Try and sentence all who committed crimes of war, as commonally understood. That would include members of Congress. Give all the same sentences that have been handed out by America to others in other lands for the same degree of involvement. The only way that justice will occur is if those who have been wronged by America came into the postion of power to impose equal justice.

A useful excerise would be to list all American torturers, beginning with Bush and going on down to Lynndie England, give a summary of their crimes and opposite them name someone convicted by America or one of our vassal states and the sentence that they received for a comparable crime.

Why are we just fixated on the idea torture, when it's all just a part of the imperialist sham that has been The War On Terror? If the War on Terror (Freedom?) ends, everything that comes with it, including torture, end also. If we only focus on torture, it makes it seem as if this War is otherwise just. It's like scolding a bully for "fighting dirty" or shaking a finger at a mugger for using a weapon. War in general is dirty. It's never going to be a gentlemanly game of cricket. It's evil, it needs to end, and those who start wars and benefit from them need to be tried, convicted, and permanently removed from society.

The elites didn't commit it in my name. I didn't vote for these people. I did not put them in power, and they have done nothing for me let alone most other Americans. The very people waging war on the Muslim world are waging war on the majority of the American people also. What good will it do to have average Americans wallowing in guilt? They're victims too in all of this. You're letting the elites off the hook by acting as if the people they've been victimizing since this nation's inception are now complicit in their crimes.

Did the people allow 9/11 to occur? Did they decide to go to war on false pretenses?
We now have a pro-capitalist MOR president. Are the people then undeserving of universal single-payer healthcare? Do they deserve to continue to lose their jobs while corporations are rescued? Do they deserve to continue to be displaced, to hunger, to thirst? When you blame the American people for The War on Terror and the torture that accompanies it, you also blame the American people for their own disenfranchisement.

"Women, and 1 out of 47 men, are kinder souls, more patient, not inclined to jealousy, pride or bragging, not selfish or easily angered. Not content with wrong but seeking truth. Patiently accepting, always trusting, in hope, always strong."

Sure, let's put women on a pedestal. You must not know very many of them. Oh yeah, women are NEVER jealous, arrogant, selfish, impatient, weak, or hot-tempered.

I've read this through at least three times, Naomi, and I am still trying to figure out exactly what the American people could have done to stop the ruling Junta from doing whatever they pleased. Is this frustration or guilt caused by the fact that no number of exposes, in book, blog or article form, could cause enough shame to stop the madness? You, Thom Hartmann, Al Franken, etc., etc., did the world the service of documenting the abomination. But to say the American people are COMPLICIT in these crimes is like saying the passengers on the 9/11 jets were complicit in the disaster that followed. Our nation was hijacked in an administrative coup in 2000.

I do not feel guilty. I feel betrayed, and I feel enraged when articles like this fog the issue by dispersing blame across a vast population that cannot ever be held accountable. This turns righteous indignation into impotent handwringing, which is what we are seeing in our Democratic "leadership."

No, to blame the American people for the deliberate, calculated crimes of a few sociopaths and the silence of their enablers and their handlers who had the power, but lacked the will, to stop them, is just wrong. I am more than happy to be held accountable for the consequences of my actions. But Dick Cheney did this, and Dick Cheney should pay the penalty defined in our laws for treason, conspiracy, torture and murder. And then we can go to the next name on the list, until we get to that most profound disappointment of the 21st century, Nancy Pelosi, who was the first apologist to "take prosecution off the table."

120,000 young american pilots died over Germany to take Prosecutor Jackson to Nuremberg (I'm not counting the 90,OOO britons here) and this is just one aspect of the titanic effort of 70 allied armies on the march with their innumerable dead...Do we have no debt of gratitude and sense of duty to their memory? Have we sunk so far that we can no longer stand up against such heinous abuse of power by cowards and feudal profiteers? (What is the status of an 'enemy combatant', if not that of a truant slave...?)...

Shame on America! Shame on Obama! if you do not have the courage of the heritage you are ever ready to tout!

The world is watching (and many of your enemies hope you no longer have that strength!)

She's right folks--and I hate to say it, but "we" have been watching America's Next Top Model and American Idol instead of raising hell when that is exactly what we knew we should be doing.

