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Osama bin Laden’s Death: There is Much More to Say
After the assassination of bin Laden I received such a deluge of requests for comment that I was unable to respond individually, and on May 4 and later I sent an unedited form response instead, not intending for it to be posted, and expecting to write it up more fully and carefully later on. But it was posted, then circulated.
That was followed but a deluge of reactions from all over the world. It is far from a scientific sample of course, but nevertheless, the tendencies may be of some interest. Overwhelmingly, those from the “third world” were on the order of “thanks for saying what we think.” There were similar ones from the US, but many others were infuriated, often virtually hysterical, with almost no relation to the actual content of the posted form letter. That was true in particular of the posted or published responses brought to my attention. I have received a few requests to comment on several of these. Frankly, it seems to me superfluous. If there is any interest, I’ll nevertheless find some time to do so.
The original letter ends with the comment that “There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.” Here I will fill in some of the gaps, leaving the original otherwise unchanged in all essentials.
Noam Chomsky
May 2011
* * * *
On May 1, 2011, Osama bin Laden was killed in his virtually unprotected compound by a raiding mission of 79 Navy Seals, who entered Pakistan by helicopter. After many lurid stories were provided by the government and withdrawn, official reports made it increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law, beginning with the invasion itself.
There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 79 commandos facing no opposition - except, they report, from his wife, also unarmed, who they shot in self-defense when she “lunged” at them (according to the White House).
A plausible reconstruction of the events is provided by veteran Middle East correspondent Yochi Dreazen and colleagues in the Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/05/goal-was-never-to-capture-bin-laden/238330/). Dreazen, formerly the military correspondent for the Wall Street Journal, is senior correspondent for the National Journal Group covering military affairs and national security. According to their investigation, White House planning appears not to have considered the option of capturing OBL alive: “The administration had made clear to the military's clandestine Joint Special Operations Command that it wanted bin Laden dead, according to a senior U.S. official with knowledge of the discussions. A high-ranking military officer briefed on the assault said the SEALs knew their mission was not to take him alive.”
The authors add: “For many at the Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency who had spent nearly a decade hunting bin Laden, killing the militant was a necessary and justified act of vengeance.” Furthermore, “Capturing bin Laden alive would have also presented the administration with an array of nettlesome legal and political challenges.” Better, then, to assassinate him, dumping his body into the sea without the autopsy considered essential after a killing, whether considered justified or not – an act that predictably provoked both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.
As the Atlantic inquiry observes, “The decision to kill bin Laden outright was the clearest illustration to date of a little-noticed aspect of the Obama administration's counterterror policy. The Bush administration captured thousands of suspected militants and sent them to detention camps in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanamo Bay. The Obama administration, by contrast, has focused on eliminating individual terrorists rather than attempting to take them alive.” That is one significant difference between Bush and Obama. The authors quote former West German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, who “told German TV that the U.S. raid was ‘quite clearly a violation of international law’ and that bin Laden should have been detained and put on trial,” contrasting Schmidt with US Attorney General Eric Holder, who “defended the decision to kill bin Laden although he didn't pose an immediate threat to the Navy SEALs, telling a House panel on Tuesday that the assault had been ‘lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way’.”
The disposal of the body without autopsy was also criticized by allies. The highly regarded British barrister Geoffrey Robertson, who supported the intervention and opposed the execution largely on pragmatic grounds, nevertheless described Obama’s claim that “justice was done” as an “absurdity” that should have been obvious to a former professor of constitutional law (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-05-03/osama-bin-laden-death-why-he-should-have-been-captured-not-killed/). Pakistan law “requires a colonial inquest on violent death, and international human rights law insists that the ‘right to life’ mandates an inquiry whenever violent death occurs from government or police action. The U.S. is therefore under a duty to hold an inquiry that will satisfy the world as to the true circumstances of this killing.” Robertson adds that “The law permits criminals to be shot in self-defense if they (or their accomplices) resist arrest in ways that endanger those striving to apprehend them. They should, if possible, be given the opportunity to surrender, but even if they do not come out with their hands up, they must be taken alive if that can be achieved without risk. Exactly how bin Laden came to be ‘shot in the head’ (especially if it was the back of his head, execution-style) therefore requires explanation. Why a hasty ‘burial at sea’ without a post mortem, as the law requires?”
Robertson attributes the murder to “America’s obsessive belief in capital punishment—alone among advanced nations—[which] is reflected in its rejoicing at the manner of bin Laden’s demise.” For example, Nation columnist Eric Alterman writes that “The killing of Osama bin Laden was a just and necessary undertaking.”
Robertson usefully reminds us that “It was not always thus. When the time came to consider the fate of men much more steeped in wickedness than Osama bin Laden -- namely the Nazi leadership -- the British government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture. President Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson that summary execution ‘would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride…the only course is to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear’."
The editors of the Daily Beast comment that “The joy is understandable, but to many outsiders, unattractive. It endorses what looks increasingly like a cold-blooded assassination as the White House is now forced to admit that Osama bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot twice in the head.”
In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In June 2002, FBI head Robert Mueller, in what the Washington Post described as “among his most detailed public comments on the origins of the attacks,” could say only that “investigators believe the idea of the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon came from al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan, the actual plotting was done in Germany, and the financing came through the United Arab Emirates from sources in Afghanistan…. We think the masterminds of it were in Afghanistan, high in the al Qaeda leadership.” What the FBI believed and thought in June 2002 they didn’t know eight months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence. Thus it is not true, as the President claimed in his White House statement, that “We quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”
There has never been any reason to doubt what the FBI believed in mid-2002, but that leaves us far from the proof of guilt required in civilized societies – and whatever the evidence might be, it does not warrant murdering a suspect who could, it seems, have been easily apprehended and brought to trial. Much the same is true of evidence provided since. Thus the 9/11 Commission provided extensive circumstantial evidence of bin Laden’s role in 9/11, based primarily on what it had been told about confessions by prisoners in Guantanamo. It is doubtful that much of that would hold up in an independent court, considering the ways confessions were elicited. But in any event, the conclusions of a congressionally authorized investigation, however convincing one finds them, plainly fall short of a sentence by a credible court, which is what shifts the category of the accused from suspect to convicted. There is much talk of bin Laden's “confession,” but that was a boast, not a confession, with as much credibility as my “confession” that I won the Boston marathon. The boast tells us a lot about his character, but nothing about his responsibility for what he regarded as a great achievement, for which he wanted to take credit.
