Women Are Not “Pork”
Responding to President Obama's request, House Democrats cut a provision from the stimulus package that would expand contraceptive family planning for Medicaid patients-usually poor women and girls.
Why did this happen?
For years, reproductive justice activists have argued that the religious right's real agenda is not just to eliminate abortion, but to end the historic rupture between sex and reproduction that took place in the 20th century.
I understand why that rupture is unsettling. Ironically, I was on my way to lecture about Margaret Sanger in my history course at UC Berkeley when I heard the news. Sanger was vilified for wanting to give women the choice of when or whether to bear children. In short, she challenged all of human history by proposing an historic rupture between sexuality and the goal of reproduction. But if reproduction ceased to be the goal, sexuality might become yoked to pleasure.
That is the legacy the religious right has fought against, and it's that agenda that cut funding for family planning.
House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) said, "How you can spend hundreds of millions of dollars on contraceptives? How does that stimulate the economy?"
Well, here's the answer. Consider the teenage girl who's sexually active. What happens to the economy when she bears a child without the means to support it? Conversely, what happens when she finishes her education, enters the labor force, earns a salary, and pays taxes? Do we want an unemployed poor woman to have more children than she can already feed, or do we want her to have access to contraception, get her life back on track, and hopefully find work instead of raising another child she cannot afford at this time?
The Congressional Budget Office also reported that by the third year of implementation, the measure would actually save $200 million over five years by preventing unwanted pregnancies and avoiding the Medicaid cost of delivering and then caring for these babies. The same CBO report found the House version of the stimulus would have a "noticeable impact on economic growth and employment in the next few years, with much of the mandatory spending for Medicaid and other programs likely to occur in the next 19 to 20 months." During the first three years, the CBO report said, the cost and savings are negligible.
This decision was an unnecessary political capitulation to Republicans. According to the AP and the Austin American-Statesman, the president was "courting Republican critics of the legislation" who had argued that contraception is not about stimulus or growth. Unfortunately, too many people have uncritically accepted that argument. But many others have noted that the package is filled with provisions for health care, which certainly includes family planning. Many other provisions, moreover, are also not growth-oriented, and yet it was poor women's bodies that Democrats bartered for the approval and votes from Republicans that they don't need and will seldom get.
That same morning, New York Times columnist Bob Herbert asked "Why anyone listens to [Republicans]?" Why, indeed. They want the Democrats to fail. They want the new president to fail. And so they described women's bodies as "pork" and asked that the funding be cut for contraception.
Women's groups are legitimately outraged at what has happened. The Planned Parenthood Federation of America called the measure a "victim of misleading attacks and partisan politics." Mary Jane Gallagher, president of the National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association, said: "Family planners are devastated that President Obama and Congress have decided to take funding for critical family planning services out of the stimulus. Their willingness to abandon the millions of families across the country who are in need is devastating."
"The Medicaid Family Planning State Option fully belonged in the economic recovery package," said Marcia D. Greenberger, co-president of the National Women's Law Center. "The Republican leadership opposition to the provision shows how out of touch they are with what it takes to ensure the economic survival of working women and their families."
While Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) defended the measure as recently as last Sunday, President Barack Obama and Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA), chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, bowed to Republican pressure and agreed to drop the measure. And although the Senate has not yet voted, it's unlikely that funding for expanded family planning will be approved. In short, the Democrats decided it just wasn't worth fighting about. According to the Washington Wire, one House Democratic aide said, "It ended up being a distraction and it will be removed."
So, poor women who want reproductive health care and contraception are both "pork" and a "distraction." Is this the change we have dreamed about?
President Obama certainly believes in contraception for poor women and girls on Medicaid. He won the election, as he recently pointed out. He doesn't have to cave in to Republican demands to restrict women's choices and health care.
The best way he and Democrats can handle this terribly misguided decision is to pass legislation to fund expanded family planning as soon as possible, before half the population wakes up and realizes that once again, women have been treated as expendable, and that their bodies have been bartered for political expediency.
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140 Comments so far
Show AllThe primary achievement of feminism was to replace higher-paid mostly-male unionized workers, with low-paid non-union female workers. Also, a bunch of middle-class females, like Hillary Clinton, took the express to the top, "for the girls."
The primary achievement of feminism is to enlighten a male oriented society to the inequalities that exist in it insofar as womens rights are concerned. One of the byproducts of that struggle remains unequal pay for the same jobs.
Oh, and I have now read two of your posts and have yet to find any reason you post such nonsense..
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
LeeAnnG
Our society has a casual disregard for women. Note that it's unacceptable in any nominally polite society to use racial or ethnic epithets, but there's no stigma attached to calling men "pussies," "old ladies," or "girlie men" even in progressive circles. I've heard Jon Stewart refer to the "pussification of education," and I've watched TV shows in which actresses like Marlo Thomas speak lines like, "I'll give you this much; you've got balls."
Having balls is equated with being strong, having integrity, and being fearless. Being a pussy is equated with being weak, lacking integrity, and being fearful. (I've noticed that it's usually "having" balls and "being" a pussy. I'm not sure of the significance of that.) There's a current ad on TV for trucks. In it, a man is implicitly ridiculed as being less than a man (i.e. like a woman) for having a heated steering wheel and a manicure. Why is this more acceptable than a person being put down for (as an example) acting "black"?
In our culture, tomboys are cute, sissies are repugnant. Girls are given traditionally male names and that's acceptable. A boy with a girlish name is a target for ridicule.
It's no wonder women can be considered pork and irrelevant by legislators.
Sioux Rose
LEE ANN: Well-said. Your examples reveal the cult of Mars rules, what Nietschze referred to as the worship of the oily muscle. It graduates to warfare. In the military those effeminate castigations of men are intended to make them more manly by showing their prowess with weapons. There's even some jingle (perhaps some X marine in this thread can relate the exact words) that likens the gun to their dick, and analogizes their use of it to f--king. These gross sexist depictions sure render LOVE MAKING into a lost art!
