First, we should acknowledge the obvious: The bill is awful. It gives away permits to greenhouse gas emitters that should instead be auctioned. As a result, money that could be rebated to taxpayers or used to fund the development of clean technologies instead goes to the industries that are the source of the problem.
Second, the use of tradable permits rather than a tax is a rather questionable policy. Permits will almost certainly require more government enforcement bureaucracy than a system of taxes and subsidies. And, incidentally, permits will allow Goldman Sachs and our other Wall Street friends to make tens of billions of dollars on trading fees in the coming decades, a high priority for all Americans.
But a bad bill is almost certainly better than no bill. If Waxman-Markey doesn't get through, it is very difficult to see another bill getting through this Congress. And there is no reason to believe that the Congress that gets elected in 2010 will be any less indebted to the corporate lobbyists.
The Waxman-Markey bill should be viewed as a foot in the door. It is a modest first step toward reducing greenhouse gas emissions that both demonstrates a commitment and provides an opportunity to show the public that emissions can be lowered without imposing an enormous economic burden on the country.
Of course, the only reason that so many people believe that reducing greenhouse gas emissions will impose an enormous burden on the economy is that the oil and coal industry, and their friends in the media, have been pushing this tripe for more than a decade. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects that the cost of the Waxman-Markey bill at $22 billion a year in 2020. That will be equal to less than 0.1 percent of projected GDP in that year, or about $70 out of the pocket of each person in the country.
The coal and oil companies are greatly anguished over this prospective burden on American families, but let's compare this burden to the burden posed by Iraq war levels of defense spending. Two years ago, the Center for Economic and Policy Research commissioned Global Insight to use its model to project the economic impact of Iraq war levels of military spending. They projected the effect on the economy of a sustained increase in defense spending equal to 1.0 percent of GDP, an amount slightly less than the increase sustained in the years following the start of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.
Global Insight was selected because it is one of the oldest econometric forecasting firms in the country. Its model has been widely used for a wide variety of analyses and it certainly is not associated with progressive or anti-defense politics. Its model is also very much in the mainstream of the economics profession. It will not produce results that are qualitatively different than any other mainstream model.
The model projected that after 10 years of higher spending, GDP would be down by about $17 billion from baseline levels. After 20 years (2021 if defense spending stays high), GDP would be down by more than $60 billion from baseline levels, approximately three times CBO's projection of the cost of the Waxman-Markey bill.
Of course, these projections don't show the full loss to households, since they don't include the money that must be diverted from taxes or obtained by borrowing to support the higher level of defense spending. These figures are just the lost output.
Global Insight projected that after 20 years of higher defense spending, annual car sales would be down by more than 700,000. Housing starts would be almost 40,000 lower. Exports would be 1.8 percent lower and imports would be 2.7 percent higher, leading to a trade deficit that would be almost $200 billion larger. The model also projected that there would be nearly 700,000 fewer jobs as a result of the higher level of defense spending.
In short, the economic harm projected from high levels of military spending is far larger than the damage projected from the Waxman-Markey bill. Given this situation, we would have expected that all the oil and coal industry folks, who are now so concerned about the average family's well-being, would have been screaming about the economic pain that would result from sustaining the Iraq war levels of military spending.
Did anyone ever hear them raise this issue? Does anyone recall members of Congress giving speeches about how the job loss from the Iraq war levels of spending would be devastating? Does anyone recall any newspaper columns or editorials making this point? How about a news story that analyzed the economic impact of higher levels of military spending?
For some reason, job loss and economic pain associated with the military are just not worth mentioning. These items only become newsworthy when the issue is saving the environment. And the elites wonder why the public has so little confidence in the country's institutions.
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49 Comments so far
Show AllDean Baker needs to explain how increased Pentagon spending will slow down the US economy. It seems far more likely to inflate the US economy with military profiteers raking in windfall profits.
