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Are Video Game Makers Becoming Responsible?
If the game has to do with the seriousness of head concussions during sports play; the answer is, “Yes.” If it has to do with rewarding youth when they murder, steal and abuse women; the answer is, “No.”
Schwarz wrote in the NY Times recently that the latest version of NFL 12, which has sold over 90 million copies, will make certain that head injuries resulting in concussions will sideline the player for the game. No exceptions. It is not surprising that some NFL players aren’t thrilled about these changes, given the fact that earlier versions of this game allowed ambulances to run over players on the field. The industry appears to comprehend the impact videos have on players.
What is interesting about this new found awareness, on the part of video profiteers, is they admit that video games are teaching our youth. Industry experts acknowledge that changing the way head injuries are dealt with on a video game will drastically affect how youngsters view head injuries, and that video games are a known “teaching tool.” So we can conclude that video games offer an opportunity to teach safety and values about health, while helping young boys learn to care about their health. Terrific.
Then we have Gearbox Software’s Duke Nukem 3D, which features radioactive vibrators humming across counters, and schoolgirls kissing as Duke looks on saying, “All right, time for my reward,” (the girls comply with oral copulation). Players in 3D can “Capture the Babe” a variation on Capture the Flag, only opposing teams kidnap the opposition’s scantily-clad sexualized females, who rebel with kicking and screaming, at which point players learn to spank them to make them obey.
According to Gearbox CEO Randy Pitchford, “Our goal isn’t to shock people, but I think there’s some stuff that’ll be just a bit uncomfortable” and that “We try to get right up to that edge and then relax enough so people don’t reject it.”
Clearly the U.S. Military rides this edge, as they market their own free-to-play game, America’s Army. This violent game competes with others like Modern Warfare 2 and has become the most effective recruiting tool yet, according to MIT researchers. That these games might hide the reality of war, appears to be of no concern to our military.
Numerous studies over many years repeatedly document that children learn from what they see on screens. The known effects of consuming violent media are; Fear and Anxiety, Desensitization, and Aggression. If favorite media characters are rewarded for being violent or abusive, then the lesson is writ large. Dr. Craig Anderson, author of, “Violent Video Game Effects on Children and Adolescents,” has found that games don’t have to be outwardly violent to inspire aggressive behavior. Even cute characters with happy music caused 40% of the children studied to exhibit aggressive behavior. The game industry is so protective of their billion dollar industry that they anxiously hire the best First Amendment lawyers to successfully argue in court for the right of underage children to purchase adult themed videos like Duke Nukem.
We hope Madden and his concerned experts might be willing to talk to Pitchford, or to our military. Potentially, even Dr. Craig Anderson could join them. Or is the real lesson that when profit is at stake, teaching our youth to murder, steal or abuse women is acceptable? Let’s hope that this new found concern over young male craniums will inspire all video game creators to take more responsibility for the many messages in video games.
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48 Comments so far
Show AllIt's not just about recruiting, but also general propaganda, aimed at everyone who plays games. Modern Warfare is imo absolutely disgusting, but its technical and gameplay qualities are top notch. Along with its anti-Arab racism, jingoism and technofetishism (the first MW has a section where you can effectively replay the infamous AC-130 gunship video), it's generally about glamorizing and glorifying not just the military as it is, but the authoritarian, top-down, need-to-know type of social organisation it represents in general. It's completely Western centric and questions no military values or actions. The Arabs and the terrorists (ultra-nationalists!) are always incredibly evil, even going as far as nuking their own capital, despite heroic British and American soldiers.
Disgusting, piece of shit propaganda vomit. But it's excellently made and plays well. And don't get me started on the Fallujah game.
Great post, Atomsk. The video gaming industry cares only about profits. But where are the parents of these kids that are purchasing/viewing this mind-altering garbage?
But so has and does every form of media, including this blog article. All of them have an agenda, in some cases better reasoned and orchestrated than in others, but at the end of the day they have an agenda. Media are a reflection of the culture of the place that produces them. The reason for so many violent and demeaning games is that they are produced by a culture that values both a glamourized version of military life and the objectification of women. Sadly, the state of affairs is that the vast majority of people have abandoned books and chosen Snooki as the place to get their culture.
Having said that, people like Anderson and the author of this post are ignoring the simple fact that a vast majority of game titles out there feature very little violence. The Sims franchise ( a virtual dollhouse), Wii Sports, and Farmville outsell most other game franchises out there, and the fact that these are doing positive things such as channeling massive donations to places like Haiti and Japan does not seem to register with them. Perhaps that message does not sell as well? And if you want an example of an educational game, just try almost anything made by Sid Meier, I bet a day playing Railroads would teach a kid more about business than the same day taking a business class.
Do not take me wrong, there is a lot of irresponsible content out in the game space, but so is there in the tv space, book space, and public discourse as well. But for good or for evil, America decided to cherish it's first ammendment even to it's logical extremes. If you don't like it, get involved in your local politics, make a difference that way. The author should do the same.
"But so has and does every form of media, including this blog article. All of them have an agenda, in some cases better reasoned and orchestrated than in others, but at the end of the day they have an agenda. Media are a reflection of the culture of the place that produces them. The reason for so many violent and demeaning games is that they are produced by a culture that values both a glamourized version of military life and the objectification of women. Sadly, the state of affairs is that the vast majority of people have abandoned books and chosen Snooki as the place to get their culture."
Not right at all. Media and the culture are part of the same cycle, not separate from each other. It's not just because the culture wants something that media produces it - there are powers external to the culture that try to influence and modify it. Financial power and whatever it can by (including technology, which includes the technology of propaganda) can influence culture through a lot of means, and mass media is a pretty important part of that. America's Army or Top Gun or Modern Warfare etc are all supported by the army because they're awesome recruiting tools - they're not a passive reflection of culture, far from it: they're actively forming it. Similar to TV and video games. And behind these are legions of psychologists and engineers and marketing and PR experts, supported by tons of research, focus groups and large amounts of money in general, all working towards very similar goals, and often very consciously.
"Having said that, people like Anderson and the author of this post are ignoring the simple fact that a vast majority of game titles out there feature very little violence. The Sims franchise ( a virtual dollhouse), Wii Sports, and Farmville outsell most other game franchises out there, and the fact that these are doing positive things such as channeling massive donations to places like Haiti and Japan does not seem to register with them. Perhaps that message does not sell as well? "
Again, and again, and again: stop with the goddamn strawmen please. Of course there are non-violent games out there, but that does not change how many people play MW or BF or MoH etc and the influence this has on children. Read my other posts.
As for donations and so on: people are nice, and all industries, all charity leeches on that. Charity is an individual solution to a structural problem, and frankly, I find the "play for Japan" etc bullshit really hypocritical.
"And if you want an example of an educational game, just try almost anything made by Sid Meier, I bet a day playing Railroads would teach a kid more about business than the same day taking a business class."
Ugh. It may help a little, but overall, this is absolutely false. Most gaming "skills", apart from some limited manual skills are absolutely and obviously non-transferrable. I've played my share of sim games and I lead my share of projects and this idea is just ridiculous. It's on the same level of people claiming organising WoW raids as leadership experience. (What's somewhat true, in my personal experience, is that the way people play a game and their taste in games, as far as stories and genres go, reflects to a very small extent their approach to work.)
"America decided to cherish it's first ammendment even to it's logical extremes. If you don't like it, get involved in your local politics, make a difference that way. The author should do the same."
Again: you can't seriously believe that this is about free speech, that a game that sells 5.6 million copies on its first day (like Black Ops) is simply "free speech" and nothing else. You have to make a distinction between individual free speech which can in theory reflect an individual's opinion and thoughts (although it is often manipulative, just like corporate "speech") and corporate free speech which is *never* honest, can not, by its nature, reflect an "opinion" and "thoughts", because corporations don't have those - they reflect corporate *interests*, as seen through not debate but effective measurable quantities: sales, profits, popularity numbers, election outcomes. "Free speech" in the hands of a corporation ultimately has to boil down to manipulation.
The first amendment should be a protection for weak, powerless opinion against power concentration trying to supporess it - not another offensive tool in the arsenal of corporate concentration of power. Freedom of corporate speech just leads to restriction (marginalisation and devaluation) of individual speech. The question is whether you keep believing in this bullshit "principle": the idea that organisations are themselves individuals but on a higher level (a nice, elegant, idiotic philosophical system), or if you can look at reality as it is.
