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Iran and Leftist Confusion
When I returned from covering the Iranian elections recently, I was surprised to find my email box filled with progressive authors, academics and bloggers bending themselves into knots about the current crisis in Iran. They cite the long history of U.S. interference in Iran and conclude that the current unrest there must be sponsored or manipulated by the Empire.
That comes as quite a shock to those risking their lives daily on the streets of major Iranian cities fighting for political, social and economic justice.
Some of these authors have even cited my book, The Iran Agenda, as a source to prove U.S. meddling. Whoa there, pardner. Now we're getting personal.
The large majority of American people, particularly leftists and progressives, are sympathetic to the demonstrators in Iran, oppose Iranian government repression and also oppose any U.S. military or political interference in that country. But a small and vocal number of progressives are questioning that view, including authors writing for Monthly Review online, Foreign Policy Journal, and prominent academics such as retired professor James Petras.
They mostly argue by analogy. They correctly cite numerous examples of CIA efforts to overthrow governments, sometimes by manipulating mass demonstrations. But past practice is no proof that it's happening in this particular case. Frankly, the multi-class character of the most recent demonstrations, which arose quickly and spontaneously, were beyond the control of the reformist leaders in Iran, let alone the CIA.
Let's assume for the moment that the U.S. was trying to secretly manipulate the demonstrations for its own purposes. Did it succeed? Or were the protests reflecting 30 years of cumulative anger at a reactionary system that oppresses workers, women, and ethnic minorities, indeed the vast majority of Iranians? Is President Mahmood Ahmadinejad a "nationalist-populist," as claimed by some, and therefore an ally against U.S. domination around the world? Or is he a repressive, authoritarian leader who actually hurts the struggle against U.S. hegemony?
Let's take a look. But first a quick note.
As far as I can tell none of these leftist critics have actually visited Iran, at least not to report on the recent uprisings. Of course, one can have an opinion about a country without first-hand experience there. But in the case of recent events in Iran, it helps to have met people. It helps a lot.
The left-wing Doubting Thomas arguments fall into three broad categories.
1. Assertion: President Mahmood Ahmadinejad won the election, or at a minimum, the opposition hasn't proved otherwise.
Michael Veiluva, Counsel at the Western States Legal Foundation (representing his own views) wrote on the Monthly Review website:
"[U.S. peace groups] are quick to denounce the elections as ‘massively fraudulent' and generally subscribe to the ‘mad mullah' stereotype of the current political system in Iran. There is a remarkable convergence between the tone of these statements and the American right who are hypocritically beating their chests over Iran's ‘stolen' election.
Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, James Petras wrote:
"[N]ot a single shred of evidence in either written or observational form has been presented either before or a week after the vote count. During the entire electoral campaign, no credible (or even dubious) charge of voter tampering was raised."
Actually, Iranians themselves were very worried about election fraud prior to the vote count. When I covered the 2005 elections, Ahmadinejad barely edged out Mehdi Karoubi in the first round of elections. Karoubi raised substantive arguments that he was robbed of his place in the runoff due to vote fraud. But under Iran's clerical system, there's no meaningful appeal. So, as he put it, he took his case to God.
On the day of the 2009 election, election officials illegally barred many opposition observers from the polls. The opposition had planned to use text messaging to communicate local vote tallies to a central location. The government shut down SMS messaging! So the vote count was entirely dependent on a government tally by officials sympathetic to the incumbent.
I heard many anecdotal accounts of voting boxes arriving pre-stuffed and of more ballots being printed than are accounted for in the official registration numbers. It seems unlikely that the Iranian government will allow meaningful appeals or investigations into the various allegations about vote rigging.
A study by two professors at Chatham House and the Institute of Iranian Studies at University of St. Andrews, Scotland, took a close look at the official election results and found some major discrepancies. For Ahmadinejad to have sustained his massive victory in one third of Iran's provinces, he would have had to carry all his supporters, all new voters, all voters previously voting centrist and about 44% of previous reformist voters.
Keep in mind that Ahmadinejad's victory takes place in the context of a highly rigged system. The Guardian Council determines which candidates may run based on their Islamic qualifications. As a result, no woman has ever been allowed to campaign for president and sitting members of parliament were disqualified because they had somehow become un-Islamic.
The constitution of Iran created an authoritarian theocracy in which various elements of the ruling elite could fight out their differences, sometimes through elections and parliamentary debate, sometimes through violent repression. Iran is a classic example of how a country can have competitive elections without being democratic.