I once saw on TV (Bill Moyers? not sure) where someone said that from the 1960's onwards, a disproportionately large number of engineering graduates went into the military/weapons-related industries. I couldn't find a reference to that with a simple Google search - maybe someone here would know? If you think about it, the USA has by far the best weapons systems - from fighter jets to spy satellites to missiles and nukes, but it has long ago given up even any pretense of competition in other sectors - such as automobiles, consumer electronics, etc. There is very little that the USA can sell to the rest of the world, other than weapons. It's almost like a systematic dismantling of the technological/manufacturing base in the country over a few decades.
Here's an ignorant, wild guess: defense will hoover up too much money that would have been better spent in critical infrastructure or energy technology. In the past, often government spending on defense (and war) has yielded much innovation that has been used for non-military technological improvements, but direct targeted investments aimed at critical non-military goals should logically yield greater and faster rewards.
GWB committed many crimes before and after he was selected president by the Supreme Court. Many of those crimes were taken off the table from investigation by Pelosi and Obama. Anything you don't understand about that?
A few years back there was a quasi-documentary "After the Warming" produced. In it, James Burke explained that the study of ice core samples had documented the presence of CO2, Methane and pollen throughout the ages and graphed that with the earth's warming and cooling cycles. The alarming point to this was the RATE of increase in greenhouse gasses that we are now experiencing. The slope of the graph is unprecidented. The other point to ponder, is the amount of time that it took between the 'cascade' point, that point where the warming stops and the cooling starts, and the onset of an 'ice age'.
All this aside, Mr. Bakers article reminds me of Edgar Allen Poe's 'pot boilers'. He has put word to paper in order to publish something, but says nothing of substance. (And he is nowhere near as good a writer as Mr. Poe).(IMHO)
You are the first person in 2 years who has indicated that they can read the chart and draw the obvious conclusions.
Pleased to make your acquaintance.
In "The Great Ice Age", Drury, Chapman and others note that the top 4/5 of the Greenland ice sheet has been laid down since the cascade pt 110ky ago.
In "Under a Green Sky", paleo-geology/archology points out many examples of mass extinction events.
I have posted that tectonic events may trigger the cascade due to changing forces as water mass migrates to the equatorial lats.
I've checked the USGS/earthquake site every week for 3 years. The printouts I ahve show increased activity along the mid-Atlantic Ridge and the Antarctic plate boundary.
Got skis?
It's a trojan horse designed to block real action later down the line. Cap and trade is designed to enrich Wall Street and the Banksters to the detriment of everyone else. Waxman-Markey is full of "market incentives" that only apply if you are already part of the economic elite.
The rest of us are going to get the bill and no real action on global warming.
Dennis Kucinich brilliantly and expertly explains why he voted against The American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009:
http://kucinich.house.gov/News/
DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=134813
Who, or what, was the "lie detector" teased at in the title to this drivel.
Of the proposed cap and trade system, Baker writes "permits will allow Goldman Sachs and our other Wall Street friends to make tens of billions of dollars on trading fees over the coming decades....."
Is he serious about this?
Is the federal government actually about to create an artificial "market" in carbon pollution permits out of whole cloth, and then when the bidding starts among the industrial giants, hand over the actual day-to-day operation of this brand new, esoteric "commodity" to the so-called free enterprize system, in order to enable the Masters of the Universe to routinely skim off some percentage of every trade transaction as personal profit?
Will savvy, sophisticated big time investors who speculate in things like oil futures and credit default swaps suddenly have another exotic toy to tinker with - more pieces of magic paper representing potential flows tomorrow of somebody else's money - abundant newly minted chits of novel risk and value that they can day trade, sell short, hedge, or horde in this latest game of chance, soon to premier in an added wing to Wall Street's great casino?
Don't look now, but I think the invisible hand of the market place is coming to pick your pocket again.
Bill from Saginaw
Yeah, he's sarcastic, but sit on your wallet.
C Y G N U S,
You mention that, " Time is running out " which is alarmist and is not actually supported by definitive science.
I understand that we're being pummeled constantly with propaganda, from every direction on the climate situation, and that the preponderance of officially ( UN & EPA ) sanctioned scientific opinion is about "Global Warming".