Just conducted a random check of comments with respect to US national media's responsibility for letting the torture issue be swept under the rug. Now they are all over it. Will the MSM stay the course? Doubtful.

Nanoo

Many very good comments here. I for one doesn't believe We includes me on a personal level. As a Nation however, We will all suffer from the blowback. As Bush bragged he's keeping us safe, in our police state.

Fuck, I wish this country would break up.

The title of this article says it all. Whether we support something outright, or in ignorance, the result is the same. Even if we support the overall edifice that leads to many injustices. That is why 'seeing' and awareness is everything.

It is BECAUSE torture was done in our name, that we want justice in our name.

Our country went astray, and only accountability will reign in our public servants, and deter future abominations.

Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex

First: this predated Bush, by many years. Long before 24 and the other tough guy heroics of post 9/11 tv fiction, the "heroes" were beating up suspects to get confessions, prisons were designed to abuse and rape as part of the punishment, vigilante lawmen were presented as heroic when they took justice in their own hands and dealt out justice. "Just" murder, revenge, torture, they have been popular tropes in pulp fiction for decades. Just watch Gunsmoke. It's the same amoral celebration of might as right when it is "our" might and kills "the bad guys". The huge popularity of capital punishment is a clear indication of how much support the torture lobby knew they could count on. Secondly - the Nuremberg trials made it perfectly clear. We are all responsible for our actions. Blindly following orders is not enough. Punishing the commanders alone won't do. Because it won't prevent further outrages. Grassroots opposition to savagery is what is needed - decent, conscientious, morally responsible *ordinary* people committed to the divine duty to disobey when the orders are cruel and criminal. Being a common, ordinary person is no defence in other crimes - it should not be a defence here. Bad orders must not be obeyed.

When deciding guilt for crimes against humanity, it is not just that the White House council gave wrong council, but that they intentionally colluded with the Bush administration to by design give wrong council as a political expedient to serve the desired end.

Again, all people are not guilty, only those in the Bush administration or colluding with the Bush administration to, by design, give wrong council as a politically expedient tool to serve the desired end, and the desired end is what happened, the DLC is pretty proud of what has been done.

Maybe you, Naomi Wolf, have blood on your hands, but this liberal Democrat has NO BLOOD ON MY HANDS what so ever, and neither does any member of my family have any blood on their hands. We were against Bush being appointed. If Al Gore had realized what a terrible bunch was coming into power he would have fought harder for his rights and never gave up, but how could he have known they would have been such murderers. My family and I have all been against the destruction of the environment, the destruction of the family, the police state, the War on Afghanistan, the War on Iraq and all the lying, stealing and torture of the Bush administration since the beginning and have been doing our best to let people know that our country is going in the wrong direction ever since. The whole 9/11 murderous charade was set up by right-wing Republicans and the Democratic Party's right-wing DLC New Democrat moderates/conservatives of our own government to give the public at large a legitimate reason not to be concerned when the new administration extremists started their private mercenary wars for their private profit in Afghanistan and Iraq for the purpose of conquering these nations as well as using up all the money in our nation that supported the public, so that the elite capitalists would be able to sink the infra-structure of the common population of the United States in a bath tub, and the same with other nations of the world, so that the United States and other nations of the world's populations would only have two classes and cultures, the haves and the have nots. It is a DLC NEW DEMOCRAT/Republican War Plan, the Project For the New American Century (PNAC). Neo means NEW. Phil Gram touched off the mortgage and bank fiasco and 9/11 started the wars. Cover up has been relatively simple, since there are so many Democrats in the plan. I hope to God some day each and every one of the members of their evil plan of destruction get what they justly deserve, but apparently Obama thinks justice will be too much trouble. I hope he changes his mind, because without justice, they will have gotten away with what they have done and will be inclined to do worse, like any other criminals.

