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Iran and Leftist Confusion
When I returned from covering the Iranian elections recently, I was surprised to find my email box filled with progressive authors, academics and bloggers bending themselves into knots about the current crisis in Iran. They cite the long history of U.S. interference in Iran and conclude that the current unrest there must be sponsored or manipulated by the Empire.
That comes as quite a shock to those risking their lives daily on the streets of major Iranian cities fighting for political, social and economic justice.
Some of these authors have even cited my book, The Iran Agenda, as a source to prove U.S. meddling. Whoa there, pardner. Now we're getting personal.
The large majority of American people, particularly leftists and progressives, are sympathetic to the demonstrators in Iran, oppose Iranian government repression and also oppose any U.S. military or political interference in that country. But a small and vocal number of progressives are questioning that view, including authors writing for Monthly Review online, Foreign Policy Journal, and prominent academics such as retired professor James Petras.
They mostly argue by analogy. They correctly cite numerous examples of CIA efforts to overthrow governments, sometimes by manipulating mass demonstrations. But past practice is no proof that it's happening in this particular case. Frankly, the multi-class character of the most recent demonstrations, which arose quickly and spontaneously, were beyond the control of the reformist leaders in Iran, let alone the CIA.
Let's assume for the moment that the U.S. was trying to secretly manipulate the demonstrations for its own purposes. Did it succeed? Or were the protests reflecting 30 years of cumulative anger at a reactionary system that oppresses workers, women, and ethnic minorities, indeed the vast majority of Iranians? Is President Mahmood Ahmadinejad a "nationalist-populist," as claimed by some, and therefore an ally against U.S. domination around the world? Or is he a repressive, authoritarian leader who actually hurts the struggle against U.S. hegemony?
Let's take a look. But first a quick note.
As far as I can tell none of these leftist critics have actually visited Iran, at least not to report on the recent uprisings. Of course, one can have an opinion about a country without first-hand experience there. But in the case of recent events in Iran, it helps to have met people. It helps a lot.
The left-wing Doubting Thomas arguments fall into three broad categories.
1. Assertion: President Mahmood Ahmadinejad won the election, or at a minimum, the opposition hasn't proved otherwise.
Michael Veiluva, Counsel at the Western States Legal Foundation (representing his own views) wrote on the Monthly Review website:
"[U.S. peace groups] are quick to denounce the elections as ‘massively fraudulent' and generally subscribe to the ‘mad mullah' stereotype of the current political system in Iran. There is a remarkable convergence between the tone of these statements and the American right who are hypocritically beating their chests over Iran's ‘stolen' election.
Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, James Petras wrote:
"[N]ot a single shred of evidence in either written or observational form has been presented either before or a week after the vote count. During the entire electoral campaign, no credible (or even dubious) charge of voter tampering was raised."
Actually, Iranians themselves were very worried about election fraud prior to the vote count. When I covered the 2005 elections, Ahmadinejad barely edged out Mehdi Karoubi in the first round of elections. Karoubi raised substantive arguments that he was robbed of his place in the runoff due to vote fraud. But under Iran's clerical system, there's no meaningful appeal. So, as he put it, he took his case to God.
On the day of the 2009 election, election officials illegally barred many opposition observers from the polls. The opposition had planned to use text messaging to communicate local vote tallies to a central location. The government shut down SMS messaging! So the vote count was entirely dependent on a government tally by officials sympathetic to the incumbent.
I heard many anecdotal accounts of voting boxes arriving pre-stuffed and of more ballots being printed than are accounted for in the official registration numbers. It seems unlikely that the Iranian government will allow meaningful appeals or investigations into the various allegations about vote rigging.
A study by two professors at Chatham House and the Institute of Iranian Studies at University of St. Andrews, Scotland, took a close look at the official election results and found some major discrepancies. For Ahmadinejad to have sustained his massive victory in one third of Iran's provinces, he would have had to carry all his supporters, all new voters, all voters previously voting centrist and about 44% of previous reformist voters.
Keep in mind that Ahmadinejad's victory takes place in the context of a highly rigged system. The Guardian Council determines which candidates may run based on their Islamic qualifications. As a result, no woman has ever been allowed to campaign for president and sitting members of parliament were disqualified because they had somehow become un-Islamic.
The constitution of Iran created an authoritarian theocracy in which various elements of the ruling elite could fight out their differences, sometimes through elections and parliamentary debate, sometimes through violent repression. Iran is a classic example of how a country can have competitive elections without being democratic.
2. Assertion: The U.S. has a long history of meddling in Iran, so it must be behind the current unrest.
Jeremy R. Hammond writes in the progressive website Foreign Policy Journal:
"[G]iven the record of U.S. interference in the state affairs of Iran and clear policy of regime change, it certainly seems possible, even likely, that the U.S. had a significant role to play in helping to bring about the recent turmoil in an effort to undermine the government of the Islamic Republic.
