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Published on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 by Jurist
A Call to End All Renditions
Binyam Mohamed, an Ethiopian residing in Britain, said he was tortured after being sent to Morocco and Afghanistan in 2002 by the U.S. government. Mohamed was transferred to Guantánamo in 2004 and all terrorism charges against him were dismissed last year. Mohamed was a victim of extraordinary rendition, in which a person is abducted without any legal proceedings and transferred to a foreign country for detention and interrogation, often tortured.
Mohamed and four other plaintiffs are accusing Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan, Inc. of flying them to other countries and secret CIA camps where they were tortured. In Mohamed’s case, two British justices accused the Bush administration of pressuring the British government to block the release of evidence that was “relevant to allegations of torture” of Mohamed.
Twenty-five lines edited out of the court documents included details about how Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel as well as other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding “is very far down the list of things they did,” according to a British official quoted by the Telegraph (UK).
The plaintiffs’ complaint quotes a former Jeppesen employee as saying, “We do all of the extraordinary rendition flights – you know, the torture flights.” A senior company official also apparently admitted the company transported people to countries where they would be tortured.
Obama’s Justice Department appeared before a three-judge panel of the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Monday in the Jeppesen lawsuit. But instead of making a clean break with the dark policies of the Bush years, the Obama administration claimed the same “state secrets” privilege that Bush used to block inquiry into his policies of torture and illegal surveillance. Claiming that the extraordinary rendition program is a state secret is disingenuous since it is has been extensively documented in the media.
“This was an opportunity for the new administration to act on its condemnation of torture and rendition, but instead it has chosen to stay the course,” said the ACLU’s Ben Wizner, counsel for the five men.
If the judges accept Obama's state secrets claim, these men will be denied their day in court and precluded from any recovery for the damages they suffered as a result of extraordinary rendition.
Two and a half weeks before Obama’s representative appeared in the Jeppesen case, the new President had signed Executive Order 13491. It established a special task force “to study and evaluate the practices of transferring individuals to other nations in order to ensure that such practices comply with the domestic laws, international obligations, and policies of the United States and do not result in the transfer of individuals to other nations to face torture or otherwise for the purpose, or with the effect, of undermining or circumventing the commitments or obligations of the United States to ensure the humane treatment of individuals in its custody or control.”
This order prohibits extraordinary rendition. It also ensures humane treatment of persons in U.S. custody or control. But it doesn’t specifically guarantee that prisoners the United States renders to other countries will be free from cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment that doesn’t amount to torture. It does, however, aim to ensure that our government’s practices of transferring people to other countries complies with U.S. laws and policies, including our obligations under international law.
One of those laws is the International Covenant on Civil Political Rights (ICCPR), a treaty the United States ratified in 1992. Article 7 of the ICCPR prohibits the States Parties from subjecting persons “to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.” The UN Human Rights Committee, which is the body that monitors the ICCPR, has interpreted that prohibition to forbid States Parties from exposing “individuals to the danger of torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment upon return to another country by way of their extradition, expulsion or refoulement.”
Order 13491 also mandates, “The CIA shall close as expeditiously as possible any detention facilities that it currently operates and shall not operate any such detention facility in the future.” The order does not define “expeditiously” and the definitional section of the order says that the terms ‘detention facilities’ and ‘detention facility’ “do not refer to facilities used only to hold people on a short-term, transitory basis.” Once again, “short term” and “transitory” are not defined.
In his confirmation hearing, Attorney General Eric Holder categorically stated that the United States should not turn over an individual to a country where we have reason to believe he will be tortured. Leon Panetta, nominee for CIA director, went further last week and interpreted Order 13491 as forbidding “that kind of extraordinary rendition, where we send someone for the purposes of torture or for actions by another country that violate our human values.”
But alarmingly, Panetta appeared to champion the same standard used by the Bush administration, which reportedly engaged in extraordinary rendition 100 to 150 times as of March 2005. After September 11, 2001, President Bush issued a classified directive that expanded the CIA’s authority to render terrorist suspects to other States. Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said the CIA and the State Department received assurances that prisoners will be treated humanely. “I will seek the same kinds of assurances that they will not be treated inhumanely,” Panetta told the senators.
Gonzales had admitted, however, “We can’t fully control what that country might do. We obviously expect a country to whom we have rendered a detainee to comply with their representations to us . . . If you’re asking me, ‘Does a country always comply?’ I don’t have an answer to that.”
The answer is no. Binyam Mohamed’s case is apparently the tip of the iceberg. Maher Arar, a Canadian born in Syria, was apprehended by U.S. authorities in New York on September 26, 2002, and transported to Syria, where he was brutally tortured for months. Arar used an Arabic expression to describe the pain he experienced: “you forget the milk that you have been fed from the breast of your mother.” The Canadian government later exonerated Arar of any terrorist ties. In another instance, thirteen CIA operatives were arrested in Italy for kidnapping an Egyptian, Abu Omar, in Milan and transporting him to Cairo where he was tortured.
