Subscribe to Common Dreams News Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Open Letter to President-Elect Obama
Dear President-Elect Obama:
You have been receiving a great deal of advice since November 4, 2008
from people and groups who either want you to advance policies not
covered in your campaign or who want you to be more specific about
initiatives you emphasized.
There are two suggestions which may not be among your store of
recommendations that need to be considered before you take office on
January 20, 2009.
First, the public would benefit from a concise recounting of the state
of the union and where the Bush Administration has left our country. As
is your style, you can render such a bright line of serious problems
inside and outside the government in a matter-of-fact manner.
Otherwise, a blurring of who was responsible for what can taint your
presidency.
Second, you need to make a clean break from the Bush regime’s law of
rule to our declared commitment to the rule of law as in the firm
adherence to constitutional requirements and statutory and treaty
compliance. There is a Bush-Cheney stream of criminal and
unconstitutional actions which are on auto-pilot day after day. You
have pointed out some of these abominations such as a policy and
practice of torture and violations of due process and probable cause.
The task before you is to break these daily patterns just as soon as
you ascend to the Presidency or be held increasingly responsible for
them. This can be significantly accomplished by executive orders,
agency or departmental directives, whistle-blower protections,
enforcement actions and explicit legislative proposals.
With Americans wishing you well in this most portentous of times, the
last thing they want to see is you tarnished by the preceding rogue
regime and its ruthless monarchical forays. To avoid this contagion of
power over law and its contiguous accountabilities at a time when you
are striving for a “clean slate” administration, you must be decisive
and eschew any excessive harmony ideology which has seemed to be your
nature vis-à-vis those who are powerful but are opposed to your views.
One possible impediment to your making a comprehensive clean break for
restoring the rule of law is that you have too easy an act to follow.
There are a long list of violated civil liberties that need to be
restored (the American Civil Liberties Union has compiled a list of
immediate actions for you to take), and resolute commitments must be
made so that it is clear the United States, for example, will not
engage in, or countenance, torture. Only a few restorations, however,
would produce a sense of relief and flurry of accolades -- but they are
hardly sufficient.
There are also regulations and interpretations of statutes that
scholars believe to have been erroneous as a matter of law. As one
guide for your new era of overdue regulation or reregulation—given the
corporate wrongdoing these days—you may wish to refer to the Center for
Progressive Reform’s report By the Stroke of the Pen.
The Bush lawlessness and state terrorism are like a contagious disease.
If you do not remove their sprawling incidence, you will become their
carrier. This means you must move fast to eject the mantle of war
criminality and repeated unconstitutional outrages committed in the
name of the American people here and abroad.
Sincerely,
Ralph Nader
- Posted in




142 Comments so far
Show AllThe Glue That Holds Chaos Together
Again, all great points, and you are a genius...but how can we get you in office?
If Nader ran as a congressman or Senator, he would have a better chance of getting into office...
snydly
Nader for Commerce Sec'y!
.Nader ran, not to gain office, but to push an agenda.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Thats truth. And it wasn't a bad agenda either. I hope he listens to Ralph on the two suggestions he offered.
As is your style, you can render such a bright line of serious problems inside and outside the government in a matter-of-fact manner. Otherwise, a blurring of who was responsible for what can taint your presidency.
A sound, very very sound, piece of advice. Lay the blame where it belongs, with George Wanker Bush and every thief, liar, pickpocket, hypocrite and back stabber all the way back to Nixon (including W.J. Clinton, if necessary). Tell the truth and keep on telling it no matter who doesn't like it. You will be surprised, even stunned, to find out how popular this will make you. Bury the Republicans; shove them all into a deep open grave, fill it in and then cover it over with 20 feet of titanium reeinforced cement and place a heavily armed guard around it 24/7.
"Rule of law"? "Constitutional"? "Civil liberties"? Cripes, what a crank.
C'mon, everyone, let's dogpile this Nader clown!
Mr. Nader has stated the simple fcats so why argue with him.
President-elect Obama needs to take these actions if he intends to any-at-all redeem Americas once good standing in the world.
Good parody, but it is cutting too close to current day reality. Such freedoms are indeed being "rendered quaint".
Why aren't you shopping?
---USAn---
.Exactly, Goebbels ( what an unfortunate choice of names), all Ralph Nader does is cut through the crap of hidden agendas and duplicitous promises, speak to the core or our democratic processes and plead for a restoration of the democracy as established by our founders, all great reasons to tear into him like a shark in a feeding frenzy.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Does Nader live in NY? If so, appoint HIM Senator. It would make a fine springboard.
He lives in Connecticut.
Had Nader ran for Lieberman's senate seat, then he wouldn't have split the McKinney ticket, and we wouldnt have Lieberman...!
Exactly. In fact, he could have easily taken Chris Shay's seat before, no?
.Born in Winsted, Connecticut, resides in Washington, DC....
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
A brilliant letter by Nader with two of the finest suggestions that could be offered to the Presiden elect.
His only miss was to put forth the ACLU to provide a list. After selling out the American worker and the American citizen for the last few years they are off my Christmas list.
Kudo's to Ralph for his two suggestion's.
How did the ACLU sell out the US worker of the US citizen?
As a US citizen who, over the past 10 years has had to face hostile police while asserting my First Amendment right to dissent, I'm sure glad the ACLU has a presence at our demonstrations.
---USAn---
You wouldn't care for them so much if they were working to protect non-Americans that were taking your job. You'd care even less for them if they attacked you as you tried to defend yourself against being forced to subsidize business and provide free services to non citizens to the detriment of your family and your children.
Even less as they proteveted the rights on non citizens to join your union and take your place to benefit business and your uninon....
The ACLU in its day was an admirable organization and stll has some good folks....but they have sold out for funding as many others have done over the years. Check their major sources of funding.
There is another excellent article posted on CD, ignored as most of these are, that will give you a beginning insight into the "sell out"
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/09-9#comment-1110066
And, I assume you are a descendent of a "non-american" yourself?
And, assuming that you are talking about people from the westerm hemisphtere to the south of the US, well, they are Americans too.
Most of these non US citizen's families would literally starve if they couldn't come up here to find work. And most are legally working here. