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Ending Bush's Big Lie on Guantánamo
The Obama administration has fallen into the trap of demonising innocent Guantánamo detainees as dangerous terrorists
During the Bush administration's "war on terror", it was important to dehumanise the men held at Guantánamo, to give life to the myth that the prison held "the worst of the worst" terrorists, picked up on the battlefields of Afghanistan.
This was not true, as reports over the years have demonstrated. A former military interrogator in Afghanistan, writing under the pseudonym Chris Mackey, explained in his book The Interrogators that there was no screening process in place, and that every Arab who came into US custody, by whatever method, had to be transferred to Guantánamo.
Moreover, in 2006, an analysis of the Pentagon's own allegations against 517 prisoners (compiled after 200 men and boys had already been released), and conducted by researchers at the Seton Hall Law School in New Jersey, found that 86% were captured by the Northern Alliance or Pakistani forces, 55% were not determined to have committed any hostile acts against the US or its allies, and only 8% were alleged to have had any kind of affiliation with al-Qaida.
In addition, around half the prisoners were not captured in Afghanistan, but were either seized in Pakistan, or crossing the border from Afghanistan to Pakistan. And although many of the men were foot soldiers for the Taliban, who had been involved in the longstanding civil war against the Northern Alliance, which had begun many years before the 9/11 attacks, others were missionaries, humanitarian aid workers or economic migrants. In all, only 33 of the remaining 174 prisoners have been recommended for trial by President Obama's inter-agency Guantánamo review task force, which reviewed all the cases in 2009.
As the prison at Guantánamo prepares to start its 10th year of operations (on 11 January), and as I begin a week of events in New York and Washington, DC to raise awareness of the remaining prisoners, these men are still, for the most part, as dehumanised as they were under President Bush.
Part of the attempt to raise awareness involves showing the documentary film, "Outside the Law: Stories from Guantánamo", which I co-directed with filmmaker Polly Nash, and which features compelling and emotional testimony from former Guantánamo prisoners Omar Deghayes and Moazzam Begg, both seized in 2002 from the homes where they were living in Pakistan, many hundreds of miles from the battlefields of Afghanistan, and sent to Guantánamo.
Last year, I travelled around the UK with Omar Deghayes, showing the film to audiences of students and activists who were grateful for the opportunity to meet Omar, after listening to his harrowing descriptions of how he was mistreated, and how the British security services colluded in his abuse. But when I travel to the US, I am not allowed to visit with Omar, or with Moazzam, or with any other cleared prisoner. Audiences in the United States are also moved by Omar's testimony, when they have the opportunity to see it, but it would have a much greater impact if they were able to meet a former prisoner in person.
Sadly, the Obama administration is largely to blame for this state of affairs. In early 2009, White House Counsel Greg Craig was close to finalising a plan to rehouse a handful of cleared prisoners who could not be repatriated safely. These men were the Uighurs, Muslims from China's Xinjiang province, seized by mistake, who had won their habeas corpus petition in a US court in October 2008, and their presence in the US would have done more to destroy the Bush administration's enduring lies than any other gesture.
However, when Republicans got wind of it, and reacted with unjustifiable outrage, Obama quashed the plan, making it difficult for the US to find third countries prepared to take cleared prisoners who could not be repatriated, and contributing to the paralysis in which Obama finds himself today. The president now oversees a prison in which, despite the fact that over half the remaining prisoners have been cleared for release by his task force, cynical lawmakers, and the president's own failure of will, have made it increasingly difficult for him to release anyone.
Anonymity - the dehumanisation of these men - helps to maintain the illusion that their ongoing detention is somehow justifiable, but if their stories, and the circumstances of their capture, were more widely known, the Bush administration's enduring mythology might be thoroughly punctured. More substantial steps would be demanded - and then follow - to secure their release. Bringing the stories of Omar Deghayes and Moazzam Begg to the American public can, hopefully, play a part in this still necessary process.
Andy Worthington will be appearing at the Brecht Forum on Thursday 6 January in New York, and at Revolution Books on Friday 7 January, for a screening of his documentary and discussion; for further details of these and other dates, see here
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Show All"Anonymity - the dehumanisation of these men - helps to maintain the illusion that their ongoing detention is somehow justifiable, but if their stories, and the circumstances of their capture, were more widely known, the Bush administration's enduring mythology might be thoroughly punctured."
