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Indians and Immigrants
All of our people all over the country-except the pure-blooded Indians-are immigrants or descendants of immigrants, including even those who came over here on the Mayflower.
—Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Campaign speech November 4, 1944
It is too late for Native Americans (or Indians as they were then called) to enact anti-immigration laws although they have probably wished many times over the last four hundred years that they had thought of it as the earlier, uninvited and, therefore, presumptively illegal, immigrants were arriving. They probably view current events with a mixture of regret that they didn’t think of it, and amazement at how descendants of those uninvited and illegal immigrants are treating the current crop. It was brought to mind because of the news that nearly 20 state legislature are eagerly awaiting the start of the 2011 sessions in order to mimic Arizona’s assault on the illegal immigrant.
Arizona’s assault came in the form of enactment of what might be called the “Look and Stop” statute. Among other things, it gives police the right to ask anyone whom they stop to provide proof of legal residency. Absent proof, the illegal immigrant is deported. Arizona was not the first to attack the problems posed by illegal immigrants. In 2006 the citizens of Hazelton, Pennsylvania attacked illegal immigration in a creative way although one that was ultimately thrown out by a federal court.
Hazelton’s 2006 ordinance provided that a landlord would be fined $1000 for each illegal immigrant renting property from the landlord. Any business that employed illegal immigrants would lose its business license. Merchants were prohibited from selling merchandise to illegal aliens thus depriving the aliens of the right to buy, for example, groceries. All city documents were to be in English thus, among other salutary results, removing the need for the annoying telephone message that asks the caller to indicate by pressing a number on the keypad, what language is preferred. Hazelton’s ordinance was ultimately struck down by a federal court but those wanting to put illegal immigrants in their place (which is any place but here) have continued their efforts and two highly creative solutions to this problem have made news in recent days-one in Arizona and one in Nebraska.
Arizona’s newest proposal is brought to us courtesy of Russell Pierce, the author of the Look and Stop statute. Believing that the sins of the father should be visited on the children, he has proposed a law that would strip citizenship from children born to illegal immigrants in the United States. The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution has a slightly different take on the rights of those children. It provides that: “All persons, born . . . in the United States. . . are citizens of the United States . . . .” It “bars any state from making or enforcing any law that takes away the privileges or immunities of citizens.” Mr. Pierce is not impressed. Explaining his proposal he says that: “granting citizenship to anyone born in the U.S. encourages illegal immigrants to come to this country to give birth and secure full rights for their children.”
Mr. Pierce’s analysis differs somewhat from Arizona Governor Jan Brewer’s analysis. On June 25 she said: “I believe today, under the circumstances that we’re facing, that the majority of the illegal trespassers that are coming into the state of Arizona are under the direction and control of organized drug cartels and they are bringing drugs in. There’s strong information to us that they come as illegal people wanting to come to work. Then they are accosted and they become subjects of the drug cartel.” Of course, it is possible that both are correct. Running drugs does not preclude procreation.
For activity on a more local level we turn to Fremont, Nebraska. In a special election held on June 21st, the good citizens of that town adopted an ordinance that will certainly rid it of illegal immigrants, assuming it survives expected court challenges.
The “ordinance”: provides that anyone wanting to rent a place to live must first go to city hall and obtain a license that permits the prospective tenant to rent. The official responsible for issuing the license will determine the residency status of the applicant and if the resident is illegal, no license will issue. Although it is hard to imagine illegal immigrants being able to work in Fremont since they will be denied housing, on the off chance that some of them decide to commute, the ordinance says employers must use the federal E-verify database to ensure the prospective employee is a legal resident.
Contemplating the foregoing, native Americans may well, when in pensive mood, wonder how different their lives might have been had they adopted these progressive approaches to keeping out and ridding themselves of the unwanted back in the 1600s.
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210 Comments so far
Show AllLiving as I do in Arizona, it's very easy to think that America is a fascist country. That other states want to copy Arizona just confirms my suspicions. Actually, there is nothing wrong with Arizona that getting rid of a few million 'legal' alien gringos wouldn't help.
"I have been requesting that all of you gringos pack your bags and take your chances back in the Old Country."
and take your horses with you.
And as someone whose ancestors came here directly from London, I certainly agree with your statements. It would've been better, however, if you hadn't resorted to misogynist, ageist comments about Brewer, and just criticized her on the merits instead.
That's irrelevant. And no one was challenging your right to say what you want - just your judgement in how you went about it.
Yup - that's exactly what I'm doing. Telling you to be "nice", because I'm white and you're Native American. How insightful of you. Or I could just be someone who agrees with your general sentiment, but not your sexist way of expressing it.
