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Final Thoughts on the Death of OBL
Last week, President Obama fulfilled a campaign promise and killed Osama bin Laden. Well he didn't actually do the killing himself. It was carried out by a very brave and excellent team of Navy SEALs. Not only does Mr. Obama have the overwhelming support of the country, I think there are millions who gladly wish it could have been their finger on the gun that took out bin Laden.
When I heard the news a week ago Sunday, I immediately felt great. I felt relief. I thought of those who lost a loved one on 9/11. And I was glad we finally had a President who got something done. This is what I had to say on Twitter and elsewhere on the internet in that first hour or two:
I want to point out that Barack Obama took two years to do what Bush couldn't do in over seven. That's the difference between STUPID in charge and SMART in charge. STUPID pursues two reckless wars, lets OBL escape from Tora Bora, keeps looking for him in caves and invades the wrong country. He bankrupts us to the tune of $1.2 trillion for the Iraq War (it will eventually actually be over $3 trillion), and worse, he cost us the lives of almost 5,000 of our troops, not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan – and, after all that, he STILL couldn't bring the perp to justice. In fact, in 2005, Bush closed down the CIA station that was devoted to looking for bin Laden! What does SMART do? He sends in a small elite strike force, no troops are killed, and the perpetrator is stopped for good.
I was thrilled that the Osama bin Laden era was over. There was now an end to the madness.
Being near Ground Zero that night, I decided to head over there and join with others who saw this event as a chance to have some closure. On 9/11, Bill Weems, a good and decent man I knew and worked with (we had just recently completed a shoot together in Boston), was on the plane that was flown into the Twin Towers. I dedicated 'Fahrenheit 9/11,' in part, to him.
But before leaving to go to the former World Trade Center site, I turned on the TV, and what I saw down at Ground Zero was not quiet relief and gratification that the culprit had been caught. Rather, I witnessed a frat boy-style party going on, complete with the shaking and spraying of champagne bottles over the crowd. I can completely understand people wanting to celebrate – like I said, I, too, was happy – but something didn't feel right. It's one thing to be happy that a criminal has been captured and dealt with. It's another thing to throw a kegger celebrating his death at the site where the remains of his victims are still occasionally found. Is that who we are? Is that what Jesus would do? Is that what Jefferson would do? I was reminded of the tale told to me as a kid, of God's angels singing with glee as the Red Sea came crashing back down on the Egyptians chasing the Israelites, drowning all of them. God rebuked them, saying, "The work of My hands is drowning in that sea – and you want to friggin' sing?" (or something like that).
I remember my parents telling me how, on the day it was announced that Hitler was dead, there was no rejoicing in the streets, just private relief and satisfaction. The real celebration came six days later at the announcement that the war in Europe was over. THAT'S what the people wanted to hear – not just the demise of one evil madman, but the end to all the killing.
When the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, people didn't pour into the streets to whoop it up. Yes, people were happy that it might help end the war, but there was not a public display of "Yippee! A hundred thousand Japs have been fried!" If they had done that, well, who could have blamed them after so many tens of thousands of their sons and fathers had been lost in the war (including my uncle, a paratrooper, killed by a sniper near Manila). But the sailor kissing the girl in Times Square was on August 14th, 1945, when the Japanese surrendered and the war was officially over. That's when America went crazy with joy – not over a killing, but over an announcement of peace.
We are a different people now, aren't we? Well, sorta. There was no bloodlust euphoria on the day Timothy McVeigh was executed. We were silent. The families of the Oklahoma City dead were silent, relieved. What is the difference between McVeigh and bin Laden, other than the number they slaughtered? I wonder. I think we know the answer.
Though bin Laden is dead, we are told that Orwell's Permanent War – the "War on Terror" – must continue! Not allowed to have our V-J day and run into Times Square with exhilaration! No, there could be terrorists there. So all we're left with is to cheer the death of one evil man, and that is supposed to make us feel powerful and good. There can be no celebration for the end of the Afghanistan War because the war isn't ending. The war must continue! Even though our own CIA tells us there are no more than a few dozen al Qaeda left in Afghanistan. We still have 100,000 troops there fighting a few dozen crazies? We say we're fighting the Taliban, too, but the Taliban are Afghan citizens, not an invading force, and, for better or worse, they seem to enjoy the support of many of the common people throughout Afghanistan. (If you don't believe that, ask any soldier who has served there and seen it. Every day is like 'Apocalypse Now.' Poppies, anyone?)
