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Middle Class Healthcare Reform? Bend Over…
The healthcare legislation under design and so far under wraps for the American people is slowly being leaked via carefully staged forum and meetings and a few well-timed hearings and grand press announcements. Much of the work is still going on behind closed doors in private meetings attended by those who are deemed appropriate participants and industry friends.
Remember how open these proceedings were to be following all the Clinton plan debacles of the early 90s? Well, today's stagings are far more sophisticated and planned out. So learning did occur by the industry giants and their political friends over these last 17 years, I will give them that.
And what do we know so far about what middle class Americans can expect from the legislation being privately crafted?
First, no matter what percentage of your take home pay it takes, you will be legally required to buy private health insurance. Second, if all you can afford is a policy that leaves you financially exposed to bankruptcy and foreclosure, then you will still be legally required to purchase that private insurance product. Third, should you fail to buy a policy, you will pay a fine.
Like it so far? Feeling free and protected? Like the choices so far? It gets better.
The private, for-profit insurance industry has made concessions we are asked to celebrate. First, they'll issue every one of us a policy provided every one of us is legally forced to buy coverage. Second, they stop discriminating against women because they have uteruses and child-bearing capacity, provided we all have to buy their product. And third, and this was a real coup according to our leaders, the insurance companies, medical equipment folks and providers will slow the rate of increase in charging for their products to charge just a bit less in terms of percentages of overall costs than they had planned to do and as is predicted. Laughable concessions sold as real compromise.
It's as if we've been beaten a few times every month by an abuser whose violence and anger is increasing over time, and we know by calculating the trend that we'll be beaten daily within a very short time. Up steps the abuser to say, "Wait. I will still have to beat you more than I do now, but I think I can hold it to 25 times a month instead of every day." That's the sort of promises we're supposed to see as victories with the healthcare industry involvement in crafting the legislation that will determine our families' financial well-being and matters of life and death.
Let me spell this out for families like mine. You've been getting overcharged for underinsurance for many years and you've seen the costs out of your own pocket rise to the point where it is truly driving whether or not you even try to seek care when ill. You've seen premiums rise and coverage shrink in employer based coverage, and 14,000 of you a day are losing those employer based benefits in this stinking economy.
And most importantly to me and millions of other middle class folks, when you do get sick and need care, you are forced to see only those doctors and providers your insurance company says you can and those providers can only give you what the insurance company says they can give you. That's the way our insurance companies want it now and forevermore, and that's what they are going to get.
Feeling free? Your choices broadening? Your costs lowering?
Wait. There's more. In order to make sure every single American buys the private products from insurance companies and knowing some families won't make enough to afford what is offered, we'll all chip in and pay our taxes to subsidize those who cannot afford to buy the pricey plans. So, when each of us calculates our own monthly costs for healthcare, we'll need to factor in not only our own health insurance premium, our co-pays and deductibles, our medications and other out-of-pocket costs, but also the percentage of our payroll taxes dedicated to pay for the subsidies for low-income folks, the agencies to collect the fines paid by health-insurance-mandate-evaders, and the agency envisioned to be our clearing house for selling us the private product we're all forced to buy. If our real costs are added up, there will be a substantial increase for most middle class families.
These folks are really hoping you will not do the math. They think middle class folks are too dumb to figure it out.
Let me repeat. This Congress and this President are about to give us healthcare reform that will make the middle class burden for payment higher and will even more deeply restrict personal choices in medical care. And they are about to do it all with great fanfare claiming just the opposite.
No doubt many of you have feared really looking at a single payer approach as something scary and restrictive of your personal freedoms. I can promise you that nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, your freedom to choose would be greatly enhanced under a publicly funded, privately delivered national program. Greatly enhanced freedom. Lowered costs as we each pay the percentage we can afford from our income. Greatly enhanced choice of providers - no more being told who is in-network or out. No more risk of financial ruin if medical care is not approved by a profit-driven entity. And no more being told a service we already received isn't covered after all - the great bait and switch the health insurance industry is allowed to do all the time, leaving so many people with bills they never even knew they were accepting responsibility to pay.
I like being free to choose. And if this healthcare reform plan restricts my freedom, takes my hard-earned money and makes my life more difficult, I won't have any problem at all assigning blame to the folks who forced it on me.
