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The L.A. Times, Obama & Renditions
Other commitments prevented me from writing today (in particular, I finalized the proposal and outline for my next book, an event that prompts great joyousness). But numerous people have emailed all day, and otherwise expressed concern, about this Los Angeles Times article from yesterday that claims -- citing anonymous "current and former U.S. intelligence officials" -- that the Obama administration has preserved and continued the Bush administration's "rendition" program that created so much (justifiable) outrage around the world.
The L.A. Times article is wildly exaggerated and plainly inaccurate. Harper's Scott Horton and The Washington Monthly's Hilzoy have typically thorough explanations as to why that is the case. Anyone with any doubts should read both of their commentaries. Suffice to say, the objections to the Bush "extraordinary rendition" program were that "rendered" individuals were abducted and then either (a) sent to countries where they would likely be tortured and/or (b) disappeared into secret U.S. camps ("black sites") or sent to Guantanamo and accorded no legal process of any kind. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Obama will continue any of that and, as Hilzoy documents, there is ample basis to believe he will not. Unfortunately, I don't have the time today to dissect the Times' claims in detail, but Horton and Hilzoy both say virtually everything that should be said on the topic.
I do, though, want to add two brief points:
First, it is very important to keep in mind that there are numerous factions with a very compelling interest in claiming that the Obama administration is preserving and continuing the most extreme Bush "counter-terrorism" policies, regardless of whether or not it's true:
(1) Bush followers eager to claim that their leader has been vindicated because Obama is replicating his policies;
(2) People who have long argued that there is no difference between the parties, that "the system" is irrevocably corrupted, and that Obama will change nothing, who are eager to claim that their "no-difference" worldview has already been vindicated by the 11-day old administration ("See! After 11 days, it's proven that Obama is no different than Bush, just as we've been saying");
(3) Members of the intelligence community who do not want any new limits imposed on their activities and thus, hiding behind anonymity, use these leaks to pressure Obama not to impose them ("intelligence officials say that Obama is just pretending to change these policies in order to fool/placate the Left, but he knows and believes we urgently need these powers to keep the U.S. safe and he will therefore keep them in place"); and,
(4) Establishment media figures, eager to depict Obama as supportive of, rather than hostile to, prevailing policies, because they spent the last eight years supporting and enabling those policies as integral members of the establishment and do not want Obama's election to be perceived as a repudiation of that establishment and its various behaviors.
I want to be clear: none of this is to say that Obama won't continue many of the worst Bush policies. He very well might (even in the case of rendition) and, in other cases, he probably will. Vigilance in this regard is absolutely required. The point here is that there are all sorts of groups eager to claim that Obama has already decided to embrace Bush policies before there is any actual evidence that he has done so, or -- as here -- even when there is evidence that he hasn't. For that reason, these reports about what Obama "intends" to do ought to be taken with a huge dose of skepticism, especially where, as here, it is fed to uninformed, gullible reporters by anonymous intelligence operatives.
As I find myself repeating quite often, it makes no sense to attack (or praise) Obama for predicted actions. It's possible that the group I referenced in item (2) above may turn out to be right, or it's possible that those who see Obama as some transcendent, transformative change agent will be. I doubt either of those two extremes will be vindicated, but what should determine one's judgment on that question is what Obama actually does, not what anonymous reports claim he "intends" to do. Those who reflexively criticize every Obama action because they predicted long ago that he would be the same as Bush and want that prediction to be vindicated are but the opposite side of the same irrational coin as those who find ways to justify everything Obama does because they long ago placed the type of faith in him that no political leader should ever enjoy.
Second, I have a question for those who believe that rendition, in all cases (even when it's not used to disappear individuals or send individuals to countries where they will be tortured), is inappropriate and wrong:
Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that: (a) the U.S. learns exactly where Osama bin Laden is located in Pakistan; (b) there is ample evidence that bin Laden (i) perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and (ii) is in the advanced stages of planning new imminent attacks on the U.S.; and (c) the Pakistani Government is either unwilling or unable to apprehend bin Laden in order to extradite him to the U.S. for trial. Further suppose that efforts to compel the Pakistanis to do so through the U.N. are blocked (because, say, China or Russia vetoes any actions).