If you want to talk about propaganda, the U.S. Army's free video game, "America's Army" is propaganda designed as a recruiting tool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army
Most of the parents are themselves a product of the mass entertainment culture already, and an increasing number of them are themselves video game players. I have to admit that I love video games, and even though my views on mass media and its effects have changed a lot during the last decade or so, I can't give them up, and have to fight myself not to inundate children in my neighbourhood :-) I read regularly (a few books a week), watch no movies and have no TV subscription, but video games, I can't give them up. They are just too much fun to play. Even more so for children.
Which is in my opinion the biggest problem with video games (and mass entertainment in general): they make every other type of learning *incompetitive*. In the competition for children's attention (and thus pedagogical influence), teachers and parents are at a disadvantage compared to mass produced, psychologically engineered products. But the reason these products are so fun and addictive is imo the exact reason they're not fit for pedagogy: they give immediate, short term rewards, regularly; reward time invested (also skill in more traditional video games, but more and more it's purely time invested that gets rewarded); require short attention spans and of course usually present an incredibly simplistic, downright primitive view of the world (which is often abusable - video game "exploits" and "cheats" are imo actually a pretty good analogy to what happened in the financial crisis for example :-) ). As opposed to this, pedagogy traditionally focuses on long term rewards (lengthening the feedback cycle or whatever its called); tries to come as close to reality as possible and requires long (and lengthening) attention spans.
The main difference is that in the first set of requirements everything is easy, simple, self-fulfilling, and requires no human supervision; while the second is difficult, requires effort and can be failed without (and even with) proper pedagogical supervision and leading and directing the child. Pedagogy, if everything stays the same and it can only use its own tools, simply has no chance in this "competition". This is also the reason that I'm not too happy about technologisation of education. It's ok to an extent, for example, for getting access to more information or in some cases to better interactive pedagogical tools that can make repetitive practice more acceptable and efficient. But technology imo is mainly used to integrate traditional education into the corporate structure, to inundate children with the corporate mentality and to generally exert ideological control over education.
There are lots of types of video games. Some of them require yes, long term patience. And some of them, those that allow a player who can program to add their own modifications, design their own scenarios, sometimes even motivate some players to learn computer programming. In fact, a fair number of people who go to college to study computer science, especially nowadays, were / are motivated to do so because of their gaming. Some colleges actually use game programming, those games that allow gamers to program in their own modifications, to teach computer programming.
And multiple player games, which are the most popular types of games anyway, do not have a simple view of the world, simply because the other player(s) you are playing with is / are human, and you have to behave yourself much as you would when interacting with other humans.
I'm not saying that there aren't great and pedagogically positive games at all, but they're sadly not the most widely played games. Believe me, I really love video games, even a lot of the stuff I consider bad. I've been gaming for thirty years now and I have a pretty large collection of several hundred games, but I still think that *as they exist*, their overall pedagogical effects are still negative. It's not a problem with the medium. It's a problem with the structure of the industry exploiting it - and it's the same problem that every other industry has. Video games as they are in this moment are imo in some respects powerful training and propaganda tools, but are not - at this moment at least - good for positive pedagogy, not because they're inherently bad, but because pedagogy is difficult and we know too little about it and it involves a lot of moral decisions and we simply don't have the knowledge we'd need to create those games yet - but in spite of this, people still use, without much restraint I might add, tools of manipulation and propaganda in video games.
I don't think deep strategy games and flight or train simulators (which, btw, almost always have an extremely strong community component, which I personally like a lot better than the communities that form in WoW and most other mmos) are the same as MW. But overall, the overwhelming majority of played video games do not require long term patience (some create a long term commitment through mentally exploitative methods, "engineered addictivity") or effort.
As for muds, if you were thinking of them, well, they're nice, but afaik, they're getting less and less popular, partly because of the increased popularity of mass produced MMO content and partly because of the increasing popularity of the social networks. On the topic of getting some kids to program, well...you know, this doesn't impress me, and I don't believe that's an actual achievement. I learned programming when I was around 10, on a ZX Spectrum, and it was, well, because I was the type of person who's better fit to be around computers than people. It was nice that I could control stuff and so on, and it was interesting. Motivating people like me to become programmers, well, I don't really think it's a big thing. It's fun for them and it's good for business. If you could have motivated me to be around real people and make real friends, now that would have helped :-) Programming is a good, sellable skill, and the market will be good to identify and exploit these; but if you show me a game that can choose and help make and motivate good teachers, I'll be convinced :-)
"And multiple player games, which are the most popular types of games anyway, do not have a simple view of the world, simply because the other player(s) you are playing with is / are human, and you have to behave yourself much as you would when interacting with other humans."
But still, if you look at raid videos, you'll still mostly see idiots shouting orders to others, as if they were in (what they think is) the military :-/ Mmos of course are somewhat different, because you do interact with people, but the EVE type games are pretty rare and and frankly, fringe games. Awesome though. Most people who play MMOs play WoW, and I absolutely agree with Jonathan Blow (of Braid fame) about WoW's unethical approach towards players. The other people play shooter games online, and the social aspect of that is...not very nice. If you ever want to survey how (mostly American) kids curse and how they can handle defeat (or winning) or if you want to see racism and jingoism, just play a game or two of MW on Live with random people. Or play a bit of Uno with the xbox camera for the occasional nude idiot posing for minors :-) I mean, in my opinion that kind of "community" is in general not a positive thing. Of course gaming has good sides and awesome communities too, but imo they're not the majority. As for the really popular phone/facebook stuff...ugh.
And finally, if you look at what kind of "virtual realities" and communities of people create for themselves, well, you don't have to go further than, yes, you guessed it, Second Life. It's not like I have a problem with furries, they're some of the best targets for retarded cheap asshole humour, but, you know, it's a bit indicative of what an inward-turning, self-absorbed civilisation does with its free time. I mean, I don't really like Michael Albert's approach of designing a society, but at least it's about reality. It's a better way to spend your time than holding dark elf weddings in WoW or whatever. And seriously, working on creating a nice imaginary life instead of, you know, thinking about reality, well, I'm not sure that's all that awesome. Overall, I think that video games sucking up people's individual and community time is pretty awesome for a top down autocratic structure, and pretty bad for self-organisation and democracy in the long term. If religion is the opium of the masses, video games *as they are* are at least crack cocaine. Or maybe the other way around.
Well, I've been gaming for a long time too, since the days of C / E GA graphics.
Re games overall pedagogical effects, yes, they are probably overally negative. So what? Most games are and were not designed to be pedagogical. Just like most entertainment is not designed to be pedagogical. That some can even have a positive pedagogical effect is frankly speaking, pretty impressive.
"As for muds, if you were thinking of them, well, they're nice, but afaik, they're getting less and less popular, partly because of the increased popularity of mass produced MMO content and partly because of the increasing popularity of the social networks"
I'm not thinking of muds so much as any form of online games. Games that involve real humans tend to be ones that are most popular.
"On the topic of getting some kids to program, well...you know, this doesn't impress me, and I don't believe that's an actual achievement. I learned programming when I was around 10, on a ZX Spectrum, and it was, well, because I was the type of person who's better fit to be around computers than people. It was nice that I could control stuff and so on, and it was interesting. Motivating people like me to become programmers, well, I don't really think it's a big thing. It's fun for them and it's good for business. If you could have motivated me to be around real people and make real friends, now that would have helped :-) Programming is a good, sellable skill, and the market will be good to identify and exploit these; but if you show me a game that can choose and help make and motivate good teachers, I'll be convinced :-)
"
What music, art, books, TV, is there that can choose, help make and motivate good teachers? Furthermore, what was true for you then, is not true nowadays. As more and more people are gaming, people who were not motivated to learn programming as kids / teens are learning it. I know some people, doctors and such who learned programming for gaming.
"But still, if you look at raid videos, you'll still mostly see idiots shouting orders to others, as if they were in (what they think is) the military :-/ Mmos of course are somewhat different, because you do interact with people, but the EVE type games are pretty rare and and frankly, fringe games. "
I think this is essentially what we disagree on. Your impression of gaming is that shooter type games where teenagers act like (severely testosterone poisoned) teenagers are the most popular. My impression is that they are not.