Panetta made clear that the CIA will continue to engage in rendition to detain and interrogate terrorism suspects and transfer them to other countries. “If we capture a high-value prisoner,” he said, “I believe we have the right to hold that individual temporarily to be able to debrief that individual and make sure that individual is properly incarcerated.” No clarification of how long is “temporarily” or what “debrief” would mean.
When Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.) asked about the Clinton administration’s use of the CIA to transfer prisoners to countries where they were later executed, Panetta replied, “I think that is an appropriate use of rendition.” Jane Mayer, columnist for the New Yorker, has documented numerous instances of extraordinary rendition during the Clinton administration, including cases in which suspects were executed in the country to which the United States had rendered them. Once when Richard Clarke, President Clinton’s chief counter-terrorism adviser on the National Security Council, “proposed a snatch,” Vice-President Al Gore said, “That’s a no-brainer. Of course it’s a violation of international law, that’s why it’s a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.”
There is a slippery slope between ordinary rendition and extraordinary rendition. “Rendition has to end,” Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, recently told Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!: “Rendition is a violation of sovereignty. It’s a kidnapping. It’s force and violence.” Ratner queried whether Cuba could enter the United States and take Luis Posada, the man responsible for blowing up a commercial Cuban airline in 1976 and killing 73 people. Or whether the United States could go down to Cuba and kidnap Assata Shakur, who escaped a murder charge in New Jersey.
Moreover, “renditions for the most part weren’t very productive,” a former CIA official told the Los Angeles Times. After a prisoner was turned over to authorities in Egypt, Jordan or another country, the CIA had very little influence over how prisoners were treated and whether they were ultimately released.
The U.S. government should disclose the identities, fate, and current whereabouts of all persons detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody by the CIA since 2001. Those who ordered renditions should be prosecuted. And the special task force should recommend, and Obama should agree to, an end to all renditions.
Mohamed and four other plaintiffs are accusing Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan, Inc. of flying them to other countries and secret CIA camps where they were tortured. In Mohamed’s case, two British justices accused the Bush administration of pressuring the British government to block the release of evidence that was “relevant to allegations of torture” of Mohamed.
Twenty-five lines edited out of the court documents included details about how Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel as well as other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding “is very far down the list of things they did,” according to a British official quoted by the Telegraph (UK).
The plaintiffs’ complaint quotes a former Jeppesen employee as saying, “We do all of the extraordinary rendition flights – you know, the torture flights.” A senior company official also apparently admitted the company transported people to countries where they would be tortured.
Obama’s Justice Department appeared before a three-judge panel of the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Monday in the Jeppesen lawsuit. But instead of making a clean break with the dark policies of the Bush years, the Obama administration claimed the same “state secrets” privilege that Bush used to block inquiry into his policies of torture and illegal surveillance. Claiming that the extraordinary rendition program is a state secret is disingenuous since it is has been extensively documented in the media.
“This was an opportunity for the new administration to act on its condemnation of torture and rendition, but instead it has chosen to stay the course,” said the ACLU’s Ben Wizner, counsel for the five men.
If the judges accept Obama's state secrets claim, these men will be denied their day in court and precluded from any recovery for the damages they suffered as a result of extraordinary rendition.
Two and a half weeks before Obama’s representative appeared in the Jeppesen case, the new President had signed Executive Order 13491. It established a special task force “to study and evaluate the practices of transferring individuals to other nations in order to ensure that such practices comply with the domestic laws, international obligations, and policies of the United States and do not result in the transfer of individuals to other nations to face torture or otherwise for the purpose, or with the effect, of undermining or circumventing the commitments or obligations of the United States to ensure the humane treatment of individuals in its custody or control.”
This order prohibits extraordinary rendition. It also ensures humane treatment of persons in U.S. custody or control. But it doesn’t specifically guarantee that prisoners the United States renders to other countries will be free from cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment that doesn’t amount to torture. It does, however, aim to ensure that our government’s practices of transferring people to other countries complies with U.S. laws and policies, including our obligations under international law.
One of those laws is the International Covenant on Civil Political Rights (ICCPR), a treaty the United States ratified in 1992. Article 7 of the ICCPR prohibits the States Parties from subjecting persons “to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.” The UN Human Rights Committee, which is the body that monitors the ICCPR, has interpreted that prohibition to forbid States Parties from exposing “individuals to the danger of torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment upon return to another country by way of their extradition, expulsion or refoulement.”
Order 13491 also mandates, “The CIA shall close as expeditiously as possible any detention facilities that it currently operates and shall not operate any such detention facility in the future.” The order does not define “expeditiously” and the definitional section of the order says that the terms ‘detention facilities’ and ‘detention facility’ “do not refer to facilities used only to hold people on a short-term, transitory basis.” Once again, “short term” and “transitory” are not defined.