Listen to my new radio show: Cindy Sheehan's Soapbox where we tackle important issues like this one:
www.CindySheehansSoapbox.com
Peace
Cindy
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to every one striking at the root" HD Thoreau
Sioux Rose
CINDY: You Phoenix rising bold lady! Congratulations on your newest "incarnation," and may the stars be with you! One way or another I'll figure out how to listen to your show! Bravo!
I'll second that. My best to you Cindy!
Hi Cindy,
Glad to see you again. I know you're probably even more disappointed about Obama than you were before his election but you're not alone. I don't know what it's going to take to fix this mess but if even San Francisco is electing pro-war fake "liberals" such as Nancy Pelosi and that city is supposed to be the most "liberal" and "progressive", oh boy it's gonna get worse. If you can, try running for her seat again in 2010 or even run in 2012 as US Senator against Barbara Boxer. Lou Dobbs had a point when wondered why are senators cannot be the type who come from backgrounds such as housewife, carpenters, masonry, etc ... instead of elitist backgrounds such as corporate trial lawyer.
I notice a lot of hate and division on this thread. Moreover, I notice a lot of posts unrelated to the article and a lot of them on same sex. And why is it that everyone keeps saying that only women are the biggest victims when in fact both sexes are equally hurt by these conservative policies ? If there was an article stressing the need for men's rights such as their fashion, sports they can play, or whatever looks odd, I'll bet the article would get 300+ angry replies making it look like certain things are for "women only" and the hate talks would get out of hand. Women would not be treated like "pork" if only society did not stomp on nice men and push them into tears for not being "manly enough" according to teh fascist standards. We all need to lay down our quarelling and start finding common ground somewhere or all these discussions will prove to be completely useless. Then again, who's gonna look at this thread one week from today let alone a month or even a year from today ?
Thursday morning my neocon boss/coworker was all wound up about the waste in the stimulus package, and this was one of his points. He had himself in such a lather, that (I guess) he didn't realize this part had been taken out. Then he went on about a "$40 billion global warming study", then told me I was uninformed and my vote for Obama ws a big mistake....
Reading some of the comments above, 30 years ago my very pretty cousin was shunned by her female coworkwers because they didn't want her stealing their boyfriends. It sounds like half of these women would be trying to date her nowadays.
"30 years ago my very pretty cousin was shunned by her female coworkwers because they didn't want her stealing their boyfriends. "
That kind of paranoia sure doesn't speak well of them.
abuelo-I'm not doubting or condemning the idea of sex for pleasure. I hope I don't come off that way. It just seems that most women want to be in love or be with a committed partner. I highly doubt that if we enacted universal birth control like we should that our society would be like the film "Caligula." Some people might become freer with their sexuality, but I doubt things would change for most people. And I don't think it has to do with "ownership" or anything like that. If anything it's about women's ownership of their own bodies. They don't want to feel like they are being used for sex, and the idea of "free love" teeters on that slippery slope. Is it love or lust? Are people giving to each other or using each other?
Maybe Michelle will hold out a little in solidarity with all the poor women who can't afford birth control and their only option is abstinence!
The democrats capitulated to the republicans even when they didnt have to.
And Schumer said they will keep reaching out.
If the parts were reversed....
On Israel. There is a bandwagon jumping when it comes to it-sure-people forget about Africa because they expect Africa to be a mess. but in Israel's case there are a few other factors.
One is that it pretends to be democratic and civilized--so the fact that the reverse is the case is galling.
They control Western media and take a huge amount of money out of US taxpayers and influence policy in Canada, Britian, Australia.
We dont really have to worry about Congo terrorists attacking us--but thanks to Israel, westerners are a target.
Israel has nukes and threatens to destroy many middle eastern countries.
And Israel censors the media here.
So its a much bigger problem-for such a tiny country.
befrgl
I agree with webber, but unfortunately it seems that the new guy has surrounded himself with israeli zionists. Even his first appointment...chief of staff for the "white" house....israeli citizen, ex israeli army, and son of one of the stern gang. Check it out... The first speech he gave, the day after he was selected to run for the dems.....was to swear his undying support .... at the aipac convention in washington. the next speaker that friday, 20 minutes later....swearing her undying support ..... Hillary....check it out....we're screwed~
His dad was actually a member of Irgun rather than the Stern Gang . . . but six of one, half dozen of the other, really.
Either way, quite unnerving.
What's all this ganging up on Obama all about? He's concentrating on trying to get a real stimulus bill passed, not on allowing more pork in the bill. A stimulus package is supposed to address the real economic needs of the people, not give pork to special interests. If you all want to deal with reproductive rights, another seperate bill will be forthcoming so just be patient.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Paul Siemering
well, i agree with the writer that contraceptives should be available for everyone, and it's a shame it was cut from this bill- especially disappointing after Obama lifted the gag rule.
now Margaret Sanger was a good women's rights activist, but she did not challenge "all of human history" by claiming the right to sex for pleasure. all First People have celebrated sex for pleasure, and it is reasonaable to assume our own ancestors did so during the first two hundred thousand years before "history" meaning before writing, before books, before bibles or any other holy books trumpeting the patriarchs ownership of women. Actually i think i can prove that Mother Nature did create sex as a gift for us to enjoy. Think about this: the female clitoris is the only organ in all of nature that has no purpose except for pleasure.
"Actually i think i can prove that Mother Nature did create sex as a gift for us to enjoy. Think about this: the female clitoris is the only organ in all of nature that has no purpose except for pleasure."
Amen!
Sioux Rose
And if property treated, it could give that pink energizer battery bunny quite a run for the money!
"Firstly, those condoms don't get made by themselves. Workers, who more than likely not need the jobs, are paid to make them. Would you rather give the money to some multi billionaire banker who spends the money on some expensive art by a dead painter to hang on his halls."
Very true. I hadn't thought of that.
"Secondly, sex is pleasurable. Especially in times of a bad economy, is cheap pleasure that the entire populace can have, not a good thing? It provides people with a distraction from the bad economy."