Nah..... probably not, huh.
(and I in no way buy that you're a woman, by the way.)
Despite your claim of being "Native American" I think you're just another angry mestizo.
Who are your people? Do you belong to a tribe in Mexico? Are you married to a Mexican?
A lot of what you say doesn't add up. I realize it's part of the mestizo conflict, most know neither their indigenous or European roots.
I'm willing to bet you have European blood and you're incapable of reconciling that fact but you like to give the impression you're in self-imposed exile.
Oh, and the "pack your bags" routine, I'm afraid to inform you the "white devil" isn't going away any time soon. You'll be taking that to the grave, sister.
Hi Shill,
Who do you work for? Maybe that little organization in Langley? Or is it AIPAC?
The Native Americans are not native to North and South America either. That is proven fact. Did you know that your roots derived in Asia and even Africa? Mix in a bit of South Pacific Islander and you got your "old country".
The main point about this brewing conflict is that it serves the wealthiest.
And stop with the "there is no left". Cut it out!! Here are just a few sites and people of the left:
Katrina Vanden Heuvel - The Nation
Michael Moore - Michaelmoore.com
Common Dreams
Ralph Nader
Raw Story
Truthdig.org
Chris Hedges
Dennis Kucinich
Cynthia McKinney
and many many more....
None of these people are Right of center or center. They are liberal left.
They are the ones who keep backing such candidates as Bill Clinton, Hilary Clinton, Barak Obama, John Kerry, Al Gore, even when the voting records of these people proves they are not left. The Left has been deceived and they have bought the lie and then they have this shocked look on their face when their candidate, such as Obama, refuses to go after the torturers, the corporate criminals, the parasitic bankers, and proceeds to pass more laws that favor big business. This is why many people cannot stand them anymore. Because they keep backing right wing democrats. They don't get it. They don't understand that the government is thoroughly corrupted and that the democratic process has been muted.
The same can be said for the right. Traditional Conservatives are nothing like Bush, Cheney, or any of the Neo-cons. They too are lost and have been lead down a war-mongering NON-conservative warring agenda.
The country has been hi-jacked by the committee of 300 and the selection process has been corrupted.
Go back to your cubicle now.
Your points about the ancestry of Native Americans--do they justify what the Europeans (coming as conquerers while at the same time holding up the banner of the christian ethos) did to them? Were the aborigines of many nations not here first? The "right to conquest" cannot hold if on the other hand you claim a christian ethos, now can it in all honesty? Why did the European invaders of this land (known as Turtle Island) not have their revolution in Europe? Surely some (not all) had just grievances against their masters but to come clear across the ocean and kill, maim the natives and steal their land while at the same time dragging Africans against their will to come and slave on these stolen lands does not cut it. It was wrong to say the least. Why not admit it? Why not recognize that both indigenous people and African americans are still living today these very crimes? Why not recognize it? You fear the Right too much. As far as the so-called "left" the people you have listed are too invested in this system. This is a problem for all of us.
"The past is not dead. It isn't even past". (Faulkner)
I'm talking about the Mexican situation that is enfolding in the SW. I have never denied that there was a holocaust against the native Americans. My ancestors did not kill any Native Americans. Both of my sets of Grandparents came over in the early 1900's. One set from Ireland and the other set, a Swedish woman married to a German, came over about the time of WWI. Throughout the 1900's people from all over, including Asia, SA, ME, etc immigrated to the U.S.
The people on the left that I listed was an example that there is a left column in this country, because someone is saying there is no left. (Obama, Clintons, Gores, Weiners, etc, are not Left...this is the delusion that real leftists cannot understand) They are largely mis-informed and consequently are serving the interests of the oligarchy that controls the US, Canada, and Mexico.
It is good to be able to point out that ones grandparents were not involved in destroying native america but a point is, nevertheless, being missed: the power structure is still white in the USA (Turtle Island) and those that invaded were whites from Europe and this paved the way to white privilege to all subsequent European immigrants regardless as to when they arrived. I mean no disrespect and understand this is difficult to recognize.
"nevertheless, being missed: the power structure is still white in the USA (Turtle Island) and those that invaded were whites from Europe and this paved the way to white privilege to all subsequent European immigrants regardless as to when they arrived."
Whatever ethnicity you are advocating just hasn't come up with anything that can compete with the European model.
In fact, you, ardent, readbetween and all the other shamnesty hacks don't offer anything other then screaming for a place at the table even though you bring nothing.
Please tell me what your culture can bring other than a permanent underclass.
Speaking of readbetween, has anyone heard from her today, ardent has been working overtime without her. She reminds me of one of my favorite country song's - 'Is it cold in here or is it just you'.
I kinda miss not being told to pack my bag's.
Regardless, I'll never have to live in Mexico.
Yeah, good luck with that........
I guess the thought of me employing Hispanics, illegal at that, rattles your little 'Me native victim, you gringo racist' program. I'm sorry, were you going to tell us how many Hispanics you employ,?
Hmmm, looks like "Badger" and "annak" are the same person or two flying monkeys sent in from Fox Noose to troll around here. Thanks for giving yourself away, moron.
"Whatever ethnicity you are advocating just hasn't come up with anything that can compete with the European model." Hurrah for the aborigines!
illegal immigration is the single one issue that is waking up americans to who are the corrupt..
lowering americans wages by running in illegals by the rich and their bought off govt is NOW being understood by the people..
even in liberal mass they KNOW.. they thumbed down dying ted kennedy and rejected his picked person and voted ina repubican.. because of speaking of amnesty which would keep illegals here and continueing to lower americans wages to enrich the rich
ted kennedy even while dying LOST all of mass cause of this issue.. they would have loved to stay in love with him but when he talked amnesty they then knew he was a traitor to help enrich the rich by lowering americans wages
*yawn*
Where are Apple's IPads and Ipods made? Take a look at the label of the clothes you are wearing. Where are they made? Who owns the shares in those companies that make the Ipods, Ipads, clothes?
The planet is the old country. Everything else is labels and distractions.
No not really. For EVERYONE Africa is the old country.
And speaking of Old Countries, Africa itself emigrated from Mother Pangea!
No doubt it assimilated or annihilated many worthy smaller land masses, now lost in prehistory, in the process. ;)
Another politician has claimed that "FBI agents wishing to remain unamed" have arrested a number of Illegal Immigants that are in fact Iranian/Arabic pretending to be Mexican and who are tatooed with tatoos In Farsi and Arabic languages that call for a Jihad on the US.
They further allege that Hizbollah works in conjunction with Mexican druglords.
Tattooing the body is forbidden in the Islamic faith. The Koran states that tatooing the body is a Satanic Ritual.
Identity politic-ridden claptrap. The Right wants to get rid of all the browns, the Left wants to get rid of all the whites, all while the power elites couldn't care less about any of us.
That whole thing about Native Americans pining for immigration laws centuries ago is SUCH a cliche and so very reactionary. I love how Mr. Brauchli, an affluent white academic, decides to take it upon himself to speak for Native Americans and encourage them to loathe other rank and file people. I swear folks of Brauchli's ilk are like Charles Manson, who wanted a race war to break out so that him and his clan could come back out of hiding after 50 years and rule over people he ultimately saw as inferior.
Wishing white folks would just go away is really right-wing, fascist thought flipped over. That's all it is. It's counterproductive, and deep down those spewing that nonsense know it full well. That's the idea!
If we actually did find a humane, equitable solution to this, you people wouldn't know what to do with yourselves! And the solution are there but do not involve Draconian laws, fences, walls, disenfranchisement, race hatred, mass deportations or imprisonment.
NOBODY KNOWS what would have happened or what the Americas would be like had there never been colonization. All of those dead will never be resurrected. The Native Americans supposedly wishing that all the white people never came probably wouldn't even exist since their great-grandparents probably would have never met each other.
People like Jan Brewer, Russell Pierce, and Joe Arpaio don't give a piss about maintaining some sort of cultural identity or protecting white people from anything.
Arizona wants to privatize their prisons. Guess what SB1070 does? It creates an excuse to lock lots of people up and therefore make money for those who own human warehouses!
You know what I wish? That the ethnofascists on both the Right and The Left would just go to an island and kill each other off, but you'll never do that since you're all in cahoots with each other.
P.S. I also love when people act as if immigrants are taking jobs from people. The ones saying that are usually soft, middle-class people who work in cubicles. These people never blame the corporatists though.
A Libertarian Socialist Democracy in the U.S. is possible. A clear majority wants it. Most of those who don't reside in the ivory towers, looking down on everyone else, wondering how they can agitate the 99% and make them turn on one another.
Actually he does bring up some very valid points. And from what I gather he is looking at this as a very difficult situation, which is true, and that those on the left and right have their simple "fixes".
First, those for more laws on illegal immigrants, most likely have a much more devious agenda. What they are doing is getting the American people, via the illegal immigrant debate, to approve of more surveillance on themselves. Because that is what will happen....National ID cards....then finger prints, eye scans, etc etc etc....