In his confirmation hearing, Attorney General Eric Holder categorically stated that the United States should not turn over an individual to a country where we have reason to believe he will be tortured. Leon Panetta, nominee for CIA director, went further last week and interpreted Order 13491 as forbidding “that kind of extraordinary rendition, where we send someone for the purposes of torture or for actions by another country that violate our human values.”
But alarmingly, Panetta appeared to champion the same standard used by the Bush administration, which reportedly engaged in extraordinary rendition 100 to 150 times as of March 2005. After September 11, 2001, President Bush issued a classified directive that expanded the CIA’s authority to render terrorist suspects to other States. Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said the CIA and the State Department received assurances that prisoners will be treated humanely. “I will seek the same kinds of assurances that they will not be treated inhumanely,” Panetta told the senators.
Gonzales had admitted, however, “We can’t fully control what that country might do. We obviously expect a country to whom we have rendered a detainee to comply with their representations to us . . . If you’re asking me, ‘Does a country always comply?’ I don’t have an answer to that.”
The answer is no. Binyam Mohamed’s case is apparently the tip of the iceberg. Maher Arar, a Canadian born in Syria, was apprehended by U.S. authorities in New York on September 26, 2002, and transported to Syria, where he was brutally tortured for months. Arar used an Arabic expression to describe the pain he experienced: “you forget the milk that you have been fed from the breast of your mother.” The Canadian government later exonerated Arar of any terrorist ties. In another instance, thirteen CIA operatives were arrested in Italy for kidnapping an Egyptian, Abu Omar, in Milan and transporting him to Cairo where he was tortured.
Panetta made clear that the CIA will continue to engage in rendition to detain and interrogate terrorism suspects and transfer them to other countries. “If we capture a high-value prisoner,” he said, “I believe we have the right to hold that individual temporarily to be able to debrief that individual and make sure that individual is properly incarcerated.” No clarification of how long is “temporarily” or what “debrief” would mean.
When Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.) asked about the Clinton administration’s use of the CIA to transfer prisoners to countries where they were later executed, Panetta replied, “I think that is an appropriate use of rendition.” Jane Mayer, columnist for the New Yorker, has documented numerous instances of extraordinary rendition during the Clinton administration, including cases in which suspects were executed in the country to which the United States had rendered them. Once when Richard Clarke, President Clinton’s chief counter-terrorism adviser on the National Security Council, “proposed a snatch,” Vice-President Al Gore said, “That’s a no-brainer. Of course it’s a violation of international law, that’s why it’s a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.”
There is a slippery slope between ordinary rendition and extraordinary rendition. “Rendition has to end,” Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, recently told Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!: “Rendition is a violation of sovereignty. It’s a kidnapping. It’s force and violence.” Ratner queried whether Cuba could enter the United States and take Luis Posada, the man responsible for blowing up a commercial Cuban airline in 1976 and killing 73 people. Or whether the United States could go down to Cuba and kidnap Assata Shakur, who escaped a murder charge in New Jersey.
Moreover, “renditions for the most part weren’t very productive,” a former CIA official told the Los Angeles Times. After a prisoner was turned over to authorities in Egypt, Jordan or another country, the CIA had very little influence over how prisoners were treated and whether they were ultimately released.
The U.S. government should disclose the identities, fate, and current whereabouts of all persons detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody by the CIA since 2001. Those who ordered renditions should be prosecuted. And the special task force should recommend, and Obama should agree to, an end to all renditions.
© JURIST Legal News and Research Services, Inc., 2009
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42 Comments so far
Show AllA Call to End All Renditions
__________________________________
That's one call the New Boss isn't going to take.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Rendition is condemnation, a sentence without trial, representation, or hearing. I lost faith in this country over the last 8 years, and the glimmer of hope that was sparked by this new administration is fading rapidly.
"The U.S. government should disclose the identities, fate, and current whereabouts of all persons detained by the CIA or rendered to foreign custody by the CIA since 2001."
Might as well give the keys to the nuclear arsenal to Osama.
Sioux Rose
DMIA: Given the turnaround on Obama's actions in this instance, and the "yes men" all lining up to grant cover to the CRIMES of the Bush administration, they must all be getting their marching orders from someone (or some group) that's made it very clear they must TREAD very lightly on this foreign policy aspect. It will bring about a very different domino effect if neutral courts get to hear real data and recognize the degree of subterfuge at work. The whole thing has been largely an Orwellian house of sadistic mirrors, and no one wants to account for it. Instead of owning up to how fictitious and depraved the whole thing was, they just want to cover it up and maintain the same policies so that a change of direction doesn't let the stench of what's taken place stir too close to home.
I'm fairly certain the makers of war, whether bankers and/or their military counterparts have decided that war creates its own rules and they've anointed themselves immunity. Proof again they THINK Mars rules. This beast is not accountable to justice or just practices, smirks in the face of the laws of men. It has TAKEN over... given the fiscal uncertainty of global economies, that so much $ (at least in our land) is being wasted on armaments shows the warped and dangerous policies of those who are positioned to set policy. IT is a SIN against mankind! NO wonder they have to hide behind patriotism and religion... if Americans don't soon see through the illusion, the militarization of our society will get worse, and as so many have pointed out in this forum, when scarcity comes to our own supermarkets, all those 2 billion guns loose on the streets could create some real wild wild west style frenzy giving those with the bigger guns all the provocation they need to use them. LIFE is meaningless to those taught to honor the DEATH machine.
