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Backlash Grows Against Obama's Preventive Detention Proposal
The backlash against President Obama's extraordinary proposal for indefinite "preventive detention" -- already widespread in the immediate aftermath of his speech -- continues to grow. On Friday, Sen. Russ Feingold sent a letter (.pdf) to Obama which, while praising some aspects of his speech, vowed to hold hearings on his detention proposal, and in the letter, Feingold rather emphatically highlighted the radical and dangerous aspects of Obama's approach:
My primary concern, however, relates to your reference to the possibility of indefinite detention without trial for certain detainees. While I appreciate your good faith desire to at least enact a statutory basis for such a regime, any system that permits the government to indefinitely detain individuals without charge or without a meaningful opportunity to have accusations against them adjudicated by an impartial arbiter violates basic American values and is likely unconstitutional.
While I recognize that your administration inherited detainees who, because of torture, other forms of coercive interrogations, or other problems related to their detention or the evidence against them, pose considerable challenges to prosecution, holding them indefinitely without trial is inconsistent with the respect for the rule of law that the rest of your speech so eloquently invoked. Indeed, such detention is a hallmark of abusive systems that we have historically criticized around the world. It is hard to imagine that our country would regard as acceptable a system in another country where an individual other than a prisoner of war is held indefinitely without charge or trial.
You have discussed this possibility only in the context of the current detainees at Guantanamo Bay, yet we must be aware of the precedent that such a system would establish. While the handling of these detainees by the Bush Administration was particularly egregious, from a legal as well as human rights perspective, these are unlikely to be the last suspected terrorists captured by the United States. Once a system of indefinite detention without trial is established, the temptation to use it in the future would be powerful. And, while your administration may resist such a temptation, future administrations may not. There is a real risk, then, of establishing policies and legal precedents that rather than ridding our country of the burden of the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, merely set the stage for future Guantanamos, whether on our shores or elsewhere, with disastrous consequences for our national security. Worse, those policies and legal precedents would be effectively enshrined as acceptable in our system of justice, having been established not by one, largely discredited administration, but by successive administrations of both parties with greatly contrasting positions on legal and constitutional issues.
Feingold's last point -- that the more Obama embraces radical Bush/Cheney polices, the more entrenched they become as bipartisan consensus -- is critically important, and extends to other policies as well, from the use of state secrets to block judicial review of executive branch lawbreaking, the concealment of evidence of government crimes, the veneration of "looking-forward political harmony" over the rule of law in cases of extreme government lawbreaking, and the denial of habeas corpus rights to individuals we abduct and transport to a war zone (such as Bagram).
On Twitter on Friday, Rachel Maddow pointed to the civil liberties questionnaire from Charlie Savage which Obama answered during the Democratic primary and asked rhetorically: "This is the same guy now proposing 'prolonged detention' without trial?" The New York Times' William Glaberson wrote that Obama's detention policy "would be a departure from the way this country sees itself"; observed that "in some countries, it is called 'administrative detention,' a designation with a slightly totalitarian ring"; and quoted the Center for Constitutional Rights' Michael Ratner as pointing out that "holding detainees domestically under a new system of preventive detention would simply 'move Guantánamo to a new location and give it a new name.'" And on Meet the Press this Sunday, the same bizarre (though entirely understandable) pattern continued to assert itself whereby the hardest-core followers of George Bush can barely contain their admiration for Obama's "counter-terrorism" policies (National Review's Rich Lowry: "it's kind of a funny debate because Obama has embraced the essentials of the Bush counterterrorism program. I think that program worked, I think it's wise of him to do that and it, it reflects some admirable kind of flexibility and pragmatism").
It's a bit difficult to claim that what Obama is proposing is nothing new, nothing out of the ordinary, given that his own White House Counsel just last February told The New Yorker's Jane Mayer that it would be "hard to imagine Barack Obama as the first President of the United States to introduce a preventive-detention law." As acknowledged by two of the leading proponents of preventive detention -- Bush OLC lawyer Jack Goldsmith and Obama's Deputy Solicitor General Neal Katyal -- the real purpose of preventive detention (contrary to what some are arguing) is not to classify and treat all detainees as "prisoners of war" (since some of them, by Obama's own description, will get trials in real courts and others in military commissions), but rather, to give "the government an overwhelming incentive to use trials only when it is certain to win convictions and long sentences, and to place the rest in whatever detention system it creates" (h/t EJ). I defy anyone to re-read that description of what this "preventive detention" system does and then claim that what is being described is a "justice system" in any meaningful sense of that term.