Look, what's the old saying about excrement rolling downhill? This president is very popular. He won't get blamed when middle class folks figure out the ruse. And the Senate is pretty safe, as they get to sit for six years before answering to the people - and they get oodles of cash from the industry to make sure they are comfy, cozy. It's the U.S. House of Representatives - the people's house, they say - that will take the hit when the moms and dads of this nation figure it out that they didn't get healthcare reform at all. The middle class will get a huge burden to bail-out the health insurance and healthcare industry under the plan moving so carefully but swiftly through the process.
The kicker? When it's finally unveiled in all its bi-partisan glory, it'll be sold as a human rights victory. And on that day, 60 more American families will bury a loved one denied care. And on the day after that, 60 more will die. And the day after that, they'll be a big damn party paid for by you and by me for all of those who helped craft the monstrosity. And the insurance industry CEO salaries will be enhanced by your money paid to them. Bail-out bonanza for Karen Ignagni and America's Health Insurance Plans, an industry very fond of its government entitlements.
Costs will be successfully shifted even more heavily onto the backs of America's middle class workers. I mean, middle class chumps. And then, my fellow worker-bees, it will be mid-term election time again.




167 Comments so far
Show AllThis is part of the overall strategy of the government to destroy the ballast of Democracy, the Middle class.
Obama does not want to disrupt health care, just make it worse.
Please support the loud mouthed activists.
Maybe if you'd quit insulting others who aren't perfect like you would single payer healthcare be closer to home. Why don't YOU give up your job as a welfare facilitator and then see how many poor people take to the streets for single payer. Your spoiling them makes them lazy and inactive at some point. People aren't going to fight for single payer unless they really feel the pain. I'm a strong supporter of single payer but I too find supposed "progressives" opposed to it. That doesn't bode well, now does it?
Yes, quit being so insulting, bend over, and take it like a man. Thanks, Shawn for your excellent advice.
Shawn Berry--
Slight digression. In another thread on health care, you demanded proof that Cynthia McKinney was a semi-endorser of the Obama campaign. In case you missed my response in that thread, here is your proof:
Here is McKinney's semi-endorsement--more like a full endorsement--of Obama:
"On Saturday, June 7, 2008, Hillary Clinton announced that her 2008 presidential
bid is over, making Barack Obama the first-ever Black presidential nominee of a
major party in the history of the United States.
Congratulations to Senator Obama for achieving such a feat! . . .
Coming from Barack Obama, the word 'change' did not appear as just
another empty campaign slogan. It galvanized millions of people - mostly
young people - to register to vote and to get active in the political
system. The U.S. political system needs the energy and vision of all is
citizens participating in the political process. Citizen participation is
always the answer."
For the whole abysmal, obsequious, illusion-sowing speech (not a single sentence warning people of Obama's neoliberal tropisms or exposing his center-right record), go to the following link:
http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=node/10657
I thought Nader delivered similar speeches post election night in Novemeber 2008. The Green Party needs infrastructure and unity or they will continue to be prone to such semi-endorsements.
Nader was relentless throughout the 2008 campaign in exposing Obama's neoliberal record and predicted that he would serve corporate interests, not those of the American people.
You say that the Green Party needs "infrastructure" and "unity" to avoid those kinds of adaptations to the Democratic Party. But "infrastructure" and "unity" are merely bureaucratic buzzwords--they are devoid of political content. What the Green Party needs is political clarity about its essential purpose--it is content to languish as a kind of left appendage of the Democrats, or is it determined to forge a genuinely independent left alternative, one that makes its presence felt not only at the ballot box but also in the activist arena? So far the Green Party leadership seems disinclined to pursue a path of real political independence.
Unity, yet--but unity around clear principles that would represent a definitive break with the Democrats, not constant temporizing with them.
Nope. Not Nader. He's online, and he's consistent.
I want to thank everyone on this thread, especially beleagured Max, his situation,feelings, struggle with his conscience and rationalizations clearly exposes the mental,social and economic trap people are lead into in order to use and abuse them.
Max is breaking down, because he has a good heart and is aware of what he is doing,
one cannot exist in opposition to one's core beliefs.
This is the discussion that was to infrequent in Nazi Germany.