Well, lol, sex is great...if you can find it. Again, "free love" I think is rather a myth. If you have someone, great, but not everyone does.
"Well, lol, sex is great...if you can find it. Again, "free love" I think is rather a myth. If you have someone, great, but not everyone does."
LOL. The finding of it will take people's mind of the bad economy, no? :)
"Now that women no longer need men economically..."
I don't think that's true for all women. A lot of women are struggling, especially single moms, and many of them feel they have no choice but to shack up with men who mistreat them.
If we enacted living salaries, gave everyone a job, and enforced equal pay laws, then no adult woman would need to depend or feel they need to depend on a man.
Anyway, this is a perfect example of how Obama can be pushed in a direction. What we need to do is make him cave in to progressive pressure instead of regressive pressure.
I agree with hoytdouglas. I really don't think the ringleaders of the Right really care about fetuses or sexual morality. No matter what happens, the elites will be free to have abortions and will be free to indulge sexually with whomever they want. They just want to perpetuate poverty because they alone benefit from it.
Geez, universal single-payer health care already. Any drug anyone needs they'll be able to get for free. Start giving girls birth control upon puberty and make sex ed mandatory for girls and boys, but teach RESPECT along with it, not only for each but for themselves. I would wager that if you did it the right way, less teens would be having sex period, and if they do, they'd be safe.
Birth control doesn't mean that everyone would be engaging in orgies. Not everyone wants "free love."
In fact, I have found that while many women use sex to find love, most women want to be in love with the person they are having sex with and I would also bet that universal free birth control wouldn't change that either.
As for women going lesbian, um, aren't people born homosexual or heterosexual? Nevermind Katy Perry or any other women who kisses another woman in a bar to get attention.
Hell does anyone think that the elites aren't gettin' their wicks waxed somewhere with all of their wealth and power? THEY want to be able to do whatever they want sans consequences. The rest of us are the ones that pay the price.
This is interesting. I've never posted in common dreams but do read it often. I actually have a conservative bent but always try to evaluate both sides of any argument to see where the truth lies or at least my opinion of it. But what I find amazing is the seething hatred many of you have towards all things Republican. It's almost like because they disagree with your positions, that they're the antichrist. And just because we might disagree after talking still doesn't make one evil.
Not that it matters what I think about this article (I happen to disagree with the author's premise and how anything in her line of reasoning could be "stimulus"), I hope that those of you that so hate your fellow Americans for disagreeing would be bigger than those on the opposite side and that this site fulfills a worthy cause - Common Dreams.
Ah conservatives. I used to be one until I realized that there was nothing to gain from it. See, conservatives, at today's versions, are way too self-righteous and more like bulldozers. They get everything they want and then they cry for more making false complaints that they're being "persecuted". If the so-called conservatives didn't believe in wasteful spending, they wouldn't be wasting taxpayer money on useless wars and giving the uberwealthy and corporate elites your taxpayer dollars while you are stuck with the crap. Conservatives will always lie about others hating America when in fact they are the self-righteous ones engaged in all the hate-mongering. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of former conservatives on this site just like myself having left your one-sided pro-nazi camp. Go back and delude yourself with more Rush Limbaugh and Faux Noise but don't drag us into your self-righteous shit that you never follow anyway.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Where is ardee when I need him,
"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
anais nin.
One never knows where ones support may come from.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
azjoe, As a newcomer to this forum I read much of the past postings in order to get a sense of who was worthy of response, who was simply here for entertainment, and who was completely unworthy of entering into debate. Guess which name topped that latter list?
I would surmise that most of us are here to learn, to teach , to find common ground soas to move this nation forward. Others are not. I prefer to spend my time dialoguing with those who are sincere, well balanced, knowledgeable and mature. I would assume that you are as well.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Red Rick Good Morning. Welcome to 'the pit' as I heard it referred to the other day by one who'd been around a while. I hope you caught my post in reply to you, I asked you a question as I recall...political not personal, regarding class warfare...Common Dreams is about 2 parts political, 1 part personal in my observation.
With many passionate voices, this is the way it is. I try not to get personal, though as a BHO supporter I get insulted a lot. But if I discern someone is sticking up for slaughtered Palestinians, is against Gay Rights, or insults newcomers, I may choose to speak up.
I read a post of yours very carefully yesterday and dug it, azjoe.
azjoe, thanks for the kind words and I look forward to spirited and polite debates.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Red Rick, Absolutely!
Maybe he decided to take some time off and grow up. Nobody needs that fat slob of a loser anyway.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Not all things Republican. I think fiscal responsibility is a good idea, hell it's only common sense...but most Republicans would not support getting rid of the Fed in favor of a government central bank issuing money instead...so instead of owing debt every time it needs money, the government would instead make money from loaning out money directly...which in time could possibly reduce or eliminate the need for income taxes, which most Republicans would love to do away with.
But a lot of Republicans support their positions out of sheer ignorance/misinformation. Others probably support it because they have greater financial or personal success with Republican policies...which likely means they are already rich, and have little need for social programs.
I'm a progressive. Neoclassic economics is a failure, yet supported by republicans. Spending into socialism is not the way to go, but is favored by democrats.
All I want is accountability and enforcement of sensible laws. Balance our budget. Make it so Ambassadorships are based on merit, not favors to the vested interests or corporations with connections.
And for godsake, the Earth has too many people already. Contraception and abortion should be embraced as a solution to overpopulation. I'd go even farther and make sterility a free procedure, sponsored the by the US government, in the third world.
I want ethics and freedom and transparency, not graft and conflicts of interests and do-nothingness. I want accountability and the arrest of the criminals and incompetents who have collapsed our economy.
I voted Obama, because if nothing else, he himself is a progressive historic change, as the first non-white president.
Just whistling in the dark here, move along, move along.
What you're seeing isn't a "difference of opinion". It's basic and powerful, a conflict about how government "runs" the lives of the governed.
