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TechnoratiLetter to President Obama
The hour is late. You seem bent on an orchestrated bankruptcy for General Motors on June 1, 2009. Before any irreversible moves are made-- the GM/task force reorganization plan should be submitted to Congress for deliberative review and decision. There are several major concerns with a precipitous bankruptcy declaration that have emerged
over the last several days.
First, the previously understood rationale for bankruptcy-namely obstinate bondholders--no longer applies. Recent developments indicate that GM and the auto task force have revised the proposed allocation of equity in a restructured GM, and reached agreement with at least the most prominent bondholders. Although a June 1 bond payment is due,
it certainly seems that that payment could easily be wrapped into the new bondholder offer, as effectively will be the case if GM enters
bankruptcy.
With the bondholder problem moving toward resolution, or at least now clearly resolvable, there is no evident rationale for bankruptcy other than an unstoppable momentum of some hidden agendas. Given the high stakes, including job losses, communities devastated, the effects on consumer confidence in the GM brand and the socio-economic impacts of
potentially excessive downsizing, a last chance to avoid the tyranny against the weak that is a Chapter 11 bankruptcy court.
Second, the matter of how GM's holdings in China will be treated in bankruptcy continues to demand attention before any filing. Kevin Wale, President and Managing Director of GM China, told CNN that "Our business is run as separate joint-ventures here in China in partnership with SAIC ... so we're profitable, we fund our own investment and we would be largely independent of any action that took place in the US." Yet the GM assets and profits in China must be included in any bankruptcy proceeding, and available to creditors, claimants and litigants who could, conceivably, petition to take the
company into Chapter 7 liquidation.
Has GM clearly presented to the government its valuable holdings, large profits and contractual obligations in China as part of its assets in any bankruptcy? The task force has indicated some uncertainty about these questions.
Third, proceedings in the Chrysler bankruptcy have highlighted the manifold injustice being perpetrated on victims of defective Chrysler products -- and likely also to be perpetrated on victims of GM products. In the Chrysler proceeding, top Chrysler officials have acknowledged that they were ready and able to do a deal with Fiat that established successor liability for the emergent Fiat/"good Chrysler" company. In the course of bankruptcy or in preparing for bankruptcy, however, they reversed course, apparently just because they could. Now, hundreds of Chrysler victims are on track to have their claims
extinguished, unless the bankruptcy judge or other court overrules this element of the bankruptcy plan.
There are many differences between the bankruptcy of the private company, Chrysler and the pending GM bankruptcy, but the GM restructuring plan is similar to Chrysler in the anticipated creation of a bad/old GM and a new/good GM that emerges without liabilities. Does the government as the major owner of GM plan to follow the Chrysler approach? Has President Obama and his Task Force given consideration to the suffering of real adults and children that will follow from such a move?
Not to mention the political backlash.
One such real person is Amanda Dinnigan, a 10-year-old girl from Long Island, New York. Amanda was injured by an allegedly faulty seatbelt in a GMC Envoy that snapped her neck in a crash. Her father, an ironworker, estimates her healthcare costs at $500,000 a year. Her lost quality of life will obviously be tragic. Will a discretionary decision not to establish successorship liability in a discretionary (voluntary) bankruptcy leave Amanda and her family -- and thousands of others like them with no access to justice?
If the Obama officials intend to proceed with maneuvers effectively to extinguish their claims, they should at least talk to some of them first, and confront the human consequences of such actions.
The GM/task force bankruptcy plans appear geared to saving the General Motors entity -- but at a harsh and often avoidable cost to workers, communities, suppliers, consumers, dealers, and the nation's auto manufacturing capacity which will move faster, post bankruptcy, to China.
At this late stage we again urge President Obama to reconsider the bankruptcy filing plans, and to enable deliberative and meaningful Congressional review -- as many Members of Congress are seeking -- of the restructuring plans before irreversible steps are taken.
After all, Congress is more than a potted plant. The "first branch" legislated, after public hearings, the 1979 Chrysler bailout and the complex Conrail restructuring a few years later.
129 Comments so far
Show Allthank you, sioux rose. you are correct about those wake-up calls. it's not so much the fact that we can see them staring us in the face-or some of us can - it's the unpleasantness they carry with them. for all of us.
hey ralph, it's a start. but if you really want to help, read on....
over the barrel
astounding is the simplicity of the disaster.
when we start connecting the dots, when we start following the obvious, when we take a step back and say ohmyfuckinggod, only then is the picture clear.
in cheney's run-up to the iraqi war, many corporations and institutions were approached to play a major part in such an irresponsible act of greed, an act that promised huge slices of pie to those willing to invest in this hostile act of aggression, an act that would be a piece of cake resulting in those rewards of huge slices of pie, rewards in the form of total control over a basically helpless country unable to defend its only natural resource of any significance; this country ruled by no-fly zones, combined with another country infested with some of the most non-caring and complacent and ignorant citizens on the planet, this second country ruled by fear.
these corporations and institutions - banks, the white collar crooks of all time, wall street, ditto, insurance companies, ditto, and automobile manufacturers concretely connected to the invaded country's sole natural resource - all, unbelievably, managed to buy the salesman's pitch, everyone blinded by the greed, a greed so insane that it brought the pompous american empire to its knees and will ultimately bring the world as we know it to ruin; they pooled their financial resources into the salesman and his pet puppet's pet project and with the promise of shock and awe and missions accomplished and bring 'em on and yellow ribbons and plastic sheeting and duct tape and torture and while they waited for the wealth to pour thru the funnel, the salesman, the CONsumate salesman, always one step ahead, had other ideas.
then, inconceivable to the crooks and to the concretely connected, a complete and total and absolute failure of leadership occurred, causing the walls to crumble - previously witnessed by all on that sunny september morn - in such a way that the slices of pie turned to visions of sugar plums, far and distant and untouchable. events happened. bubbles of all kinds began to burst, record prices for the invaded country's natural resource, natural disasters, oh-so-golden parachutes... their investment, billions and billions of dollars, began to disappear quicker than a bush smirk or a cheney sneer. too much. spinning out of control. how to hold the salesman accountable? suddenly, the crooks and the concretely connected concocted the bailout. their bad investment suddenly became an even more brilliant scheme than the salesman had imagined. the salesman connected to it all. even more suddenly, money flowed from the presses. just as suddenly, bankruptcies were handled in record-setting performances. not quite so suddenly, the american people were duped. once again.
and the american people - engrossed in super bowls and lost causes and fat people losing weight and dancing with the starlets and bubba wants another beer - all sat on their collective lazy asses.
chris hedges, david michael green, seymour hirsch, cynthia mckinney, ralph nader, dennis kucinich, keith olbermann, anyone and everyone, the challenge is issued to pick up this ball and run with it.
Sioux Rose
LINO: Much of your passionate post reads like sheer poetry. Bravo. I so agree. I am not cut out to be a Rachel Corrie, so my act of courage is writing, speaking truth to power and educating where I can. You are so right-on in this post! As conclusion to a book I wrote on the end of this phase for mankind ("Neptune and The Final Phase of the Piscean Age") I ask rhetorically, "How can dreamers (or those made somnambulant) recognize (or be summoned to) the awakened state." THAT is what is before us, those of us with eyes wide open, our screams thus far unable to pierce through the dream-world of illusion and deception that keeps so many virtually hypnotized. Of course "reality" enacts a number of instrumental wake-up calls, some about to be upped in their ante.
Some teachers give an F when homework is late. That's just the way it is. Grow up!
Nebraska Nathan___Good comments about Nader and his advice for Obama. However , most here are more concerned with trashing Obama because he has not fixed everything in four months that GWB ruined for eight years. Just because Bush pretended he was king of the world and got away with it, does not mean Obama will trample the laws of the land to get what he wants done. This business of calling some posters trolls is bring done by trolls. Wake up, people, we have a new president, and he is no George Bush, thank goodness.
Kernelz,
"However , most here are more concerned with trashing Obama because he has not fixed everything in four months that GWB ruined for eight years."
He is not trying to fix things he is expanding the reach of the bush programs. Don't let wishful thinking affect your judgment. He serves the same corporate interest as GWB. The only CHANGE you will see is that things are going to get worse. Three wars instead of two(Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan). More conservative activist judges sitting in the Supreme Court, and of course because of the economic troubles, more homeless.
The time to press Obama was BEFORE he picked his Advisers. Wake up, you missed your chance for progressive appointments to the cabinet. CORPORATE AMERICA did not wait and now the whole cabinet is in their hands and so is Obama. And still you say "wait give him more time, he's only been in office for four months". Waiting for thins to happen has never produced good results for the people who wait.
Nobody wants to trash Obama here but we do have the right to raise our concerns about his performance. Some of the anger is wacky but some of it is reasonable but we have our rights to whatever anger or praise we want to heap on Obama. I have heard some say that Nader is a symptom of what's wrong with the Democratic Party and I'm afraid they're correct.
You correct ! The President and the Congress work for us and we have the right to complain as loud as we want to and hope things will be done our way . The problem with standing outside watching the activities we do not have all the details of why things happen as they do . Even though Mr Nader and the rest of us standing outside do not know all the fine details we do have the right to complain about what we see is being done to our way of life .
and to think i thought only porn stars could f--k us that hard!
Nader was right all along that there was no point in bailing out the auto giants. They're not even prepared to reorganize when bankruptcy strikes because for decades they've been riding too high. I say let them fail and choke on it.
We're shifting development and production of personal transport vehicles to small workshops to serve local communities nationwide. This brings employment back to the people, but in particular, a type of employment that serves the people best, because it takes crisis-prone elites out of the loop.
We on the far left proposed this years ago when the neocons set the first fires of the gilded bonanza that is now collapsing in a heap of smoke and rubble.
By taking elites out of the loop we achieve stability. We also achieve self-determination. These go hand in hand, naturally. But there's more: By committing to local, independent production we not only gain dignity for all, but we are able to use that as a motivation to conserve energy, and greatly reduce emissions, including carbon. We commit to increasing the average mpg 8x to around 150 mpg for commuter vehicles.
The designs will be fully free and open standards. They will start with the humble electric golf cart with a small turbo-diesel genset strapped on the back. This happens to be the same basic design used by diesel locomotives, only scaled down. There is plenty of refinement to be made to the golf cart but it simply illustrates the technical approach, series hybrid diesel electric.
Of course we need fewer cars and roads, fewer trucks and much more rail, high speed transcontinental passenger rail. All this is coming. All industry shifting back to the local scale, to small farmers, craftsmen and merchants. Craftsman guilds, cottage industries. Five acre permaculture micro-plantations. A mass mindset that supports local economies via individual demand power. This is where the society is headed, driven by far left principles.
If there is to be true solidarity within the Progressives, then all those who voted for Mr. Obama must give a heart felt, remorseful apology to all of us here.
We need to here the true painful contrition of those who voted for Obama. We need to have details explaining their misguided votes. We need tears of remorse for that vote.
Without this public excoriation there can be no movement forward.
hoytdouglas, I've repeatedly stated I feel my vote has disappointed me. That Obama has not done what he said, that he is a liar, and, for sure, I'm bummed.
Public excoriation? You are dreaming. If you want to do some good, which I doubt any vote you cast ever did, you need to ACT, hoyt, your mouth is just that.
Meet me in person and do some good. I'll give you a heartfelt apology and we will join together with others-I am organizing a protest in SF for this August, please join us.
To query, for info, protest4peace@hushmail.com
hoyt, your post kinda promoted divisiveness, let's act together, not think and talk apart and divided. It would be a pleasure to meet you, It will be cool, in the papers, it will raise awareness, HOYT-I am killing people in AfPak, are you?
And don't even tell me voting for the righteous Nader, a good man, a fine man though he is, helped-if you think it did read the papers-it is time to ACT.
Protest For Peace this Summer, protest4peace@hushmail.com SF, August, refreshments provided.
hopedup
hoytdouglas
where are you? throwing rocks elsewhere I've stated the vote has done little. So has every vote for every person. No? Read the papers. It's time for ACTION, to Protest For Peace,
If you want to DO something useful, contact protest4peace@hushmail.com
August San Francisco
San Francisco August
Civil Disobedience. Non-violent. 100%. US OUT OF AFPAKIRAQ, STOP THE KILLING BRING THE SOLDIERS BACK, repeat. Said as we march, leaflets handed out with truths, contacts made, DC next-my silence is over. is yours?