"And finally, if you look at what kind of "virtual realities" and communities of people create for themselves, well, you don't have to go further than, yes, you guessed it, Second Life. It's not like I have a problem with furries, they're some of the best targets for retarded cheap asshole humour, but, you know, it's a bit indicative of what an inward-turning, self-absorbed civilisation does with its free time. I mean, I don't really like Michael Albert's approach of designing a society, but at least it's about reality. It's a better way to spend your time than holding dark elf weddings in WoW or whatever."
But why? Humans have always sought fantasy, sought alternate realities. Your argument is that this is undesirable. Is inward-turning, is introspection an undesirable thing? Is occasionally seeking "forgetfulness" a bad thing? Could it be that, at least for some people, that can maintain sanity?
"And seriously, working on creating a nice imaginary life instead of, you know, thinking about reality, well, I'm not sure that's all that awesome. Overall, I think that video games sucking up people's individual and community time is pretty awesome for a top down autocratic structure, and pretty bad for self-organisation and democracy in the long term."
You are assuming that if people were not designing dark elf weddings, they would be out on the street protesting, or seeking to change society (I have a friend who is crazy about Madden etc, football games; she's actually crazy about anything involving football. Get rid of Madden, and she would not be spending the freed up time organising and protesting, just doing something else involving football) Or, assuming that just because they are designing dark elf weddings (and maybe some alternative system of organising society online in a game) they are not interested in changing the "real" world, perhaps to that of their alternative system.
"Re games overall pedagogical effects, yes, they are probably overally negative. So what? Most games are and were not designed to be pedagogical. Just like most entertainment is not designed to be pedagogical. That some can even have a positive pedagogical effect is frankly speaking, pretty impressive. "
My fear is that their effect is incredibly, overwhelmingly negative, in terms of critical thinking, understanding complex issues, attitudes on racism, empire, sexism etc. And even more so, I suspect (although this is just a hunch that you can ignore) that they (or rather, a certain type of screen media, definitely not just, or probably even mainly, games) have a detrimental effect on attention span and focus (this is something I'm really worried and curious about). And while games are not designed to be pedagogical (even though I think we should at least have some pedagogical component in anything that children consume in such incredible masses like mass produced "screen media", ie. video games, movies, TV series etc), they're often very propagandistic and designed to be so. That's a huge problem imo.
"I'm not thinking of muds so much as any form of online games. Games that involve real humans tend to be ones that are most popular."
Well, you mentioned programming, which is why I thought you were talking about MUDs.
"What music, art, books, TV, is there that can choose, help make and motivate good teachers? "
Are you kidding me with this question? Music? Art? Literature? I can spend days listing the stuff. How can you even contemplate the idea that the greatest products of human culture can not or does not regularly inspire, teach, motivate good teachers?
"Furthermore, what was true for you then, is not true nowadays. As more and more people are gaming, people who were not motivated to learn programming as kids / teens are learning it. I know some people, doctors and such who learned programming for gaming. "
Well, it's nice and all, but, really, I think it's a pretty (very) unimportant issue. It's about a high-tech, high-cost, labour intensive type of cultural production getting a grassroots producer community, and while I agree that it's nice, I must say that it's absolutely insignificant and irrelevant, compared to all the negative effects I was talking about. I think the world would be a much better place if this was an actual important issue :-)
"I think this is essentially what we disagree on. Your impression of gaming is that shooter type games where teenagers act like (severely testosterone poisoned) teenagers are the most popular. My impression is that they are not. "
TBH I don't care about what's most popular, but about what's making the biggest impression on children and teenagers, and these games are definitely very important in these respects. Also, it's not "teenagers acting like teenagers". There's of course a lot of psychological stuff going on when you're a teenager, but you can't seriously say that acting like a racist, sexist, violent asshole is the only possible and realistic way teenagers can act and that the active encouragement of primitive behavior is neutral. What do children and teenagers see and enjoy of popular culture most? I do not deny that there's a lot of nice, inspiring stuff out there, but I'm focusing on the most consumed non-neutral stuff.
"But why? Humans have always sought fantasy, sought alternate realities. Your argument is that this is undesirable. Is inward-turning, is introspection an undesirable thing? Is occasionally seeking "forgetfulness" a bad thing? Could it be that, at least for some people, that can maintain sanity? "
No, inward turning and introspection can be good and they aren't completely avoidable anyway. My argument is not that this is undesirable, but that having nothing but this, and focusing on it so deeply merits a lot more attention and research because I think it is pretty probable that inward-turning on *such a massive scale* is a reflection of large social problems. I do not want to take Second Life away from people. That, I agree, is absolutely stupid. It's absolutely not that I want to eliminate cultural products that I personally do not like. It's about thinking about the larger social context and how we can create an *environment* that'd produce better stuff and happier people. I mean, I don't mind Farmville, reality shows or MW in themselves - but knowing that this is the kind of stuff that children and teenagers consume while they're spending 7.5 hours in front of screen media (TV, video games, phones) every day, well, I don't see how it isn't worrying.
And it's not like there's too much counteracting action, too much criticism, too much dissent about these issues, so it's not worth talking about them. It's also not like the trends have already changed - they're continuing and becoming stronger day by day. I think some observation and reflection is absolutely necessary.
"You are assuming that if people were not designing dark elf weddings, they would be out on the street protesting, or seeking to change society (I have a friend who is crazy about Madden etc, football games; she's actually crazy about anything involving football. Get rid of Madden, and she would not be spending the freed up time organising and protesting, just doing something else involving football) Or, assuming that just because they are designing dark elf weddings (and maybe some alternative system of organising society online in a game) they are not interested in changing the "real" world, perhaps to that of their alternative system."
Again, I don't think there is such a direct connection, and I actually don't have a problem with the communities themselves. I would absolutely disagree with taking stuff away from people against their will. But this question involves a lot more than just the end-producers, the programmers, artists making the video games, and the end consumers. There's a whole industry around them, and this industry is part of an even larger entertainment industry, which is again a part of a larger structure. I don't want to hurt the individuals at the bottom, but want to know how the larger structure influences their lives. I think this inward turning is a sign of social problems, not a sin of individuals.
For an example of how good a game can be check out Crayon Physics Deluxe:
http://www.crayonphysics.com/
It's fun, accessible and requires a bit of thought and experimentation.
I'm not associated with the game in any way, I just think it's a wonderful game for kids and adults. It's non-violent and encourages creativity. There's a free download of part of the game at the website.
"My fear is that their effect is incredibly, overwhelmingly negative, in terms of critical thinking, understanding complex issues, attitudes on racism, empire, sexism etc."
Compared to other mass entertainment products?
"Well, you mentioned programming, which is why I thought you were talking about MUDs.
"
Some games offer toolkits etc, that allow those who can program to add their own modifications.
"Are you kidding me with this question? Music? Art? Literature? I can spend days listing the stuff. How can you even contemplate the idea that the greatest products of human culture can not or does not regularly inspire, teach, motivate good teachers?
"
List a few. I cannot think of any that can inspire, teach, motivate good teachers. The greatest products of human culture don't usually have motivating good teachers as their goal. They usually inspire people to learn music, or to become a writer, not to become a teacher. Does listening to Bach's WTK inspire someone to become a piano teacher, or learn to play the piano?
"TBH I don't care about what's most popular, but about what's making the biggest impression on children and teenagers, and these games are definitely very important in these respects. "
But are they making the biggest imression on children and teenagers? If they are making such a big impression, why do this children and teenagers not continue to play these games? If they are making such a big impression, they should be more popular.
"There's of course a lot of psychological stuff going on when you're a teenager, but you can't seriously say that acting like a racist, sexist, violent asshole is the only possible and realistic way teenagers can act and that the active encouragement of primitive behavior is neutral. What do children and teenagers see and enjoy of popular culture most? I"
The key work to me here is ACTING. I'm not convinced that there really is this mass of sexist racist teens out there. Or put it another way. Read the comments section of pretty much any article on a mainstream website. Read the comments section on Yahoo, or youtube. Many comments are full of racist, sexist ranting.
