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Published on Monday, July 27, 2009 by CommonDreams.org
Obama and Clinton Nix Change in Honduras
The situation in Honduras and Central America is growing increasingly
tumultuous with each passing day as deposed President Manuel Zelaya
confronts the de facto regime of Roberto Micheletti with thousands of
partisans mobilizing in the border areas. While Honduran army officers in
Washington and the capital of Tegucigalpa issue statements indicating they
may accept Zelaya’s return—if the civilian coup leaders concur--military
and police units continue to fire on and even murder demonstrators. It is
impossible to predict the outcome of this confrontation. But one thing is
increasing clear--the growing conflict represents a failure of the Obama
administration to reshape US policy towards Latin America in spite of its
early rhetoric directed at the leaders of the region.
On June 29, the day after the coup, Barack Obama declared it “not legal”
and said “we don’t want to go back to a dark past.” This was in keeping
with his remarks at the Summit of the Americas in April when, in alluding
to the US history of backing military regimes, he stated, “The United States
will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been
made.”
But US policy towards Honduras since the coup indicates that the Obama
administration does not represent “change you can believe in.” Rather it is
bent on imposing its will and propping up the status quo in Latin America,
just as previous US administrations did.
Over the past decade a popular upsurge has swept Latin America
comprised of indigenous movements, impoverished urban dwellers,
peasants, environmentalists, feminists, and human rights advocates. They
are demanding a more equitable distribution of the wealth of their countries
and an end to political systems dominated by oligarchs, corrupt politicians
and business interests allied with the United States. A string of New Left
governments has emerged beginning with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela in
1999 followed by Luis Inacio “Lula” da Silva in Brazil in 2003. They have
been joined by the election of left of center presidents in Bolivia, Ecuador,
Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Nicaragua, Paraguay and El Salvador.
This block of progressive forces spearheaded the international opposition
to the coup in Honduras. Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de
Kirchner, reflecting the common sentiment around the continent, noted that
the coup was a throwback to “the worst years in Latin America’s history.”
The Organization of American States, which has historically been
dominated by the United States, voted 34 to 0 to call for the restoration of
Manuel Zelaya as president.
This unified opposition in Latin America left the Obama administration
with no alternative but to call for the resignation of the de facto
government. However, what it has done in the aftermath of the coup is to
search for a way to undermine the reformist agenda advocated by Zelaya
and to prop up the traditional interests aligned with the United States both
within Honduras and in Latin America at large. This commitment to the
old order is symbolized by the fact that Alvaro Uribe, the conservative
president of Colombia, was in the White House meeting with Obama on
June 29 as he issued his statement opposing the coup in Honduras. One of
the points Uribe and Obama discussed was US access to three airfields and
two naval bases in Colombia. Allegedly for use in the drug war in the
Andean region, they are also aimed at counteracting the growing influence
of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela who called the expanded US military
presence “a threat against us” that could even lead “to a war.”
The US obsession with Venezuela is at the heart of its policy towards
Zelaya. Philip Crowley, Assistant Secretary of Public Affairs at the US
State Department, stated that the coup should serve as a “lesson” for the
deposed president who had signed trade and petroleum accords with
Venezuela: “We certainly think that if we were choosing a model
government and a model leader for countries of the region to follow, that
the current leadership in Venezuela would not be a particular model. If that
is the lesson that President Zelaya has learned from this episode, that
would be a good lesson.”
Even before the coup, the Obama administration made known its
opposition to the reformist policies of the Zelaya government. At a meeting
of the Organization of American States (OAS) in early June in Tegucigalpa
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned Zelaya in a private meeting that
he should back off from trying to put a referendum on the ballot that would
provide for the convening of a constituent assembly to draft a new
constitution for the country. The election of constituent assemblies was the
vehicle used by Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador to overturn entrenched
interests and to “refound” their political institutions.
The main diplomatic gambit used by the Obama administration in an effort
to reign in Manuel Zelaya was to get President Oscar Arias of Costa Rica
to broker an agreement with the coup leaders in Tegucigalpa, Honduras.
Arias had served US interests well in the 1980s during his first presidential
term, using regional negotiations to undermine the revolutionary
government of Nicaragua and the guerrilla movements in El Salvador and
Guatemala while nurturing pseudo-democratic governments that adopted
the neo-liberal economic policies then coming into vogue with the
“Washington Consensus.” This time however, Arias failed, primarily
because the OAS and most of the governments of Latin America made it
clear that they would not recognize any government in Tegucigalpa other
than one led by Zelaya. As President Luis Inacio da Silva of Brazil
declared, “we cannot compromise” on the restoration of Zelaya.