Did YOUR vote save one life? It is time to Protest, Resist, March in the streets.
If you want to continue attacking others, blow away. If you want to achieve some solidarity, to protest cohesively AGAINST WAR, contact protest4peace@hushmail.com
Unifiers sought
Dividers naught
"It is time for all good Americans to come to the aid of their country's victims."
Azjoe, I hope you are more successful with your protest for peace than we were. I was an organizer for the world can't wait in S. Florida, and let me tell you I came away from that experience totally convinced that the majority of Americans just don't give a crap about other people(specially those that live in the middle east where oil is abundant). Maybe now that the economy is affecting more of the American public, the vast amounts of money being spend on the wars will strike a nerve. Good luck on your endeavor, and if it works out let me know. I have not been active in the protest scene since Murderous Bush/Cheney Cabal left office. My batteries are not quite charged up yet but I'm getting there.
Thank You SanityAssassin, Success would be saving one life. I will fail, but if I try with all my heart I will still respect myself next year. And I harbor hope something may come from the efforts, other, more concerted attempts to Stop The Machine for one minute. It will shriek in agony and fury, that moment is when it's mask comes off and I'm gonna film that.
If I'm not smarter than thugs and killers, I'll just try harder and seek counsel. My government may be a monster, but I am not afraid of monsters.
You're a good man, Joe.
I was wrong about you.
Good Luck in you efforts,
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
I would be happy if people came to the same conclusion in private. But people need to examine why they allowed themselves to be duped. Obama supporters should do some serious soul searching because the next election cycle will be here soon. Unfortunately, Nader is unpopular even on the left (which is truly a sick state of affairs) and the Greens-minus-Nader continue to be DOA.
In four years (or even the next round of Senate and House elections) the Republican boogie men will be brought out to scare progressives into abandoning their cause. Chances are, it will work like it always does. It's vote extortion, pure and simple.
I've got a message for GM. Offer a car that runs on electricity or another clean renewable source, that is safe, and that is affordable. Then you wouldn't have to worry about bankruptcy. Oh, I forgot, this is a message that should have been sent decades ago. Now it's too late.
Who benefits from GM and Chrysler's failure? What interests are behind it, and what do they stand to gain?
Sioux Rose
AZIMAT: I will hazard a guess here. Having read the stunning facts and insights of Ms. Naomi Klein and watched as corporations in a race to the bottom (as per basic wages) worked to deregulate trade so that they could create factories offshore, it seems that there are forces that are gutting America of ALL viable industries. The plants at GM and Chrysler could probably be used to invent and build new forms of infrastructure to GREEN the nation, if a serious "Works Corp" phase was orchestrated to get all the unemployed back to work. Imagine if they could be housed in some of the abandoned homes in regions where such efforts could be implemented. Something sinister has gutted the U.S. dollar, and the deregulation of banks & Wall St had a lot to do with this. It reminds me so much of the "business practices" of Enron. Pushing the glamour of easy money, these "captains of faux industry" set up a model where there ultimately was no actual product. Money was made on trading what someone else's elbow grease created, if there was any entity to trade (apart from betting, the art of the trade) at all. It's like a set of pyarmid scams going on that are eviscerating our economy, and only those scraping the profits off the top enjoy the game. Since they have ample funds to pay off politicians, no regulations are being put in place to stop these behaviors, in fact, just as criminals learn to get better at what they do, the cons at the top are just inventing more ponzi schemes and then holding the US citizen/taxpayer accountable when the scheme implodes. First the S & L deregulation frauds showed the way, then came Enron, the no-bid military contracts with billions just disappeared down the rabbit hole, and now the banks-realtors-Wall st high stakes gambling with the public's money. The only thing missing is Peter Sellers chasing the Pink Panther to expose these farces for what they are.
Hi Sioux Rose,
Citizens that are broke, homeless, struggling. Trying to survive w/o medical or dental care without good jobs then w/o any jobs at all do not demonstrate or protest much. Politics? Hunger, resisting despair, coping with the basics of existence weakens people, shames them, hurts them en mass and eviscerates their will to fight back against their oppressors. Where once the controlling few might have thought the masses best kept content, now kept struggling to survive is recognized as better.
SR, was so blessed, er(wa) called, he spoke so, so highly of you.
Heart & Soul. Hope you are most well.
Sioux Rose
AZJOE: I totally understand about the struggles, yet perhaps because I sometimes visit resort type islands I see lots of people who are just busy getting loaded on weekend nights and could care less about the perturbations in the world around them.
I didn't really understand your last sentence, but as for being well, I am endowed with the power of the Phoenix, and able to rejuvenate myself on a frequent basis. Being a Leo, i.e. a cat, I wonder how many of the 9 lives I've so far "used up"? That's one mystery I won't know till I take my final breath in this particular body. Sweet dreams.
Hi SR, you of many lives left, though true resorts aren't conducive to cerebral introspection, some take that with them where they go. Alas it's a fact too, for some it won't be foisted upon. But parrots, palms, iguanas, coves, waves, gulls, jungle, rainstorms and hurricanes help. I meant that elliot from wa. called, waycoolwaycool, traveling and what is good got touched on, ergo you came up.
My now, Funny you say that, I read saying that
could cause them, for real, so...sweet dreams SR!
Sioux Rose
AZJOE: Although luminous in our forum, Elliott is indeed one multi-dimensional amazing soul with so much to teach so many. Maybe some of us from CD are ready to start networking?
Nader one of the architects of Bush victory in 2000. Nader has no decency as an American. He was more interested in promoting himself (for what reason I have yet to figure out) than really doing the moral thing. He failed America when he could have made the difference but choose not to.
He is not a third party option and should outcast himself in shame. He was silent durning the Bush years, silent on Obama, silent on humanitarian horrors.
He will go down in history not an an advocate but as the man who helped elect Bush in 2000.
Nader was hardly silent during the Bush years. He spoke out against the Iraq war months before it started and has been in favoring of impeaching Bush since at least 2003.