The threat of death is meaningless to a parent with a hungry kid at home.
I know I don't look like much but you can push me only so far.
Ratner queried whether Cuba could enter the United States and take Luis Posada, the man responsible for blowing up a commercial Cuban airline in 1976 and killing 73 people. Or whether the United States could go down to Cuba and kidnap Assata Shakur, who escaped a murder charge in New Jersey.
--------------
A better question...
Could Iran order the snatch and renditon of the CEO's of U.S. Defense and Oil Companies because of their past involvement in war crimes?
If Obama continues in the Clinton/Bush tradition and claims the right to rendition why can't every President around the world claim the same right?
Or is this more American exceptionalism?
Sioux Rose
CYGNUS: It's a fair question. The only thing thus far stopping it is the threat of U.S. military action. However, if enough countries got together and got fed up with the U.S. practices and ostensible double standard, that might be another matter. Since the mindset of the East as well as Europe is far more patient than that seen in the U.S. instant gratification society, intelligent planners may be awaiting the U.S. giant to fall on its knees fiscally, and THEN strike a blow.
Half the reason for the rules on how to treat prisoners (i.e. "enemy combatants") was for reciprocity alone. What military commander would set his troops up for sliced genitals, nice precedent, guys? Maybe American soldiers get so pumped up with a pseudo sense of their own invincibility and moral righteousness that they fail to recognize that eventually karma finds a way to come back around, call it cosmic blowback. NO one is immune.
I think many of us saw Obama sliding rightwards with some of his slippery statements BEFORE gaining office. Many of us sensed that our nation's corporate reliance on PR and advertising programs to move minds was at work in the form of a new PACKAGE for president, maintaining the same dismal, illegal (in many instances) content. Now we have added to this toxic mixture the same cabinet personnel as used in previous adminstrations who GOT THE U.S to the tip of the moral, fiscal, and ecological abyss. That's experience you can count on! Change... ? It's grand larceny of hope and a twisted course of action, when bolder, more decent moves might with a wing and a prayer save this nation (there are many good people in it) from itself.
The only thing thus far stopping it is the threat of U.S. military action.
-------------------
The bully makes the rules, indeed Sioux.
Snatching people and whisking them away in my book is kidnapping. It's a crime. Especially if the person whisked away is found innocent.
If you want to detain a suspected criminal in another country you ask that they be extradited.
If the United States took the lead in obeying international law other countries would comply with extradition requests.
Instead the United States is a rogue country that no longer lives up to the treaties it has signed.
Thus, extreme policies like rendition continue.
When a prominent American gets renditioned by a nation that's mostly non-Christian or non-white JoeHope will be leading the uproar.
Sioux Rose
CYGNUS: I totally agree. I find it very interesting that the Northern hemisphere, primarily U.S., Canada (seems to be taking on U.S. content and character), and some of Europe has turned quasi-fascist thanks to the ruse of "terrorism" everywhere, while South America has turned quite progressive and learned to spread more wealth around.
Similarly, there seems an East-West reversal underway where the U.S. has taken on the status of the damned/Russia (thanks to its own actions), while Russia, at least insofar as Putin's recent speech at Davos is concerned, is shaping up to sound like a genuine cooperative player in global politics, interested in HUMAN development.
At the end of the Piscean Age, as can be seen in its symbol of fish traveling in REVERSED directions, many things have become their opposite, like this land of the free a gigantic prison.
Slightly off topic, but maybe not: I just did my once a week mail check and my bank of America credit card added, dig this, a $100 FEE for "Overdraft protection." I did not request this, did not approve this, but those bastards who just heisted billions are STILL looking for every way to stick it to the everyday customer. I have previously shared in this forum OTHER insidious practices by this bank which is to banking what mafia is to law and order. Our society HAS broken down, it's like the crack in its protective walls has already taken place, but all the pundits just want to keep everybody marching along as if there's no real change in the status quo. More and more New Orleans seems like the most apt symbol for American governance of late.
Paul Siemering
great post, Sioux Rose. thanks
Sioux Rose
Thank you PAUL/ABUELO, your heart and outrage usually run in synch with my own.
johngary66
Sioux Rose, are you doing anything in 2012? Would you be willing to run for President? How about Congress? We are going to need new candidates and now is not to early to get started finding them.
Sioux Rose
JOHNGary: Thanks for the affirmative vote! I see myself as a teacher/writer who in time might have some impact on opening/expanding minds so that future generations will not have to bear with the same costly mistakes as previous ones.
Enhanced Interrogation is to torture, as Rendition is to Kidnapping.
