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US Leaves Honduras to Its fate
The military coup that overthrew President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras took a new turn when he attempted to return home on Sunday. The military closed the airport and blocked runways to prevent his plane from landing. They also shot several protesters, killing at least one and injuring others. The violence and the enormous crowd -- estimated in the tens of thousands and reported as the largest since the coup on 28 June -- put additional pressure on the Obama administration to seek a resolution to the crisis. On Tuesday, secretary of state Hillary Clinton met Zelaya for the first time.
In many ways this is similar to the 2002 coup in Venezuela, which was supported by the US. After it became clear that no government other than the US would recognise the coup government there, and hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans poured into the streets to demand the return of their elected president, the military switched sides and brought Hugo Chávez back to the presidential palace.
In Honduras, we have the entire world refusing to recognise the coup government, and equally large demonstrations (in a country of only seven million people, with the military preventing movement for many of them) demanding Zelaya's return. The problem in Honduras is that the military -- unlike Venezuela's -- is experienced in organised repression, including selective assassinations carried out during the 1980s, when the country was known as a military base for US operations in El Salvador and Nicaragua. The Honduran military is also much closer to the US military and state department, more closely allied with the country's oligarchy and more ideologically committed to the cause of keeping the elected president out of power. Colonel Herberth Bayardo Inestroza, a Honduran army lawyer who admitted that the military broke the law when it kidnapped Zelaya, told the Miami Herald: "It would be difficult for us, with our training, to have a relationship with a leftist government. That's impossible." Inestroza, like the coup leader and army chief General Romeo Vasquez, was trained at Washington's infamous School of the Americas (now renamed Whinsec).
This puts a heavy burden on the people of Honduras, who have been risking their lives, confronting the army's bullets, beatings and arbitrary arrests and detentions. The US media has reported on this repressiononly minimally, with the major print media sometimes failing even to mention the censorship there. But the Honduran pro-democracy movement has in the last few days managed to change the course of events. It is likely that Clinton's decision to finally meet with Zelaya was the result of the large and growing protests, and Washington's fear that such resistance could reach the point at which it would topple the coup government.
The Obama administration's behaviour over the last eight days suggests that if not for this threat from below, the administration would have been content to let the coup government remain for the rest of Zelaya's term. This was made clear again on Monday, at a press briefing held by the state department spokesman Ian Kelly. Under prodding from a reporter, Kelly became the first on-the-record state department official to say that the US government supported the return of Zelaya. This was eight days after the coup, and after the United Nations general assembly, the Organisation of American States, the Rio Group and many individual governments had all called for the "immediate and unconditional" return of Zelaya -- something that Washington still does not talk about.
Meanwhile, on the far right, there has been a pushback against worldwide support for Zelaya and an attempt to paint him as the aggressor in Honduras, or at least equally as bad as the people who carried out the coup. Unfortunately much of the major media's reporting has aided this effort by reporting such statements as "Critics feared he intended to extend his rule past January, when he would have been required to step down."
In fact, there was no way for Zelaya to "extend his rule" even if the referendum had been held and passed, and even if he had then gone on to win a binding referendum on the November ballot. The 28 June referendum was nothing more than a non-binding poll of the electorate, asking whether the voters wanted to place a binding referendum on the November ballot to approve a redrafting of the country's constitution. If it had passed, and if the November referendum had been held (which was not very likely) and also passed, the same ballot would have elected a new president and Zelaya would have stepped down in January. So, the belief that Zelaya was fighting to extend his term in office has no factual basis. The most that could be said is that if a new constitution were eventually approved, Zelaya might have been able to run for a second term at some future date.
Another major rightwing theme in the media and public perception of the Honduran situation is that this is a battle against Chávez (and some collection of "anti-US" leftist allies: Nicaragua, Cuba, take your pick). This is a common subterfuge that has surfaced in most of the Latin American elections of the last few years. In Mexico, Peru, Nicaragua and El Salvador, for example, the conservative candidates all acted as if they were running against Chávez -- the first two with success, and the second pair losing. It is true that under Zelaya Honduras joined Alba, a grouping of countries that was started by Venezuela as an alternative to "free trade" agreements with the US. But Zelaya is nowhere near as close to Chávez as any number of other Latin American presidents, including those of Brazil and Argentina. So it is not clear why this is relevant, unless the argument is that only bigger countries or those located further south have the right to have a co-operative relationship with Venezuela.
Clinton has just announced that she has arranged for the Costa Rican president Oscar Arias to serve as a mediator between the coup government and Zelaya. According to Clinton, both parties have accepted this arrangement. This is a good move for the state department, as it will make it easier for it to maintain a more "neutral" position -- as opposed to the rest of the hemisphere, which has taken the side of the deposed president and the Honduran pro-democracy movement. "I don't want to prejudge what the parties themselves will agree to," said Clinton in response to a question as to whether Zelaya should be restored to his position.
It is difficult to see how this mediation will succeed, so long as the coup government knows that it can sit out the rest of Zelaya's term. The only thing that can remove it from office, in conjunction with massive protests, is real economic sanctions of the kind that Honduras's neighbours (Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala) imposed for 48 hours after the coup. These countries account for about a third of Honduras's trade, but they would need economic aid from other countries to carry the burden of a trade cut-off for a longer time. It would be a great thing if other countries would step forward to support such sanctions and to cut off their own trade and capital flows with Honduras as well.
So it is up to the rest of the world to help Honduras; it is clear that Hondurans won't be getting any help from the US. The rest of the world will have to scream bloody murder about the violence and repression there, too, because Washington will not make much of an issue about it.
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42 Comments so far
Show AllThe USA is SHOCKED, SHOCKED to see gambling going on here.
This puts Obama in a difficult position. To save face, he must publicly state that he is in favor of Democracy while the CIA engineered coup plows forward to install their right wing military dictatorship. Obamas weak-willed response is fooling no one but the gullible faux news audiences.
United (Fruit) We Stand.
let them leave their political problems with their country,somehow they would resolve it though it is really sad to hear that their people risking their lives for their democracy.liz
This indifference from the governments of the US and Canada (wuth Canada's reaction being amongst the worst in the world) is not surprising, as they both have been subsumed into the global oligarchy.
Even the North American liberal blogosphere and political parties have been largely silent, revealing much about the poverty of the political culture up here. The fact that the right-wing would much love to see the same thing happen here should send alarm bell ringing, but alas, the so-called liberals still sleep.
Indeed, besides the North, the Americas and much of the rest of the world has stood firmly united against the coup. What a sad state of affairs in El Norte.
It DID happen here.
The single bullet coup of Nov 22, 1963 and the chadless coup in December 2000.
"CIA engineered coup"
What garbage.
What happened to everyone wanting the US to stay out of other countries business? Thats called a double standard.
How about letting them train their own military officers instead of sending them to the US school for power mad murderers (aka Whinsec). It is too late to howl about staying out of this when we, the USA, trained the goons that pulled off this coup. Now apparently after we trained these thugs and gave them the green light for this aggression, you want us to keep our hands off? The USA has been further exposed for what it truly is. A corporate controlled planetary bully and menace. The only solace I can take from this continuing turn of events is that the USA is broke and can no longer afford thier dreams of empire.
Mr 8 you need to brush up on the history of US involvement in South America before you make another ill informed comment like that.
I'm sorry, I was speaking directly to the Honduran problem at the moment. It has nothing to do with history and I believe the knee jerk reaction to call it a CIA backed coup is uninformed. This is an internal problem and we have nothing to do with it. In fact I wish our government would shut up about it and let other countries solve their own problems.
I respectfully submit that it will be a far better day when we stop referring to the past decades of our involvement in South America.....many of which were indeed sordid and inspired by what another poster referred to as the United-Fruit- States of America and confine our attention and actions to the present and future.
I will indeed join you in your call to stop training forces from other countries here. Enough is enough.