In the end Arias issued a mediation proposal that called for the restitution
of Zelaya as head of a national government of reconciliation with
weakened executive powers. Micheletti’s de facto regime rejected the
proposal. It is worth noting that one of the clauses in the proposed accord
calls for Zelaya to refrain from promoting a constituent assembly, a clause
that has been angrily denounced by leaders of the social movements in
Honduras.
U.S. efforts to restore Zelaya have been quite tepid compared to other
countries. While many ambassadors have been withdrawn, the US head
diplomat Hugo Llorens, appointed by George W. Bush, remains in place.
There are reports that he may have even given the green light to the coup
plotters, or at least did nothing to stop them. And while the World Bank
has suspended assistance, the State Department merely warns that $180
million in US economic aid may be in jeopardy. Most importantly the
United States refuses to freeze the bank accounts and cancel the visas of
the coup leaders, measures that Zelaya and other Latin American
governments have urged Washington to do.
The Obama presidency probably hoped that like the years of the Bush
administration Latin America would require only marginal attention in the
grand scheme of world affairs. This may turn out not to be the case
however if Honduras, the last of the banana republics, erupts in a civil
conflict that draws in neighboring countries. “Change” may be the catch
word for the new administration, but here an old French phrase may be
more indicative of what is really occurring: “Plus ca change, plus c’est la
meme chose,” the more things change the more they remain the same.
- Posted in
Comments are closed
94 Comments so far
Show AllThe Obama admininistation has to choose. Either it backs democracy or mlitary dictatorship. It once backed Pinochet over democratically elected Allende. Will there be "change we can believe in"??
No. All Obama seems to be able to do is to make remarks about past mistakes, then continue to make them. His less than lukewarm reaction to the Honduras coup spoke
volumes about the U.S.' continuing love affair with Latin America's remaining corrupt governments. Why do we always choose to sleep with the bad guys when we know that historically those choices end in failure?
Obama is LOOKING FORWARD - to making the same mistakes as made before.
Thanks, Obama voters.
I suppose you think McCain/Palin would have been a better choice?
Although tje US made a few light verbal condemnations of the coup, is seems it was just for public consumption. It's strategy has been to stall, stall, stall. Soon, it will be saying that since the Honduran elections will occur in the fall, it is better off to do nothing. From the start, this has looked like a US led coup because of the similarity to the Haiti coup where we exiled Aristede, and our lack of action especially since we have troops on the Honduran military base (I wouldn't be surprised if our military watched the "exile" plane take off from the base)... Our mainstream media has been doing its best to minimize reporting and stick to US policy talking points.
When will these "banana republics" ever learn to govern themselves in accordance with "U.S. interests" instead of the interests of their own people?
It should be a simple lesson, but maybe they're confused about what "U.S. interests" really means. Perhaps they're laboring under the false assumption that it has something to do with the interests of ordinary Americans whose wants and wishes aren't very different from their own. Silly fools.
On the other hand, I sometimes think that U.S. Americans labor under the same delusion.
Big question in my mind, why has the Organization of American States said nothing for over three weeks? Everyone including Obama is in agreement, they are the one with over all jurisdiction.
Those who head the OAS, were they hand picked by the U.S.?
Venezuela Analysis, 23 July 2009
The military coup that ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya last month should serve as a “lesson” for Zelaya to steer clear of Venezuela’s Bolivarian Revolution and President Hugo Chavez, according to U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Philip Crowley.
In a press conference on Monday, Cowley stated, “We certainly think that if we were choosing a model government and a model leader for countries of the region to follow, that the current leadership in Venezuela would not be a particular model. If that is the lesson that President Zelaya has learned from this episode, that would be a good lesson.
The vile, fucking, consescending arrogance of the Yanqui! Nothing in the world, at least since imperial Rome, can compare to it!
Shouldn't that be Obama and Clinton? Or Barack and Hillary? The reflexive sexism aside, why is anyone surprised? If Obama hadn't been signed up to the project to protect the "America First" status quo, where anything that promotes American Capitalism is seen as good for the US, he wouldn't have been selected as candidate in the first place.
Honduran coup -- Best thing ever happened to the Americas.
Surely now there can be no doubt that Empire USA will never change. Surely now, in our time and in our hemisphere, a state of war has been declared by rich capitalists against all who have suffered misery because of their excessive wealth.
Nix change intentional -- Nix designed to be overwhelming obvious and intentional.
For bankrupt as our economy is, why should Empire USA waste money terrorizing only Honduras by a covert and secret way, when they can terrorize all of the Americas by such an open, self-eviden and deadly way?
