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Noam Chomsky: My Reaction to Osama bin Laden’s Death
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic.
It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”
Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.
There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.
There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.
Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”
There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.
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Show AllName one commercial or public tall building that is pre-wired with explosives and the insurance company that demanded it.
"I used to work with explosives."
and will again come the 4th of July...
VDB: PDJ, if I am not mistaken, also posts as Sabocat and ALWAYS argues the position that the government's story of 911 is "accurate." Saturnalia is playing Columbo to his post by acting naive, like it might have been Chile! Note that through their little tap dance, both reinforce the idea that anyone questioning the official story line is out of bounds.
This subject has been batted around in this forum enough times to recognize the
"established" positions of forum members. In this thread, there are a number of "new names," but you can be SURE they are the same old posters, the ones who always spent HOURS and hours in these threads under OTHER names, endlessly regurgitating their previous positions. By their elusive cover--the use of new names, it is made to seem that new people have shown up who JUST HAPPEN to hold these same points of view.
Jim Glover, like Greg R, is a person who always supports the status quo. He comes off as a reasonable voice in the forum. This stance ultimately is present to reinforce official story-lines as if they alone signify the sensible positions. Then anyone who deviates is seen as the rebel, radical, crazy, "truther," or some other damaging characterization meant to silence (or discredit) what they have to say. It may look like an "honest" difference of opinion, but I believe it's a sophisticated psy-ops maintained IN this forum.
One false meme was presented here by "Saint Just" in suggesting that "radio progressives" were going along with the official story. In a land as right wing as our own, any voice that begins to speak truth is cast as "left" or "progressive," yet the views espoused by these persons would be seen as centrist in a sane and/or balanced society.
Good posts: Clovis, Doug T (5/7, 2:58), Hugh (excellent), Ephraim (5/8 1:18 AM), Paul Revere (5/7 1:27 PM)
The "new" poster Ormond demands that Chomsky wake up. Amazing arrogance, Mister, as if this castigation allots you the moral high ground. The camouflage of this forum allows some chump to toss damaging words, as if he can touch Chomsky in terms of scholarship of accomplishments.
Some in this forum are here specifically to discredit voices of wisdom, while also using words to PUNISH persons who do not step into line... i.e. conform to the messages that our VERY expensive, completely captured media expect us to tout back. This stuff is BEYOND Orwell...
"using words to PUNISH persons"
sticks and stones, Sioux, sticks and stones.
(which is appropriate as we are on the subject of demolition...)
BTW, Saturnalia admitted his error in accepting the official nine/eleven story over on another thread.
I'm sure he will come around to seeing the sense of pre-wiring.
No, not at all. 'pre-wiring' is an idiotic idea. No one would do that.
But this thread is getting to be too long, I'll leave you to your idle speculations...
Siouxrose, you should have been here long enough to know that knowing it was coming and doing nothing to stop it and taking intel off of the Saudi connections is not the "official story".
I thought you were more intelligent than to make up that false "Official
Story" but I was wrong about you.
It is time you stopped using straw man arguments and false accusations to support more false stories.
Siouxrose,
Whenever you post about what you think others write, it is just your opinion but not the opinion of the people you misrepresent.
If you got a bitch with me, say it now.
It was not a total free fall...look at how the debris is pushed out and then like a mushroom drops below the parts that are beginning to pancake from the weight of the top coming down at close to free fall.
The way the towers were constructed the floors were supported by protruding lips on the sides so when the first top floor under the damage and main fire goes, the lips or supports of the next lower floors are no longer in there required place to support the next lower floor. That is why it is called pancaking working with the law of gravity.
Also the fire protection was under rated because to save money they used more steel and less concrete... it is the concrete that helps keep the steel from warping too fast.
You need to get beyond Loose Change and all that debunked theory and false info Truthers keep repeating.
But once bitten you don't need to find real evidence.
You are convinced and if you are trying to convince me you must have ignored all my corrections on the Truther Tales.
You guys have been making the same mistakes over and over for almost 10 years now.
By the way, Osama was killed on last May Day and his gang knows it.
Sorry, to bust your bubble but somebody has to do it.
In supplement to Hugh’s fine comments, the evidence is overwhelming that our neocons and Israel engineered and orchestrated 9/11, (completely different from “let it happen”): nanothermite straight from our military R & D, temperature of jet fuel versus much higher temperatures to melt steel, versus extraordinary temperatures to vaporize/turn to fine dust: thick steel, concrete and humans; wrong debris-- fiber, not metal at both Pentagon and Shankesville; grossly insufficient debris at both sites (3 tons versus 80 tons) and buildings in NYC (cavities, not tall piles), hole too small in DC, or 100s witnesses, photos, microscopes or videos; conclusive proof of staging—undamaged light poles blown from base on wrong course in DC—south of Citgo station (not North), forewarnings, 9/11 commission, Israelis dressed as Palestinians filming the event---high fiving each other with joy, vaults with evidence for criminal prosecution of Wall Street opened and emptied, Building 7 perfect controlled demolition with penthouse blown first, huge smoke from base of building 6 simultaneous with hit second tower, inexplicable large round holes in bldg 5 without corresponding debris, the conclusive source of the deadly anathrix—our military intelligence labs at Fort Deitrich; convenient dropping of WH story of break into all military computers and use of codes for AF One; refusal to release any of the 87 videos which would show what smaller object hit Pentagon (likely Global Hawk per considerable evidence), or the weird melting of hundreds of cars on FDR hwy from our new beam weapon. This was staged after years of planning---with murders of large AIG whistleblower meeting above plane strike—John O’Neal, former FBI superstar fired for suspecting Israel in USS Cole bombing, but hired to start as head of security on 9/11 (body found intact dead—even though he had gone mysteriously missing two days previously); Rumsfeld announces $2.3 trillion (an unimaginable number) missing on 9/10 and plane hit very spot of those records the next morning and murdered the auditors (and not another word was said about those missing funds). And more.
Jim, Even in all directions for the finer subordinate points, such as evidence that the nineteen did not die in the crashes: many were reported alive after the event; one father talked to his son by phone the day after the event but now understands his son was later murdered by Mossad; FBI does not link Osama Bin Laden to event. The five dancing Israelis who filmed, and came to film, the event were dressed like Palestinians with box cutters in their van, which makes many suspect that they were in contact with Arab "patsies" (who likely thought they were part of a drill, just like those in London on 7/07/05) to make them think that they were like them (and part of the drill). None of those Arabs were religious and did not have any characteristics of one with knowledge that they would die.
Thousands of distinguished Americans, including Generals (and our long time head of Army Intelligence), former high ranking government officials, including CIA, multiple Senators and Congressmen, are listed at patriotsquestion9/11.com and AEtruth.org (Architects and Engineers for truth). One Senator (Max Cleland) even quit 9/11 Commission in protest saying it was a sham; and the circumstances around that Commission (and the limits to information demanded by the WH) are an independent indictment. Just like the Warren Commission, a key culprit (our CIA) managed access to information and supplied confessions (without volunteering that they were the result of torture), but adamantly refused commission members access to those who confessed. There is so much.
But no proof of pre-wired demolition.
There are many people with the same name in case you didn't know.
Chomsky knows as well as most respected investigators who don't go along with Theories that don't make sense and believe without proof.
Dancing Israelis indicates they knew it was coming as well as Bush.
It does not prove prewired demolition.
But this is too advanced for Truthers who put down every widely respected writer and investigator who does not go along with the fantasy.
" Actually, steel-framed buildings cannot collapse ( via gravity alone at free-fall accelerations"
If you watch the collapse, it was slower than free fall because the debris hit the ground before the rest of the towers.
But if you recall they didn't fall on there own, an airliner smashed the hell out of the steel structure and the heat was intense... and they could not put the fires out so they were bound to fall and the fire Dept. knew it. You Truthers slander the fire dept. by implying that if they knew the towers and building 7 would fall, they must have been in on it some how.
Truthers don't know the truth.
Well it was supposed to be The Fire Chief according to Truthers, who got the order to bring down (pull it) or (Pull out) Building Seven... he could not do that by himself or would it take other firemen as well or even know there were "explosives" set up already to do that?