2. Assertion: The U.S. has a long history of meddling in Iran, so it must be behind the current unrest.
Jeremy R. Hammond writes in the progressive website Foreign Policy Journal:
"[G]iven the record of U.S. interference in the state affairs of Iran and clear policy of regime change, it certainly seems possible, even likely, that the U.S. had a significant role to play in helping to bring about the recent turmoil in an effort to undermine the government of the Islamic Republic.
Eric Margolis, a columnist for Quebecor Media Company in Canada and a contributor to The Huffington Post, wrote:
"While the majority of protests we see in Tehran are genuine and spontaneous, Western intelligence agencies and media are playing a key role in sustaining the uprising and providing communications, including the newest electronic method, via Twitter. These are covert techniques developed by the US during recent revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia that brought pro-US governments to power."
Both authors cite numerous cases of the U.S. using covert means to overthrow legitimate governments. The CIA engineered large demonstrations, along with assassinations and terrorist bombings, to cause confusion and overthrow the parliamentary government of Iran' Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953. The U.S. used similar methods in an effort to overthrow Hugo Chavez in Venezuela in 2002. (For more details, see my book, Dateline Havana: The Real Story of US Policy and the Future of Cuba.)
Hammond cites my book The Iran Agenda and my interview on Democracy Now to show that the Bush Administration was training and funding ethnic minorities in an effort to overthrow the Iranian government in 2007.
All the arguments are by analogy and implication. Neither the above two authors, nor anyone else of whom I am aware, offers one shred of evidence that the Obama Administration has engineered, or even significantly influenced, the current demonstrations.
Let's look at what actually happened on the ground. Tens of millions of Iranians went to bed on Friday, June 12, convinced that either Mousavi had won the election outright or that there would be runoff between him and Ahmadinejad. They woke up Saturday morning and were stunned. "It was a coup d'etat," several friends told me. The anger cut across class lines and went well beyond Mousavi's core base of students, intellectuals and the well-to-do.
Within two days hundreds of thousands of people were demonstrating peacefully in the streets of Tehran and other major cities. Could the CIA have anticipated the vote count, and on two days notice, mobilized its nefarious networks? Does the CIA even have the kind of extensive networks that would be necessary to control or even influence such a movement? That simultaneously gives the CIA too much credit and underestimates the independence of the mass movement.
As for the charge that the CIA is providing advanced technology like Twitter, pleaaaaaase. In my commentary carried on Reuters, I point out that the vast majority of Iranians have no access to Twitter and that the demonstrations were mostly organized by cell phone and word of mouth.
Many Iranians do watch foreign TV channels via satellite. A sat dish costs only about $100 with no monthly fees, so they are affordable even to the working class. Iranians watched BBC, VOA and other foreign channels in Farsi, leading to government assertions of foreign instigation of the demonstrations. By that logic, Ayatollah Khomeini received support from Britain in the 1979 revolution because of BBC radio's critical coverage of the despotic Shah.
Frankly, based on my observations, no one was leading the demonstrations. During the course of the week after the elections, the mass movement evolved from one protesting vote fraud into one calling for much broader freedoms. You could see it in the changing composition of the marches. There were not only upper middle class kids in tight jeans and designer sun glasses. There were growing numbers of workers and women in very conservative chadors.
Iranian youth particularly resented President Ahmadinejad's support for religious militia attacks on unmarried young men and women walking together and against women not covering enough hair with their hijab. Workers resented the 24 percent annual inflation that robbed them of real wage increases. Independent trade unionists were fighting for decent wages and for the right to organize.
Some demonstrators wanted a more moderate Islamic government. Others advocated a separation of mosque and state, and a return to parliamentary democracy they had before the 1953 coup. But virtually everyone believes that Iran has the right to develop nuclear power, including enriching uranium. Iranians support the Palestinians in their fight against Israeli occupation, and they want to see the U.S. get out of Iraq.
So if they CIA was manipulating the demonstrators, it was doing a piss poor job.
Of course, the CIA would like to have influence in Iran. But that's a far cry from saying it does have influence. By proclaiming the omnipotence of U.S. power, the leftist critics ironically join hands with Ahmadinejad and the reactionary clerics who blame all unrest on the British and U.S.