This is the lesson all need to learn, Throw off the cloak of Fear and Shine with the Love for All you were Born with.
In addition to making the worst healtcare system among industrialized nations even worse, Obama is criminalizing the uninsured.
Having read this article, I take it that the author is referring to the Massachussetts plan which does just that. The fundamental problem I see here is the lack of anything close to single payer healthcare in most states. Unless I am mistaken, most states have done little to nothing to provide for anything close to single payer let alone the real thing. There would have to be more states passing single payer healthcare in various formats I presume and then that could pave the way for a real fight to the finish. Otherwise mandatory-care like MA will be the only plan. A win-win for Big Insurance and Big Pharma and a lose-lose for the rest of us and even the employers themselves which I will discuss shortly.
That said, it is my strong guess that in this country and in most states, there are still too many people who are callous on the issue of health. And even after my wife and I created a bumper sticker calling for single payer healthcare, we get honked and sneered at by backwards people half the time driving on I-64 on our way to work badmouthing the plan. Once, my wife was almost bullied by a pickup truck driver who said "My guns are more important than some sissy government care !" Luckily before that mean driver was about to cause us to get into an accident, the state police pulled that redneck over and the police was on our side. He even met us in private and confessed that he loved our bumper sticker and told us about the beauty of single payer healthcare in even more details. From here we could see that apparently this electorate not only misunderstands healthcare but has been brainwashed into fighting against what could help them.
Surprisingly, even my employer is begging for single payer as our company is finding itself being eaten away by various costs, one of which is the biggest culprit, our insurance companies. Thrice my company had to switch healthcare providers to cut down costs. How many more times until the company goes bankrupt? And I'm working as a systems analyst and program manager under a defense contractor since there's no known non-defense company that specializes in IT skills. I can't imagine most companies out there doing business with these pompous health insurance fraudsters who are running them out of business with their overhead costs.
Max I suggest you do what you can and that would be to find ethical employment.
It is Karmicly proper for a war machine enabler to be bullied by a redneck.
Yes, I would do that but I have to get enough money to be able to start something better out on our own. And as I build up on better IT skills and experience in my current job, I will have what it takes to run my own non-defense business should I choose to be self-employed because there are no companies specializing in IT skills or giving good pay for it thanks to outsourcing and/or hiring VISA workers and exploiting their skills for "cheap labor". You do realize that most employment is connected directly or indirectly to the Military Industrial Complex don't you? Hell, when we pay our taxes, where do you think our money goes to aside from wars and Wall $treet? If Obama can fulfill his Green Jobs project as he plans to and I can get a decent paying job with benefits in the green sector, then I'm on. Until then, I'm just another war machine slave. As to the redneck, he had very partisan pro-Republican, pro-war, pro-Confederate flag stickers on the back of his truck. You karmic reference is very rude and offensive sir. There are things we don't like to do but our forced into it without choice. I dare ask what's your current job and how much are you making a year sir?
Max lack of courage and creativity is no excuse. People always justify their support of evil endeavors with lame excuses, like need of money and I was following orders.
If you do right you will succeed if you do wrong you will suffer.
Focusing you on the fact that one reaps what one sows is not an insult.
Being bullied by a redneck is only a mild preview of what people who support death for profit intrinsically suffer.
You may have two hands,two feet, and obviously a somewhat programmed brain use them for good or at least neutral endeavors.
I would describe my position as facilitator of the common welfare low pay but a good retirement plan.
"Max lack of courage and creativity is no excuse."
There are people who have to work for a living to pay their bills unlike some whiners. There's nothing to prove Max a coward. At least Max was honest and open about expressing himself unlike you.
"People always justify their support of evil endeavors with lame excuses, like need of money and I was following orders."
If the cost of living keeps going up and YOU refuse to do anything about it, then of course we're all going to do jobs that pay us more and help us pay our monthly expenses while you sit and shit at us just like you did to the Vietnam soldiers who came back.
"If you do right you will succeed if you do wrong you will suffer."
What is it that max did that was wrong? Working for a defense contractor is not necessarily a sin. He just does his general work and it the pols and the top military folks who use or abuse his hard work. You can't blame maxpayne for top folks abusing hard work. If he didn't program, someone else would have taken his place. Would you have preferred that he and his wife be homeless? He's not suffering because of his actions. He's suffering because of our fucking pols keeping our entire economy military controlled and maybe he has a point. I'll bet that you or someone closest to you is also working for DoD and wiping your butt for you.