No, The firemen gave the order to clear the area because they knew the fire could not be put out.
Same with the 2nd tower that fell, the firemen knew it would fall because they could not put it out and your claim that they did is bull.
The firemen in the helicopters reported that beams inside the damaged and fire area were getting red hot... that is over 1000 degrees.
You won't find that in Loose Change though.
Here's over 1500 rational scientists, engineers and architects with advanced degrees and thousands of years of combined experience who say otherwise:
http://www.ae911truth.org
The hacks at the debunking websites can barely write in anything resembling a competent manner, let alone provide an historical analysis of empire, terrorism, and false flag attacks.
Just to be fair, I believe he was on your side.
You fellers are sounding pretty pathetic now that the Obama/Osama saga (there I go confusing them again) have become ghostly martyrs to the evil of WAR.
One a martyred ghost and the other who thinks that he has the right to be the judge, jury, executioner, undertaker and funeral director for a bad excuse of Endless War.
Create peace now, President Obama, and bring the soldiers home to help rebuild America's crumbling infrastructure.
Also, read Wikileaks and you will finally get some truth.
Rebuilding America is Jobs, Jobs Jobs.
Who's knocking on my door at this Hour???
Malatesta 1936. BINGO!
"Rational Things": Which doesn't fit?
A) Math
B) Science
C) Physics
D) Buildings exploding without explosives
E) Planes vaporizing
Answer: D,E
This is a welcome statement.
Chomsky does criticize the Bin Laden Caper on its own terms, i.e. taking the official accounts at face value. But to his credit, he employs qualifiers such as "appears" and " they claim".
I guess it's too much to expect disclaimers like, "If the official statements, reports, and accounts are to be believed..." and the like.
I conjecture that it either actually doesn't occur to Chomsky to include such rhetorical skepticism, or he believes it would distract from and dilute his main message-- that this action by the political and military leaders of the Amerikan Imperium is a gross and unconscionable travesty of international law, justice, and ethics, even if we accept the officially-spun version of events.
But I can't resist pointing out that making the expression of abiding skepticism and curiosity about what really happened on 9/11/01 effectively taboo, as Chomsky has done, only reinforces the manufactured myths and mendacity of the Official Story of the Nineteen Lone Nuts and their Elusive Super-Villain Mastermind-- now rendered permanently elusive after ostensibly being assassinated and whisked away permanently in a fog of Special Forces warfare.
That said, I'm truly gratified and grateful that Chomsky notes pointedly that "Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that 'we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda'”.
That's just one of a million untruths and self-serving, pernicious factoids from the smoking Black Hole of "9/11 truth" invoked and relied upon by the Amerikan government.
"I can't resist pointing out that making the expression of abiding skepticism and curiosity about what really happened on 9/11/01 effectively taboo, as Chomsky has done..."
OS, not sure what you're saying here. Chomsky's first two paragraphs explicitly lay out how Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, though suspected, were never positively identified as the 9/11 culprits. That seems to indicate at least skepticism of the "official story" and actions taken since.
I think you're both saying the same thing, OS and hamster, and I agree that Noam has let a little light into his previously ironclad rejection of the "inside job" hypothesis with his careful language here.
But what do you make of this statement:
"There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement."
This I found quite breathtaking. The tape in which "Bin Laden" boasts of his "achievement" is such an obvious fraud (many times proven), and was "found" in such dubious circumstances (by US soldiers in some godforsaken Afghani backwater), that I had to stop and reread the statement to make sure I had understood correctly. My final conclusion is that if there is some skepticism on Chomsky's part as to truth of the government's 911 narrative, it is due more to his instinctual suspicion of anything the government says than to any serious study of the merits of the case. There is no other way to interpret the fact that he could, in a single breath, both doubt the official attribution of guilt to Osama and Al Qaeda and lend credence to the bogus video.
Show me the body! Isn't anyone here even the lest bit suspicious, that maybe just maybe old Bin is right now sipping a an Ice Tea somewhere, now safely that he's been reported dead? Sorry, but the track record of the US Gov't in this whole seamy drama is less then credible.
