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The Poll Democrats Need to Know About
Framing, Value-Shifting, the California Budget Crisis, and Why Democrats So Often Act Like Republicans
This is a case study of how inadequate polling can lead Democrats to accept and promote a radical Republican view of reality. This paper compares two polls, one excellent and revealing, the other inadequate, misleading, and counterproductive. The issues raised are framing and value-shifting (where voters shift, depending on the wording of questions, between two contradictory political world-views they really hold, but about different issues). It also discusses how polls can reveal the difference between what words are commonly assumed to mean, versus what they really mean to voters -- and how polls can test this.
It is a truism that poll results can depend on framing. For example, the NY Times reported last month on a NYT/CBS Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell poll on whether "homosexuals" or "gay men and lesbians" should be allowed to serve openly in the military. Seventy-nine percent of Democrats said they support permitting gay men and lesbians to serve openly. Fewer Democrats however, just 43 percent, said they were in favor of allowing homosexuals to serve openly. That's a 36 percent framing shift on the same literal issue, but not surprising since the words evoked very different frames, one about sex and the other about rights. Newsworthy for the NY Times, but hardly earthshaking.
But a recent poll by David Binder, perhaps the premier California pollster, showed a framing shift of deep import for Democrats -- a shift of 69 percent on the same issue, depending on the framing. It was noteworthy not just because of the size of the framing shift on the main question, but because the shift was systematic. Roughly, around 18 percent of voters showed that their values are not fixed. They think BOTH like liberals and conservatives -- depending on how they understand the issue. With a liberal value-framing, they give liberal answers; with a conservative value-framing, they give conservative answers. What is most striking is that conservatively framed poll questions are all too often written by Democrats thinking they are neutral. The result is a Democratic move to the right for what are thought to be "pragmatic" reasons, but which are actually self-defeating.
Here is the background.
California is the only state with a legislature run by minority rule. Because it takes a 2/3 vote of both houses to either pass a budget or raise revenue via taxation, 33.4 percent of either house can block the entire legislative process until it gets what it wants. At present 63 percent of both houses are Democrats and 37 percent are far-right Republicans who have taken the Grover Norquist pledge not to raise revenue and to shrink government till it can be drowned in a bathtub. They run the legislature by saying no. This has led to gridlock, huge deficits from lack of revenue, and cuts so massive as to threaten the viability of the state.
Unfortunately, most Californians are unaware of the cause of the crisis, blaming "the legislature," when the cause is only 37 percent of "the legislature," the 37 percent that runs the legislature under minority rule.
I realized last year that the budget crisis was really a democracy crisis, and that a ballot initiative that could be passed by only a majority could eliminate the 2/3 rules, replacing minority rule by majority rule. The idea was to bring democracy to California. Only two words are needed to be changed in the state Constitution, with "two-thirds" becoming "a majority" in two paragraphs, one on the budget and the other on revenue. The changes could be described in a 14-word, single-sentence initiative that went to the heart of the matter -- democracy. It is called The California Democracy Act:
All legislative actions on revenue and budget must be determined by a majority vote.
One would think voters would like the idea of democracy -- and a ballot initiative they could actually understand. And they do. David Binder of DBR Research recently conducted a poll showing that likely voters support it by a 73-to-22 percent margin -- a difference of 51 percent!
There were 800 randomly selected likely voters, with a ±3.5 percent margin of error -- and 53 questions. In short, it was a thorough and responsible poll.
In California, the Attorney General gets to write the "title and summary" -- the description of the initiative that actually appears on the ballot. At present, the Attorney General is Jerry Brown, who is running for Governor. He had announced that he was against getting rid of the 2/3 rule for taxes, though in favor of a majority for budget alone. The result would make Democrats responsible for the budget, but with no extra money to put in it, they would be presiding over the further decline of the state.
When the Democracy Act came across Brown's desk, he personally penned the following title and summary:
Changes the legislative vote requirement necessary to pass the budget, and to raise taxes from two-thirds to a simple majority. Unknown fiscal impact from lowering the legislative vote requirement for spending and tax increases. In some cases, the content of the annual state budget could change and / or state tax revenues could increase. Fiscal impact would depend on the composition and actions of future legislatures.
Instead of the original initiative text, Brown's wording would appear on the ballot if it qualified, and would have to appear on all petitions. This wording uses the word "taxes" three times paired with the verbs "raise" and "increase," as well as the conservative phrase for vilifying liberals "spending and tax increases."