Again, the 8,000,000 pound gorilla in the room is this, Mr. Worthington:
Why stop at the illegal detentions?
Why stop at the feeble justifications and lies to get us into Iraq?
The lies about Afghanistan?
Why not question the very moment that ALL of this secrecy and outright falsehood became the overt modus operandi of the United States?
Yes, I do mean 9/11.
Instead we have a thousand different articles by hundreds of different authors about a thousand terrible aspects of the ensuing War on Terror and its implications but only a handful of these journalists ever seem to deem it necessary to investigate the day "that changed everything."
I mean, even after providing detail upon detail and instance upon instance of government malfeasance and/or incompetence concerning the WOT's negative influences both domestically and abroad the authors of said pieces will inevitably include this gem or some variation within the report/article:
"When 19 terrorists hijacked 4 planes and flew them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon..."
And thus completely - whether intentionally or unintentionally - stifle any discussion or examination of the catalyst for the subsequent horrible events that they as authors spend so much time describing for us in terms dripping with outrage.
And they do this all the while giving further credence to a make-believe story given to us by the very same government they spend so much time describing as participating in illegal and immoral activities in their articles.
As we approach the 10 year anniversary of said event, I can only speak for myself that this sin of omission is one of if not THE MOST glaring and sickening phenomenon this country and its coterie of press-whores has ever been involved with.
Bush declared the GWOT, which means he declared a World War and was never challenged by Congress which was glad to acquiesce it's responsibility of being the only body that can legally declare the Country to be at war. The mindlessness American public doesn't even know their own Constitution to the point of challenging their Congressmen to question the World War, declared by Bush and assumed by ObomberBush.
Bring America Back !!!!
yes obama fell for the osama bin laden fairy tale
and started the holy drone crusade to tora bora.
obama has adopted the bush wars and cannot be
separated from the bush gang when it comes to
guilt for war crimes. half of his time in office
has been the third term of king george.
this authors comments on 911 are exact and correct
Apparently the only reason there are people there who "must be held indefinitely without trial" is that there is nothing to try them for and no hope that we could possibly explain their being there at all, let alone this long, without our corporate government appearing to be the sociopathic monsters that they are.
Saras, thank you for actually addressing the substance of the article. The cruelty of our "leadership" is unimaginable. These poor victims are truly in the belly of the beast.
My dream solution to Guantanamo: The Americans sail away and leave the whole chunk of Cuba that they stole, along with the unfortunate inmates of their prison, to the Cubans.
Better yet, we make peace with the whole world! Imagine that.
polycarpe -
I have posted previously some of my own ideas about how the official 9/11 Commission narrative is largely dangerous, self-serving bunk. I have my pet suspicions and theories converning the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about what happened on September 11, 2001 and the months preceding it, and I'm sure you have yours.
But I don't share your towering outrage about the "sin of omission", the "glaring and sickening phenomenon" of writers and journalists who ignore the "catalyst" event and focus instead upon crimes like launching wars of aggression, adopting torture and indefinite detention without trial as official US government policy, warrantless electronic surveillance, and the other related evils of the global war on terror. I really can't quite fathom why Andy Worthington (or Noam Chomsky, for that matter) periodically catch shit from progressives because reference to the 9/11 WTC attack isn't a focal point or a subtext in every essay they write.
You ask "Why not question the very moment that all of this secrecy and outright falsehood became the overt modus operandi of the United States"?
Well, you didn't have to get to the bottom of the Kennedy assassination in order to vociferously oppose the Vietnam war and expose the lies that led the nation into that bloody quagmire either. And indeed, a decent historical case can be made that the big lies and the big cover up all started in Dallas in November of 1963 and the republic has been headed to hell in a handbasket ever since.
If 9/11 had never happened, torture and Gitmo would still be immoral, illegal, wrong, and a policy that should be condemned. If 9/11 had never happened, a psy ops campaign based on fear mongering lies about weapons of mass destruction as pretext to launch a war of aggression would still be illegal and wrong. If 9/11 had never happened, letting loose the NSA snoops to gobble up everbody's domestic digital communications would still be illegal and wrong. So why fixate on the Big Lie of September 11th when there are so many other monstrous, pressing big lies that also merit immediate attention, exposure and accountability?
Conversely, suppose we did magically get a Wikileaks load of 2001 vintage CIA documents corroborating all your worst suspicions about the destruction of the World Trade Center, or the proverbial mouse-in-the-corner eyewitness capable of proving complicity in high places.
How does that end the occupation of Afghanistan or Iraq? How does that get the nation out of the torture and targeted assassination business? How does that get the spooks out of wholesale warrantless domestic data mining? Granted, such revelations about what really happened on 9/11 would generate a huge shitstorm of very well-deserved political repercussions, but how would that cure America of what ails us?
Forty years after the fact, the documents were declassified proving that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not at all a clear cut act of military aggression by North Vietnam against US naval vessels in international waters. If those facts had been made known much, much earlier, how would it have hastened the US withdrawal from Vietnam? If the Warren Commission's account of JFK's murder had been conclusively debunked shortly after its findings were published, would that have made the antiwar protest movement of the 60's and early 70's unnecessary?
I agree entirely that the 9/11 Commission fact findings should be reexamined, particularly by declassifying all of the classified materials that were with held by the Bush White House now that nearly a decade has passed. But I don't see that as the silver bullet solution to imperial overstretch, torture, and subversion of the Bill of Rights. Sorry, I just can't share that level of angst, and I really don't think commentators who decline to stir 9/11 into everything should be taken to task as press-whores who are ignoring the elephant in the corner of the room.
Bill from Saginaw
I guess we can agree to disagree.
See I believe that day was intended to mark the beginning of a period in time much different from the previous eras you mentioned.
Yes, all of the things you stated above could be considered true - that the Kennedy assassination could be seen as a catalyst of what came later and that even by uncovering the events surrounding the Kennedy assasination many of the subsequent events may not have been prevented.
But I do believe 9/11 was different.
Why?
I believe that 9/11 was staged and carried out so that not only could all of the previously more covert applications of fascist policy be brought to the forefront and made overt but more importantly it would be the harbinger of a new era - an era where reality itself could no longer be counted upon by the American populace - and the populace of the world for that matter - as being "real".
Instead of manipulating events through assasinations or coup d'etats, this time the conspirators - whoever they may be - would go whole hog and destroy a targeted human population's ability to discern reality by creating an event so horrendous/scarring and a propagandosphere so quickly mutating and pervasive that the very ability to discern what really happened in BROAD DAYLIGHT and witnessed by billions of people wouldn't be successfully questioned.
Mark you, this was not a bunch of hunter-gathers that were dazzled with firesticks and beads. This was the one of the most wealthy and techologically advanced populations of people on the planet.
If they could be made to lose their ability to fathom what they witnessed with their own eyes through orchestrated media manipulation and propaganda - why then, what would conceivably stand in "their" way to do whatever they want?
It would be a green light for "them" to define reality the way "they" wanted it knowing that - if push ever came to shove - the had the tools/people at their disposal to bring about another event with similar reality defining purposes.
Straussian philosophy at it's most manifest and evil.
No longer is it he who has the money makes the rules but he who controls reality that makes the rules.
Which brings me back to the journalists and thinkers.
Yes, there are many consequences of that day and the WOT which probably wouldn't end overnight if indeed the full story were expose by Wikileaks tomorrow.
And you're correct that in this way it can be viewed as analogous to the Kennedy assasination.
But that comparison raises the question - if the goal was to solely to keep the MIC happy and wars still brewing - why go to the absurd levels they did and why create such a spectacle when an assassination or Tonkin type incident would have sufficed?
What was the reason - if the Offical Story is not true - for multiple planes and celebrity cellular death calls(Barbara Olsen) and heroic "let's roll" stories and anthrax and the countless other absurdities and chimerical events that happened on that day and the few days following?
It was to get away with a coup d'etat in broad daylight and to set the stage for other reality "disruptions" in the future.
Something unprecedented in the history of modern man.
These are the questiosn I think you and all thinkers should be asking for therein lies the difference between 9/11 and other past events.
It's not just the day and the implications.
No, although those are critically important.
It's that something unprecedented happened on that day, something that no one has successfully explained.
Something was done to us.
Something that affected our ability to discern reality and this is why I always harp on 9/11 and what I feel is the lack of conversation and examination of that day.