I just think it's highly implausible that he isn't in fact dead. It would be the easiest thing in the world if he wasn't dead to get a camera pointed at him somehow with proof of life and permanently discredit the U.S. government (for those masses of Americans out in the streets chanting "USA" and the other psychotic jingoists who still take the U.S. government at least a little seriously). Why would the government, Obama take such a ridiculous chance? He's dead and the government's simply doing what it always does: we can see the pictures but you the public can't, we know how to handle things and you the public don't. It's disgusting, paternalistic, antidemocratic but it's what they do.
You are just repeating Truther Tales we have heard for a decade... The point is you have no credible proof that he has been dead since 2001.
For me Truthers here have taken on a zombie like quality to their arguments and have no points of fact except the Date: 9/11. They get that right but that is not enough.
The possibility of Osama already being dead goes beyond just the truther tales.
The fact remains that Osama has been reported dead numerous times by different heads of state since 2001.
Here is number 1 => http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html
Here is number 2 => http://articles.cnn.com/2002-01-18/world/gen.
musharraf.binladen_1_bin-mullah-mohammed-omar-pakistan-s-musharraf?_s=PM:asiapcf
Here is number 3 => http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/17/
attack/main515468.shtml
Here is number 4 => http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/
asiapcf/central/10/06/karzai.binladen/
Here is number 5 => http://usliberals.about.com/b/2005/11/25/
senator-harry-reid-told-osama-bin-laden
-killed-in-pakistan-earthquake.htm
Here is number 6 => http://usliberals.about.com/b/2006/09/23/
french-intelligence-also-suspects-osama-bin-laden-is-dead.htm
Here is number 7 => http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1859354,00.html
Here is number 8 => http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/13/osama-bin-elvis
And number 9 => http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/27/
osama-bin-laden-is-dead-a_n_191960.html
And, of course, now we have number 10... Obama saying Osama is dead.
Do you know what ALL of these reports have in common?
Two things: 1) not one report is from a 'truther' (just to point out why your comment about it being a "truther tale" is ABSURD!)
2) No proof. The last report of his death from the Pentagon conveniently decided to throw the proof into the ocean.
I betcha can't wait to see those doctored photos though...
Well Eric,
Nice job of googling.
Your first report was Fox News which gave no source with a name to be verified.
So after reading your first example, it makes sense that a Bush loving news program would start the disinformation to cover for the fact that Bush was in business with Osama's family.
The first report that he died of renal failure, not lung, was from one French report that could not be verified also but was said to be true by a Republican National Security insider who said a "General" told him that Osama was dead but never said who the "General" was.
Your CBS report in 2002, says in headlines "FBI Official Thinks Bin Laden Is Dead
But There's No Evidence To Prove It, Official Says"
But thanks, it makes sense that the first reports come from Bush friendly sources.
It is just more indication that the Truthers picked up on this distraction to cover for Bush letting it happen and then letting Osama escape several times, first at Tora Bora and then in 2005 ending the CIA program to find him.
I wonder what Osama would say if allowed to defend himself.
Are any of your other sources not CIA friendly?
Why would Pakistan not say he was dead, obviously that story kept them playing ball with both sides for their own rational purpose.
They do not want the US bombing them to find Osama so a little guess like that almost served them well. It was a Pakistani ISI who sent money to hijacker, Atta, in Florida so "Osama Dead" disinformation helps keep the heat off of them if you believe them.
No, I don't need any doctored photos any more than you do.
No. The links clearly show why your "truther tales" theory is ABSURD. Deal with it.
As for the rest of your response... I'm not sure what you are trying to say. And I don't really care to address any of it since you are too arrogant to admit that your comment --- "You are just repeating Truther Tales we have heard for a decade" IS FULL OF SHIT!
No your links are from Bush friendly sources which cannot be verified.
Also that was ten years ago. My point is that it is the people who believe only in the pre-wired demolition are pushing that Osama was dead in 2002 here on common dreams today... there may be exceptions but do you think it was pre-wired demolition derby with termite which does not explode it burns fast and hot and gives of flashes brighter than a hundred welding rods to be able to cut just one beam out of thousands supporting the Towers? Are you the exception here that does not buy the Truther Tales but believes Osama was dead in 2002 and someone you have not named has proof?
If the planes were fake to make it look like a foreign hijack attack why would they screw up and demolish number 7 without airliners and a missile on the pentagon?
Maybe you can come up with more bull shit to explain that.
They couldn't be that stupid and not get caught.
But here is some new info, if you can get out of your worn out 10 year old unverified stories put out by Bush friendly operators.
http://www.infowars.com/wikileaks-bombshell
-points-to-911-stand-down/
I'm sorry but all I heard from your reply was... "Blah, spin, blah, spin, blah, spin".
Let's go to the start, Jim. You stated:
"You are just repeating Truther Tales we have heard for a decade... The point is you have no credible proof that he has been dead since 2001. For me Truthers here have taken on a zombie like quality to their arguments and have no points of fact except the Date: 9/11. They get that right but that is not enough."
What you are doing here is trying to undermine the idea that Osama was already dead. The way you do this is by trying to conflate the idea of Osama already being dead with the "truther movement" - which we all know is used in a way to subvert and degrade a message... as you so perfectly demonstrated to us when you told us how you really felt about the truthers. So, by associating the two you are clearly trying to undermine the idea of Osama already being dead. Why? Was this your intention? The idea that he died years ago is plausible. He had a serious kidney problem in 2001. I understand that there is no credible proof, because it is supposedly in the ocean now, and conveniently we are - YET AGAIN - supposed to believe the story told by the corrupted Empire that has lied to us over and over and over and over and over. Excuse me if I choose not to be dumber for believing much of anything that this Empire has to say. I left the abusive relationship years ago.
So, I then explained to you (the entire point of my comment) that you were wrong in saying that "You are just repeating Truther Tales we have heard for a decade" by providing 9 links to PROVE to you that these 'tales' did NOT originate from the truther movement. It originated from the assortment of different news organizations (CNN, CBS, USLiberal, Rueters, Huffington Post, Time, Spectator and, yes, Fox.) btw - only a few of these could be considered "Bush friendly", but all of them could easily be considered "Empire friendly". These media sources got their information from the FBI, foreign intelligence agencies, Senators, former CIA people, and former heads of state. The proof is in the links. So clearly it was those intelligence folks who were promoting the idea of Osama being dead (information or disinformation... whatever, they were still promoting it) for the past decade, and NOT the truther movement.
I made the comment to SPECIFICALLY correct you on this matter. I did so. End of Story.
I'm not gonna follow you down a rabbit hole tonight, Jim. I will only say that I think the new information coming from the intelligence and foreign policy insider, Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, is damning evidence for the conviction of the folks who have hijacked our country.
Bye
Thanks for trying, Eric, but this is not a fair fight or true intellectual debate. It's a handful of us posters who smell a rat up against agents trained in dis-information tactics. Jim would no more hear the truth than a dog would be hired on Wall Street. If he's not on duty, they'll send in Jake Newton or some other data specialist to play games of minutiae intended to distort the big picture and cast doubt over any implausible detail they can turn into (what they think is) a viable argument.
If the times were not so difficult and dangerous, such parlor games would be beter tolerated. However, anyone who stands in the way of Truth causing that necessary awakening is an ENEMY of humanity. Perhaps they are so deluded in their own souls, so conditioned to grant authority to the Homeland Security State as to not recognize the full extent of their errors, their misplaced loyalty... if so, karma will be more lenient with them, as there is both actual ignorance, apart from the learned (or trained) kind.
They would effectively ask that those of us who ARE awake go back to sleep."Trust us. This will not hurt at all..." as we watch not just our nation-Empire crumble, but in its enormous, ecologically contaminating foot prints, take so much of the world down along with it. This goes beyond a war crime... this is a crime against LIFE and ALL LIVING BEINGS rendered on a collosal scale. If the living systems that have taken so many thousands upon thousands of years to build come apart, ALL life will be condemned. Perhaps only bacteria will endure to start the chains of DNA into motion all over again.
Before us are the wounds of war, more than a million left dead in the Middle East, radiation spewing from Japan, toxicity in the Gulf of Mexico, violent weather events escalating... and still, the US defers to its military? That creature that guarantees death and ecocide wherever it plants its toxic footprint? THIS is what our citizens are being asked to fund? This is what our leaders bow down to? This is what all the lies are about?
A wake-up call MUST happen...so those who PRETEND everything is the way the elites make it SEEM work against the best interests of LIFE itself! They need to be called out for their moral treason!
There was no proof in your links of a dead Osama.
But it is the Truthers who use these discredited Bush friendly sources and MSM as you did to claim he was dead without proof.
It was to Bush's advantage to not care about a "Dead Osama". Confusion and lies are war's best friend.
But we can stop all the dancing around here.
What do you believe about what you worked so hard to convince me of.
Do you believe Osama was dead in 2002?
You haven't said what you believe just a lot of who said this and that with no proof of Osama being dead before last May Day.
So, if you have something new here, lets hear it.
If you don't know, not sure, that is OK, so lets not waste each others time.
Jim,
I'm tired of your bullshit spin, and I know why you are trying to do it.
Oh, here is something new:
http://www.infowars.com/top-us-government-
insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/
Feel free to counter Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik's new gov't insider information...
Bye
Eric.A.Blair,
I am tired of your bullshit spin too.
But thanks for the link to info wars and maybe we should all cool off now.
I think DR Pieczenik is an honest man and I agree with most of what he says now but I have a negative personal opinion on Bush SR since I knew him way before he did.
But what he says about Osama being dead in 2002, was the word he heard from White House insiders at a time when the Bin laden family and Bush family business ties were a political liability to Bush JR and still is to the Bush
Crime family or what Osama would say if captured or what he would say in a death insurance statement if he had one. Bush was eager to forget about Osama for saving his own ass reasons.
Pieczenik tells of how his business in Psyops is about lying and manipulation so I do believe he believes what the unnamed general or General Franks who thought they bombed him to death at Tora Bora or that he was at a hospital with ills and what other Bush insiders told him about Osama being dead. But I am not convinced by just word of mouth when it comes to the deceptions of the Bush Gang. The Dr. must have been deceived many times to be in his racket just as we all are deceived by politicians and generals.
He doesn't talk about pre planned explosives in 9/11 at all here but goes father than me about how the White House was in on the "Attack" and he may be right as far as I have studied it.
So it is up to Obama to prove he killed Osama if he wants to.
If it was a demolition, It seems very unlikely that the first demolition bombs would still go off with perfect timing an hour or so later, but would have been blown up immediately all around the impact area when you see how massive the explosion of the impact was.
We can argue nano thermite forever so without proof of that, this is my last post on this Chomsky article and knowing how clever the Bush's are at cover-up deception
They would not need the Towers to fall in order to invade the Middle East.
Nobody believes that Osama could plant a demolition, and no guarantee that the government could hide it if the USA planted the bombs. That would be an unnecessary risk to the war plan.
Just the visual of airliners hitting the towers and the attack on the pentagon is plenty enough excuse to do everything that Bush did.
So go at me folks, because at this hour 5pm Monday, I need to do other things.
As far as what else we differ on, We'll See.
To Jim Glover:
I regret having to say that you're being needlessly obstinant. By repeatedly stating that there is no proof or evidence that controlled demolition took down WTC 1, 2, and 7, you are beîng as dogmatic as those who claim that no planes hit the towers or the Pentagon or that the hijackers are still alive.
A very plausible case has been made in favor of the controlled demolition hypothesis by the members of Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Go to their Web site and take stock of their arguments and evidence. In particular, watch AE founder Richard Gage's video presentation The Architecture of Destruction (the 2 h version).
It is not thermite that has been discovered in the dust of the WTC, but rather nanothermite. The difference between mere thermite and nanothermite is that between an incendiary and an explosive. Gage addresses that. See also Jim Hoffman's two papers about the topic at this Web site.