"Nader one of the architects of Bush victory in 2000. Nader has no decency as an American."
Nicholas,
Not true. Mr.Nader accomplished more in one life time than most could accomplish in ten life times. His life work has benefited people the world over. If there is such a thing as great citizens of this planet...he is one of them.
"Nader has no decency as an American."
What a ridicules statement. You could only dream of presenting a life resume comparable to that of Mr. Nader.
Are we supposed to take you seriously? You are a judge of decency?
troll
Here we go again: another D sour grapes. Kill the messenger and ignore the corruption. Ignore the fact that the election was stolen by a politicized SCOTUS; ignore the fact that our electoral and campaign system is corrupt to the bone: democracy for the highest bidder. Ignore how the winner-takes all election works.
But hey, instead of reading, listening and thinking about what Nader has to say, we can just scapegoat him for all our troubles. It is too difficult to crack open a couple textbooks about electoral systems and democratic theory and actually think seriously and ask questions.
Let's just stick our heads in the sand and pretend that we live in a democracy and that bad old Nader ruined everything for our glorious and non-corrupted Democratic Party. If Nader had not come around, we would have Utopia by now, right?
You suggested reading "Professor Robert Dahl" (in a previuos tread on Nader)which of his books would you recommend to get a true sense of his philosophy? I am always looking to be educated/enlighted. I am being sincere "Socialist"? You also suggested Arend Lijphardt which book would you suggust?
My feeling towards Nader are sincere and my anger/diappointment for him is profound it would be a very high hurdle to overcome in this lifetime. The video availible on goggle video by Cynthia McKinney "American Blackout" reveals quite well the machine behind the Bush coup d'etat in 2000 which was planned in the preciding years. I truly believe Nader contributed to the Bush coup by mudding the water for the coup which was bloodless until the Iraq war - which as also planned in the preciding years.
Understand too that my anger for Nader is very real and I will continue to express my views on him on Common Dreams and other public forums.
I vowed never to support the Green Party after Nader hi-jacked it for his purposes but I did vote for Cynthia McKinney for President who ran on the Green Party ticket in 2008. I really don't want to vote anymore because it is worthless and feeds the lie/myth that people voting is nothing more than an illusion. I voted to show my support for her personally. Here in San Francscio she got about 32% of the vote in 2008.
nicholas101,
What foolishness you spew. Ralph Nader has fought for the little guy his whole life. Besides a few books being sold, he has not profited by following the dictates of his own heart at all. If the Sore/Loserman Dem ticket was so weak that it was threatened by a 3 percent third party candidate like Ralph Nader, then Gore did not deserve to win.
Do you think your "Nader Conspiracy Theory" could have factored in Gore losing his own state? Or Gore losing Bill Clinton's state: Arkansas?
You are delusional sir, imho.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
true-- and you can see from their posts what little difference there is between Democrats and Republicans.
Go Nader!.
I am a bit puzzled by Ralph's position.
After years of preaching about how we are run by big corporations, which is true, he sounds like he is now committed to the Federal Reserve plan of "Too big to Fail".
As we go deeper in debt, not many will be able to afford a new car. Of course many thousands of lost jobs is bad and that is why they are TOO BIG to make it now. The market is flooded with new cars from many manufactures.
I would like Ralph to explain this turnaround and what all this borrowed money is gonna do for the economy and for common people.
No Jim,
That's not it at all. I glean that Ralph's point is that evil GM is hiding Billions "off-book" in China so that they can look poorer and need more help than they really do. This is familiar ground for Nader to comment on, because he spent years battling GM's lies that they could not afford to put seat belts and airbags in.
If GM has squirreled away billions in China, they cannot pretend that China Ops are a different company. But that is exactly what they are trying to do, ala bankster robberies of TARP: "Give us blank checks or you all will be homeless!
No matter how deep the US Titanic economy sinks, GM can always sell crap cars to China and India. So Obomer is really bailing out China GM, who is currently profitable. Detroit jobs are history, imho.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Once again, the insights of Ralph Nader are invaluable.
Awwww, poor Ralphie. Another silly letter begging Obama to do everything he says eh? Ralph Nader should shut up and help others who want to be progressive and independent like him. Writing letters to the president is a waste of time. Obama is dealing with the country not with purists such as Nader and Mckinney. If Nader had learned to shut up and compromise, he would have at least made it to mayor but he can't and he won't. Mr. Nader, you lost. Get over it. Nobody cares what you think except for the less than one percent of those who voted for you last time. You can't keep writing silly letters to the president and expect him to follow your stupid orders just because you are upset that you couldn't run a campaign or win. Try helping locals across the country who share your vision. Maybe someday we'll have people like you when we're ready to accept. Until then, stop being a sore loser and a crybaby. LOL !
Just curious N. Man. are you about 25 going on 9?
Can someone PLEASE explain why rude trolls in the classical sense like NN and Encino M can continue to post here, while people like Thomas More, who we all have disagreements with, but was otherwise a paragon of civility, get banned?
Good question. I was surprised that TM got banned and he didn't do anything wrong and was in fact a gentleman even if we had a lot to disagree with him. I am already feeling that discussions on this site are just not the same without Thomas More. Rightwing trolls will always come and go but Thomas More is one man of reason despite some of his oppositions that most of us loved to engage with him on a lot of issues. He knew where to find common ground at some point in the discussions or if he couldn't he would politely let us know about it. While I haven't spoken to him a lot, I wished I could tell him how much we miss him. :(
P.S.: BeForKids said that sometimes it could just be a technical glitch and that the admin will restore the account. I hope so. I miss his posts almost as much as I miss JenniferB and Red Rick.
Yeah, NN has impressed us before with his brilliant insights and profound knowledge. This comment is no different; man he should write a column for WaPo, he would be a perfect fit
Stupid? I'm going to have to take your word on that, since you're clearly an expert on the subject.
No, Obama isn't reading any letters from Ralph Nader.
For one thing, whatever his critics and detractors may claim, Ralph is not and never has been a bankster-- or a top-ranking military officer. And Obama has one of each hanging from his ears.