Its like the Middle East and our giving nucular weapons to Israel. Gentlemen its now costing us over 4 billion a year to keep Israel a holy terror, money thrown down a black hole if we did not order them to bomb their neighbor to the north and slaves to the south.
The U.S. secretary of state Hillary Clinton spent an entire hour on the most liberal main stream media outlet in America.
NBC's meet the press spent the whole hour asking questions about countries all over the world.
Not one question about Honduras.
Not one.
Looks like the the Main Stream Media has figured out that the exiled President of Honduras is not the democrat he is trying to portray himself as.
The media knows what Chavez in Venezuela did to the free media there. NBC reporters saw and felt the repression and violent intimidation of the secret police during the election that Chavez "won" by a landslide, when the exit polls said he was losing by a landslide. But of course when Chavez is the only one controlling and counting the ballots what does one expect.
NBC apparently figured out what Chavez and the exiled President of Honduras were really trying to do by holding an election in Honduras run by the President, not the election commission.
Having only 100s of supporters in a country of over 7,000,000 ( seven million ) also demonstrated the true level of support the exiled President and his dictator friend from Venezuela enjoyed in Honduras.
Above post a perfect reverse -- Main stream media always a perfect smoke screen drawing our minds toward the reverse.
A smoke screen being something that blinds the mind by burning the emotions.
So come on RC_phoenix, surely you have something more original to throw at us then dead old corporate media.
NBC is the media outlet the liberal elite and liberal masses alike watch in the US.
If the message that the exiled President of Honduras is a poor democratic President against the evil, rich, right-wing elites of Honduras is not being even mentioned by NBC, then the exiled President of Honduras has a problem with how the left in the US views him.
"NBC is the media outlet the liberal elite and liberal masses alike watch in the US."
Ding ding ding, NOW it makes sense. Ok, you're a Limbaugh robot. People like you really DO exist, I thought it was a myth.
Yeah, NBC, owned by one of the biggest weapons manufacturers in the world is "liberal". What "liberal" is I don't know exactly. Is "liberal", for instance, in favor of single payer universal healthcare? Cause that is the mainstream position according to polls on the issue. Go down the list of issues and I'm sure that "liberal" is a group of people who either have a passing interest in facts, history, logic and reality or the general public. What gated community in Phoenix do you live in? What happens when a negro wants to move in?
RC Phoenix: "Having only 100s of supporters in a country of over 7,000,000 ( seven million ) also demonstrated the true level of support the exiled President and his dictator friend from Venezuela enjoyed in Honduras."
You conveniently ignore that the coup has imposed curfews to stop demonstrations and has already killed a number of demonstrators.
So, what exacltly is undemocratic about a referendum - any refernedum, but especially one that invites the poeple to get involved in a transparent democratic process of making a new, fairer constitution?
It sure looks like democracy to me.
Constitutions are meant to be hard to change. This is intended to avoid the "dictatorship of the majority". It seems Zelaya felt he could start an extra-judicial change project by running around the existing constitution. Question: Why didn't he move to amend the existing constitution?
Once again, good ol' Obama and HIllary are showing their true colors. While we are ramping up the occupation of Afghanistan (for what reason??), we can't touch the usurpation of a democratically elected government close to home.
How should we "touch" Honduras?
The next major shoe to drop will be the defacto government of Honduras announcing an agreement with the Nobel Prize winning President of Costa Rica that the exiled President can return with strict constitutional limits on his powers. Strictly enforced this time by the other branches of the government.
That would mean he would be limited to actually being a democratically elected President and not a de-facto dictator for his remaining few months in office.
Will the exiled President of Honduras and the dictator of Venezuela Chavez accept such an offer to allow him to return ???
The other option will be to send in Socialist Militias from Venezuela and Nicaragua to start killing and blame all the deaths on the Honduran Congress and Supreme Court hoping to sway international opinion.
The later option will be a disaster for the Honduran people, but will Chavez care ???