But don't worry. The hatred of the right for the left is pretty breathtaking, all the more so because of their determination to make everybody knuckle under instead of being free independent human beings.
OK. I'll give you that it can be bad coming from the conservative side as well. But I read and listen broadly and I can tell you, the level of passionate hatred of the other is more well expressed in forums like this one. Not to say it's not on the other - it's just so emotional and evident here.
So if I follow your logic on the government running our lives - I would think that both camps have alot in common. I think we all want much less government in our lives. That we want personal freedom - up to the point that what I do does not negatively impact others. That we all want equal opportunity, not necessarily equal results. That we want to keep what we earn. That each person is responsible and accountable for his/her actions and that there are consequences to those actions - both good and bad. I could go on, but both I think liberals and conservatives alike would agree to these.
The problem is all these one offs and these special situations. Everyone wants a rule for that. I'd prefer that we agree to and operate under some simple guiding principles. That would allow a framework for the many different paths to resolving problems while not crossing boundaries. It would also allow us to quit arguing over people's intent and instead argue over methods - even if their methods are difference since we're all focused on the same goal and playing by the same rules.
"That we want personal freedom - up to the point that what I do does not negatively impact others. That we all want equal opportunity, not necessarily equal results. That we want to keep what we earn. That each person is responsible and accountable for his/her actions and that there are consequences to those actions - both good and bad. I could go on, but both I think liberals and conservatives alike would agree to these."
Well, here is the thing. Take women's sexual and reproductive rights and gun rights. People who believe in women's sexual and reproductive rights, have good reason to be suspicious of any attempts that appear to limit them, even if what you are doing might make sense, because the history of women's rights.
Just as people who value the right to own a gun have reasons to be suspicious of gun control moves, even if those moves might make sense even to gun rights actitivists, because gun control activist in many cases, are not just going to stop with those moves, their ultimate goal is to pretty much make it very difficult, almost impossible to own guns.
Ah conservatives. They never practice what they preach and they're always self-righteous liars. Corn-fed creampuff thinks we're stupid but he's too deluded. Glad I left the conservative camp or I wouldn't have improved in life.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Mr. Mitchell - you sir prove my point of attacking people not ideas. I had to rewrite this several times so that I didn't do the same. I would appreciate it that if you wanted to respond back, let's debate but keep the personal attacks out. I am. And besides, you're jumping to a conclusion if you read me as conservative. I'm simply debating.
creampuff
Terrance isn't jumping anywhere, on the conservative bit, although he is in everything else he said. Interesting that you called him only on the one thing he was right about.... You said "I actually have a conservative bent" so thinking you might be conservative doesn't seem completely out of line to me. On the other hand, clearly some conservatives do practice what they preach and some are not self-righteous. Also, he assumes you’re a he. And I’m not sure what “he’s too deluded” means so--? He [sic] too is deluded? He’s too deluded FOR something?
I occasionally post on conservative sites and the vitriol to which I am subject is astounding. It is, however, usually not very articulate and resorts to name calling (“stupid, asshole, idiot”, that sort of thing) all too often so I agree that what is expressed here is usually better. Can we stipulate that both sides use ad hominem attacks and bad logic too often and get back to your original premise--that you don't see how providing money for contraceptives would stimulate the economy? Don't see how you can not see that, since it's explained right there in the article. Besides, any money borrowed (aka deficit spending) and put into the economy will stimulate it, although some ways have a greater multiplier effect and some have less, and some have more good effects and some have more bad effects. Care to elaborate?
We are absolutely not focused on the same goal/s. In fact I think:
1) the camps would disagree on almost everything you said there, including what 'freedom' means, and
2) we certainly do not want less government in our lives. We almost all want more, in fact, and if you pay attention to deeds (and budgets) and not words you can see that. The difference is the kind of government. Conservatives' reaction to the guilt and anger they feel over the abuse and neglect they've suffered is to feel and think they--and therefore all people--are bad. They (unconsciously) see the problem as irredeemably bad people so the more government they want tends to use punishment and coercion on every problem, and father figures at every level to be in charge of it. They want military solutions to problems a liberal might say are not military problems; they want more police and prisons and rules governing sex* and so-called 'morality'; they think people who have, deserve what they have, so they want to help give them more, and they think people who don't have, deserve that, and they want to keep them from getting. Which of course would all be a problem but not cause the vast and violent destruction we see in the world—if it weren’t magnified by incredible rage caused by personal psychological histories.
This liberal thinks that to say we are responsible for our actions is a drastic oversimplification. Yes, true—in a way. But useless as a guide. We are unconscious of the vast majority of both our motivations and our effects, so what does responsible mean? Do we punish people for effects they aren’t aware of caused by motivations they disavow? There are direct effects and indirect. Other’s intentions are rarely if ever known with certainty. Punishment doesn’t make people better; it makes them sneakier. Therapy makes people better—literal therapy and more public forms of mass therapy—what a shaman does for small, “primitive” societies and for which we have almost no one.
Don’t know what you mean by one offs and special situations. Everything changes; therefore everything is a special situation. General rules are fine, but to the extent we remain unconscious of our own history, motives and effects we will disagree on the right rules and be unable to come together except in domination/manipulation-and-surrender or deal-making. We are not playing by the same rules, and understanding that is what makes many liberals liberal.
Not sure I get what your point is, but I hope you will continue to talk here.
*(because too much pleasure leads to relaxation and relaxation leads (them, certainly and others, maybe, in their experience) to an unleashing of all those feelings and actions they've been made ashamed of)
First of all, I don't know you and you don't know me. I just suspected that you were one of those Limbaugh dittoheads based on your posts. If you're not one, then my apologies.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Creampuff, disregard this gentleman. On a Gay Rights thread the other day he made it clear he's absolutely against Equal Rights for Gays! He voted for bush! I just pass over his posts now, but I'm sorry you were insulted and hope this contexts Mr. Mitchell for you. A 'baiter & insulter' of progressives on CD.
Irrelevant! A crescent moon whispers hope tonight. azjoe.