". My argument is not that this is undesirable, but that having nothing but this, and focusing on it so deeply merits a lot more attention and research because I think it is pretty probable that inward-turning on *such a massive scale* is a reflection of large social problems. I do not want to take Second Life away from people. That, I agree, is absolutely stupid. It's absolutely not that I want to eliminate cultural products that I personally do not like. It's about thinking about the larger social context and how we can create an *environment* that'd produce better stuff and happier people. I mean, I don't mind Farmville, reality shows or MW in themselves - but knowing that this is the kind of stuff that children and teenagers consume while they're spending 7.5 hours in front of screen media (TV, video games, phones) every day, well, I don't see how it isn't worrying.
"
It is not an issue of you wanting to take away anything you consider negative. That is not the issue. The issue is whether it what you consider negative is actually negative. How do you know that the people planning dark elve weddings aren't happy people?
"I don't want to hurt the individuals at the bottom, but want to know how the larger structure influences their lives. I think this inward turning is a sign of social problems, not a sin of individuals.
.."
Well, I am interested in how the larger structure influences people's lives too. I simply see no reason to assume why inward turning and introspection is negative, or a sign of social problems. In any case, that inward turning and introspection isn't ALL that inward, since, if someone is designing dark elf weddings, it will almost certainly involve other people, they are simply choosing to spend their free time with other people who share their interests, all the technology does is faciliate this. In the past they would probably have been socially ostracised as "geeks".
"Compared to other mass entertainment products?"
No, I'm talking about video games. Gaming is an ascendent medium, which can technically include all other forms of media, so in the long run, it may turn out to be the single most important one. And again: I don't have problems with the genre itself. I'm not attacking "gaming", that's a retarded idea and a strawman. I'm talking about the current structure of the gaming industry and culture.
"List a few. I cannot think of any that can inspire, teach, motivate good teachers. The greatest products of human culture don't usually have motivating good teachers as their goal. They usually inspire people to learn music, or to become a writer, not to become a teacher. Does listening to Bach's WTK inspire someone to become a piano teacher, or learn to play the piano? "
What the fuck, man. You seriously had no teacher who was inspired by some piece of literature that they wanted to share? Do you really think that, say, teachers of literature who were inspired by a book are all failed writers? Seriously, wtf.
"The key work to me here is ACTING. I'm not convinced that there really is this mass of sexist racist teens out there. Or put it another way. Read the comments section of pretty much any article on a mainstream website. Read the comments section on Yahoo, or youtube. Many comments are full of racist, sexist ranting. "
I have no idea how this is relevant to what I said. Racism and sexism is not rare at all, and almost all forms of media are part of that. And no, it's very often not acting.
"It is not an issue of you wanting to take away anything you consider negative. That is not the issue. The issue is whether it what you consider negative is actually negative. How do you know that the people planning dark elve weddings aren't happy people?"
I said we need more research and discussion on this topic, and mentioned a *fact* (that children and teenagers spend over 7 hours per day on average in front of screen media) that could be worrying. I mean, maybe I'm just too old or stupid or whatever, but I can't just accept the argument that because this "may be" good and the people doing it "may be" happy people, so we should just leave everything as it is.
"Well, I am interested in how the larger structure influences people's lives too. I simply see no reason to assume why inward turning and introspection is negative, or a sign of social problems. In any case, that inward turning and introspection isn't ALL that inward, since, if someone is designing dark elf weddings, it will almost certainly involve other people, they are simply choosing to spend their free time with other people who share their interests, all the technology does is faciliate this. In the past they would probably have been socially ostracised as "geeks"."
I never said introspection could only be negative. But you do have to have some connection with reality, and people playing a part in the same make believe world is not a connection with reality.
Please understand that I have no problem with these people (being very much one of them). I don't want to stop them (or myself) from getting some fun out of life in a virtual world that's often more free and humane than reality. My point is the fact that people have to resort to these things in such enormous masses, because there's no alternative in the real world, may be a sign of a huge social problem.
But seriously, virtual realities can never, ever take the place of reality. They can never give you the same sense of achievement, the same happiness, the same friendships and human connections as real life does. It took me some years to understand this, but it's true :-(
"Gaming is an ascendent medium, which can technically include all other forms of media, so in the long run, it may turn out to be the single most important on"
Ascendant? Compared to TV? Compared to the internet? Compared to phones? To text messages?
"What the fuck, man. You seriously had no teacher who was inspired by some piece of literature that they wanted to share? Do you really think that, say, teachers of literature who were inspired by a book are all failed writers? Seriously, wtf.
"
There is a difference between becoming a teacher, and wanting to share some great literature, and being motivated to become a teacher by great literature. Nowhere did I state that all teachers are failed writers. Seriously, WTF.
"And again: I don't have problems with the genre itself. I'm not attacking "gaming", that's a retarded idea and a strawman"
And again: nowhere did I say that you are attacking gaming. It isn't me attacking strawman. It is you. I reply directly to your points.
"I have no idea how this is relevant to what I said. Racism and sexism is not rare at all, and almost all forms of media are part of that. And no, it's very often not acting.
"
The relevance is that:
one, some people like to troll. Some people like to say things deliberately to provoke reactions, which is related to,
two. behaviour you see online, whether on an internet forum, or among a group of teenaged gamers, is not necessarily a representative sample.
three, the racism and sexism you see among some teenaged gamers might not be all that different from the racism and sexism of the population as a whole, ie it IS representative of the entire population. (this contradicts 2)
In other words, you do not know.
"I said we need more research and discussion on this topic, and mentioned a *fact* (that children and teenagers spend over 7 hours per day on average in front of screen media) that could be worrying. I mean, maybe I'm just too old or stupid or whatever, but I can't just accept the argument that because this "may be" good and the people doing it "may be" happy people, so we should just leave everything as it is.
"
Sure. And until there is more research, the only conclusion can be: DO NOT KNOW. Not, jumping to conclusions about negative effects and unhappy people.
"I never said introspection could only be negative. But you do have to have some connection with reality, and people playing a part in the same make believe world is not a connection with reality.
"
What the heck is reality? People watch TV, fictional TV, they watch sport (which has little to no actual relevance on their real lives), they listen to (recorded) music. Etc. In the past, before TV, plays, were popular.
"Please understand that I have no problem with these people (being very much one of them). I don't want to stop them (or myself) from getting some fun out of life in a virtual world that's often more free and humane than reality. My point is the fact that people have to resort to these things in such enormous masses, because there's no alternative in the real world, may be a sign of a huge social problem.
"
As I have repeated a few times, nowhere do I claim that you want to stop anyone. My point is this: it MAY BE a sign of a social problem. OTOH, it might NOT be. My point is that no one knows. Do not know, more research needed, should not default to negative. You appear to be assuming the negative position, even though you state that there should be more research. I tend to be more sceptical of default negative positions to societal change.
"Ascendant? Compared to TV? Compared to the internet? Compared to phones? To text messages?"
It's becoming more and more popular, and its growth is probably higher than TV's. But these comparisons you keep making are bullshit anyway. We're talking about video games. Nowhere do I say that there aren't other issues - in fact, I'm saying we need to see video games as part (but a large part) of a complex of problems with the "communication" industries.
"There is a difference between becoming a teacher, and wanting to share some great literature, and being motivated to become a teacher by great literature. Nowhere did I state that all teachers are failed writers. Seriously, WTF."
You said that books only inspire people to be writers etc, which means that if you're inspired by a book but don't become a writer but a teacher, you're a failed teacher. So yeah, actually you did imply that all teachers who were inspired by a book (NOT all teachers, because that was NOT what I said at all) were failed writers. Not directly, but that's the obvious implication of what you said (and it's also a commonplace idiocy: "those who can, do, those who can't, teach").
"And again: nowhere did I say that you are attacking gaming. It isn't me attacking strawman. It is you. I reply directly to your points. "
The way you reply almost always boils down to the typical defensive argument that because we do not know the harm for sure, we should not do anything about it. It's not a proper argument, and this is why we're going in circles.
"Sure. And until there is more research, the only conclusion can be: DO NOT KNOW. Not, jumping to conclusions about negative effects and unhappy people. "
Wrong. The conclusion has to be that we have to be careful with stuff this powerful. Not that because we don't know anything about the real effects, we can pretend it's all awesome. Which is what is actually happening right now.