As far as I can determine this is certainly no "coup" When the Congress and Supreme Court of a country combine to decide (legally under their Constitution) to remove a President.....why is thast a coup? I feel there may be a bit of America bashing going on when we are blamed for it.
What if our Congress had impeached GWB and the Supreme Court had agreed and he was removed. Would you call that a coup? I think not. (You'd call it wishfull thinking I'm sure)
I fail to see that any "green light" would be needed from us. Do we control every country that is not a leftist dictatorship? I do not think so.
The only agression is from people that don't like their Constitution and their law that sets a limit for terms of service. I believe that is a good law, otherrwise you get "Presidents for life" another term for military dictatorship.
So I'd respectfully submit I'm not that ill informed, I just don't think this has anything to do with history, I don't think for a minute its a "coup" nor do I believe we need to stick our noses into it.
Its time for us to mind our own business, deflect the attacks of our own government on our own citizens. See to our own economy and the needs of American Citizens.
Thanks for your considered comment, it was appreciated.
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that history should be ignored. It is the only basis on which a complete picture of events can be constructed. With not being able to mention any history surely makes your argument easier but totally inaccurate. If you look at history, oh there I go again, that dirty word again. Coups,attempted coups,or other pro-business violence done by graduates of the US shool for power mad murderers (aka Whinsec) have without exception been supported by the USA. If there is a case where the US objected to their attack dogs using thier murderous skills, I have not heard of it.
Henry -
"As far as I can determine this is certainly no 'coup'"... The military arrived at the president's home in the middle of the night, detained him at gunpoint, and then had him flown out of the country. Soldiers ringed the presidential building. Foreign diplomats were assaulted. Media outlets were shut down and journalists arrested.Civil liberties of the populace, including freedom of movement, were curtailed. A dusk to dawn curfew, policed by the army, was imposed. This is democracy in action?
As far as I can tell, neither Zelaya or any supporters were allowed to participate in any debate about these "impeachment" proceedings, or provide any defense either in the legislature or before the supreme court. The main charge - that he was seeking to become president-for-life - has been debunked, as it is in this article. Please explain how democracy is being defended here.
Are you a capitalist? is that why you deffend Roberto Michelleti, the Honduran Congress and their capitalist Supreme Court? Didn't you know that Honduras is not like USA. I mean Honduras is a real, real poor country. And capitalism increases poverty, so they cannot afford to be ruled by capitalists. The more capitalism applied in this small countries, the poorer and hungrier people get. In any case, Zelaya didn't even break any law, so what. All citizens break laws, and the president is a citizen. I break the US law all the time and nobody is detaining me. Hugo Chavez, Rafael Correa and Evo Morales have all reformed their constitution and they didn't break the law.
In fact we need a Constitutional-Reform in USA, to transform the USA into a 21st Century Socialist system because many americans are getting poorer with this capitalist system of free markets. And capitalism can only lead us straight to hell. Socialism is the real deal my friend.
.
Yes the US should butt out, but don't tell me that it wasn't a coup. You remind me of those idiots who say, "This is not a bailout", when the US government showered billions of dollars on gangster financial institutions who ran the economy into the ground.
Do you believe that the School of the Americas should be shut down? If not, then you are a hypocrite.
It is pretty naive to think that the CIA was not involved.
Ask youself:
(Q) Why won't Obama utter the "coup" word.
(A) So that we can continue giving military aid to the illegitimate regime.
We should NOT be involved in supporting this coup. We ARE involved by supporting them financially. To put on a good face, Obama issues a tepid response while shoveling money to them.
There are always folk living in denial. When people suggested the CIA was involved in the Coup in Chile, peoples like Henry8 ridiculed such a notion.
The same happened in Greece, Indonesia, Vietnam and a myriad of other places. A coup occurs, the CIA is suspect, endless denials that they would EVER be involved and the truth learned a decade or more later that they did in fact engineer the same.
Here is a pretty good low-down from Nikolas Kozloff at CounterPunch.org
http://counterpunch.org/kozloff07092009.html
Thanks for that. A lot more credible then the "No US Involvement crowd".