I find it hypocritical of you to criticize TMinSD of his voting for Bush 8 years ago and his fear of gays and yet you show your own intolerance of him. I'm pretty sure that even your own state of AZ has plenty of Bush voters and homophobes. You cannot expect people to just sit down and shut up just because you don't agree with him. I looked at the topic where you claim that TMinSD was a gay hater and nowhere on that topic did he show it. In fact, he was actually introduced into understanding same-sex couples while you were ranting irrelevant off-topic posts and doing nothing to help him understand. Go ahead and accuse me of not helping him out so that you can defend your pathetic behavior. I don't see how you and ardee expect us folks on the left to get anywhere with all your hatred and intolerance of others. A lot of us on this website come from very conservative areas and even states and we're trying to use these forums to learn from one another rather than act like intolerant rightwingers.
Dennis Duncan......At 7:16 creampuff posts a calm, decent post, her FIRST on CD she shares with us.
Read Mitchell's 8:24 post. The hatred and foul language he uses telling creampuff to leave CD was repulsive.
He's a thread cop? You his little deputy?
I didn't like seeing someone, not even a self-confessed CONSERVATIVE, being insulted and told to leave by Mitchell with his profanity. His bullying. A first time poster to CD. Leave her alone.
Yeah, her first time here and she's told to eff off by mitchell? Guess what? I spoke up and I'd do it again. And you're a real American Hero for sticking up for this aren't you Dennis Duncan?
"He's a thread cop? You his little deputy?"
God knows where you come up with that info from. I never defended TM and there's plenty I disagree with him on such as his blind support of Obama.
"The hatred and foul language he uses telling creampuff to leave CD was repulsive."
I'll leave you to your personal interpretations but there's nothing foul about his post. He may have misunderstood creampuff and if you had read his 11:33 PM post, you would have realized that he apologized for his misjudgements and wouldn't be posting your own misjudgments here.
"A first time poster to CD. Leave her alone."
And how do you know it's a she? It could be a guy for all I know.
"His bullying."
I don't see Terrence any more bullying than you or Ardee but you're free to misinterpret and show your blind prejudice. Unlike some of you on this site, I don't go teaming up with other users to engage in bullying. He may be a blind Obama supporter just like joehope but that doesn't make him a bully.
"And you're a real American Hero for sticking up for this aren't you Dennis Duncan?"
First of all I never defended TMinSD but since you seem to get way too personal about it, go right ahead and add me to your hate list all you want. You think you own this forum don't you? It's amazing that you pick out select posts and criticize someone just because of some view of theirs. Had you read all of TMinSD's posts on the gay marriage article, you would have realized that he's simply not used to the idea unlike you. Your condescending remarks are not helping anyone but creating more hatred and divisions.
If I may insert my opinion here, Mr. Duncan.
I took the trouble to read back a rather long way on this forum prior to even posting my first effort here. I would not disagree with you that both the posters you mention by name have been culpable in some egregious efforts in response to TM. I also noticed that most of the objectionable material was retaliatory in nature rather than a first strike. This does not in any way excuse bad behavior and I understand that you seek a forum free of such efforts, as well we all should.
My reason for this response is to address the homophobia of TM , which I did above but feel the need to expand upon as you seem to raise the point that unfamiliarity with such as homosexuality is a sort of excuse for insulting someone who happens to be such, or even using the charge of homosexuality as a degrading notion. Ralph Nader's sexuality is unknown to me and , I strongly suspect, to TM as well. There are lines that should never be crossed by anyone remotely seeking honest debate, and ardee, azjoe and TM have liberally crossed those lines. But there is no excuse whatsoever for TM's comments regarding Ralph Nader, not if he was raised in a closet even, much less the USA.
All decent people must stand up for the rights of all humanity, and every single time.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Dennis, did you read Mitchell's 1/29 8:24 post, the LAST two sentences? And you talk about 'hatred and divisions?' Read 'em dude. You chose to jump in. Those two sentences are what you are defending.
I'd assault those two sentences or defense of them again. I'm not new here. If Mitchell wants to bully someone, I'm available. Not someone who says they have never posted here b4 who is being decent.
We see things not as they are, but as we are. Anais Nin. (Thanks ardee.)
DD. I'm not intent on arguing. Like I said to Mitchell last night, Ill be looking for what's good in you, your posts, your points of view. azjoe.
azjoe,
I may have voted for Bush in 2000 but that was 8 years ago and a lot can change in 8 years. And if you had even read my actual posts and others trying to assist, you would have realized that some misunderstandings were kind of cleared up. If azjoe had actually read my posts, he would have realized that I'm not against equal rights for gays but rather I didn't take the idea of gay marriages seriously. joehope has better brains than azjoe and ardee.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
I found a post in which you denigrated Ralph Nader ,or so you thought, by "accusing" him of being gay and stating that you didnt want his 'dark secrets' in the White House....Words do matter.
If you cannot stick to that which you write then what worth shall we attribute to them?
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Rick-I've learned to type the persons name I'm replying to first in my posts. Otherwise with other replies bisecting the thread, who one is replying to can become ambiguous.
azjoe.
Terrance Mitchell, Hello up there-yesterday you were unequivocally against Gays being allowed to marry. You questioned the validity of their sex, their relationships, their rights.
You did not think it should be Legal for Gays to marry yesterday.
Is that what you cleared up?
Because if you now support legalizing civil unions, marriage for same sex couples, that WOULD be clearing something up.
By the way TM, we don't know each other but both post here. I am not intent on disagreeing in any way, we may develop a discourse, if so, I'll be looking for common ground, looking for the good in you, and looking forward to looking back on disagreeing. Much Peace 2U, azjoe.
Creampuff - stay in contact, please. I know I need regular reminders to go after the ideas and not the people.
Many of us like Ron Paul, a traditional conservative and a true patriot. Its the neoconservatives I have issues with.