911 is actually a very complex issue and we are far from having gotten to the bottom of it. You are still being much too polemical about it not to appear suspect. A cool mind and curiosity are what's needed to approach this issue, not sentiment and ad hominems. I do hope that you will finally take the time to look into what very serious folks have to say about the matter (also relevant in this respect is The Journal of 911 Studies, an online, peer-reviewed, and free publication). As of now, your attitude towards the matter is entirely unhelpful.
Oikos,
To you I am obstinate because I don't buy what your selling.
I have seen the Engineers material it is boring because they have questions, but no proof of demolition.
How many Architects and engineers are their in the US?.... yet not many of yours even know that structural steel begins to fail at only 1000 degrees F.
Nano Thermite?... Iron and aluminum particles were found and speculation about that but the airplanes were mostly aluminum and alloys and the insides and outsides of the towers had lots of aluminum and the steel structure had iron and intense heat can oxidize iron to get iron oxides.
You could be helpful to give me a link that shows just the "weapons grade nano thermite", and how it was used.
Tell us where this "weapons grade nano thermite" is found and how it can be used to bring down 3 buildings with no witnesses to how it was done.
If it is in all the dust as claimed, how did it not get burned?...this stuff does not go out once it gets to burning.... If unburned is in all the dust, there must have been more thermite than anything else in the buildings and if nobody witnessed the careful placing of explosives in 3 buildings, that is not reasonable.... but particles of aluminum and Iron and many other metals would be logical to find in the dust.
Just make it short so we can get to the Thermite and how it was done.
In the meantime debunk this, http://www.debunking911.com/
Also notice in the big photo of the tower falling it is tilted not a straight down fall in its own "footprint" and the real footprint destroyed every building.. all 7 in the complex.
Get to work if you want to convince me.
Jim G. states with certainty: "In the meantime debunk this..."
That can be easily done with this book as David Ray Griffin simply swats away those puny arguments made by your link.
http://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156656686X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304893176&sr=1-1
Physicist Steven E. Jones also more than effectively answers your questions concerning thermite and thermate in Chapter Three of the book 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak out which is edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott. The name of the chapter is appropriately titled:
"Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?"
As Dr. Jones states, "Experts have pointed out that the fires in the WTC buildings would not have caused any of the steel to melt." [p. 36]. Dr. Jones has the NIST report admitting "that the fires were insufficient to melt steel beams." [p. 37].
The point of all this, of course, is that there are more than enough questions that have been raised, both in these books and others, about the mysterious events that took place on September 11, 2001 which should warrant, unlike the less than credible 9/11 Commission that was headed by Bush insider Philip Zelikow, an open and honest investigation of what unfolded on that day and which should be composed of firefighters, air traffic controllers, academics, intellectuals, scientists, physicists, engineers, and the families who lost their loved ones on 9/11/01.
The Italian made documentary Zero: An Investigation Into 9/11, which I believe to be superior to the Loose Change films and which was made with the collaboration of over 400 people, does an excellent analysis of what happened on that day.
There were no thermite explosions in the towers so there was more termites than thermite.
That was a mispelling by the way as if you didn't know, but if you wanna get that picky you can read my reply to Oikos above.
Show me the "nano thermite" or nano termites if you can.
By the way, who said you ever had any credibility to begin with?
Oh, the old Brooklyn Bridge Sale.
I hear Zombies are trying to sell it now, maybe you can get your cut.
You conclusion that it would be the easiest thing in the world if he wasn't dead to get a camera pointed at him to discredit the U.S. government is assuming that the U.S. government and Bin Laden were actually really antagonists.
I think the comment you replied to was wondering if that really was the case. If Bin Laden and the U.S. government were in cahoots to pull off 9-11, then both the failure to find him the last decade and his recent deaths were both fictions by the U.S. to protect their ally. If that is the case they don't have to worry about anyone popping up and taking a picture of him. He'd be just as concerned about keeping the story going that's he dead as the U.S. government.
What do I think? I don't know. That's why we need a real investigation and I don't like that supposedly Bin Laden was killed and buried at sea because it's one more block to a real investigation.
I can get with that.
Thanks Noam. There is a good deal to think about.
"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field.
I'll meet you there." Rumi
There is no justification for killing an unarmed man. When "We the People" had a moral compass in our hearts we did not need to research international law. Now, empire decides what is the law.