Again, all of this is, transparently, quite independent of one’s judgments about his responsibility, which seemed clear immediately, even before the FBI inquiry, and still does.
It is worth adding that bin Laden’s responsibility was recognized in much of the Muslim world, and condemned. One significant example is the distinguished Lebanese cleric Sheikh Fadlallah, greatly respected by Hizbollah and Shia groups generally, outside Lebanon as well. He too had been targeted for assassination: by a truck bomb outside a mosque, in a CIA-organized operation in 1985. He escaped, but 80 others were killed, mostly women and girls, as they left the mosque – one of those innumerable crimes that do not enter the annals of terror because of the fallacy of “wrong agency.” Sheikh Fadlallah sharply condemned the 9/11 attacks, as did many other leading figures in the Muslim world, within the Jihadi movement as well. Among others, the head of Hizbollah, Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah, sharply condemned bin Laden and Jihadi ideology.
One of the leading specialists on the Jihadi movement, Fawaz Gerges, suggests that the movement might have been split at that time had the US exploited the opportunity instead of mobilizing the movement, particularly by the attack on Iraq, a great boon to bin Laden, which led to a sharp increase in terror, as intelligence agencies had anticipated. That conclusion was confirmed by the former head of Britain’s domestic intelligence agency MI5 at the Chilcot hearings investigating the background for the war. Confirming other analyses, she testified that both British and US intelligence were aware that Saddam posed no serious threat and that the invasion was likely to increase terror; and that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan had radicalized parts of a generation of Muslims who saw the military actions as an “attack on Islam.” As is often the case, security was not a high priority for state action.
It might be instructive to ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush's compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic (after proper burial rites, of course). Uncontroversially, he is not a “suspect” but the “decider” who gave the orders to invade Iraq -- that is, to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: in Iraq, the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country and the national heritage, and the murderous sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region. Equally uncontroversially, these crimes vastly exceed anything attributed to bin Laden.
To say that all of this is uncontroversial, as it is, is not to imply that it is not denied. The existence of flat earthers does not change the fact that, uncontroversially, the earth is not flat. Similarly, it is uncontroversial that Stalin and Hitler were responsible for horrendous crimes, though loyalists deny it. All of this should, again, be too obvious for comment, and would be, except in an atmosphere of hysteria so extreme that it blocks rational thought.
Similarly, it is uncontroversial that Bush and associates did commit the “supreme international crime,” the crime of aggression, at least if we take the Nuremberg Tribunal seriously. The crime of aggression was defined clearly enough by Justice Robert Jackson, Chief of Counsel for the United States at Nuremberg, reiterated in an authoritative General Assembly resolution. An “aggressor,” Jackson proposed to the Tribunal in his opening statement, is a state that is the first to commit such actions as “Invasion of its armed forces, with or without a declaration of war, of the territory of another State….” No one, even the most extreme supporter of the aggression, denies that Bush and associates did just that.
We might also do well to recall Jackson’s eloquent words at Nuremberg on the principle of universality: “If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us.” And elsewhere: “We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well.”
It is also clear that alleged intentions are irrelevant. Japanese fascists apparently did believe that by ravaging China they were laboring to turn it into an “earthly paradise.” We don’t know whether Hitler believed that he was defending Germany from the “wild terror” of the Poles, or was taking over Czechoslovakia to protect its population from ethnic conflict and provide them with the benefits of a superior culture, or was saving the glories of the civilization of the Greeks from barbarians of East and West, as his acolytes claimed (Martin Heidegger). And it’s even conceivable that Bush and company believed that they were protecting the world from destruction by Saddam’s nuclear weapons. All irrelevant, though ardent loyalists on all sides may try to convince themselves otherwise.
We are left with two choices: either Bush and associates are guilty of the “supreme international crime” including all the evils that follow, crimes that go vastly beyond anything attributed to bin Laden; or else we declare that the Nuremberg proceedings were a farce and that the allies were guilty of judicial murder. Again, that is entirely independent of the question of the guilt of those charged: established by the Nuremberg Tribunal in the case of the Nazi criminals, plausibly surmised from the outset in the case of bin Laden.
A few days before the bin Laden assassination, Orlando Bosch died peacefully in Florida, where he resided along with his terrorist accomplice Luis Posada Carilles, and many others. After he was accused of dozens of terrorist crimes by the FBI, Bosch was granted a presidential pardon by Bush I over the objections of the Justice Department, which found the conclusion “inescapable that it would be prejudicial to the public interest for the United States to provide a safe haven for Bosch. ”The coincidence of deaths at once calls to mind the Bush II doctrine, which has “already become a de facto rule of international relations,” according to the noted Harvard international relations specialist Graham Allison. The doctrine revokes “the sovereignty of states that provide sanctuary to terrorists,” Allison writes, referring to the pronouncement of Bush II that “those who harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves,” directed to the Taliban. Such states, therefore, have lost their sovereignty and are fit targets for bombing and terror; for example, the state that harbored Bosch and his associate -- not to mention some rather more significant candidates. When Bush issued this new “de facto rule of international relations,” no one seemed to notice that he was calling for invasion and destruction of the US and murder of its criminal presidents.
None of this is problematic, of course, if we reject Justice Jackson’s principle of universality, and adopt instead the principle that the US is self-immunized against international law and conventions -- as, in fact, the government has frequently made very clear, an important fact, much too little understood.