"Focusing you on the fact that one reaps what one sows is not an insult."
Speak for yourself. You act more like a rightwing fascist than a progressive.
"You may have two hands,two feet, and obviously a somewhat programmed brain use them for good or at least neutral endeavors."
Do you really understand programming at all? If it weren't for programmers, neither you nor I would be typing here. You might try opening up your narrow intolerant mind to R-E-A-S-O-N-I-N-G and try helping others out instead of insulting them with your fascist bullshit.
"I would describe my position as facilitator of the common welfare low pay but a good retirement plan."
Didn't you just say that people invent lame excuses for their evil endeavors? I don't see you being any less hypocritical. Most people don't have the kind of good retirement plans you have. You sound more like an arrogant public employee no different from the rightwing assholes laughing at others doing all the hard work out there. And not everyone can work as a welfare facilitator.
Simply put there is never a good excuse for doing the wrong thing. (Think Torture or working in the War Industry).
Shame on you for suggesting Max is a coward. How would you know? Your lack of civility here and rudeness reflects on you, not Max who works to make a living.
Thanks Thomas. I don't know what's with these people. I knew I'd get a slip here just admitting my job but I just wanted to illustrate and explain why a lot of us do what we do and perhaps shed some light and connections to the matter. Ever since I was a kid I loved working with computers and even got into programming. IT jobs have always been hard to come by and outside DoD, forget it unless you can put up with unstable and insecure temporary jobs that are usually 3 weeks to 3 months with no benefits whatsoever, just hourly wages. I knew I couldn't afford this if I had to get married and not worry my wife. I wanted to fight for a more secure job that was more in tune with my programming interests. The longer I worked in DoD, the more soldiers I met in the army, navy, and marines and the more I understood what they also went through. We are all trying to survive this dog-eat-dog madness and some people just don't appreciate it. I don't know about Dallas but out here in the VA Beach/Norfolk area of VA, the costs of living are going up although it's not as bad as Northern Virginia. If we don't get decent pay, paying our monthly mortgage bills, cable, telephone, and other bills is not going to be easy and in no time we'll be evicted and homeless. My wife who works in the real estate realm will tell you the same thing but she'll also tell you that most IT workers working under real estate businesses often don't stay longer than 6 months. Just a few months ago, my wife lost her job because her company went belly up. I can only thank God that I was still employed and even went through some trouble to help her find her next job even I ended up having to work late hours to make up for some time taken off because I wanted to save my paid vacation time for another occasion. I did get sick eventually and while I was driving my mind completely blacked out and I got into a serious car wreck off the highway. I was lucky to live and my employer's insurance company covered for most of my treatment but I know the horror hell it would have been had I not been insured. If I hadn't been able to pay because I was earning low pay like most others, I probably would have died and put my wife in total grief and then she'd probably wished I hadn't gone through the trouble of helping her find a job. This is no doubt what is bound to happen when one's not covered and there's no single payer healthcare to help us all. People can say that I'm a sinner for working for the DoD but as Shawn Berry pointed out, I do my work but it's what the top bosses do that makes or breaks it all. Anyone who has served in the military will most likely understand what I'm trying to say.
It's not right to criticize people for trying to survive in a war economy or tell them to go find some minimum wage job so they can feel righteous. The fault is in the system.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
"It's not right to criticize people for trying to survive in a war economy or tell them to go find some minimum wage job so they can feel righteous. The fault is in the system."
Bingo ! A min wage job couldn't even help me pay half the costs of general apt rental costs and other monthly bills let alone anything else. The fault is indeed the system. To tell you the truth, I'd be happy as hell to make enough money, keep my frugality as much as possible, and when I think I've got enough to quit and start my own business and bring on local growth, I'll be ready to make a dash for it. You'd be surprised as to how many soldiers and DoD workers wish like that.
max, the bankers spread delusions that we need their loans to start businesses. We don't. You can be one of the guys to prove it. We don't need anything from elites. They are the parasites. We are the hosts.