* * * * *
On Friday, I spoke with the ACLU's Ben Wizner about these issues and the transcript is here.
UPDATE: In this morning's New York Times, the aforementioned Charlie Savage examines Obama's choice to replace David Souter on the Supreme Court in the context of executive power, noting that while Obama has rejected some of the most extreme Bush legal theories, his embrace of many of the same policies -- denial of habeas rights at Bagram, revised military commissions, preventive detention -- places Obama on what Savage called "his own collision course with the court."
As Savage notes, Souter was a very reliable vote in favor of placing some limits on Bush's executive power assertions (which were almost invariably 5-4 decisions against Bush). Thus, replacing Souter with a justice who is more receptive to broad claims of executive power could shift the balance of the court on these questions.
Savage examines the record, which reveals that one leading candidate -- Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Diane Wood -- has some very impressive past statements that demonstrate her recognition of the need to impose real limits on executive power, including what would appear to be her opposition to Obama's just-announced plan for military commissions ("'the principle is well established that extraordinary tribunals, such as military commissions, are not authorized to operate if the normal courts are open for business,' [Wood] wrote"). By contrast, Obama's Solicitor General -- Elena Kagan -- has, as Law Professor Darren Hutchinson also documents, repeatedly endorsed broad theories of executive power of the type that would fit in nicely with Bush's OLC circa 2004.
That Obama may be motivated to seek out a Justice with much more permissive views of executive power than those to which the Bush-41-appointed Souter subscribed -- all in order to ensure that the Court approves of his "counter-terrorism" policies -- simply underscores the irony of what Obama is doing in this area.
UPDATE II: When he introduced his proposal for preventive detention during Thursday's speech, Obama said he wants to "work with Congress to develop an appropriate legal regime, that our efforts are consistent with all values and our Constitution." But as CQ reports today (h/t EJ), key members of his own party are baffled by how any such preventive detention system could ever possibly be consistent with the Constitution:
President Obama may not get a lot of help from Congress in designing the detention system he says he wants: something that can hold people who haven't committed any terrorists acts, but probably will, in a way that's consistent with the Constitution.
So far, congressional Democrats have no idea how he can do that -- which pretty much leaves him with the burden of figuring it out himself. . . .
The problem is, the congressional Democrats he'd consult on the issue don't seem to have any suggestions for Obama on how to detain potentially dangerous people without violating the Constitution.
"I don't know," said House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, who would be likely to be involved in any discussions between Obama and Congress. . . .
Democratic Rep. Jim McGovern of Massachusetts gave Obama "credit for taking the issue on in a straightforward way," but said only that "I'd be interested to see what he's proposing" on a constitutional system of preventive detention. "Maybe he's a smarter man than I," McGovern said, but "I can't think of a system that fits within the Constitution" . . . .
"That was one of the troubling moments in his speech, which was generally very strong on the rule of law," said Sarah Mendelson, director of the Human Rights and Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "Either you have committed a crime, and we're prosecuting you, or you haven't. I know there's no silver bullet, believe me, but I think he's got some mixed messages."
If incarcerating people with no charges and no trial indefinitely -- while making clear that the imprisonment will likely last decades -- isn't unconstitutional, then it's hard to imagine what would be.
UPDATE III: Law Professor Jonathan Turley on Obama's preventive detention proposal:
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25 Comments so far
Show AllBacklash is growing, so what? Obama's part of the system so what choice does he have? Not much. I may not like it that he's copying Bush even on this issue but the system is stack against him if he opposes it. Our government is controlled by the bankers and other corporate lobbyists who are hell bent on exploiting the power of preventative detention to put their employees to slave labor. Backlash against the Iraq war grew in 2002 and despite that, we still went to war and the next day a Republican poll said America approves of Bush going to war with Iraq. Most of the voters aren't paying attention or if they are, it's "security" to them. What did you expect him to be, a radical changer? Now shut up and go back and enjoy your regular programming, LOL !
Nebraska Nathan1 - "Our government is controlled by...." You left out the big one.
Obama is yet another corporate sock puppet. This scam is just another kafkaesque trial by terror to frighten the American public.