Meanwhile, we – me, included – get lost in the weeds of how this one madman was killed. The official story from the Pentagon changedfour times in the first four days! It went from OBL firing on the troops with one hand and using his wife as a human shield with the other, to, by the fourth day, not single person in the main house, including bin Laden, being armed when killed. Instantly, this created a lot of suspicion about what really happened, which itself was a distraction.
Here's my take: I know a number of Navy SEALs. In fact (and this is something I don't like to talk about publicly, for all the obvious reasons), I hire only ex-SEALs and ex-Special Forces guys to handle my own security (I'll let you pause a moment to appreciate that irony). These SEALs are trained to follow orders. I don't know what their orders were that night in Abbottabad, but it certainly looks like a job (and this is backed up in a piece in the Atlantic) where they were told to not bring bin Laden back alive. The SEALs are pros at what they do and they instantly took out every adult male (every potential threat) within a few minutes – but they also took care to not harm a single one of the nine children who were present. Pretty amazing. This wasn't some Rambo-style operation where they just went in guns blazing, spraying bullets. They acted swiftly and with expert precision. I'm telling you, these guys are so smart and so lethal, they could take you out with a piece of dental floss. (And in fact, one of my ex-SEAL guys showed me how to do that one night. Whoa.)
In a perfect world (yes, I would like to reside there someday, or at least next door to it, in Slightly Imperfect World), I would like the evildoers to be forced to stand trial in front of that world. I know a lot of people see no need for a trial for these bad guys (just hang 'em from the nearest tree!), and think trials are for sissies. "They're guilty, off with their heads!" Well, you see, that is the exact description of the Taliban/al Qaeda/Nazi justice system. I don't like their system. I like ours. And I don't want to be like them. In fact, the reason I like a good trial is that I like to show these bastards this is how it's done in a free country that believes in civilized justice. It's good for the rest of the world to see that, too. Sets a good example.
The other thing a trial does is, it establishes a very public and permanent historic record of the crimes against humanity. This is why we put the Nazis on trial in Nuremberg. We didn't do it for them. We did it for ourselves and for our grandchildren so that they would never forget these horrors and how they were committed. And we did it for the German people so they could see the evidence of what their elected leaders had done. Very helpful. Very necessary. Very powerful.
And for those who wanted blood back then – well, the majority of the Nazis all hanged in the end. So, it doesn't mean the bad guys get away – they still swing from the highest tree.
My own spiritual beliefs do not allow for capital punishment, and I was raised in the state (Michigan) that in the 1840s was the first government in the English-speaking world to outlaw it. So, I'm just not inclined that way. I don't believe in "an eye for an eye." I know the old book said that, but I like its sequel better (a rare case in which the sequel – like Godfather II, Star Trek II, Terminator II – is better than the original). If you don't believe the way I believe (it's also the official position of the Catholic Church, for whatever that's worth these days), then that's your right, and I understand.
Perhaps there was no way to bring him back alive – I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in that dark house trying to make that snap decision. But if the execution was ordered in advance, then I say we should be told that now, and we can like it or not like it.
For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?
Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda – and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status – they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.
We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.
Maybe you knew us so well because you were once one of our mercenaries, funded and armed by us via our friends in Pakistan to fight the other Evil Empire in the last battle of the Cold War. Only, when the killing stopped, the trained killer, our "Frankenstein," couldn't. The monster, you, would soon turn on us.
If we really want to send bin Laden not just to his death, but also to his defeat, may I suggest that we reverse all of that right now. End the wars, bring the troops home, make the rich pay for this mess, and restore our privacy and due process rights that used to distinguish us from any other country. Right now, our democracy looks like Singapore and our economy has gone desperately Greek.
I know it will be hard to turn the clock back to before 9/11 when all we had to worry about were candidates stealing elections. A multi-billion dollar industry has grown up around "homeland security" and the terror wars. These war profiteers will not want to give up their booty so easily. They will want to keep us in fear so they can keep raking it in. We will have to stop them. But first we must stop believing them.
