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Offshoring War: How Obama—and Those Moments of Silence—Insult Military Sacrifice
“Honoring those who’ve served,” President Obama said in Seoul [last week], “is about more than the words we say on Veterans Day or Memorial Day. It’s about how we treat our Veterans every single day of the year.”
Assuming, that is, that those veterans get to come home. Obama is ensuring that hundreds of them, and soon to be thousands, won’t be coming home from Afghanistan. He’s ensuring that thousands will come home maimed, psychologically demolished, irreparable. And he’s doing so knowing, as anyone with an elementary sense of history and a vague memory of the last 10 years should know, that the casualties are in vain. Those men and women are dying uselessly, in cause lost years ago, but still pursued for the same reasons Vietnam was pursued uselessly after 1967: to save face. How ironic, how repulsive, that saving national face hinges on the willful disfigurement of thousands of men and women.
When a president sends soldiers to die in a war that long ago ceased having a claim to being just, a war that quickly lost its chance of being won, and a war fought on behalf of a non-existent nation of tribes as ungrateful as they are resentful, hateful or malicious toward the American presence, those Americans are no longer being sacrificed by their nation. They’re being murdered. The complicity is national, too, down to that pathetic “moment of silence” that’s become the norm at the beginning of local government meetings, allegedly on behalf of servicemen. That silence, more complicit than respectful, is the last thing they need, if this nation were to show its true allegiance to servicemen’s sacrifice.
Two things happened this election season that say more about the immoral (rather than the demoralized) state of the nation than the mechanics of the Republican sweep. One of those things was a void. Virtually no candidate talked about Afghanistan, now the longest war in American history, and one claiming an average of 40 American lives a month. The public certainly didn’t care to talk about it, because it doesn’t care. And the Obama administration didn’t talk about it publicly. Why rouse another shame on its record? But it did signal that its promise to begin drawing down forces there in 2011 can now be added to its growing list of flip-flops, cave-ins, wilts and betrayals.
That was the second thing that happened, near the very end of the
campaign and immediately after election day. It won’t be before 2014
that Americans will start withdrawing. “The end of 2014,” if Joe
Lieberman, one of the Senate great war lovers, tells Army Times, as if
it were nothing more than train schedules he were playing with, not
lives.
A little taxpayer math, since Congress is refusing to extend
unemployment benefits for Americans, benefits that expire in less than
two weeks—in time for Christmas—if Congress can’t muster the $33 billion
necessary to prolong them for six months. Here’s how that $33 billion
stacks up against what members of Congress blindly approve, without
debate. As of September, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have cost us
$1.1 trillion. Afghanistan alone has cost $336 billion. Costs in
Afghanistan are rising fast: $60 billion last year, $105 billion this
year, $119 billion asked for next year, or three times that unemployment
extension in a country with 15 million unemployed. Those costs in
Afghanistan don’t include caring for veterans or lost productivity and
whatever else is lost when men and women don’t return, or return in
pieces.
Remarkably, not an audible word from public, media or politicians about all that. Republicans have an excuse. They’re too busy reclaiming the scene of their crime on the American economy to the kind of public acclaim that gives slasher movies their brief popularity. What of that oxymoron of our age, the responsible press? Justly blamed in 2003 for swallowing Bush’s Iraq fictions whole, it’s not even being blamed these days for forgetting that Afghanistan exists. There’s no one to blame it, since the public at large has reverted to thinking of Afghans as nothing more than a type of blanket.
The GOP is probably saving its Afghanistan card for 2012, when it’ll be able to turn the tables on Obama and use his own words—used against Bush’s incompetence in 2008 and John McCain’s allegiance to that incompetence in Afghanistan—against him. It’ll have every reason.
After endless dawdling last year, President Obama made what until then was the worst foreign policy decision of his presidency: he endorsed a plan to escalate American military power in Afghanistan, even though, after nine years of war, American forces were nowhere near gaining an advantage or attaining an objective, other than merely being there. By then it was made clear by the CIA and the Pentagon that al-Qaeda was in Pakistan, not in Afghanistan, and that Pakistan’s double-face, not to mention Pakistan’s nuclear stash, is the more serious strategic threat than either Iran or Afghanistan will ever be. Then there’s that Afghan president. The country is ruled by a corrupt, fraudulently elected double-dealer with no interest in resolving conflict and no respect from Afghans at large, let alone for US troops. But Obama and Hillary Clinton—a secretary of state even more ineffective than Condoleezza Rice or her husband’s Warren Christopher—still pay tribute to the guy as if he were their equal.
Here’s what we get in exchange: Last month the war entered its 10th year. So far this year, 431 U.S. soldiers have been killed, by far the highest tally of any year since 2001, for a total of 1,378 American soldiers killed. Last year’s total: 317. The war’s evolution has the grim distinction of annually breaking the record of US soldiers’ deaths nine years in a row. Add to that the soldiers killed from NATO and other allied countries, and the tally rises to 2,203. Add the Afghan tally, which registers barely or not at all in most Americans’ idea of the war, and we’re into the tens of thousands, with nothing gained and less settled: The Taliban controls most of the country. The US and NATO militaries are pulling off isolated, tactical victories, but they’re not altering the overall equation. There’s no victory here–not one to preserve, certainly not one that can be gained.