What you likely do not regularly see nor understand, are the well respected opinions of those scientists that question the modeling and so called evidence of the recent War on Global Warming ( which is from the same folks that brought us Global War OF Terror ).
Consider the modeling is likely quite inconsistent in predictions and prone to substantial errors -- depending on the "best" choices of various coefficients and directions of causality.
________________________________________________
See ( to make up your own minds ) :
( 1 ) US: Two EPA Staffers Question Science Behind Climate 'Endangerment' Proposal
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/188012-US-Two-EPA-Staffers-Question-Science-Behind-Climate-Endangerm...
( 2 ) It's only a bloody computer model!
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/187822-It-s-only-a-bloody-computer-model-
( 3 ) Computer modelling
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/computer_modelling.htm
( 4 ) The Laws
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/laws.htm
( 5 ) The science is not settled
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/187995-The-science-is-not-settled
________________________________________________
From item ( 4 ), there's a great expression of our current situation :
* * * * The law of scientific consensus: * * * *
_____ At times of high scientific controversy, the consensus is always wrong.
.
* * * * The law of scientific equilibrium * * * *
_____ If it is settled it is not science.
_____ If it is science it is not settled.
.
IN CONCLUSION, from item ( 1 ) :
"The report says EPA used _ o u t d a t e d __ s c i e n c e _ to support its finding.
The authors cite studies that show -- among other things -- declining global temperatures and a changing scientific consensus on weather patterns. "We believe our concerns and reservations are sufficiently important to warrant a serious review of the science by EPA before any attempt is made to reach conclusions on the subject," Carlin and Davidson wrote. "
N.
P. S. I have absolutely no financial stake in this, and I am a scientist and engineer having a 30 year career in a very prestigious institution, who only seeks a balanced approach to the truth.
P. P. S. I seriously doubt there is _ a n y _ valid proof that we are already "past the tipping point", especially as that point is systematically dependent on thousands of guesses in baffling complex climate models.
I am also a scientist and before I retired I used to read the climate modeling literature. There are about nine models in use today, and while they differ in some features (mostly how they handle small-scale processes such as thunderstorms), they all predict large-scale features fairly well.
There are, in fact, a number of scientists who doubt the importance of human activities on warming, but very few of them are trained in climate science. Is it possible that they are correct and the thousands of climate scientists predicting dire consequences of human activities are wrong? Of course it is possible.
But the sportswriter Grantland Rice once commented on an analogous situation, reminding us that "The race does not always go to the swift nor the fight to the strong. But that's the way to bet." Those who bet on long shots usually lose their money.
"At times of high scientific controversy, the consensus is always wrong." TAT, this is gibberish from an apparently egotistical minority scientist. Your throwing the law of scientific equilibrium into this is mere obfuscation. You seem lacking in logic.
G R E G _ R,
You obviously failed to appreciate that this "gibberish from an apparently egotistical minority scientist", is actually the key historical player that created todays climate models.
And more directly to your character assassination attempt, if we all actually believed that he is a minority scientist, then all of the global warming models would ipso facto be trash science.
Because you wish to claim that " [I] seem lacking in logic", I can only respond reasonably that you ignore the many references and illustrations of my concerns -- and thereby I conclude that YOU SEEM LACKING IN ANALYSIS.
What exactly do you think was the scientific consensus before Galileo's breakthrough publication ?
There is much your arrogant viewpoint has missed, so go and search for the truth, like I mentioned below at :
Time stamp : TAT TVAM ASI June 30th, 2009 3:32 pm
A concession I will easily make,
is that the "RULES" and "LAWS" mentioned are just like Murphy's Law -- which obviously is NOT true is every instance -- as better than 99 % of technology is perfectly fine for many years -- and aircraft generally obtain reliabilities of better than 99.999999 %
N.
"What exactly do you think was the scientific consensus before Galileo's breakthrough publication ? "
There was no scientific consensus before Galileo's experiment. Science relies upon observation (experiment) and interpretation to form a testable hypothesis. Galileo performed the first experiment in this area.