They are using the issue to bring in even more totalitarian laws that will effect everyone. Fact is, the World Government, which will be based on Financial Monopoly and the "few" lording over the many, cannot succeed without a totalitarian system in place. This is not "conspiracy theory". Even the top elites have openly and publicly talked of their "utopia" they are attempting. (utopia only for them).
Second, the "left" is as much to blame. They have been the ones spreading this stuff around about "we are all immigrants"...etc. It is true that White's are DESCENDED from people who never had permission from the natives to take their lands. But, as it is, 400 years later, it would be hard to send us all packing.
The fact is, many of us whites do not own any land here anyways. We are merely tenants. The banks and corporations own most of the lands within the US...or the government does (which, since government and corporation are one and the same now, then it is true that corporations and banks own most of it).
Third, there is the issue that 20,000,000 Mexicans are here illegally. And that is what this is about, Mexicans. You won't hear people talking about illegal immigrants from other nations, its just about Mexicans. All their laws they want to pass will only sharpen the swords. Mexicans stick by one another. They are not going quietly into the night. I don't want to see a blood bath, and therefore it is imperative that people put their emotions away and look to solutions that will benefit everyone.
I don't have the numbers but I do know that many if not most Mexicans are also part European. I have worked and lived within hispanic communities. I have been told by Mexicans that inside Mexico there is a very huge problem with discrimination towards the "browner" or more indigenous Mexicans. Guatamalans and others who have to travel through Mexico have talked about the dangers.
Some of these Lefties who speak from their gated communities are not being fair. They are not the ones impacted by the 20,000,000 who have flooded in. So, of course they are pro-legalization, without regard to the many Americans affected by the situation. You won't hear them speak of American's who are on waiting lists for State Healthcare, where illegal immigrants are allowed to wait for also. This is a fact in my state as I called my Governors office when I heard a rumor that illegal immigrants were allowed on the waiting list for health care, the same waiting list I have been on for 1 1/2 years. Of course this makes a person a little "upset".
You won't find the likes of Katrina Vanden Heuvel on a waiting list for health care. You won't hear her speak of this at all.
I am politically neither Democrat or Republican. I cannot stand either party as they are both run, funded and operated by the same people. The left irks me more these days, however, because they keep voting for these people like Obama, even when it is clear during the guys campaign that he was going to expand war, do nothing about Bush Draconian laws passed, etc. And he did nothing about torture, which is still going on. At least you know what you are getting with the Repugs.
Dems are backstabbing liars, who try to fit this warm and fuzzy and compassionate bill, while they stab the American people over and over....now they are going after the Social security.....something most these "Progressives" care nothing about because most of the leaders in the democratic party are millionaires and have their pockets open to corporate bennies.
The illegal immigrant issue is being USED by both dems and repugs for their own agenda. They care nothing about the millions of Mexicans who find themselves trapped in poverty due to NAFTA (passed by Bill Clinton) and hence without anywhere to go to make a living. They care nothing for these White American working class people who have been victimized with lower wages and no access to health care.
This is also a distraction. Divide and conquer. Keep the little guy/gal fighting other little guy/gal. While they walk off with nation's bounty, and build their world government, a Fascist Neo-Feudalism, while everyone is looking the other way.
That's the problem with "What I FEEL"... It is not based on fact and reasoning. There is no way you could possibly know "how I feel" about my life based on my analysis of the situation that is brewing in the SW.
There's no room for every Euro-American in Europe, and we all know that the immigrants in Europe aren't leaving. The Mexicans that are here in the States don't want to leave, nor do any of the other immigrants. So why don't we just get creative and find a way to cooperate? Too many people hate cooperation and worship competition.
"Too many people hate cooperation and worship competition."
That is exactly what the power/wealthy elite count on.
Keeping the middle & lower classes fighting with each other assures that their methods continue.
In a global economy, which IS their goal, the power elite love immigration, legal or otherwise.
I miss George Carlin.
George Carlin ~ The American Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
Franklin D Roosevelt was right, but I thought FDR had said this earlier. Regardless, he was right on the mark.
AD
Franklin D Roosevelt was right, but I thought FDR had said this earlier. Regardless, he was right on the mark.
AD
I re"Rocky has a problem with anybody who tries to defend undocumented Latino workers, ReadBetween, which means that he reaches utterly bizarre and reactionary conclusions like this one sent out from his perch in Pittsburgh..."
No I don't have a problem with people defending the rights on the undocumented, and you know that. Read my posts more carefully you snide asshole.
Does everyone commenting on this site have to be a member of VDARE or La Raza? There's no middle ground.
Ethnoextremists the lot of you.
Readbetween-All you do is spew venom. And you call me insane?
People on either the right or the left want ethnic cleansing. I want none of that.