And Obama already dissed Nader during the campaign-- Nader, after all, is a hero of the Sixties, which Obama regards as the Darkness before the Dawn of Morning in Amerika; Obama emulates the Sun King Reagan, the putative Great Communicator who also believed in Moving Forward at all costs.
Remember: in 1952, Charles Wilson, head of General Motors and later Secretary of Defense, uttered the famous quote "What is good for the country is good for General Motors, and what's good for General Motors is good for the country."
If Wilson were alive today, he'd be Obama's Secretary of Transportation.
Forward into the past!
PS: Speaking of lame comedies, it's a thrill to have "Encino Man" commenting here.
But he seemed so much SMARTER in the movie!
· Yr Obd't Servant
Nader has too much class and intelligence for Americans. America deserves a con-artist, a Bush clone like Obama as president, not someone practical, honest and principled like Nader.
What kind of a man do you see Americans choosing to run a country like the US anyway, where 95% of the world serial killers live, where the vast majority of illegal drugs consumers live, the world’s greatest polluter, the greatest exporter of arms, the greatest sponsor and financier of terror and guerrilla in order to establish chaos and further the empire in multiple spots on the planet? A man like Nader? Never.
Such perverted environment is perfect breeding ground for bacteria and superbugs like Reagan, Bush, Cheney, Clinton and Obama, a reflection of Americans themselves.
To the second paragraph of Obusha May 30th, 2009 12:44 pm, one can add:
where since 1968 well over a million people have been killed by firearms (Bob Herbert, "Hooked on Violence," New York Times, April 26, 2007), where 1 in 100 adults is now in prison, i.e., where, as of 2008, 2,319,258 Americans are behind bars, the most of any nation...
The world is absurd because it's human beings who don't make any sense. Now that conditions exist for human beings to drastically alter life on this flat earth, or possibly even end it, they still don't make any sense. The world is still flat; the earth was created in six days and the end, the final battle between Good and Evil, is just around the corner, any day now. It will be broadcast in High Definition and Borax Obysmal wants us all to buy a new HD tv. It's good for the economy.
I know you were being your usual humorous self (which is always appreciated), but I cannot resist the impulse to offer a serious response.
I am always trying to adjust my model of the world, and of human individuals within it, so that it makes sense to me. In my model, every individual belongs to numerous groups, including the group of one (self), more attached to some than to others. All of these groups are at cross-purposes to some degree, and sometimes are completely opposed. This creates conflict and chaos, but it can be understood to some extent. A complicating factor is that individuals within groups may disagree on what goals the group should have (in part because of different information and beliefs), including the extent to which goals should be short-term, medium-term, long-term, or very long-term (involving future generations), and on how to achieve those goals. Another complicating factor is that some individuals, sometimes acting alone or as part of a group, acting in self-interest intentionally spread disinformation, sometimes involving the creation of entire illusions, to those in other groups. So I use whatever information I have available that I believe to be reliable to determine which individuals identify with which groups and which goals the groups are trying to achieve and what means they are using to achieve them.
Of course the real "out there" is of unbounded complexity, and one's model must remain finite and manageable, so generalizations and guesses, that come with inevitable errors, must constantly be made. But I still believe that trying to maintain a model I believe in is a big part of what keeps me sane and makes life worth living.
I should add that very few, or at least a small percentage of human individuals, think of their group, especially their primary group, as the human race. This is understandable because group affinity is built on receiving rewards for group membership and there are few rewards for just being a member of the human race. Related to this and in part because of it, I have to agree with you that the prospects for human survival in the long term, particularly in the very long term, appear dim.
Sioux Rose
Alas, Kivals, if you brought that analytical mind into the study of astrology, and I do not mean the superficial parlor talk of sun signs, you would understand what these group affinities really mean, and upon what inner bases their attractions form. I have learned so much about human motivation and its 12 quintessential styles or perhaps I should say flavors. The planets like notes of a metaphysical alphabet spell out a great deal, items NEVER uncovered by psychology or sociology because those studies generalize as if all humanity marched to the same basic drummer. Without the understanding of the 12 quintessential motivations, the archetypes that move each of us to varying degrees, that higher realization that ties it all together is lost, or not yet discovered.
Hi Sioux Rose. Fascinating suggestion, but I think that ship has sailed for me as I am stuck in my own ways of doing things. I am sure your way works for you, but I better stick with my way as I have convinced myself it works for me (regardless of whether it does!). I do enjoy reading your posts to learn your perspective, however. Thanks for that.
Sioux Rose
KIVALS: That's fine. Tell me, where would you see yourself sitting in this room: one of my favorite memories at college took place one night when about 22 of us were in a room, and yes, some joints were going round and round, and the discussion focused on the concept of infinity. I knew most of the people in the circle, knew which ones were majoring in the "hard" sciences, versus those of us in the humanities. And it was as if the circle cleaved down the middle with those who were natural logicians absolutely and utterly convinced that with the right measuring devices, they could at last measure infinity! The more liberal arts types like myself cracked up, as the ones insisting to this thing had no idea that they were unable to grasp what the premise of infinity meant.
Are you a measurer, or do you realize the futilty of attempting to limit that which has no beginning or end? If I sound Zen, I just had a decent glass of wine, and did a lot of yard work today, so I am actually relaxing. Friends are driving up from the Florida Keys tomorrow, and I want my place to make them feel at home.
I enjoyed the university and stayed around to take over 200 hours as an undergraduate, then around another 70-80 in grad school and another 90-100 in law school. As an undergraduate, I took quite a few courses in the hard sciences and math and also quite a number in the soft sciences and humanities. As a math minor, I would say that anyone who claims to be able to measure infinity is silly, as by definition it defies measurement. My favorite math class was actually Analysis, which is the study of infinity. More than any other class (out of over 100), that one changed the way I thought about the world and all phenonema of nature, including human behavior. I began to understand the theoretical as well as practical limitations on knowledge.
kivals, this would tend to begin to explain why your posts (and others) are so good. I believe you are a "polymath" as they used to say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath
I would implore you to write more at CD. To educate us on areas you are enlightened in.
Infinity: the amount of bailout money available to the elite, and the amount of time future generations of Americans will be obligated to pay. (This coincidentally, is what caused the French Revolution and why TJ was so suspicious of bankers after he had lived there as US ambassador.)