When DBR Research polled voters on both the original initiative text and the Brown title and summary, the results came out as follows:
Original initiative text 73% 22% +51% Brown title and summary 38% 56% -18% The Brown wording shifted the result by 69 percent! The largest shift Binder had ever seen. But this was not mere wording. I had expected a large shift, but the neural theory behind my cognitive linguistics research had made a deeper prediction: Many voters have both conservative and liberal value-systems in their brain circuitry, linking each value-system to different issues. Each value-system, when activated, shuts down the other, and each can be activated by language. The prediction was that this shift was systematic, tied to value-based ideas -- not just a matter of one wording or another. A second prediction was made from long experience. After a strong attack from the right, a liberal poll advantage on an initiative can be expected to drop by around 10 percent. Brilliantly, the DBR poll tested both for the systematic effect and simulated the effect of a right wing attack. The systematic effect was tested by a battery of pro-arguments followed by a battery of con-arguments, each in distinct wording. The pro-arguments were given first, followed by the battery of con-arguments. Right after the con arguments, the original wording and the attorney general's title and summary were tested again. Original initiative text 62 % 34 % +28 % Brown title and summary 43 % 52 % -9 % As predicted, in the face of con-arguments, the 73 - 33 percent advantage for the original initiative dropped to a 62 - 34 percent advantage, a loss of 11 points, but still a 28-point advantage. The attorney general's wording also suffered a loss after the pro-arguments, going from 38-to-56 percent before the arguments to 43-to-52 percent after the arguments, a 9 percent drop for the attorney general's language, about as expected. The total shift after the arguments, from +28 to -9 is 37 percent. The current explanation of the shift is as follows. There are two political value-systems that voters have, call them Pro and Con. (You might think them as Progressive and Conservative, though no overall views are tested in the poll.) About 40-to-45 percent have a consistently Pro-worldview. About 35-to-40 percent have a consistently Con worldview. About 18 percent have BOTH worldviews, and the understanding provided by language can trigger one or the other, resulting in a shift. Now things get really interesting. The DBR poll found a way to test this explanation. The respondents to the poll were asked if they found the pro- and con-arguments convincing or unconvincing. On the battery of pro-arguments, an average of 57 percent found the pro-arguments convincing and 38 percent found them unconvincing. On the battery of con-arguments, 57 percent found the con-arguments convincing and 41 percent found them unconvincing. The same high percentage -- 57% on average -- who were convinced by the pro-arguments were also convinced by the con arguments! As in the shift found in the support for the initiatives, the wording resulted in a shift of about the same magnitude. On the pro- and con-arguments, it was 35 percent -- well within the ±3.5% margin of error. Convincing Unconvincing Difference Pro-initiative arguments 57 % 38 % +19 % Con-initiative arguments 57 % 41 % -16 % This result fits the explanation given above: About 40-to-45 percent are consistently Pro and about 35-to-40 percent consistently Con, with about 18 percent having both Pro and Con worldviews -- and shifting, depending on how language leads them to understand the issue. A large majority of voters stay the same, but a value-shift of about 18 percent of the voters makes for a huge "public opinion discrepancy" of around 36 percent. What is public opinion on the initiative? It depends on what the initiative is taken as saying. Is it about democracy and majority rule or is it about raising taxes? Overall, public opinion is very favorable on one understanding and very unfavorable on the other. Is there a fact of the matter? Is one understanding more true than the other? At this point, the DBR Research poll gets even more interesting. When a voter hears "raise taxes", he or she usually understands the phrase as meaning "raise my taxes." In short, there appears to be a difference between what the words say and what the voter taking the poll understands. Technically, plugging a tax loophole previously given to certain corporations can be seen as "raising taxes" since those corporations would now be paying their fair share instead of a previously reduced amount. Charging oil companies for the oil they take out of the ground in California is called an "oil severance tax." But such actions would not be "raising taxes" on any individual. This raises the question of whether the attorney general's title and summary was misleading. When it said "raise taxes", were most voters misled into thinking it meant raising their taxes? The DBR poll found a way to test this. It asked the following question: Some experts on the state budget say that enough money to solve the budget crisis can be raised without raising taxes on those in the lower or middle income brackets. Instead, tax loopholes for corporations can be closed and a fee can be assessed to oil companies for extracting their oil from the land. Do you support or oppose solving the budget crisis by closing tax loopholes on corporations and charging oil companies an extraction fee without raising taxes on lower and middle income Californians? The response: Support - 62 % Oppose - 34% In short, most Californians, those hurting most in the lower and middle income groups, are not opposed to raising taxes in general. They just think they are already paying fair taxes. What does this mean for the shifts