I only invoked Manson to get people to think. That's all. Saying that America would be better off if all the white people left is the very same line of thinking that suggests that non-whites need to be sent away to save the country. You people don't get how you all fail to engage the masses, or maybe you do because you don't want to. You fear the change you claim to seek.
Calling me a racist is rather reactionary itself.
"And anyone who disagrees with him is automatically a highly placed member on the Forbes list--even if that person doesn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of--or lives out of 3 suitcases, like I have done for more than 10 years."
You've admitted to coming from privilege you stupid bitch and you do nothing but stir race hatred. People on the top have always done that and had something to gain from it. All of your posts revolve around why you despite Americans and whites. You never have anything intelligent to say about the environment, the economy, world affairs, nothing. All your sad, sick, bitter little world comes down to is your distortion of innocent, righteous, thoroughly decent indigenous people and sinister, repugnant "gringos". That's your little world.
Stupid, snobby bitch. Go fuck off. Your fantasy of an all-brown U.S. will never happen. Go play with your friends on AmRen or some shit.
I really need to stop reading the comments here. It's all such swill and self-important BS.
You people just don't want a real, beneficial movement. You want a subculture and nothing more.
la la land- Whoever you are, you are my hero for that post. Great stuff. That's exactly how I see it. Thank God someone understands me around here.
I do not want Mexicans or any other immigrants sent away or jailed or shot at or walled off or fenced in, and I think I have been clear about that in the time I've been on CD. I just want socioeconomic justice for all Americans regardless of whether they live in Harlem, East L.A., or the Appalachias. I am not angry at immigrants, just those who try to exploit them, their plight, and try to pit them against everyone else. I am no fan of the paleocon Right. Pat Buchanan can go rot in hell along with Sam Francis too.
Do I really think the author of the article is Mansonesque? Not really. He's just a snobby, pampered, insulated "liberal" from an Ivy League school who has no real stake in positive social change and therefore wants to impress his colleagues by coming off as a "radical".
When things get real bad, you can guarantee people like Vanden Huevel, Brauchli, Hannity, and Coulter will be able to afford bail and go live abroad. Most other Americans won't be able to.
"Charles Manson seems a lot more sane than Rocky."
See? You would say something like that. You people are all kindred spirits in that you love turmoil above all else. You wouldn't have it any other way. If anything, you wish for the current state of affairs to be more chaotic than it is now in order to get people to follow you like a Pied Piper.
"Hey, your skin looks like mine. Follow me. I'll look out for you."
Meanwhile, we all know that you'd just fuck over your own anyway. That is if you're not a rich, old white man in drag, benefitting from Mexico's poverty since it enables you to live like royalty yet spend like a cheapskate. You're probably at best 1/8 Native American or some shit. People like you always claim your little sliver of indigenous blood when you hit the skids or whatever.
Yes there is a LEFT you heinous harpy. They are the silent majority but are not organized. The actual organized Left is primarily a subculture of upper-middle class white people.
If you're talking about political parties, yes the D's and R's do not differ much from each other.
"What I FEEL from your post is that you are feeling sorry for yourself because you are white and yet you don't have the privileges you believe you should have for being white."
See that's what many people like you do, people who have been "successful" which you've admitted to being under your many guises; you attribute my political views to personal faliure, as if I would be some rightwinger or centrist if I had all this money.
I don't want any privileges for myself because I am white. I want the whole list of socialist reforms for everyone, including myself, my friends, which include people of all races, EVERYONE!
All guttersnipes like you care about is division. That's all. Your world breaks down to indigenous vs. gringo.
Mine is simple too. My world breaks down to haves vs. have-nots. I'd say mine is a more effective way of looking at things since it includes the human family and doesn't leave anyone out. Yours just alienates people who should be on the side of Progress and tricks others into thinking that everyone who looks like them cares about their best interests.
Btw, I only discuss my issues to show that I am a real person who is actually affected by these issues. I may not be as poor off as some, but if things are as bad for me from where I'm sitting, it's only worse for people who are in even lower-income brackets.
And what I really resent is when people like you, people who come off as radicals yet have obviously been pampered, then whip out the bootstrap card and then lecture me about working hard, as if I have never done that.
Even young people with degrees are having it rough now. They're in debt up to their asses and can't afford their own places or find gainful work.
Why do I waste my time here? Bye. Have fun hating the evil gringo. It only encourages them to hate the undocumented which gets us nowhere and is where I suspect many lefties really want the movement to go; nowhere.
the now passed robert byrd was strong against any amnesty for illegal immigration..
this one issue is the first issue to unite both republicans and democrats in the masses.....and now this issue is strongly supported by 80% of americans and is growing NO AMNESTY and STOP illegal immigration
both of these have figured out that the rich has bought off the govt to try to trick and fool to run in illegals to lower wages on the citizens..
if obama or the govt keeps talking about amnesty or against the arizona law... there will be a revolution..
this issue is what has woke up americans to see the govt is so CROOKED.... what can be done now when they have awakened and NOW know this??
We would all love to bash the immigrants but until we know why the immigrants are actually here in the first place, calls to stop illegal immigration are futile. If Home Depot and Walmart want cheap parts and cheap labor, they will hire plenty of immigrants for cheaps just to make the profits and give some lower prices to entice customers like you and me. How do we solve that problem? Do you really expect that halting illegal immigration will halt the flow of cheap labor? How about defeating the capitalist system that made this possible? Why do Americans wake up only when it's the immigrants but not the capital that is flowing?
You rant and rant about immigration, yet say nothing about where your clothes, where your shoes are made.
That's where your jobs have gone. While the people who own shares in those companies, are getting ever richer, by taking advantage ultra low labour costs. Rich people LOVE it if capital can move freely, but labour cannot. Rich people LOVE ever tighter laws on freedom of movement of humans.
BINGO
This is what it's ALL about.
rfloh, what you say about the movement of capital vs. labor is true of capitalists in general. However, I wouldn't say that it's the rich people who are upset about illegal immigrants. It's often those in the middle class and below. And it's not just in the USA - it's all over. In Europe, it's openly taking on racist overtones in many countries - against immigrants. India is supposed to have AT LEAST 10 million illegal migrants from Bangladesh (some claim it's as much as 20 million), living and working in various parts of India. China treats desperate people who escape North Korea into China as "illegal immigrants", rather than as refugees. I don't consider that there's anything sacrosanct about national boundaries. But when extreme capitalism and extreme inequalities in wealth and income enter the picture, the situation becomes a bit more complex. I made a separate post about the mess inside Mexico - due to inequalities. I think that is the primary factor, although I'm not sure what outsiders can do about it.
It is the rich, and their paid agents, who are the ones stoking things up. They are the ones constantly pretending to be seriously concerned about job losses, constantly agitating about immigrants, while NEVER mentioning the deliberate (im)balance between capital and labour, an imbalance that results in capital being overpriced and labour being grossly underpriced.
As for Europe, much of Europe has always had racist issues, racist issues that were concealed in the past as they weren't many minorities. People on the American left don't realise that much of Europe, especially countries such as Italy and Austria, is actually (much) more (openly) racist than the US.
Some examples: in Germany, up till the early 90s, black soccer players had to deal routinely with fans, including sometimes fans of the teams they were playing for, making monkey sounds at them. Booing them.
In Italy, up to this day, black soccer players have to deal routinely with fans, including sometimes fans of their own teams booing them, making monkey sounds at them.
Black players representing English teams, even in recent years, have often been booed, had monkey sounds made at them, when their teams play in Europe.
"India is supposed to have AT LEAST 10 million illegal migrants from Bangladesh (some claim it's as much as 20 million), living and working in various parts of India. China treats desperate people who escape North Korea into China as "illegal immigrants", rather than as refugees. I don't consider that there's anything sacrosanct about national boundaries. But when extreme capitalism and extreme inequalities in wealth and income enter the picture, the situation becomes a bit more complex"
Extreme capitalism, where capital is free to do anything its owners want, while labour is controlled ever more tightly simplifies the issue, if only people dare to look.
Look at the price of an Apple IPad / IPod. Now, look at how much Chinese workers at Foxconn, the company Apple uses to make them get paid. Look at the disgusting contracts that those workers have to sign, contracts that in America or the west would be seen as akin to if not slavery, serfdom at least. Or look at western companies in China threatening to move out of Chinese localities that want to raise the minimum wage / impose laws that improve working conditions, to Chinese localities that are willing to tolerate worse working conditions.
Then look at Apple's share price.
Do we all have to be vengeful or can we learn to grow up and work things out? Let's face it. What happened a long time ago was wrong but we don't tell people to pack their bags and go back because most of them were born here. I am an Indian American. I was born here in the US but my parents came from India because at that time fewer employers respected their top quality educational background. They could have moved to Europe but at that time during the 1970s, racism had to be solved while racism was actually being addressed in the US. I visited India and in some ways I sound like an American and in other ways, I sound a little too Indian. So where do I go? I don't know but I still think there's room for improvement here and after my visit in 2008, I don't want to be another part of the problem there given population being too high to sustain. That said, Europe would be facing the same problem if we had to throw everyone who came from Europe to the Americas back to Europe. Immigration is not the problem. The problem is when either the immigrants do the mistreating such as settlers from the past or the current native residents such as those in Arizona doing the mistreating. I would like to remind everyone that sometimes a nation benefits when immigrants come in and help. Foreign doctors came into the country and did what regular doctors could not do before they learned new skills. Immigrants are coming in to the states because we are not prepared to pay higher prices with no guarantee of getting that same work done. Solving the problem isn't easy but bashing immigrants certainly won't help.