Watch out, behind every shadow is Hugo Chavez. It isn't the horribly failed "free market" policies that are the flavor in the right wing in Honduras (which are being rejected by country after country in the region), and the 20th century corruption and anti-democratic authoritarianism of the right wing in Honduras, everything, everything in Latin America is Hugo Chavez. People like you need buzz words, so when the buzz words are said they become arguments. If you don't have them things get too confusing, nuance is so much work! The "free market" failed in Latin America horribly, increasing poverty, wealth concentration, destroying democracy and the environment. Who's fault is that, the policies and the elites who enacted them? Of course not, HUGO CHAVEZ, who is on the one hand a dictator, and nothing but (the revolution in that country, involving the majority of the population in the happiest democracy now in the region according to the non-partisan polling firm Latinobarometro, doesn't inspire people now does it? No, people just want their own Chavez to run their lives, we have to conclude, right?) who has nothing to offer the world and on the other hand the revolution he is part of is the cause of all unrest in the region. The US is involvement though, do you say anything about that? Of course not. Yes, the NED, USAID, the International Republican Institute, the CIA, the US military (who trains thousands of members of the Honduran military every year and trained many of the coup plotters), the US government who gives hundreds of millions of dollars in military and economic aid (not loans, aid), John McCain, members of the Clinton administration (one is handling the PR for the coup government) well, that isn't forcing anything on Honduras or sticking their nose in the internal affairs of Honduras. Yeah, and asking a non binding question (something polling companies do every day around the world) that would not have any effect, at the earliest, until the day that Zelaya's replacement is elected is the end of the world. Cuase the constitution (which makes popular participation illegal and only allows a small group of elites to change it, how "democratic") says so, and outdated constitutions should stay in place. Why, just cause. Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador creating new consitutions has nothing to do with this, does it? Nah. In Orwell land, where you live, asking people to vote on a non binding issue (what is more Stalinist than asking people to vote about something right? Of course they have the power to reject the non binding resolution, but oh well, it's authoritarian) is grounds for a coup. It's not a convincing argument, but that's what you've been told to repeat, why quesiton it or come up with a more convincing argument?
In Venezuela if 35% of the people want the president, or any other politician, recalled it goes up for a national vote. It was already used once, only in place because of the consitution that the Bolivarian Revolution created and had passed in a national vote (something that has since been copied in Bolivia and Ecuador, with more to come). If 10% of the people want a law overturned they also put it up for a national vote. People are given environmental, social, economic and health care as a right in the constitution, all of which has been strenghthened since Chavez was elected. In Honduras, where they are protecting "democracy" the military dictatorship has already killed countless people (including two well thought of leftist activists, one of whom might have run for president, in cold blood. One was shot in the back after answering the door). The press has been repressed, one has been bombed for mild criticism of the government's actions, one journalist was so scared that he jumped out of a window to escape persecution, others have flead under immense death threats. In 2002 all the branches of the government in Venezuela was shut down, the constitution was torn up, the head of the central bank let go and a military dictatorship was set up. Idiots like you pointed out to us "authoritarian" leftists that you were DEFENDING democracy, war is peace right? So yeah, please lecture us with your nonsense you tool.
Keep on repeating that people in Honduras think nothing of this. You're only fooling yourself. They might not be socialists, they might not be capitalists, but they sure as hell will respond to having a direct say in the functionings of their government, the government in Honduras has admitted this with their heavy actions and their country has NOT benefited from the policies the military is defending violently. Honduras is a dirt poor country and their constitution is as anti-democratic as you can get, created literally days after the ending of a right wing military dictatorship as part of a power sharing agreement. It is outdated and will one day be replaced by something more democratic. Who would have thought twenty years ago that El Salvador would have someone like Funes as president?
Chavez is -- horror of horrors -- a "populist demagogue" which is the current label for any leader who actually believes that his nation's popular will should prevail over the interests of USA Incorporated.
That used to be known as democracy as Lincoln once definied it. But it proved totally inadequate as a "profit center" and it must therefore be expunged from the global scene because of its existential threat to "freedom and democracy" as defined in the Orwellian present.
I agree, I just don't understand why there are such large groups of people who take these arguments at face value and have no interest in THINKING or doing even a small bit of research. It makes sense, in a capitalist, sociopathic way, that economic elites will be in favor of these types of arguments, the policies benefit them. It makes no sense that so many working people accept crap like this so easily. I don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with intelligence or even the media, most people know the media is crap and are made up of millionare liars. I'm just sick and tired of idiots, horrible policies and arguments dominating such a large portion of people's efforts and our public discourse. Anyone ever seen Idiocracy? Is it our present, the future or both?
I really don't know why the illusions have been so successful amongst large segments of the public for so long, but the inculcation of incessant propaganda via multiple institutions is undoubtedly a major factor. Someone (can't remeber who) once remarked that the predominant difference between Americans and Russians is that the latter know most of their government's outputs are lies regardless of routing.