It doesn't matter who gets into office, the system is rotten to the core. That so many self-professed "liberals" have taken to "follow the leader" because they are smitten with Obama's eloquence is indicative of either a profound deficit in critical thinking, or an immense success in marketing. Or, more likely, a combination of the two. However one structures the equation, the result is the same. Change can't be won without a fight.
Obama = Bush
The New York Times' William Glaberson wrote that Obama's detention policy "would be a departure from the way this country sees itself".
But apparently not from the way Obysmal sees himself. He is now Der Fuhrer. And in the words of Edie Beale from "Grey Gardens": "They didn't expect a staunch character."
I appreciate Mr. Greenwald's writing and, specifically, this article. I do have to disagree to an extent. And, perhaps, Mr. Greenwald would agree to some degree.
I can no longer perceive this government as being a representative Republic given the last nine years of the most egregious, blatant usurping of the three distinct seperations the Constitution provides to prevent EXACTLY what has transpired, and continues to deepen its strangle hold and gutting of the psyche of the American people and its rule of law. This grievance is well documented for the last nine years. Any 12 year old can organize and show it for what it has become. In fact, thousands of lawyers in this country have it all nicely documented. Hundreds of journalists have filmed it occurring. Hundreds of books expose and document every single event since Reagan. How many legal cases, SCOTUS rulings, precedents, legal scholars and the hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, diseased and tortured does it take for this society to stand up on its feet and say "No more."
And take this country back.
Congress is culpable. The SCOTUS is culpable. The Executive is culpable. Certainly not all members of each.
The people need to understand that this is a critical moment before the collapse.
Don't throw away your summer vacation one year out of your lives. The most important year of your lives and that of your children.
Take your vacation to Washington, D.C. All summer long.
Imagine it. Live it.
Show these fools we mean business.
DogLeg May 26th, 2009 5:25 am.......From your mouth to the ears of the sleeping Americans...MAY SOMETHING WAKE THEM UP!
With Obama's blatant hypocricy and dismissal of the Constitution (not that it was really ever meant to protect the COMMON FOLK)...something is afoot. Bush and his cabal did most of the footwork and now it seems the final onslaught, via the MSM creation of this false Messiah, is finishing the job.
Rise now.....before the next false flag and the final nail is driven into We the People's coffin.
Sioux Rose
ANGRY: I see what you see. So many have fallen for the brand change that they do not see that the fascistic forces are gradually easing away not only our liberties, but replacing long-established law with their own version of new updates that would be illegal were there the necessary checks and balances working against these insidious developments. In other words, they think that with Bush gone, their fears can subside and they can go back to work (should they have work) or home (should they have homes) as if all threats have been removed from their domestic horizon. Smoke and mirrors have never been more effectively enacted!
I can agree to that but most of us who voted Obama didn't feel that Nader or Mckinney had a chance at winning and were trapped into believing that Obama was the best we could hope for in terms of getting out of Bush/Cheney. Mccain/Palin might have been worse, who knows.
Sioux Rose
MAX: I totally understand this, it's like being asked if one wants to commit suicide with the revolver or by being forced to drive off a cliff. The nation has been abducted by persons who only serve the interests of big $ at a time when health care, environmental concerns, financial viability are all at stake; and then there is the inevitable blowback of war, the karma of so much violence for far too long. And a complicit media that just goes along. The list of atrocities is long and sadly growing. The right wing may manage to turn the angst in many underpaid workers in the direction of their neighbors rather than at the targets that have caused them so much pain. And then we may see something a lot like martial law. I would not rule it out. And I have studied the astrological patterns long enough to be able to venture a guess for a higher probability of such an event, or certainly what has all the makings of an escalation in violence. There is a truth to the old adage, "As above, so below" and the stars will not be getting along (i.e. showing geometric arcs of harmony) for a number of years. There are still good days to be had, but the long-term picture is going to call for a fantastic process of rebirth. I call it the rise of the Phoenix, and first one way or another (perhaps metaphorically) must come the ashes.
Sioux Rose,
You are the third different type of expert that I have read who has come to the same type of conclusion (the planet and humans experiencing a death and rebirth process) about what will happen in the next 10 years or so.
You use your astrological expertise as your way of coming to this conclusion.
The second person, economist Ravi Batra, uses his economic expertise. In his book, 'The New Golden Age: The Coming Revolution against Political Corruption and Economic Chaos, he predicts that in the coming decade we will see the end of capitalism and be a part of a economic and political revolution. It's a great book. This guy has predicted many other major events throughout his career. I think he has only been wrong on about 3 predictions out of 20-something.