Eric Margolis, a columnist for Quebecor Media Company in Canada and a contributor to The Huffington Post, wrote:
"While the majority of protests we see in Tehran are genuine and spontaneous, Western intelligence agencies and media are playing a key role in sustaining the uprising and providing communications, including the newest electronic method, via Twitter. These are covert techniques developed by the US during recent revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia that brought pro-US governments to power."
Both authors cite numerous cases of the U.S. using covert means to overthrow legitimate governments. The CIA engineered large demonstrations, along with assassinations and terrorist bombings, to cause confusion and overthrow the parliamentary government of Iran' Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953. The U.S. used similar methods in an effort to overthrow Hugo Chavez in Venezuela in 2002. (For more details, see my book, Dateline Havana: The Real Story of US Policy and the Future of Cuba.)
Hammond cites my book The Iran Agenda and my interview on Democracy Now to show that the Bush Administration was training and funding ethnic minorities in an effort to overthrow the Iranian government in 2007.
All the arguments are by analogy and implication. Neither the above two authors, nor anyone else of whom I am aware, offers one shred of evidence that the Obama Administration has engineered, or even significantly influenced, the current demonstrations.
Let's look at what actually happened on the ground. Tens of millions of Iranians went to bed on Friday, June 12, convinced that either Mousavi had won the election outright or that there would be runoff between him and Ahmadinejad. They woke up Saturday morning and were stunned. "It was a coup d'etat," several friends told me. The anger cut across class lines and went well beyond Mousavi's core base of students, intellectuals and the well-to-do.
Within two days hundreds of thousands of people were demonstrating peacefully in the streets of Tehran and other major cities. Could the CIA have anticipated the vote count, and on two days notice, mobilized its nefarious networks? Does the CIA even have the kind of extensive networks that would be necessary to control or even influence such a movement? That simultaneously gives the CIA too much credit and underestimates the independence of the mass movement.
As for the charge that the CIA is providing advanced technology like Twitter, pleaaaaaase. In my commentary carried on Reuters, I point out that the vast majority of Iranians have no access to Twitter and that the demonstrations were mostly organized by cell phone and word of mouth.
Many Iranians do watch foreign TV channels via satellite. A sat dish costs only about $100 with no monthly fees, so they are affordable even to the working class. Iranians watched BBC, VOA and other foreign channels in Farsi, leading to government assertions of foreign instigation of the demonstrations. By that logic, Ayatollah Khomeini received support from Britain in the 1979 revolution because of BBC radio's critical coverage of the despotic Shah.
Frankly, based on my observations, no one was leading the demonstrations. During the course of the week after the elections, the mass movement evolved from one protesting vote fraud into one calling for much broader freedoms. You could see it in the changing composition of the marches. There were not only upper middle class kids in tight jeans and designer sun glasses. There were growing numbers of workers and women in very conservative chadors.
Iranian youth particularly resented President Ahmadinejad's support for religious militia attacks on unmarried young men and women walking together and against women not covering enough hair with their hijab. Workers resented the 24 percent annual inflation that robbed them of real wage increases. Independent trade unionists were fighting for decent wages and for the right to organize.
Some demonstrators wanted a more moderate Islamic government. Others advocated a separation of mosque and state, and a return to parliamentary democracy they had before the 1953 coup. But virtually everyone believes that Iran has the right to develop nuclear power, including enriching uranium. Iranians support the Palestinians in their fight against Israeli occupation, and they want to see the U.S. get out of Iraq.
So if they CIA was manipulating the demonstrators, it was doing a piss poor job.
Of course, the CIA would like to have influence in Iran. But that's a far cry from saying it does have influence. By proclaiming the omnipotence of U.S. power, the leftist critics ironically join hands with Ahmadinejad and the reactionary clerics who blame all unrest on the British and U.S.
3. Assertion: Ahmadinejad is a nationalist-populist who opposes U.S. imperialism. Efforts to overthrow him only help the U.S.
James Petras wrote: "Ahmadinejad's strong position on defense matters contrasted with the pro-Western and weak defense posture of many of the campaign propagandists of the opposition...."
"Ahmadinejad's electoral success, seen in historical comparative perspective should not be a surprise. In similar electoral contests between nationalist-populists against pro-Western liberals, the populists have won. Past examples include Peron in Argentina and, most recently, Chavez of Venezuela, [and] Evo Morales in Bolivia."
Venezuela's Foreign Ministry wrote on its website:
"The Bolivarian Government of Venezuela expresses its firm opposition to the vicious and unfounded campaign to discredit the institutions of the Islamic Republic of Iran, unleashed from outside, designed to roil the political climate of our brother country. From Venezuela, we denounce these acts of interference in the internal affairs of the Islamic Republic of Iran, while demanding an immediate halt to the maneuvers to threaten and destabilize the Islamic Revolution."
From 1953-1979, the Shah of Iran brutally repressed his own people and aligned himself with the U.S. and Israel. After the 1979 Islamic Revolution, Iran brutally repressed its own people and broke its alliance with the U.S. and Israel. That apparently causes confusion for some on the left.