That was true in 2001. It’s been true since, with no let-up except in cavernous illusions whenever it’s time to pony up more billions and more troops, and whenever the elected have to pander to veterans with those words of respect so insultingly at odds with the reality of the country’s contempt for its troops. True, returning soldiers aren’t being spat on at airports. They’re being applauded. They’re being invited to schools and honored in church. But that’s more vile than the spitting, because it amounts to a celebration of indifference: Thank you for fighting and dying over there, wherever that may be. Now don’t bother us with details. Facebook status updates beckon.
The economy’s been outsourced. Why not the war? “So I want all of you to know when you come home your country is going to be there for you,” Obama told those prop soldiers in Seoul. “That is the commitment I make to you as Commander-in-Chief. That is the sacred trust between the United States of America and all who defend its ideals.” There’s an even more sacred trust: those soldiers’ lives, whose loss demeans the very ideals Obama claims to be defending.
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47 Comments so far
Show AllAs a retired veteran I only have two words.
WELL SAID.
"a non-existent nation of tribes as ungrateful as they are resentful, hateful or malicious toward the American presence,"
What a morally, ethnicly disgusting, historically and culturally ignorant, statement reeking of USA exceptionalism and imperial propaganda.
Afghanistan has been a universally recognized nation for twice as long as India or Pakistan.
It is culturally, racially and ethnicly more unified than either India or Pakistan or I daresay the USA.
How foolish of the Afghans not to pay homage to the Robo invader stormtroopers murdering their handcuffed children, prying their slugs out of the Afghans pregnant wives and incinerating whole towns.
They are guilty of having a decentralized tribal community control way of life, very difficult for the greedy warmongers to control.
The only way the invaders know to defeat them is as they did to the American and Austrailian tribal peoples ( and many other Tribals) is physical and cultural destruction.
This author is the symptom of a cancerous illness of abject ignorance and virulent raging violent callousness that pervades the USA.
A nation that had two elections obviously stolen and is intent on robbing the whole world to Bloat it's most greedy 10% is in no position to name anyone as corrupt.
Let these USA atrocities reign down upon this author and his family and then demand that he is grateful
Unless you're an Afghan tribalist, I think you've really gone off the deep end here. You're making a lot of unfounded inferences about Tristam's "exceptionalist" assumptions and everything else. Afghans can be ungrateful, malicious, hateful and resentful toward the American presence strictly because they have every right to be, and Tristam doesn't suggest otherwise. He never says they're stupid and ungrateful for all we've done for them. He knows this hideous and criminal action (not a war, any more than what the US did to Iraq was a "war") is completely unjustified by any measure and Obama is as guilty of war crimes as Bush was, and is.
When you say "This author is the symptom of a cancerous illness of abject ignorance and virulent raging violent callousness that pervades the USA," you confuse him with William Kristol or Charles Krauthammer. Get a grip, Glenn. You can't be this dense.
Unless I am an Afghan tribalist? What? I cannot comprehend the history or mourn what has been done to Tribal peoples throughout the world without being Tribal or Afghan tribal myself?
"A non existent nation" a definite lie pre USA invasion. This non- nation status for Afghanistan is pure psyc ops propaganda for fools to repeat.
How could one claim the sentence I quoted is not derogratory? He is saying why have USA stormtroopers die for people that are ungrateful to be killed by them. That is clear and that is reeking of USA exceptionalism.
Tristam uses a long string of negative terms to describe the Afghan people and you attempt to claim that he is not denigrating them? Logically I see your point but the emotional content is purely derogatory to the Afghans.
Just because someone writes from the correct side of the fence does not mean he deserves a pass when he spews out verbatim USA imperial propaganda(re the qoute).
One can probably find that same phrase in a USA newspaper from the 1860's referencing the near genocidal extermination of American Tribal Nations.
When I speak of exceptionalism, ignorance and callousness I speak of the huge number of the USA that accepts slaughtering 100,000's, even Millions of innocents.
The term Tribal is irrelevant unless he is using it in a derogatory manner, thus the exceptionalism is not assumed it is cleary written in the quote.
That some posters cannot see how hideous this quote is tells me that they to hold a negative view of Tribal peoples, and believe the propaganda that Afganistan is a "non-existent nation"
And a definite sign of a USA exceptionist is when they discuss the cost of a war and never mention the human tragedy being inflicted on the USA's victims.
One recent thread showed most posters decrying the monetary cost of the Afghan War
and ignoring the Afghans toll.
I spent six months in Afganistan prior to the USA destroying their reformist socialist government and when I see this glaringly obvious denigration of a, in so many ways, a noble people it crys out for rectification.
.
Can you repost your incoherent raving a few more times, with even more misspellings and illiterate typos? (There are far too many to repeat. You read like Shawn Berry on steroids.) You're off the wall with your total misinterpretation of this piece, and so is Sioux Rose, BTW. You've collapsed into impossible hysterics and histrionics, and it's useless trying to reason with you. Why not just say Tristam is a plant and a stooge because he didn't mention Building 7, or say anything about 9/11 as an inside job? It would make as much sense as your babbling argument.