we have seen toward the Attorney General's title and summary, which says that the initiative is about "raising taxes"? It means that most voters are misled by the language into thinking that the initiative is about raising their taxes. For this reason, I have resubmitted the California Democracy Act, asking Attorney General Brown for a new title and summary, one that does not mislead the voters. Do most voters really care about democracy? Hardened Democratic political leaders told me they didn't believe it. They thought voters only cared about their pocketbooks. So DBR Research tested this as well. The poll asked voters if they agreed or disagreed, as follows: In a democracy, a majority of legislators should be able to pass everyday legislation. Agree - 71 % Disagree - 24 % In a democracy, a minority of legislators should be able to block everyday legislation. Agree - 25 % Disagree - 68 % In short, voters do care overwhelmingly about democracy. The DBR Research poll is remarkable, and brilliant in many ways. But to see its true significance, one should compare it to other polls, supposedly on the same issue. In the spring of 2009, when I first thought of this initiative and started discussing it in public, I was told over and over that polls were taken and that my initiative didn't poll. I heard it first from a state senator, then from a powerful official in the State Democratic Party, then from the political directors of various unions who had spoken with that party official. They were against my initiative on the grounds that it couldn't win, supposedly because it didn't poll. Perhaps the most influential of these polls was one by someone I will call the Other Pollster, taken just after I had submitted the California Democracy Act to the Attorney General. (Incidentally, I am not identifying the individuals involved because the issue is not about individuals. As we shall see, the other pollster, the party official, and the political directors were acting normally, all too normally.) Here is what the Other Pollster, in his summary, referred to as the "direct question." Would you favor or oppose allowing the state legislature to increase taxes by a majority vote rather than the current two-thirds vote requirement? Favor - 35 percent Oppose - 62 percent Notice the assumptions built into the question: "allowing the state legislature to raise taxes". Again, the "raise taxes" will be heard as "raise your taxes" and "allow" suggests that the legislature will want, be able to, and will raise your taxes." The Other Pollster also asked a slightly different version of this question: Regarding taxes and government, would you prefer less government and lower taxes, or SLIGHTLY HIGHER TAXES FOR BETTER GOVERNMENT SERVICES ? LESS GOVT/LOWER TAXES. ........ 59 % BETTER GOVT/HIGHER TAXES. ..... 41 % The results are what we would expect. The Other Pollster was also asked by the party official to see if the California Democracy Act had any serious support. The question the Other Pollster asked on the poll embedded my initiative language into the linguistic frame, "Some people say ......... Do you agree or disagree with this viewpoint?" It was the only question embedded into this particular linguistic frame. Notice that this frame presents a contrast between "some people" and "you," introducing a bias against whatever is in the "..." . In addition, "some people" indicates a minority opinion, which introduces a second bias. Third, he referred to it as "this viewpoint," distancing it from the person taking the poll (it is only a "viewpoint") -- a third bias. Here is his question and result: Some people say that "all state legislative actions on revenue and budget issues should be determined by a majority vote." Do you agree or disagree with this viewpoint ? AGREE. ............ 51 DISAGREE. .......... 43 Even in that triply-biased frame, the original initiative language about majority rule came out ahead by 8 percent, while the language about raising the respondent's taxes came out between 27 and 18 percent behind -- shifts of 35 to 26 percent. The Other Pollster noted the shift, but concluded: "the question of simply lowering the two-thirds budget approval threshold to a majority vote, without any conditions, was asked two ways: Neither one of these 2 concepts meets the initial 60% voter support threshold needed to withstand the onslaught from a well-funded opposition campaign. The difference between the "Lakoff question" and the "direct question" can largely be explained by recognizing that the Lakoff question which read: "all state legislative actions on revenues and budget issues shall be determined by a majority vote" (51% support), did not fully convey the real consequences to voters that the Lakoff language would mean: "allowing the state legislature to increase taxes by a majority vote rather than the current two-thirds vote requirement" (35% support). On subjects like taxes, it can be dangerous to assume that voters can be moved to vote differently from their true beliefs by using cleverly crafted language." First, the Other Pollster does not mention the question he actually asked, using the some-people-say frame. Second, he assumes that the "direct question" is the one that does not mention democracy or majority vote, but rather the one that assumes that "the legislature" wants to, would be able to, and would increase the respondent's taxes. This is misleading, not "direct," for reasons discussed above. He calls this the "true belief" of the voters. Third, he suggests that asking about democracy and majority rule is "cleverly crafted language" to "move voters to vote differently from their true beliefs." If you take the Other Pollster's poll and his description of the results at face value, you might very well think that the California Democracy Act "does not poll" when