The third person is Eckhart Tolle (a spiritual teacher). In his book "A New Earth" he talked about how the egoic mind is 'destined to dissolve, and all its ossified structures, whether they be religious or other institutions, corporations, or governments, will disintegrate from within, no matter how deeply entrenched they appear to be.' He goes on and says, 'the dysfunction of the egoic human mind, recognized already more than 2,500 years ago by ancient wisdom teachers and now magnified through science and technology, is for the first time threatening the survival of the planet.' We are facing a stark choice in regards to the human race: evolve or die. Some are already aware of this and others will soon recognize this.
All three of you also noted that the process to this rebirth will be painful.
Anyway... I think it amazing that three different types of experts predict the same type of thing using three different ways to come to this conclusion. It makes me confident that we will be seeing some huge changes in the near future. Hopefully these changes eventually lead to evolving and not the human die off.
Sioux Rose
MARK: I read a book on economic cycles by Ravi Batra many years ago, and I have also read (and been inspired) by Tolle. He is a gifted writer & speaker, but most of his ideas are an amalgamation of ideas and concepts drawn from other spiritual teachers. I, too, borrow from "the greats." In addition to the three sources you note, there are also numerous prophecies from a wide array of sources, that have designated our times, the coming years, as a key phase of trial and transformation. Even a pragmatist would have to see that from the perspective of oil, a finite resource, or finance, the dangerous casino games passing for sound economic practices, the systems we live by are imploding and cannot be much longer sustained. What it comes down to is do we design new systems based on caring, cooperating, and Light, or will those who have used power so diabolically against others continue to hold status. I almost named a book (info that came through me) on the future "2020 Vision" only to find that same title had been taken by the military to define a star wars type endeavor.
I am reading a book on catastrophic climate change, what caused the massive die-out that occured in North America 13,000 years ago. The authors use a variety of tests and research devices to arrive at their conclusion that an exploding supernova outside our galaxy sent debris to earth that shook it and left scar "tissue" that altered climate in the blink of an eye. The authors also quote many Indigenous sources based on their oral traditions for clues to the past Event, and in just about every tale told the belief is that when people defy Universal Law/Creator, they incur "punishment" in the form of a massive climate cleansing. Isn't that the Bible's own testament to the great flood? Cayce said as much about the sinking of Atlantis. Given how much graft and naked corruption passes for leadership in our own land, seems the forces of nature and the cosmos must be gearing up for another cleansing. I do believe population numbers will decrease, but then given the crazies running the MIC, it seems that they are truly intent on culling populations already. Just look at the policies thus far in Iraq and now into Afghanistan. Seems there is a willful teasing of a hornet's nest as if some wish to see nuclear weapons used in that part of the world! At times like these I'm glad I believe in reincarnation and the fundamental indestructibility of the human soul. Sweet dreams.
2008 was the first time I was even open to the idea of voting 3rd party. Before that, I didn't think it was a vote worth throwing at. On the last minute Nov 1, 2008 though, I still fell for my old instincts feeling that I would be just a tiny minority voting 3rd party. I didn't expect anything from Obama when I very reluctantly pushed the button for him. With things getting worse, you can say that I'm like a scared child who is afraid to know what will happen next. I might be better successful at shaking off that old feeling by 2012 when I vote independent, Nader or whoever is in his place. I'm still guessing that if Obama keeps moving to the right, the rightwing might just let him have another term so that they can use him as a puppet and then by 2016 they'll probably find a young Reaganite. Now that I realize my fear of astrological predictions, I can see why I followed my father's and father-in-law's footsteps in acting like an Archie Bunker every time my mother, wife, or mother-in-law was into asking an astrologer to predict. I think I'll go back and get the DVD version of Mahabharata and Ramayana and see what I've been missing. Thanks.
barackstar, as you appease, or become the right, or just blatantly let us know what you really are, you begin to annoy the left. in a serious manner. so soon?
again, it has something to do with that spineless attempt at leadership. but then, what did we really expect from that boy from chicago with the skinny shoulders? not quite built to carry the load.
like the two-bit plug at the race track, you're becoming quite the laughingstock.