Getting back to climate change, it has been observed, by measurement, that the carbon dioxide level in the atmosphere is rising. From our knowledge of chemistry carbon dioxide is a known greenhouse gas. These two facts suggest a hypothesis that the Earth might well be warming. Observation of Earth temperatures are in accord with this hypothesis.
Now TAT, exactly where is this logic incorrect?
I got a kick out of your rebuttal on the scientific consensus. Your having to go back a few years to make your point was a hoot. You misunderstood me on the egotistical minority scientist. I was speaking of you.
It is troubling that your skill in using the English language is as poor as your logic and jokes, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything ( just like you ).
I just heard Faux news has been spreading this garbage from an EPA NON-scientist.
Apparently we simply do not understand each other very well. I made no joke, let alone jokes.
Why do they call it defense spending?
Sounds better than Sadist & Psychopath's International Slush Fund.
But I vote we call it the Sadist & Psychopath's International Slush Fund! Much more accurate...
The scientific meme has no more value or worth than does any other.
A cognitive definition of meme (Dennett) says, "A meme is an idea, the kind of complex idea that forms itself into a distinct memorable unit. It is spread by vehicles that are physical manifestations of the meme."
Now this definition really gives you a meme's eye view, cough. Notice the phrase "forms itslef." Well, we know ideas don't form themselves any more than spoons get up and dance on the table. This definition is a scientific model. Using the phrase "forms itself" is a trick to get us to look at things from the meme's point of view. You notice interesting things when you look at a specific meme and see what happens around it: how it spreads, mutates, or dies.
Meme's can also represent infections or viruses which are intended to delay action, create disempowerment and watching to see how it affects people's actions and behaviors; notice how it is spread; comparing it to competing meme's to see what properties it has that make it occupy more or fewer minds than it rivals.
People toss out the word "science" and use it as a form of worship to peddle whatever snake oil they happen to be interested in selling at any given moment. Data can be used to support any ideology you want.
I'm planning a trip to sail to the Arctic in the summer of 2013 since it'll be ice-free and don't have the time to respond to your post at this moment.
Please list the name of the peer-reviewed journals the work of the scientists you mentioned is published in and I'll review them when I have the free-time.
Thanks
C Y G N U S,
I provided a set of links, and this one is even clearer about how we are being so blatantly had :
" Global Warming Pathology: How we know they know they are lying "
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/188014-Global-Warming-Pathology-How-we-know-they-know-they-are-lying
The peer reviewed science is not something that I'm closely following, as 'the tree is known by its fruit'.
I already did present two top EPA scientists pointing out the humongous holes -- in the EPA's latest missive.
They also mention the widely accepted PEER REVIEWED reality of actual climate cooling -- which has yet to be integrated into the hype and polish of our oh so captivated patronage system of science. This is the reason issue is why "Climate Change" is the new verbiage ( not yet widely disseminated ), but I can assure you that Hansen and Co. are not done by any means -- they're just getting ready to shift the propaganda to be more consistent with reality.
As the above well structured and revealing reference directly addresses this and indicates,
_____ "There are major differences between
_____ real science and bureaucratic science ( BS )."
Good luck with your trip.
" THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE "
N.
I just looked at the web site you listed (re: How we know they are lying). It was posted by a retired professor of industrial management. It contains nothing but statements we are supposed to accept because he says to. This fellow's text makes the average nonsense from Rush Limbaugh seem like rigorous, logical statements. It contains nothing that can be verified, and as far as I can tell, it contains nothing that is correct.
I do not know why you are referencing people from EPA, an agency that has little to do with climate studies (even if it is supposed to enforce the Clean Air Act, which it has not done for the last 8 years). If you referenced people from NCAR, the group that actually studies the atmosphere, your position would be stronger.
TAT in reply to Cygnus, notes:
"Good luck with your trip."
I think Cygnus was being ironical TAT.
Perhaps I was as well, in seeing all of those icebergs in time …
It would have had more punch had you used a metaphor like cygnus did.