it, in fact, polls 73 percent on the first pass and 62 percent right after a barrage of right-wing attacks. Why does the Other Pollster's poll and poll description look that way, and what does it say about the Democratic leadership that commissioned it and believes the Other Pollster's description of his results. What Does All This Mean? Polls have come to matter, in at least four ways. First, the issues matter. The issue here is the future of California and whether a minority of ultra conservatives will continue to bankrupt the state government purposely to keep it from meeting desperate public needs. In short, the issue is as serious as any issue in public life. And the question "Does it poll?" becomes literally a matter of life and death for many people, and of impoverishment and suffering for others. Second, what the Other Pollster calls the "direct questions" and "true beliefs" are the radical conservative ideas about taxes that conservatives have put forth misleadingly year after year. Here Democrats have been so whipped for so long that they accept conservative framings as simply "true beliefs." What happens when those Democrats are confronted with a question about simple democracy and majority rule, rather than the minority rule that they and the majority of citizens have been suffering under? They cave. When such Democrats see a statement that they actually believe in and wish would happen, they see it as only "cleverly crafted language." The Democratic leadership in California has come to believe a false Republican view of reality, to own it and promote it, and to help make it real. Through polls. Third, it is rare for polls to discuss what DBR called "the 33%-percent discrepancy group," that is, the people who have TWO distinct value systems applied to different ideas (e.g., democracy vs. additional taxes on them), and shift depending on the ideas expressed in the language of the poll. These voters need to be studied, isolated as a culturally important demographic group, and taken into account in future polls. This may involve admitting that there may not be such a thing as overall "fixed public opinion" that includes this significantly large group. Polls should be detecting public understanding -- and studying voters with dual value-systems is crucial if the value-shifters are to be identified and understood. Fourth, the word "taxes" is not neutral or objective. It has been hijacked by the right. By virtue of their communications system, they have changed the framing of the word to mean, according to radical conservative doctrine, "money that individuals have earned without government help that is taken out of their pockets by the government and given to people who haven't earned it and don't deserve it." For many voters, "taxes" has come to be a word defined by the Con ideological worldview, able to activate that worldview in the approximately 18% of voters who switch, depending on language. The last thing Democrats -- or independents -- should be doing is using language that activates a Con worldview and whose effect is to create a shift to the right. It is unfair. In this case it goes against democratic principles. And politically, it is shooting oneself in the foot. It is for this reason that I have chosen the word "revenue." "Revenue" is a neutral word in that it has no such doctrinal meaning. It is a word that comes from business. To run a business, you need revenue; and the same is true of running a government. It is just false to think that the use of the word "taxes" is neutral or objective. In the poll questions cited, that right-wing doctrinal meaning is sneaked in, misleadingly. Finally, these results show the effectiveness of the radical conservative communication system operating 24/7 using the same effective framing year after year. It operates on an unconscious level, slowly changing the brains of those engaged (on either side) of the discourse that the conservatives define. Their communication system is so effective, and Democratic leaders have to deal with it so often, they too can get taken in. This poll revealed that, in California on this issue, 18% of the likely voters were value-shifters, that is, they seem to have BOTH worldviews. Given that Democrats have 63% of the seats in the legislature at present, that means that the 18 percent has been voting in the Democratic column, either as Democrats or independents. But if they have BOTH worldviews, that means they are susceptible to conservative arguments in conservative language, and could shift, as happened in the case of Scott Brown's election in Massachusetts. Democrats cannot take value-shifters for granted. They have to identify them and convince them using value-based language of their own. I am a cognitive scientist and a linguist, and have been applying what has been learned in those disciplines to our politics. I have been arguing over the past decade and a half that progressives need to build a communication system of their own to (1) express the values they really believe in, to (2) to communicate the truth, (3) to use their own values-based language to show the moral significance of those truths, and (4) avoid communicating conservative beliefs they do not hold, especially by avoiding the language of conservatism. The poll results just discussed reflect the failure of progressives to do so. Pollsters have an awesome responsibility. I see the DBR Research poll as a model for carrying out that responsibility. And I have chosen to discuss that poll at length because of the general lessons it has to teach.
The results of this poll goes AGAINST the idea that such voters are "in the middle" and that one can appeal to them by moving to the right. The use of the language of the right can move them to think like conservatives, and hence to vote like conservatives.
