Don't ask, petition, push a referendum, (you sure as hell can't vote for it because it won't be offered) DON'T WAIT for the afterlife, the afterburn, the lesser of what you don't want to begin with! Don't wait for leaders - Be the worker. Love unconditionally. NOW SERVING. What are we waiting for? DON'T WAIT!
"So... please tell me! Who is the evil empire here?"
Simple answer: Global financial powers and those nations that support them.
Why else was one of the first official acts of the unidentified Libyan rebels the formation of a bank and oil deals with Qatar.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mainmenu-26/africa-mainmenu-27/6915-libyan-rebels-create-central-bank-oil-company
Why else is the world focussed on "deficit reduction" which does nothing but protect banks while our citizens are unemployed and homeless? And the financial world threatens the sovereignty of countries like Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain, etc...? We're standing back while Wall St. and the IMF try to set the agendas for our societies, after they created a collapse based on greed and corruption yet suffer none of the results. They'll only be happy when they and their cronies own all our national resources and allow the rest of us only the opportunity to sell their used clothing. That's the only crumbs they'll throw the rest of us.
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/tshirttravels/debt.html
President Obama said he wanted his Administration to be known as one of "transparency and the rule of law."
typo allert: should've read "ridicule of law"
Obama Bush Clinton = Lies Lies Lies Kill Kill Kill I did not have sex with I mean I did not nave war with They had WMD's the checks in the mail
I'd like Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton to explain who exactly these armed rebels are and why their cause trumps that of the sovereign government and all the people of Libya.
Even before these "rebels" wrested power from Gaddafi in Libya in fact even before NATO stepped in they set up a bank and signed oil deals with Qatar. How is that possible before a democratic election has even taken place?
http://21stcenturywire.com/2011/03/29/wow-that-was-fast-libyan-rebels-have-already-established-new-central-bank-of-libya/
I am thinking the citizens of the US and NATO countries are not being told the entire story, anymore than they were before we invaded Iraq.
Now the source is a little iffy, but that doesn't mean he's wrong, but Gen Hamid Gul, says those rebels are the shapeshifters at Al Qaida, sponsored By CIA and State Dept.
http://www.collapsenet.com/free-resources/must-see-videos/item/934-gen-hamid-gul-says-us-will-start-wwiii-if-it-widens-war-in-pakistan
Also note the cautionary title.
No end to the "Hitler-Like" enemies we manufacture to attack various places. Didn't we talk about this several years ago at Humboldt State University Ralph? You hung around after your lecture and we discussed how the US is able to concoct new enemies every time it needs to go to war.
Never mentioning the real crimes against humanity; they might look a lot like our friends in Saudi Arabia, so stick with the "Evil Dictator" ruse; works very well. As long as we don't look too close at our government's actions.
"Congress has appropriated no money for this war, already costing nearly a billion dollars"
I think it's time for an independent audit of where the funds for this "mission" are originating. Someone is paying for it.
'zactly! Follow the money... through Wachovia, into Wells Fargo, back to Wachovia....
www.nakedcapitalism.com/.../wachovia-paid-trivial-fine-for-nearly-400-billion-of-drug-related-money-laundering.html
How were Contras funded? http://www.counterpunch.org/webb12172004.html
How did our prior administrations subvert the will of the people and the UN concerning aparteid in South Africa? http://www.counterpunch.org/saspies.html
Where do all these terrorists come from, anyway?http://www.counterpunch.org/tedk.html
Black ops, the gifts that keep on giving. To Empire.
Well Mr. Nader,
If you had stayed out of the presidential race Bush Jr would have never been in the White House and all of the illegal crap he and Cheney created would never have happened in the first place and Obama would not have inherited the incredible mess he obviously doesn't know how to handle.
You will never admit that however.
And your egotistical, self centered motivated replies for your actions back then fall upon at least two deaf ears.. You could have done much better for the citizens of the world, many respect your opinions and writings... I do.
It's a damn shame you interferred, knowng full well that you were just interferring, sending your message, which you may have accomplished, but with absolutly no chance of winning and it put Bush JR in power... Now look where we are. Try looking... Nah, not you.
"egotistical, self centered [sic]"
absolute rubbish...
"your actions back then fall [sic] upon at least two deaf ears.."
actions falling on ears? does not compute...
"you interferred [sic]... and it put Bush JR [sic] in power"
what a simplistic argument... absolute poppycock...
Have you been paying attention?
Obama has not acted in accordance to his campaign at all. Guantanamo, check. Starting new wars that pose no threat to the U.S., check. Embracing all the expanded executive power carved out by Bush, check. Continuing the infringement of American's rights, check.
This false dichotomy political show put on every four years is pathetic. Someone offers an alternative and you blame them for the outcome? Instead of acting subservient to a system that continues the same power grab that's been going on for decades, why don't you take some responsibility for your own actions as an American?
You bet I've been paying attention. My initial comment is none of the mess, Gitmo, Iraq, Afghan, etc that Obama has to deal with would have ever occurred if Gore had been elected,,, and if Nader had stayed out of it there would have been no "hanging chads" to count in Florida and the Supreme Court wouldn't have put Bush JR in office and Gore would have been in the White House.... Bam, case closed!
I'll stand by that belief until the poisons from Fukushima or global warming kill us all.
And that is not "poppycock", it's how it went down. Nader took thousands of votes which were anti Bush votes in Florida and if Nader hadn't been on the ballot in Florida Gore would have received most of those anti Bush votes and would have been our President and Bush's wars would never have occurred. .
And Obama? He's now marching in Bush Jrs footsteps.
Well maciek,
you guessed wrong, I was a democrat and after that mess I regstered independent and have been ever since and I didn't vote for Obama or McCain. I wrote in Michael Moore. He got at least one vote anyway. .
there you go - that one vote could've cost 0 the job!
WayneWR
You keep harping, ad nauseum, that Nader "should have stayed out of it" and that it supposedly was Nader's fault why Gore lost to Bush. What you apparently insist upon ignoring is that, believe it or not, Ralph Nader actually had [and still has, if he so chooses], a right to run for president of the United States. The reason for that is that this right is actually afforded to not only him but to any resident of this country who is at least 35 years of age. So therefore, there was no reason for Nader or any other independent candidate to "stay out of it."
Here is another news flash for you. Not only did Ralph Nader have a right to run for president but people in Florida and the other 49 states and its territories actually had a right to even vote for him if they so desired! Stunning, I know, but true nonetheless. Here is another bit of news that may be shocking to you. The people who had voted for Nader probably did so because they felt that he was a far better choice than either Gore or Bush.
Just in case what I had written was not clear enough for you allow me to state it in this way: People in this country should be allowed to vote for a candidate who does not belong to either the Democratic or Republican party. Since that is the case it then stands to reason that Nader did not not somehow cost Gore the election given the fact that Nader was simply exercising his Constitutional right as a citizen to run for president of the United States. Just like no one forced you to vote for Al Gore or whatever candidate you voted for likewise the people who voted for Ralph Nader did so out of their own free will. Again, either Nader [or any independent candidate] has a right to run for president or he does not. I certainly believe that the former overrules the latter. And since that is true then that means that those who voted for Bush and Gore cost Nader the election
Also, one finds it quite curious how you failed to mention in your rant that if Gore had managed to win Clinton's state of Arkansas then he would have won the presidency. But then, of course, you also conveniently neglected to mention that Al Gore failed to even carry his home state of Tennessee.
To borrow from your words, Bam, case closed!
I'm fully aware of the fact that any citizen born in the US, of the proper age can run for office if they haven't been convicted of a felony and a few other rules.
The point is, and the fact is, if Nadar had not bveen on the ballot in Florida, Gore would have won the presidency. Nader was only trying to (send a message),, ,he was a (spoiler). not a credible candidate. He sent his message and we have paid dearly for it and will be paying forever.