I have written numerous articles and books criticizing U.S. policy on Iran, including Bush administration efforts to overthrow the Islamic government. The U.S. raises a series of phony issues, or exaggerates problems, in an effort to impose its domination on Iran. (Examples include Iran's nuclear power program, support for Hamas and Hezbollah, and support for Shiite groups in Iraq.)
During his past four years in office, Ahmadinejad has ramped up Iran's anti-imperialist rhetoric and posed himself as a leader of the Islamic world. That accounts for his fiery rhetoric against Israel and his denial of the Holocaust. (Officially, Ahmadinejad "questions" the Holocaust and says "more study is necessary." That reminds me of the creationists who say there needs to be more study because evolution is only a theory.) As pointed out by the opposition candidates, Ahmadinejad's rhetoric about Israel and Jews has only alienated people around the world and made it more difficult for the Palestinians.
But in the real world, Ahmadinejad has done nothing to support the Palestinians other than sending some funds to Hamas. Despite rhetoric from the U.S. and Israel, Iran has little impact on a struggle that must be resolved by Palestinians and Israelis themselves.
So comparing Ahmadinejad with Chavez or Evo Morales is absurd. I have reported from both Venezuela and Bolivia numerous times. Those countries have genuine mass movements that elected and kept those leaders in power. They have implemented significant reforms that benefitted workers and farmers. Ahmadinejad has introduced 24% annual inflation and high unemployment.
As for the position of Venezuela and President Hugo Chavez, they are simply wrong. On a diplomatic level, Venezuela and Iran share some things in common. Both are under attack from the U.S., including past efforts at "regime change." Venezuela and other governments around the world will have to deal with Ahmadinejad as the de facto president, so questioning the election could cause diplomatic problems.
But that's no excuse. Chavez has got it exactly backward. The popular movement in the streets will make Iran stronger as it rejects outside interference from the U.S. or anyone else.
This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake. A repressive government has killed at least 17 Iranians and injured hundreds. The mass movement may not be strong enough to topple the system today but is sowing the seeds for future struggles.
The leftist critics must answer the question: Whose side are you on?
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178 Comments so far
Show AllIf the NED has interfered (and I'm really just taking your word for it that it has), you still haven't explained what the big deal is. Since you brought it up, please go ahead and explain.
Covert Interference is what the big deal is even as the U.S. lies that it's some independent as well as legitimate movement going on in Iran, free of external influences.
You need to take your blinders off as well. You seem quite gullible to say the least here.
Democracy movements MUST be indigenous and authentic within their cultures, not products of foreign intervention whose aim is to install polyarcy, which purports to be democracy but is a fraud and maintians control by the oligarchy.
Selfdetermination is a very radical concept that scares the hell out of the elite, which is why they work against it--witness Honduras.
This article did not address the efforts of US-based groups like the National Endowment for Democracy (and it's wicked little stepchild, Foundation for Democracy, led by neo-con Kenneth Timmerman) in destabilizing foreign governments with whom we disagree. George Soros' Open Society Institute also practices meddling in foreign elections to benefit the continuance of American imperialism. Look into these groups - I haven't seen any of these so-called progressives sites delve into these elephants in the room.
He also ignores strange details like the fact that some of the rioters (and that's what they were, rioters) were carry signs written in English ("Where is my vote!"). Doesn't anyone find this particularly odd? When we were having mass protests against US aggression in Iraq, were there demonstrators carrying sign written in Arabic? No. These Iranian "demonstrations" were part of a massive propaganda campaign on the American public, and it's strange to see so many erstwhile progressives fall into it so easily.
There is a schism that has developed between leftists, and I think the fault-lines really became apparent when some of us started questioning the validity of the US governments fantastical account of 9/11. Wishful thinking is a heady narcotic, and many "progressives" have fallen under the spell of believing the hogwash that our leaders (and nation) are inherently good and wouldn't seek to manipulate the governed in such a fashion. I'm not one of those progressives...
You are missing the point. It's not about our leaders and nation being inherently good, it's that these theories presuppose 1) that unless the US has engineered it, it can't happen, and 2) US agencies are capable of way more than they actually are (how, for example, do you square the notion of massive US-led uprisings in Iran with the impotence against Castro for five decades?)
The Iranian people have a history of nonviolent action, and by buying into the cynical propaganda from the neo-Marxist bloggers, you are strengthening the hand of a very brutal regime who WANTS you to believe the US was behind this, because it takes power away from the people.
As for why the protesters carried signs in English, it's very simple: they knew international media would be broadcasting the photos, and English is (whether we like it or not) the default language in media. People everywhere around the world understood what the sign "Where is my vote?" meant, which would not have been the case with Farsi. Although the bulk of signs were in Farsi, anyway, so your point is kind of silly.
And it's Farsi they speak in Iran, not Arabic.
Speaking of silly points, I was nice the last time you showed up. Not now. It's wasted on bureaucratic functionaries of the state.