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55 Comments so far
Show AllONE PARTY POLITICS -- EMPIRE USA
Our 51% voting majority knows full well, they being the 51% most intelligent and wealthy in our corrupt society, that if our high finance were honest -- Empire USA would not have 80% of the wealth we enjoy to day. For surely 80% of the wealth in the U.S. belongs to the nations we have plundered and swindled.
Lakoff is under the delusion that representatives respond to the wishes of voters.
Yes, and unfortunately true. They could give a flying rat's ass about the voters who don't have any money to give them.
OYE
"Many voters have both conservative and liberal value-systems in their brain circuitry, linking each value-system to different issues. Each value-system, when activated, shuts down the other, and each can be activated by language".
This is a pertinent observation. I am amused by the many predictions showing resistance to Health Care Reform.
The most egregious example of mislaeading poll wording is relabelling the estate tax...into the death tax.
When the term "death tax" is used 60-70% of respondents agree it should be abolished even though fewer than 1/2 of 1% of Americans will ever pay any estate tax.
Words do matter and words are powerful and it is well and good to get up to speed with a progressive manipulation of language which lags way behind Neocon rhetoric.
As other commentors state the politicians on the Fed level have very little concern for the wishes of the citizens so the most accurrate poll in the world is useless if your government is a fascist corporate state.
Like who needs a poll to know people want jobs, their homes and Peace?
None of which Obomber or Congress are providing.
Unemployment and foreclosures are hitting new highs today and Obomber is busy laying the groundwork to attack Iran for his zionist handlers.
But please be my guest and vote Dimo since Obombers strategy of " I must do the wrong thing in order to do the correct thing, since I do not want to offend the Repugs who never cooperate anyway even though I have the votes to do the correct thing in the first place".
If the citizens want it then it's automatically off the banquet table of corporate fascists.
But please be my guest and vote for the Dims that so much wish to end the wars they ALWAYS fund.
Yes vote Dims they are doing so well, maybe you can beg for the bus fare (if there is a bus) to get to the voting booth from your cardboard box.
A good example of how words do count was shown on C-SPAN this morning. With the House working on another major bill, the Republicans were told their attack rhetoric against the bill should include the word "BAILOUT." Sure enough, when the House session started, every Republican getting up to speak had at least one "bailout" in every sentence. And every Republican listening, along with a very large majority of non-Republicans will only hear that word and respond to the bill in the same way as they did the bank bailouts.
Words, and the manner in which they are used, are very powerful.
Glen, Thanks for another concise comment to a long article. I'm reminded of the old saw, "figures will lie and liars will figure."
BTW, the Dims and their faithful on MSNBC, etc. would have us believe that The Tea Party is all about racism. Yes, it's about hatred alright but not hatred for race but hatred for how both parties are phucking this country.
I don't know CA politics much and I don't live in that state but one question comes to my mind. To change from 2/3 to simple majority, wouldn't this require a public ballot initiative to be approved of by the majority of voters?
Yes. A simple majority got the 2/3 requirement passed, and a simple majority could change it.
Thanks GreenDragon and thank goodness it only takes a simple majority of voters. I was worried that it would take 60 percent or even 2/3 of the voters. It sounds like the politics of governing in CA is so messed up.
No more so than anywhere else. The sheeple have been led over so many cliffs and into so many Stew Pots, that everyone wants change but no one knows what change to try. as most of the leaders have turned out to be nothing but selfish Liars!
Just like the rest of America.
The problem is most see Americians as stupid and uncaring, when the fact is especially since Reaganomics we've been heads down working to get ahead and are so exhausted and frustrated by the fact we can't get ahead no matter what, But we do know not to make adecision when were this tired so we don't! look into peoples eyes if you can what you see is fatiuge.
>^^<
This just confirms my suspicion that the American people are so mentally castrated by Madison Avenue that they have lost the ability to think for themselves. Whenever I watch television with people I can't help but verbally savage the commercials. As a reward for this service I get responses like "What are you, paranoid" or "I think this commercial is cute" or usually "Shut the fuck up". If Joseph Goebbels was ever reincarnated, he would definitely work in the ad business.
The people are lead from one myth to the next.
Indeed, people are lead. Leaden, even. And also led.
This question of wording reminds me of an old Chinese story.
Caged monkeys were unhappy about the amount of food they were being given. They complained as monkeys do and so the keeper proposed a change in their feeding schedule. Instead of getting TWO servings in the morning and three in the evening, they would get THREE in the morning and two in the evening. The monkeys joyfully agreed to the new plan.