Count the votes Nader took in Florida and figure it out for yourself, or just deny the facts and blather on.
"Count the votes Nader took in Florida and figure it out for yourself, or just deny the facts and blather on."
I did just that. See below.
Or you could blather on...
WayneWR continues to bizarrely ignore the fact, when he states that, "if Nadar [sic] had not bveen [?] on the ballot in Florida...", that Ralph Nader, despite his protestations, had every right to be not only on the ballot in Florida but also every other state in the union. The Democrats, that alleged party of the people, did everything they could to keep Nader from being on the ballot in many other states in the country. Unfortunately this should not come as that much of a surprise as the Democrats conspired with the Republicans and the mainstream media to make sure that Nader would not be able to participate in a televised debate between Gore and Bush in Boston in the summer of 2000 despite having had a legitimate ticket which should have gained him admission to that debate. That could only lead one to logically believe that the last thing that the two major parties and the corporate media would ever desire would be for Americans to actually think that they should listen and see a candidate who, unlike the Democrats and the Republicans, was not beholden to the vested interests.
Erroll,
Thanks for your comments. Well said!
Bill in Dubuque
"And that is not "poppycock", it's how it went down. Nader took thousands of votes which were anti Bush votes in Florida and if Nader hadn't been on the ballot in Florida Gore would have received most of those anti Bush votes and would have been our President and Bush's wars would never have occurred."
-- Your comment is disingenuous. You blame Nader because he got thousands of votes that could have gone to Gore. Bush only 'won' the election by 543 votes. So why are you not blaming the Natural Law party that got 2281 votes? Or the Reform Party that got 17,484 votes? Or the Libertarian Party that got 16,415 votes? Or the Workers World Party that got 1,804 votes? Or the Constitution Party that got 1,371 votes? Or the Socialist Party that got 622 votes? Or the Socialist Workers Party that got 562 votes?
Or why aren't you blaming the problem of the disenfranchised voters? Or why aren't you blaming the voting systems and procedures that failed? Or why aren't you blaming the Supreme Court for appointing Bush to the Presidency? Or why don't you blame the Democrats who voted for Bush (over 200,000), or the thousands of registered Democrats who didn't vote at all?
To focus only on Nader when there were so many other factors is disingenuous.
Why do you do that?
Eric.A.Blair,
You wrote >>> ("Bush only 'won' the election by 543 votes.")
Yep, that is (exactly) my point... Without Nader Bush would have lost by thousands of votes. and a re-count in Florida, the "hanging chads" bull and ths Supreme Court ruling would have never have happened... Gore would have been our president, disagree with the facts if you wish... I won't.
Actully after two years of independents counting those paper ballots in Florida, Bush actually lost by several thousand but it was long past the time the Supreme Court had put Bush in the White House, so that count is irrelevent. .
You have done of piss poor job of side-stepping the numerous other questions I asked you in my comment.
I'm beginning to think you are being more than disingenuous...
Your questons and points are not relevent. My point was Florida and Nader's votes in Florida. You changed the subject which is a strawman style argument.
It came down to Florida. If Gore won Florida he won. He lost Florida by less than 600 votes according to the initial count and the Supreme Court did not allow a fair recoutn and they elected Bush.
If Nader had not been in the race there would have been no recount necessary in Florida and Gore would have been elected, not Bush. That is my entire main point and I am not incorrect. My other point is Nader knew he was a spoiler, he ran to send a message... We got the message alright, Bush/Cheney gave it to us. .
There were many reasons Gore lost, many,,, but none of them have anythng at all to do with what happened in Florida... Gore wins Florida and he's the new president, Nader prevented him from winning Florida... Case closed... Unless you wish to point out typos of a big fingered clumsy typist. .
No. My points are very relevant. You simply don't want to acknowledge these points because it crushes your bullshit meme.