>>Reich went on to say that he was very "disappointed" in Zelaya because the Honduran President was "enormously corrupted from a financial and moral standpoint." In another interview with the Honduran media, Reich went further, remarking brazenly that "if president Zelaya wants to be an ally of our enemies, let him think about what might be the consequences of his actions and words."
This is telling..It has shades of the executives of Unocal warning to the Taliban that they would either support their pipeline or get bombed and of Johnsons warning to the Socialist leader of Greece that he had best not piss off the Good ole USA because he (Johnson) could not care less about their democracy.
To me, the most telling is the media coverage. Compare the TV coverage between a "possibly rigged election" in Iran with this "definite coup" in Honduras. It's unbelievable the difference in the coverage between the two.
Weisbrot´s concluding paragraph totally misses connecting with reality. This coup was MADE IN THE USA and is a product of the new Barack Obama-Clintonite crowd now in power. To suggest that Obama is standing by innocently and helpless on the side lines is just pure nonsense.
I certainly won't dispute that this coup MAY have been made in the USA, however, your conclusion that it was a product of the present administration is a great leap of reasoning. Those with the most to gain are "corporations", and to that end, it very likely was not a 'political' decision so much as an 'economic' one. Corporations span all political parties, in fact, it is in the corporate interest to keep the little people arguing about political differences in order to take more and more control.
gnken
I think anyone with alittle knowledge of what has been happening in the America's in the last decade can see that most of Americans are so ill informed of what has been going on down there. I always speak kindly of Hugo Chavez an cheer each time an election succeeds in electing a President that will not subject themselves to being a Puppet to the U.S. I have suspected from the beginning that the U.S. had knowledge of what was going on in Honduras. Had the Previous administration still been in office they would have demonized Zelaya, and praised the Military for protecting the citizens of Honduras. Rush and Fox News pundits have been doing that already. Honduras seems to be taking a path similar to Chili in 1973, Santo Domingo in the early 60's. U.S. foreign policy remains sadly the same. I had great hopes for Obama and Clinton.
Indeed, i hate "Freedom of speech" laws because they are not based on freedom at all. That's like if we had a law of "Freedom of raping girls". And indeed, i think that FOX news and CNN should be nationalized by the US government, or should be closed. They do more harm than good. And to hell with the libertarian right-wing "Freedom of speech" laws which are used for evil purposes really.
.
"This puts a heavy burden on the people of Honduras, who have been risking their lives, confronting the army's bullets, beatings and arbitrary arrests and detentions. The US media has reported on this repression only minimally..." Yet every hick-up in Iran gets mega coverage. I'm not saying the media is complicit in this ... wait, yes I am!
If Zelaya gets a chance and gets back in the first thing he should do is close the US base there and kick the US military out.Chavez and many other leaders would be happy to help him out financially.The US is asshole deep in this one too.Tony
A MESSAGE FOR MY HONDURANS, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH AND ALL TRAGIC-HEROES AND ACTIVE-NIHILIST UBERMENSCH (OVERMAN) FRIENDS !!
WARS LEAD TO FREEDOM !!
"The great men are necessary, the time in which they appear is accidental; that they almost always become masters over their age is only because they are stronger, because they are older, because for a longer time much was gathered for them." -Twilight of the Idols
WARS LEAD TO FREEDOM !! War educates for freedom. For what is freedom? That one has the will to assume responsibility for oneself. That one maintains the distance which separates us. That one becomes more indifferent to difficulties, hardships, privation, even to life itself. That one is prepared to sacrifice human beings for one's cause, not excluding oneself. Freedom means that the manly instincts which delight in war and victory dominate over other instincts, for example, over those of "pleasure."
The human being who has become free and how much more the spirit who has become free spits on the contemptible type of well-being dreamed of by shopkeepers, Christians, cows, females, Englishmen, and other bourgeoise. The free man is a warrior. How is freedom measured in individuals and peoples? According to the resistance which must be overcome, according to the exertion required, to remain on top.