I don’t think Ron Paul is either a traditional conservative or any more of a ‘patriot’ than anyone else in the debate.(if by 'patriot' you mean someone who feels a connection to the people around him or her and wishes the best for them, as well as loving the land. If you mean the more literal sense of supporting the father-figurism of war-lord-centered religion, government and business, count most of us out. Then he is more of a patriot than most of us.) Despite sharing a few values with us, Ron has a number of ideas many of us think are radically insane and would lead to destruction, war, suffering and extinction. (I guess some of that’s redundant but so be it. And please pardon my presumption for the 'us'.
I believe Ron Paul is actually a Libertarian but he couldn't run as one but had to run as a Republican. He is one of those rare Republicans I can trust.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
HMMM, trusting a libertarian whose avowed purpose is to completely deregulate all business practices, eliminate completely the controls of the Federal Government, end Welfare...etc.,etc.,etc. In light of the policies of our last administration, which essentially did the very same things, I doubt trust is a word I would associate with Dr. Paul.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
"How you can spend hundreds of millions of dollars on contraceptives? How does that stimulate the economy?"
Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw this glaring Freudian slip.
Anyone?
Just noticed. Thanks. LOL!!!
Seventhson, yeah, for sure.
-I thought this was funny, although it was a little gauche-
' "who had argued that contraceptives were not about stimulus or growth" '
Anyone?
Ruth
This statement -- "if reproduction ceased to be the goal (for women), sexuality might become yoked to pleasure".
Yet, isn't this exactly the link for men, even conservative men, and hasn't it always been, generally speaking?
The sexuality of conservatives is astonishingly twisted in disproportionate numbers. Look at all the Republican scandals -- conservative politicians in diapers with prostitutes, conservative politicians NOT in diapers with prostitutes, conservative politicians cruising for gay sex in men's rooms, conservative politicians making gay advances to minors. To be fair, liberals have also had their share of scandals, but then liberals don't usually pretend to be about controlling women's reproduction or sexuality.
There is a sexual sickness that ALWAYS shows up when people are repressed, but these people certainly aren't repressed about wanting to control women's sexual and reproductive lives.
Since the Democrats foolishly gave way to the radical rightwingers on this issue and all the Republicans voted against the stimulus bill anyway, it remains to be seen if the Democrats will continue their foolishness.
And one last comment: I suspect the savings will be far in excess of $200M over a five year period if contraception AND education are made available to all women, particularly the young who haven't completed their education and don't have any job skills yet to support themselves and any children they'll have.
So ... do men on Medicaid have access to low-cost ED medications?
Used to, but not any more.
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/MedicareDrugCards/6-10-18-ErectileDysfunctionDrugs.htm
I don't recall the relevant statistics, but a very likely consequence of cutting funding for programs providing contraceptives to poor women is *more abortions*. If the Democrats had a spine, they would point out such consequences of Republican policies at every available opportunity rather that capitulating when it isn't even necessary.
This capitulation to the far right is sickening, and, as I think was already mentioned, symptomatic of our dysfunctional society and a classic case of male domination of women (most Congresspersons are men...). I disagree that contraception and family planning should not be in the stimulus bill. If the economy completely implodes, as seems more and more likely, our wide range of activities will be gone and maybe already are for most people. Traditionally, in what are called developing nations, children are seen as a form of old age security. They are needed to take care of the aging parents and take care of the livelihood of the family unit, whether that be a farm or, sadly, sweatshop factory, or other. In times of stress, especially when it becomes worse and worse, people seek each other for closeness and comfort. Sex becomes that necessary “relief valve” for both women and men. This economic catastrophe in the making may one day be seen as another baby boom which will have economic consequences, good and bad, of its own. In addition to an immediate jolt to the economy (which I think will actually be more harmful in the long run) we should be taking steps now to hopefully eliminate (yeah, right, with our oh-so-visionary Congress) future economic disasters, or more likely, mitigate them. Therefore, I think Congress should restore the family planning provisions in the bill and rethink other parts.
RE "Traditionally, in what are called developing nations, children are seen as a form of old age security. ...Sex becomes that necessary “relief valve” for both women and men."
As an Anthropology student in the '60s, I read of studies on contraception and economic growth. The connection was undeniable: contraception increased local economies.
Another interesting connection emerged: the more educated the young women were, the more able they were to say, "No."
As women's education rates rose, birth rates declined--in multiple countries with varying degrees of development. From Costa Rica to Puerto Rico to India--where many contraception programs were studied then--birth rates fell and the babies who were born were healthier, too. Amazing.
So, we need to support both education and access to contraception. Get a note to your Senators today, because this issue is one Obama needs to hear about from us--and he needs to learn of our anger at his sell-out early on.
This is a critical issue for more than just women in this country. It affects us all.
Seaseal
www.mixtla.blogspot.com
How can you be surprised? Back when Obama botched the issue of women's reproductive rights in July 2008 at a debate with Mccain, I already saw this kind of pandering coming. Thomas Frank and David Sirota keep holding out that Obama will eventually move left but I see very little of it happening. Every time the fool moves 2 steps forward, he has a knack of moving 3-5 steps backwards.
I am not surprised Obama "threw women under the bus". Anyone who paid attention during the primary and general election knew Obama has no respect for women. There is no excuse for Obama giving up the contraceptive/family planning issue. It's funny, I had an email from NOW blaming the republicans for Obama taking the contraceptive/family planning money out of the stimulus bill. Hello! Do they not know the democrats have a majority. The bill passed the house with no republicans voting for it. Obama did not have to take this out of the bill. The responsibility is his. It does not help women when organizations such as NOW, which are supposed to stand up for women, give Obama a free pass because he is their messiah. It is also just plain dishonest. Criticize the republicans for not standing up for women's rights. That is true and fair. Blaming republicans for Obama's actions - dishonest.
JV,
Obama has only been President for 10 days. How much do you expect to happen in that period of time?
If you're expecting miracles, you are living in a fools world.
"House Minority Leader John (Boner) Boehner said, "How you can spend hundreds of millions of dollars on contraceptives? How does that stimulate the economy?"