Does it not become increasingly obvious that responding to this delusional and one issue harpy is a rather large waste of time?
WaynWR,
And if the Democrats didn't run, maybe Nader would have won; or if the Republicans didn't run the Democrats would have run. Who are you to suggest that independents should be disenfranchised and not be able to vote for the candidate they want to win?
Oh sure Progressive101,
The (fact) is however, the repugs and dems did have a candidate and Nader took thousands of votes in Florida which prevented the democrat from winning Florida. No matter what else happened in that race, if Gore won Florida he'd have been the president. Can you alter those facts? __ Nope.
And we have all heard the arguments that if Ralph Nader had not been on the ballot the ones who voted for him would have stayed home, which is not reasonable thinking or a reasonable argment. Gore would have gotten most of those votes in Florida wth Lieberman on his ticket and he would have been elected president. Tha tis my argument.
Mr. Blair - If you're right on the numbers you've made what seems to me a very powerful retort.
I add only that it's also impossible to know how many people turned out to vote for Gore who would not have voted at all but for the interest Nader's candidacy engendered in the choice confronting them.
Eric A.
Most intelligently and persuasively well stated.
Bingo!
WayneWR - Assume that you are correct, that although Nader had as much right to run for the presidency as did and does anyone else, win or lose, that if he had not run Gore would have been elected president, and Lieberman vice president. Then what?
ROFL, you are absolutely insane if you truly believe a Gore-LIEBERMAN administration would have been any different than Bush's. Take your White House talking points back to DLC headquarters (i.e. DU and DK).
Bulllshitt... Gore was nothing whatsoever like Bush or Cheney and you should know it. There is absolutely no comparrison. Gore would have never ever had George Tenent the Director of the CIA alter the Annual Intelligence Report to falsely state Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and had purchased uranium from Afeica. Besides that, Gore would never had attacked Iraq because Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan and Iraq or Saddam had zip to do with 9-11.
The war in Iraq was Cheney's War with the brain damaged Bush as his sidekick. And Cheney wanted Haliburton to prosper an so they did. So did Cheney. That set of crimes was not what Al Gore would have ever done. Your accusations are not reasonable, sensible or credible.
What a deluded fool you are. To dump this whole thing on Nader is laughable. It was corruption, not votes, that put Bush in office. The investigation of that election clearly showed that Gore did win--but the Florida votes were manipulated and the Supreme Court was right-leaning. So, if you want to rant about something real, rather than your deluded fantasies, rant about Republican corruption. Nader is one of the most outspoken and courageous advocates for the middle class. You can't shine his shoes. And by the way--running for elected office is not "interfering"--it is the essence of democracy.
You thought wrong _(scribe)_.. Unlike yourself, I disaprroved of Gadaffi committing genocide and approved of the UN Resolution to stop Gadaffi from doing that.
Nadar took thousands of votes in Florida which Gore would have received the majority of and Bush Jr would not have been our president. That's how it is. What did Nadar accomplish by being on the ballot in Florida? Please do tell us!__ Nader knew he could not win the election, that was impossible. So what good did he do? Answer, NONE. But he accomplished a lot of harm,,, lots.
So Bush Jr had his Iraq War, his Afghan War, Gitmo, etc. Those things would never had happened and Libya is not the same no matter what you say. You may support Gadaffi, I choos not to do so. But that issue is way off topic, something you disapprove of.
No _scribe_, the war in liby is on topic.. You bringing up our old disagreement of the UN action and how you support Gadaffi and I do not is off topic... My comments were specifically directed to the point that if Nader had not been on the ballot in Florida, Bush Jr would not have been our president and we wouldn't have the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghan and also I'll add, not now being on the verge of another great depression. I give a great deal of credit for those sorryass things to Ralph Nader.
It has been well proven that (one person) can accomplish a lot and not always good.
And your rant and blaming Nader offers no benefit to anyone nor adds anything constructive.