You fail to make any distinction between legal and illegal immigration. There are others who share your dream of open borders;
Corporate America has a wet dream whenever it thinks about the 20 to 30 million largely uneducated illegal immigrants already here in the U.S. Open borders gives them an endless supply of cheap labor.
Wal of China Mart and all the rest of the 'big box' stores have the dual benefit of not only cheap labor but customers who will purchase goods made in China. Same apply's for the fast food industry, cheap labor and new consumers. The oil industry enjoys all the new drivers on the road, licensed or not. Corporate America gets the benifits while tax payers foot the bill. The cost of immigration to the U.S. taxpayer in 1997 was a net 70 billion dollars after subtracting taxes paid by illegal immigrants. We have gone from being proud citizen's of a great nation with a certain indentity to bilingual consumers under a corrupt corporate controlled congress awash in campaign contrubutions, fearful of the hyphenated American voter and the blood sucking vampires of special interest groups.
Politicians who exploit immigrants favor open borders. They have encouraged and taught illegal immigrants how to register to vote in national elections. Then pander to them with the promise of immigration reform, code word for amnesty, which never comes. Obama addressed the need for immigration reform this past week. Most politically savvy journalist's from the left and right said it was a dead issue and that the statement was made to soothe the Hispanic brow.
Activists who advocate the destruction of the U.S. favor open borders. They understand the idea of divide and conquer. They would make the fastest growing immigrant group the least educated, least willing to assimilate and hostile to the 'gringo' majority. They would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture and make sure they invest in ethnic identity while establishing the cult of victimology. They would establish activist organizations which would teach them that they are suppressed by the white elite 'Gringos'. Finally, they would make it impossible for anyone to discuss illegal immigration without the fear of having the race-card thrown at them. The term 'racist' or 'hater' effectively ends all intelligent debate and makes it nearly impossible to enforce immigration laws. Any of this sound familiar?
Mexico favors open borders.(northern border only, they arrest and deport anyone entering illegally from the south) They get to keep professional, educated and skilled citizen's. The U.S. gets everyone that the Mexican government can't support. Once here in the States, they send money back to Mexico, 10 to 21 billion annually.
The drug cartel and the gangbangers favors open borders. For obvious reasons.
The military industrial complex favors open border. 30 million illegal immigrants won't be poking into their business.
Privately held 'for profit' prison systems favor open borders. Their contract allows them to invoice the government and make a handsome profit on each inmate it holds regardless of immigration status. Currently, 24.9% of inmates held in California prisons are illegal immigrants, 40.1% of inmates held in Arizona prisons are illegal immigrants, 29% of inmates held in all federal prisons are illegal immigrants.
The following is part of a speach given by Theodore Roosevelt, 1915;
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American and nothing but an American....There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is to the American people".
"Those hyphenated Americans who terrorize American politicians by threats of the foreign vote are engaged in treason to the American Republic"
Illegal immigration is a red herring. What you fail to do is recognize that immigration is not the problem. We could close all our borders and deport all immigrants from as long as 500 years ago and the politicians, Corporate America, MIC, drug cartels, prison systems, etc... would still find easy ways around the border walls. Wait, they already have. We had open borders before but not the mess we're having today. Focusing on immigrants is exactly what they want you to do. The speech by Teddy Roosevelt that you gave does not necessarily suggest that he would have pushed for harassing immigrants, useless border walls, and immediate deportation. Being an American back then was different from today's cheap and quick demanding style American. I don't see most Americans preparing for the expensive sacrifices they will have to make. Even the Tea Bagging Party uses immigrants to do its painting and decorations so they can have more air time to act stupid on the television.
Demo
I was just about to thank you for responding to my reply of the 3rd. I was thinking you might be someone who could debate an issue without assuming you knew what the hell I was thinking.
First, I work every day, horses and cattle won't take holidays or weekends off, I've tried. Unlike your little friend, you won't see me on CD 24/7. As far as 92 degree weather goes, that would be 8 degrees cooler than here. The comment you made about me not volunteering to help was ironic, I was out working with my own group of Hispanics this morning. I was helping them feed so they could get back to their family sooner. How many Hispanics do you employ Demo, ....ardent? Before you reach for the 'expoited workers' card, the ranch pay's the Hispanics and gringos the same hourly rate, they are paid equally. You did get one thing right when you wrote "I don't know Badger".