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
I never heard of that definition of "infinity" but it is a good one. And thanks so much for the kind words.
Sioux Rose
T.J. I agree, Kivals offers MUCH to this forum. I call him "the mathematician."
By the way, your definition of infinity is particularly apt.
What a thoughtful, kind, and delightful person you are! But please do not call me a mathematician, as I am not one, though I do enjoy the study of mathematics. I am just a humble attorney.
Sioux Rose
KIVALS: I think highly of you, your decency reverberates through the forum. And I am so glad that you never sold your soul in your profession. Perhaps having a lovely wife from a wise and ancient culture, no doubt endowed with wisdom of her own helps to center you and keep your compass pointing at the true north star of compassion (as) wedded to Truth.
Thanks Rose,
But I defer to your much more gifted pen. Would that I had been so lucky to have been one of the 22 in the circle back then. Must have been quite a conversation.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Sioux Rose
THOMAS JEFFERSON: What a kind thing to say. Many thanks. I see your pen is gifted as well, and I appreciate what you add to this forum.
It was refreshing to see Kivals demonstrate his philosophical side, that which transcends "the math," as my point was that it was the science/math majors who argued for MEASURING infinity! And they did NOT get it when those of us who saw beyond their limited paradigm tried to enlighten them! I suppose this is akin to those who can only see two political parties, and argue endlessly over the perspectives of each based on complex comparisons, a process made poignant and ironic given there is little contrast in terms of substance (style may be another thing) between these two.
Perhaps someone in the forum recalls the title of a story about beings that inhabited a two-dimensional world. Since no one ever thought of looking up, they were locked into very self-limiting routines, until one of them discovered the 3rd dimension of volume (as opposed to just left/right). This story is a parable that in metaphor describes those who insist on two parties, and view the world through a prism based on polarity. This is why the circle, whether King Arthur's or the group of 22 mentioned, or the astro-logos model helps us transcend ourselves and break through what otherwise will trap and inhibit us as a species.
Not only does ONE size not fit all, neither does two!
It's very interesting, this question of groups. I've thought about it a LOT for years. It seems that in our far left utopia there are two groups that matter very much, the individual and the whole, while all groups in-between should matter very little. I believe this structure may withstand a million what-if tests, and render maximum universal fulfillment, assuming the dark forces are kept at bay. The structure fundamentally addresses this very question. It deters the buildup of armies to perpetrate class war, the grand-daddy of all conflicts. Picture if you will children innocently forming a group, then running to their caretaker and pleading guilty to the taboo. At this point the caretaker assures them that if the group submits to the individual and the whole, it's ok. The kids will learn. They learn fast. It's important what the society teaches the kids, and expects from them.
:...far left utopia there are two groups that matter very much, the individual and the whole..."
Good point!
The far left leaves out all those imaginary friends you right-wingers have. DISCRIMINATION!!
"It seems that in our far left utopia there are two groups that matter very much, the individual and the whole, while all groups in-between should matter very little."
Those are the two groups I believe we should most focus on and emphasize the importance of, as all other groupings can potentially lead to human-to-human conflict, which is dangerous and can always escalate until utter catastrophe. However, I believe we find great comfort and stimulation in finding regular positive feedback from other humans, and small groups, such as that of the family, offer that possibility, though I do recognize the importance of maximizing the harmony between any such groups and the whole human group. However, we can probably agree that the nation grouping and the state grouping create more risk of harm than good.
Yes, the great science of pataphysics is alive and well in this geocentric universe of ours created six thousand years ago.
Père Ubu rules!
Thank you Ralph Nader for trying to wake Obama up. Big Auto has no respect for the lives of its workers or its customers. I applaud Nader for saying no to bailing them out. All Big Auto cares about is itself and only for money and nothing else. Last year, when it was reported that for every lunch he had with Amtrack, he had 4 with Big Auto, I suspected that he might be in favor of Big Auto. I can also never forgive Obama for once saying that he'd give the money to the companies and has faith that they would automatically help their workers. They never were helpful and never will be helpful. Obama has no respect for the workers or the customers just like the Big Auto execs. After countless number of injuries and fatalities thanks to bad manufacturing and workers getting cheated despite their selfless loyalty, I'm all for giving Big Auto the death penalty. Let them FAIL and collapse. No bailouts or protections for those corporate traitors !!
Ralph Nader is just another also-ran boy simply trying to outdo Lyndon Larouche. In between the elections where was Nader ? Writing worthless articles such as this one? Why should Obama listen to losers such as Nader? Nader could care less about how far "progressive" Democrats go since he never supports anyone just because they're Democrat. Nader is a joke of the man who fought for the people in the 60's and 70's. Today he is a bitter old geezer who does not know that his 15 minutes is over. Nader's only other goal other than playing spoiler like a stupid kid is bashing corporations which everyone despends on. Nader can keep his letters to the president to himself. Bush never bothered with them and neither will Obama.
Obama has tried to help the ailing auto companies out but the market has been sputtering for a while. When Obama tried to bailout the companies so that this mess wouldn't happened, you all were against it and see what happens when you bash corporations? Watch your pensions and savings disappear when these companies collapse.
Blaming Obama for the 10 year old's neck snap is just plain stupid. The fault lie with either poor manufacturing or the guy not driving well. Speedy drivers often cause all the troubles. Manufacturers can only go so far in getting their seatbelts as secure as possible but the driver is ultimately responsible.
Vote for Nader and don't complain when the next Republican in 2012 is president.
Wow thats stupid.
Do you really think that those "corporations that every depends on" give a rats ass about you?
Its sad that you don't understand that the reason why we don't have a real democracy is because policy & legislation is actually created and pushed through by these corporations that care about themselves, and not about you.
What a sham. But you saw that commercial, and actually bought that stuff.
I personally know people who have no: electricity, no public water, no gas, no phone.
BY CHOICE!
Sorry bud, your wrong, everybody does not depend on corporations, but they pulled that wool over your eyes!!! People depending on people makes more sense.
You can actually choose witch companies you support, but you can not pick which companies run the government. Thats not a democracy.