"Why not just say Tristam is a plant and a stooge because he didn't mention Building 7, or say anything about 9/11 as an inside job?"
That's an ad hominem attack calling someone a stooge or a plant just for disagreeing that 9/11 was an inside job. What does 9/11 have to do with Afghanistan right now anyway? Wouldn't we still be invading Afghanistan if the insider story were believed?
You really need a course in reading comprehension, or some IQ pills or something. If you can't understand even the most obvious irony, and I'm sure you don't even know what irony means or how it's used, then I can't waste time explaining that I wasn't making ANY kind of attack, ad hominem or otherwise, on Tristam. I was DEFENDING him, nitwit. You throw around a lot of accusations here about what others intend, that they're being "negative" or hurtful or nasty, when it's clear you rarely have even a rudimentary understanding of what is actually being said.
"You really need a course in reading comprehension, or some IQ pills or something."
There's no need to go ballistic just because of a minor disagreement. I have a good IQ score too but we just have different interpretations. I gave you an intelligent reply to Chris Hedges's response and you didn't choose to explain or respond.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/15-1
"If you can't understand even the most obvious irony, and I'm sure you don't even know what irony means or how it's used"
You don't know me personally so you can't make a judgment on my intelligence as I can't on you. You didn't make yourself clear about your use of irony as you usually do.
" then I can't waste time explaining that I wasn't making ANY kind of attack, ad hominem or otherwise, on Tristam."
Translation, anger and negative thinking won't let you explain. Real progressives are courteous and explain well. Try not to be sloppy.
"I was DEFENDING him, nitwit."
Whoa, simmer down on your name-calling.
"You throw around a lot of accusations here about what others intend, that they're being "negative" or hurtful or nasty, when it's clear you rarely have even a rudimentary understanding of what is actually being said."
There you go with an ad hominem and parroting off someone else's confirmed bias. Instead of attacking others on intelligence just because of your personal disagreements, try being courteous and helpful. Not everyone interprets what is said the same as you.
Right you are Glenn. I felt the same way when I came across that repellent, disgusting phrase.
Unless I am an Afghan tribalist? What? I cannot comprehend the history or mourn what has been done to Tribal peoples throughout the world without being Tribal or Afghan tribal myself?
"A non existent nation" a definite lie pre USA invasion. This non- nation status for Afghanistan is pure phsyc ops propaganda for fools to repeat.
How could one claim the sentence I quoted is not derogratory? He is saying why have USA stormtroopers die for people that are ungrateful to be killed by them. That is clear and that is reeking of USA exceptionalism.
Tristam uses a long string of negative terms to describe the Afghan people and you attempt to claim that he is not denigrating them?
Just because someone writes from the correct side of the fence does not mean he deserves a pass when he spews out verbatim USA imperial propaganda(re the qoute).
One can probably find that same phrase in a USA newspaper from the 1860's referencing the near genocidal extermination of American Tribal Nations.
When I speak of exceptionalism, ignorance and callousness I speak of the huge number of the USA that accepts slaughtering 100,000's, even Millions of innocents.
The term Tribal is irrelevant unless he is using it in a derogatory manner, thus the exceptionalism is not assumed it is cleary written in the quote.
That some posters cannot see how hidious this quote is tells me that they to hold a negative view of Tribal peoples, believe the propaganda that Afganistan is a "non-existent nation"
And a definite sign of a USA exceptionist is when they discuss the cost of a war and never mention the human tragedy being inflicted on the USA's victims.
One recent thread showed most posters decrying the monetary cost of the Afghan War
and ignoring the Afghans toll.
I spent six months in Afganistan prior to the USA destroying their reformist socialist government and when I see this glaringly obvious denigration of a, in so many ways, a noble people it crys out for retification.
.
Unless I am an Afghan tribalist? What? I cannot comprehend the history or mourn what has been done to Tribal peoples throughout the world without being Tribal or Afghan tribal myself?
"A non existent nation" a definite lie pre USA invasion. This non- nation status for Afghanistan is pure phsyc ops propaganda for fools to repeat.
How could one claim the sentence I quoted is not derogratory? He is saying why have USA stormtroopers die for people that are ungrateful to be killed by them. That is clear and that is reeking of USA exceptionalism.
Tristam uses a long string of negative terms to describe the Afghan people and you attempt to claim that he is not denigrating them?
Just because someone writes from the correct side of the fence does not mean he deserves a pass when he spews out verbatim USA imperial propaganda(re the qoute).
One can probably find that same phrase in a USA newspaper from the 1860's referencing the near genocidal extermination of American Tribal Nations.
When I speak of exceptionalism, ignorance and callousness I speak of the huge number of the USA that accepts slaughtering 100,000's, even Millions of innocents.
The term Tribal is irrelevant unless he is using it in a derogatory manner, thus the exceptionalism is not assumed it is cleary written in the quote.