Maybe you, Naomi Wolf, have blood on your hands, but this liberal Democrat has NO BLOOD ON MY HANDS what so ever, and neither does any member of my family have any blood on their hands. We were against Bush being appointed. If Al Gore had realized what a terrible bunch was coming into power he would have fought harder for his rights and never gave up, but how could he have known they would have been such murderers. My family and I have all been against the destruction of the environment, the destruction of the family, the police state, the War on Afghanistan, the War on Iraq and all the lying, stealing and torture of the Bush administration since the beginning and have been doing our best to let people know that our country is going in the wrong direction ever since. The whole 9/11 murderous charade was set up by right-wing Republicans and the Democratic Party's right-wing DLC New Democrat moderates/conservatives of our own government to give the public at large a legitimate reason not to be concerned when the new administration extremists started their private mercenary wars for their private profit in Afghanistan and Iraq for the purpose of conquering these nations as well as using up all the money in our nation that supported the public, so that the elite capitalists would be able to sink the infra-structure of the common population of the United States in a bath tub, and the same with other nations of the world, so that the United States and other nations of the world's populations would only have two classes and cultures, the haves and the have nots. It is a DLC NEW DEMOCRAT/Republican War Plan, the Project For the New American Century (PNAC). Neo means NEW. Phil Gram touched off the mortgage and bank fiasco and 9/11 started the wars. Cover up has been relatively simple, since there are so many Democrats in the plan. I hope to God some day each and every one of the members of their evil plan of destruction get what they justly deserve, but apparently Obama thinks justice will be too much trouble. I hope he changes his mind, because without justice, they will have gotten away with what they have done and will be inclined to do worse, like any other criminals.

Well said truenorth I was thinking the same among other things.

manning give me a break with your

'A sharp distinction must be drawn between interrogations intended to result in criminal prosecution or punishment for crime and interrogations intended to prevent imminent loss of life and property. Most nations, including the U.S., have a black-letter prohibition against the former. I believe it's yet unclear whether a similar ban applies to the second type of interrogation.'

Should we not pay attention to distinguishing between the noun 'interrogation' and the verb 'to interrogate'. Why not simply put 'tortures' in where you have 'interrogations' in the above? And it is as plain as the nose on anyone's face that not only is it 'clear' but its patently unambiguously clear, with no exceptions whatsoever and in plain, simple language. There are no exceptional circumstances where torture is permissible. And unlike the tragic case of a Brazilian student named Mendez, shot dead by a British anti-terrorist unit on a London tube, a policy of repetitive torture can hardly be an cast aside by the authorities in a similar manner as single aberration or an accidental mistake.

Who believes in criminal law being prosecuted against criminals? The authorities in the USA seem to lock a lot of its population up and to lock a lot of foreigners up too. It still does. Obama is well on the way to doing so in Afghanistan with his NATO allies. And I'd suspect he doesn't want his hands tied either too. Recollect, felons who weren't felons, or other felons who had redeemed their full civil rights were struck off the voting registers at the behest of a party run by unredeemed felons.

Israel instituted torture into its legal system as acceptable for a period. Both Parties in Congress vote so overwhelmingly in favour of this State that should really disturb those who are calling for criminal prosecutions of torturers. Whe Chomsky and others talk about world consensus not understanding how the USA has consistently vetoed UN resolutions against the practices of its ally there does it not seem amazing that US citizens don't pay more internal attention to this remarkable fact. And this in unbridled support of criminal activities as reprehensible and longer standing than those since 2003 on torture policies by the Bush Administration. Where are the voices of American citizens in this regard? Don't they see the obvious connection? You are allied to the extent that both countries in many ways are indistinguishable and what do you expect?

The Attorney General of the USA is obligated to prosecute now! The evidence was unmistakable with that Cheshire cat grin of Cheney on a television interview. I'll never forget that slimy grin while bragging about torture, ever. Like Bush on his knees putting on the role of a mother who had come to plead for her son's life on a death sentence when he was governor of Texas. Anyone else see that? Unbelievable! And so came another cowboy in the great communicators train. He showed little compassion then for the felon about to be burned on death row. He actually laughed, miming the pathetic pleas of a mother who had met her match in the hard line governor who believed the soon to be dispatched son had been tried by his peers and that, that was that! Another time the Pope among many foreign dignitaries pleaded the case of a mentally retarded man, with the same result for the unfortunate man in the end.