We need our great thinkers like Chomsky and all the rest to help lead us in that conversation and examination.
They have the cognitive tools, critical capacities and reputations to help us as a society begin to understand what was an event I feel was unlike any other.
Lastly, if what I have suggested above is only partially true another questions becomes what can we expect in the future?
Again, this is another area where all hands should be on deck as for far too long we've become a reactive populace prone to the whims of an elite that has demonstrated ill will for those not of their ranks.
I appreciate your comments and will look forward to any further responses as I believe we have to have these conversations as they assist everyone in not just trying to ascertain the truth of the events of that day but again the truth of what that day was meant to do to us.
It's one thing to be skeptical of the "official" story. Government lies form the foundation of our political reality and when government lips move, we should all be skeptical. But to accept, with such certainty, a hypothesis that surpasses in its fantastical premises what any fictional entertainment dealing with the behavior of a superpower could possibly get away with--is not indicative of a mind thinking critically. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that your thinking is religious in nature. We all filter the world through the confirmation biases of our existing beliefs. You don't seem to be aware that you are doing that.
"...dealing with the behavior of a superpower could possibly get away with--is not indicative of a mind thinking critically."
But they did get away with it so I don't understand what your argument is.
PNAC did indeed get the "Pearl Harbor type event" they stated they needed to put their agenda into motion.
"We all filter the world through the confirmation biases of our existing beliefs."
And your belief system is telling you that no one could be that evil, that no one would/could pull off a crime so large and with so many moving parts.
From the documentation of Operation Northwoods and other such unclassified plans we have ample evidence that false flag attacks were indeed planned involving the deaths of American citizens, major events that would be used to catalyze foreign policy objectives.
If you sincerely believe that the Official Story we were told concerning the events of that day are a more likely explanation than my musings I feel that you exemplify EXACTLY why the perpetrators knew they would get away with it.
By creating an event so large and seemingly multifaceted the first cognitive response held by observers of said event would be yours, "There's no way anyone could have conspired to do this."
This is the same cognitive knee-jerk response that inhibit commentators and thinkers to delve into this topic.
Their minds have been captured by a conclusion before they've even really thought hard on the subject.
"But to accept, with such certainty, a hypothesis that surpasses in its fantastical premises what any fictional entertainment dealing with the behavior of a superpower could possibly get away with..."
To counter this claim I direct you the pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen which aired on April 2011 in which rogue elements of the MIC hijack a passenger airliner and attempt to crash it into the WTC all to create a terrorist "enemy" that wold help fuel increased defense spending in the wake of the Cold War's close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3WW6eoLcLI
"I'm saying that your thinking is religious in nature"
Here's a thought experiment:
Picture a spectrum.
On one end of the spectrum is a world where each individual is a singular self-empowered entity free to do whatever he/she wants to do.
On the other end of the spectrum is a world that is controlled by evil totalitarian cabal of villaiins who diabolically determine the fate of everyone's life.
Where do you think the United States today lies on that spectrum? Closer to the individual freedom end or closer to the evil cabal side?
Well, it certainly is pretty easy to see that a relatively few very powerful interests control much of our government, our media, our lives.
So if this is the case, why is my thinking religious?
If my hypothesis more closely hews to the world we live in - a world that is increasingly dictated to us by fewer and fewer entities - why would you dismiss my cogitations as religious?
This all goes back to my earlier answer to Bill.
Take Chomsky and other thinkers in his vein, for example.
Here's a man more than anyone who has delineated the true power structures in the US and how those power structures have only consolidated their hold on our lives.
Now, why is it so hard for even critical thinkers and theorists on the subject of power consolidation and its nefarious effects to even hypothesize that maybe manifestations of said power might someday go beyond what has previously existed before?
Sure, Chomsky and others describe present reality well.
But I would love to here them detail what they predict for the future.
Would it not involve a "full-spectrum" dominance by TPTB concerning not just our careers and choices, but our thoughts, emotions and perceptions of reality as well?
What in what Chomsky and other's writings DON'T point to these conclusions.
Finally, even if you may doubt aspects of it, why try and shut down my hypothesizing?
If I want to be labeled a "loon", is it not my choice?
Are you just looking out for me? Why so friendly?
I know I don't have any answers just thoughts as to where answers may be.