That some posters cannot see how hidious this quote is tells me that they to hold a negative view of Tribal peoples, believe the propaganda that Afganistan is a "non-existent nation"
And a definite sign of a USA exceptionist is when they discuss the cost of a war and never mention the human tragedy being inflicted on the USA's victims.
One recent thread showed most posters decrying the monetary cost of the Afghan War
and ignoring the Afghans toll.
I spent six months in Afganistan prior to the USA destroying their reformist socialist government and when I see this glaringly obvious denigration of a, in so many ways, a noble people it crys out for retification.
.
Thank you, Glenn. I had the same sense of outrage at the ridiculous jingoistic assertions that run all through this apology for U.S. foreign aggression. Yeah, it's great that Pierre gives a shit about wounded soldiers, but he sure has no problem passing off the hordes of Afghan citizens murdered, injured, and otherwise "liberated" from their homes, security, and possessions.
More and more it seems that 95% of published journalists reinforce the official narratives. otherwise they're out of work or...
Given the greater inroads into conflating principled dissent with "material support for terrorism," one can understand why journalists prove so quick to cover their own asses. That's until they have to fly somewhere, and the new scan technology exposes that, too!
glen ford; Thank you from a Vet. Tony
Write correctly: "its most greedy 2%"; it with an apostrophe s always means "it is." The apostrophe is not a sign of possession in this case. And it's important to narrow the target: the American privileged class is not more than 2%.
"Afghanistan has been a universally recognized nation for twice as long as India or Pakistan.
It is culturally, racially and ethnicly more unified than either India or Pakistan or I daresay the USA."
Tristam was talking about the modern years in Afghanistan. Ancient history is irrelevant here.
"This author is the symptom of a cancerous illness of abject ignorance and virulent raging violent callousness that pervades the USA."
Did you read the article? He's getting to the point and he's on your side too unless based on the article.
"They are guilty of having a decentralized tribal community control way of life, very difficult for the greedy warmongers to control."
Is there a historical judge ruling to prove that they were found guilty?
"Let these USA atrocities reign down upon this author and his family and then demand that he is grateful"
Whoa, slow down on the anger. No need to get too negative. The author's not the problem. The problem is who's keeping us in Afghanistan.
Just another day in the Empire. The war machine must be fed, so Americans offer their sons and daughters to Moloch.
Excellent, timely essay by Pierre Tristam. Obama's West Point escalation speech has been the most depressing single moment of his presidency to date. And I suspect Pierre's prediction about how the two-major-party dynamics will do their Kabuki dance in 2012 will prove prescient.
By surging troop levels and secretly endorsing mission creep by drones and special forces across international boundaries and all the while pretending this is a war of necessity, not a war of choice, the Dems set themselves up neatly for the right wing neocons to crow "See? We told you so. Those guys are soft and incompetent on dealing with the war on terror. Vote for us instead. Militarism works, if we give our heroes to tools they need to stay the course. And the GOP can be trusted to know how to do war right, rather than half-assed and half heartedly, like that waffling Nobel Peace Prize wannabe warrior currently occupying the White House."
A significant slice of the traditional Democratic base stayed home, and those independent swing voters who voted for Obama over John McCain in 2008 deserted the administration in droves in 2010 because of the economy and because of the wars. That bloc of genuinely independent voters turned on the Bush/Cheney legacy, held their noses, and gave Barack Obama a chance to clean up the mess he inherited.
Instead of reversing course in Afghanistan, the DLC Democrats decided to double down. The window of opportunity has now pretty much slammed shut. It's a self inflicted wound every bit as tragic as LBJ in Vietnam.
Bill from Saginaw
So Bill "excellent" would mean you find Tristam's ignorance and callousness towards the Afghan people acceptable.
Glenn, on this one I agree with Ephriam's post. If you can't see the distinction between Pierre Tristam and, say, a politician like Joe Lieberman or a journalist like Michelle Malkin on the issue of glorifying American exceptionalism, you are missing the forest for the sake of the trees.
This opinion piece (I believe) was intended to communicate with progressives and ordinary, mainstream Americans about the misuse of veterans' hero worshipping in contemporary US culture. This is an important counterweight to the Pentagon psy ops' messaging and the jingoism of the major US media. He's not trying to make some sweeping, cosmic ideological point about about the evils of war or racism. He's trying to address an important domestic audience issue in which demagoguery abounds.
In the process, Tristam in no way sounded ignorant or callous towards the suffering of the people of Afghanistan to me. You make a very good point about Afghanistan actually having what we in the west would call a cohesive national character which predates the super nationalism of India and Pakistan. But in our common revulsion towards the grotesque excesses of the current face of American militarism overseas and the failure of the Obama administration to give us change we can believe in, let us not grandiosely lump moderate, measured voices like Pierre's into the enemy camp, pretending they are cancerous clones of Bill Kristol or Karl Rove.
There really is a distinction with a difference here that's worth recognizing and respecting when we reload our rhetorical magazine clips.
Bill from Saginaw
BILL: I usually agree with your well-reasoned, nuanced analyses, but here I, too, felt the dearth of anything in the way of acknowledgement for the incredible harm being done. THAT aspect was whipped up into the froth of quick, cavalier disregard.