This rc idiot is a perfect example. He says what most people who don't know what the hell is going on say about Venezuela, that it is a dictatorship. You ask them to articulate how it is a dictatorship, especially given the huge amount of provable and obvious external pressure, and they say nothing. They either don't know what they're talking about or don't care to educate themselves and let the facts and objectivity lead them. If you talk about the democratic system in Venezuela they pick a comment or something out of a long post and comment on that. They're children and they are a sizable portion of the US electorate who think this is some sort grade school game. This rc goon then says that Zelaya is a "dictator want to be" and doesn't back THAT up. Leading to the coup in 1954 in Guatemala Edward Bernays lied the US public into supporting a right wing dictatorship in place of a moderately leftist and nationalist democracy and the modern PR industry was really born in its modern form. Chomsky has talked for years about the "manufacturing of consent" by people like Lippmann, how issues are too complex for the general public and how things needed to be simplified for them not only so they understand these complex issues but also, because they didn't have the capacity to understand them, for their own good. Well, rc proves that the idea has some relevance and that the PR industry obviously knows something about the general public that is hard for people on the left to come to terms with. I think that people have a capacity to understand these issues but they don't, many times, question what they are told by people who do a good job of appealing to their emotions. So while they might not be stupid, they are functionally stupid, in practice really no different. Rc, I'm betting, is a working class person aligning himself with people who'd rather spit in his face than help people like him as long as they were doing anything but lowering themselves for their benefit,which rc seems to do nicely. I just wish he lived on an island with the rest of the people like him, so they could hang themselves with their own ropes and not take us all down with them. I'm also sick of their a-historic, illogical, factually void positions on issues being given so much space by the corporate media. I know WHY it is given so much space but it is hard for me not to get angry and frustrated by this nonsense. When will this freaking country grow up?!
I understand Venezuelan democracy does have some flaws. That's just from what I read in the press, though.
All democracies do. No one with their head on straight thinks Venezuela is a paradise, or given the situation within the country that it is anything more to this point than a work in progress, although a very hopeful one at that. Radical, and brilliant, economist Robin Hahnel has written and talked a lot about the potential of this revolution. Here are some links if you're interested:
Robin Hahnel, "Venezuela Socialist Economics": http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/18882
Robin Hahnel, "Participatory Venezuela": http://www.greens.org/s-r/47/47-12.html
Robin Hahnel, "Venezuela: Not What You Think": http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/hahnel301107.html
Apply the standards used against Venezuela by its critics and which democracy around the world wouldn't be damned? Using objective standards, especially given the external pressure the country is under, I'd say that Venezuela stacks up well against every single country in the developed world, including the US. It isn't even worth asking comparison to its neighbor and strong US ally Colombia, same goes with US allies Peru and Mexico. If NBC was backed and funded by Iran and helped a coup in 2002, to the point that an Iranian coup plotters came on national TV and thanked NBC for their help, while another bragged about having a "deadly weapon, the media", I'd bet that the punishment would be a wee bit worse than what it was in Venezuela. The US government wouldn't have waited, after being reinstalled by popular movements here, five years and punished them by making them go to cable TV. The people here would be up in arms if NBC WASN'T tried in court! By law they'd be up for treason and could fry, and that is just one example in which ridiculous and hypocritical standards are applied to Venezuela by idiots like rc_phoenix. Or how about the end of the world reporting on term limits with Chavez, which was voted on in a national referendum or the lack of any response to Uribe, for the second time, in Colombia having his cronies simply change the law to allow him to run again. The last time this happened people went to jail, or are on their way, for corruption involved with the changing of the law.
Again, because people like rc_phoenix's opinions benefit power centers, we have to pretend to not notice the lack of facts, objectivity (like comparing the country to US allies like Colombia, Peru and Mexico) or perspective on countries like Venezuela.
rc_phoenix,
NBC is liberal? Compared to Rush maybe.
A non-binding referendum scared the hell out of the old CIA backed military and Oligarchy.
"Honduran constitutions are generally held to have little bearing on Honduran political reality because they are considered aspirations or ideals rather than legal instruments of a working government. The constitution essentially provides for the separation of powers among the three branches of government, but in practice the executive branch generally dominates both the legislative and judicial branches of government. Moreover, according to the United States Department of State's human rights report for 1992, although basic human rights are protected in the constitution, in practice the government has been unable to assure that many violations are fully investigated, or that most of the perpetrators, either military or civilian, are brought to justice."
http://countrystudies.us/honduras/84.htm
A non-binding referendum does not amend the constitution, but does give voice to the people.
Exiled Honduran President exhibits bravery on the border while being surrounded and protected by sub-machine gun toting Nicaraguans.
http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/articleslideshow?
articleId=USTRE56N5CZ20090726&channelName=newsOne#a=1
RC_phoenix we ask you -- So what if Zelaya and your so called "Nobel Prize winning President of Costa Rica" are nothing more then paid actors hired by Empire USA?