And because the country we live in is controlled by a handful of very powerful groups, to look there for answers shouldn't be considered crazy by anyone.
To believe that as this unprecedented consolidation of power only increases that said power will strictly manifest itself along lines which we are already familiar with and which we can use history as a reliable guide is naive at best and more akin to negligence.
"I'm saying that your thinking is religious in nature."
Actually, it is your thinking that is religious in nature. It's one of those facts that seems to be ignored by those who don't have an education in the history of state sponsored terrorism, and the use of false flag events to justify military and terrorist aggression.
You should start by reading Danielle Ganser's book "NATO's Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe", which ironically, has a blurb on the back from Chomsky. It was a program designed to terrorize Europe to prevent leftists from obtaining state power. Dozens of attacks were organized by CIA/NATO and blamed on the communists.
Further, for some reason, the fact that nearly 2000+ accredited engineers and scientists publicly ridicule and prove, scientifically, that the official explanation is impossible, it seems that science-ignorant journalists purposefully ignore their analysis.
You should recognize that explosives were found in the dust from 911 that proves, without any contention otherwise in a peer reviewed process, using the most advanced analytical tools available, that highly engineered devices were planted in the buildings and were responsible for their collapse.
Please don't attack people from a position of ignorance and "religious" belief in state propaganda. Do your own homework. Start by reading this ground breaking paper headed by the prestigious Dr. Harrit, an expert chemist that specializes in nano-scale research, from the University of Copenhagen:
http://bit.ly/aYR340
BILL & POLY: Excellent posts.
Not so, Sioux. I was disappointed to learn that Bill, who I have seen as a voice of reason on these pages, has conspiracist tendencies. Nevertheless, his objections to Polycarpe are reasonable.
Polycarpe, on the other hand, is simply incoherent. He or she demands that every commentator on the American crimes in regard to the so-called war on terror question “the very moment that ALL of this secrecy and outright falsehood became the overt modus operandi of the United States?” Huh? The US is now overtly covert? Did someone from the gov come out and say, “OK, we are now openly and honestly secretive and false.”? – because I missed that. Poly’s also a bit nasty: those who don’t do as he/she requires are “press-whores.”
(Oh, just for fun, another bit of incoherence: Poly says, “What in what Chomsky and other's writings DON'T point to these conclusions.” Again, huh? Can we at least write comprehensibly?)
This incoherence and nastiness point to the psychological problems underlying Poly’s and all the other conspiracists’ mentality. “Something was done to us,” says Poly. Wow! Shades of alien abduction! I hope it wasn’t, you know, the probing thing.
In the conspiracist’s world, an immensely powerful, absolutely evil, unfailingly competent, ubiquitous, prescient, sinister group is working behind the scenes to do something terrible to us. The conspiracist, far more perceptive than anyone else, is on to this dreadful secret. If only it were revealed, a magical transformation would occur – the vampires would dissolve in the sunlight, or something. But the ignorant herd is strangely, willfully deaf to the theorist's "harping". They will not listen to Cassandra. All the more proof, says she, of the immense power of the evil cabal. So the noble seer must continue his/her heroic, hopeless struggle alone, or with a small band of the righteous. The unbeliever, the infidel, is contemptible, a sinner.
The disease is obvious. The technical term is “loony.” But, says Poly, “If I want to be labeled a ‘loon’, is it not my choice?” Indeed it is, Poly, but please don't discredit this forum with your looniness.
Yet, conspiracies happen all the time. Read my post above regarding Operation Gladio.
What liberals like yourself fail to understand is that "conspiracy" is institutionalized within this system. What do you think the CIA is? It's an institutionalized system for designing conspiracies to manage the empire, overthrow governments, engage in assassinations, threaten world leaders unless they play ball (think John Perkins, Economic Hitman), and engage in propaganda to make people like you think that they don't conspire.
The disease that you should be referring to is what Chris Hedges calls "The Death of the Liberal Class".
The disease is your own naivete.
Wrong, malatesta!
I am definitely not so naive as to believe that there are not government conspiracies like Gladio, false flag events, agent provocateurs, and so on.
But there are Gladios and then there are Roswells, and the 9/11 conspiracy theory is decidedly in Roswell territory.