3. Assertion: Ahmadinejad is a nationalist-populist who opposes U.S. imperialism. Efforts to overthrow him only help the U.S.
James Petras wrote: "Ahmadinejad's strong position on defense matters contrasted with the pro-Western and weak defense posture of many of the campaign propagandists of the opposition...."
"Ahmadinejad's electoral success, seen in historical comparative perspective should not be a surprise. In similar electoral contests between nationalist-populists against pro-Western liberals, the populists have won. Past examples include Peron in Argentina and, most recently, Chavez of Venezuela, [and] Evo Morales in Bolivia."
Venezuela's Foreign Ministry wrote on its website:
"The Bolivarian Government of Venezuela expresses its firm opposition to the vicious and unfounded campaign to discredit the institutions of the Islamic Republic of Iran, unleashed from outside, designed to roil the political climate of our brother country. From Venezuela, we denounce these acts of interference in the internal affairs of the Islamic Republic of Iran, while demanding an immediate halt to the maneuvers to threaten and destabilize the Islamic Revolution."
From 1953-1979, the Shah of Iran brutally repressed his own people and aligned himself with the U.S. and Israel. After the 1979 Islamic Revolution, Iran brutally repressed its own people and broke its alliance with the U.S. and Israel. That apparently causes confusion for some on the left.
I have written numerous articles and books criticizing U.S. policy on Iran, including Bush administration efforts to overthrow the Islamic government. The U.S. raises a series of phony issues, or exaggerates problems, in an effort to impose its domination on Iran. (Examples include Iran's nuclear power program, support for Hamas and Hezbollah, and support for Shiite groups in Iraq.)
During his past four years in office, Ahmadinejad has ramped up Iran's anti-imperialist rhetoric and posed himself as a leader of the Islamic world. That accounts for his fiery rhetoric against Israel and his denial of the Holocaust. (Officially, Ahmadinejad "questions" the Holocaust and says "more study is necessary." That reminds me of the creationists who say there needs to be more study because evolution is only a theory.) As pointed out by the opposition candidates, Ahmadinejad's rhetoric about Israel and Jews has only alienated people around the world and made it more difficult for the Palestinians.
But in the real world, Ahmadinejad has done nothing to support the Palestinians other than sending some funds to Hamas. Despite rhetoric from the U.S. and Israel, Iran has little impact on a struggle that must be resolved by Palestinians and Israelis themselves.
So comparing Ahmadinejad with Chavez or Evo Morales is absurd. I have reported from both Venezuela and Bolivia numerous times. Those countries have genuine mass movements that elected and kept those leaders in power. They have implemented significant reforms that benefitted workers and farmers. Ahmadinejad has introduced 24% annual inflation and high unemployment.
As for the position of Venezuela and President Hugo Chavez, they are simply wrong. On a diplomatic level, Venezuela and Iran share some things in common. Both are under attack from the U.S., including past efforts at "regime change." Venezuela and other governments around the world will have to deal with Ahmadinejad as the de facto president, so questioning the election could cause diplomatic problems.
But that's no excuse. Chavez has got it exactly backward. The popular movement in the streets will make Iran stronger as it rejects outside interference from the U.S. or anyone else.
This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake. A repressive government has killed at least 17 Iranians and injured hundreds. The mass movement may not be strong enough to topple the system today but is sowing the seeds for future struggles.
The leftist critics must answer the question: Whose side are you on?
- Posted in
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178 Comments so far
Show Allthanks, common dreams. the perfect bedtime story.
Well, this 'story' is exactly what I would expect from Commondreams: a critical analysis and questioning of all things that people just 'assume'. Your statement that it is just a 'bedtime story' seems intellectually lazy, to say the least. If you think that there are some things untrue in this story, you have to come up with a better analysis and present more facts.
What is GREAT is that the posters have already, ahead of time, demolished all three arguments but forth by this propagandist...
which you would know if you read the responses on this site...
unless you're a...
You keep claiming that the author's points have been "demolished," meaning, I assume, that they have been irrevocably refuted.
They have not been so refuted; they have simply been challenged.
q
OK - they have been challenged and the burden of proof has shifted to you.
As you know this, you know the above doesn't cut the mustard. Kudos to CD for pre-discussing what is above.
Burden to prove what? I simply pointed out that you had mischaracterized the responses to the article.
q
And my response is that the responses were already pre-empting his points, and the burden of proof has already shifted.