Easy..first the have to be manufactured, then wholeslaed, then retailed,..then the consumer must purchase dinner, drinks, maybe a movie, a bottle of wine for later, some adult toys, some porno to set the mood, breakfast out the next day, some flowers sent later in the week....its ALL good for the economy..
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
I have to do ALL that to get a man to have sex with me? Well ok if you say it will work .....
~ Juliann
Should be in the bill. But, last Friday Obama did reverse the bush ban on Federal monies for international organizations/use that provide conrasception or abortion.
So now that door is open. Not closed!
azjoe.
Can't you spell dude? It's contraception, what bush's parents should of used.
And in your case, azjoe, it's "should have used" not "should of used."
Rainborowe
azjoe meets petard, gets hoisted...;-)
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
I noticed that on another topic, a guy from Oklahoma named Peter Pike brought up the disturbing trend on how women are treated in some of the most conservative areas such as his state. The rightwing assholes have a knack of stirring up as many gullible men and even mean-headed women into that "ownership society" frame to promote self-righteousness and enslavement of the defenseless. The author is right but unfortuntely, as Peter Pike relates below, women are treated just as grusomely as some animals:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Pike January 28th, 2009 8:25 pm
Hi Dennis,
You're not alone. I'm from Oklahoma myself and trying to bring up the issue of these bad banks is a hellraiser. It's easy to get people involved in trash talk issues such as gun control, abortion, school prayer, etc ... but bring up these economic issues and they raise a stink. I remember back in 2004 when Bush's "ownership" society speech was played out by the state Republicans. There would always be talks about CEOs owning businesses and big dudes owning guns but try to include women owning control of their own body on the issue of reproductive rights and you'd get slammed at as an "abortionist". To make matters worse, for the past decade, "honor killings" have been the norm once every month whereby a man kills his wife or teen daughter for having an abortion without his permission. Worse, when the woman gets killed, the anti-abortion and pro-gun folks team up and dance around the slain one when they can and shout crap such as "Pro LIFE ! Pro LIFE ! Those who kill any unborn deserve to die ! Pro LIFE ! Pro Life !" and "This man had every right to defend the life of the unborn and he's a hero !" The definition of murder is so backward to the point that if a woman terminates pregnancy, it's called "murder" whereas if a man shoots his wife or daughter for having an abortion, that's somehow not called murder but "punishing the murderer" ! So it seems that women are somehow not supposed to have control over their own body but the man can use guns to control his wife or daughter from having an abortion even if it's an emergency. And if the woman dies because she couldn't get an abortion, she's somehow framed as the culprit !
Of course my state is a complete looney bin which is why Inhofe gets an easy ride and Mcsame/Paling get 66% ! On the issue of banks cheating the customers, people are often so divided, they find ways to blame the consumer even when it evident that the bank was the sole culprit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live in Oklahoma, and though I agree with the some of the comments made by Peter Pike, I have not heard about these so-called "honor killings" in my state. Either these incidents are not making it to the local news, or any other news outlets for that matter, or Mr. Pike has a very active imagination. Please provide a link to validate these claims.
You'll have to ask Peter Pike to help you on that one. I only took his quotes from another topic. If "honor killings" are not making it to the news outlets, that's kind of surprising but not too surprising given the rightwing bias out here in the south-central area of the country. Don't get me wrong. Since I don't live in OK, I cannot say whether once a month is for real either as Peter would need to prove it and I was surprised too that "honor killings" were that frequent. However, I guess that like TX where I live at, the people's, not the elites', economy's in crippled condition that people wouldn't feel any pain let alone outrage every time an "honor killing" was reported. I mean when you're economically deprived to the bare bones, who's gonna care about another "honor killing" taking place next door or for that matter any outrageous social crime?
Bobby Love
Siouxrose:
Thank you again for your incisive commentary. If we men do not get the fact that we must do so much more to heal and support our women, then we are surely doomed as a civilization. It is one minute to midnight. Are we ready to humble ourselves and surrender to the "Mending Mothers" ?
Sioux Rose
Hi, Bobby... thanks for the nod, and the poster from Oklahoma directly above yours sounds like fiction. Can this be true? Is it possible that while the Christians are first to rant against the illusion of "Islamo-fascist" that the two (Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists) have more in common than they can possibly realize? For in the Arab nations, the so-called "honor crime" of murdering a daughter or sister for innocent flirting with a young man is also justified... the MISOGYNY is phenomenal.
For the fact that a good deal of modern psychology stems from Freud's quite wrong assessment about the missing penis, it's far easier to make the case that there is a PERVASIVE LIFE-GIVING envy associated with women and their wombs. This explains why there's such rampant, rabid "el primitivo" behaviors "protecting" this turf and keeping it under MAN'S dominion, as women's wombs in places like Congo are raped with weapons, and as WEAPONS, every one of them! is shaped like a phallic extension. And some on this thread think the discussion of the Christian perversion of healthy sexuality INTO A SIN has nothing to do with why war is so prevalent? I am so tired of hearing how women are capable of the same violence as men. Some, perhaps, but it is based on PATRIARCHAL anti-life conditioning.
Too often the same cavalier disregard for how women are treated in societies extends to how the earth, as DIVINE MOTHER is also treated. It is an abhorrent disrespect for life. So when I rant on about the importance of restoring a balance in our spiritual views pertaining to the Divine masculine and Divine feminine as intended co-partners, it's pretty sad that some men take that LOFTY argument and try to speak about Margaret Thatcher or some such.
The philosophies, religion-influenced, that societies have lived by have been masculine views of life, creation, and what is important. WOMEN have been forced to adapt! That doesn't mean these philosophies speak for women. Until all voices are equivalent at the policy-making tables (tragic that the women thus far let in are the Athena-types seen in Condi Rice and Hilary Clinton) and until respect for the feminine is seen as spiritual co-partner to the worship of the masculine, much of the discourse, the roots of what ails us as a species only scratches the surface.
But what about the lipstick?