It is also worth thinking about the name given to the operation: Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound that few seem able to perceive that the White House is glorifying bin Laden by calling him “Geronimo” -- the leader of courageous resistance to the invaders who sought to consign his people to the fate of “that hapless race of native Americans, which we are exterminating with such merciless and perfidious cruelty, among the heinous sins of this nation, for which I believe God will one day bring [it] to judgement,” in the words of the great grand strategist John Quincy Adams, the intellectual architect of manifest destiny, long after his own contributions to these sins had passed. Some did comprehend, not surprisingly. The remnants of that hapless race protested vigorously. Choice of the name is reminiscent of the ease with which we name our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Blackhawk. Tomahawk,… We might react differently if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes "Jew" and "Gypsy".
The examples mentioned would fall under the category “American exceptionalism,” were it not for the fact that easy suppression of one’s own crimes is virtually ubiquitous among powerful states, at least those that are not defeated and forced to acknowledge reality. Other current illustrations are too numerous to mention. To take just one, of great current significance, consider Obama’s terror weapons (drones) in Pakistan. Suppose that during the 1980s, when they were occupying Afghanistan, the Russians had carried out targeted assassinations in Pakistan aimed at those who were financing, arming and training the insurgents – quite proudly and openly. For example, targeting the CIA station chief in Islamabad, who explained that he “loved” the “noble goal” of his mission: to “kill Soviet Soldiers…not to liberate Afghanistan.” There is no need to imagine the reaction, but there is a crucial distinction: that was them, this is us.
What are the likely consequences of the killing of bin Laden? For the Arab world, it will probably mean little. He had long been a fading presence, and in the past few months was eclipsed by the Arab Spring. His significance in the Arab world is captured by the headline in the New York Times for an op-ed by Middle East/al Qaeda specialist Gilles Kepel; “Bin Laden was Dead Already.” Kepel writes that few in the Arab world are likely to care. That headline might have been dated far earlier, had the US not mobilized the Jihadi movement by the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, as suggested by the intelligence agencies and scholarship. As for the Jihadi movement, within it bin Laden was doubtless a venerated symbol, but apparently did not play much more of a role for this “network of networks,” as analysts call it, which undertake mostly independent operations.
The most immediate and significant consequences are likely to be in Pakistan. There is much discussion of Washington's anger that Pakistan didn't turn over bin Laden. Less is said about the fury in Pakistan that the US invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor had already reached a very high peak in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it.
Pakistan is the most dangerous country on earth, also the world’s fastest growing nuclear power, with a huge arsenal. It is held together by one stable institution, the military. One of the leading specialists on Pakistan and its military, Anatol Lieven, writes that “if the US ever put Pakistani soldiers in a position where they felt that honour and patriotism required them to fight America, many would be very glad to do so.” And if Pakistan collapsed, an “absolutely inevitable result would be the flow of large numbers of highly trained ex-soldiers, including explosive experts and engineers, to extremist groups.” That is the primary threat he sees of leakage of fissile materials to Jihadi hands, a horrendous eventuality.
The Pakistani military have already been pushed to the edge by US attacks on Pakistani sovereignty. One factor is the drone attacks in Pakistan that Obama escalated immediately after the killing of bin Laden, rubbing salt in the wounds. But there is much more, including the demand that the Pakistani military cooperate in the US war against the Afghan Taliban, whom the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis, the military included, see as fighting a just war of resistance against an invading army, according to Lieven.
The bin Laden operation could have been the spark that set off a conflagration, with dire consequences, particularly if the invading force had been compelled to fight its way out, as was anticipated. Perhaps the assassination was perceived as an “act of vengeance,” as Robertson concludes. Whatever the motive was, it could hardly have been security. As in the case of the “supreme international crime” in Iraq, the bin Laden assassination illustrates that security is often not a high priority for state action, contrary to received doctrine.
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Show All“Capturing bin Laden alive would have also presented the administration with an array of nettlesome legal and political challenges.” Not the least of which would have been hearing from OBL his side of the Sept 11, story the U.S. role, the Saudi role, etc. Mr. Chomsky quotes various laws in his text. The presence of law in relation to U.S. activities abroad is an illusion which must be dispelled. The U.S. does not act in a lawful manner domestically or internationally.
Using references to Nuremberg for historical purposes is a contrast to the present: the U.S. and our allies are on a new playing field and we make up the rules as we go along. BO is as murderous a thug as GWB and his tribe.
"...the US is self-immunized against international law and conventions -- as, in fact, the government has frequently made very clear, an important fact, much too little understood." This is the heart of the issue. The U.S. has placed itself above the law and we are all in jeopardy because of ths. We attack with impunity. Until we have a truly intelligent, reflective, peaceful president we will be the invaders so we might as well get used to it or take steps to bring about change.
Good comment. And we did have one president that wanted to change many things, especially the CIA, but they killed him.
Ask most Americans what they think of the illegal invasions and they say they support them. Never mind that they are illegal and are just for the profits of the MICC, oil companies, mercs, ect.
But ask them what they would do if another country invaded the US like we did and it is a different story. Myself, I wouldn't mind the Bush compound scenario or a WH one.
But as Chomsky mentioned, they knew if would inflame the Muslims by invading their countries thereby giving them over to increase the GWOT.
I loved the way he brought in the Indians. What we did to them is beyond forgiveness.
And of course it was in the name of Christianity, not genocide or nation stealing.
The US has been a pimple on the world since it's creation.
Don't forget the Maine and all the other FF we have done so we can increase the Empire.
Bin Laden and his group of fanatics are like a ladies bridge club compared to the terrorist government and army of the United States of America.
"The authors add: “For many at the Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency who had spent nearly a decade hunting bin Laden, killing the militant was a necessary and justified act of vengeance.” "
Romans 12:19 (King James Version) "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
I am guessing President Obama has a new job title.