What, if anything, is the U.S. (under current facts) permitted to do about Osama bin Laden, who -- we're assuming for purposes of these discussions -- clearly perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and is in the process of plotting new attacks? As far as I can tell, the options would be: (a) drop a bomb on him and kill him with no due process; (b) enter Pakistan, apprehend him, and bring him to the U.S. for a trial (i.e., rendition); or (c) do nothing, and just leave him be.
Those who are arguing that rendition is illegitimate in all cases (rather than in the torture-enabling and disappearance-causing forms used by Bush) have the obligation to answer that question specifically (and the same question would pertain to a common criminal -- say, a mass murderer -- who flees the U.S. to a country which refuses to comply with its extradition obligations to send him to the U.S. for trial).
UPDATE: One other point: the claim is often made that there was nothing new about the Bush administration's "extraordinary rendition" program because they did nothing that the Clinton administration, which pioneered the program, didn't also do. The record in this regard is unclear in several respects. Clearly, nothing even remotely approaching the scope of the Bush administration's program was attempted before 2001, and there's no evidence, at least that I'm aware of, that any abducted individuals were simply "disappeared" to American-run facilities.
But as The New Yorker's Jane Mayer documented, the U.S. most certainly did abduct and "render" people to torturing countries under the Clinton administration. Here's but on example she describes:
On September 13, 1995, U.S. agents helped kidnap Talaat Fouad Qassem, one of Egypt's most wanted terrorists, in Croatia. Qassem had fled to Europe after being linked by Egypt to the assassination of Sadat; he had been sentenced to death in absentia. Croatian police seized Qassem in Zagreb and handed him over to U.S. agents, who interrogated him aboard a ship cruising the Adriatic Sea and then took him back to Egypt. Once there, Qassem disappeared. There is no record that he was put on trial. Hossam el-Hamalawy, an Egyptian journalist who covers human-rights issues, said, "We believe he was executed."
She also details the 1998 abduction of numerous individuals in a joint operation by the C.I.A. and Albanian government:
Over the next few months, according to the Journal, Albanian security forces, working with U.S. agents, killed one suspect and captured Attiya and four others. These men were bound, blindfolded, and taken to an abandoned airbase, then flown by jet to Cairo for interrogation. Attiya later alleged that he suffered electrical shocks to his genitals, was hung from his limbs, and was kept in a cell in filthy water up to his knees. Two other suspects, who had been sentenced to death in absentia, were hanged.
Yet in those cases, Mayer suggests (citing CIA agent Michael Scheuer, who designed the rendition program) that there was legal process underlying the abductions, as they had all been convicted of serious crimes, mostly in abstentia. By contrast, few if any of the individuals "rendered" during the Bush years were convicted of anything. She also cites claims that there were numerous safeguards to ensure no innocent person was "rendered" -- safeguards which disappeared during the Bush years. It's difficult to assess how valid those claims are.
Critically, Richard Clarke, the whistle-blowing terrorism expert in both the Clinton and Bush administrations, in his 2004 book Against All Enemies, conveyed an obviously disturbing scene that he says took place in the 1993 (.pdf - p. 27):
As always, it's worth underscoring that while the blatant disregard for, and systematic violations of, international norms was far worse in the Bush years than ever before, it hardly began there.