Hideki Tojo killed my uncle and millions of Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and a hundred thousand other Americans. He was the head of Japan, the Emperor's henchman, the man who was the architect of Pearl Harbor. When the American soldiers went to arrest him, he tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest. The soldiers immediately worked on stopping his bleeding and rushed him to an army hospital where he was saved by our army doctors. He then had his day in court. It was a powerful exercise for the world to see. And on December 23, 1948, after he was found guilty, we hanged him. A killer of millions was forced to stand trial. A killer of 4,000 (counting the African embassies and USS Cole bombings) got double-tapped in his pajamas. Assuming it was possible to take him alive, I think his victims, the future, and the restoration of the American Way deserved better. That's all I'm saying.
Good riddance Osama.
Come back to your ways, my good ol' USA.
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102 Comments so far
Show Allmichael moore is getting on my last nerve cell
he is a gatekeeper for amerika the imperial and his schtick is tin gruel
of course he is pumping the obl murder mystery for all he is worth somehow equating it the death of his uncle bernie 65 years ago, killed by tojo, quite a leap fella
he says pres obummer ran on the platform of killing obl - huh - i tought he ran on hope and change
so - he hoped to murder obl and then hoped that would change something....
hmmmmmmmm...
the dinosaur media - the fawning corporate one - are the only ones pumping the navy seal, killed obl while he hid behind his wife, who didn't fire back, who didn't hide behind his wife and did fire back while the whole thing was watched by the lizards in the war room but ok it wasn't watched by the lizards in the war room because the video link went down during the heat of the mission. the mansion was worth 1 million bucks but was sold two years ago for 48 grand - i guess obl did some major renos or maybe its just a hot housing market
no pictures and a body dumped in the sea - apparently you can make this shit up
and the sheeple who fell for 9/11, the lies about obl, the lies about wmd, now fall hook line and sinker for another bullshit story that has been changed so much only a fool would hold the faith with it
enter mikey moore - schlub and fool both
gatekeeper
here's a story today from drudge where the wh has agreed to stop putting out fake shit
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_photographers
and i for one believe them this time and i think mikey is with me too
like cindy sheehan said on her blog last week - anyone who believes in this psyop is "stupid" which is why its gone over so well in amerika - we got lots of stupid
begs the question: what in the hell would the sheeple not believe, how lousy does a story have to be to be rejected by the medicated masses
obl died in 2001
since then he has been killed by us around 8 more times
as wired news says - he is the busiest corpse in show business, not counting ashton kushner of course
"..the busiest corpse in show business, not counting ashton kushner of course."
Hilarious, med.
OBL was seen yesterday in the Elm & Pearl nightclub in Dallas,TX
I'm not sure we should compare Obama's attitude to OBL with that of GWBush....Bush said is as many words he wasn't really very interested in OBL at one point....I'm sure to play down his lack of success in the chase as it were. However be all that as it may I really DON'T think it WAS all that smart to kill OBL....(and I'm still not convinced it happened the way we have been told, retold and told twice again). What an absolute imtelligence gift to know EXACTLY where this 'mastermind' is and then have the ability to track ANYONE entering or leaving the house using the myriad of surveillance techniques at one's disposal these days. Not very smart for another reason also....OBL was one of the 'knowns' as Rummy used to say .....OBL was an 'enemy' whose thought processes were somewhat predictable but now we wait for the new 'enemy leader' to emerge and then 'get to know'. So Mr Moore you have done some great work,,,,thanks you for Sicko etc but I fear Obama may not be deserving of praise in this specific endeavor ......and speaking of Sicko I'm reminded of many, many promises I fear our President cannot be relied upon to keep.
Basically a good article by Michael Moore where he lays out the reasons why he had undergone an epiphany regarding the death of the alleged Osama bin Laden. However, he does seem to regard the U.S. Special Forces and Navy SEALS in very high regard as he describes them as being brave and simply following the orders that they are given. Given the fact that Moore himself acknowledges that the SEALS shot an unarmed man it then makes Moore's claim that the SEALS are "brave" ring quite hollow.
I would also add that it would have been much more admirable if a few of those allegedly brave SEALS had actually decided to question the orders that they were given instead of shooting an unarmed man. But the military realizes that the last thing that the robots [i.e. the soldiers] ever do is to refuse the orders that they are given.
"The mass of men serves the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army and the militia, janitors, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt." -Henry David Thoreau [1817-1862], American author and philosopher
What can one say of this. You can't keep Michael down. As often as one might say that he's a stooge for the Democratic Party or that he's naive, they must admit that he's open and honest and true to his social ideals.