(Sorry, I could not help myself. My apologies to anyone that feels offended.)
Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in their moccasins - Native American proverb.
"Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in their moccasins."
Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in WHOSE moccasins? HIS moccasins?
Is it OK to criticize a WOMAN before you've walked a mile in their (or even her) moccasins?
What if his or her moccasins don't start bothering them until the 2nd mile? Then what will walking one mile in them prove?
And what if you and s/he have different-sized feet? Then what will it prove?
I'm not sure I understand this alleged Native American proverb at all.
hahaha don't worry this woman is not offended!
If womens' issues are not pork, then don't attach this type of legislation onto a completely unrelated bill. I am not against this legislation at all, but I am against "Christmas Tree" legislation that provides everyone an opportunity to hang on the ornamental non related legislation and pork projects. Barrack Obama is trying to get a bail out bill passed as quickly and efficiently as possible. If you attach a social program, you are going stimulate a Republican backlash - as it is one of their favorite issues that Democrats tax and spend on social programs (even though the Republican alternative is tax cuts for the billionaires and reckless spend, spend, spend on war and the military).
And in all fairness, there is a process issue here. When you have legislation either alone or attached to a related social programs bill, then there is an opportunity for full discussion. Legislative discussions have been on topic and about the bail out. So part of the issue is passing legislation that has had no discussion because it isn't an integral part of the bail out bill.
What you say makes a certain amount of sense. But the GOP is going to oppose everything Obama proposes anyway. Boehner has made that rather clear.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
In this day and age, the Republican position has become nonsensical. Now that women no longer need men economically, more and more of them are choosing to be with other females. And everyone knows that one bonus of sex from that sort of relationship is that it does not lead to unwanted pregnancy. So, by reducing contraception, it seems that the Republicans are trying to increase the incidence of lesbianism. Is that what they really want?
Now that women no longer need men economically, more and more of them are choosing to be with other females.
I find this comment to be silly, at best. What you're stating is that gays and lesbians choose this lifestyle. Most of the women I know who choose to be with men do so out of love and sexual attraction, not economic dependence. And it is possible for a woman to have sex with a man without it leading to unwanted pregnancy; how absurd to suggest that no possibility of pregnancy is a "bonus" of being in a lesbian relationship. My gay friends have not chosen their lifestyles; they were born genetically wired to be attracted to the same sex. I had many disappointing relationships with men; it would have made sense for me to choose a relationship with another woman. However, it would also be impossible for me, because I am not attracted to women.
NMLib
Sioux Rose
NMLIB: I second all your motions (and personal conclusions). I tell my daughters my generation essentially headed west in symbolic conostoga wagons so that their generation might have really equal partnerships with men. WE did the heavy lifting, and that's why something akin rage boils my blood when these phony Christians (who honor what Christ taught about as much as Saddam Hussein did) think they can tell me or my daughters what to do with their bodies, inclusive of their vaginas!
There was a study recently that showed a dramatic increase in the rate of female bisexuality and lesbianism over the past few decades in the US. Look, it just makes sense. Even if it were genetic (which seems incredibly unlikely in the case of women), it would be reasonable to assume that many women would be in the middle of the range between heterosexuality and lesbianism and could go either way. Before the last few decades, those women would have virtually all chosen to be with men for economic reasons (even many on the lesbian side would have chosen to be with men). Now they could very well choose to be with women, and unwanted pregnancy could be a consideration.
And I know this is not a popular point, but there is a reason that many gays and lesbians want to establish that sexual orientation is genetic. If it is genetic, then it is an immutable characteristic and sexual orientation becomes a protected class under the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment, and any sort of discrimination in any way would become subject to the rules of "strict scrutiny" under a review by a court, which pretty much means forget it. But then there are many in the lesbian community who claim it is a choice, and a choice that they are proud of.
Look, have you heard of the phrase, "lies, damn lies, and statistics"?
There is dramatic increase in the REPORTED rate of female bis and lesbians in the US. Just because there were more bis, and lesbians, and gays, and transgendered people in the closet 100 years, 50 years, ago, people who were afraid of coming out because they were afraid of being beaten to death, or losing their jobs, does not mean that there are more lesbians, bis, transgendered, gay people nowadays.
The REPORTED, OPEN, OUT OF CLOSET, rate has increased. BIG difference.
No it would not be reasonable to make the assumptions you do.
As to whether it is choice or genetics, it does not matter. Irrelevant. A red herring from the bigots. Choice or genetics, GLBT are fully equal human citizens too. They are not forcing themselves on someone else.
You stated:
As to whether it is choice or genetics, it does not matter. Irrelevant.
Agree! And I think the GLBT community would be better served by adopting this stance. However, as I pointed out earlier, many in the GLBT community argue that it is genetic because of the extra protection that would be provided under the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment.
According to that aforementioned study, there are three times as many women who claim to be bisexual as there are women who claim to be lesbian. And many lesbians admit to going through a bisexual period. So, if one is bisexual, and choosing a man means comfort and security, and choosing a woman means poverty and uncertainty and even danger, would not a greater number of women in the past, as opposed to today, who were on that bisexual fence, have chosen to be with a man? And was not divorce rare and so they would have stayed with that man, regardless of their desires? So, in their behavior, they were heterosexual, were they not? And all we know is their behavior. You may hold, but I cannot agree, that someone can be labeled "in the closet" if they had the desires but never acted on them. Usually, that is referred to as "repressed," or possibly "latent," not "in the closet."
I've known a LOT of lesbians in my life through my involvement in the women's movement back in the early 70s. The only time I've seen lesbians exercise a choice about who they'll be with has been when the women married a man and realized slowly that she was a lesbian and always had been. Many young women, including lesbians, are not particularly sexual until they are older and reach a sexual peak, usually years after they've entered a traditional marriage. Those women eventually left their "straight" marriages and entered lesbian relationships.
So, in this sense, I suppose you could say these women "made a choice", but it wasn't a choice about being straight or lesbian. It was a choice about what to do with their lives when they realized they were homosexual.