What didn't you understand?
The Iranian government has banned independent labour unions. Refute that. Inflation is at 24 percent. Refute that.
Champions of the working class. What grand irony. Leftists defending a government that bans independent unions.
And champions of democracy that want to help overturn a probably valid election because they don't like the outcome. Grander irony, still.
"Independent trade unionists were fighting for decent wages and for the right to organize."
Iran has repressed independent trade unions. Independent trade unions are banned.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/
time-end-repression-iran039s-trade-unions-20090501
"The International Union of Food, Agricultural, Hotel, Restaurant, Catering, Tobacco and Allied Workers' Associations (IUF), Education International (EI), the International Transport Workers’ Federation (ITF) and International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC) as well as Iranian workers’ bodies have similarly called for the immediate and unconditional release of Mansour Osanloo and Ebrahim Madadi."
"
Amnesty International has also urged the Iranian authorities to allow peaceful gatherings by workers on May Day. Alireza Saghafy, a member of the Centre for Workers' Rights in Iran, was detained for five hours on 28 April 2009, during which he was reported to have been told to try to prevent a May Day rally planned for Tehran. "
"
Fifty people in Saqez who attended a May Day gathering in 2004 were arrested. Most were released later the same day, but seven spent 12 days in detention before being released on bail. Two were acquitted, but the other five were sentenced to between two and five years' imprisonment, although these convictions were later overturned. One of them, Mahmoud Salehi, eventually spent a year in prison on charges related to his trade union activities."
"
Independent trade unions are banned in Iran. Under Iranian labour legislation, workers are allowed to form Islamic Labour Councils (ILCs) – which cannot defend the terms and conditions of their members - in companies with more than 50 workers. They are not, however, permitted to set up any other labour organization."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
commentisfree/2008/aug/18/
iran.middleeast
The fact that independent trade unions have been banned in Iran does not mean that Iranian workers do not want them.
In the pre-Civil War US, secession from the union was prohibited but there were still secessionists.
There can still be "independent trade unionists" even if the unions that they want are illegal.
q
I am not saying that Iranian workers do not want them.
I am saying that the Iranian GOVERNMENT does not want them. The Iranian government that some on the left are defending. The Iranian government that some on the left are claiming to be a champion of the workers. A government that is deemed to be a champion of workers, banning independent labour unions.
Yes, we sort of figured that Ahmadinejad doesn't want these unions, hence the participation of the unionists in the protests.
Also, I don't recall any claims by anyone on the left that Iran's government is "pro-worker." Perhaps you could provide a couple of examples.
q
Chavez has expressed:
"solidarity of Venezuela in the face of the attack by world capitalism against the people of that country"
I think he's saying that people on the left, who generally claim to be pro-worker, are defending Ahmadinejad, who is not pro-worker.
And what a distortion that is. Posters are not defending Ahmedinejad's policies.
Agree with all the contents of the aricle.There is a minor oversight; the man who took his complaint to God four years ago was indeed Rafsanjani not Karroubi, both of whom pillars of the regime.
His arguments have already been demolished.
I'm no logician, but there certainly are some lame arguments going round. It is especially true when people are bashing Democrats, as when they argue that--because the Democrats aren't aggressively prosecuting Bush II war crimes--they must therefore be complicit in the crimes. You hear people repeat this all the time. They always nod knowingly, as if it were really ironclad sh!t.
You may be no logician, but you're certainly an off-topic troll. Go away.
Oregoncharles
Perry Logan says: It's lame to argue that killers of hundreds of thousands of children, torturers, destroyers of an entire country, liars who took the nation to brutal, illegal wars wars should be held accountable. Perry thinks the best thing is to just let them go scott free. Perry is a deep thinker, eh?
If someone killed Perry logan's children and the judge said, move on folks, nothing to get excited about here, what would our Perry say to that? Would he say: Yes, my kids have been murdered but why dwell on it? The laws are just GD pieces of paper, after all.
If people are allowed to kill Perry's children, steal their pocket money and then allowed - encouraged! - to walk away enriched ..... think about it. This isn't some minor issue. There was murder, torture, lies, billions of our money!