I am constantly reminded that the work of Eduardo Galleano and Howard Zinn are known to a relative few in the US, while the realities of the empire building that has been going on for 500 years can hardly be mentioned in 'polite' society.
We are as if being the negative space in all the science fiction imagery of the brutal, technocratic barbarian. We are intellectually proud while socially medieval; We have unparallelled archival capacity, but without collective memory; the wealthiest nation in the world, but in social terms the most intense rate of impoverishment relative to that; we have the capacity to visualize street corners and even the faces of people in countries thousands of miles away but have neither the community of enacting the common dream registered by the majority here or the humanity of others elsewhere; 50% of our resource is moved directly into machinery of murder; our manifest destiny is that of the vanishing point; we are resilient, yet are weakest in the face of insanity - because the machinery is idolized; the content is mistaken for and conflated with process, an institutionalized mortal disconnection expecting continued adherence to resolve what it does not represent
Those who pilfer civilization don't act as if they live here, they want to profit on life's necessities and own nature, plus leave pollution and birth defects to the masses. Write in Nunuv Theabove, 2012. Why not? Stars evolve. Spacetime is expanding faster than light. Evolve democracy to a new level. Freedom and information unleashed. Start a free new tradition and see what comes next.
NC will never get to the bottom of the Bin Laden Caper (or 9-11) by restricting himself to Official Sources.
Hey, Brian, did you get "Bin Laden Caper" from me, or is it a happy coincidence? I've made it a standard expression in my comments. It's OK with me one way or the other.
And I had the exact same thought as yours. I refrained from saying so because I know that many CD readers absolutely venerate Chomsky and take umbrage at even the mildest criticism of this icon.
And all the more because I do think Chomsky's analysis, as usual, is trenchant and generally on target.
But in this respect, like journalist Seymour Hersch and others, Chomsky is a skeptic and contrarian who is comfortable accepting and promulgating Official Sources to the extent that they support his narrative.
I've found that it's essential to keep this characteristic in mind, because it's easy to forget it when perusing brilliant analysis. Even the finest tequila is better taken with salt.
My sentiments exactly. I have followed Chomsky for decades, and when something occurred which sent my bullshitometer into the red (an event for which I largely thank Chomsky's teachings) and saw Naom completely silent on the matter, or worse - debunking the entire movement who saw through the truckloads of bullshit (the first of which, for me, was the 'magic passport' discovered 14 hours after the collapse of the towers amidst dozens of square blocks of dust and debris) I could only assume that he'd 'been told' by someone capable of putting the frighteners into him. As it stands, he does seem to use only official source material when it suits his own narrative. I still respect him, but not the way I once did. At least he is now acknowledging that there has never been any proof of OBL's guilt offered which would pass the scrutiny of a legitimate courtroom. He remains silent or contemptuous of a million other legitimate points of disagreement with the official narrative which are easily proven false through official sources. I can't help but wonder why.
I happily acknowledge your recent comments as the source of the phrase "Bin Laden Caper", which I agree captures in a few words the essence of this latest episode.
"Caper" also brings to mind the restaurant health inspection scene from the remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers," and raises the question of whether what we have here is not also a rat turd.
is the opposite of trooferism fallferism?
As usual Noam Chomsky gets it right, except with reference to Geoffrey Robertson, the British lawyer who clearly has it wrong calling the USA, "one of the advanced nations." That is most demonstrably false, and any US citizen knows this. It has been that way since the indigenous people lost out here to the European colonizers and failed to enforce a strict immigration policy which if they had, then America would have been honored and at peace with the world for so long that it might be going on right now, but not enough would listen to the chief who must have been one of Winston Churchill's ancestors.
Of course, likely Churchill was one of those calling for summary execution of the Nazi war crime suspects. Almost surely some US types would have favored the same kind of BS, and some even didn't even want the Nuremberg trials held at all to punish the Nazi war criminals. Some of these were prominent US politicians.
Maybe he should talk about how the Aghan invasion plans were on Bush's desk 2 days before 911(per NBC) with a specific purpose of getting AQ. Interestingly, Wolfowiz told Richard Clark that the AQ threat was overblown and not to focus on them. That is quite the conflicting information coming from the DOD. That simultaneously told intelligence not to worry about AQ while telling the Pentagon to draw up plans for this dire threat.
Surely, it's because of their incompetence and because they were just openly pining for a "New Pearl Harbor" to garner support for a ME reconfiguration.
I guess he could also focus on the war games and how they scheduled drills for that day simulating hijackings that sent fighter planes to Canada disabling defenses as well.
Coupled with the war planning, refocusing intelligence away from the perpetrators and even squashed FBI investigations(with whistle blowers) into the flight schools and you really don't need to focus on strawmen like cell phone calls and thermite, do you?
Uh-huh
Nice, threw a Roswell in there. Well played. Followed up by your own created implausible scenario including hundreds of players, a couple more strawmen and voila! you feel better. Excellent mental squirming to avoid what hits directly over the head. Kind of like finding out daddy is molesting your little sister. Emotion takes over and you can create logic legerdemain to rationalize anything.
Philip Zelikow wrote a nice peace about "catastrophic terrorism" back in 96 in which he laid out exactly how the public and congress would react to something of this nature. He followed it up with a nice little speech on the importance of public myth in creating social functionality and believing it whether true or not. He said it would be a "searing event" that people split history into two parts, before and after said event. This was back in 98. He signed a paper stating the need for a "New Pearl Harbor" to foment public support for a new level of global militarization a year later.
Indeed, means, MOTIVE and opportunity abound in a sea of strawmen.
Plans to invade Afghanistan, Iraq and the patriot act were all done before 911. This is documented, not speculation.
Over 50 warning from other countries ignored, including some very specific
Intelligence was confused and refocused.
NORAD was disabled. The best part about that is the guy who was in charge of NORAD on the biggest defense failure of all time - was promoted
And the biggest, most well funded intelligence apparatus in the world that could not stop it - knew who the perps where within hours as the told everybody on TV.