Look, I'll grant you that there are a contingent of posters who are laser-focused on any US role in the protests. I'll also grant that the case to support a conspiracy theory isn't very good, if it's any good at all. Unlike you, I've worked in that world (10 years in MI), and I personally know people who have been involved in destabilizing operations in Iran. But let's discount all of that for the moment.
Here's what pisses me the fuck off. Most of those--like me--weighing in against the protests were not necessarily siding with the mullahs. There was an initial issue that was critical, and in your triumphalist orgy and immediate identification with your fellow urban cosmopolitans, it apparently didn't occur to you that the central claim justifying the demonstrations was incorrect. Many of us smelled a rat, and as time passes, our case grows stronger and yours weaker. The difference? We were worried about the disenfranchisement of ordinary Iranians who--for better or worse--voted for the current President by a solid margin. This wasn't about supporting a theocracy, for chrissakes, it was a reaction to a possibly undemocratic usurpation of what little popular power that exists by a vocal and resource-capable middle and upper middle class group. We weren't certain, we were mostly cautious.
It takes a lot of metaphorical balls this late in the game with the available information out there to waltz in here on your privileged pony to decry "neo-Marxist" bloggers leading us naive working waifs into conspiracy land without engaging at all the central premise of teh argument the bulk of us have made. The election was fair, and until there's proof otherwise, you were supporting an undemocratic action, regardless of what you or I think about the frigging theocracy. I guarantee you, if this looked like a genuine cross-class movement, I would've stood there right with you and the rest of the staff at the Nation.
The first point in this article is unproven still, and on that, everything hinges. You have a lot of gall to desacribe what little leftist press we have as "cynical", when you guys are surfing the CNN wave all the way into these boards.
"There was an initial issue that was critical, and in your triumphalist orgy and immediate identification with your fellow urban cosmopolitans,"
Why are people who are so concerned about the working class normally, not concerned that independent unions are banned, those who try to organise have been jailed, May Day parades have been banned, etc?
Why no identification with your fellow working class?
This must be said gadfly..:) I AM concerned about those issues. Why do you treat this as a mutually exclusive situation? Are you telling me that the protests occured to establish free unionization and working class organization in Iran (like we're doing so well here, right?)? Are you suggesting that I adopt the position that the election--fair or not--be overturned because ordinary Iranians voted against their interests? Would I do such a thing here?
Newsflash: Each of your pimps assume that I approve of the regime per se. I do not. I genuinely wish Iranians would reject a theocratic state. That aid, I respect their sovereignty, and the will of the majority of Iran. If the majority wanted revolution, by all means color me in. But there's no evidence that they do.
You don't need to be snarky with idea that supporting a democratic choice is incompatible with agitating and supporting the class interests of Iranians. They can both be done.
Touché.
Excellent post, Skip. But, as you will note, your current gadfly keeps buzzing. An unpleasant noise, to be sure, but nothing more.
No, you are the one missing the point Cynthia (and by a wide margin at that). There are many world events that happen without US interference (I'm sure Western NGO's and the CIA didn't help the Islamic Revolution in 1979, but it happened), so there was no presupposition on my part. You shouldn't be so naive that you believe that there are those in the US who will happily interfere with internal foreign politics because it has happened time and time again.
It seems you are buying into the belief that groups like the NED and the CIA aren't capable of fomenting revolution in other countries, but how can you doubt their capability when you've seen it happen so many times? Think of all the governments the CIA has successfully overthrown and how many countries they've actually thwarted the democratic will of the populace (I could give you a list, but I'll assume you're at least partially aware of them).
I have no doubt that there are many people in Iran who disagree with the theocratic nature of their government, just not enough to win an election. The Iranian population is young, and many weren't around to see the havoc perpetrated by the US-supported dictator and his secret police forces; there is genuine anger there. My problem is that this "green revolution" bears many of the hallmarks of other US-based "revolutions", and we know that many of the same US organizations involved in these prior "revolutions" most likely had a hand in the failed Iranian one.
The US has been impotent against Castro because the people who've remained on the island nation mostly support Castro. The wealthier white descendants of former Spanish rulers mostly fled to Florida, so there aren't many left in Cuba to help sow discord from the inside (this seems necessary for one of these "colored revolutions" to actually be effective). How many Black Cubans have you seen fleeing to Florida?
I know they speak Farsi in Iran, Cynthia. You need to go back and read my initial post and you'll see that I was wondering why people protesting the Iraq invasion (they speak Arabic in Iraq, Cynthia) weren't holding Arabic signs to appeal to Iraqis. Reading comprehension is fundamental...
Amandla,
They won the election, like in Florida but were denied the victory.
By the way, they are not claiming to be anti theocracy, in fact they clearly declared they fully support the regime under a different president. That is all. Where do you get all these misinformations from?
Cynthia,
Well said. Actually they speak Persian in Iran, which is the English translation of Farsi.(Farce is not a good word in English)
"He also ignores strange details like the fact that some of the rioters (and that's what they were, rioters) were carry signs written in English ("Where is my vote!"). Doesn't anyone find this particularly odd? When we were having mass protests against US aggression in Iraq, were there demonstrators carrying sign written in Arabic?" No. These Iranian "demonstrations" were part of a massive propaganda campaign on the American public, and it's strange to see so many erstwhile progressives fall into it so easily.