Here's my experience with monkeys.
One monkey steals a peanut from another and immediately throws it through the bars outside of the cage.
This is what distinguishes primates from other animals. Most animals act only for their own benefit. Food, sex or power which gives them a better shot at the first two. But primates can act out of spite or dislike, even when it doesn't benefit them.
Thus humans will vote against their own interests if we are more aware that the bill will benefit someone we don't like. Just like the monkey throwing away the peanut.
But there is hope here. Just like monkeys in a cage, so many of us live with deep inner frustration and pain. If we can assuage the pain, the monkey will no longer throw away some else's peanut.
I find this a very interesting article.
I would like to add, though, that I don't believe that in America, when we are talking about the very well funded, established, and sophisticated Democratic party, this seemingly obvious error in polling practice that Lakoff is explaining could be unintentional.
When I took my first lessons in polling and statistics, I learned of these issues. Surely the firms that Obama and the Democrats employ are the most advanced in the world?
If they are skewing the results towards the conservative column, perhaps that is because the Democrats want them in the conservative column? "progressive-conservative" does not equate to "Democrat-Republican" as Lakoff suggests. So the obvious explaination for the results Lakoff is seeing is that knowing that Americans are more progressive than either corporate party, the Democrats, whose style appeals more to progressives, use their vast knowledge of polling to put into the papers the results of polls that give them political cover to do what their corporate funders want them to do.
jlocke123: Your last paragraph is, perhaps, the most important! And, in the past, I have asked similar questions:
"If they are skewing the results towards the conservative column, perhaps that is because the Democrats want them in the conservative column?"
Agreed
Yep, you got it.
As we learned in the methodology courses in grad school, there's hardly anything easier than to "load the dice" in a survey instrument while appearing to intend to be fair.
But the examples he cites from the "other pollster" are so dreadful that I can't believe they weren't intentional. They would never have passed muster except maybe from students in an undergrad survey course.
Precisely my thought after I read the article. You beat me to it.
Lakoff's theories presume that people are all stupid rubes who can be dazzled by the superior rhetoric of intellectuals like himself.
But people understand the 2/3 tax system in California, and no twisting of words is going to persuade a majority of them to vote against it.
You are so wrong - a large majority of Californians want to repeal the 2/3 rule - pretty much everyone who lives in a city believes that.
The sickening thing is that raising FEES - like drivers' licenses, parking fees, building permits, bus fares, etc. takes only a majority vote. So those hidden TAXES on the working class and middle class are raised constantly to try to bring in some revenue. But as Lakoff says, raising taxes on the rich, helping the vast majority, is usually presented in a way that makes people think the taxes will hit THEM.
Thank You! I agree!
>^^<
Man, this is too wordy to say something very simple - do not trust polls.
That isn't what he's saying at all. Too many words must have made it impossible for you to read the article.
Mookie might be on to something. After reading the article, I can see why some people would get put off by all those numbers and then say that polls should be ignored. It is as if George Lakoff is purposely writing this article to get the Democrats to stop relying on polls whether he realizes it or not.
I'd say Mookie has a point, but that we might get farther by not altogether trusting blanket statements, either. I should think that polls might be trusted relatively, like most other information --- taking into account the framing, the methods, and the prejudices of the pollsters.
Agree, 'Mook.
Way too much mish-mash.
Doesn't accomplish anything. Certainly not bullets & bombs.
Besides, democrats don't matter at this point. I mean, who now cares?
A real snooZ-zzzzzzzzzzzz'er.
Verily, do not trust a California Tenured Professor!
Silly old red anyhow. the facts are really simple, in California as most places only a small minority vote and most of them are over 60. They remember as I remember how our out of control Ledgislature was tax and and spending us into the Pacific. Unitll; we passed the 2/3 rule by popular resalution. In this same time periond we passed Prop 13 to contain property tax rates. Left to themselves the Autocrats in Sacramento would be taxing property ay 50%+ and gods know on the rest. The fools are trying as I write this to shove Cap+Trade down our throuts, and have done a pretty good job at making Transportation,Agricultricure and, Manufacturing unviabile in California through Dracronionan regulations piled high over the years. Californians aren't entirely stupid! We simply want to have Homes, and Jobs, and maybe a little Pension like our parents had. If thants asking to much? I speak for Californias Citizens and say TOO BAD!