So let the sniping begin.
The problem I have with Michael Moore is that his pieces are always so simple-minded, as if he is explaining something to a small child. He thinks people don't notice when his logic doesn't add up, or is contradictory. Sorry Mike, your subservience to the Democratic Party is all too obvious.
Michael Moore reminds us that mass killer Tojo was put on trial. So too was Eichman put on trial by the Israelis. So too were the Nazis put on trial at Nuremberg. IF OSB was unarmed and not a threat shouldn't he have been captured and put on trial as was Tojo, Eichman and the Nazis? Do we want to establish extra_judicial killing in international law? Can what was done to another be legally done to us?
Your question: "Can what was done to another be legally done to us?"
The short answer is yes. Barry has already proclaimed that it is legal for him to order the murder of Amerikan citizens. W. Bush and Barry both agree that habeas corpus is suspended at the president's whim. Warrantless wiretaps, sneak and peek searches have demolished the Fourth Amendment. Police bust heads and make arrests of peaceful protesters while the ruling elite ignore their brutality. So, in summary, the government and Mr. Hope and Change have succeeded in destroying what remained of democracy in the former United States of America.
'...while the ruling elite ignore their brutality.'
Excellent post but I would edit the above to say 'a majority of the American people ignore their brutality,' which is the real beauty of having a commie pinko populist democratic in office...the people will just buy whatever he's selling.
Diana--really? "commie pinko populist democratic"? You poor confused illiterate American. Do you really know what each of those adjectives stand for (do you even know what an adjective is?). It's unthinking robots like this, who string together contradictory terms without knowing what they even stand for because maybe they heard their fathers or big brothers say them, that make America dumb and gullible.
For heaven's sake, I was being sarcastic, aping the tea-partiers' propaganda at the behest of the oligarchy. The contradictions and lies inherent in the corporate propaganda is what I was commenting on...
"Can what was done to another be legally done to us?"
Yes, it can. Think about that as you lay bed tonight.
Here is my final thought on Moore. This will be the last time I waste my valuable time reading his Dem/Obama apologetic.
Jill ~ "The people of the US deserve to hear from actual liberals who value life, the truth, courage and an unwavering commitment to justice."
Yes. But where are they, the actual liberals who value life......etc. (apart from many erudite commenters on CD who are limited to singing to the choir)?
Is there nobody with name recognition who will step up and say, in public, the same things we read here in comment day after day? CD seems to be the only small corner of sanity in an increasingly insane nation.
Jill
I think that you may have left out perhaps the best leftist web site that one can find on the Internet and that would be Empire Burlesque by Chris Floyd. It is truly baffling why Common Dreams has, to the best of my knowledge, never published any articles from Empire Burlesque.
Thank you Jill, and others, for further reading ideas. I'll follow them with interest.
Still, though, I'm left with the feeling they will all simply be singing to the choir. Nothing ever moves on from that situation. That's why I suspect that a someone, or several someones, recognised by others from outside "our choir" is/are truly needed to speak out, for there to be a chance of moving on from how things are, and have been for months, years - decades?
thanks so much for the above link and introducing me to this great man, Stephane Hessel. I've been outraged/angry for quite sometime now, but don't know how to channel that. I live in a region where everybody thinks they are the choir, so please don't preach. but the problem is the choir isn't singing. We're way too comfortable in our ultra green humboldt.
I depend on the posters here on CD to keep me sane, along with my daughter and x-hubby and those friends who get it. And Jill and all of you thoughtful posters, the choir here on CD is probably bigger than posters think. I hardly ever post but read the discourse almost daily, for hours, participating in the exchange of ideas by sharing what I come away with in my social interactions. Thanks guys!
"Is there nobody with name recognition who will step up and say, in public, the same things we read here in comment day after day? "
The sad truth is, Jill, there is nobody, because if someone did, the MSM and its controllers would do all in their power to see that he would, in the future, have exactly the same name recognition with the general public as your favorite stray cat.
Right on, port lookout; and if one ever did speak out and find traction in the citizenry, the brave seals and other thugs would ventillate his skull much the same as they have done with so many.
"He is idealizing SEALs, Obama and murder."
In a sense, Moore is right about the seals. They are the very best murderers and thugs America can produce.
Final Thoughts on the Death of American Decency
Every four years
we see them arrive.