I doubt any of you can answer Greenwald's question:
"I have a question for those who believe that rendition, in all cases (even when it's not used to disappear individuals or send individuals to countries where they will be tortured), is inappropriate and wrong:
Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that: (a) the U.S. learns exactly where Osama bin Laden is located in Pakistan; (b) there is ample evidence that bin Laden (i) perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and (ii) is in the advanced stages of planning new imminent attacks on the U.S.; and (c) the Pakistani Government is either unwilling or unable to apprehend bin Laden in order to extradite him to the U.S. for trial. Further suppose that efforts to compel the Pakistanis to do so through the U.N. are blocked (because, say, China or Russia vetoes any actions).
What, if anything, is the U.S. (under current facts) permitted to do about Osama bin Laden, who -- we're assuming for purposes of these discussions -- clearly perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and is in the process of plotting new attacks? As far as I can tell, the options would be: (a) drop a bomb on him and kill him with no due process; (b) enter Pakistan, apprehend him, and bring him to the U.S. for a trial (i.e., rendition); or (c) do nothing, and just leave him be.
Those who are arguing that rendition is illegitimate in all cases (rather than in the torture-enabling and disappearance-causing forms used by Bush) have the obligation to answer that question specifically (and the same question would pertain to a common criminal -- say, a mass murderer -- who flees the U.S. to a country which refuses to comply with its extradition obligations to send the accused murderer to the U.S. for trial)."
And that, in a nutshell, is why we need renditions.
Do you grant the leaders of all countries the right to also be able to rendition any person they consider a suspected criminal based on their individual laws and system of justice?
You've written many things about many countries that according to their laws may constitute a threat and therefore a crime.
Is this really the road you want the world to travel down?
Yes! Please, someone... anyone, rendition all the members of the CFR who have infiltrated the US Government and who have led our nation into a slough of war crimes and treasonous acts against our nation's Constitution and Bill of Rights!
Rendition the members of the Bohemian Grove, the PNAC, and the Bilderberg Group!
Rendition the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, and the illegal "Federal" Reserve!
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
[P.S. Cygnus X1 is a 52km diameter disco light!]
Moral and legal objections are fine things to consider, but I don't think you have addressed Greenwald's question.
If we took the approach you are advocating which is (c) "do nothing", according to Greenwald's scenario that would automatically result in another successful terrorist attack. Are you willing to condemn innocent Americans to die just for the sake of your intellectual idealism?
If using rendition against a single terrorist could save the lives of thousands or even millions of people, then isn't it immoral not to do it?
You watch way to much "24".
What if Osama binLaden didn't actually manage to mutate the laws of physics (ie: jet fuel that at a perfect burn never melts an engine, but at a poor burn can melt two 110 story buildings with four foot thick steel beams, and a third building 300 yards away that was never struck)? What if, as witnessed and filmed, there were charges in the buildings?
What if the people who are doing the "renditions" are the same ones who did 9/11.
What if the people who place human beings in Guantanamo and use torture methods from the Chinese to, "obtain false confessions," are trying to pin their own crimes on innocents and mere Arabian street thugs.
Has anyone that is an imminent threat been kidnapped and tortured, excuse me, "rendered" and "enhancedly interrogated"? No. The human beings thus far kidnapped and tortured have been, in the long run, proven innocent.
That, outside of your nutty shell and in the real world, is why kidnapping by governments, under any euphamism, is an international crime.
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
Do yourself a favor and read the 911 commission Report and the N.I.S.T. report. The steel in the Twin Towers didn't "melt" it was "structurally weakened". Bin Laden was behind 911, not the government. Bin Laden even admitted this on video.
Also, why would it be necessary to hit the towers with jets, if you could just blow them up? That's what they tried in 1993.
If the government was behind 911, why would they make the hijackers Saudi? Why not Iraqi?
24 is the best show on television. The way it deals with complex moral decisions (like Greenwald's question) is what makes the show great. I know it's a little over the top sometimes, but many of the scenarios make excellent food for thought. Terrorists are still out there waiting to kill us. We are a high value target. Yet Americans are becoming complacent again. It's like they've totally forgotten 911 ever happened. But as 24 reminds us, we're not out of the woods yet. In fact, due to Bush's actions we're more vulnerable now than ever.
"Also, why would it be necessary to hit the towers with jets, if you could just blow them up?"
To those who think the buildings were wired for explosives, one should ask if flying planes into them afterwards would mess up the configuration somehow.
It's called a "false flag" operation - do something horrendous and blame it on the enemy of your choice.
Operation Northwoods (shut down at the last minute by JFK).
Gulf of Tonkin (recently declassified as an intentional hoax by the US in order to enter the Viet Nam war).
Reichstag Fire (by Adolph Hitler, a man funded by Prescott Bush through Fritz Thyssen - AKA: treason).
So, of course you need to kidnap and torture people in order to get them to say they're involved, when they weren't.