The people are marching, not as you say in the "hundreds," but in the thousands and we hope soon in the hundreds of thousands until they reach half a million.
And what then will dinky little 8,000 man army you so love do for a grand finale?
Alabama_john on July 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Asks:
"Big question in my mind, why has the Organization of American States said nothing for over three weeks? Everyone including Obama is in agreement, they are the one with over all jurisdiction."
Great Question.
The Organization of American States is unanimous in that they do NOT want military coups overthrowing elected governments.
They also agree that a democratically elected President should retain the powers granted him in the constitution during his term.
They are split on helping a democratically elected President exercise powers that are not allowed in the constitution.
They are also split on helping a democratically elected President defy a Supreme Courts ruling on constitutional issues.
A Socialist Block within the Organization of American States would like to see the exiled President return to power as a Chavez style Socialist dictator.
The Rule of Law Block within the Organization of American States wants the exiled President to return to power only with the Powers the democratic Constitution grants him.
The Socialist Block wants to substitute their view of what the current Honduran constitution says for the Honduran Supreme Court's view.
The Socialist Block also wants to change the constitution of Honduras after the exiled President returns to power by way of a constitutional convention organized and driven by the exiled President.
The Rule of Law block believes the amendment process in the current Honduran Constitution should be followed in accordance with the Rule of Law.
If this stand off continues the people of Honduras will have to settle this internally. Hopefully by the peaceful election in Four Months of a new democratically elected President as provided for in the democratic Constitution, or by a civil war started by members of the Socialist Block acting outside the Organization of American States.
Oh, the Supreme Court of Honduras. Even the US State Department earlier this year pointed out that it was horribly corrupt and was systematically giving out "politicized rulings".
http://www.periodico26.cu/english/opinion/may2009/honduras-us072607.html
"The State Department's 2009 Human Rights Report had already characterized that Court as issuing "politicized rulings" and contributing "to corruption in public and private institutions."
By the way, later in the same link it mentions this (I guess term limits, which weren't an issue in Honduras despite what the press has said, are ok as long as people like you and Micheletti like the person in power), "Coup d'état "interim President" Roberto Micheletti...In 1985, however...led just such a constitutional change to re-elect then President Roberto Suazo."
"The Organization of American States is unanimous in that they do NOT want military coups overthrowing elected governments."
Which just happened, one of the lawyers for the military admitted as much. News might travel slowly where you are.
"They also agree that a democratically elected President should retain the powers granted him in the constitution during his term."
Just a hypothetical question: If the constitution of Honduras said that if anyone has blonde hair they can be shot on the spot, would it be justified if someone was shot for having blonde hair? Why not? The constitution says so? Who are you, Stalin? See, you have to have a logically convincing argument, not cite an anti-democratic constitution which says straight away that any popular participation is illegal. The freaking constitution says that direct say from the public is illegal! In what way is that democratic? What the hell are you really defending?
Think about what you are arguing, you are defending a coup against a president who is asking a non binding question, which again polling companies do every day around the world, about issues that face Hondurans. If they didn't want what the "socialist" bloc wanted, guess what, the freaking quesiton was NON binding, could be rejected by voters and would not be put in place to allow another term by Zelaya to begin with (it would be voted on, at the earliest, on the day his replacement was elected). If we use your argument, then no anti-democratic constitution (which Honduras'IS) would EVER change, because democracy in anti-democratic constitutions is deemed illegal. Basically in your universe, if a (right wing) constitution says something it is set in stone, the procedures are set in stone, and that's that. By the way, does this apply to Cuba? Cause the constitution there proclaims socialism, if the constitution says that Cuba is and will always be socialist, will you support similar actions if people try to change that in Cuba? Just wondering.
Who are you? Where do you live? What is the purpose of you posting your nonsense here and taking over the discussion?
I think you've answered your own final question. Distraction doesn't have to be persuasive or even rational to be a useful tool.
Your Chavez/communist/socialist/anarchist/terrorist/bad guy fantasies are all over the internet sites discussing the Honduras coup.
Stop beating a dead horse; it's been dead for so long, it smells like a pizza-driven fart.
If you download BBC World News, direct your attemtion to the Americas section. Scroll down the country profiles and click "Honduras."
What do you know? The BBC socialist-supporters of the socialist/communist/anarchist/terrorist/bad guys bloc observes that Honduras possesses one of the most corrupt politico-legal systems in the world...not simply within our hemisphere.
What you should worry about is the US-Latin American Oligarchical/Plutocratic Bloc.