I already understand what bankers and elites do and am well aware of it. It's easy for you to say that we don't need anything from the elites but I still doubt that you can completely confirm that. Money comes from working and there are cases where we need better pay and finding the sources isn't as easy as you claim. If all you want to do is have sadistic pleasure at pulling everyone down to poverty status, then you're not helping your progressive cause. True progressives and liberals would never resort to povertizing hardworking people.
Considering that well-being is maximized in the range between 1x and 2x poverty level, then yes the great majority should probably be there. If you built some magic instrument that told you how much of your economic gain is via exploiting others, and how much from your own productivity, most would probably cut the exploitation assuming everyone else did too. Seems the public policy should promote this, maybe enforce it.
Max, - there are usually a fair number of IT jobs outside of the war-related industries. But, today's job market is quite poor, of course, so not right now. It is difficult to find a job that isn't morally tainted if you look closely enough. Financial industry? Pharma? Chemical industry? Agribusiness? Oil? Coal? Stictly speaking, don't we contribute to harm if we work for any of them? I suppose we have to take our choices and hold our nose at times .. in practicality. It is really a matter of conscience.
Thanks Shawn for trying to understand and clear things up. The truth is we're all in this mess together whether any of us like it or not. Working in DoD, I actually got to learn what being a soldier was all about. And contrary to what some on the far right and left would say, SOLDIERS HAVE FEELINGS TOO.
I can't believe the stuff you write, Max. You sound way delusional. You actually say that you know what being a soldier is all about because you tinker with technolgy?!!
Noone here has suggested soldiers don't have feelings. . . Max, are you keeping up with your dosages? Because someone sounds off his meds.
I would describe your position as one dependent on grants and taxes paid by people like Max. Healthcare is an issue, like many, that would expand the liberal cause, yet activists always find a divide and conquer angle to prevent that from happening. Funny how that always happens.
You're not alone. A lot of us do things that we just gotta do and we may not like it. I may drive an SUV but my job depends on it because I carry a lot of heavy stuff from office to office and to and from my customers. However, I'm going to be called a "gas guzzler" freak by some extremists on this site just like they're calling you an accomplice to the war machine. Tell these same extremists to lower the prices on prius hybrids or call for switching to switchgrass ethanol from corn ethanol and they'll call me a Republican and act so childish and immature. I also find glenn ford's karmic reference very disturbing. He sounds no different from a typical rightwinger saying "well you deserve it, hah !".
Sanctimony knows no party. I dont'get bent about poor people shopping at Wal Mart, either. They have a right to self defense that supercedes passing the universal purity test. You do what you can when you can. I work for a credit rating bureau, for example, and I keep my complicity minimal (low wage drone work; no more than that).
My favorite days are when I can take my employers money and spend it on a Counterpunch subscription or something, or donate to the ISO.
Compassion should never be in short supply on the left, except for the few truly deserving masters that run this crap. Focus you ire there, where it belongs.
Contributing your skills to killing vast numbers of innocents is somewhat worse than shopping at Wal Mart, if anything is worse than anything else.
Is there no personal responsibility? I have no ire for Max, I wish him well. And I hope he can use my insights to eradicate himself from his state issued box.
The top is always dependent on the support of the bottom.
Very well said. Even Ralph Nader had to get money from his enemies just to donate to worthy causes and I applaud him for his efforts. The truth is a lot of us are trying to do just the same but since we're too small in clout, we are to be demonized. Thank you for compassion and understanding and good luck out there.
Glen Ford may be insufferable, but he's also right. He just has to learn a few manners and develop a little compassion. The enemy is health insurance and pharmaceuticals. Lets stop bitch slapping each other and focus on the real enemy.
Thank you George Markley! We've got the right, center and left beating up on progressives. It's insane. To listen to us, one would think our positions are further apart from each other than they are from the right wing. And I always approve of good manners.
Glen. I appreciate your ideas, but sometimes you could refrain from attacking the person instead of their ideas. On the second part you do a great job.
Kathy
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
The Warlords of the world have always depended on people who are willing to assume unethical roles for certain rewards to further the Warlords agenda's, such as imperial wars.
Max and 100,000's of thousands like him have agreed to be cogs in the War Machine for a wage.
If all these people had the courage to ignore their insecurities and fear of the future and put their energies into Right Livelyhood we would not be a nation of unnecessary endless Warfare.