They test market lies,
fine tune the connive.
And every four, too,
the dem-crats, the "blue,"
their brains go to mush,
and their courage goes, too.
The money's been heisted
from bottom to top
and the wars have expanded
hope for peace, it's a flop.
The earth she complains
of abuse and excess,
while our crimes just go on,
my gosh, it's a mess!
Mike is a victim
of this dem-cat disease.
He's unable to think,
knows not what he sees.
It's up to us now,
we're the only ones left.
to end all the wars,
to stop all the theft.
It's time to buck up,
it's time to arise.
Afore all is lost
it's the time to arise.
Truth so beautifully told.
It is the time to Arise, nice rhymes Pinko!
I don't understand why Michael Moore repeats the fiction that OBL was responsible for 9/11. I agree with Noam Chomsky that OBL "admitting" to being behind 9/11 would be like Michael Moore "admitting" to winning the Boston Marathon. OBL found it to be a desirable act so he was happy to take credit for it.
The stand down of the U.S. air defenses with no military person being disciplined for it is one example of the events of 9/11 OBL could not possibly have been responsible for. The behavior of the buildings in defiance of the laws of physics if there were no explosives planted in advance is another example of something OBL could not have done. MM seems to be accepting the official story of 9/11 now, unquestioningly. I thought Michael Moore was smarter than that.
There are many examples of 9=11 to be other than what the official story tells us it is. I'm surprised at Michael Moore buying it. Well not really, my good friends don't want to hear the 'conspiracy' theories surrounding 9-11. It is too much to grapple with. When I point out that the 'jet' that hit the pentagon could've been seen by cameras out side the Pentagon but for some reason those frames are missing from the video tapes and there was not a single piece of jet recovered from the Pentagon exterior causes me to think about this. My belief it was a missile and that the trade center was blown up by thermite explosives. Just my opinion after hearing both sides of the story.
Also OBL gave an interview denying his role in 9-11, not that I believe this guy either but for the record:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24697
If you hadn't said it I would of!
Now we will never know, the answer is swimming with the fishes... I think...
Yep! The best piece of intelligence they HAD; and they had orders to silence the source.
This article is rotten tripe washed down with poisoned Kool-Aid. I guess (with great regret) that the glare of the spotlight has finally blinded Mike to the point where he takes manufactured images for real ones.
He once asked publicly why all the Pentagon videocameras and tapes were disappeared minutes after the Pentagon strike on 9/11.
What were you thinking, Mike?
The same should go for the putative OBL hit, Mike. Where's the body? Why did they fly those eight hundred miles to dump it into the sea? Kind of like those Pentagon cameras, don't you think? Kind of like absconding illegally with the thousands of tons of WTC debris and having it destroyed.
There's a pattern here, Mike. It's called destruction of evidence. Removal of the corpus delicti. And fabrication of evidence. And tampering.
We know the motive for these crimes. If you contribute to the suppression of more evidence, to the thwarting of the efforts of thousands to get to the bottom of these crimes, you become part of the problem, Mike. You help the continuation of mass murder and worldwide oppression.
Say it aint so, Mike. Say it aint so.
Scathing rebuttal Clovis, and right on. Come on, Michael, a response???
Truly one of the most revolting things I've ever read on CD. The reactions to the supposed killing of Osama Bin Laden by "progressives" like Bill Maher, Jon Stewart and Michael Moore lay bare the "bankruptcy of the liberal class".
Osama as Adolf Hitler? Um, no. Here's what Bin Laden said on September 28, 2001 (translated into English by the BBC World Monitoring Service and made public on September 29, 2001) --
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act....The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system"
Multiple news reports had Osama Bin Goldstein dying shortly thereafter -- which would certainly make sense considering his medical condition. Later tapes appear badly doctored or of someone much younger than Bin Laden. Either that or he discovered the fountain of youth.
Bin Laden did not announce 2.3 trillion missing from the Pentagon on 9/10; Bin Laden did not organize war games on the day of 911 "simulating" hijacked airliners crashing into buildings; Bin laden did not implode Building 7.
Of far greater resemblance to Adolph Hitler is General Wesley Clark, whom Mr. Moore endorsed for President.
In 1999 during the NATO assault on Serbia, Russian forces assumed control of the Pristina airfield in Kosovo. The Russians believed they were working in concert with NATO in a peace-making effort, and raised their own flag.