The highest type of free men should be sought where the highest resistance is constantly overcome: five steps from tyranny, close to the threshold of the danger of servitude. This is true psychologically if by "tyrants" are meant inexorable and fearful instincts that provoke the maximum of authority and discipline against themselves; the most handsome type: Julius Caesar.
"My types of disciples: To those men who are of any concern to me I wish them suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, and indignities. I also wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: And i have no compassion for them, because I wish them the only thing that reveals value in a man: that they should endure firmly !!" -(The Will to Power, Sec. 905)
"You want, if possible and there is no more insane "if possible" to abolish suffering. And we? It really seems that we would rather have it higher and worse than ever. Well-being as you understand it, that is no goal, that seems to us an end, a state that soon makes man ridiculous and contemptible, that makes his destruction desirable. The discipline of suffering, of great suffering. Do you not know that only this discipline has created all enhancements of man so far?" -(Beyond Good and Evil, p 225 )
"I do not point to the evil and pain of existence with the finger of reproach, but rather entertain the hope that life may one day become more evil and more full of suffering than it has ever been." -Friedrich Nietzsche(1844-1900)
Yes indeed--War is Peace, Freedom is sdlavery, ignorance is strength! Ingsoc sieg heil!
Poet
I am tired of this talk btw President Zelaya. I mean I am tired of the Honduras coup and I think that special task forces from each country of the ALBA should destabilize the coup. There should be a defense mechanism intacted to deal with situations like this. With a cooperative manual in dealing with coups, counter-insurgency and propaganda.
The people need to strike and start a guerrilla warfare campaign. Find the where abouts of the current gov'ts family members and capture them. Demand the re-installment of Zeyala. The coup fascist are not talking they didn't choose that root.
They choose to attack with guns. So what are we suppose to do go talk to them? They aren't here to talk if they where we wouldn't be in this predicatment.
They think they can hit us and continue to hit us. Well no. Strike hit the main opposition supporters. Get Them! Burn There Buildings! Ran Sack there quarters and do not retreat! Check out my blogspot.com website: "Americans Who Support Hugo Chavez" for a Socialist United States !
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MarxistGod opines:
I am tired of the Honduras coup and I think that special task forces from each country of the ALBA should destabilize the coup. There should be a defense mechanism intacted to deal with situations like this. With a cooperative manual in dealing with coups, counter-insurgency and propaganda.
****************
Maybe they could cal it "The Chavez Doctrine"--El Norte vamous!
Poet
It's obnoxious, true, that ALBA can't intervene realistically. No matter their intentions, war with a very dangerous US is the last thing anyone wants, even Hugo. History's on their side now, or so they think (and I hope). We're fading, and as each year passes, we'll be less and less able to dictate the fates of every nation to our south. They can wait us out. It's a shame that one of the prices for that choice could be the Honduran poor and working class, because without a doubt, this coup is going to unleash some nasty purging among the people for awhile.
The left-leaning nations also have their own urgent problems, since each of them faces a fierce conservative resistance in their own territory, and risking the loss of power on behalf of military assisting Honduras is not a wise exchange. They could lose that battle (we will almost certainly intervene), and will be subject to fierce domestic campaigns against a "surge in leftist state violence" that might cost them their popular base.
I think Honduras is going to be the sacrifice here, although Mexico is still in play as it nears collapse, so we'll see.
Never mind war with the US. For Venezuela to intervene, they would require overflight rights from Columbia.
Not gonna happen.
This is the way I described this article off its appearance on Z net this morning: did I miss anything important?
HONDURAN COUP: MADE IN THE USA AND TOLERATED BY USA FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.
Mark Weisbrot contrasts this coup of 2009 with that of Venezuela in 2002. In the earlier coup, the U.S. operated covertly to support the plotters against Chavez and openly to recognize the coup during its brief existence. In Honoduras, the covert support is a matter of some doubt, but the U.S. reluctance to denounce the coup or take any decisive action against it occurred against a background of a very strong military establishment in Honduras, nourished and trained within the U.S.A.