This is true for the Max's, Congress and Obama.
Is not much of life about having the courage to make the seemingly more difficult ethical over the seemingly more secure unethical choice?
Dispensing of your personal responsibility for your actions is the basis of atrocities.
Lacking courage at the moment to do something does not make one a coward, it means you only lack the courage to make that specific ethical decision( in Max's case he explains this himself and also that he has not found the creativity to think outside the box).
It is one of the worst parts of USA culture that people are willing to relinquish their ethics in trade for what they perceive as economic security.
This is found in the War for Profit industry, the Financial industry and Healthcare.
Only when the Max's of the world find the courage and creativity to do the right thing in the here and now, will the Cheney's and McChyrstals of the world be disabled.
It is very scary to learn of how many people find abdication of personal responsibilty and supporting the War Machine to be acceptable
I have compassion for Max thats why I am telling him to summons his courage and creativity and remove himself from a situation in which he is amassing a huge amount of Karmic debt.
And only by one citizen at a time refusing to be unethical will the USA be relieved of it crushing Karmic burden.
So working to make a living, collect money, and then make the move is not courage, eh? I should just be a low paid worker getting paltry wages and live in a shack and disappoint my wife and my family, eh? I'm sorry but there's a limit to all this. Maybe I have to work in the oddest of locations to get somewhere in life while you're damn lucky. But you listen here. I'm not gonna be anyone's fall guy, get it?
Sioux Rose
GLENN: I agree with your post & points. Too many people rationalize their own comfort in exchange for doing the bidding of the MIC. Perhaps if persons realized this Faustian bargain 3 decades ago, the beast would not be so heavily infiltrated as a driving economic force in just about every U.S. state's economy. So the argument to retain this monster, this thing that has a legacy of over a million RECENT kills on its karmic spreadsheet, becomes the catch 22 of maintaining jobs. BAD BAD recipe...
I would rather live in a mobile home park (which I do) then earn the capital to live in a $250,000 home by selling my soul to this dark force in exchange for my family's comfort. Don't you think that same excuse is used by all those who plan for war, those who just stole the nation's treasure dressed up as bankers? Even the Mafia says "it's all for the family." And this Cancer (July 4) nation has used the ruse of "homeland security," an expansion upon this theme of "my family's personal security" to wreak absolute HAVOC all over the globe. It's a watered down version of the German soldiers defense that they were only following orders.
The Buddhists are very clear about this "right living" concept. I'd rather do a task unpaid if I had any doubt about the karmic implications of said task. This is a question one must grow to ask, before putting their SUV and personal comfort ahead of whomever that IT research is designed to bomb next.
Whoa. Back up a minute. I do my IT work but I'm not the one responsible for the damage. It's the upper folks who are responsible for what they do to my work. If I don't work my brains off to provide even a shred of comfort to my wife and family, how the hell do I expect them to take me seriously? Shawn may drive an SUV because his job depends on his carrying all that cargo to and from work while I may be an IT worker because I love computers and programming and I have to work hard and earn to keep up in this dog-eat-dog hell world just like soldiers do. I've met plenty of soldiers in the navy, marines, and the army and like us DoD workers, they too have feelings. Did you ever watch the Rambo movie series? If so, you would have realized how soldiers are not only disrespected on the battle front but are treated like shit here at home. If you saw the final scene in Rambo: First Blood where the former soldier finally shows his sadness and explains why he's been what he's been, perhaps you'd understand the hard feelings we workers and soldiers have to put up with when we're shitted upon by our own dumb fools who should be pounding the pols for abusing our hard work and service. If you weren't getting paid, then how would you expect to be posting here? Thanks a lot for laughing at me ! And then you wonder why soldiers are mad at us progressives ! I get a bad feeling that people like you and Glenn are trying to make us soldiers and hardworking people feel self-guilty despite the fact that it ain't our fault that we're in this mess but the damn pols who get to sit and misuse our hard work and service, push our buttons, and have fun partying around and even laughing at us all because they know that you'll just shit on us and keep hurting our feelings !!
Sioux Rose
Maximum pain: It'll be between you and your Creator. I don't buy your rationale nor support your ethos, but it's your karma.