I understand your point about defining the demographic the author speaks to.
I also feel that a lot of men, in particular, inculcated into hero worship on overt as well as subliminal levels, cut a LOT of slack to the whole military mindset. That's what I find most objectionable about this piece. Its entire raison d'etre is taken from the military perspective: what are the COSTS to our troops, and/or what are the COSTS of these foreign "theaters" to taxpayer/spectators.
It is true, as you related, that he's not making a cosmic case against war in this article; but damn it, Bill (spoken in the voice of Scotty, from Star Trek) how about his mere acknowledging that the U.S. has about as much right to be over there playing war games as you or I have breaking and entering another family's home, shooting their dog, tying up their kids, and breaking into the safe before slicing and dicing Daddy, just because we can!
What I see is an increasing acceptance of depraved indifference to LIFE itself. Added to that, and demonstrated by Obama auditioning for a job with The Carlyle Group once he leaves office... is essentially putting all our most incendiary weapons on display to lure other potentially interested buyers! Too bad about all the Afghan or Iraqi citizens ELECTED to serve as PROPS for these spectacles. The sales of weapons hidden behind hip-sounding military strategic rationales still boils down to one thing: the clear marketing of the agencies of death and destruction by the world's self-assigned cop, a/k/a officer of the PEACE. It's an abomination. And I find Tristam's giving the MEAT of the matter short shrift, the idealogical equivalent of speaking about the wrapper... not what's IN the sandwich being served as objectionable!
And while WE pick up the check/$, the persons being bombed, droned, and delivered unto the next world tout suite are the ones REALLY paying. They are considered as a mere footnote. And still this blatant, pathological disregard AFTER Hiroshima? After Nagasaki? After Vietnam? After the "sanctions" that left half a million slaugherered. After Iraq?
I mean when the fuck does it end?
> I also feel that a lot of men, in particular,
> inculcated into hero worship on overt as well
> as subliminal levels, cut a LOT of slack to
> the whole military mindset.
This is patently false. Women control the economy and our government through their spending, and the fact that they're the majority of the voters. Nobody's ever catering to "the man vote".
Women account for 80-85% of the discretionary spending in the economy. The marketers and advertisers know this quite well, which is why the media is full to the gills of stuff trying to appeal to women. Not so much for men outside of the ghetto of sports. Even the sci-fi channel has gone all girl friendly since that's the hip, desired demographic.
The fundamental problem with all these discussions about "equality" is they're always about *selective* equality. Equality for women in the public sphere, but never equality for men in the private sphere.
Looking at all the men in business and government, and concluding men have all the power, would be like looking at all the slaves in the fields of antebellum South and saying blacks had all the cotton. Dumb.
At some point people are going to have to get their heads around the fact that the most pornified societies are the most feminized, the most porn-repressive are the most traditional and "patriarchal". (Granted, we're talking about rather soft-core porn here, but the general theme prevails...)
When you free women, they don't all strive to become CEO's and Senators. Some find they excel at being attention whores instead. I suppose what's ironic is the viewership of this show, and thus the group which flashdanced these gals to fame, fortune, and stardom, has to be ~85% female, that this is what female choice produces: collisions between The Land of Make-Believe and reality.
Anyway, it's difficult to question these choices without sounding at least a little haughty and paternalistic, and when women do it it's easy to write them off as them just being envious of the attention because they're not as hot-looking.
MARTIAN: I am not going to read your post or waste my time on YOU. I have dealt with your ignorance and inability to follow MY line of reasoning on FAR too many previous occasions. Nor do I take kindly to those, like you, who project their own FALSE, mangled interpretations onto my comments. You MISAPPROPRIATE my meanings and you grant false witness. I am here to educate, while you are a plant and FRAUD.
You and your goon squad are all over the boards again, and frankly, I am disgusted by your presence here.
If others want to engage you; that is their affair. There is always at least one misogynist in the house, and where not, your buddies can fill in and play mind games all night.
I am onto your masquerade. To enlighten someone of your "sensibility" would be equivalent to the tasks before Ann Sullivan in seeking to break through to Helen Keller's blind and deaf world. Maybe you can use your charm (Ha!) to solicit another educator... or in your case, Miracle Worker!
Wow... more thoughtless, incoherent rantings. I think your posts speak for themselves. Instead of responding with any substantive comment, you immediately jump into the gutter with name calling and personal attacks. So all of your blah, blah, blah doesn't mean anything. Once again, you're just running your mouth without knowing what you're talking about. Facts hurt. Get help. It's clear you are in the middle of a serious meltdown.
Sir, sorry, but you can't hold a candle to Siouxrose – not that she NEEDS my defense.
> you can't hold a candle to Siouxrose
It doesn't bother me. I don't hold candles for anyone.
> not that she NEEDS my defense.
It's hard to defend a poster who gives an immature response such as "I am not going to read your post or waste my time on YOU" and shows her personal hatred. You love her to death and I respect that but she blew it on herself that reply and I responded with facts. She could have given a mature response to what I said in the post but she tripped herself. I don't give a damn who anyone personally is. When I respond, I don't look at their names. Facts can hurt but I post them anyway whether you like it or hate it. Don't take it personally. Always check the facts before you jump into a gutter.