For those willing to dig through now-declassified documents and read historical accounts of CIA black ops activities since the end of World War II, it is clear that many US presidents and the top national security officials of their administrations did destabilize governments, overthrow disfavored regimes, and engineer coups.
Ike knew about the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran. Kennedy knew about the Bay of Pigs and the plots to whack Castro. Johnson knew about coups and counter-coups in South Vietnam. Nixon and Kissinger, with a wink and a nod, overthrew Allende in Chile and aided a vicious military crackdown on the civilian left in Indonesia. Jimmy Carter started the jihadi guerilla war against Soviet forces in Afghanistan in cahoots with the Pakistani ISI. Reagan upped the American support for the "brave Afghan freedom fighters", while fomenting regime change in Nicaragua through the whole Iran-Contra scam. George H W Bush took down Noreiga in Panama, and George W nearly got Hugo Chavez. One authority counts 50 separate governments overthrown with covert US backing since the end of World War II.
Several comments above and in the mainstream press point to this history, and to the institutional role of the Central Intelligence Agency working hand in glove with the White House, to find fingerprints Made in USA all over the coup in Honduras.
Yes, I agree those fingerprints are there. But let us not automatically ride off to round up the usual Langley suspects. Look at the facts on the ground first, then at the blueprint of the national security bureaucracy. Let us not shoot from the hip.
I simply do not believe that Barack Obama and CIA director Leon Panetta (and maybe Hillary Clinton too) sat down quietly in a corner of the Oval Office some time during the last few months, and agreed to give the green light to overthrowing Zeyala. Such a scenario strikes me as utter bullshit. There is no ideological or partisan motive. The coup in Honduras creates another foreign relations headache for the White House, right at the time Obama is trying to appeal to Hispanics as a domestic constituency, and apparently re-embrace something resembling FDR's old good neighbor policies towards the nations of Latin America.
Obama and Panetta are not like Nixon and Kissinger or Ronald Reagan and Bill Casey, at least where central America is concerned. Yet everybody who's anybody says Washington had to have given the okay for the Honduran military to do what they did to Zeyala, and there was a School of the Americas connection to this coup.
Okay, so whose job responsibility is that?
Answer: Robert Gates, as Secretary of Defense. Not Leon Panetta over at the Central Intelligence Agency.
So what did Robert Gates - professional career spy, long time Republican, and Reagan/Bush era holdover now in charge at the Pentagon - know about the coup in Honduras, and when did Robert Gates know it?
Isn't this really the question that the national press corps in Washington DC should be asking right now?
To this north American, the real news story lurking here is whether the coup in Honduras is perhaps a test case to see if team Obama actually has civilian control over the black ops activities of the nation's far flung network of soldiers and paramilitary spooks. Show me where I'm wrong.
Bill from Saginaw
Bill you make good points.
Just because Obama is president doesn't mean he is in charge. There is an awfully lot of government inertia and secret agendas out there. I personally doubt that Obama gave the green light to the coup, but once it occurred (with what I suspect was USA help), his response has been pathetically tepid. He does not want to rock any boats.
JFK was shot they say, because he wanted to get rid of the CIA.
The CIA isn't this good. You guys overestimate their abilities. Trust me on this, they offered me a job about ten years ago when I just got out of the military. And anyone who would hire me can't be held in that much awe.
This story is pretty simple so far with what is known. Best to keep it that way for the moment. It goes like this:
Honduran president drifting a bit left late in his career. Sees light. Does a few things, but by and large, nothing that can't be undone when he leaves office. So nothing happens. But then president, after many talks with fellow left oriented presidents, knows that the biggest obstacle to progress in LA and SA in general ar ethe military constitutions that entrench power in many countries. He goes for the brass ring: he gets the idea that maybe it would be a good idea to let the Honduran people draft their own constitution. Now he's gone from a nuisance to a problem.