"It's called a "false flag" operation "
Irrelevent, we all know that you guys like to use the term. OTOH, *my* point was that it doesn't make sense to wire a buildong with explosives and then jeporadize that wiring by flying a plane into it. You should pay attention.
They had no worries, because the buildings had been designed to take multiple jetliner strikes, as they were designed decades after a large aircraft struck the Empire State Building. The core was near indestructable, except of course still vulnerable to demolition charges.
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
"the buildings had been designed to take multiple jetliner strikes"
This was debunked years ago. "designed to take multiple jetliner strikes" is hardly the proper way to state a specific engineering criteria:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_707_impact.html
"The core was near indestructable, except of course still vulnerable to demolition charges."
We are talking about the *detonation systems* associated with demolition charges. They are never "indestructible". Pay closer attention.
Every single one of your points has been debunked years ago. If you don't know what these debunking arguments are, you can cure your ignorance by research. You should then be prepared to address those arguments, and not simply repeat the old and debunked points as you have done.
So, this fire that an NYFD firefighter stood next to and declared, "Two hoses can knock it out," this fire where people stood in the holes made by the jets and waved to helicopters, this fire that didn't kill these people somehow, "structurally weakened," girders at the ground level, hundreds of feet below and allowed the buildings to collapse at free-fall speed.
Show me the explanation in your Ommission Report where it explains how WTC Bldg. 7 was able to collapse at free-fall speed? Oh, that's right, they couldn't explain it. These are the first and only three steel frame buildings to collapse "due to fire" in world history, and it hasn't happened anywhere else since. Two planes take out three buildings because of oxygen deprived fires that people were standing next to?
Wanny buy a bridge?
"Two hoses can knock it out,"
*One* firefighter may have said that. That isn't what they all said collectively not by a long shot. You tipped your hand as being new at this by discussing "molten steel". That's Rosie's line.
"fire where people stood in the holes made by the jets and waved to helicopters"
You don't seem to understand that the temperature in a fire can vary. *shrug*.
"how WTC Bldg. 7 was able to collapse at free-fall speed?"
Your very best evidence that it fell so?
"These are the first and only three steel frame buildings to collapse "due to fire" in world history, and it hasn't happened anywhere else since."
It wasn't "due to fire". WTC 1+2 each had an airliner flown into them in addition to fire. WTC 7 had huge pieces of a large building fall on it in addition to fire.
You are obviously a beginner at this. You are easily duped by the snot nosed kids who put "Loose Change" together.
Ok, shill,
One fireman, but he was the fireman who first reached the site, standing there looking at the fire, a veteran of the NYPD. You say his experience is null and void?
"Temperature can vary", yes it does, but not where a human twenty feet away is unscorched,... but hundreds of feet away the foundation of a building is softened to the point of bulding collapse?
There are numerous films of Bldg. 7 falling at freefall speed, you're being intentionally contrary, main stream news showed it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvx904dAw0o
WTC 7 was largely untouched, it was 300 yards away, Bldg's 4, 5, and 6 were right next to the main towers, had extreme damage, were weaker buildings than 7, and still stood after the collapse of towers 1 and 2.
Shill, you may be pumping out contrary, nit picking assaults on me and my word choice for the sake of the casual reader, but you know that the official story is impossible.
The makers of "Loose Change", "9/11 Mysteries: Demolition", and "9/11 In Plane Sight" all actually had believed the official story. The makers of "Change" had intended to make a comedy ridiculing thruthers, but when they reviewed the main points presented by truthers, they realized they were right. Similarly, the makers of "Mysteries" and "Plane Sight" were offfended by truthers, and they too researched to prove truthers wrong, but also could only agree after weeks of research.
"9/11 Mysteries" -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871&ei=taKUSYmHGpCq-wGLw_2kDA&q=9%2F11+Mysteries
"In Plane Sight" -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5386487651203625811&ei=y5WUSfimLY3I-gGKxdTECA&q=911+in+plane+sight
"Loose Change" -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&ei=RpaUSeT0LI3I-gGKxdTECA&q=loose+change+2nd+edition
There. Now the passerby can take a gander and decide for their self. I'm not going to chase rats through a hay barn, or shills.
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
"One fireman, but he was the fireman who first reached the site, standing there looking at the fire,"
OK, he's a fireman.
"a veteran of the NYPD."
*Now* he's a policeman.
"You say his experience is null and void?"
No, you would take his testimony in context with the testimony of others, and I would doubt that *today* that fireman would say the same thing. Here are some other things said by firemen:
http://www.debunking911.com/quotes.htm
"but not where a human twenty feet away is unscorched, ... but hundreds of feet away the foundation of a building is softened to the point of bulding collapse?"
A photo showing a survivor in some part of the building taken from a safe spot hundreds of yards away is not comprehensive enough to indicate the status of the fire in other parts of the building. There is precious little photographic evidence of the fire deep within the building for obvious reasons.