Yup, no idea it was coming. I mean, the guys who wanted a new pearl harbor must have been devastated. Sure
he.. You pretty much said nothing except common Pavlovian responses. You are also conflating every crackpot theory with what I posited. 911 was ALLOWED to happen and given some level of technical assistance(war games, squashing intelligence inquires, real investigations, etc..)
It's not a fuck up when it achieves a preconceived goal is it? I mean, when "incompetence" leads what you desire, is it really incompetence?
See you really can't call it a fuck up if it leads to something that you deem necessary. That's not a fuck up, it's an ACHIEVED goal.
Yes, the intelligence services at large fucked up - because they were led astray and confused by a few key players. This is well documented with several whistle blowers.
I mean, come on. You have to admit the irony of Cheney being put in charge of domestic terrorism drills via executive order in May and schedueling war games that disabled defenses on 911. The same guy who wanted a "New Pearl Harbor" and was caught a few months earlier perusing maps of Iraqi oil fields and other ME pipelines in his secretive "energy task force" meetings.
Really, that doesn't make you scratch your head at all.
Cheney was checking out ME oil maps while invasion plans for Afghanistan and Iraq were being drawn up before 911. Do you think he was thinking about that "New Pearl Harbor" while doing this? I mean how lucky can a guy get?
Of course, you think it is perfectly reasonable for "terrorists" to pick a day when they were running war drills that confused defenses, but not the possibility that maybe somebody that was looking for a "New Pearl Harbor" could have just aided that process a little.
Bottom line, is the means motive and opportunity is there for the PNAC crew to be SUSPECTS in helping 911 along.
Not that I am holding my breath, but it is blatantly clear some level of COMPLICITY took place. oh, well, it's the end of the empire anyway and this issue will not go away. As the economy progressively gets worse, people will question it more. It was a desperation move to ALLOW it to happen. Though, absolutely everything is blowing up in there faces.
"You, and many others who post on CD wrt 9-11, remind me of the Bobby Moynihan character on Saturday Night Live,"
this explains your fallferism - too much TV.
you coincidence/incompetence theorists crack me up.
The logical gymnastics these people do, just to admit that deny PNAC should be suspects is nothing short of a pathology - all while screaming "You're irrational!"
If there was not a monumental motive with a set of pre-planned military maneuvers ready to launch before that day it should still be criminal negligence.
Touché, yocohoma.
My thoughts exactly, vdb. When TV becomes one's frame of reference, reality goes out the window.
And good work, Arraya and others.
Yo ! Ho, Coma !
Even if you are correct that there is no indication that the USA enabled 9/11, likewise there is no indication it did not.
And comparing one theory with another as proof of falsity is absurd, like claiming Jesus did not walk on water ( which I believe is possible) so 9/11 truthers are incorrect.
yohocoma, why weren't the fighter jets sent to intercept the hijacked airliners in a timely manner?
Why did many of the 9/11 hijackers have ties to US intelligence and militray?
Why were investigations of flight schools quashed at high levels?
the ?'s abound and your rebuttals are inadequate at best. It's easy to smear people by callinng them troofers and conspiricists, but not so easy to expalin away the piles of contradictions in the official explanation.
"That's the idiocy that the conversation needs to move past, that we all need to move past (it's been 10 fricking years now) and that's likely why Chomsky won't touch it. It would make him look stupid, and rightfully so."
Nothing to see here, move along, break it up.
You pose as the logical authority with your superior attitude but it's easy to deny government involbvment in 9/11 since the entire event and the government's response is shrouded in secrecy. You pose as reasonable and intellectaully superior, but you are just that, a poser,who draws strength from relying on the explanations forwarded by the very psychopaths that you condemn. That is not very logical at all.
No thinking person believes the US government anymore. In the case of 9/11 there are many specific reasons to doubt the official version. Chomsky's belligerence towards the 9/11 Truth movement goes well beyond not touching it. He is an aider and abettor of the gov'ts lies in this case, as he has been regading the assasination of JFK.
Even the chairs of the long delayed 9/11 Commission now admit that their findings are faulty; so why does Chomsky, and why do you, show such disdain towards doubters of the official line?
I don't think Chomsky agrees with the "official line".
Letting it happen is not the official line and I never heard Chomsky say that Bush did what was necessary to stop the plot that he was warned about.
The big thing that the Truthers are still afraid to face is that they have no proof of pre planned demolition but there are documents on the facts that Bush knew it was coming and greased the wheels.
Even Osama said he was surprised the towers collapsed.
Bush had all the excuse for his war with the airliners hitting the towers and the pentagon.
And it would be impossible to blame it on the hijackers if he put explosives in all the buildings and aimed a missile at the pentagon.
Not even Bush is that stupid to think it up and magical to get away with it.
Your problem is finding a RESPONSIBLE writer to buy the Truther Tales.
"The big thing that the Truthers are still afraid to face is that they have no proof of pre planned demolition but there are documents on the facts that Bush knew it was coming and greased the wheels."
Why do you paint "truthers" as a monolithic groups with an "official" stance. My personal feeling on the collapses - it's freaking irrelevant - there is enough means, motive and opportunity to show complicity and certain levels of technical assistance(squashing investigations, NORAD disablement, etc..)
I have a theory that the "movement" has been corralled into collapse talk because it opens up a wide variety of speculation.
The original alternative investigated journalists focused on foreknowledge and war games. This is when a large number of family victims, frustrated and not getting answers, started to join forces with "truthers". Once 2004 rolled around it became a "big tent" with all kinds of silly speculations and it killed the serious skeptic inquires.
"Why do you paint "truthers" as a monolithic groups with an "official" stance. My personal feeling on the collapses - it's freaking irrelevant "
Well the Truthers paint themselves into that corner if you were paying attention over the last ten years.
As you should see I agree more with you.