If he's left in, and the popular poll is taken and voted on affirmatively, their is a record for such a popular desire for change. No matter what happens next, the world knows the Hondurans want a new constitution. That's bad, since no amount of rhetorical window dressing will eradicate that evidence (except for Americans, but we don't count. we barely remember our names). The guy can't be left not only for the remainder of his term, but even forr a lousy weekend. Why the rush? Because everyone knows the result of such a "poll" in advance. Two bad choices for elites: let it happen and give lip service to democracy, knowing they can sabotage a constitutional rewrite later in the game (what they should have done) after they get their own man in the presidency, or, fearing a situation where popular resistance is inspired by the results of a vote, remove el presidente and make sure no vote occurs, leaving the results up to historical speculation but paying a high short term price, assuming the lame spin doesn't work (which it really hasn't).
They shoulda went with a) but instead chose b). They'll just wait until the next election but this time, you can bet they'll vet their president a whole lot better than Zelaya. But now, while they don't have to worry about a plebiscite inspiring resistance, they DO have to worry about a coup doing much worse. I think it was the worse choice, personally.
And this has to do with the CIA how? Well, fact is, the CIA didn't have to do much anyway. NO money had to change hands, no bribes taken. Honduran elites wanted this action on their own, and although we almost certainly knew about it in advance as a "courtesy", we almost equally certainly didn't instigate it. This was a nice, homegrown panic coup by the wealthy and upper middle class.
Fin
Skip -
I like your broad analysis. However, just because "the CIA isn't this good" does not mean the DIA, the NSA, and the military intelligence honchoes over at the Pentagon aren't this good. Just who is this "we" who knew about the coup in advance as a "courtesy"? I don't think it was Barack, Hillary, or the somewhat publicly beleagured civilian spooks over at the CIA.
People seem to forget that one of the genuine lasting legacies of the Bush/Cheney era was the militarization of the national intelligence establishment, sixteen separate agencies now ostensibly under the umbrella civilian leadership of the Director of National Intelligence, former admiral Mullen. Part of this whole shift from CIA predominance over clandestine paramilitary operations towards Pentagon predominance was to neuter even the modest Congressional oversight and presidential "finding" requirements imposed upon the black ops boys of Langley in the aftermath of the Watergate/Church Committee scandals. No better way to erect an even higher wall of secrecy around classified derring-do than to put it ultimtately under the control of military, rather than civilian, intelligence operatives.
Which brings me back to my original question: What did Robert Gates know about the military coup in Honduras engineered by good ole boy grads of the SOA, and when did he know it? This is not just another damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't gotcha question.
As Secretary of Defense, an integral part of Gates' job description is to maintain operational control of the Pentagon's own intelligence assets, wherever . If the civilian face of the Pentagon knew, but withheld that foreknowledge from the White House and State Department while giving the Honduran coup plotters a tacit green light, he should be held accountable and sacked. If Robert Gates didn't know (a scenario that is perhaps even more ominous), then Gates should be the guy kicking asses and taking names. Either way, this is the question that should be framed.
Do we or do we not have civilian political control over the intelligence resources of our global military network, when it comes to meddling in the internal political affairs of foreign governments - up to and including regime change?
Bill from Saginaw
Sadly, we're only allowed a day or so to have an exchange on a topic that isn't 9-11, so this may not reach you. I'm sure we'll have many more opportunities.
You say: "I like your broad analysis. However, just because "the CIA isn't this good" does not mean the DIA, the NSA, and the military intelligence honchoes over at the Pentagon aren't this good. Just who is this "we" who knew about the coup in advance as a "courtesy"? I don't think it was Barack, Hillary, or the somewhat publicly beleagured civilian spooks over at the CIA."
The DIA I know very well, and if the CIA isn't this good, DIA and the NSA is almost certainly worse. Understand that these agencies have different missions. NSA are electronic snoops. They know things--lots of things--but they don't actually "operate". Same with the DIA, who are the much lesser stepchildren of the CIA. DIA could barely run a summer camp for disabled youth, much less topple a government.