Why are those details? Yes it is a propaganda war. For the WORLD. Civilian protesters against an autocratic government have ALWAYS fought a propaganda war. To win against an autocratic government, civilian protesters must fight and win a propaganda war. That you believe it is targeted just at Americans shows the usual American-centric bias. People in Europe can read English. They cannot read Persian. People in OTHER Islamic countries are also more likely to be able to read English than Persian.
"There is a schism that has developed between leftists, and I think the fault-lines really became apparent when some of us started questioning the validity of the US governments fantastical account of 9/11. Wishful thinking is a heady narcotic, and many "progressives" have fallen under the spell of believing the hogwash that our leaders (and nation) are inherently good and wouldn't seek to manipulate the governed in such a fashion. I'm not one of those progressives..."
Wishful thinking is a heady narcotic, and many anti-imperialist leftists have fallen under the spell of believing the hogwash that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Your reply makes no sense. If you are protesting your government, then your message should be for them, not for those around the world who may be watching it on television. Stop and think about the example of the demonstrations against the Iraq invasion that I gave in my original post. Do you remember seeing anyone carrying signs in any other languages than English?
I have no affinity for Ahmadinejad, but I deplore US interference in the internal affairs of other countries, and this is obviously another example of it occurring. Your last statement is just as inane as the first, rfloh.
Excellent and sorely-needed perspective. Thank you.
It's insulting to the Iranian people to keep telling them they are puppets of the United States.
Just as it's naive to think that US agencies aren't behind any uprisings around the world, it's equally naive to think they are behind all of them.
>>It's insulting to the Iranian people to keep telling them they are puppets of the United States.
Why is it insulting? Do you actually READ and understand history and how groups of people have been manipulated?
There are large numbers of students in China who do not believe Tianammen square happened. They feel it was a creation of Western propoganda. In Europe throughout history groups of people have been manipulated LIKE puppets to visit violence upon others with appeals to patriotism or by villification of religous groups.
Look at Iran in 1953...or Chile under Allende. Is it insulting to suggest that the Chileans and Iranins that took to the streets in protest were being MANIPULATED by agencies of that same US Government?
World history is FILLED with a neverending chain of persons in power manipulating others and working them like puppets to achieve a desired end. Should we pretend such does not happen because YOu think it insulting to suggest such?
GwNorth,
In 1953 the Iranian military with the help of CIA staged a coup and brought the popular democratic prime minister down. This is all confirmed, documented and confessed by two American officials. Why are you mixing up the issues?
I am not mixing up the issues. The poster claims that to suggest that the people of Iran are being manipulated is an INSULT to Iranians.
I point out how they were manipulated in the past. If it was 1953 and suggested that the people of Iran were being manipulated would a Ms Boaz claim that the suggestion insulting to Iranians?
Her suggestion that making the claims TODAY is insulting is not logical.
The issues are the same.
GwNorth,
As I said, in 1953 the military and CIA brought the government down with participation of paid off mobs headed by Shaban bi mokh(brainless Shaban) and certain well known females and some sympathizers. Many Iranians were afterwards persecuted, punished and imprisoned until they rose again in 1979 against the Shah by millions.
This is a different story now. These people are not against the regime; they want a different president under the same regime. As you said, Mousavi will not be much different from Ahamadinejad in foreign affairs.
Yes the USA may want to manipulate this but almost all Iranians, left or right, have a very bad memory of American interventions and will not fall for that.
Europe after WW1 said "never again" then 30 years later were marching off to war again.
Americans are fooled time after time in participating in wars based on hype and falsehoods.
It is not a matter of "falling for that". All that is needed is one small group to be funded and supported by the USA to foment unrest. This small group gives the appearance of being "Grass roots" and then millions of others will follow along.
This is not new. This type of stuff has been going on since the Roman times. Its a tactic as old as the hills. The brits did it over and over again In India in order to hang on to their empire.
The people were fooled over and over again.
The problem with the author of this article is he presumes that because the regime in Iran oppressive those that do not believe the election "rigged" or that public opinion being manipulated somehow support oppresive regimes and theocracies.
This is garbage. One does not follow from the other.
Just because people might believe Obama's election was legit , it does not mean they therefore support torture or the bank bail outs.
GwNorth,
Your generalization is amazing. "All that is needed is one small group to be funded and supported by USA to forment unrest".
I am at a loss as to why USA has not been able to do that in China, Russia or Cuba? And if such a wisdom works why China and Russia have not been able to do that to USA?
My dear friend, the issue is much more complex than that and with many many factors involved.
There is a saying in Persian that the one bitten by snake will be afraid of even black or white ropes. The Iranians , like Iraqis and Afghanis have been bitten by the snake of Free Land and Free People before.