That bloc also believes in socialism...socialism for the rich. (Simply observe the giant welfare transfer from the average US citizen's income to the financial, banking, insurance, military-industrial complex oligarchs...the group of oligarchs that caused the global ecomonic collapse.)
In Honduras, the oligarchy believes the nation is their money-making machine; outside of the small upper-middle class hanger-ons, the average impoverished citizen is considered disposable.
So if you want to self-rightously tilt your Quixoteon lance at socialism and dictatorship, point it at where it belongs. Point it at the extremely corrupt, enormously greedy, cold, arrogant and vacuous oligarchs that have their own socialist state. In addition, and you'll like this, it promotes a dictatorship with a democratic facade...like the party oligarchs did in the old soviet type societies.
By the way, do you want to know why the Honduran military shoved Zelaya out? One of the proposed questions on the non-binding encuesta was concerned with the military's immunity for crimes of the past and present. You see, many of today's military bosses were involved in Batallion 316. It was a nasty-assed death squad...and they just don't want that can of worms opened. It might cause some of the higher ranked officers indigestion.
The economic oligarchs themselves were planning to get rid of Zelaya earlier; it all started when he had the temerity of upping the average impoverished Honduran's minimum wage.
Can you believe that bastard! Hell, these oligarchs would have to pay their maids, houseboys, drivers, guards, mistresses, politicians and other "servants" an extra lempira or two an hour. Anyway, who ever heard of minimum wage? This is a typical ploy that finally ends up turning Honduras into a socialist/communist/anarchist/terrorist/bad guyst nightmare!
RC_phoenix your kidding us. Surely the sucker bait trap of free (slave) trade is a barbed hook all of the Americas are trying to vomit out of their guts.
For surely the glory days of Empire USA and its intelligence dictatorship called capitalism, surely they are gone forever especially in the Americas.
The U.S. is in economic decline.
Based on the actions of the U.S. Congress where they can not be bothered actually reading the laws they are voting for before they vote for them, it may be in moral decline as well.
But the fear of dictators is not a fear limited to the people of the United States.
As the officials of Honduras have shown the fear of Chavez in Venezuela is a powerful motivator to find the courage to stand up to want to be dictators.
Chavez may have over reached on this one, and the push back from non-dictatorship countries in the Americas is rising.
Your summations are a freaking joke. Explain in detail right now in what way Zelaya is a dictator. It better be something that you'd apply generally, not some nonsnese that would make most any leader of a government a dictator (especially the governments that the right wing in Honduras are close to ideologically and as far as their actions, like the murderous governments in Colombia and Peru).
Once again, Chavez is not under every freaking rock in the region. He has a fraction as much power as the US and has a fraction as much say as the US in Honduras. Provide a bit of proof that Chavez is meddling in affairs in Honduras as much as the NED, USAID, the International Republican Institute, John McCain, people like Lanny Davis, the US military, Otto Reich, amongst others. Since he isn't, and since you'll have no such proof, admit you're nothing but a third rate propagandist defending a government that is protecting policies that have lead to this (I will cite quotes from the same link posted bellow):
"The mind-numbing discussion of "legally authorized behavior" has omitted reference to conditions in Honduras. In 2006, the United Nations Development Program described Honduras as suffering "profound social inequalities, with very high levels of poverty, and with an insufficient economic growth where the population had a relative dissatisfaction with the results of democracy." The Report claimed 15% of rural Hondurans have a 40 years or less life expectancy and 20.4% of the adult population remain illiterate. The UNDP concluded that "the time for change is now."
"A 2003 report showed the richest 10 percent still netted 50 times more than the poorest 10th: 86.3% of the Honduran rural population lived in poverty; 71.3% of urban dwellers qualified as poverty-stricken; 67.2% of the children under the age of 5 were malnourished."
So, you sociopath, WHAT are the poor in Honduras defending? What are they defending themselves against? The horrors in Venezuela where their constitution says they have a right to healthcare, a say in government, social, environmental nd economic rights? The regime whose economic policies have delivered THESE results? Do you expect people with working brains in their heads to believe this nonsense? Please, there are plenty of sites on the internet where people don't know much about these issues, don't insult our intelligence or waste your energy.
Obimbo is not going to invade Venezuela or Bolivia. The Zelaya ouster (which I'm sure we helped orchestrate) is the opening shot by El Gran Caudillo Gringo to bring back the days of Reagan vis a vis Latin America. It's a shot across the bow to the two nations named above.
About a month ago some commenter here said none of us has any idea how deceitful a person Obimbo really is. By now I think we do.
Read my article on this subject in my blog at ahgoldberg.radioleft.com. It calls for real plan of action to force out the coup gangsters and restoring the democratic and legitimate government.