A couple of comments:
1) George Lakoff did not address a very pertinent point: why did Jerry Brown's office re-word the initiative's title as to make it doomed to failure?
2) For some reason, anybody opposed to the GOP insist upon waging verbal warfare using the Repugs vocabulary. As classic rhetoric teaches from antiquity, those whom control the language of the debate usually win. What is even more frustrating is that history provides a rich vocabulary for progressives to use: why hasn't the all too apt epithet of Robber Baron been applied to douches like Don Blankenship, Richard Mellon Scaife, the Koch brothers, etc., etc.
As classic rhetoric teaches from antiquity, those whom control the language of the debate usually win.
-----------------------------
You need to repeat this in every thread, honestly. It needs to be repeated til it finally sinks in. There are just too many CDers who just. plain. don't. get. it.
Bingo! That's the first thing I learned on my high school debating team over 45 years ago. The First Affirmative was responsible for the "Definition of Terms" of the proposition presented. If you presented the terms cleverly enough, you had already gone a long way toward winning even before you had made an argument. This stuff has been known by formal debaters for decades, centuries?, eons? Maybe in high school conservatives were on the debate teams while progressives were what, I don't know, writing poetry maybe? In watching what passes for Congress. debates on C-Span, I am often struck by how often the Reps are better at it than the Dems. They have lousy positions but they are better at arguing them - looking at it from a debater's point of view.
We don't need Lakoff to to explain the power bestowed by the ability to name. Shucks, ancient traditions understood this - man's supposed dominion over creation was bestowed by giving him (yup, him) the power to name, the Old Testament insisted that God could have NO name that could be spoken by man, and on and on. The question is not so much why progressives don't name things better, the question is why do we think we need a Ph.D to explain this to folks and not simply do it ourselves?
In the end the poets may give voice to our innermost desires, but the debaters will rule. Progressives, you better learn the rules of debate, and while you're at it, insist that your kids join the debate team in school. If there isn't one, start one!
"George Lakoff did not address a very pertinent point: why did Jerry Brown's office re-word the initiative's title as to make it doomed to failure?"
A likely answer is that the Democratic Party has no real interest in doing away with the 2/3 rule.
With this rule in place, they can posture to their heart's content on they how would love to support public education, etc. But without the rule, we would see that the emperor indeed has no clothes. (Lakoff himself is on record as saying that it was the Democratic Party leadership in California that has been the main impediment to eliminating the 2/3 rule.)
Think back to before Scott Brown was elected to the Senate from Massachusetts. Back then, the Democrats claimed they had 52 or 53 votes in the Senate in support of the public option, but that there was just no way they could possibly include it in the health bill due to the supposed need to muster a supermajority. But after Brown was elected, we suddenly learn that the supermajority was no longer needed--but still no public option, even without that excuse!
Posturing without end.
With the 2/3 rule the Democrats constituents can't force the Democrats to do something that they DO NOT want to do. Just more Republican lite on the part of the Democrats. Why do you think that ideas brought forth by progressive members of the Democratic Party never end up going anywhere? The center right leaders of the Democratic Party have totally bought in to the crap that the Democratic Party has to move more to the right so that they can defeat the Republicans. When given the choice between the real thing and a facsimile, people will choose the real thing over the facsimile. I guess the Dems still have yet to figure this out.
Perhaps if the Democrats could find a candidate to run for the Presidency as a far right fringe freak we may finally get a true progressive President, as compared to the last two candidates who ran as progressives. Just a thought.
NateW - As for the douches you mention (Blankenship, Scaife et al), I like the word "murderer."
Unfortunately, majority rule means minority fools. Under U.S. election rules, majority rule means that the nation lurches violently to the right with 51%, then to the left with 51%. After each election the losing 49% party compromises its values a bit more so that it can gain that last 2% and have all the power and do the lurch again. As a result, neither of exactly two parties is the least bit honest. Also, the parties both hurl shameful invective at each other, and they exhibit so much self-censorship that they all act like robots sometimes. Occasionally a third party springs up and takes 2% of the vote, and one of the two big parties screams, "you cost me all my power!"
In Cambridge, Massachusetts, for the last 69 years straight, they've voted first choice, second choice, third choice for their city council. The top nine vote-getters get a seat. Almost zero mudslinging, low costs for getting elected, wise decisionmaking, none of this 51% business, and the best part, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have a real foothold! Nobody bothers to run as a Democrat or Republican in Cambridge. Cambridge has a AAA bond rating.
Gee, I like that idea.
Give me a recent example of when the US lurched violently to the left?