- Posted in
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32 Comments so far
Show AllPerhaps Obama got some bad press on rendition, but one replication of the Bush Administration and perhaps most egregious is that Obama is a courtier of the Coal industry. Whatever sustainable solutions not corrupted by greed that makes it into a concrete plan followed by implementation will be more than offset by Coal and Oil. While I support a comprehensive energy solution Coal ought not be included and it should immediately by phased down and eliminated as soon as other sustainable sources hit the energy grid. But replication does not stop with energy, but I question the continued commitment by Obama to a war in the Afgan republic and a covert war in Pakistan - Obama recently hit civilian targets and killed women and children. I don't think we need any more apologetics for Obama and his corrupt appointments like Daschle.
"current and former U.S. intelligence officials"
George Tenet, Pee Wee Herman, Howdy Doodie, James Bond, Charo, Gomer Pyle, Guy Lombardo, Freddy Blassie . . . a truly distinguished lot.
Thank you Glen, I was arguing this same point yesterday and all anyone could do was tell me I watch too much 24 (best show on TV!). But you made the point I was trying to make much more clearly. I'm glad to see we're on the same page.
There's nothing wrong with extraordinary rendition when the power is not abused.
The same argument should be made for keeping our surveillance programs.
What many of the comments here on CD won't admit is that the threat of terrorism is real. We need to give Obama the authority to use surveillance and rendition to prevent future attacks, or else we are tying his hands behind his back, then telling him to protect us.
I keep telling people to remember that Obama is not Bush, and while we couldn't trust Bush, we can trust Obama.
Great article, Mr. Greenwald. Thank you. You tell it like it is!
GOOO-OOOOBAMA!!!
GOOOO??
What if the Palestinian Government read your comments on CD over the past few days and decided you were a threat to their security.
So they sneak a couple agents inside the country and whisk you away to some unknown region where you are treated justly (by their standards, not yours).
Is rendition okay only when the United States does it?
Or can every country engage in it at the discretion of their own legal system?
If I was a threat to Palestinian security you might have a point, but I'm not, so you don't. No one is suggesting Obama use rendition against innocent people.
But according to Palestinian legal experts they may consider you a threat.
You seem to see the world from an America only perspective.
If Obama grants himself the power to continue renditions while obeying rules he himself writes saying he's making it legal then why can't any other head of state do the same thing?
I bet there are a lot of people in the Middle East who consider the CEO's of our oil companies terrorists. Or the heads of our Defense companies.
They could probably make a good case that these individuals were partly responsible for the terror and destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan and are planning to do the same in Iran and Pakistan.
So why can't they snatch then rendition them too in order to stop their next act of terrorism?
Your American exceptionalism (which tens of millions of Americans believe in) is a major cause of so many of our problems.
We need to strengthen the U.N. and other international organizations to solve our problems, We also need to respect the international treaties we've signed.
When we do this almost all of our problems will cure themselves.
"here on CD won't admit is that the threat of terrorism is real."
I never get that impression.
But some might say that peanut allergies kill more people in the US than terrorism, so where is the "war on peanuts"?
Some other might say that 400,000 americans die every year from heart disease yet we spend 4,000 times as much to fight terrorism.
I think you ,however, are a coward that sees threats everywhere and buys into the fear that most politicians peddle while your fellow citizens go without housing, food, or healthcare because funds are diverted towards imperialism and KGB type interrogation practices.
It's about the threat, not the body count.
911 could have been 1000 times worse.
Glenn is my blogger of the year for 2008 but I gotta disagree with him on this issue:
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Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that: (a) the U.S. learns exactly where Osama bin Laden is located in Pakistan; (b) there is ample evidence that bin Laden (i) perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and (ii) is in the advanced stages of planning new imminent attacks on the U.S.; and (c) the Pakistani Government is either unwilling or unable to apprehend bin Laden in order to extradite him to the U.S. for trial. Further suppose that efforts to compel the Pakistanis to do so through the U.N. are blocked (because, say, China or Russia vetoes any actions).
-----------
If all those conditions align yet the only option remaining is rendition then it's not rendition that needs to be considered. What needs to be understood is why every other option is a no-go in the light of overwhelming evidence and urgency to act.