The only reason why I read the Nader article, is because Nader is very perceptive about who actually calls the shots in Washinton. -your beloved corporation.
Why do you think we are in the mess we are in now?
The American people?
Or the American corporations?
And yes you only have 2 choices, because you have now just learned who it actually running the government: American corporations.
Here is what you get when corporations run your government:
War profiteering in the billions, lack of new energy technology, broken health care system, broken banking system, worthless American products like GM, rip off issuance scams, broken economy, falsely educated population, drastically underfunded free schooling, etc, etc.
Thats your "free market" for you.
If we all started a small business, and got away from the larger corporations, we would be fine, now wouldn't we? But instead they have trained us to believe that we depend on them. You depend on them. Its your life style thats the problem.
Go work for your huge corporations, they will chew you up, and spit you out.
avlhostel, excellent comments.
I will not work for, or buy products(other than fuel and food) from Big corporations, but at the rate witch small business are going out of business, soon we will not have a choice in the matter. These ruthless corporatist Bastards will not stop until all of the small business are gone.
When I was growing up we had small restaurants, neighborhood grocery stores, local hardware stores and pharmacies. Now, for the most part all you see are chains. Is not just conditioning, these bastards have made it a priority to destroy the wealth and independence of the middle class.
I would love nothing better that to live with " no electricity, no public water, no gas, no phone.", but then I would not have a house, or my pets, on my girlfriend or my small business. I would be homeless, and I would not have the money for the basic necessities of life. Perhaps you could elaborate on how the people you know manage this way of life.
I look forward to your reply.
Thank you,
In my little rant at the common troll, I was referring to my first best friend who's parents have had an "off the grid" home since the early 70's.
They (coincidently enough) just came into town the other day, after not having seen them for years, and I asked them if they had any of those common utility's on there property, and they still do not.
One of them was checking email at my place, and I was wondering where they would check their email at home, and the answer was essentially "next door".
Most people would consider that extreme, but then I was in the pit mashing up mud when I was 5 years old, for the adobe house that they live in today, so it does not seem strange, or unusual a life style at all to me now.
It seems much more natural than most of the average 'Merkans I see these days.
Or the ones that I grew up with, going to horrible public schools.
I believe that technology is the only savior of our future. We abandoned science during the beginning of this century. I am hoping that is over now, but I have my doubts with Obama.
If we can provide free internet access to all Americans, and Obama has made a point of claiming that, then we have what we need beyond electricity itself to stay interconnected.
We are very close if not already able to efficiently make our own electricity affordable at least over a few years & if there is anything seriously good out of this administration, I would hope that it is his promise of energy innovation, or better, and not just the promise of expanded war on Afghanistan & Pakistan.
A failure of the large corporations ("that we rely on") may not be so bad, but only if we are prepared to survive with the people that we know locally. America is not trained to rely on neighbors, but on corporations & faith in mythology.
After all, there is very little separation of church & state let alone separation of corporate control over the US government.
Good night, and good luck,
avlhostel
A P.S. to EncinoM's ignorant and rude posting: No one should dare to compare Nader to Larouche. Nader has always represented the most consistent, rational and benevolent side of the U.S. and provided constructive and principled critiques of the system's failings, whereas Larouche and his gangs are intellectual terrorists who, while providing the odd nugget of historical interest in their publications and claiming to be the heirs of 18th-century rationalists, devote much of their time and publication space to spewing paranoid hatred and spinning complicated webs with glaring failures to provide solid evidence or argumentation, missing every opportunity for reasoned discourse and effective criticism. Where Nader avoids personal attacks, Larouche's people employ ad hominem attacks almost all the time.
Nader's open letter about the auto industry is well-reasoned, logical, and substantive. If Pres. Obama chooses to ignore it, we all know why - it is not because Nader argues and campaigns like Larouche.
EncinoM,
At least Nader has done something constructive with his life to try to help humanity. What the f*** have you done to help humanity?
I've been a mercenary, a top-notch manager at a health insurance company helping to keep the company in order and riding high along with keeping the company's business customers satisfied, and a tough entrepreneur. I pulled myself up and well on my own and never relied on government money to take care of my health or safety. I saved a lot of lives by being a mercenary and later a high ratings manager helping to keep customers happy. Ralph Nader has done nothing for decades except write silly letters which he could keep to himself. Obama has no obligation to pay attention to his nonsense.
Yeah, EncinoM you really moved up in the World.
You are one strange puppy. You kill people and then you work as a manager for a health insurance company. If this is true( which I serious doubt ) you should do yourself a favor and stop being a murderous parasite on society. I know that you get your jollies from being a prick to others, but come on. Tell me do you enjoy being in a position of power or is it just about the money.
It is no wonder at all that the health care industry is so F-----d up. If the other people managing health insurance companies care as much as you do about people getting better its a wonder that anyone who pays for health insurance get any service.
It's a bird! it's a Plane! It's a gang killing Vigilante! it's A corporate warrior! it's a soldier of fortune! it's a fearless blogger! it's a self aggrandizing, fantasy hero & compulsive liar ! Its ENCINOMAN!!!!!
Faster than a speeding bullet....
EncinoM, hi, hope you are well.
Just a heads-up, you aren't in a redneck bar here trying to impress drunks.
You are on Common Dreams trying to impress yourself.
Mercenaries are losers who go where people are poor and trying to survive and then kill them. Usually the murder victims are unarmed, children, women, men. Babies, often bayonetted to save bullets.
AND, you ALSO, are a "tough" entrepeneur. grrrrrowwwllll tiger!
Truly? You sound like one dangerous, scary guy!
I got an idea. Encino is in LA. Go to Compton tonight and walk the alleys and sidewalks and tell the people you see how tough you are. I promise you they will help you.
I will know if you do this. Because today will be the last day you breath air if you do, and thus you won't post anymore, but, I'm betting you would start wetting your pants in Compton at 3:00 a.m. tonite, or in front of my 18 year old daughter at high noon if she decided to drop you! Stay safe. If you need to, call the police. They are there to protect you.
(pssss, hey encino, hey, Tough guys never ever EVER have to talk about it, and in fact, laugh at people who do! Because they NEVER are! That was the give-away!)