I am amazed and pleased than so many here see through this. "A bad bill is better than no bill" I disagree. Do No Harm should always be the basic principle. And what kind of bureaucracy will we have to create to monitor 1200 pages which no one has read?
I would suggest a simpler solution. Stop subsidizing oil, gas and nuclear. Yes, energy costs would rise but they will do so with this bill too. And it is clear that higher costs spur conservation. Alternatives would be able to compete more effectively and the individual power supply approach would have a better chance.
And what happened to Waste Heat Recovery which we read about here a few years ago? Having this gov't pick winners and losers in the alternative energy game is a very bad plan. Ethanol anyone?
And what kind of bureaucracy will we have to create to monitor 1200 pages which no one has read?
-------------------
A bureaucracy that'll probably require enough carbon to suffocate three mid-sized planets.
I don't take you seriously Dean. You just lost credibility. Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth repudiate the Bill. While dissing the Bill out one side of your mouth, you commend it out the other. My indigenous friends call the context speaking with a forked tongue.
Cygnus noted a time frame. We have long passed the tipping point. Denial may drive your analysis, but it does not drive mine.
The current Bill was written by corporate insiders like Shell Oil, the corporate Farming interests, and the Coal Industry.
You cannot advocate against corporate power and commend it in the same context. It is called hypocrisy. Apparently, another 'yes' man dancing on the string of the forces of the Earth's demise.
Cap and Trade is repudiated by any authentic environmentalist worth his salt. It is a shell game that does not reduce fossil fuel emissions.
This Bill is loaded with corporate giveaways just like TARP funding; nothing more.
My advice is take your tripe to the main line News Wire where it belongs to be gobbled up by the rest of the status quo herd.
Cygnus noted a time frame. We have long passed the tipping point. Denial may drive your analysis, but it does not drive mine.
----------------------
I too am in the camp that believes we have passed the tipping point for all but the worst case scenarios.
This, however, is no excuse not to move forward.
We must give our best effort for those who will inherit the planet from us.
I totally agree! Nowhere did I advocate that we give up or use it as an "excuse not to move forward." My professional life began with an association with Earth First! Ive worked in my bio region all my life on behalf of the Earth. I still do. My culture is one of the few that still honors the Earth.
Yes, we need to give our best. We are in agreement. This article, however, is just another effort worshiping the tyrannical gods of cultural. These types of norms Dean would have us believe, mimic a character in a Dickens novel.
At the end of a long table sits a forlorn lad with an empty bowl. Slowly, almost apologetically he gets off of his hard wooden seat, moves slowly and timidly to the front of the table. With eyes downcast, and arms trembling, the young lad lifts his bowl toward his master's rigid gaze and with a his voice quivering, asks, "Please Sir, more porridge."
Dean worships disempowerment; that is the context of my rebuttal.
The legislative process simply cannot cause the "change we need" before a tipping point is reached. (It has not yet been reached, but the course we choose to embark upon in the next three years will determine if it will be)
Empower yourselves by supporting "Plan B"
Plan B is NOT wishful thinking--it's based on solid science.
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/13/are-man-made-tornadoes-the-answer-to-global-warming/
I beg to differ with you. Life will go on, but in drastically reduced numbers. The biosphere is undergoing change that cannot be calculated. I represent a culture that does not rely on left brain hegemony. My ancestors, elders, and medicine people have prophecies telling of this condition and this time, that are over one thousand years old. I will stick to the wisdom of my ancestors.
I think Mr. Baker's intent is honorable.
He's just not accurately calculating the odds.
What if Waxman-Markey is too weak and time is too short.
What if anything other than an immediate carbon knock-out has catastrophic consequences for life on Earth for eons?
Does Mr. Baker still give it the nod?
Mother Nature doesn't gives brownie points for bi-partisan legislation.