"What the heck is reality? People watch TV, fictional TV, they watch sport (which has little to no actual relevance on their real lives), they listen to (recorded) music. Etc. In the past, before TV, plays, were popular. "
What is reality? Well, stuff that influences your life. Stuff that turns people into wage slaves, that destroys environment, steals the results of your work, that denies you knowledge, and that prohibits you from making decisions that influence your own life. Not virtual worlds where you can pretend to be happy.
"As I have repeated a few times, nowhere do I claim that you want to stop anyone. My point is this: it MAY BE a sign of a social problem. OTOH, it might NOT be. My point is that no one knows. Do not know, more research needed, should not default to negative. You appear to be assuming the negative position, even though you state that there should be more research. I tend to be more sceptical of default negative positions to societal change."
But if it may be a social problem, which is something that a lot of people actually do agree on, is supported by a very large amount of research and appears to be absolutely common sense to a large number of educators, we need to be careful, and we are not. Your apparent position is absolutely irrational: you say that we can use (and even overuse) something we don't know shit about until we gain the required knowledge of whether its harmful (which btw we do have to a pretty reasonable extent).
".. ZX Spectrum.."
ZX 81 here. Cassette tape storage and a 16k ram pack. Output to TV. Loved it. Moved up to a Commodore 64 later. Best Commodore game ever: Elite. Space shooter/trader in a HUGE universe. Wire frame graphics. Haven't been quite as involved with any game since.
"ZX 81 here"
:-D nice
Elite is a legend. It was one of the best games I've ever played too (was originally a BBC Micro game I think, but had loads of ports, I played it on the Spectrum). Did you know that the universe, all the planets, their names, the prices, everything was actually procedurally generated? Too awesome.
"Did you know that the universe, all the planets, their names, the prices, everything was actually procedurally generated?"
No, I didn't. I actually spoke to one of the game designers when they sold the game in the U.S. - the first release of the game in the U.S. had a security scheme where you had to input information from the manual, but it always asked the same question because they hadn't realized that on the Commodore 64 you had to seed the random number generator before you used it.
Awesome game indeed.
One of my favorite parts of Elite was where they did the takeoff on the StarTrek "Trouble with Tribbles" episode. I also enjoyed refueling by skimming suns, something which has been picked up by the current Sci-Fi series, "Stargate Universe."
And consider what I saw last night (on, gasp!, TV) We can now look forward to almost totally submersible virtual reality some are small and look like toys and blocks that kids can take with them everywhere. Some are large enough for you to get inside of so you can feel the effects of the shots you take and you can blow away the others in a fully sensitized 360 degree setting. The children can make a magical, and exciting virtual reality for themselves everywhere they go. No need any longer to be connected to the real world at all. I can't imagine just what this will do to the children but it can't be good. We seem to be living in a time of convergence, where every awful thing possible is getting stronger and stronger. The species seems to be ready for self-immolation.
It's not just children who are being sucked into the the "magical and exciting virtual reality." Commercials for an internet service provider (I won't name names) shows people having more fun on line than I think it's actually possible to have doing anything. Evidently for these folks, the excitement of being able to "download movies fast" is mind-blowingly wonderful.
If the electric grid goes down, and it can, and electricity stops even for more than a few hours, the magical mystery tour will be unable to continue and people will be thrown back into unaugmented physical reality. There have already been some tests done at colleges where young adults are deprived of net access and multitasking and they completely freak out as if part of their very selves had been removed.
The majority of gamers are NOT children. The gaming industry generally targets people in their 20s-40s: people with disposable income and a bit of free time. Children have free time, but little disposable income.
Why do you assume it can't be good? You state that you have no idea what this will do. Yet, it immediately assume that it cannot be good.
It's easy: if it was all about the technology, and nothing else, with no economical and social structures behind it, it could be a question, because the technology itself is of course to some extent neutral. It could, theoretically, be used for good and bad. But if you look at how this kind of stuff is actually used in real society historically, you'll have to have doubts, or rather, you'll be able to guess pretty well what the effects will be.
Again, it's not about the technology itself (mainly, although the way it develops is indeed partly socially determined), but the way it's used. For example, you could, in theory, use the internet for distributed democratic decisionmaking, which is something that almost everyone I knew thought of immediately when they learned of the Internet. Or you could use it to sell stuff. Or go back to industrial automation: you could use it to give more control over production and more free time to workers - or you could use it to take away their authority over the production process and reduce them into cogs and reduce their cost (pay) and *decrease* their free time by devaluing their work and thus forcing them to work more. Or basically any mass communication media. And the list could go on and on and on.
People say technology is "amoral" (sometimes they use it for people, but people are not "amoral", they're immoral), and to some extent, to the extent that it depends on reality, it is. But there are always human choices not just in design but in its use and the structures it's integrated into. So it's actually pretty logical, if you look at the historical choices, to think they're not going to be used in ways that increase human happiness etc.
I assume it can't be good because children need to understand the real world, how to manipulate it and how to survive in it with its billions of billions of interactions per second, with its randomness and variety. No matter how clever or virtual the game gets, it is still less than the real deal. Therefore we are failing to teach the children what the real world is, what it requires and as a consequence not giving the children a chance to know real relationships, real nature, real experiences in order to hone their intelligence, analytical skills and reflexes to function in the real world.
Already, I see kids and adults walking into things and tripping while they are walking on the streets with their eyes glued to the console. How will they learn to be observant and alert human beings? How will they learn to care about others if no one cares for them except their game console? How will they learn to ask questions when the only answers are already determined by a limited sub-set of reality? So yes, I do assume it cannot be good.
The problem with this argument is that sadly, the virtual world is becoming for more and more people the real world, and the real world is starting to behave in more and more video game-like fashion :-/ To an extent, there's no "real world" any more. You live in a system that separates you from a lot of aspects of reality, from production and self-sustenance to entertainment and education. Most people don't do productive work, and a lot of the work the service sector does would better be left undone. Money as a value often completely opposes real life values, even in the real economy. You take a car to work, by which you may do more harm than what your work's worth, which can be in itself negative, destructive. The way you work is more and more designed centrally, you have less and less individual authority over your own work and your own time. So all aspects and prospects of life are gradually closed into a self-made, self-centered virtual world. Video games are actually to an extent a reflection this new reality. So maybe they can teach you better to cope with this fake reality than real life :-)
"I assume it can't be good because children need to understand the real world, how to manipulate it and how to survive in it with its billions of billions of interactions per second, with its randomness and variety"
What is the real world? A world involving humans? The most poular games tend to be games involving other humans Random and variable humans.
"How will they learn to care about others if no one cares for them except their game console?"
By interacting with other humans, via their game console. The most popular games tend to be games involving other humans. The game, the game console, is simply a framework, similar to say, a telephone, for humans to interact with each other.
" How will they learn to ask questions when the only answers are already determined by a limited sub-set of reality"
By interacting with other human gamers. The most popular games tend to be games involving other humans. Humans who tend to get bored with a limtied sub-set of reality pretty fast, and want to be able to add their own perceptions of reality onto the game.
"What is the real world? A world involving humans? The most poular games tend to be games involving other humans Random and variable humans."
In a very large number of cases, the way you interact with humans is by competing with them or killing them. The social stuff is often an aside or a tool of organisation for competition or killing.
"By interacting with other humans, via their game console. The most popular games tend to be games involving other humans. The game, the game console, is simply a framework, similar to say, a telephone, for humans to interact with each other. "
If you make such a claim, you have to show more than just the theoretical possibility, you also have to show that this actually happens in a significant number of cases. The problem is that games, not the generic underlying technological foundation that often does allow simple communications independent of the game's setting and purpose, but the game mechanics themselves, are very often just about competition and killing others. There are exceptions of course.
"By interacting with other human gamers. The most popular games tend to be games involving other humans. Humans who tend to get bored with a limtied sub-set of reality pretty fast, and want to be able to add their own perceptions of reality onto the game."
Look at the actual interactions and their effects. The way that a game actually frames human interactions is also very important. You interact one way in an online flight sim where you play an air traffic controller, and in another way in a shooter, and what you learn about human interactions depends on this a lot. The overwhelming majority of games do not do a good job of this at all, and the "people skills" you acquire through them are worthless or even negative in real life.
"In a very large number of cases, the way you interact with humans is by competing with them or killing them. The social stuff is often an aside or a tool of organisation for competition or killing.
"
Not really true. A fair number of people get into online gaming for the social stuff (which includes everything from making friends, to flirting, to online sex). Killing pixels controlled by lines of code gets pretty boring pretty fast.