Greenwald's article is something to think about - "U.S. Tries to Assassinate US Citizen Anwar al-Awlaki". Assassinate, US Citizen, Patriot Act, Magna Carta........ The ends do not justify the means.
We have a lot to think about as a people. Who have we become? We need to step out of ourselves and take a good look at how we fit into the great scheme of things. Look at what is being done in our names and the names of our posterity. We need to become like children, who know right from wrong.
I was disgusted at Anderson Cooper last night when he said in a promo for his show something about the U.S. hunting down "American born foreign terrorist Al-Awlaki"
Oh, I get it. He's not a citizen anymore. Now he's an American born foreigner.
You have critical thinking skills. Don't let out where you got them. There is Plutocratic capital out there that wants to privatize your school and neuter it.
The imperial mentality was evident in all the "Osama Finally Brought to Justice"
headlines. Justice used to mean a trial, now it is judicial murder; or just plain murder.
Thank You Mr. Chomsky. A voice of reason. All the voices of reason I have been relying on for the past 4 years or so, have bailed on this tough issue. Even Amy Goodman seemed to lose her ability to be an investigative journalist.
Every last Lakota I know is happy about OBL's death except about 5 or 6 of us. The people (lakota) have been caught up in militarism and have blinding support to American military and foreign policy despite screaming "the u.s. stole our land, they violated treaties, and are violating the treaty (1868 fort laramie treaty) they committed and commit genocide on us, they never kept one promise to us"! etc... This is exactly how it is at home. I am serious it is the twilight zone here. Those same people turn and condone the violation and murder of other people around the world in the name of protecting the united states. So it is helpful when someone as respected as Noam Chomsky weighs in on this.
Seeing the reaction in this country following the reported assassination of a sick old man by the very best our military can produce, it becomes easier to understand how Hitler came to power in nation that was economically on its knees after WWI
We profess to be a religious nation, Christian we say. The prime tenant of Christianity is the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated. That is, expect that others will do to you what you do to them. By our Christian faith, we should expect and welcome foreign commandos attacking our leaders. But we don't of course. Why? Possibly we are not Christians, but only claim to be for reasons of self-righteousness. Possibly we have no ability to emphasize with others with whom we share the planet. Possibly we like war, destruction, and death, as a release of our frustrations during the demise of our democracy. President Obama's pleasure and glorification of these events demeans himself, his office, and our country. Vote Third Party next time.
It's good to read some cool, clear words on this. Thank you Prof. Chomsky!
"The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world."
I haven't seen any official explanation from the authorities as to the reason for this method of rapid disposal. Has anyone else ?
Thanks for your post, as usual it brings clarity and sense in a neoconservative insane world. And without the proof, it does make it vastly more easy to understand why a 'body' was dumped at sea, there will be no pictures, the vaunted seal team won't get public recognition.
It was always 'told' to me that the rantings and ravings of a 'noam chomsky thinking and writings' were poppycock until I decided that I really ought invest in his writings and others such as Howard Zinn, Chalmers Johnson, Naomi Klein and Scott Ritter and others.
And now I know why the thoughts and writings of these people are shunned, it brings truth to the light of day and that is what far too many people don't want, discovery, transparency and questionings of what they SAY is right when in truth is always shows them to be wrong and down right criminal.
Good article, this is what I've been saying about the assassination. Dead men tell no tales, which was precisely the purpose of kiling bin Laden as opposed to arresting him. Re Pakistan, one could look at it as the media and US govt are, i.e., that it knowingly harbored a wanted criminal. Or, it could be viewed as not turning in someone who the US called guilty before being proven so. Osama bin Laden was no more a terrorist than is George Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Condaleez Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, et al. But now the myth of Sept. 11th is being written in stone.
Noam Chomsky excels at pointing out American hypocrisy.
We are told to be indignant at stories of people cheering when the towers fell on 9-11, even though there is no proof of that.
On the other hand, Americans are screaming like football fans at the assassination of Osama. Flag-waving, cheering. How does that look to the rest of the world?
Not that I believe that it was Osama who was assassinated. I'm just saying.