Rather than legalize rendition which will ultimately be abused (if not by Obama then by Jeb Bush when he's installed in 2012) lets correct the processes in the U.N. Or help to strengthen Pakistanti law enforcement.
I don't want to give a tool, rendition, to any U.S. President.
It's too easy to abuse.
Yes, the processes in the UN need to be corrected.
But we need to only consider *legal* means to defend our nation.
We (the US govt.) can now use existing laws to defend ourselves using diplomacy (with extradition requests) and even force, IF we have evidence that more attacks are being planned from within another nation, AND we invoke Article 51.
>>Article 51
of the Charter of the United Nations
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security. >>
The US can attack or capture planners of attacks in another nation *legally* if Article 51 is invoked.
That would force the UNSC to deal OBL and his alleged sanctuary in Pakistan.
Of course, the US can't do acts that would, by intent or context, harm or kill civilians, because those acts would be terrorist acts. Why? Because of the UN operating definition of terrorism, as follows:
The report of the Secretary-General’s High-level Panel on Threats, Challenges, and Change included a working definition of terrorism as:
“any action, in addition to actions already specified by the existing conventions on aspects of terrorism, the Geneva Conventions and Security Council Resolution 1566 (2004), that is intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants, when the purpose of such act, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population, or to compel a Government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act.”
Implementation of the UN Global Counterterrorism Strategy
42nd Conference on the United Nations of the Next Decade
Sponsored by The Stanley Foundation
June 8-13, 2007
The Inn at Perry Cabin, St. Michaels, Maryland
p. 164
www.stanleyfoundation.org/publications/report/UNND807.pdf
Obama has already decided to embrace Bush policies before there is any actual evidence that he has done so,
---------------
Unfortunately Glenn, this is not accurate.
Obama ordered an illegal attack on Pakistan using a drone that killed 18 "suspected militants" (i.e. human beings).
This is prime center-cut Bush policy.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1222/p99s01-duts.html
How do you know it was illegal?
How do you know Obama didn't have Pakistan's approval for the attack?
Obama promised to take action on Pakistan numerous times during the debates. We knew that when we voted for him.
Fighting radical extremists who wish to kill Americans isn't a "Bush policy" it's just the right policy.
From Paul Craig Roberts at Counterpunch...
"...Obama has retained the Republican warmongers in the Pentagon, and the US continues to illegally bomb Pakistan and to murder its civilians. At the World Economic Forum at Davos this week, Pakistan’s prime minister, Y. R. Gilani, said that the American attacks on Pakistan are counterproductive and done without Pakistan’s permission. In an interview with CNN, Gilani said: “I want to put on record that we do not have any agreement between the government of the United States and the government of Pakistan.”
Full and unedited:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01292009.html
If rendition is soooooo legal - lets do trial renditions of all those who advocate(d) the practice and see what happens. BTW, that means sending them to the same premises and inflicting the same 'techniques'.
Then, and only then, should they be allowed to OK renditions (that is, if they return)
But I could be wrong !
P.S. Just for laughs, let's do Cheney, Bush, Tenet, and. Rumsfeld first
"Those who reflexively criticize every Obama action because they predicted long ago that he would be the same as Bush and want that prediction to be vindicated are but the opposite side of the same irrational coin..."
How much did AIPAC pay Mr. Greenwald to write this article? Our pessimism of O'Bama is based on his endorsement by AIPAC, and his endorsement by the elite establishment in general. And his service to the elite establishment as senator. Remember all the blank checks?
Mr. Greenwald may have forgotten that the elites' endorsements of public servants have negative consequences for the people. Or maybe he's on the take. Either way he isn't doing the people any favor with articles such as this. Maybe he can suggest that the people place their hopes in their very own selves instead of in agents of the elite establishment.
Do you see Jews behind every problem in the world today?
Are you really Mel Gibson?
Joey, here's where you're going wrong.
AIPAC does not equal or represent all Jews anymore than Far Right Republicans equal or represent all Americans.