So I assume you will withdraw your charge of liberalism. But this bit of labeling does raise a question. Do I (and those press-whores like Chomsky) have to agree with Poly in order to meet some purity standard? What label should I be aiming for? Progressive, socialist, communist, anarchist, ideologue, nut?
So, instead of setting up and knocking down the liberal straw man, let's see if we can address some pertinent questions:
1. Do you believe, like Poly, that once the people learn this particular "Truth" that that will transform the world, that, for example, the people will then rise up and overthrow the evildoers? My answer -- not likely. It seems to me that the people have had plenty of reason to rise up for a long time. I sincerely doubt that this extra bit of information will be that bit of magic that finally gets them onto the street, or whatever.
2. Do you believe that in fact "the Truth" can be established? My answer -- this I seriously, deeply, earnestly doubt. If the evildoers were so diabolically clever as to carry out this incredibly complicated plot, do you think they were dumb enough to leave any evidence behind?
3. Given the improbability of 1 and 2, do you think it is right to demand of anyone criticizing any aspect of the "WOT" that they focus their attention first and foremost on the conspiracy hypothesis? Are those who don't, no matter how otherwise estimable, whores and sinners, as Poly would have it, or worse, liberals?
4. So, given all the above, do you think the obsessive demands of the conspiracists advance the cause of liberation or discredit it and obstruct it with their petulant demands?
Polycarpe has a right to his/her opinion.
I for one, enjoy reading his/her posts.
You enjoy reading Poly's posts? Really? You enjoy deciphering sentences like this -- “I believe that 9/11 was staged and carried out so that not only could all of the previously more covert applications of fascist policy be brought to the forefront and made overt but more importantly it would be the harbinger of a new era - an era where reality itself could no longer be counted upon by the American populace - and the populace of the world for that matter - as being ‘real’.” -- or the next one, “Instead of manipulating events through assasinations or coup d'etats, this time the conspirators - whoever they may be - would go whole hog and destroy a targeted human population's ability to discern reality by creating an event so horrendous/scarring and a propagandosphere so quickly mutating and pervasive that the very ability to discern what really happened in BROAD DAYLIGHT and witnessed by billions of people wouldn't be successfully questioned.”
Maybe you just enjoy the fantasy.
I prefer writing like Richard Hofstadter’s in his famous essay, “The Paranoid Style in American Politics”: “The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms—he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization. He constantly lives at a turning point....As a member of the avant-garde who is capable of perceiving the conspiracy before it is fully obvious to an as yet unaroused public, the paranoid is a militant leader.”
Here’s some more good writing from Popular Mechanics's treatment of the 9/11 conspiracy theory:
Critics of these conspiracy theories say they are a form of conspiracism common throughout history after a traumatic event in which conspiracy theories emerge as a mythic form of explanation. A related criticism addresses the form of research on which the theories are based. Thomas W. Eagar, an engineering professor at MIT, suggested they "use the 'reverse scientific method'. They determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion." Michael Shermer, writing in Scientific American, said: "The mistaken belief that a handful of unexplained anomalies can undermine a well-established theory lies at the heart of all conspiratorial thinking. All the evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy falls under the rubric of this fallacy. Such notions are easily refuted by noting that scientific theories are not built on single facts alone but on a convergence of evidence assembled from multiple lines of inquiry."
My point is that conspiracism impedes the cause.
You're right, ekstatik.
Since YOU and other liberal "thinkers" can't possibly imagine that an intelligence agency apparatus that has a proven track record of nefarious activity for over 60 years and that has fed itself with TRILLIONS of dollars of black budget funds for just as long could possibly be involved in activities beyond the ken of YOUR understanding of how the world should work, then I guess it just could never be.
Everyone has to play the rules that YOU understand.
Everyone has to follow the strictures of YOUR "reality"-based schema.
Gee, that's a comforting thought.
I know I sure would be comforted late at night knowing that only things that I could possibly understand could ever take place and that everyone - no matter how amoral or insidious - plays by the rules that I understand the world to work by.
How cute.
Let's go further, shall we?
Why, isn't it this same lack of imagination on the part of the left that has allowed the right to garner so much power in the last 30 years?
Talk about impeding the cause.
No one would EVER stop the counting of votes to steal an election.
No one would EVER misuse the filibuster to render one house of our legislature null and void.