Remembe Vietnam? The fool Kennedy, Nixon and Johnson shoud have given some money to a small group of vietnamese and win the war. May be you can talk Obama into giving some money to a group of Pakistanis to win their heart and their land?
"Exporting" "democracy" with a small group of funded people may not always work. That is why the United States has more than seven hundred military bases around the world to defend "democracies" in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Central Asia, Europe, Africa and you name it.
To be fair, we also have military bases inside such "democracies" as Germany, Japan, and South Korea to defend them as well. Of course they weren't democratic countries when we first occupied them, but they certainly are now.
So hopefully we will turn Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Kazakhstan, United Arab Amirate, Bahrin, Kwait, Azerbaijan, into full democracies by our military presece in the the near future. Correct?
abra kadaba.
Nope, just pointing it out. We occupied Germany and Japan out of necessity during WW2. I don't know enough about the Korean War or containment theory to claim that it was necessary to intervene there, but I generally support efforts to resist military conquest, and North Korea's government is surely no shining beacon of human civilization.
zmann,
According to wikipedia Japan and Germany both started their democracies in 1920s and were on their ways to become democratic themselves. I give credit to USA for not trying to set up puppet governments there.
North Korea started its democracy in 1948 after official separation of north and south. Democracy has been up and down there so far.
Uh, I don't think Germany and Japan were remotely democratic by the late 30s. And I meant South Korea, which was mostly undemocratic until the 80s I believe. I wouldn't consider anything in North Korea to be democratic.
>>My dear friend, the issue is much more complex than that and with many many factors involved
I am NOT you dear friend.
And the USA HAS tried to fund groups in China and Cuba and Russia. They failed as it appears they have failed in Iran.
Britain eventually failed in India.
On the other hand the US has had successes using such tactics.
In places like Iran in 1953, Chile under Allende, The Honduras multiple times. Nicaraugua (Unless it yoru contention the Contras were a truely home grown populist uprising) the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan.
Britain help FOUND the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as a counter to Nationalists way back in the late 1800s because they felt by setting Egyptians against one another, they could retain control of that country.
Israel funded Hamas as a counter to Palestinian Nationalists.
The FBI infiltrated peace groups and sparked violent protests in order to discredit them.
The British had agents inside the IRA who were planting bombs and killing Civilians while posing as terrorists.
Now you tell me....
Would the British infiltrate the IRA and say "hey I am actually an agent of the british Government..it would be a GOOD idea if we planted bombs and killed some protestants so they could blanme the IRA"
Or would they pretend to be committed members of the IRA?
This isn't any different from the Cold War era when there were many people on the left(though not a majority) who were very sympathetic to the Soviet Union and the brutal, anti-democratic regimes they backed. These people thought the USSR could do no wrong. If they ever did anything "wrong", it was always in reaction to western capitalist imperialism, lead by the U.S. Or capitalist propagandists made it all up, the Soviets didn't really do anything bad.
So the Soviets and their allies were merely responding to the terrible threat of U.S imperialism, with their routine murder and imprisonment of dissidents in gulags and oppression and the anti-democratic nature of their system. The moronic far-left had no sympathy for Soviet dissidents, since they saw them as greedy, wannabe capitalists. Similarly, in the minds of these same people, the anti-Ahmadinejad protesters in Iran are thought of as spoiled, Prada-wearing, upper middle class Iranians who love to drink alcohol and smoke(and are getting paid or influenced by the CIA), and wish they could exploit the poor of Iran to become even richer - if only their defender Ahmadinejad would get out of the way!
These far-lefty excuse-makers for the Iranian mullahs generally know few if any Iranians, but the biggest experts among them don't know any Iranians at all, hence their "expertise" on this situation. Even better, some of the biggest geniuses among this clique base their expertise on NEVER HAVING BEEN TO IRAN, unlike the author of this article. The funny thing about these left-wing crazies is that most are not Muslim, many are atheists or not religious at all, but they are willing to lock arms with the Muslim extremists of Iran in their struggle against U.S imperialism. I guess if North Korea can do this as a state, why can't they do this as individuals?
Now watch these people claim I watch Fox News or I was a die-hard Bush supporter LOL.
The funny thing is that if you read sites like fifth international, marxist.com, they have come out in support of the protesters.
It is the "realpolitik" types, the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" anti-imperialist types who are coming out in defense of Ahmadinejad. It is the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" anti-imperialist types who have forgotten, or never knew, what Rosa Luxemburg said about freedom:
"Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter."
So, the US isn't meddling in Iranian affairs?
USAID gave $20 million to unnamed Iranian organizations “to promote democracy, human rights, and the rule of law in Iran”
"One of the funnels for funding is the state-funded National Endowment for Democracy, which has been intimately involved in “colour revolutions” in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics. The NED website lists a number of Iranian organisations including the National Iranian American Council as recipients of its funds." -wsws.org
Iranian Organizations mostly located in CA,NY or Washington DC receive the money, laugh all the way to the banks, spend it right here in the great USA and help our economy. What else do we want?