As for who knew what, Clinton almost certainly would have known, since the embassies are the purview of the state department, and the embassy would HAVE to know in advance. The reason for this is that the coup leadership would have had to sound out their only potential ally in this action in terms of the official US reaction. As bad as tehy wanted Zelayas out, they wouldn't risk sanctions for doing it. The ambassador knew. Period. Whether he gave a thumbs up or just a sideways "nnnnnhhhhhh...." is hard to say. But he did know. That means Clinton knew. It would have grabbed the first page of her daily brief. One other thing is for certain; if we did NOT want the coup to happen, the ambassador would have scotched that plan in two seconds flat.
You mention the militarization of the intelligence agencies, but what you don't take into account is their capabilities. Coup support is largely informational and advisory. The people most capable of that role are generally CIA; they are trained specifically for it, have native assets they run for that kind of operation (and military intelligence almost never runs their own assets--they're not qualified, frankly), and have the access to the check book if needed to make these thingns happen or facilitate with maximum independence. In the military intelligence domains, too much authorization would be needed to spend even a nickel, black ops or not. Most humint agents in teh DoD would be warratn officers, and any vet knows warrants are not trusted with those kinds of decisions independently. The review alone would have taken weeks. The CIA can do it in three phone calls.
Regarding Gates, he might have known as well, since the military--although not instigators--have organic connections socially and operationally with the Honduran military on a daily basis. The information probably was in the DIA pipeline, and there's a good chance he knew. But he would not have been a decisionmaker on this issue. Gates is not Rumsfeld, and Obama is not Bush (at least in terms of following protocol). For an active operation, this would have been approved by the NSC, DoI, State, and the WH CoS. The Gang of 8 also would have been briefed.
You say: "Do we or do we not have civilian political control over the intelligence resources of our global military network, when it comes to meddling in the internal political affairs of foreign governments - up to and including regime change?"
I think outside of a hotzone, yes, civilians are in charge pretty thoroughly. Even in combat theaters, civilian intelligence operations would largely be dominant in matters political, since the military apparatus again doesn't train their people for this kind of work. I can say that authoritatively, btw, because that's what I did for ten years.
I honestly don't think we did much other than review the Honduran plan in general terms and let the plotters know what our response(s) would be under certain conditions and scenarios. THe reaction from our "leadership" confirms this. We're not selling this coup, nor are we impeding it, and that's why I think we knew but didn't do much else other than encourage it by essentially staying fairly neutral, which in the vernacular of the biz is known as a "soft yes".
Indeed, when i was little a wise old man told me that the president of USA is CIA. USA is not a presidential system, it is ruled by a consensus usually of rich people, and they are all heads of CIA
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US Leaves Honduras to Its fate--Well at least we can know for sure that there is no oil either in Honduras or its territorial waters. Eat your hearts out Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan--you should have been so lucky.
Poet
Obama's plan: Stall, stall, stall, until it no longer makes the news.
Hillary the Hawk's support of the golpistas in Venezuela and attacks on Hugo Chavez yesterday indicate that Honduras is being used as a staging ground for another gringo try at a coup in Venezuela.
Venezuela & yes, Zeyala stand for the Martin Luther King-like ideals that he espoused in his campaigns vs. Clinton & McCain, our only realistic choices in this so-called democracy. (though, I am being persuaded to return to my days of protest votes for Nader &/or the Greens as the only way to build a movement against the soulless corporate monstrosity). It's a sublime irony that capitalists condemned Communism for being soulless, while the monopoly captialist corpse-orations are nearly totally soulless (see the dvd, The Corporation, which reveals the corpse-oration as a psychopath.)
But, back on topic I just wish Martin Luther King, Jr. was still around to give OBOMBA a big kick in the f****** a**.
So Hillary sends Zelaya to Costa Rica for mediation talks. Now the media is reporting the Coup President bailed out of the talks and left back to Honduras, leaving stooges behind to talk. So much for that plan. Way to go Obama and Hillary. Two weeks into the coup, no results and no appearance of urgency on your part.
No one stages a coup to coexist with the opposition.
Intrinsic qualities of the action prohibit it. A coup radically centralizes assumption to power and commit both resistance and the new government to violence.