Generations of Americans in the USA have been indoctrinated with propaganda distilled through the MSM. The same happens in other countries both about the USA and their own areas. But the image is different from the reality and the countries of Central America and South America have their own images and realities. Naomi in her article has her own ideas of what needs to be done but it is not at all enough. The weapon is the Law of the Land under the Constitution of the USA. No matter how deep or far the web must be spun all those who conducted such policies whether among allies or among the militaries and private contractors, the CIA or in the Congress should be exposed and punished. On top of that the USA should abolish the death penalty and empty its prisons of non-violent offenders and replace them with those found guilty. Plea bargaining is fine as long as it is understood that those escaping jail time are not a danger to society or themselves. Hospitalisation will also be required to treat the sick and damaged and rehabilitation courses should be initiated to try and cure damaged abusers.

Those torture photos and the exposure and contents of subsequent memos didn't surprise me in the least. Nobody should kid themselves that these despicable crimes are still par for the course in the many countries. But it would create an almighty storm in many other democracies among citizens were it so evidently exposed. I am certain there would be strong repudiation an it would be unthinkable that should the USA lead onwards towards justice for its victims that other elites are not deeply concerned about their own hides too. So, there is a lot at stake. Others are watching closely and though media is largely corporate controlled it has its differences from the North American version.
Renditions brought this to the fore in Europe and the more exposure from the US the better to hold leaderships in Europe to account for complicity and high crimes.

I think Ms Wolf gets it right when she says that "only people who should be prosecuted are, as at Nuremberg, those who directed otherwise honorable men and women to commit crimes - the lawyers, and those who are on record as having given the orders: Rice, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush himself." Ms Wolf advocates General James Cullen's solution, the former military prosecutor who has been at the forefront of calling for accountability - "who urges us to indemnify those lower down the chain of command to get their testimonies, so they implicate the ringleaders." From a practical perspective, this may be the best way to get at the bastards who implemented the atrocious policies.

As a veteran of the US Military, I can say from direct experience that it takes phenomenal internal fortitude to refuse an order when you think it may illegal or immoral--but to refuse is also a part of the duty of a military person and we are thoroughly trained to understand that. It is what should keep the military and the political class clean.

In my opinion, the "all volunteer" service, while technologically an improvement in certain respects to the drafted military, has done much to lead to weaken the moral underpinnings of the US Military. But that's an issue for another discussion.

Where Ms Wolf is "exactly on the mark" is when she says, "Lay the guilt where it belongs: on Congress; most particularly, and legally, on the leadership that directed this policy; and, emotionally and morally, on our complicit American selves."

I find it both astonishing and revealing that Hillary Clinton sailed through the nomination process for Secretary of State without even one objection--especially after her vote for and her defense of Bush's war.

Collectively (we're still drinking Kool-Aid) and we are drunk on the fallacy that we are the most important people on the planet. But the plain truth is this: We're still "endentured servants" and "slaves" on Ole Massa's plantation--totally impotent.

Until we DUMP the entrenched political class and come up with a clean set of election rules, implement real campaign finance reform, we'll continue to be an insipid people. We are not the like the Revolutionary Generation. Why, because we're all distracted by the latest "Blue Light Special!" Ms Wolf got it right in her book, THE END OF AMERICA. We are already well on our way to fascism. The Revolutionary Generation gave us the intellectual foundation. We need to become revolutionaries--the problem is we have not the collective will. I'm not as optimistic as Ms Wolf. I think we're finished--have been finished for some time.

"The people are not innocent."
-Lincoln Steffens, "The Shame of the Cities"

I will gladly face the charges against me for my role in speaking out against torture, if those in the government agencies face their charges fully, as well.

Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex

Link of a blow by blow account of the infamous man in the hood with electrical cables standing on a box at Abu Ghirab. Horrific abuse to an innocent man.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13379