Karma my ass ! I work hard in tough fields because I like programming and helping to build technological infrastructure even as people like you ABUSE it for shitting on us like that. You think you can still have the luxury of posting on this site without us hardworkers doing your dirty shit work ? What do you know about hard work anyway and what do you know about what our soldiers go through? You think you can blame us hard workers and soldiers while at the same time allowing the out of touch motherfuckers in Washington to have unlimited field days with us? Who pays for your internet bills anyway? You can't possibly be on the internet posting if you don't have the money to pay for your internet access and this kind of insulting. We're in a fucking war economy and we gotta do what we gotta do. I didn't ask to work in a defense contracting company. The fucking system made me do it. You got some well paying jobs that aren't DoD related and can be just as helpful in helping us cope up with the rising costs of living? Then shoot them out. But I'm sick and tired of luddite bullshit and disrespect to us hard working people and our honorable soldiers who are being put through these dirty jobs when it ain't their fault. Just like I told glenn ford, I'm gonna tell you this so listen straight. I ain't gonna be anyone's fall guy, get it?
For all that smart alik talk of yours, why don't you name some companies that give good IT jobs such as what you claim to work for and let me see if I missed any of them in my area? Otherwise, I don't appreciate that kind of rude talk from you. If you want to tell me to give up my job, then you should give up yours first. I know what's going on and have been through it all. Maybe you were lucky by fluke but most of us are not. Just exactly what do you do for IT anyway?
There aren't enough jobs to re-patriate all of DEFENZ. The "offshoring" of industrial production is yet another in the mountain of catastrophes perpetrated by the elites on the USan people. You, yohocoma, can join the movement to re-build US industry, by convincing your peers to shift their market demands to support local scale production by guys like max, and you and me, that truly serves the better interests of the society. Convince people to buy soap from their neighbors instead of from Procter & Gamble, etc, etc, and always explain why.
Thank you rtdrury. Now that's what I call the road to getting us off the war machine. I do believe we really need a local manufacturing base in every local precinct and feel guilty for all the foreign imports we keep purchasing.
"As you can see, max eagerly jumped on your comment to further validate his, and now your, rationalizing. According to you, now we have to first solve the problem of offshored US industry, before we can have expectations of mil-tech workers like max to give up their violence-based jobs. That mountain of catastrophes you talk about also serves, if you want it to, as a mountain of interlocked excuses to delay acting morally."
Translation, keep offshoring jobs to cheap overseas labor and keep putting the working class in a lose-lose situation and force them into "unethical" jobs and then show contempt for them. And you call this "progressive" ?
"Max and his family can survive and still even thrive in the US, and he can work in the IT field, without his "defense" job. It may require a difficult job search, as millions are now engaged in. It may require relocation. Whatever - it can be done, because we're not even talking about heroic sacrifice here. It's just refusing to apply one's efforts and talents to one of the big, hideous machines of our country."
Again, as yohocoma conveniently omits, the IT job shedding and outsourcing/insourcing has been ongoing but he/she would much rather invent more rightwing bullshit. People can't always move just like that and we all know that the IT sector and in fact most every job sector has been privatized. Most jobs are tied to the MIC. In fact, when you pay your taxes, you're giving money to the MIC like it or not. When you get laid off, I know that you'll be desperately looking for another IT job that's not tied to defense and then when you give up, you'll surrender to one unless you just so happen to be filthy rich or your parents are ready to bail you out or whatever. I thought progressives did not show the kind of contempt on the working class that you're showing. Go right ahead and keep sneering away. You can't handle the truth.
"Basic, basic morality. Don't contribute to the misery makers oppressing the rest of us. Don't do stupid, unethical things for short-term comfort while deluding yourself that you don't have reasonable choices."
Funny that I'm hearing all this preaching from a supposed progressive. You can preach all you want but you might want to consider listening to some advice rtdury gave you because with your arrogrant elitist attitude, you're only enabling the war machine and are no less guilty of it.
Sioux Rose
YOHOCOMA: Thank you for bringing reasoning to this debate. Some only want to hear what they want to hear and miss everything else. I appreciate your integrity.
Max, you come across as kinda delusional. You seem to conflate your IT work with actually being a soldier.