Are you saying it's like a stimulus package?
Sort of. It is mostly spent in Beverly Hill by exiled Iranians of pro Shah faction claiming!! to bring the Mullahs down by silly radio and TV shows.
I wish people were this interested in "stolen elections" in 2006 when there were months of protest and *MILLIONS* of Mexicans that insisted the election was stolen, unlike the few thousand here and there, in wealthy parts of Iran. How many Iranians have access to Twitter, anyway ?
President Bush called up the day of the election in 2006 to
congratulate Calderon on his "victory". Months before he was declared the winner by the national electoral court. I didn't see CNN wring its hands about "a classic example of how a country can have competitive elections without being democratic" THEN.
I guess no American journalist was *qualified* to write a story about that election, because they hadn't just come back from witnessing mass demonstrations in Mexico City - you know, you have to *BE THERE* to know anything about what's going on...
http://theconstantamerican.blogspot.com/2006/07/mexicans-show-americans-how-to-fight.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/leftists-defiant-as-calderon-is-finally-de
clared-president-414812.html
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By the way, reports about that wonderful hero of Democracy, Freedom, and Motherhood, Iranian Presidential candidate Mir-Hossein Mousavi Khameneh, don't mention that he declined the invitation to run for President by the Reformist party in 1997, and their *second choice* candidate, Mohammad Khatami, won by a landslide. So there is hardly a lock on power by one Party in Iran.
"Khatami attracted global attention during his first election to the presidency when, as "a little known cleric, he captured almost 70% of the vote." Khatami had run on a
platform of liberalization and reform. During his two terms as president, Khatami advocated freedom of expression, tolerance and civil society, constructive diplomatic relations with other states including those in the European Union and Asia, and an economic policy that supported a free market and foreign investment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Khatami
Gee, the U.S. Media must have *loved* that guy, no ?
No. They still treated Iran as part of the "Axis of Evil". Repressive Theocracy. The "people" screaming for freedom, etc...
The question remains:
What's the best-advised US policy toward Iran, especially given the current popular ferment there, but also considering the currently dubious if not ruined moral authority of the USA?
Do most protesting Iranians want an end to their Muslim Theocracy, or do they simply want an gentler version of governing religious idiocy?
I hazard an answer with this preface:
since most of us on this website, plus our own bungling, hypocritical government and corrupted MSM, show no reliable grasp of what the protesting Iranians really want,
OUR present government's best policy at the moment is to basically butt-out and, in any political detail at least, just shut-up.
Even slithery Obama was initially inclined in this sensibly non-interventionist direction toward Iran, until he crapped-out to faux-Christian GOP PR challenges to his 'presidential manhood' (macho ironies, here, abounding!)
The USA government has to make it clear (first, to its own, domestic wanna-be theocrats), that magical religious arguments are NOT the basis of America's nor any genuine democracy's public policies domestic or international.
Only then, for example, can a US president, secondly, turn to other, full-blown theocracies like Iran (or Israel, or Saudi Arabia, etc.) and credibly say what needs to be said, namely:
While America won't otherwise interfere with the theocratic rule of you-deepest of existentially-dishonest solipsists, neither will America ever grant you, you ego-monstrous prelates, the benefit of diplomatic doubt when you assert that your alleged 'theocratic democracy' does or ever could represent the popular, freely-informed will of your nation's people.
Obviously, it wouldn't be smart in the present situation for the US to put it quite THAT directly.
But the international political position of any half-way rationally-governed nation shouldn't be too far removed from exactly this kind of secular-normative candor, whenever its officials speak to the rulers of a formally-declared theocracy.
Amen.
Which side are you on?
That's one way to frame the argument and since the question is forwarded to the board, I guess I'll take the jump. Listening to the Erlich, Boaz, Zunes crowd create an us or them frame, I am reminded of those "so called liberals" (as Zunes would say) who voted for and championed Obama and those who didn't vote for him. And those "so called liberals" who were for intervention in Yugoslavia and those who were against it. And those "so called liberals" who were against intervention in Afghanistan and those who were for it.
snark on that.
"The large majority of American people, particularly leftists and progressives, are sympathetic to the demonstrators in Iran, oppose Iranian government repression and also oppose any U.S. military or political interference in that country."
This guy Reese Erlich shows his stripes early on in his article. If he thinks the above quote is true then, well, I'm sure the DLC is rewarding such a position with choice airline tickets and such. Of course the truth is that the large majority of USans, including a large majority of self-proclaimed leftists/progressives, strongly support US imperialism wherever it rears its ugly head. 130 million votes for elite candidates in the 2008 elections testify to that, plus the continued consumption mania and the failure to support leftist causes generally.
Erlich is propagating delusions at best. But there's money in it, he finds, no doubt, just like there's money in SUVs.