So please stop accusing people of antisemitism for opposing Far Right Zionists.
And for the record, all Jews are not Zionists. A Zionist is one who believes they are entitled by God to that narrow strip of land on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea.
Meet Marco: Mr. Pro-diaspora.
Meet Joey: Mr. Get off our land because God said so.
One idiotic comment deserves another.
You should go to salon dot com and read the articles Glenn has written about the Israeli / Palestinian war. (Search his December through February logs).
I think once you do this you'll see he's taken great pains to be extraordinarily fair in his writings.
There's no need to make ungrounded accusations against one of the few writers with ethics.
.
How much did AIPAC pay Mr. Greenwald? Get real. You don't like his take on this so you accuse him of being compromised? Glen is one of a few pundits who has shown time and again that he cannot be influenced or compromised. He is a paragon of principle so rare these days. Disagree with him if you will, but you couldn't be more wrong about him.
As for Obama's endorsement of AIPAC, know this. Had Obama critized AIPAC or Israel during the campaign, he would NOT be president, period. He would be on the side lines with Ralph Nader and Cynthia McKinney and our country would be in the hands of someone not quite as principled and with no vision. Unfortunately, to play politics in the big time these days one must show obeisance to AIPAC. Hopefully this will change someday soon. And I think we should watch for Obama making AIPAC unhappy in the coming years.
As for Obama's collaboration with the establishment, if you have been paying attention and are not an incorrigible cynic, you would have seen that Obama's first days in office have been a triumph. You guys are missing it because you expect and demand that he bang a hard left. Ain't gonna happen, couldn't happen, even if Ralph were in office. Democracy means comprimise. He is working with the existing establishment because he needs them to move forward. Buck the system too much and it bucks you.
As for the legions of cynics who saw Obama's cabinet picks as a sure sign that he is nothing more than the usual establishment shill, sorry to disappoint. Obama has already has stood strongly against the counsel of one of his cabinet, Secretary of Defense Gates on the Iraq withdrawal. This is proof of the validity of his theory of the "Team of Rivals" where you surround yourself with experienced establishment people who may even be your rival, to gain the support, counsel and cooperation of the establishment. Very wise.
Compromise and democracy too slow and unsatisfying for you? We have two choices: either change the system from within, a slow and often disappointing process. Or war and revolution and sorry, you need a serious and sympathetic groundswell of support for that AND you may end up with something far worse.
Osama bin Laden responsible for 9/11? Where is the evidence? Oh, everyone is relying on what they have been told by our trustworthy media and the Bush admin. Not the smartest thing to be doing.
Do you question why some claim Bush orchestrated 9/11 without any evidence? I doubt it, you believe what you choose to believe , facts be damned.
Glenn Greenwald refers readers to two writers, one of whom is Scott Horton of Harpers Mag., linking to one of his articles, one of Feb 2, and I wonder about this, for wherein GG writes "UPDATE: One other point: the claim is often made that there was nothing new about the Bush administration's "extraordinary rendition" program because they did nothing that the Clinton administration, which pioneered the program, didn't also do", this is contrary to what Horton writes about who started "extraordinary renditions", namely Pres. GW Bush, aka Bush Jr, aka U.S. Pres. no 43. Horton also says that the prior kind of renditioning, which he refers to as being apparently non-extraordinary, began under either Pres. Bush Sr and maybe even Pres. Reagan.
So, why does GG claim that Horton is one of two writers who's "typically thorough explanations as to why that is the case", the case being that the LAT is mistaken regarding what the Pres. Obama administration plans to do, and not, when GG clearly doesn't really think that Horton's expert on the history of renditioning practices by the U.S. govt? It may not really matter, that is, the two aspects may be such that GG's right about who "pioneered" "extraordinary renditioning", leaving that Horton's wrong on this point; and thn Horton's right about the LAT article on Obama. But I wonder why the reference to someone GG clearly disgrees with on one important point that's related and while claiming that the person he disgrees with is right on the LAT article publishing evidently real but bogus views or claims.