"If you make such a claim, you have to show more than just the theoretical possibility, you also have to show that this actually happens in a significant number of cases. The problem is that games, not the generic underlying technological foundation that often does allow simple communications independent of the game's setting and purpose, but the game mechanics themselves, are very often just about competition and killing others. There are exceptions of course.
"
The game mechanics might be about competition and killing others, or killing pixels controlled by lines of code. But, that does not mean you have to exactly what the game mechanics dictate. You seriously understimate humans, if you think that all they do with technology is to use it exactly as designed by the designers.
"Look at the actual interactions and their effects. The way that a game actually frames human interactions is also very important. You interact one way in an online flight sim where you play an air traffic controller, and in another way in a shooter, and what you learn about human interactions depends on this a lot. The overwhelming majority of games do not do a good job of this at all, and the "people skills" you acquire through them are worthless or even negative in real life.
.."
Not necessarily. Let's say you are playing a game, with some people. Not an online game. A pen and paper game. A board game. Are your interactions with your fellow players dictated entirely by the game mechanics? Of course not. It isn't dissimlar with online games.
"Not really true. A fair number of people get into online gaming for the social stuff (which includes everything from making friends, to flirting, to online sex)."
This doesn't even contradict my statement in any way. In a lot of cases, the basic gaming-type interaction between people is killing each other, that's a fact. In fact, if you ignore the pure social interactions, and just look at interactions within game mechanics, it's probably the most important type of interaction.
" Killing pixels controlled by lines of code gets pretty boring pretty fast."
Now this is straight out bullshit that you can't pretend to be serious about. Killing and violence has always been super popular in games and shows no signs of becoming less important.
"The game mechanics might be about competition and killing others, or killing pixels controlled by lines of code. But, that does not mean you have to exactly what the game mechanics dictate. You seriously understimate humans, if you think that all they do with technology is to use it exactly as designed by the designers."
What does this mean? That a significant ratio of people playing Black Ops are somehow subverting the game? What are you talking about?
"Not necessarily. Let's say you are playing a game, with some people. Not an online game. A pen and paper game. A board game. Are your interactions with your fellow players dictated entirely by the game mechanics? Of course not. It isn't dissimlar with online games."
Please try to understand this very simple thing: *possibility* is not the same as reality. Of course it's possible for games to be nice. For example, it is possible for technology to decrease the total amount of human work "consumed" by a society - it just so happens that the actual real world effects are the opposite.
"This doesn't even contradict my statement in any way. In a lot of cases, the basic gaming-type interaction between people is killing each other, that's a fact. In fact, if you ignore the pure social interactions, and just look at interactions within game mechanics, it's probably the most important type of interaction.
"
You cannot ignore the social interactions, since they occur.
"Now this is straight out bullshit that you can't pretend to be serious about. Killing and violence has always been super popular in games and shows no signs of becoming less important.
"
No it isn't. If killing and violence were the main attraction, why kill with friends? Why do people prefer to do it with friends, instead of just by their lonesone? Because, killing pixels controlled by lines of code gets pretty boring pretty fast: back in the day, this pretty much the only choice avalaible, so that was what people did, since they had no other options. Nowdays, now that many games are networkable, most people prefer to do their killing with friends. If killing were the main attraction, why would doing it with other humans be more preferable to doing it alone?
If killing were the main attraction, why do people, who have money, who play WoW, sometimes try to buy powerful characters that other people, who do not have the money, have built up? Precisely because killing endless numbers of pixels controlled by lines of code gets pretty boring pretty damn fast, unless the code is really well written (which it never is, due to time and monetary constraints)
"What does this mean? That a significant ratio of people playing Black Ops are somehow subverting the game? What are you talking about?
"
It means that what they do is not only dictated by game mechanics, not only dictated by programmers. It is dictated by game mechanics, but not only by game mechanics.
"Please try to understand this very simple thing: *possibility* is not the same as reality. Of course it's possible for games to be nice. For example, it is possible for technology to decrease the total amount of human work "consumed" by a society - it just so happens that the actual real world effects are the opposite.
.."
Please try to understamd this very simple thing: possibility is not the same as reality, but your reality might diverge from the reality of other people. While it might be true for your reality that people only use technology in exactly the way dictated by the creators of that technology,. it might not be true for the reality of other people. In fact, that is one reason why the actual real world effects that you decry, ie technology increasing the total amount of human work "consumed" by a society, happens. Because people find all kinds of different ways to use a particular technology, that had nothing to do with the designer's intentions.
"You cannot ignore the social interactions, since they occur."
I'm not even ignoring it. I'm making a statement: the main "gaming type" interaction, that's intrinsic to the game, a part of the game's particular mechanics (unlike chatting, which is a generic mechanic applicable to all games), is killing. I mean, no idea why you want to pretend that this is not an important thing.
"No it isn't. If killing and violence were the main attraction, why kill with friends? Why do people prefer to do it with friends, instead of just by their lonesone? Because, killing pixels controlled by lines of code gets pretty boring pretty fast: back in the day, this pretty much the only choice avalaible, so that was what people did, since they had no other options. Nowdays, now that many games are networkable, most people prefer to do their killing with friends. If killing were the main attraction, why would doing it with other humans be more preferable to doing it alone? "
You're really bullshitting now. Loads of people love killing pixels on their own. One of the reasons people like to play against other people is that it's more *interesting* to play against entities that pose a reasonable challenge. And of course there are loads of other answers to the non-argument you made: for example, people seem to prefer to do *almost everything* with other people, from sports to racism, but doing something together with others has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to WHAT they're actually doing. If you do learning together, it's nice. If you join a group to lynch people, it's bad. But I think these are all trivialities, why are we even discussing these things? All I did was observe that killing as a game mechanic is extremely common and popular, and you can't seriously be arguing about this if you play games.
"It means that what they do is not only dictated by game mechanics, not only dictated by programmers. It is dictated by game mechanics, but not only by game mechanics."
This is the same as all your arguments: we do not know what's happening so let's ignore the clear stuff and talk about what *might* be happening under the surface.
"Please try to understamd this very simple thing: possibility is not the same as reality, but your reality might diverge from the reality of other people. While it might be true for your reality that people only use technology in exactly the way dictated by the creators of that technology,. it might not be true for the reality of other people. In fact, that is one reason why the actual real world effects that you decry, ie technology increasing the total amount of human work "consumed" by a society, happens. Because people find all kinds of different ways to use a particular technology, that had nothing to do with the designer's intentions."
Some people do, of course. But the gaming industry (and the media industries in general) spends a lot of money on proprietary research about the actual real effects of games (and other media) on people, so they do actually know a lot about how to design games to achieve their own particular goals, and it has the resources and knowledge to avoid this subversion of games as much as possible. This is actually very visible in modern games.
I agree with you 4thefuture. And I think that many developmental psychologists like Piaget and Vygotsky would as well. They found that children learn best by integrating body, mind, hand and eye in performing challenging tasks. I personally think that adults benefit from that as well.
Disembodied experience leaves out so much, all the bodily experiences that real sports and games include. When dealing with real people, you get exercise, read body language and facial expressions more complex and unpredictable than those that can be programmed into a computer game. You understand your physical limits for speed and pain, you coordinate mind and hand. You get hungry and thirsty. You breathe differently. You see the real effects of collisions and injuries. There is a potential for empathy, although that is discouraged in many competitive sports. You make real friends with whom you can have all kinds of interactions.
Computer games are OK within limits. Problem is they are designed to be addictive and become a time-consuming escape from the stressful (and joyful) world. The South Park episode about "World of Warcraft" describes the physical decay and social isolation that comes from excessive computer gaming.
http://www.rodostube.gr/video/57bce0a1b547d34/south-park-world-of-warcraft
What I hate is when I see a young father sitting on a bench playing his computer game and ignoring his baby or children. The baby might as well be alone. What a loss.
In the future you will be able to access, from your home, more information than a million encyclopedias. You will be able to take classes at home and communicate and play games with people world-wide, instantaneously, News, books and movies will all be available to you, at home, whenever you want them.
And, when you have all this, you will become more isolated and less educated.
The problem with utopia is there are people in it.