Perry, you're one weird cookie.
actually, winnetou, it's not my job to present facts. while the american press, the msm, and the washington pundits continue to remain infatuated with possible election fraud in a FOREIGN country, the real news escapes us. far be it from me to suggest that you can't see thru the smoke and mirrors.
oh wait, there is the 24/7 hot story going on right now about the loss of america's greatest freak.
and that's a fact. whether you find it "intellectually" newsworthy is totally subjective. until common dreams changes its format, i can write whatever i choose.
He means in the recent demonstrations. Iran has reportedly killed tens of thousands of its own citizens over the last 3 decades under its current government...and under the term of the "reform" candidate.
This article does absolutely nothing to refute the claims of us "wayward leftists" that no evidence of fraud has been presented. The writer acts as if the hearsay he heard on the ground in Iran somehow suffices to prove his case. And where in Iran was he, I would ask? Did he go anywhere outside of Teheran? He also ignores (and conveniently fails to mention) the glaring fact that the Bush administration's plans to destabilize Iran were made quite public in 2007, to say nothing of all the other things that were kept relatively quiet and which one can read about in the recent article by Steve Weissman at truthout.org: http://www.truthout.org/062109Y. Chrissakes, even the USA Today admitted US interference, saying it's a good thing! The writer also makes no mention of the highly suspicious actions of the Mousavi camp, claiming victory even before the polls were closed, despite the pre-election polling that showed they would lose, thus setting up the situation for their fraud claims, which came far too fast to be based on any in-depth assessment of the situation. Indeed, the points he claims we naysayers make are simply strawman arguments set up in order to knock down. Not one of the three "arguments" he "refutes" have any prominence in our skepticism. Indeed he seems to impute a sympathy for Ahmadinejad on our part, which is like saying "you're either with us or against us." I have no sympathy whatsoever for Ahmadinejad or the mullahs' regime, but I also know a propaganda media blitz when I see one, and I know US/Western interference when I see it, especially when the evidence is practically waved in my face. I also know, moreover, that the campaign in the West to demonize Ahmadinejad began from the very moment he took power and actually preceded (and, by inference, elicited) his many strident and provocative statements, which, however disturbing, have been mistranslated and misrepresented in the West. This article, moreover, is full of unsubstantiated assertions, such as: "Actually, Iranians themselves were very worried about election fraud prior to the vote count." Oh, all right, sir, if you say so! Which Iranians do you mean? Did you talk to the whole country? Finally, the writer ignores the principal point of our arguments, which is that, Iranian election fraud or no, we, as presumably "enlightened" Western observers, have no right to decry, especially so forcefully and hypocritically, a political event in a country the internal workings of which are none of our business, especially in the wake of two stolen US elections (for which there is far more evidence than for Iran), the consequences of which have wrought death and violence on a massive scale in many different parts of the globe. The same journalists and talking heads shrieking hysterically about Iran emitted not a whisper about the political crimes that were committed, and are still being committed, in their own back yard. They have no credibility. The US government has no credibility. And all the spineless Europeans joining in the media feeding frenzy have no credibility. Sorry, people, but the Iran fiasco stinks to high heaven, and I'm not talking about the possible fraud. It's just another political crime in a long string of same, at a time when the stench and agony of the victims of all these crimes are spiralling beyond our alredy weary imaginations (witness all the massive bombings in Iraq in the past few weeks). And it's unfortunate that the puppetmasters have exploited what I am sure are true yearnings for greater freedom on the part of many Iranians, but I am also certain that the fomenters of this chaos give not a damn about those Iranians, whom they would just as soon sacrifice as collateral damage in a possible future bombing campaign. The shamelessness and hypocrisy of it all turns my stomach.
You took out the time to make a long and thoughtful post - thank you.
It's like a whack-a-mole; no matter how many times these points have been refuted, they keep returning.
nice post clovis. i agree. he fumbled number one, which is the heart of my criticism. and still they persist. the rest of his piece i thought was done well enough.
To Wanderer: Yes, it is tiring having repeatedly to trot out what has already been established many times over. As with everything else. But somebody's gotta do it, especially if the "free" press won't. We live in a time of Orwellian memory holes, when so many of our news services forget what even they themselves have written and established. Like the myth of Arafat turning down Israel's "generous offer" in 2000, amply deconstructed by the NYT itself in a July 2001 article (by Deborah Sontag). Or the canard of Hamas "breaking the truce" with their rockets in December. Never mind that CNN displayed the falsity of this claim. If the truth doesn't serve the propaganda interests of the day, it's gone. Never happened. Even as it was happening, it didn't happen (to quote Nobel laureate Harold Pinter). God help us all.