No one would EVER use electronic ballot box manipulation to taint election results.
No one would EVER fabricate out of thin air reasons to invade another country and repeatedly lie to the faces of the American public and the world.
Should I go on?
I could for hours.
No, instead let's all continue to use the thoughts of Hofstadter from 1964 as the basis of our thinking and understanding of the 21st century America we live in, right?
Nothing's changed in the nearly 50 years since then and there's been no reason whatsoever to make us alter our beliefs.
Instead, keep on ridiculing people who have the honesty and humility to admit to themselves that maybe, just maybe, there may exist right now technologies that we as laypersons don't understand.
That there may also be people in this world operating with motives and a lack of morality which we also don't comprehend.
Personally, I believe that anyone who DOESN'T question the events and explanations of 9/11 is either 1) a liar 2) a shill or 3) mentally incompetent.
Take your pick.
Until then:
Keep on, sheeping on, ekstatic!
The TPTB depend upon people exactly like yourself.
P.S. Maybe your check's already in the mail.
“You're right, ekstatik.”
A good start, but oh no!
“Since YOU... “
Go straight to ad hominem
“...and other liberal...”
and straw men. Q: on what basis do you label me a liberal?
"thinkers" can't possibly imagine that an intelligence agency apparatus that has a proven track record of nefarious activity for over 60 years and that has fed itself with TRILLIONS of dollars of black budget funds for just as long could possibly be involved in activities beyond the ken of YOUR understanding of how the world should work, then I guess it just could never be."
But I can, Poly. Did you miss the bit where I told malatesta I was aware there are conspiracies. The thing is, some are real and some are imaginary.
“Everyone has to play the rules that YOU understand.”
No, everyone has to play the rules that YOU understand.
“Everyone has to follow the strictures of YOUR "reality"-based schema.”
No, everyone has to follow the strictures of YOUR "reality"-based schema.
“Gee, that's a comforting thought.
“I know I sure would be comforted late at night knowing that only things that I could possibly understand could ever take place and that everyone - no matter how amoral or insidious - plays by the rules that I understand the world to work by.”
When did I express any doubt as to the amorality and insidiousness of Bush/Cheney/US gov generally?
“How cute.”
Cute?
“Let's go further, shall we?”
Must we? Because there is no “lack of imagination” on my part (see above) but rather an excess on yours.
“Why, isn't it this same lack of imagination on the part of the left that has allowed the right to garner so much power in the last 30 years?
Talk about impeding the cause.
No one would EVER stop the counting of votes to steal an election.
No one would EVER misuse the filibuster to render one house of our legislature null and void.
No one would EVER use electronic ballot box manipulation to taint election results.
No one would EVER fabricate out of thin air reasons to invade another country and repeatedly lie to the faces of the American public and the world.
Should I go on?”
Certainly not, because none of these red herrings are relevant and I do believe any of these ideas that you attribute to me.
“I could for hours.”
Years, surely
.
“No, instead let's all continue to use the thoughts of Hofstadter from 1964 as the basis of our thinking and understanding of the 21st century America we live in, right?
“Nothing's changed in the nearly 50 years since then and there's been no reason whatsoever to make us alter our beliefs.”
I suppose that if I quoted, say, Voltaire, that you would claim I hadn’t changed my ideas since the 18th century.
“Instead, keep on ridiculing people who have the honesty and humility to admit to themselves that maybe, just maybe, there may exist right now technologies that we as laypersons don't understand.”
Didn’t ridicule anyone. Am aware that there are technologies I don’t understand.
“That there may also be people in this world operating with motives and a lack of morality which we also don't comprehend.”
Am aware of that, too.
“Personally, I believe that anyone who DOESN'T question the events and explanations of 9/11 is either 1) a liar 2) a shill or 3) mentally incompetent.”
Have questioned them, examined them, and found that in this particular instance, the “official version” is the most likely. (BTW, why the insults?)
“Take your pick.”
None of the above.
“Until then:
“Keep on, sheeping on, ekstatic!”
Not a sheep, but a rational, honest, humble human.
“The TPTB depend upon people exactly like yourself.”
No, they count on people who can’t think straight.
“P.S. Maybe your check's already in the mail.”
Ah, the next conspiracy!
I agree with SR.