Keep sharing those bad moments with ardent.
"I was thinking you might be someone who could debate an issue without assuming you knew what the hell I was thinking."
I have met plenty of Americans who think just like you.
"The comment you made about me not volunteering to help was ironic, I was out working with my own group of Hispanics this morning. I was helping them feed so they could get back to their family sooner. "
I obviously don't know you personally but can only assume that you're like the average American in their thinking. Now if you really are what you say you are, then I apologize but I had no clue you were in that status. Still, that contradicts the tone of your earlier replies but I will leave this to another discussion.
"As far as 92 degree weather goes, that would be 8 degrees cooler than here."
I take it that you must be living in the Southwest where you would be used to such hot weather. I live in the mid-Atlantic region where I don't get 90+ degree weather often so most of us in my area wouldn't be used to it.
"How many Hispanics do you employ Demo"
I don't run a company. I worked but I just finished my last job contract on 6/30/2010 so now I am preparing to look for a new job but don't mind discussing here.
"Before you reach for the 'expoited workers' card, the ranch pay's the Hispanics and gringos the same hourly rate, they are paid equally."
"Keep sharing those bad moments with ardent."
Sir, I didn't share it with just ardent. This is a public forum you know. If you want to be like that idiot retailer I confronted earlier on this site who claims that he is doing "perfect" and supports banksters while blaming consumers, be my guest. It should have been clear to you that I was making a point when I pointed out a terrible moment that I witnessed but I see it isn't. Now I think both of us can agree that the big guys with the big bucks are ready to exploit the immigrants to profit. Where you continue to get it wrong is when you and AnnaK don't realize that you are supporting them by attacking the immigrants who are lucky to be alive after what they have been through.
"Unlike your little friend, you won't see me on CD 24/7."
Sir, I only speak here independently. I understand that some here have friends but I know little about ardent personally.
Hilarious, you see several Mexicans hauling furniture in 92 heat you assume they all do. Purely anecdotal.
On the other hand I saw several Mexicans sitting around drinking beer and listening to mariachi music during the work week, what am I supposed to think?
Next time you're here in New Mexico look at some of the stucco work. Used to be the locals were the artisans of plaster and stucco. They've just about been run out of business by illegals and their employers, who are mostly Mexicans from the last amnesty. Consequently, the stucco looks, well, Mexican. As I've said before, the border is moving north and it ain't gonna' be pretty.
"you see several Mexicans hauling furniture in 92 heat you assume they all do. Purely anecdotal."
Ah, that "anecdotal evidence" attack clause again. Sorry AnnaK but I have years of examples from plenty more incidents that I would gladly go over with you.
"On the other hand I saw several Mexicans sitting around drinking beer and listening to mariachi music during the work week, what am I supposed to think?"
I could easily call yours purely anecdotal too. Now true, I've seen a few too but I've seen plenty more American workers getting drunk and just as socially loafing with their rock'n'roll and country hick music. Think anything you want but even the Mexicans do a dynamically better job on their work despite getting paid less.
"Next time you're here in New Mexico look at some of the stucco work. Used to be the locals were the artisans of plaster and stucco. They've just about been run out of business by illegals and their employers, who are mostly Mexicans from the last amnesty. Consequently, the stucco looks, well, Mexican. As I've said before, the border is moving north and it ain't gonna' be pretty."
The employers are the culprit, not the immigrants in your case. You forgot to also mention that the locals were deprived of their benefits and wages that some either left or got fired by these same employers who looked for immigrants who would know nothing about this. You're hitting the wrong target.
Yes, Mexicans sure can whip whitey's arse in a landscaping contest.
You miss the point entirely.
Higher skilled jobs go to the better educated and competent in work that is high value especially in the technical fields where you will not find many latinos.
As I said before, my engineering graduation class from a New Mexico university had one latino, a dozen or more middle easterners, and a load of anglos. Seems when trig and calculus come along they drop like flies or go to their latino assistance program where they are literally given the answers to the exams. Consequently, their careers are not as "dynamic" as you would like believe.
Their insistence on speaking their language, clinging futilely to there over-rated "values" and BS "culture" and their paranoid insularity has and will condemned them to the underclass that they are so perversely proud of. And its people such as yourself who enable it. Who are the real racists on this issue?
read, we're all "underclass" in one way or another.
You're flailing about with no direction in your replies.
Step back and try to get the higher order thinking going again. That's probably a symptom of living in Mexico too long.
annank BUSTED readbetween the lines... she is finished !!! annank is smart