torture survivors find it deplorable that the miliitary commissions act of '06 still stands.... we need to repeal this act in which:
1. sexual torture is legalized as an interrogation method: forcing a detainee to dance naked, while urinating on her is not considered sexual assault...also forced oral sex doesn't constitute rape under the torture law. the 'law' goes so far as to redefine sexual consent.
2. admission of coerced evidence is left up to the judge's discretion. the military commissions act defines coercion to exclude all manner of treatment, including cuts and bruises as well as anything before the passage of the '05 detainee treatment act.
3. non-us citizens can be disappeared indefinitely: the president or pentagon can declare anyone (other than us citizens) an illegal enemy combatant and imprison him/her indefinitely without ever charging the person with a crime
4. unfair/arbitrary trials may be conducted: this act allows confessions after torture to be considered and bars the suspect from even having knowledge of what the charges are against them, making a defense impossible.
5. geneva convention protections are denied: the mca states that 'no person may invoke the geneva conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the united states, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the armed forces, or other agent of the united states is a party as a source of rights in any court of the united states or its states or territories'.
6. detainees deemed 'guilty' by evidence acquired via torture can be sentenced to death.
FOR ANYONE SERIOUSLY SEEKING TO PUT AN END TO TORTURE (and not only assign blame),
visit www.torturelaw.org and get involved with or financially support organizations like TASSC (torture abolition & survivors support coalition int'l) at www.tassc.org.

What bunk. Unexpected from such a good observer as Naom Wolfe.

All or nearly all educated people were sickened by and are furious about the American torture machinery, right from the first revelations of it. They WERE speaking out from the beginning. The rulers carried on unfazed.

Further, those who were (and are) actually torturing people - those sticking the electrodes on the genitals, loosing the dogs, stripping and humiliating INNOCENT people - are sick and dangerous for sure now if they weren't before. They must be named, prosecuted, treated, and kept apart from civil society until they are certainly healed.

Being a coward and following orders is not an excuse. Being an ignorant young propagandized bigoted american is no excuse. Even if it were the reality of how engaging in torture damages the perpetrator as well as the victim is not erased and we need to know who these people are and how they have beed affected.

Lastly, prosecution has at least a small chance of raising the awareness slightly of the typical american soldier. Maybe one of them will think twice before disgracing america and disgusting the world further.

As a piece of Eurotrash who pointed this out years ago and was roundly denounced for being an enemy of freedom, I would choose this opportunity to beg you to actually hold these people to account.

You have this power.

As a Brit, we really don't have this power.

If you do, you will not only be doing it for yourselves.

When I first read Walt Kelly's Pogo's words:
"We have found the enemy, and he is us.",
I thought it might refer to looking in the mirror.

Today, two generations later I think it applies.

A thread of torture goes back a long way in history.
I suspect it was never broken completely.
Of late, there has been a public condemnation.
It came with great gravity and universal self-congratulations.

Who doesn't know it's simply wrong and illegal too?
It's quite simple, really. Right or wrong.
Nothing against advanced degrees, but only one's humanity is required.
Our laws, basic, structured, inevitable, should take care of this.

The means and methods don't need invention.
They only need be applied.

We have to take care of ourselves individually and collectively.

Provoke Thought!

This is no longer America. At least the concept of America I was told America was. This is some surreal daydream where we pray at the alter of money and the pursuit of money and consumption. The America I was told about would not even think about torture. I now know this concept of America that I was told about never existed.

Lets say perhaps Ms. Wolf is onto something and there's enough torture guilt to go around. I'd have to say she's a little wrong, because I know some new borns were in no way complicit. Far as the long protesting public, I think she's also wrong about their complicity.

I think the ignorant public, who watch 24, celebrate the CIA and think a little bit of torture can be a good thing, I'd assign them a 1 as a baseline for guilt. The CIA agents who carried out the torture, I'm going to guess most of them were about a 7 or 8 on the guilt scale. I'm guessing some of them enjoyed their work and I'd rate them at about a 12 to 15. The top leadership, who is torturing the world for cash and power and longevity, I'd put their guilt somewhere between 30 and 50. The VERY top leadership, who I'm guessing is just 1 person on the whole planet, long utilized of regenerative medicine, who may have survived millenia and murders daily in the hopes to secure his immortality, that guy, I'd put his guilt for this situation at some trillions times 10 to some other very big number.

Lets say perhaps Ms. Wolf is onto something and there's enough torture guilt to go around. I'd have to say she's a little wrong, because I know some new borns were in no way complicit. Far as the long protesting public, I think she's also wrong about their complicity.