I'm writing a biography of Winston Churchill, and I'd say this writer seems a bit confused. Maybe he needs to read more of Paul Craig Roberts as well as other writers like him. At best this is like the Hungarian Uprising in 1956 which the CIA pressed alll out for the people to rebel against Moscow, and some innocent people got killed, but it wasn't the "terrible Communists" in Moscow who caused in. Furthermore, Dwight D Eisenhower had John Foster Dulles, the secretary of state at the time and the brother of Allen Dulles, the CIA director who was stirring up the pot in Hungary to go on TV to announce to people internationally that the USA wasn't going to provide any military support of any kind to that uprising. That's just what this president should do to let the neo cons in the CIA or Pentagon cloak and dagger circles that they can't just go out and get this country in a military confrontation with a government they don't happen to like and especially if such stirring up of the pot has resulted in the deaths of innocents.
AD
The Warsaw Pact invaded Hungary. Why am I not surprised to find a leftist trying to defend those actions? Let me guess, you are also going to defend the crushing of the Prague Spring.
Also some of these "protestors" haven't been at all peaceful from the very start. Maybe this was due to US Government cloak and dagger types' prodding. Regardless, violence as Adlai Stevenson used to say,"begets violence." This was no Ghandian movement for the most part no matter how much hot air CNN puts out to try to create such an image. It's a complete fraud. Those who are non violent deserve better, but many of them probably didn't have anything to do with this whole mess. Many of them probably saw this mess coming.
AD
Also, the militia beating the protesters were never peaceful from the start.
US liberals have been supporting the imperial agenda for three decades most intensely, as a natural outcome of their pursuit of the liberal 'merican dream. This author, Reese Erlich, is trying to defend the liberal tradition. No doubt he wants to keep the petro-fired imperial status quo, cycling between Demok/Repuk control in Washing-town, and enjoy the spoils of empire in classic liberal style. He would like to see the Middle East joint the west in liberal nirvana, with a similar class hierarchy in both worlds, the jet-set privileged elites living large on the backs of the poor. He'll never admit that the Middle East's radical Islam is fueled mainly by western cultural and petro-imperialism. Kaka on his liberal class war vision. The people of the world stand in solidarity against the western liberal elite class war offensive.
To the author, Mr. Erlich: US meddling in Iran is not just old history. Why are you ignoring the fact that in 2007, Bush and Congress approved $400 million for covert action in Iran, funding of Iranian opposition groups and assisting them with electronic technology. Can you say Twitter?
>>This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake. A repressive government has killed at least 17 Iranians and injured hundreds."
Compare this number to the number killed by the Shah or those killed by security forces in El Salvador or in Chile or just recently in Peru. See as another example Uzbehkistan. (many HUNDREDS killed in that country but as allies of the United States there hardly the same codemnation.)
Then of course there Israel and that countries brutal repression of peoples in the region.
Or the 13 protestors shot dead by US forces in Fallujah.
The underlying debate is the hyprocisy exhibited by the nations condemning Iran.
The FACT that double standards are set and that an Iran is villified by every newspaper, every news organization and every Government while much greater excesses are ignored in other States speaks To a TRUTH.
If there IS a difference into how such events are being presented by the Western media and by Governments, then those Governments and the Media are trying to MANIPULATE public opinion.
If they are trying to manipulate public opinion, then they are a participant .
If a person is making the claim that The US, or the Western media does not play a role in these protests and if the same are concerned about the repression and killing of peoples by their Governments, then they should treat all such instances EQUALLY and not pick and choose.
>>This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake
Yes. The Afghanis, the Pakistanis, The iraqis, the Somalians, The Uighurs, the peoples in Dafur, The Rwandans the peoples of the Congo, the Natives of the Amazon are all PEOPLE too and they are real lives dying at the hands of REPRESSIVE regimes including the same Governments now condemning Iran.
Yes by all means let us condemn violence committed by a Government against the people. WHEREVER it happens.
GwNorth,
Nobody is claiming that USA and/or other counties are not trying to take advantage of the situation. As a matter of fact this is the situation and the Iranian regime is well aware of it. BUT it doesn't mean that the uprising is not legitimate as someone called it probably!! sincere!!
It is a true legitimate protest against a stolen election. So we, people shall not support it because at the time we can not support ten other legitimate happenings?
No. We should not be calling the election RIGGED if we have no evidence of such and are unable to present that evidence.
The author of this article sets a double standard. He suggests that because we might disagree with the notion of a Theocracy we MUST support peoples who claim the election rigged.
The election of Mousavi will do NOTHING to expand the human rights of iranians.
You claim it was a stolen election. Where is the proof of that? You assume that because people protest the results it MUST have been stolen.
You assume that because they believe it was stolen, that it must have been stolen.
GwNorth,
I probably wrote this somewhere else. The proof of the theft is all in Mousvi's well documented official complaint and protest in Persian language if you can read it. The officials did not accept it, exactly like the Florida case.
We are not talking about the human rights of Iranians, it is their own business. We are saying that according to the facts, that are ignored and distorted by the regime, this election was stolen. That is all. Now if the right and left want to use it as a playground for their fight it is another matter.
So I am to understand you read Farsi?