GG seems to be right about the Clinton administration having employed "extraordinary renditioning", if what he uses for evidence of this is indeed tru.
I didn't read the Washington Monthly piece by Hilzoy and don't plan to do so. Instead, I'll just wait to see what other people whose articles I read and who I find to do good analysis and/or reporting, so far, have to say.
And given Obama's sick siding with the diabolically sociopathic Israeli govt's leadership, really both the political and military leaderships, and his promises of maintaining a criminal war on Afghanistan, while escalating in Pakistan, or rather escalating in both countries, these two elements alon already tell us not to expect more than little noteworthy good of the Pres. Obama administration.
Also, while he may curb "extraordinary renditioning", this is only one crime in the many crimes of the supreme international crimes of U.S. wars of aggression on a number of countries, including being complicit, to say the least of what it is, in the Israeli govt's wars of aggression in the Middle East. Stop the supreme, and the lesser or included crimes will also stop.
Okay, somebody help me out.
I want to oppose torture. Period. I don't want the US torturing anyone at all.
But I can't stop thinking about GG's hypothetical question:
"Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that: (a) the U.S. learns exactly where Osama bin Laden is located in Pakistan; (b) there is ample evidence that bin Laden (i) perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and (ii) is in the advanced stages of planning new imminent attacks on the U.S.; and (c) the Pakistani Government is either unwilling or unable to apprehend bin Laden in order to extradite him to the U.S. for trial. Further suppose that efforts to compel the Pakistanis to do so through the U.N. are blocked (because, say, China or Russia vetoes any actions).
What, if anything, is the U.S. (under current facts) permitted to do about Osama bin Laden, who -- we're assuming for purposes of these discussions -- clearly perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and is in the process of plotting new attacks? As far as I can tell, the options would be: (a) drop a bomb on him and kill him with no due process; (b) enter Pakistan, apprehend him, and bring him to the U.S. for a trial (i.e., rendition); or (c) do nothing, and just leave him be."
I have to ask (because I don't have an answer) why couldn't this type argument be used to justify torture? I'd like to say that torture should never be used. But I have to admit, GG's argument for rendition is also a model argument for allowing torture in a scenario where we face an imminent threat. Maybe someone else could point out why it should never be used EVEN IF it would save thousands (hundreds of thousands or possibly millions) of people's lives. But I can't, I'm (sadly) stumped.
The "EVEN if" is a false premise since there is no proof that torture gains useful information and plenty that the victim of torture is willing to say whatever he/she thinks the torturer wants him/her to say so as to avoid further torture.
As vulgar as it sounds, many of us would "confess" our undying love for Dick Cheney complete with details of our romantic fantasies if we thought that by doing so we would avoid torture.
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185 Organizations and Individuals Write PM to Repatriate Omar Khadr
Tuesday, February 03, 2009 9:25 am
February 3rd, 2009
The Right Honourable Stephen Harper
Prime Minister of Canada
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A2
Dear Prime Minister Harper,
It was with grave concern and disappointment that we citizens of conscience, scholars, Imams, community leaders, lawyers, academics, activists and human rights and civil liberties organizations, received the news regarding your continuing refusal to intervene on behalf of Omar Khadr, the last western citizen still imprisoned in Guantánamo Bay. We are writing to urge you to reconsider that position and immediately take action to request that Omar Khadr be repatriated to Canada. The significant changes in US policy with respect to Guantánamo Bay, announced last week by President Obama, offer the Canadian government a remarkable opportunity to take action to defend Omar Khadr’s rights. Silence is no longer an option.