It was at this point that General Wesley Clark ordered James Blunt to “overpower” the Russians using force.
Blunt, now a pop singer best known for the song “You’re beautiful”, was then in command of a unit of British soldiers at the head of NATO’s 300,000 troops. According to Blunt, “words like destroy came over the radio”.
Blunt refused Clark’s order and was backed up by the then head of Britain's armed forces, General Mike Jackson. Said Jackson: "I'm not going to have my soldiers be responsible for starting World War 3”.
Obama himself is also a war criminal of a caliber that Osama could never dream of. About the only thing we know about Osama is that was a religious fanatic who used to work for the CIA and may have played a part in the bombing of the USS Cole -- a military target. Obama kills women and children daily in multiple countries and makes jokes about it on television. He supports torture. Based on dollars he is the biggest pro war president in the post WWII era.
Channeling Katie Couric (Navy Seals rock!), Moore's nauseating paeans to the merc's who provide his security while he keeps the rabble at bay at the drive-though window and who allegedly killed some guy in his pajamas is the icing on the cake.
What a despicable phony.
"Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
--Voltaire
Trylon
Good post, Durrutix
This guy just another Big Fat Idiot...the Repubs have theirs in Rush and Dems have theirs in Moore. By his thinking, it depends on the side you are on, there is no consideration for human values, constitution, law, ethics, or morality. I regret so much that I ever watched this idiots movies before...never again!
One of the few arguments I.ve had with my wife is about whether it was better to shoot bin Lauden than bring him to trail. "Justice was done--justice was done.' she shouts, (and this is one of the few times that she is so vehement.) I take the more nuanced view that Justice is a process best played out in a public forum-- but no need to go into that here. What I want to understand is the force of my wife's conviction--here is my attempt at it:
What bin Lauden did to us was an insult and a profound act of disrespect to us. Blowing his brains out is an appropriate response to that insult and will serve as an act of deterrence to anyone else thinking of doing something similar to us. It is in fact a more effective act of deterrence than any trial could ever be because it snarls a warning about consequences.
Framing it this way, rather than dwelling on the more basic emotion of how sweet vengeance is at least allows us to discuss what is the most effective way to discredit and deter. I think a trial would be a better way because it upholds a broader and more legitimate moral principle than "mess with me--I'll mess with you." it is the principle is that the killing of innocents is always wrong, no matter what the grievance is and will never persuade third parties of the moral rightness of any cause. This seems to be such a minority viewpoint in US society today.
Of course I was in a minoity when I dissaproved of going to ar in Iraq where the Bally's mens locker room comment was, "If it's not Sadaam it's close enough." What seems to be the common thread in both sentiments is that the only way other people not as civilized or decent as we are will respect us is by show of force, that upholding broader moral principles or leading by example or respecting processes of law are weak in comparison. If the military might of this country is all that we are left with believing in I think this marks not only the beginning of the end of our empire, which could be a good thing, I think it marks the beginning of the end of our nation.
Tammons: "One of the few arguments I.ve had with my wife is about whether it was better to shoot bin Lauden than bring him to trail."
Funny. One of the few arguments I've had with my wife is about whether the moon is made of green cheese or white Camembert.
You seem to be under the impression that there is some sort of evidence linking Bin Laden to 911. The FBI does not admit as much. Perhaps you should consider contacting them with you new evidence? Just a thought.
Good point and a trial would certainly highlight just what role bin Lauden had in 9/11.
That's exactly what I was going to post. Why is 99.99 percent of the US population convinced that bin Laden was guilty when we haven't been offered even a shred of evidence to prove it. Are there no critical thinkers left?
911 was the brain child of Osama. (or not) Obama brought the "guilty" guy down. (or not) The Navy SEALS just killed some people. (or not) We know who they were. (or not) They dumped a body overboard. (or not) Our government was holed up in a room watching the whole thing go down. (or not)
God. I'm really beginning to hate this place I call home.
Can you spell: SELL-OUT?
What a groveling sycophant. After reading this revolting essay, one would never guess Moore actually produced Fahrenheit 911.
"Brave Navy SEALS"??? So, far all we have is this: no pictures, no body, changing stories almost every hour.
Obama has proved himself to be a train wreck to America-supporting torture, no end in sight on the wars in AfPak, bombing Libya without congressional debate or approval, total whitewash on the BP disaster, conveniently traveling to Brazil, while Fukushima melts down, and the list goes on.