Have you ever heard of paragraphs?
q
Paragraphs are overrated, especially in internet comment strings.
Using paragraphs demonstrates that you have organized your thoughts. Your post demonstrates that you did not do so.
q
Wrong. Paragraphs are ESPECIALLY important on the internet.
I see you both have no comment on the actual contents of what I wrote. As for paragraph breaks, feel free to insert them as you wish. In any case it's clear that neither of you has any reading background in Classical literature. Neither the Greeks nor the Romans used paragraph breaks--not, at least, in the short form by which we know them today--and they didn't even use periods, though you could hardly say they didn't take the time to "organize their thoughts." (Mind you, I'm talking about the original texts, not the modern translations.) Closer to our day, Proust's paragraphs (indeed, his sentences) go on for pages and pages, and you can't find thoughts any better "organized" than his. I am, in any case, open to criticism and debate. Just try to be a little less superficial next time.
Actually, I studied Latin in high school. The earliest classical writings did not even have spaces between the words so why didn't you just write one long character string?
Paragraphs were a later development that improved the comprehensbility of writing tremendously.
I have made one comment on your post; it is very poorly organized.
You basically accuse the author of using assertions and then counter them with your own assertions, repeatedly claiming "I am certain" and "I know" without establishing the basis for your certainty outside of your own particular prejudices.
You also insist that certain entities lack credibility without substantiating your claim.
But as for your claim that the author sets up straw men, he lists and quotes specific critics as he challenges them.
Your only substantive point concerns the hypocrisy of American journalists who did not raise the same squawk about Bush's two wins. However, this claim is overly broad as you fail to consider that there were journalists and critics who did document concerns about the validity of those two elections.
Essentially, you commit the same sins which you attribute to the author.
Your point about Proust shows that you have a very exaggerated opinion of your own writing skills. First, because we are writing in English, Faulkner would have been a better example. Secondly, Proust was an artist and pal, you ain't no Proust.
q
Studying Latin in high school doesn't cut it, dude. What's more, you make no cogent argument. Your point about the paragraph breaks, like your present suggestion that since "the earliest classical writings did not even have spaces between the words why didn't [I] just write one long character string," are just flippant comments, not serious criticisms. And your statement that I make assertions without substantiations simply isn't true, if you look again at my post. I cite specific facts that have been generally acknowledged, such as that a campaign to destabilize Iran has been underway for a long time and was not even mentioned by the author of the article. As for saying that I don't "substantiate" my contention that the US government, and the various European governments and their whorish media services--all of whom have been turning blue in the face shaking their dubious fingers at Iran--have no credibility, do I really need to point out that their credibility vanished long ago with their acceptance of Bush's illegal wars in Iran and Afghanistan and their utter unconcern that these same illegal wars were launched by a government in power only thanks to electoral fraud which no one denounced, especially not the journalists that you pretend were "concerned?" Your silly initial point about paragraphs, and the rant that followed, have thus proved nothing, except perhaps your generally petty disposition and a wish to serve as apologist for the political-media-military complex.
If you're going to become so emotional when someone criticizes one of your posts then perhaps you should find something else to do with your time.
You tried to defend your lack of paragraph structure by pointing to the model of ancient writing. I simply suggested that you might want to be a little more consistent.
You cite a source for a "campaign to destabilize" Iran which existed under Bush 43 but have offered no substantiation that such a campaign is still under way under Obama. Also, the author did discuss the matter of foreign interference as a possible source for the demonstrations, showing it to be unlikely. Of course I'm just guessing but he probably didn't mention Bush's shenanigans in 2007 because it's 2009 and the subject is Iran's current political crisis.
Not all media outlets or governments in the western hemisphere accepted Bush's wars in the middle east.
Pretending that someone who disputes your arguments must be in league with your purported "enemies" is pretty childish.
q
"You cite a source for a "campaign to destabilize" Iran which existed under Bush 43 but have offered no substantiation that such a campaign is still under way under Obama"
I have pointed that out too, and as yet nobody has told me if it is in effect under Obama.
I think it's reasonable to say the jury's out, as by definition in possible clandestine operations, it would necessarily be. There's some solid smoke, but I, for one, would admit no fire. And we probably won't see it for some time. As for what Obama is or isn't doing may not be in play in this case. But while I've disagreed with most of your points to now, this one is valid. I haven't seen any evidence indicating that a destabilizing strategy was aimed at electoral destabilization. And until I see that, on that score, I'll have to reserve judgment.