"When I respond, I don't look at their names. "
If every poster on every blog would do just that, we'd have better discussions, less online negativity to keep us distracted especially on the name-calling from all sides, and blogs would end up being more useful.
"Women control the economy and our government through their spending, and the fact that they're the majority of the voters."
What proof or statistics do you have to show that it's true?
"Women account for 80-85% of the discretionary spending in the economy. "
Men and women spend on different things. Could you be more specific?
"The marketers and advertisers know this quite well, which is why the media is full to the gills of stuff trying to appeal to women. Not so much for men outside of the ghetto of sports."
I don't see that when I watch CNN and ABC. Which channels do you watch?
"Even the sci-fi channel has gone all girl friendly since that's the hip, desired demographic."
Really?
"The fundamental problem with all these discussions about "equality" is they're always about *selective* equality. Equality for women in the public sphere, but never equality for men in the private sphere."
That's an improper comparison. Why not do equality for both men and women in both the public and private sphere ?
"At some point people are going to have to get their heads around the fact that the most pornified societies are the most feminized, the most porn-repressive are the most traditional and "patriarchal". (Granted, we're talking about rather soft-core porn here, but the general theme prevails...)"
I don't see any evidence to prove that feminism causes porn. I hear more feminists protesting porn than promoting it.
"When you free women, they don't all strive to become CEO's and Senators. Some find they excel at being attention whores instead."
You're comparing extremes. Most women strive for the same regular careers men have and they don't expect much.
"Anyway, it's difficult to question these choices without sounding at least a little haughty and paternalistic, and when women do it it's easy to write them off as them just being envious of the attention because they're not as hot-looking."
It sounds like you're having some woman problems or other. You're starting to sound like a misogynist.
> What proof or statistics do you have to show that it's true?
Google women spend more than men
> I don't see any evidence to prove that feminism causes porn.
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/23
/feminist-porn-sex-consent-and-getting-off/
> It sounds like you're having some woman problems or other.
> You're starting to sound like a misogynist.
Sorry that the facts can be offensive but I respect women. I may not agree with militaristic feminism that SR would entertain but misogyny is not one of my characteristics. I appreciate your mature response however.
"http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/23
/feminist-porn-sex-consent-and-getting-off/"
It's possible to be pro-feminist and pro-porn but that doesn't talk provide any evidence to your claim that feminism causes porn.
"Sorry that the facts can be offensive but I respect women. I may not agree with militaristic feminism that SR would entertain but misogyny is not one of my characteristics."
I never said you were personally a misogynist. Thanks for clearing up though.
"I appreciate your mature response however."
No problemo. Have a nice day.
So, have they found bin Laden yet? Or is he still comfortable lodged in the Carleton Groups luxury suite in Manhatten?
Was that not the reason for the invasion?
Want to make an interesting move on the global, mainstream diplomatic chessboard? Why not resurrect Mullah Omar's original offer to turn over Osama and Zwahiri for trial under international law (or perhaps under Islamic law) for their role in the 9/11 attacks?
Everything to gain, nothing to lose. All that Barack Obama would have to do is reverse the low point of his historical revisionism during the West Point speech. The Taliban did not refuse to stop harboring Al Qaeda, making this a war of necessity as Obama (and the Bush White House) claimed. Mullah Omar offered to do the exact opposite in the late fall of 2001. The diplomatic olive branch was duly reported in all the major US newspapers. The Bushies cavalierly blew Mullah Omar off so the B-52's could be warmed up instead.
Afghanistan has always been a war of choice, with regime change in Kabul the immediate goal. Mission accomplished, then unaccomplished. A significant baby step in scaling back the violence and withdrawing US troops might be to go back to square one. If it's not about bringing Osama bin Laden to justice, then what's it all about?
Bill from Saginaw
Instead of the traditional moment of silence at public events, it would give far more respect to the fallen to create a new ritual built around a simple question: Why did they die? And then go around the room and allow everyone present to give his or her answer.
The cliche that "they died for our freedom" would soon begin to sound very hollow indeed.
I have the highest respect for the military people that are willing to put their lives on the line because they believe, however wrongly, that they are defending our country and they deserve the greatest honor for their bravery and sacrifice, but the most egregious thing: is when the Military,Industrial,Congressional, Complex uses our brave soldiers for their hegemony, war profits and other faithless and deceitful reasons; especially when most of the war mongers and cheerleaders that condone the killing and maiming of our troops,not to mention the thousands of innocent civilians, are the epitome of cowards and war profiteers, like Cheney who had 5 Vietnam deferments They are guilty of the highest treason to America for the murders of our troops in these illegal wars and are not worthy of shining the shoes of our troops. That is the most evil insult to their military sacrifice.
When people can't wrap their minds around the broader conspiracy, as to why the US is now in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, then they end up pondering, from the wrong angle, the injustice to the US soldier, and the civilians of those assaulted countries.