We've been heading rightward, consistently, since Reagan. Obama is far to the right of Richard Nixon. I never thought I'd see the day when progressives would rather have a Nixon in office than the current Democrats.
Funny comment. I regularly bitch that most politicians now are more right wing than Nixon. And think of how an Eisenhower would be portrayed in the media these days. These bums nowadays make Bush sr. seem less like the fascist he really was and somewhat liberal.
"In Cambridge, Massachusetts, for the last 69 years straight, they've voted first choice, second choice, third choice for their city council. The top nine vote-getters get a seat. Almost zero mudslinging, low costs for getting elected, wise decisionmaking, none of this 51% business, and the best part, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have a real foothold! Nobody bothers to run as a Democrat or Republican in Cambridge. Cambridge has a AAA bond rating."
A better, more nuanced version of this would be to allow voters to give candidates "scores", say, from a range of 0-100, top nine candidates with the highest scores wins, instead of only ranking in order of preference. Score voting captures more information and nuance from voters, yet is basic and simple.
I am surprised by the vitriol in some of the comments. I found this article very insightful and an object lesson in being skeptical of poll results.
The problem is that many people are easily manipulated by a few buzzwords that carry connotations inculcated from years of advertising and conditioning.
What if the poll questions said:
1) Would you favor allowing the government to raise your taxes if the roads you drive on are in disrepair and the schools your children attend are falling apart because of a lack of government funds. Yes or No?
2) If your answer to the above question is No, what is the solution to the funding shortfall:
a) Government cuts in other programs
b) Raise someone else's taxes
c) Allow the roads and schools to fall apart
Unfortunately such a poll would never be conducted because the questions recognize that there are consequences to underfunding government and the cognitive dissonance might be too much to obtain a valid result.
Yes, yes, piltdownman.
Lakoff continues to speak and write so intelligently on politics most people can't understand. His cognitive/linguistic approach never quite delves into the depths that psychology can--like Jung's and Reich's work does--but if more people would listen to him we would be doing so much better now than Obama, Pelosi and the bendable Reid. We might even have an actual opposition instead of the 2-winged corporate party ennabled by all that arm waving and gnashing of teeth of pseudo-conflict over trivialities and frames that occupies Rs and Ds.
Arguments about framing are always lost by the left, at least partly due to the overwhelming amount of wealth and power corporations, religion and the military mindset bring to bear on any issue. Those are 3 of the most anti-democratic institutions in existence and as long as they rule our lives we will not have democracy, liberalism.................or apparently a viable civilization.
Taxes should not be mentioned in the petition, since it isn't about taxes. Even Lakoff's preferred version of the petition:
'All legislative actions on revenue and budget must be determined by a majority vote' could be amended as: 'All legislative actions must be determined by a majority vote'. Such a wording makes it as plain as day, what the petition is fundamentally about: restoring democracy.
The Brown version of the petition implies that 'majority rule' is about taxes. Like, if California had a monarchy, or communist rule, there wouldn't BE any taxes, or budget.
The fact is that you can no more get rid of taxes, then you can live forever. There is no government, anywhere, that doesn't impose taxes. Hence, the petition is about democracy, and should say so.
Twain's three kinds of lies.
Do you believe the Fuhrer did the right thing by sending German troops into the Sudetenland thus neutralizing Czech aggression and avoiding a major war?
Plebicites like this routinely garnered more than 90% yes votes in pre-war Germany. Seventy-five years later, the manipulation of grammar and syntax to serve political aims has become a highly polished art. It is no longer possible to get even a glimpse of the plain truth in the political arena. If it's not a lie, it's a counter-lie.
I've heard that U.S. census population projections state that by 2050 "white people" will be in the minority (probably faster in California).
This is the true reason why two thirds of the legislature must agree to pass a budget or raise revenue. It is minority control by design! The current political elite will not easily relinquish power.
We passed that point in California several years ago. So far, no collapse of civilization, although the rich white people continue to try their hardest.
Go to this link (cut and paste to your browser if it does not show up in the box), look at what she says about what happened during the Chile Earthquake at 1:35...and then realize...they knew the quake would happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m27IsXRXt9c
After that, consider that the Volcano which erupted in Iceland last erupted in a major way, not as much as this eruption...in 1783. This eruption occurred about one week after Iceland voted to not pay the IMF...HAARP (look it up). This is Star Wars in spades...and it is real. The current Senator of Alaska is Mark Begich. His brother, Nick, wrote "Angels don't play this HAARP....