We believe that your inaction with regards to this important case, compared to your active involvement in other cases (such as the repatriation of Brenda Martin from Mexico), has been, rightly or wrongly, interpreted by the Muslim community as indicative that your government considers Canadian Muslims to be second-class citizens. ...
http://www.caircan.ca/ann_more.php?id=3024_0_9_0_C
-----------------
Some of the names of signatories include Sasha Trudeau (son of former Prime Minister), Naomi Klein, her father-in-law Stephen Lewis and brother Seth, Independent Jewish Voices (Canada), NION – Not In Our Name, Jewish Voices Opposing Zionism, along with various Muslim groups.
"The "EVEN if" is a false premise since there is no proof that torture gains useful information and plenty that the victim of torture is willing to say whatever he/she thinks the torturer wants him/her to say so as to avoid further torture."
I understand that is a common argument. But I can think of many instances when we would be able to determine if the prisoner was lying. For example, if someone was being tortured in order to reveal the location of a bomb. If the information they gave was false, we would find out right away, and they would still be in our custody. Also, keep in mind people like myself, I would easily break under torture, and wouldn't risk lying for fear of the consequences. I think your argument is a good reason why torture shouldn't be commonplace, but not why it shouldn't be used in extreme situations.
So you want to believe that Obama would not carry out renditions of terrorists like Bush did.
Sorry, this is EXACTLY what Obama will do. You know why? Because he knows something about this war on terror that you DO NOT know.
He changed his tune the day after Election Day, when he had a nice chat with then-President Bush.
It's no surprise that Obama okay'd renditions. The surprise is that it took him so long.
He probably saw that map of Washington, D.C. with a big red arrow pointed at the White House and Arabic writing on it that said, "Bomb here".
When your home is threatened with terrorism, you'll want these thugs off the street and held someplace too. The rest of the world needs to be kept safe from these people.
It's really nice to believe you can be more moral than God and hate war and all that, but it's just not realistic, given the terrorists that are hell-bent on killing us.
Obama talks to you people out of both sides of his mouth. When are you going to get that? He tells you what you want to hear, then he does what he needs to do.
You must have found the George W Bush presidency very refreshing, since he did not try too hard to hide his flouting of the law - he did it right out in the open and was proud of it.
Sarcasm aside, I'm not the complete cynic you are nor am I a gullible fool. Presidents can't completely hoodwink the public, it comes out one way or the other.
I couldn't disagree more with your assertion that it is necessary to toss aside our principles when the going gets tough. If we somehow made it through the cataclysm of WWII without torture, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492.html, we can do it in this one. While we MIGHT get short term gain, in the long run it hurts us.
China has the 3 Gorges Dam; we have the 3 Damn Georges.
It is the nature of power to be abusable, and the nature of people who seek power to abuse it, and eventually the power always gets abused. We started with George Washington, who refused monarchal powers but tolerated and engaged in slavery and genocide, and we've ended up with conservative governmental mission creep that so far has continued for over 200 years, leading to another George accumulating such meta-monarchal powers that George III could never have dreamed of the power. The power's not going away by itself and to simply trust those who have it, to give it up or not abuse it, without any compulsion to do so, is naive to the point of being completely out of touch with reality.
If the US had an actual good case against a person in another country,(as opposed to rumor and innuendo and dubious information gotten from torture), and that country refused to cooperate by arresting and extraditing the accused, then the US would have at its disposal all the means of the international system of justice, as well as whatever other means--trade sanctions, treaties, bribes, and promises, for example--it could perform itself. It would also have the right to try to convince other countries to go along with those sanctions and other means.
Of course this would be largely ineffective, largely because the US, the current world trend setter in such things, has consistently demonstrated its enthusiastic willingness to ignore morality and the law, for example, by practicing illegal kidnappings, torture and extended detentions without providing evidence. Other countries find this a perfect excuse for ignoring the law themselves, and letting other countries ignore it too, and thus we have international, systemic, mission creep leading to an ineffective system of international justice that can't satisfy our desire to punish those who have offended it. So our answer to that is to do more illegal and immoral things? Gosh, how smart is that?