Agreed solarhamster. I can't stand him.
Amy Goodman showed him speaking a couple days ago in nyc. I couldn't watch it. He had nothing to say and kept stammering. I think has become more and more irrelevant. And i have also had a few ex navy seals as clients. Guys who couldn't hack the sociopathic work and went awol.
I never was a big fan of M.M., just on personality alone. But he has become offensive to me. And i thought Capitalism a Love Story was so middle of the road, that i would have walked out if i had gone to the theatre alone. It was nothing you couldn't have known from MSM.
>>And i have also had a few ex navy seals as clients. Guys who couldn't hack the sociopathic work and went awol. <<
Good for them! And good for you for helping them!
Many thanks, dkshaw. The thing that i remember the most is that each one of these guys had to go to a military psychiatrist, because they were 'breaking down' emotionally and the shrinks went to the C.O's and asked if the information was true. This was then seen as a security breach by the Seals and they were charged with giving away top secret intel, etc.
The other thing is that they each thought i would be so amazed by what our government was doing....I assured them that i was the last person who would be surprised and that i was already well aware, without knowing the details.
"President Obama fulfilled a campaign promise and killed Osama bin Laden. .. carried out by a very brave and excellent team of Navy SEALs. ..
Obama [has] the overwhelming support of the country, ..
there are millions who gladly wish it could have been their finger on the gun that took out bin Laden.
When I heard the news a week ago Sunday, I immediately felt great. I felt relief. I thought of those who lost a loved one on 9/11. And I was glad we finally had a President who got something done. "
WTF?!
It took considerable effort on my part to overcome a nauseous disgust with the opening paragraphs in order to read the rest of the article. Someone who has been a fearless muckraker in revealing corporate misdeeds and producing quality documentaries now abandons common sense and standard research methods with his emotional support of Obama, his adherence to current MIC political myths, his admiration for the military, and his loyalty to a traditional (outmoded) religious organization. How could someone fail to use the same measuring stick in all cases? Talk about cognitive dissonance! This is very disappointing.
That was my reaction as well. I am glad I read the rest of the article but it's hard to balance the opening paragraphs with his final thoughts. Mr. Moore needs to more critically edit his writings before submitting them for publication.
Moore has done a lot of good work in the past, and last year, he even seemed to be starting to get over his belief that the Democratic party still (if it ever did) defends the interests of the worker.
But, while Moore makes some valid points in the last couple paragraphs, this piece, overall, is disgusting.
If Moore is doing this out of a need to maintain a "voice of the working class", then it just goes to show how deep-in-the-marrow-powerful USAn militarism and exceptionalism is among the US working class. We will never see organizing for effective change until the demon of USAn exceptionalism can be exorcized from the working class.
yes, the demon of american exceptionalism blinds people to what is right in front of them. It's bizarre, and yes, "deep in the marrow"
camelrocker, i just posted on american exceptionalism (it's roots as far as i have discerned them) on the david sirota piece.
"I want to point out that Barack Obama took two years to do what Bush couldn't do in over seven. That's the difference between STUPID in charge and SMART in charge."
I think the jury is still out on that.
"What does SMART do? He sends in a small elite strike force, no troops are killed, and the perpetrator is stopped for good."
He officially ordered a military attack on a private residence in a sovereign country (we are not at war with and actually send financial aid to) and murdered unarmed civilians including at least one woman. Disposed of two of the bodies in a suspicious manner and flouted it. His staff can't seem to keep their stories straight and he admits this action will not lead to the end of any of our expensive foreign intrigues (wars). He then holds a victory celebration at "ground zero" and invites the "dumb" ex-president, who very wisely declines. Not really seeing any of that as "smart".
This is the new empire.
Okay, so Obama made some final decisions regarding Osama (assuming Osama was killed in that attack); but my question is what did Obama do in the 2 years vs Bush in his 7 years. Unless Obama fired the all those in the intelligence units that served during Bush's years and told the new units not to look at any prior information, he doesn't deserve so much lauding. In addition, both Obama and Bush served as presidents, but give me a break, both spent weekends golfing, not chasing Osama. It was intelligence personnel that should get the credit, and most likely it was a culmination of 9 years of effort.
Somehow, I feel I'm going to have to repeat this argument over and over before the Nov 2012 elections.