"There are numerous films of Bldg. 7 falling at freefall speed,"
You don't simply show the video and claim freefall speed. You have to *analyze* the video. A proper analysis would be at least in part in text form, and would include the methodology used. Please show your very best analysis of a video proving freefall speed. As this is a text format post the text or a link to the text.
"WTC 7 was largely untouched,"
Really? Picture of "untouched" WTC 7:
http://911myths.com/assets/images/WTC7Corner.jpg
Another:
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/ZafarWTC7.jpg
Here's a bit more on the collapse, just for starters:
http://debunk911myths.org/topics/Collapse_of_7_World_Trade_Center
"The makers of "Loose Change","
Snot nosed kids. They had to correct numerous errors to get to their current version. In any case, if you are *ahem* "serious", you should steer clear of Loose Change and Zeitgeist.
Attacking typos?
I hear a fish flopping on the ground in the sun.
One corner of the building damaged causes a complete collapse? Buildings 4, 5, and 6 practically had the cement fully sandblasted of their steel frames in the explosions, and still stood.
Plus, it requires explosive force to send debris 300 yards into another building to damage (7) so, as you pictured. Also, John Kerry and Silverstein both confessed that Building 7 was controlled demolition, then retracted their statements when they couldn't explain the timeline of when it could have been arranged (unless there was prior knowledge).
The films are listed, the readers can see expert demolition testimony and comparative photos.
They can see the real photos of the Pentagon that lack a plane or a big enough hole to hide one.
They can see how you're lying with the intention to deceive.
Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth:
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Pilots for 9/11 Truth:
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
Now shoo.
"Attacking typos?"
Thanks for the explanation. You should be much more careful if you are going to have this conversation.
"I hear a fish flopping on the ground in the sun."
I hear a Logical Fallacy called a "Red Herring" coming up. See below. I also note that you ignored my counters to several other points you made.
"One corner of the building damaged causes a complete collapse?"
Along with fire. *You* said the building was "largely untouched". Now we know that is BS, and the damage could only be described as "massive".
"Buildings 4, 5, and 6 practically had the cement fully sandblasted of their steel frames in the explosions, and still stood."
Above is the Red Herring. In discussing the collapse sequence of WTC7, damage to other buildings that didn't collapse is irrelevant. Those buildings were much smaller, had completely different designs, and had fires of a different nature, if indeed they had any fire.
"Plus, it requires explosive force to send debris 300 yards into another building"
Utter nonsense. It requires force, period. There is *tremendous* potential energy in the weight of thousands of tons of steel lifted high above the surface of Manhattan.
"Also, John Kerry and Silverstein both confessed that Building 7 was controlled demolition,"
Total BS. John Kerry has absolutely no standing in the discussion. Silverstein never admitted to any controlled demolition of the building:
http://911myths.com/html/wtc7_pulled.html
"The films are listed, the readers can see expert demolition testimony and comparative photos."
The issue regarding videos specifically was around the speed of the fall. A proper analysis would be written in a text format. You don't have that. BTW, what is the name of "demolition expert" who thinks this was wired up ahead of time?
"They can see the real photos of the Pentagon that lack a plane or a big enough hole to hide one."
Dude, this is worse than relying on Loose Change. The isea that there was no airliner at the Pentagon is not widely beleived by most *ahem*, "serious" truthers. You are obviously new to this.
"Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth:
http://www.ae911truth.org/"
Of the signatories associated with this thoroughly debunked organization, who would be your very best example of one who actually has experience in the field with designing high rise skyscrapers or specific knowledge of the forensics associated with building collapses?
"Pilots for 9/11 Truth:
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/"
Pilots know squat about high-rise buildings.
"Now shoo."
LOL! Still here, waiting for your responses to everything above and the previous stuff you chose to leave alone for some reason.
Explain how gravity goes sideways.
You can't recognize freefall speed and demolitions?
No, you're a PNAC shill, and I'm allowing you to waste my time. You're very duty is to obfuscate, and I don't expect you to concede to reality.
Again, above are three excellent documentaries for any CommonDreams reader to watch, and compare to the things said by you and me in our discussions. There are two excellent sites by architects and engineers who DO know about buildings, and by pilots who DO know about aircraft, aircraft wreckage, and the response abilities of air defense.
Have the last post for whatever value it is to your ego, your content and references are distortions of the facts and of the laws of nature. Your method is to attack me, those I've cited, and people I haven't even quoted or cited. You make obvious distortions, such as yes, building 7 WAS a very different construction than 4, 5, and 6: it was far more sturdy(!), your belief that the downward force of gravity causes lateral ejecta of intense power, your belief that the WTC towers were constructed of aluminum (they were thinly coated only) and that fire can create molten metal hotter than the fire itself (NASA satellite thermal imagery), your belief that people in the holes made by the plane were hundreds of yards away from the fires made by the planes.
Simply: you lie. You do not deserve any more of my time. So have at it with your insults, make some nasty last post. The truth will rise, despite you.
-t.
"Explain how gravity goes sideways."