AD
So you are calling for the elected congress of Honduras to be ousted ???
The Supreme Court of Honduras to be ousted ???
That sounds like an illegal coup to me....
Or, are you trying to justify it on the same basis those folks who removed the exiled, dictator want to be, President of Honduras used ???
That sounds like the same defense the de-facto government is using for removing another Honduran elected official from power.
The biggest difference maybe that they are all Hondurans and you are probably sitting in another country somewhere orchestrating the sacrifices of others.
Obama has been a disappointment to many.
Not because of what he says he is trying to do, but because of how incompetent he is at doing what he says he wants to.
A stimulus package justified on fighting the recession and rebuilding infrastructure which instead:
1. Bankrupts the states,
2. Does NOT spend money during the recession, and actually promises to spend the vast majority of the stimulus money after Obama claims the recession will be over,
3. Makes so small a contribution to repairing infrastructure it is a joke.
Health care reform is an even bigger joke.
But not helping this exiled, dictator want to be, out of power, President of Honduras to change the democratic constitution of Honduras may be one of just a few positives so far.
Putting him back in power, limited to only his constitutional powers, might be the best punishment for this Chavez puppet.
Just be quiet until you can back up what you say. We've already heard the talking points that are your argument. Just take the rope around your neck, your own argument, and come back when you have something logical and factual to say. Seriously, you aren't going to convince anyone here with what you're saying. People know too much to be anything more than angry at the nonsense you're saying, which is pretty much why you're posting. Hell, if you've done anything you've made me want to strangle you, well done.
People like you are children, you ignore what you can't defend and repeat the most simplistic nonsense without end.
As the old song goes RC_phoenix, “BS makes the green grass grow.”
The OAS leadership, like the leadership of Empire USA, have no love for the progressive left agenda now capturing the hearts and minds of the majority in the Americas.
The OAS leadership has no objection to manifesto democracies created by a smoke screen Constitution, such as the one in Honduras which was created in 1982 by a military regime.
The OAS leadership is united in preventing Zelaya from replacing a military manifesto with a democratic Constitution.
The OAS leadership sees nothing wrong with the Honduran Supreme Court being nothing more then a group of politicians holding office for only four years, and hand picked by the very ones they are suppose to regulate and impeach. Surely not an independent third branch of government that could prevent abuse of power.
The OAS leadership does not have a “Rule of Law.” For they are mostly capitalists who have only one law: Those more powerful and intelligent must be allowed to compete freely, and to enrich themselves upon the misery of others openly.
Your beating a dead horse RC_phoenix, Honduras does not have a Constitution. For the organized will of the people is the highest law in the land, far higher then the Constitution. And any piece of paper stating that the people go to prison if they try to change it surely is hiding a manifesto dictatorship, not making visible a Constitutional democracy.
I could be wrong, but I have the feeling that RC_phoenix doesn't much care about the horse's vital signs as long as the beating raises plenty of dust.
The leftest Main Stream Media NBC network spent an hour with the US Secretary of State yesterday and did not even ask a single question about Honduras.
The exiled, dictator want to be, President of Honduras is sitting in a camp in Nicaragua calling for Millions of Hondurans to come escort him back into power.
Instead a few hundred supporters, out of a country of seven million ( 7,000,000 ) show up.
A Democratic election to replace him as President is scheduled by the democratic constitution of Honduras to take place in four months. Regular constitutional order will be restored when his democratically elected successor takes office.
The exiled, dictator want to be, is begging Obama to help him.
Obama and Hillary are simply ignoring him as most of his country men are.
Unless Nicaragua and Venezuela send in Socialist Militias to start killing the people and elected officials of Honduras this issue appears to be winding down.
Meanwhile:
Exiled Honduran President exhibits bravery on the border while being surrounded and protected by sub-machine gun toting Nicaraguans.
http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/articleslideshow?
articleId=USTRE56N5CZ20090726&channelName=newsOne#a=1
LOL! This isn't a joke folks, this guy is real. rc, you are a slice of heaven.
http://www.theonion.com/content/index
"Having only 100s of supporters in a country of over 7,000,000 ( seven million ) also demonstrated the true level of support the exiled President and his dictator friend from Venezuela enjoyed in Honduras."
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. The fact is the coup has imposed curfews on the populace and has already killed a number of demonstrators. Clinton has already inferred that if Zelaya "recklessly" returns and stirs up public demonstrations that there will bloodshed (same argument made in Haiti by the US, if Aristede didn't leave power).
You lost me at "leftist main stream media." You guys really are going to have to come up with some new talking points. Most of the old ones are losing their punch.