I think the ignorant public, who watch 24, celebrate the CIA and think a little bit of torture can be a good thing, I'd assign them a 1 as a baseline for guilt. The CIA agents who carried out the torture, I'm going to guess most of them were about a 7 or 8 on the guilt scale. I'm guessing some of them enjoyed their work and I'd rate them at about a 12 to 15. The top leadership, who is torturing the world for cash and power and longevity, I'd put their guilt somewhere between 30 and 50. The VERY top leadership, who I'm guessing is just 1 person on the whole planet, long utilized of regenerative medicine, who may have survived millenia and murders daily in the hopes to secure his immortality, that guy, I'd put his guilt for this situation at some trillions times 10 to some other very big number.

To any people who made any effort to stop the fascist crap that has been delivered to US: thanks. Take justifiable pride in doing what you can.

So few in the military and the government have tried. Where are the patriots? No nation can survive when so few of its people care about its honor.

The ultimate responsibility falls on the voters. In the last election the voters had an opportunity to vote for State Attorneys General who would Indict Bush/Cheney. The voters instead voted for AGs who will not prosecute. The voters always get what they deserve - unfortunately many in other countries suffer the consequences.

Friends (Quakers) Committee on National Legislation is mounting a letter writing campaign for bipartisan commission of inquiry and appointment of a special prosecutor:

http://fcnl.org/index.htm

it's haunting how words can echo through time...

from deutschland june 1942 -
the first leaflet of the white rose society....

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/leafets.html

{Nothing is so unworthy of a civilized nation as allowing itself to be "governed" without opposition by an irresponsible clique that has yielded to base instinct. It is certain that today every honest German is ashamed of his government. Who among us has any conception of the dimensions of shame that will befall us and our children when one day the veil has fallen from our eyes and the most horrible of crimes - crimes that infinitely outdistance every human measure - reach the light of day?

If the German people are already so corrupted and spiritually crushed that they do not raise a hand, frivolously trusting in a questionable faith in lawful order in history; if they surrender man's highest principle, that which raises him above all other God's creatures, his free will; if they abandon the will to take decisive action and turn the wheel of history and thus subject it to their own rational decision; if they are so devoid of all individuality, have already gone so far along the road toward turning into a spiritless and cowardly mass - then, yes, they deserve their downfall. Goethe speaks of the Germans as a tragic people, like the Jews and the Greeks, but today it would appear rather that they are a spineless, will-less herd of hangers-on, who now - the marrow sucked out of their bones, robbed of their center of stability - are waiting to be hounded to their destruction.

So it seems - but it is not so. Rather, by means of a gradual, treacherous, systematic abuse, the system has put every man into a spiritual prison. Only now, finding himself lying in fetters, has he become aware of his fate. Only a few recognized the threat of ruin, and the reward for their heroic warning was death. We will have more to say about the fate of these persons.

If everyone waits until the other man makes a start, the messengers of avenging Nemesis will come steadily closer; then even the last victim will have been cast senselessly into the maw of the insatiable demon. Therefore every individual, conscious of his responsibility as a member of Christian and Western civilization, must defend himself against the scourges of mankind, against fascism and any similar system of totalitarianism.

Offer passive resistance - resistance - wherever you may be, forestall the spread of this atheistic war machine before it is too late, before the last cities, like Cologne, have been reduced to rubble, and before the nation's last young man has given his blood on some battlefield for the hubris of a sub-human. Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure.}

We did not strike. We did not shut down the cities. We did not form human chains across the highways. We did not camp out at the capitol and refuse to leave until the torture stopped.

We did none of the things that citizens of other nations do when faced with egregious policies.

We are, in large part, the descendants of people who chose to come here instead of trying to change things in their homelands.

I do not think we are better for it.

I sure do find it reprehensible the way some folks on this thread do their doggone best to excuse themselves from any responsibility for US foreign policy.

US "exceptionalism" at its most insidious.

We can now add Obama's name to the list, as failing to investigate and prosecute cases of torture is itself a crime, both in US and international law...something that I bet the next republican White House in their hypocracy will NOT fail to prosecute...

"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats

"But I Never Know About The Torturing And The Genocide"

So said the German people about their country's barbaric practices during WW II.

And so say us Americans about the atrocities that our military and the CIA are committing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Those of us who have protested, marched, written, emailed, called, and visited our Congress members since before the Cheney/Bush illegal war on Iraq, and have been outraged about, and worked against, the U.S. Empire since learning about it many years ago, have listened to our consciences and tried to act on our moral beliefs.