And, gee, Max, for a tough guy you seem completely incapable of owning your own power. Look at what you read. You come right out and say you didn't ask to work in a defense contracting company: what, did someone come to your house in the dead of night and drag you out to apply for your job? You applied for the job. You choose to work for the dark side and in doing so, you perpetuate the darkside.
So long as putatively good men do nothing to resist, so long as putatively 'good' men submit to the fucking war economy and do what they gotta to . . .geez, max, grow some balls.
I am sorry that you are a victim of the war complex. . . but you victimize yourself.
as far as the honorable soldier being put to dirty jobs. . . they all signed up for it, right? There is no draft, right?
People could decide today to stand up to the military complex and everyone could refuse to work tomorrow. . . and guess what? everyone would survive and be all right.
Capitalism and the war complex counts on fearful bullies like you max, people who think that strutting around town in their nice car -- or whatever you think you have to buy with the fruits of your war job -- . . you are victims, part of the problem.
I have news for you, Max. You are a fall guy. You are an immoral dickhead chump who deludes himself. Own your power. Man up. Stop the power hanging over you and live free.
It is possible to live on very low income and be happy. People that do it have discovered that BEING is just about free and guess what? Nobody really needs much stuff beyond very minimal basic needs. You want toys that you won't give up Max. Own up to your childish gimmees. You want so you justify collaborating with the dark force.
My goodness!! This is a powerful dialogue between Glenn Ford and Max.
I find myself agreeing with both. But, in the end what Glenn Ford writes about is 100% correct - as difficult as it might be for some to accept. Glenn Ford gets right to the CRUX of the problem and a possible solution. And, Max, please don't think I don't understand your position and concern about your survival and wellbeing... I do! I wasn't in an exact position like yours, but I did work in an industry that was not jiving with my soul - really, it was killing me internally- but I stayed because of the economic security. THANKFULLY, I finally quit and sold all of the crap I didn't really need, paid off my debts, and moved to the mountains.
Now, I live simply. I live comfortably off of earning only $15,000 a year. I travel. I take months off at a time. I work to live. If I can't afford something... I DON'T BUY IT! I don't own a house - and I am glad because realistically I wouldn't ever actually "OWN" it -- unless I stuck with paying the payments for 30 friggin years. My next step is going to be withholding my taxes from the federal gov't because I hate that they are using my money to kill, steal and bail-out their corporate buddies - although this is the one thing I am still scared to do.
In short... I was TERRIFIED about my decision to get away from the thing I hated to do just because it was economically secure and safe. Looking back I can say that it was THE BEST DECISION I HAVE EVER MADE!! I have re-claimed my life and my happiness by saying FUCK THE SYSTEM and doing it the way I want to do it.
Glenn Ford says.... "Lacking courage at the moment to do something does not make one a coward, it means you only lack the courage to make that specific ethical decision( in Max's case he explains this himself and also that he has not found the creativity to think outside the box).
It is one of the worst parts of USA culture that people are willing to relinquish their ethics in trade for what they perceive as economic security."
----THAT is a powerful and truthful statement!!!
I would suggest ratcheting up the non-DoD sectors and pushing for single payer so that more of us can have well paying jobs and benefits without DoD and the costs of living can also go down so that we don't have to ask for more money. I strongly agree that our real enemies are the health and insurance industries and that's why I thought that I for one would make it known that our war economy is completely connected to them.
As Max shows, even IT workers are affected by the lack of health care. Even defense contractors, who received massive amounts of taxes, are struggling with this cost. Employers, companies of all stripes and sizes, are paying to support the insurance industry, a group who deserves investigation more than an increase in government subsidy.
Thank you Pitch Fork. Even we soldiers and DoD contractors can have a heart too. Yep, it's a hell of a lot of work but I have no intention of letting the costs bury myself and my wife into deep debts and possible bankruptcies and evictions. Sometimes, we have to use our enemies' weapons to win but in the end, I hope to make a peaceful getaway and possibly build a better IT business of my own and then grow it so that we can encourage more people to enjoy working in IT without all the defense crap. I know I can't do it alone but a lot of us have similar visions when working in DoD.
Screwed again by the great Messiah!
Messiah ??? I know Obama's screwed up but he's only human like the rest of us. And I thought that only rightwingers call him those kinds of names !