In my view, there is absolutely no honor in capitulation or pragmatism, but especially when pragmatic norms contribute to the exponential demise of the Earth. Pragmatism is nothing more than an EXCUSE. In the sense of the bill, it would be like the great fire of San Francisco at the turn of the century when the entire city burned to the ground but imagine climate change as exponentially worse. And then imagine trying to put out the San Francisco fire using one bucket of water to do it. The Bill Dean is advocating for is the single bucket approach. Honor has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Mr. Dean honestly believes Waxman-Markey is a positive first step towards addressing climate change.
I disagree.
I think it's almost certainly a catastrophic mistake.
People aren't dishonorable because they're incorrect.
They're dishonorable because they lack integrity.
I used both right and left brain to come to the above conclusions.
I fear neither.
Except when used by an imbalanced person.
The imbalance is Western Culture. It is Eurocentric peoples abiding by the values of conspicuous consumption which have no sense of limits.
Expressing anger for this condition is not an imbalance, unless of course your presuppositions are just another form of imperialism rooted to elitist attributes with the intention to belittle the indigenous world view?
Furthermore, unconscious bigotry is one of the most pernicious imbalance to root out; because it plays itself out in the subsurface of the personality, and is therefor hidden.
I have no elitism against indigenous world view.
I support your right to live exactly as you please without interference.
I support the right of Native Americans to be fully compensated, if that's even possible, for the crimes perpetrated against them.
No culture is perfect.
However, some are less perfect.
We're all brothers and sisters...connected.
My fate depends on yours and yours on mine.
There's no gain at someone else's expense.
Anger itself is not imbalance, only what becomes of it.
I consider myself a child of the creator, a product of the universe.
I acknowledge and respect the superficial differences between people but find them mostly illusory.
There's no difference between you and me, here and there, now and later.
Ultimately there's only consciousness.
By using the term "Native American" you are using the language of the oppressor.
I don't speak for all natives; it is only my experience that those natives who have empowered their own lives don't want your blood money.
As far as being one, that will only happen after we achieve our freedom from the domination of your culture and your political system. Our goals are the same as yours, we want self determination from the poisons on our land.
1) Please excuse my use of Native American as I mean no insult.
2) I don't have any blood money. I'm a pacifist (in training). Violence should be left to sports. (No, war is not a sport).
3) We're already one. This is my belief system and is confirmed to my satisfaction by modern physics. It goes far beyond all the superficial differences which unfortunately take center stage in this life on this planet at this illusory moment in time.
4) I hope you achieve that which will bring you peace.
May I ask your name?
Firstly I did not take your remarks personally, so there is no need to apologize.
Secondly, I admire and respect your beliefs and your pacifism, although I do not count myself among them and that undoubtedly springs from my very different cultural experience of colonization.
May you continue to walk in harmony.
Please just call me by my screen name Cygnus.
However, this is the real Cygnus X-1:
http://blackholes.stardate.org/images/cygnus_x1.jpg
Or google Cygnus X-1.
Peace.
But a bad bill is almost certainly better than no bill. If Waxman-Markey doesn't get through, it is very difficult to see another bill getting through this Congress.
--------------------------
I disagree. The planet doesn't have time to waste on a bad bill.
A bad bill could be the knockout-punch for life in billions of forms for many thousands of years.
Mr. Baker, we can get effective climate change legislation passed. That's the good news.
The bad news: It cannot and will not happen until the American people are given accurate and unfiltered information on the reality of the crisis, which to this point they have not.
The earth is at defcon 5 and my fellow citizens are at 1.
The masses must be UN-propagandized and shaken back into reality.
Do you doubt me?
We're struggling to get publicly funded healthcare legislation passed when 70% of the country desires it and the phones of congress are ringing off the hook demanding it.
In comparison there's almost no pressure on congress for climate legislation with teeth. The result is the Waxman-Markey toilet paper you see before you.
Mr. Baker, logic then dictates that the only road to passing climate change legislation with muscle is a new Fairness Doctrine and an anti-trust hammer to break the media megaliths into thousands of tiny pieces.
We must regain control of the ability to get our message out to the millions, on a continuous basis, without corporate spin.
Time is running out.
----------------------
Whoever controls the media controls the country. Period.