What about the corporate media which beat the drums for war and still pretends that torture is "debatable"? War-mongering and flag-waving always gets high ratings and makes big bucks for these "professional" [a.k.a. conscienceless], pretty-faced news readers.

And is it right to immunize low-level soldiers and contractors who carried out illegal orders, actually doing the physical and psychological torturing? Are hit men less guilty than their Mafia Dons? Soldiers have a sworn duty to refuse illegal orders. The "I was only following orders" defense was invalidated at the Nuremberg Trials. Some of them did refuse to carry out these illegal, immoral orders. The fact that so many did not refuse is a sad reflection on our military "leadership" as well as our culture, including shows such as "24".

Justin Frank (author of Bush on the Couch) has a unique take on why Obama must investigate torture crimes.

"...the psychological health of the nation depends on our prosecuting the Bush administration officials responsible for torture. Strange as it may sound, this can only benefit our own collective mental health: our psychic healing demands that we affix responsibility and recognize that, no matter how well we all hide it or compensate for it, George W. Bush’s cruelty exists in each of us."

Why Obama is in Denial (unedited):

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/42069

Hey--if I'm one of the accused, I'm squelching any investigation right here and now.

Why does the left think it's so cool to vent their wrath at others' crimes on themselves? This helps the Right immeasurably.

To hell with that! The Bush gang committed torture, not the Democratic Congress, and certainly not us. Let's prosecute the people who screwed up--not ourselves for failing at sainthood.

Sorry. but this IS America. Always has been, probably always will be. From our birth through this very moment.

Just ask the American indians about it.

The bigger problem is, what can we really do about the never-ending march of euro-centric elites to control humanity, or, are they now in total control?

Otherwise, everything else is moot.

We are all Saddam Husseins now.

You become what you hate.

"As citizens' outrage over the torture memos heats up..."

Love NW, but, come on honey - look out your window: you see signs of outrage heating up?

The majority of 'citizens' could give a flying f@#k whether 'we' torture(d) a buncha foreigners or not. The tiny minority who do may be 'outraged,' but outrage that does not manifest into serious action is nothing more than a tree falling in an empty forest...

The U.S. is no worse than most other countries. Circumstances like 9/11 severely test the moral stamina of people who in ordinary times would never think of torturing anyone. Add to this the fact that torture is, in some very limited circumstances, morally justified. Everyone discussing the subject confuses the definitions of torture (noun and verb). The matter is not nearly as simple as Naomi Wolf suggests. I've discussed all this at other locations on the site (search for manning120). At the moment perhaps the most important point is that we have no internationally accepted understanding of what circumstances justify methods of interrogation that have been described as "torture," and no internationally accepted legal system for holding accountable persons who torture without justification.

Just the title of your Article wouldn't get much argument from me. Even so I've met people of all races who regardless of how things are in your Nation are trying to do their best within the framework of what you call Civilization.

Myself, I am just on my journey through your world. Met so many people in my travels & have such wonderful memories of the time I spent with them. I am happy to be a part of Creator's creation. To see Creator's earth. To get out in nature & be among Creator's critters, & all the other life forms of creation.

To be this thing called, alive, & to hear the song of the birds. To walk through a woods or forest that to me is a living breathing painting that I am being treated, too. To watch the sunrises & sunsets that are living breathing paintings I am being treated,too.

They may be the same in many regards, and yet the painting always changes in many regards, textures, shapes, & colors.

Quite rain today, but the birds still sing.

The planet orbits going nowhere & getting nowhere.

Life is good. What an experience! It's always best to forgive.

As a Canadian how do you profess to speak in behalf of Americans? It is clear to me that you speak for yourself Naomi. Most Americans do NOT wear uniforms of the state.

These crimes were just that,--crimes! They need to all be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Without that we will get sons and daughters of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Rice, Powell who will screw things up 30 years from now all over again just like they did from the days of Nexon. These people are cancer-ridden and need radical mastectomy-like operations on their pointy little heads.

michael jordan

http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/

I think that a huge complication with appropriate investigations going forward is that it would require the wrongdoing regime investigating and punishing itself for foundational crimes. Pelosi and most of Congress's prior approval of the torture is a symptom of this.