These are resource wars. Just like the overthrow of Mahammad Mossadegh in the first covert act of the CIA under Eisenhower, was an act, related to Iran wanting to nationalize its own resource, OIL. That ultimately led to the taking of hostages by the Iranian students (e.g. blowback)
The real crime that US citizens, being veteran or civilian, be it family and friends of dead US servicemen and women, should be how is it, that our shadow government along with Big Oil can still manage to hoodwink, snooker, scam, an entire nation into countless bloody wars NEVER fought for the reasons given.
Osama Bin Laden is dead, as Bhutto now dead herself, said in a David Frost interview. Not one current photo, or video of him has emerged for a decade now. It is demonstrable fact, that Osama was at least effectively "let go" by Rumsfeld at Tora Bora in Afghanistan, whose CONVOY then traveled to Pakistan.
The FBI doesn't list Osama bin Laden as a conspirator for the events or "attack" of 9/11. The ONLY high profile suspect implicated in 9/11 was KSM who's "confession" was extracted via water boarding reportedly 183 times, and who's trial military or otherwise STILL has not taken place. No one, not your spouse, or family members, or Senator, or Veteran knows a single thing about the network of co-conspirators or financiers to the biggest "attack" on American soil a decade later.
We would not be in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Pakistan, if it weren't for 9/11. The myriad of LEGITIMATE questions, still unanswered is overwhelming, and yes, still unanswered 10 years later.
Being in Iraq, or remaining in Afghanistan, or flying drones over Pakistan, are all loosely based, or demonstrably fraudulently based, on the need to counter a relatively small group of individuals who to this day, with all of the people in Guantanamo, Bagram, secret prisons, no real information has yet to emerge as to their supposed ongoing nation threatening conspiracy.
And those that have questions about 9/11, that diverge from the official story, are considered nuts by many.
Go figure.
Signed,
Kook, Nuttier than a Squirrel's Thanksgiving Dinner, Troofer, Toon, and…whatever other insult I'd love to add to this list
HUE: Excellent analysis. I don't know what's up with Bill from Saginaw on this. How many times have excellent posters laid out the geo-political advantages of this war, and the fact that for the MIC war becomes its own rationale. How else to defend (what a scam!) the endless money being allotted to the "noble" cause of killing other? Even now, with homeland security's own bridges collapsing, schools being closed down, library hours cut back... who will dare question the beast's claim to HALF the available monies taken in!
Smedley Butler and John Perkins' testaments were not once in a blue moon chronicles of the underbelly of the make-war beast. They are "Exhibit A" documents in the promoting, marketing, and maintaining of global wars, Inc!
Dang. It's one thing when the paid agent provocateurs and their dummy sidekicks try to derail the C.D conversation by acting like drunken detectives. "Gee, it can't be that. We must look elsewhere for answers." It's quite another when the intelligent are willing to buy into the official narratives, in spite of abundant evidence of malfeasance of the most critical sort on the part of those that allege to be their leaders.
"How many times have excellent posters laid out the geo-political advantages of this war, and the fact that for the MIC war becomes its own rationale. How else to defend (what a scam!) the endless money being allotted to the "noble" cause of killing other? Even now, with homeland security's own bridges collapsing, schools being closed down, library hours cut back... who will dare question the beast's claim to HALF the available monies taken in! "
There's nothing in Bill's posts that defends the war. You just had a minor disagreement with him. Big deal.
"It's one thing when the paid agent provocateurs and their dummy sidekicks try to derail the C.D conversation by acting like drunken detectives."
You don't know that someone is a "paid agent provocateur" just because their views don't "pass" your personal litmus tests of progressive. You're entitled to your personal opinions but until you can prove an opinion a fact, it's just your personal belief.
"It's quite another when the intelligent are willing to buy into the official narratives, in spite of abundant evidence of malfeasance of the most critical sort on the part of those that allege to be their leaders."
Until an official story can be proven false, then it stays true. Your opinion, my opinion, and other opinions are irrelevant .
By the way, if you are alluding to the official story of 9/11 remaining true, until being proven false, then I would highly recommend John Farmer's book, that will cast quite a different light on that particular official story, known as The 9/11 Commission Report.
John Farmer, was the Senior Counsel, to the 9/11 Commission, and details how that "official story" can not be relied upon as the truth, because so much disinformation, obfuscation, and demonstrable outright lies were presented to the Commission from the FAA, CIA, FBI, NSA, Pentagon, NORAD, etc. John Farmer, publishes quotes from both the Commission's chairpersons Hamilton and Kean, mirroring his contention that the final report can not be counted upon, such that it was fatally compromised.
In short, there is really no such thing as the "official story" that stands true, since it has been already been challenged from within, by its authors.
"By the way, if you are alluding to the official story of 9/11 remaining true, until being proven false, then I would highly recommend John Farmer's book, that will cast quite a different light on that particular official story, known as The 9/11 Commission Report."
I thought she was referring to more than just 9/11. I lived in NYC when 9/11 happened. My family and I moved to Buffalo in 2003 after being the last child to finish high school that year and go to college but I don't know much about 9/11 so I have no inclination of supporting or opposing either side on this issue. Thanks for the recommendation and I'll pick up that book. I hope I can find it.