"In the future you will be able to access, from your home, more information than a million encyclopedias. You will be able to take classes at home and communicate and play games with people world-wide, instantaneously, News, books and movies will all be available to you, at home, whenever you want them."
That's the promise. But in reality, you won't have access to the important day-to-day information that helps you think about the economy and society more deeply and realistically: you won't be able to access detailed information on a lot of markets; you won't have free and unlimited access to research results; you won't be able to easily reuse and transform "intellectual property" owned by corporations. And despite all results of intellectual work costing an arm and a leg, the actual creators won't be able to live off their own products unless they sell themselves to a concentration of power that does nothing but leeches off people's work and exploits them.
"But in reality, you won't have access to the important day-to-day information that helps you think about the economy and society more deeply and realistically"
You will. You just won't be spoonfed it.
" you won't have free and unlimited access to research results"
Compared to 30 years ago? 25 years ago? 30 years ago, how easy was it for someone who did to access research articles, nevermind the results themselves, unless they themselves worked in that particular field?
"you won't be able to easily reuse and transform "intellectual property" owned by corporations. And despite all results of intellectual work costing an arm and a leg, the actual creators won't be able to live off their own products unless they sell themselves to a concentration of power that does nothing but leeches off people's work and exploits them.
.."
Maybe. At least in music, it increasingly looks like the future, for musicians, is in live performance, not making studio recordings (given the ease of making lossless copies of music). At least in music, it increasingly looks like the corporations are pissing in the wind when it comes to IP.
"You will. You just won't be spoonfed it. "
Again, you're pretending that theoretical access, that you're not absolutely restricted from access, is the same as real access. If everything is telling you A and the truth is in fact B, even if you might be able to find out that A is not real, you still have to invest a lot of time and effort, and noone will believe you. And this happens, you know, all the time, from the wars, to deficit, to ethanol or biomass as green energy etc etc etc. The list is just infinite.
"Compared to 30 years ago? 25 years ago? 30 years ago, how easy was it for someone who did to access research articles, nevermind the results themselves, unless they themselves worked in that particular field? "
Technical access becomes easier, but other stuff (for example, having to pay a lot of money for articles, or access to business information and restrictions of reuse in your own work) goes in the opposite direction.
"Maybe. At least in music, it increasingly looks like the future, for musicians, is in live performance, not making studio recordings (given the ease of making lossless copies of music). At least in music, it increasingly looks like the corporations are pissing in the wind when it comes to IP."
Read up on this, man. End producers (musicians, video game developers, writers, journalists, even academic workers and researchers) are increasingly exploited and are expected to produce stuff for free, and corporations are exploiting them very well thank you. Maybe not the same old record labels or publishers, maybe it's Apple, the Huffington Post, Google etc and not Universal or the NYT or whatever, but the corporate structure in general is doing pretty well wrt this issue. That there's some infighting and companies that can't "adapt" are doing worse doesn't mean shit.
Has Ann Simonton played video games? Is she aware that while male gamers are still a majority among gamers, the proportion of male gamers to female gamers is about 55:45?
There are far more games than just shooting games or war games.
The most popular things are phone games and the Facebook crap. They may not be as manipulative and propagandistic than MW, but as game mechanics go, they're often a lot worse and make WoW look like the paragon of ethical game design. They're designed, very well btw, for exploiting people and mostly to make them pay real money for virtual crap. They're often lacking any kind of proper gameplay and are just straight out timewasters (cf Farmville). Ian Bogost has an excellent classic article on this ( http://www.bogost.com/blog/cow_clicker_1.shtml )
So, more and more gaming time is indeed spent with what are called "casual games", which covers more of women and of course older people too, but the problem with these games shifts from violence and aggression to insidious, exploitative, manipulative, addictive game mechanics. Facebook gaming is the newest thing in this regard, but gaming has been expanding for decades now, starting in force with the Playstation/PS2 stuff, brought to the biggest success in the traditional (console) market with the new casual Nintendo games (starting with the DS, Brain Training and Nintendogs etc), and of course the entire traditional market is now under the influence of this casual wave (with Microsoft's Kinect and the Playstation Move); but the Apple appstore model is also excellent for these games. In some ways these games, and the models behind them, are imo even worse, more exploitative and manipulative, and often in direct money terms, than traditional games :-/
But of course this does not mean in any way, and has no actual relevance to what the article was talking about. The current largest franchise in the American video game industry is in fact Modern Warfare, and there's no question about the military using games for recruitment and the general propaganda effect of these games. That gaming extends to a more diverse and larger audience now has no relevance to this fact imo. I don't agree with blaming the medium at all, but we must be very critical of the way the medium is used, especially because it's so incredibly (and obviously) powerful.
When I talk about games and gaming, I'm not referring to phone games used to waste time while you are waiting for public transport, or facebook games played while you should be working / studying. I'm referring to games bought / installed / subscribed to, seriously played.
"They're designed, very well btw, for exploiting people and mostly to make them pay real money for virtual crap. They're often lacking any kind of proper gameplay and are just straight out timewasters "
Oh I agree.
"So, more and more gaming time is indeed spent with what are called "casual games", which covers more of women and of course older people too, but the problem with these games shifts from violence and aggression to insidious, exploitative, manipulative, addictive game mechanics"
I think you are underestimating the number of serious women, and older (ie not a testosterone poisoned teenager) gamers, and overestimating the number of serious (testosterone poisoned) teenaged gamers. IME, RPGs attact a lot of women and older gamers.
"of course the entire traditional market is now under the influence of this casual wave (with Microsoft's Kinect and the Playstation Move"
I'm going to go off on a tangent, here, but MS's Kinect does actually have pedagogical / knowledge uses. It is being used, by among others, biomechanicists and sports scientists to try to do (human) movement / biomechanical analysis (because it is cheap, relative to the specialised equipment normally used; of course its cheapness does come with flaws, the slow frame rate limits what can be done with it)
" The current largest franchise in the American video game industry is in fact Modern Warfare, and there's no question about the military using games for recruitment and the general propaganda effect of these games. That gaming extends to a more diverse and larger audience now has no relevance to this fact imo. I don't agree with blaming the medium at all, but we must be very critical of the way the medium is used, especially because it's so incredibly (and obviously) powerful.
.."
Well yeah, I agree with this. We shold certainly be critical about how gaming is used to propagandise war. But, this is an issue that pervades throughout not just gaming, but much of popular entertainment, and even society. War propaganda occurs in TV / movies, it occurs in sports, it occurs in news, in how reporters report. Anything with mass popularity, that has mass coverage has been permeated by war propaganda.
My comlaint with the article is that it is too shallowly written. Someone like you would have written a better one.
"When I talk about games and gaming, I'm not referring to phone games used to waste time while you are waiting for public transport, or facebook games played while you should be working / studying. I'm referring to games bought / installed / subscribed to, seriously played."
Well, I don't really care about that difference, because I'm focusing on stuff that has a strong pedagogical (or usually anti-pedagogical) effect, and is aimed at children and teenagers. I think excluding phone games and FB stuff would be arbitrary, because lots of children and teenagers are playing those games. And I'm focusing on young people because I care about them more :-)
"I think you are underestimating the number of serious women, and older (ie not a testosterone poisoned teenager) gamers, and overestimating the number of serious (testosterone poisoned) teenaged gamers. "
I'm pretty interested in the industry side too, so I'm quite reliant on sales numbers. Which BTW is another very interesting question, seeing how the "free market" makes it almost impossible for people to know the state of the industry, and actually impossible to share that knowledge and discuss it freely. (In 2010, the NPD group stopped publishing the small amount of monthly sales data they'd allowed GAF to use previously; and this March, they prohibited everyone who's buying their reports to republish the numbers in them.)
"IME, RPGs attact a lot of women and older gamers. "
MMOs (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about, because traditional RPG sales are really not significant at all) are a different type of crap. They don't have the same issues, and they're not as directly offensive though.