If those who truly believe that Bush planted the demolition bombs why would they vote for anyone who does not buy the whole Truther package and then even a vote for Mckinney is selliing out .
I agree with Mckinney and her suggestion that Bush knew in advance of the September 11 attacks.
Well guess what? - YOUR A TRUTHER! Yes, you are, if you believe bush knew in advance - you are a truther. Just accept the title and move on.
The collapse is fine to investigate. It's suspicious, but irrelevant. And nowhere is there an "official" this is the reason "truther" statement
Some people that believe the official story think it was to start the rapture. So what?
You are pretending that the Truthers do not have a habit to insult and discredit every reporter with a decent reputation because they don't accept the pre planned demolition theory.
Maybe things are changing since they discredit themselves still insisting that Osama was dead in 2001.
I have been to too many peace rallies when things were getting pretty united and then the boys in black show up with "9/11 was an inside job, 9'11 was an inside job" and nothing said about letting it happen, no, all about the secretly planted explosives and fake airplanes and a missile, and we wonder what happened to the peace movement?
You need to read their stuff if you believe that the way the towers fell is irrelevant to them.
You are pretending that the Truthers do not have a habit to insult and discredit every reporter with a decent reputation because they don't accept the pre planned demolition theory.
I'm not pretending anything. There are idiots on all sides. So what
Maybe things are changing since they discredit themselves still insisting that Osama was dead in 2001.
Totally agree, though I do think disinformation is spread to make it look like he was dead as well as suspicious moves such as quickly dumping his body at sea. When I first heard I was like "No way, he's dead". But, I changed my mind. Which I do a lot. I think officials do things to fuck with skeptics, though obviously I can prove it. It's what I would do to make them look crazy!
""I have been to too many peace rallies when things were getting pretty united and then the boys in black show up with "9/11 was an inside job, 9'11 was an inside job" and nothing said about letting it happen, no, all about the secretly planted explosives and fake airplanes and a missile, and we wonder what happened to the peace movement?""
Yup, they hurt themselves, but is that a reason for you to discount the premise of complicity? I don't think so. You use that as a shield to save yourself from activism in that direction.
""You need to read their stuff if you believe that the way the towers fell is irrelevant to them.""
I completely understand many of the more recognizable people push that as central. I don't know what to say. It's an interesting concept but not the central thesis. It also opens up things to a wide variety of idiotic speculations, like no planes and such.
one of the better compilations of "evidence"
http://www.oilempire.us/911.html
So basically, you want to distance your self for what YOU perceive to be the aggregate theory. Not that you don't think there was complicity. And because you don't like what you perceive as the "official" "troofer" stance, you will not entertain any possibility that there was complicity. Sounds like you are just making internal rationalizations for what ever reason not to emotionally go there. Pretty lame actually that you spend all your time criticizing portions of movement due to there flaws when there premise is most likely correct. You can be correct and not accurate a lot of the time. There was a cover up and complicity. You need to deal with that on an emotional level instead of arguing strawmen.
You are sounding lame when you should say something relevant to the article if you can't make up your mind on the Demolition Theory.
Why should I have to make up my mind about demolition theory? That makes no sense what so ever. It's really not something you can definitively know nor is it necessary to show evidence towards complicity. Probability wise I would lean in the direction of demolition but, so what? It's not hard to come up with a semi-plausible scientific explanation for either theory. That just the way complex, chaotic events like that can play out. Endlessly discussing technical minutia takes you eyes away from the bigger picture, though.
On a probability scale in regards to complicity I would put it as highly probably due to a myriad of reasons.
Still, A victim was shot(hijacked planes into buildings) and people want to argue about whether he was poisoned as well(demolition). What's much more compelling is how the perpetrators got the gun, who turned security system was off and sent the police on a wild goose chase as well has knew the killer was coming. Also who benefits and what it means in the grand scheme of things. The "why" is more interesting and poignant. The empire is falling and allowing 911 to happen was a desperation move to what was deemed as necessary, for survival.
What is more interesting is how everything is blowing up in plans for maintaining hegemony. Which kind of ties into what the article is about, a rouge empire on it's death bed making all the wrong moves and it's complete moral decay.
Well, you have helped explain why Chomsky and most respected writers do not buy the truther package and why they are attacked for not buying it.
What, are they incapable of research themselves? Surely, they have a little more intellectual fire power than to listen to Alex Jones as some sort of "official truther message" then just shut it off. They, like you, are using idiots as an excuse not to probe further when you know better. Kind of a shield for not going there and finding something you don't want to see. Because you are ruined if you bring it up, relegated to the likes ofalien conspirists and holocaust deniers. Try Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon" spliced with Peter Lance's "Triple Cross"(which was written in a non-conspiracy manner but clearly demonstrates the FBI's internal knowledge of the 911 plot as early as 96) As an aside, "Triple Cross" was about ali mohammed who was a former Egyptian commando turned army intelligence and CIA in the early 80s. He was OBLs first trainer. He was arrested for the african Embassy bombings in 98, plead guilty, then disappeared. As of 2007 was supposedly working with the CIA again to "reduce his sentence". That guy is key.
Motive(PNAC rebuilding americas defenses, heck the neocons were begging clinton to invade Iraq)
Foreknowledge (put options, a dozens more)
Warnings(52 some very specific)
Squashed investigations(flight schools, etc)
War games(disabled defenses)
The standard operating procedure for airliner hijackings is NOT to scramble fighter jets - but to cooperate with the hijacker(s) in every way until the plane is on the ground. Of all the hundred or so hijackings that took place during the hijacking "craze" of the 1970's, zero were intercepted. Anyone over 50 who remembers those days - DB Cooper and all that - should know this.
American Behavioral Scientist has been a leading source of behavioral research for the academic world. .
The six papers in the February 2010 issue are devoted to the recent concept of “State Crimes Against Democracy (SCAD’s),” with emphasis on 9/11 and on how human behavior has failed to recognize its reality
One paper shows that "preexisting beliefs can interfere with people's examination of evidence for state crimes against democracy (SCADs), specifically in relation to the events of September 11, 2001, and the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq."