"In short, there is really no such thing as the "official story" that stands true, since it has been already been challenged from within, by its authors."
Interesting take but that brings me to this question and I refer to the 9/11 debate as an example. If the 9/11 insider story wins out and disproves the currently official story, then doesn't the winning side take over as the official story?
Actually, the name "official" is really beside the point. Replace "official" with "commonly repeated narrative", or "commonly asserted narrative", it really doesn't matter what that story is called.
How about, the truth. Seeking objective truth. Hard to find amidst the myriad currents of powerful interest always cashing in on deceit, but bloody worth the struggle.
Some are satisfied to tell, or believe a story that is not true. That fact, is without a doubt an example of objective truth.
A final score of a football game, is another example of objective truth.
Events occurred on 9/11, in space and time. Exacting truth, in as much as is possible from our place in time looking back, will be almost certainly not 100% complete or accurate, but to the extent to which, a conviction to know the truth of what happened that day, can remain a burning desire in a great number of Americans, will be to the extent there remains at least a practical hope, that those objective truths can be ferreted out, and amassed into a "more true" or "mostly true" story, narrative, account, record…you name it.
Our collective best future, demands it.
"How about, the truth. Seeking objective truth. Hard to find amidst the myriad currents of powerful interest always cashing in on deceit, but bloody worth the struggle."
That would clear up a lot of mysteries and could lead us to the right solutions.
"Events occurred on 9/11, in space and time. Exacting truth, in as much as is possible from our place in time looking back, will be almost certainly not 100% complete or accurate, but to the extent to which, a conviction to know the truth of what happened that day, can remain a burning desire in a great number of Americans, will be to the extent there remains at least a practical hope, that those objective truths can be ferreted out, and amassed into a "more true" or "mostly true" story, narrative, account, record…you name it."
I've read a lot of comments on the 9/11 infighting on this site and others. It was wrong of Sabocat and ardent to call you names just because you didn't side with the insider. Justice Arcs and Erroll have debated with jakenewton on 9/11. I didn't think that Justice Arcs had ever won over Jake while I thought that Erroll made a better case that 9/11 was an insider job. What I'm trying to say is that while I agree with what you said, the style in which each individual on each side gives their side of the story can strengthen or distort the truth. For me personally, I don't know whose side to go on. NC-Tom made a good case that up to a certain level, it can be easily proven that 9/11 was an insider's job but the closer one gets to investigating, the harder it is to prove or disprove one side or the other. I would like to see a fair trial but the kangaroo courts will not make it easy so I guess we're all left debating this amongst ourselves. But just to let you know, I stand neutral on the issue and I respect everyone's position.
Thanks for the feedback.
Your fairness relative to this understandably emotionally charged issue, is indeed refreshing.
Thanks.
Geraldo Rivera has a confession to make.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/geraldo-much-open-minded-911-campaign/
And it's one, two, three..What're we fightin' for?
Don't ask me I don't give a damn,
Next stop is, uh, Afghanistan,
Then it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee, we're all gonna die!
As a combat veteran from an era long ago, I still remember that song, every verse....
What sacrifice?
"What sacrifice? certainly not the American people's. U.S. citizens seem to have only one thing in mind and that is to have their taxes cut. They don't mind sending young men and women to third world countries to be maimed and die , but don't raise their taxes.Spend trillions of dollars killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people, but don't raise their taxes, let thousands of U.S. soldiers, civilian men women and children, lose their minds from being involved in unjust wars,but don't raise their taxes.
Support the troops but don't raise taxes! Americans are willing to sacrifice young troops but not a penny of their money. The troops should all rebel and demand to come home. They are being made fools of by the freedom isn't free crowd. Freedom is not the issue in these wars. Profit for the rich is the only reason they are killing and maiming and being killed and maimed.
Pierre Tristam,
I first read the novel =Andersonville= by MacKinlay Kantor, in 1956, the year it won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction; I was 13. On average, I re-read this book once a decade. It is one of the most important books for Americans to read. Why?
It provides an interesting perspective upon =war=. It shows what atrocious things human beings were and are capable of doing to each other - even though they shared the same language and religion, even the same genes. Crawling home to Wisconsin from Alabama was no different or better than getting back home from any foreign location to the shores of the USA. This was the point of MacKinlay Kantor's book =Glory For Me=.
I don't want any person to be President of the United States who has not read =Andersonville=. But, I'm sure we have one.
Americans also need to read some text recorded from the Trials at Nuremberg. No war must ever be examined in absence from the context of history.
And, ultimately, that history goes back to the hypothetical Primordial Soup, where organic molecules competed for guanine, cytosine, adenine, and thymine in order to replicate.
Reporting from Outside the Box, Trylon.
Quoting Trylon: "I don't want any person to be President of the United States who has not read =Andersonville=. But, I'm sure we have one."
I doubt that any president since JFK has read much of anything, to say nothing about members of congress.
Trylon, I'm a bit older than you and not as intellectual, but definitely Outside the Box as well.
You may recall the advertisement (from too long ago) with the appeal: 'SEND ME A MAN WHO READS'. Do you recollect who sponsored that ad?