We put our animals out of their misery for less than this abuse. Wouldn't it be more humane in dealing with these "detainees who, because of torture, other forms of coercive interrogations, or other problems related to their detention or the evidence against them, pose considerable challenges to prosecution ..." to put them back where they came from and possibly have a bullet find them after they rejoin their compatriots in the fight against the invading dogs?
Doing this, or keeping them locked up like animals for the rest of their lives, innocent or guilty as they may have been, will result in the same outcome.
Politicians who espouse "preventive detention" should be preventively detained. This is a large step forward onto a very slippery slope. We might as well decide that since a person has already committed a crime once, and served time in prison for it, that he should be preventively detained for an indeterminate time because surely if he committed a crime once, he will do so again. We could do that for only murderers. And then rapists. And then DUI offenders. And then armed robbery. And then petty thieves. And then people caught spitting on the sidewalk. Or members of "undesirable" political parties. This schmuck is goddamned "CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR". WTF?!?!?!?
In 1933, Germany rounded up political opponents and dissidents into concentration camps under the guise of "Preventative Custody".
These people did not commit any crimes, but imprisoned without any due process, or access to lawyers, or courts to challenge their detention. Their "crime" was that they MIGHT ONE DAY COMMIT A CRIME.
As Americans, WE DO NOT WANT TO GO THERE.
It is indeed a slippery slope.
"The problem is, the congressional Democrats he'd consult on the issue don't seem to have any suggestions for Obama on how to detain potentially dangerous people without violating the Constitution."
Gee, I'm just guessing here, but could that possibly be because THERE IS NO WAY "to detain potentially dangerous people without violating the Constitution." The Constitution does not admit of the notion of "potential" criminality, still less of any trial or punishment for it.
Now, congessional Democrats, was that so hard? Really?
Rainborowe
-key members of his own party are baffled by how any such preventive detention system could ever possibly be consistent with the Constitution
Obama is way ahead of his fellow Democrats here, this morning he is anouncing his pick for the Supreme Court who will, I dare say, solve the constitutionality "problem".
"...the essentials of the Bush counterterrorism program."
Which is responsible for tens of thousands American soldier KIAs/WIAs, not to mention the millions of vengeance-seeking families and friends of the millions of dead/wounded/tortured innocent Iraqis and Afghans.
Yup, by all means, let's definitely embrace that program. It worked! (Or, is still working, that is!!!)
Feingold will be conveniently ignored as he has always been. The problem that these "torture" articles have is that they lack talking about the other side of the coin, national security. In all my years that I've read articles on "torture", I have rarely come across an article that actually draw the line between national security and simply going too far with the imprisoned. I don't like it when prisoners are unfairly interrogated but unless we can reframe the argument on seperating national security from torture, the conservatives will continue to successfully intertwine the two and win every time. The average joe blow will look at this article and say "We need our national security to torture is justified. The author thinks it's all about the prisoners only and not other people's safety." I'm not joking. We have to relate this to the average voters outside the base in a way that will resonate and so far there has been no successful way found.
-The average joe blow will look at this article and say "We need our national security to torture is justified. The author thinks it's all about the prisoners only and not other people's safety." I'm not joking. We have to relate this to the average voters outside the base in a way that will resonate and so far there has been no successful way found.
This is a very good point. Unfortunately...I am stumped. It is very basic though, isn't it? Imagine if someone believed that sacrificing goats was essential to national security, it is a question of getting down to the basic building blocks of our assumptions. Torture is counterproductive, you and I believe, now how do you explain that, step by step, to someone who has accepted that "they" need to be tortured before "they" pull another 9/11?
It is a difficult question for me, I think especially, because I don't know, and have probably never met anyone who believes committing torture is a legal/moral/smart thing to do. I'm dumbfounded now, even having to explore this question, who could have guessed? Growing up, torture was something only done in secret or in backward hell-holes or corrupt despotic faraway regimes, not something given the lofty prestigious honour of being a policy.
I wished it were as easy for them to see it crystal clear and have a heart but our American culture has taught and corrupted our children into loving violence and having fun with it. I know I used to be so into it until my mid 20s and then I reformed. This country's a bit too amoral to get it straight though maybe more economic crunches might lower the level of amorality. If our young children weren't hooked onto violence for fun, recruiting would be even tougher. Some are recruited because they really love war, some for economic reasons, and some God only knows.
Amazing how all this confusion and framing has grown out of the error of classifying 9/11 as an act of war and not a criminal act.