LOL! We should show this to your professors at University of New Mexico!
When a component of a column fails, it will fall in the direction where there is the *least* resistance. The *greatest* resistance to movement would be from directly below, due to the presense of the rest of the as yet intact column we find there. Movement inwards is also unlikely, due to any intact trusses that would resist movement in that direction. Thus, the debris falls in the direction of *least* resistance, down and away from the center of the building, just as we see in the videos. Got that?
"You can't recognize freefall speed and demolitions?"
From a video, you must analyze it frame by frame to recognize freefall speed, and then show your work.
"No, you're a PNAC shill,"
Another logical fallacy, species "Ad Hominem". Even if true, the argument is false because it ignores the actual discussion on the table. The arguer is not the argument.
"There are two excellent sites by architects and engineers who DO know about buildings,"
You failed to note a single signatory at that site that has relevant field experience.
"Have the last post"
Translation: You are completely unprepared for this discussion and have lost.
"Your method is to attack me,"
No, I have attacked your *statements*. *You* are the one calling me a PNAC shill, and you started with this tactic early on. How shamefully hypocritical of you.
"building 7 WAS a very different construction than 4, 5, and 6"
Glad we agree, and you can therefore see then that discussing what happened to 4, 5, and 6 is irrelevant, when the subject is the collapse of WTC7.
"it was far more sturdy(!),"
Is "sturdy" a physics term? What does this even mean? It's like saying the towers were designed to resist collisions by airplanes. What kind of collisions? Collisions involving nearly full speed, or speeds more in keeping with a craft near the take off and landing phase?
"your belief that the downward force of gravity causes lateral ejecta of intense power"
Covered above.
"your belief that the WTC towers were constructed of aluminum"
I never said that. I merely said there is still no evidence of molten steel at the site, and that any molten metal someone may have seen might be aluminum.
"the holes made by the plane were hundreds of yards away from the fires made by the planes."
You don't read very well, I see this yet again. That distance was a reference to the position of the *photographer*.
"Simply: you lie."
What is your very best example of something I said that is a lie?
"You do not deserve any more of my time."
Yes, no one should spend so much time getting their butt so soundly kicked. I urge you to stop posting, unless you want to actually engage the topics in an honest manner.
"So, this fire that an NYFD firefighter stood next to and declared, "Two hoses can knock it out," "
Here is a step by step demonstration as to how shameless troothers take a comment by the above dead firefighter completely out of context:
http://www.debunking911.com/fire.htm
Try reading the Eagar and Musso report also, MIT experts, but I suspect you are far too narrow minded to even consider the other side. You prefer a venue like youtube to structual experts from MIT. You must be proud of your intellual prowess!
Yes, after studying physics and chemistry at the University of New Mexico, which is good enough to feed Philips Laboratory at Kirtland Airforce Base, I am.
Then they should have told you what the term "molten" means.
You're correct that I misused molten metal in that statement.
The fact is there WAS molten metal at the sight, and there should not have been, and it's presence is not explained by the 'reverse engineered' Commission Report.
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
"The fact is there WAS molten metal at the sight,"
Aluminum maybe. Not steel. Aluminum melts at much lower temperatures. No evidence of molten steel.
Paul Siemering
I seem to remember when we first learned about these kidnappings- for-torture (lets call things by their real names) that everyone was outraged, except maybe fox news. what happened? is it possible
that cheney brought the whole country with him over to the dark side?
I refuse to believe it. kidnapping and torture are nasty sci-fi monsters. there is no place for them in a u.s. struggling to regain its balance after the 8 year horror show we've been through. We did throw the rascals out. now its time for the horse they rode in on to leave too.
Nobody threw any rascals out. We changed from one CFR marionette to another. That's all. Business (and war crimes) as usual.
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
I second the commendation of SouixRpse by Cygnus. Besides the last comment (there is teaching potential there alright!) what particularly delights me is the admirable lack of attention to other posters who defend the indefensible. It is not a matter of not addressing some pertinent points. It is however a criminal matter. It is obvious that the attention seeking show offs who contrive to deceive and confuse, are squirming in a shallow pool of filth. They lack moral and ethical valuation among other things, at best. It is an entirely shameful attempt for supposed civilised human beings to have anything other than absolute disgust at the behaviour of the power elites. Extraordinary rendition, lying to other diplomatic bodies abroad, many of whom complied in these covert criminal activities that tortured and murdered innocent persons known and unknown? It is a Pandora's box of capital proportions in depravity. And where is Justice?
One more thing! I nearly keeled over with laughter at the idea that 24 is somebody's idea of educational. It is, only in the way of studying propoganda. After a short appraisal, it is junk food, not worth poisoning ourselves more toxic fumes is it?
Anyway these pathetic attempts to influence debate on behalf of major criminal conspiracies is unworthy of further comment by anyone with a conscience that is still alive and well. But the comment I liked best was the warm reminder '.......nation (there are many good people in it)from itself'.