Comparisons are often made to Nuremberg. At Nuremberg, however, it was an outside force or collection of forces - the entities, other nations, which defeated the Axis in WW2 - that conducted the investigations and carried through the sentences.

In the present case of the US torture and war crimes, on the other hand, it would actually require the same regime in power to investigate itself. We have a new administration, but the same regime, with generally the same class of ruling elites and much of the same ideology handed down in a continuation of power, at every national election in the US.

Has there EVER been an instance in history of a ruling class admitting to its own major crimes, and prosecuting itself? Anywhere?

Perhaps the US system of peaceful transfer of nominal power via elections has some major down sides, such as the present dilemma. Is revolution the only real answer?

I am in favor of Senator Patrick Leahy proceeding with an investigation and truth seeking panel regarding the torture policy of the Bush administration. He should know he has the support of those of us who have always been against torture.
I disagree, as well, with Wolf's asserting that I am responsible for the torture policy. This rhetorical devise adds drama to a piece but it is not an accurate conclusion to have come to.

It is more fun to spend two years investigating and impeaching one President for a sexual fling in the White House and not being truthful (under oath). Isn`t it about time to do the same investigating for lying us into war, killing thousands, throwing our surplus away, torturing, breaking many treaties, trampling on the Constitution, and doing that also under oath instead of in a private meeting with no notes taken and no reporters allowed? Our country seems to have lost it`s principles and anything goes as long as I get mine.

"indemnify those lower down the chain of command to get their testimonies,"

That is, make their suspended sentences CONDITIONAL on their testimony. It is absurd to suppose that people carrying out those acts thought they were OK. Either they are sadists who shouldn't be running loose, or they aren't sleeping at night. I wonder how many have severe PTSD? The good ones.

Testimony would help a lot with that; their "indemnification" should be completely conditional.

But this isn't the real issue: the real issue is "moving forward," which means that Obama gets to keep Bush's usurped powers.

I campaigned against him and for Cynthia McKinney, but even I didn't think he was this bad.

Oregoncharles

For reasons that pass understanding, Americans still believe they have a basically good country, honest, true to it's word. They still seek answers to their problems as well as the internal problems of the US and Foreign calamities in the confines of the same failed, moribund system. It is clear that most Americans have no earthly awareness of the REAL underbelly of this rotting corpse of a nation. It has only had to fight ONE war since the Revolutionary war. That would be world war II. Partly because of the draconian laws applied to Germany, and because Wall STreet was supplying Hitler with steel, money, and other war making commodities. America is no democracy,never has been,and moves further from that goal with each passing day. This country is in desperate need of an ENTIRE SOCIAL CONTROL PARADIGM SHIFT. That would be the dissolution of the current clearly proven worthless "government" currently extant. Either we look for peace, or we don't. I've heard the continuous ongoing canard that we want peace but we have to protect ourselves from the other mopes in the world. First the US would have set peace as their motive for EVERYTHING THEY DO. NOT MONEY, POWER, AND GREED. The US cannot beat China in "Free Market Capitalism." The US plays by no real rules, and anyone who believes in "market forces" as those that restore it to honesty and smooth running is clearly stupid. Sorry Naomi, i'm no terrorist. I've been twice visited by the US Secret Service for threatening George Bush. In truth, i'm a poor man, and there is nothing i could really do, but there are other people who could take on a leadership position that aren't limpwristed, pantie sniffers. So far though, nobody has stepped up to the plate. Since next time i go to jail, i'll avoid Bush. Even Obama is stumped. But I expected this. There is no way he could know what he was getting himself into. My best of hopes for the President. I think I could believe him if he came up with things i can do that don't involve talking to the American sheeple

tedbohne
N321MM@msn.com

During World War II there were many in Germany who were against the policies of the Nazi regime. But after the war, all of the German people were held responsible.

Yes, we have opposed the torture from the start. But the fact that we have not stopped it and held those accountable who formunlated and carried it out makes us complicit today. We (and that includes me) have not done enough. What will we tell future generations when they ask "Why did you not hold those responsible for their crimes? Why did you allow it to continue?"

Yes I have written to Congress. But that does not absolve me of the blame until everyone responsible for these attrocities is brought to justice.
I hang my head in shame.