Indeed, "faith" can get in the way of reality.
Thanks but you waste your time speaking to those who are blind to truth ( ironic that they call themselves truthers yet reject all real truths) and use every opportunity to derail important discussions with their endless "truther" stupidities. Perhaps we should explore the need to take all these truthers and ,with all the birthers and tea partiers as well, sterilize them to protect the gene pool from further degeneration?
Just a bit of sarcastic fun, but I wish these clowns would go to their own web sites and stop polluting ours.
You pretty much add nothing of value.
Standard conversation:
"Troofer" - Hey, invasion plans for Iraq and Afghanistan were on Bushes desk before the attack
Response - Haha.... I bet you think Elvis is alive also
"Troofer" - Hey, PNAC laid out a plan that required a psychological pretext such as, in their words a "New Pearl Harbor a year earlier
Response - Haha troofer! troofer! troofer!
"Troofer" - Hey, there were multiple war game that day that simulated hijackings - at one point there were 22, with false blips inserted on radar screen according to the 911 commission report. This scrambled jets to Canada and made standard operating procedure impossible.
Response - Duh, I bet you think Obama was born in Kenya and was sent here as a manchurian candidate!
"Troofer" - What about the whistle blowers that claimed investigations into the flight schools were squashed by senior management. Or the whistle blower that worked at the Saudi Arabian embassy that claimed he was ordered to give passports to some of the hijackers
Response - haha Hey look it's bigfoot
"Troofer" - Hey, Cheney's secretive "Energy Task Force" meeting were shown to be about maps of Iraqi oil fields and other regional pipelines. This is on of the first things he commissioned when coming to office
Response - Yeah, maybe he held is meetings in area 51
ARRAYA: Thank you for your ppsts. I happen to think Doubledee and Yoho work for "the man," as Chris Rock would say. It's not a question of convincing them of what their job description won't allow them to entertain. They are here, like the handful of pro-nuke shills, or climate change deniers, merely to obfuscate, and make sure that Truth cannot be seen for what it is. When their arguments fail, they use all sorts of ad hominen attacks in an effort to slay the messenger. A few are mild-mannered and avoid these tactics. Naturally these operatives come off as the rational voices that reinforce the "adult" conversation, i.e. the official national narrative of PR-sponsored story-lines that far too many Americans consume along with their faux food fillers.
One of my favorite posters was banned because he tirelessly stood up for Truth, meanwhile the counterfeits are still here.
Hey, thanks Siouxrose
911 is like a malignant tumor in our collective psyche that we refuse to treat. Every time it comes up in the news, it's like pouring gasoline on a fire.
With global economic trajectories, peak oil, the complete metastization of criminality of the political structure and other marco forces - reality is going to hit everybody over the fucking head if you are under 60. There really is no avoiding it any longer.
After a two year history of my posts here I might expect better of you Rose. This post of yours is such garbage especially when taken in the light of my history here. You must be having a rather bad day I guess.
How disappointing of you. With no solid evidence whatsoever you attempt to tar me with such a brush. Why, because I expect rationale and reasonable debate from people and not ridiculously stupid wild eyed speculations that cannot be proven and that every reasonable and sane human stays far away from?
I might remind you that this entire piece of shit derailing of this thread stemmed from one asshole who took a single sentence in the article and expanded it to run off track screaming silliness. That Chomsky piece has much value within it yet you join yourself with monkeys who scream in their cages and throw offal around because Chomsky refuses to join a stupid conspiracy theory . I guess my opinion of you was inflated at best. So sad really.
Do you, every time someone has an opposing opinion, hurl defamation and speculations about motive? Is every person whop offers an opinion that differs from yours a government agent? Why on earth do you make yourself out such a damn fool?
Of course, things "can't be proven" because they were not investigated and will never go to trial. Being "proven" needs to go in front of a jury. But what can be deduced is probability of being a suspect or accomplice, as the case may be. Which you IRRATIONALLY won't even entertain.
So, since it will never be investigated, you need to be investigator, judge and jury.. The question you need to ask yourself, is why you feel the need to play defense attorney for proven pathological liars, manipulators and murders(all 100% proven to one extent or another).
The one thing that is perfectly sane is finding massive holes in the official story and enough circumstantial evidence to produce reasonable doubt of innocence of complicity. If you can't see that, then you are not rational.
As far as I know, AQs involvement has not been proven BY YOUR VERY OWN STANDARDs. It's all "wild-eyed speculation" with "no solid evidence". So by your very own standards you should be as critical as the official version as skeptics.
Of course, I think they were involved, with ample help to ensure the plot was achieved with maximum emotional impact. Turns out people in a shocked state are easy to manipulate. Naomi Klein goes over this pretty well in "Shock Doctrine"
Richard Falk, professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University and UN human rights lawyer, just came out a few months ago and became a skeptic. It's hard not to when there are so many contradictions and seemingly endless string of suspicious coincidences.
This needs saying:
We ( some of us anyway) are engaged in a desperate battle against the course of our ship of state. In order to win this battle short of violence we need to engage the masses in our struggle, we need to educate, enlighten, combat the propaganda from the established order. In short we need to gain many allies, thus winning at the ballot box..
The majority of "truther" posts are ludicrous, filled with silliness and perhaps even mental instability. At the least ,they are offputting, at most they do what Rose, in a fit of pique perhaps, accused me of doing, working to maintain the status quo. Instead of inclusiveness, truther politics remains elitist and separatist. Thus it is the truther who should be on the receiving end of Rose's inane criticism of those who fight to win a majority and not to remain aloof and stupid.