"I'm going to go off on a tangent, here, but MS's Kinect does actually have pedagogical / knowledge uses. It is being used, by among others, biomechanicists and sports scientists to try to do (human) movement / biomechanical analysis (because it is cheap, relative to the specialised equipment normally used; of course its cheapness does come with flaws, the slow frame rate limits what can be done with it) "
This is said about every single new gaming product, and it always has a really small seed of truth, but it's mostly completely irrelevant on a larger scale. It's like claiming that video games can't have bad effects because surgeons use them to develop their hand eye coordination. This is just marketing I can't take seriously. Certainly not outright false
"Well yeah, I agree with this. We shold certainly be critical about how gaming is used to propagandise war. But, this is an issue that pervades throughout not just gaming, but much of popular entertainment, and even society. War propaganda occurs in TV / movies, it occurs in sports, it occurs in news, in how reporters report. Anything with mass popularity, that has mass coverage has been permeated by war propaganda. "
I absolutely agree with this, but still: I like video games and don't like TV so I'm focusing on games :-) But of course I don't ignore the probles with TV etc either. Also, in some respects, video games can be worse: America's Army is supposed to be the best recruiting tool in a long time, or ever, and I just can't be happy about that.
"Well, I don't really care about that difference, because I'm focusing on stuff that has a strong pedagogical (or usually anti-pedagogical) effect, and is aimed at children and teenagers. I think excluding phone games and FB stuff would be arbitrary, because lots of children and teenagers are playing those games. And I'm focusing on young people because I care about them more :-)
"
You could say the same about any mass entertainment that is aimed at teenagers.
"This is said about every single new gaming product, and it always has a really small seed of truth, but it's mostly completely irrelevant on a larger scale. It's like claiming that video games can't have bad effects because surgeons use them to develop their hand eye coordination. This is just marketing I can't take seriously. Certainly not outright false
"
Who determines whether this is irrelevant? Someone who has suffered an injury as a result of an accident, or maybe a stroke, who benefits from biomechanical analysis? And I'm not making claims about surgeons and hand eye coordination, just pointing out something interesting about the Kinect.
"I absolutely agree with this, but still: I like video games and don't like TV so I'm focusing on games :-) But of course I don't ignore the probles with TV etc either. Also, in some respects, video games can be worse: America's Army is supposed to be the best recruiting tool in a long time, or ever, and I just can't be happy about that.
..
Fair enough.
"You could say the same about any mass entertainment that is aimed at teenagers."
And I am saying that all the time. But in this case, I am focusing on games.
"Who determines whether this is irrelevant? Someone who has suffered an injury as a result of an accident, or maybe a stroke, who benefits from biomechanical analysis? And I'm not making claims about surgeons and hand eye coordination, just pointing out something interesting about the Kinect. "
And I'm just pointing out that this is irrelevant, compared to the suspected negative effects, not just of video games, or video gaming as a medium, but of how the video game industry works right now. It's irrelevant and it's downright stupid to point at the possible positive health effects of Kinect in the context of the American health system.
Please stop using the following two types of non-arguments:
- "It's not just gaming": But we're talking about gaming, and it's important, and that there are other forms of media where these issues might be even stronger (although I don't think this is really true for a lot of issues) doesn't in any way mean that they're not important in games. It's the same as if you said "why are we talking about video games now when children are dying of hunger". Not a real argument.
- "We don't know": Yep, we don't know, and if we don't know, we should *minimise the risks*, do research and discuss real issues, and make decisions that could effect the development of tens (hundreds) of millions of children and not use, overuse and abuse stuff as much as possible just to gain money. Or do you disagree with this?
Why do so many self-styled "progressives" want to censor stuff?
Sheesh, it is rather simple. Don't buy these games, and don't buy them for your kids if you don't like them.
First, why do so many self-styled "freedom of speech" advocates immediately and without any basis pretend that people who criticise an entertainment product want to censor them? Any single time I say anything critical about gaming and the games industry, there will be a few people who immediately start talking about "censorship", even if there's nothing whatsoever in my posts (or anyone else's) about it.
If you pull strawmen out of your ass, and put words into people's mouth and attribute them intentions, you're not helping free speech.
With this out of the way, it's also completly obvious that a lot of (probably most) video games aren't even in the free speech category. They're corporate products that do not want to engage in dialogue, have nothing to do with critical thinking and democratic engagement, but just the opposite: their effect is in fact stifling free speech and discussion, not a part of it. Mass produced games that spread lies and propaganda and are engineered based on focus groups etc are not part of free speech. It's the same as, say, any politician, who, with the help of a large amount of knowledge and money, engineer their speeches not to reflect their own opinions and the future policies, but what people want to hear and what makes them vote for them. It's a perversion - because everything can be perverted, even speech. It can be used as a tool for manipulation, to achieve a psychological state, to elicit a particular response. If you believe that free speech (or the free market or science or basically anything) is immune to this, that you can have freedom of thought without actual critical thought and just by believing that somehow bringing everything under the universal category of "free speech" will produce the "best" results or the "freest" society, well, you're not very smart. There's no social mechanism that is infallible and cannot be perverted. The concept of of corporate freedom of speech is such a perversion - and it's not exactly difficult to see why.
Free speech should mostly be a right for people (who often have no other rights) - not a right for large centers of power to help them control people more efficiently. Free speech is about Bradley Manning and Wikileaks, about people or grassroots, non-market organisations criticising real power, not about the ability of EA and Activision to sell people (most importantly children) more entertainment. Corporations simply should not have the same free speech rights as individuals, because always inevitably use it for their ultimate end: to enhance profits, and not for anything else.
And finally, the idea that "individual responsibility", which you're also ultimately relying on, can somehow override and win against and is even a valid (and the only valid) response to social trends supported and enhanced by coordinated effort of centres of power, is a bit silly. You have companies investing millions of dollars in psychology research to turn kids into consumers, and tens of billions of dollars on the actual marketing efforts towards children, which permeates even schools to an extent, while at the same time defunding public education and eliminating the entire issue from mainstream discussion and replacing it with an absolutely irrelevant and retarded "freedom of speech" issue.
"Freedom of speech" is bullshit and irrelevant when you're talking about products supported by hundred million dollar marketing campaigns http://www.industrygamers.com/news/battlefield-3-to-take-down-call-of-duty-with-over-100-million-in-marketing/
Where's "free speech" here? Whose speech? And whose freedom is this about? How difficult is it to see that this is just completely fucked up? I mean, are you seriously pretending that inundating kids with high tech and high volume advertising and propaganda is good for free speech? Or can you show me the games and entertainment products that show alternative points of view and are supported by financial power at least on the same order of magnitude, or just one or two below?
Still, censorship is bullshit. I'm not saying the products themselves should be changed. You should be able to have your fill of jingoist, sexist, racist crap if you want, and also fill up your kid with it too. But PR and marketing should be a lot more limited, and some of the most insidious types of marketing (the marketing version of astroturfing which is extremely common on games forums) should be illegal and in general, all forms of marketing and advertising should be tightly regulated. And this makes sense, even (especially) if you believe in markets too.
"With this out of the way, it's also completly obvious that a lot of (probably most) video games aren't even in the free speech category. They're corporate products that do not want to engage in dialogue, have nothing to do with critical thinking and democratic engagement, but just the opposite: their effect is in fact stifling free speech and discussion, not a part of it."
Just like many movies.
I think the rating system for games should be enforced (like movies).
It is somewhat enforced. In 2001, there was an FTC report about marketing violent video games to children, which is repeated yearly since then iirc, and the conclusion is that retailers are now enforcing ratings a lot more reliably (although far from completely) than they used to, and there aren't as many issues in TV based advertising, but of course this has much less relevance now because so much marketing and sales is based on the web now, which is outside the scope of this regulation.
But if you manage to convince parents that there's no possible harm, and if parents are themselves huge media consumers, which they increasingly are, ratings are not really a satisfactory solution. A limit on advertising would be very important, but that probably cannot happen without deep changes in the structure of the economy.
While there are many games filled with vile pro-imperialist propaganda, which should be boycotted, I could not care any less about "violence" in games. I am an anti-imperialist, not a pacifist. Kids killing orcs and goblins in video games did not cause the illegal invasion of Iraq. Wall Street's drive for global domination did. Bashing all video games will simply alienate you from just about everyone under the age of 60.
I kind of agree with this (although there are studies that show that overconsumption, especially as a very young child, of violent entertainment statistically leads to antisocial behaviour...but frankly, I don't think anything can help people who give their 2 year old children access to lots of violent entertainment, so I think of this more as a fringe issue), but I'd like to have a lot more research into the effects on attention spans of children of consumption of screen media (games, TV, social networking stuff etc), and a lot more pedagogically oriented research on the effects of high technology based media in general.