Thanks, and please let me know if you find confirmation one way or another.
Doubtful I can find out much of anything on that issue. I only know about the training ties to the MKO first and second hand. Nothing else. And I actually doubt they would've been involved in this kind of situation. Neda on the other hand...
I would urge caution on the exact and precise level of provocateurship right now. There's undoubtedly been *some* involvement, but even I'll concede this protest event far exceeded what money can buy. I think it wound up being quite complex.
It's the nastiness of your tone that I object to above all, quickstepper. Stepping a little too quickly, I'd say, since it seems to me you're the one getting emotional here, and rather making an ass of yourself, as another poster has already mentioned. And just to address your latest point, you said absolutely nothing to the effect that "I should be more consistent," but simply implied that my lack of paragraph breaks, and the supposedly resultant lack of structure, somehow undermined my argument, as if that had anything to do with the substance of my post. As for my lack of "proof" that Obama is continuing Bush's policy of undermining Iran from within, you surely must be kidding. You likewise cannot prove that he HASN'T continued it and, what's more, given his record on just about everything else--from the bank bailouts to the wars--it's a pretty safe assumption he hasn't changed a thing in covert US Iran policy, to judge from the results we've been seeing. If you want documented proof, read Steve Weissman's piece at truthout.org.
Finally--hey, did you like that paragraph break? Pulled it off pretty deftly, no?--I never said that all media outlets or governments in the Western hemisphere accepted Bush's wars in the Middle East. I live in France, after all, and was very glad that Chirac opposed that folly. But that was then and this is now. What I said, or certainly intended, is that, in general, except for a few rare cases of individual dissent in the MSM, the Western nations, their governments, and their mass media, France included, accept the current status quo of the US's continued ILLEGAL occupation of Iraq (with its attendant death and destruction) and its immoral and unjustified (if theoretically "legal" from a UN standpoint) occupation and destruction of Afghanistan, to say nothing of other American-related shenanigans elsewhere, such as, oh, say, Honduras.
Nor did I say or even imply that you were "in league" with anyone, least of all what you call my "enemies," a word I would never use, since, as a Buddhist and pacifist, I don't consider ANYONE my "enemy," but reject the very concept as being at the root of many of the world's ills. I merely said that you had only succeeded in proving, and I quote, that you were an "apologist" for the complex of interests--political, media, economic, and military--that churns out the lies we are fed daily in the coverage of world events, lies which are used to justify the policies that continue ravaging this fragile world of ours.
Thus do you try, by false inference, to tar me with the dreaded brush of "conspiracy theorist," misrepresenting what I say and mean, for want of a cogent argument to refute my claims. I suggest you learn the rules of proper argumentation before continuing to spew your off-the-cuff superficialities for all to see.
I've pointed this out before. The current occupation of Iraq is not illegal since the U.S. forces are there as agreed to by signed and ratified treaty of both sovereign governments. We may disagree with it and wish it to end more quickly, but it is legal at present.
"Sovereign governments!" You are either a credulous fool or simply cynical.
Well, our government certainly is sovereign. And Iraq's current government is internationally recognized as the legitimate government of that country, was elected in a decent fashion (especially compared to our elections), and is mostly recognized throughout Iraq as being the government, so yes, it is sovereign too. Those are facts, dude. It's that simple.
The "sovereignty" of Iraq's government is a joke. It's about as "sovereign" as a group of hostages being held at gunpoint. It's a puppet government and you know it.
So then what is the sovereign Iraqi government, if not that?
It's an American puppet, that's what.
I'll be more clear. You say the current government of Iraq is not its sovereign government. What is Iraq's sovereign government, then?
It hasn't got one, obviously. The country is in the hands of a foreign occupier.
That may be how you feel, but part of what makes a government sovereign is international recognition, and the world has recognized Iraq's current government. Ambassadors have been exchanged with many countries, treaties have been signed, and Maliki's government has been welcomed at the UN.
"Pretending that someone who disputes your arguments must be in league with your purported "enemies" is pretty childish.
q"
And so is hijacking a substantive thread so you can appoint yourself Grammar Nanny. Make an argument or stfu. Hope you don't mind abbreviations. Stop dragging this crap of a diversion out.