This thread is a perfect example of such, in fact. An article that contains so much of value is cheapened by the few , taken over by vitriol against all who choose to condemn a position that wins no converts, that, in fact, has the opposite result, driving away potential allies. It is oh so easy to sit ones fat ass in front of a computer and pontificate and systematically vilify all who differ in the slightest way from their own position. The fact remains that, even if what they state as truth is such, it doesnt matter in the least. That may sound radical, I see it as sad actually.
Nevertheless one must decide to be a part of the solution or remain a part of the problem.
Brilliant, Arraya!
Reminds me of the last round of Democratic primary debates. When they got to Kucinich, they ignored his fundamental political alternatives and only asked him about alien spaceships.
The only skills regressives have is in adjusting the focus. They're pretty crude at that too, but massive megaphones, drowning out all serious questions, make a big difference.
The failure of the two fighter wings at Langley AFB, to react after the second tower was hit, should be a major question area, but all I can find is a few softballs interviewers asked a few spinmeisters.
None of the 19 accused appeared on the flight manifests put out by the airlines on September 12. Whether these manifests were legal documents is a moot point, but the failure of journalists to probe this issue deeper is a blot on the whole profession.
People who swallow the basic government line on 9/11 are the true conspiracy nuts.
Edwards air force base was the larger question. This is based directly in Washington DC and is tasked with protecting the Capitol from attacks from the air.
The fighters did not launch after the first two world towers hit and they did not launch when the third airliner enroute to the the Capitol.
Due some great coincidence the Website for that airbase suffered technical difficulties and when the site came up it claimed there no fighters stationed at Edwards.
People on the internet had cache copies of the site prior to its website going down and these copies indicated that there were two fighter wings at the base and claimed that two jet aircraft were always fueled and ready and that pilots on 24 hour standby wherein these jets could be launched with 10 minutes notice.
There were far too many of these "Coincidences" that happened on 9/11 to be plausible in the official government version of events.
(The partly burned passport found in the rubble of the towers with the picture of one of the alleged hi-jackers is beyond the laws of probability )
Like you concluded only a NUT would believe the Government version of events and that there are so many competing theories out there is not because those questioning the version of events are somehow "crackpots" it is because the Government lied as to what happened and the media went along with it.
"Your" website, doubledee? Why so proprietary?
It's the fact that the majority of CD commenters go far beyond the timid criticisms found in the predominantly "liberal" articles posted here that makes the site interesting.
You, on the other hand, should probably go back to TIME magazine.
And how DO you explain Building 7, anyway?
I guess if Osama Bin Laden could remain alive after he'd already died, he must also have had powers of mind over matter.
CLOVIS: Somewhere in the background, if you listen closely enough, you'll hear Janet Jackson singing "Control." (Perhaps that will answer your question.)
Where do you find my "proprietary" comment. If you have nothing to contribute to a conversation perhaps you might simply remain at the children's table.
Asking that wild eyed and elitist assholes post in their own forum is not the same thing as claiming a proprietary interest in this one, but then, if you actually had a brain this wouldnt need descriptors.
Doubledee, you're either not a native English speaker, or you write very poorly. Or both. Go study for a few years, and then we can talk. Meanwhile don't forget to pick up your disinformation check.
Your own judgments brand you as the imbecile here. You sought to write a post that defamed me, not for the real reason; that I reject your stupid truther crap, and for reasons I took great pains to note above, but for a childishly stupid pointless point.
Who the fuck are you to tell anyone to go away! You are one giant jackwagon, and nothing of greater value.
Please do not waste your time attempting to speak to the conspiracy theorist. They have a rock solid wall betweem themselves and reality , a wall that cannot be shattered by any amount of facts or logical debate. I have never heard Mr. Chomsky speak to said conspiracy so I cannot know for certain why he does not. But, as he is a supremely logical and intelligent man I suspect he stays as far away from the nut jobs as any rational being should.
Don't poke the monkeys in their cages. Just sidestep the monkey shit they leave on the forum floor.
Good to see you around, VP, but you've caught me out here.
I'm actually not much of a drinker, much less a connoisseur of beverages like tequila.
I have participated in a couple of "tequila parties" during my misspent tweens, and wouldn't turn down a glass in a social situation. But I'm much more of a metaphorholic than an alcoholic. ;)
i am a big fan of of chomsky - full disclosure
but i disagree with him on this
bin laden was dead in 2001 from kidney disease
i hope folks can begin to see the psyop at work: obummer has low approval ratings and his birth certificate, or absence of it, was choking the life out of him. his administration is the biggest wipeout in history with his ineffectiveness as president becoming more obvious by the day
he is so clearly out of his league
what to do
first get the nazi fascist trump to pretend he might run for the job and then demand his birth certificate, bringing it forward as a manageable issue
trump is a fool and was never going to run - in fact he is even crazier than wacky ross perot
then obummer pulls out what he said all along her never had - a birth certificate
wow
but it is photoshopped with 8 layers in composite. download it from the gov website and right click and choose open with photoshop and you will see the layers in the layers pallette
gov docs are not photoshopped folks
then to follow up we get the bin laden psyop
the assassination of the biggest enemy in the world (sic) obl in his "million dollar compound" the operation center
again wow
but the compound looks like an abandoned homeless shelter with no television hook up, no phone service and no internet
then we get the video of some hapless bastard looking at obl footage on what appears to be a 40 year old 10 inch black and white tv with rabbit ears taped to the wall
and now we have a million documents - including porn - that will be the basis of ongoing never ending revelations into the next century
like cindy sheehan said on her blog - anyone who believes that is stupid
sorry professor
btw: pakistani tv interviewed the neighbors of the alleged obl and they said there were three choppers that appeared that night of which only one landed. when that chopper took off it blew up and there were body parts all over the neighborhood
so it looks the like the government took out the seal team that did land as part of the psyop - no witnesses please
lastly: the fbi have stated repeatedly that obl had nothing to do with 9/11. he was on the most wanted list for crimes occuring in the 1990's
but in amerika the sheeple, who are being led like lambs right into ww3, think that hey at least if we killed someone...well...we killed someone