I spent thirty-three years and four months in actve service as a member of our most agile military force-the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lietenant to major general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Sreet, and for bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism....Thus I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American Oil interests in 1914. I heped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in....I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903.
General Smedley D. Butler
Hey tough guy, watch your back. There's a whole bunch of guys just like you coming back from Iraq looking for work. And when you lose your nuts, don't try to get your health insurance to cover medical costs. Remember that tough guys like you don't need help. You pulled yourself up. You da man! Nobody recruited you because you were remoresless and heartless. It's not your fault that you were molded like silly putty by the corporations into a proud, easily replacable cog. Have another banana.
Makes perfect sense why this Cat loves Obama, just another corporate shill collecting his blood money and living in his cute little house on Sunny Side Street spewing carbon fumes from his SUV. Another corporate 'yes' man on a mission to collect a paycheck and look out for numero uno.
EM is not a cat. He's a deranged lunatic. Cats are nice furry animals who are kind and loving, not deranged lunatics such as EM.
EM is one of the 6 milliion or so psychopaths who currently are citizens of this country.
The word when you deal with a conscienceless, unfeeling, totally out-for-him[her]self psychopath is NO CONTACT. Don't let him/her get to you. IGNORE! Psychopaths cannot stand to be ignored. So IGNORE!
peace, cm
I just thought that since he was new to the forum that maybe we could reason with him. He seems to have made himself loud and clear. I read his rants again and I think I meant to say sociopath instead of psychopath but since neither of them can be reasoned with, I guess it doesn't matter. At this point, ignoring him sounds like a great idea. I wouldn't want to see this forum get turned from intelligent discussions into a Faux Noise circus arena.
A man like Ralph Nader did more for the American people by the time he was 28 years old than you have done in your whole career, my self-centred, materialistic, shallow egocentric friend. I personally don't give f%&* if you made 25 Billion dollars single-handedly and killed a thousand people. Save a lot of lives as a mercenary? Did you work for the Mafia?
Before you go shooting your mouth of about Nader why don't you read up on his history, you might be surprised.
"A man like Ralph Nader did more for the American people by the time he was 28 years old"
If you mean being a big talker, yeah that's alot. LOL !
"Did you work for the Mafia? "
Nope. As a police officer, I cracked down on a couple of mafia wannabees.
Why don't you crack open a book and read about Nader since you obviously know nothing about him. I know it is more difficult to read books than to get your info from TV or talk radio, but in order to have a constructive argument it would really help. You might not realize it, your claims make you look ignorant, and cannot be taken seriously.
Guys,
It's clear from his lack of vocabulary, that "Encino-Man" is a cave man who cannot read. His attempt to learn at CD or about Ralph Nadar would be just like a dog watching T.V.
He can see the lights, and he knows something is going on..... he just doesn't understand it.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
It makes sense that a health insurance company would hire a mercenary to keep the business customers satisfied, since keeping the business customers "satisfied" requires a willingness to deny care to consumers who have paid for it. That is how health insurance companies make the big bucks. Mercenaries are also willing to destroy lives at their employer's behest.
A lack of compassion would be a prerequisite for either job.
I forgot to mention that I was also a former police officer at NYPD before I headed towards my job as a patriotic mercenary. If it weren't for those damn unions and stupid gangsters complaining about police brutality all the time, I would have stayed an officer instead of being another victim of layoffs thanks to those damn unions causing trouble. At least I enjoyed using my baton where necessary and keeping the streets safer. My skills were helpful when I fought overseas. I don't like to hurt and kill people but even a kid can be such a trouble maker and when they're holding a gun or a stick or are ready to throw rocks, beating them down is often necessary so that they won't possibly hurt others or cause more trouble. I hated it every time I killed a criminal overseas but I'm proud that I did it for security reasons so that other innocent people wouldn't get hurt.
I may have been a ruthless manager even while working in the health insurance industries but you got to be cut throat and tough or your business loses badly. I was once sued by one of my lowers because I punished her for her goofing off all the time by cutting her pay. It's too bad I was able to prove her wrong in court and made her pay even more for false accusations. If it weren't for that stupid employee, I might have gotten married but the woman thought I was too cruel. After my fourth try at trying to find a woman who understood why it pays to be tough and rough, I thought fuck it and kept being a cut throat manager and am damn proud of it. If I had been married, my wife would have begged the hell out of me to be nice to this and that and let go of this and that but see, since I'm a tough guy, none of that can happen.
Nice guys finish last was what I learned so it pays to be tough and rough.
Ho, now I get it. You can't possibly be serious, so you must be pulling our legs. Anyone who believed what you just wrote would be such an idiot that I doubt if he could put two sentences together.
Good job, EncinoM, the jokes on us.
This guy is making this shit up as he goes along! I think he's another incarnation of Nebraska Nathan, or whatever his name is.
Sioux Rose
BLESS: I am not sure which screen name he used before, but it does seem like the "vibe" is not fresh or new in this forum. And he seems to like to create a frenzy over his own words which at times distracts from the topic of discussion.
Sioux Rose
ENCINO: I think you're Max Payne with an active imagination and a newly invented identity and screen name. If not, you two are SOUL cousins... probably will have the same work assignment in the next life, possibly as cockroaches. Hope you like left overs.
I may do work that sometimes gets abused by the higher ups in government but that does not mean I'm proud of killing people which I'm not technically doing when you look at how the process actually works. EncinoM may be proud to directly kill and harm others but that's not who I am. I understand where you and others get your anger from and all but you must learn to understand that when someone produces any technology, it is rarely meant to kill. It's those who take the technology and abuse it who are to blame. My programs will go to various customers, some military related and others non-military related. I can only write and analyze the programs. I may not like it when my work gets taken for abuse often times but I have no control over which hands it ends up in. If Greenpeace wants to take my work and put it towards constructive purposes such as saving the environment, I'll be delighted to hand it to them and more power to them. I hope that helps.
Sioux Rose
MAX: I apologize. I can't place the voice of this guy, but I know I have heard it in this forum before. In recent postings you sound intelligent and capable of considering the larger ramifications behind the egregious policies of our so-called leaders. I like your numbers on who would have voted for Nader, too. You're obviously NOT that voice. Mea culpa.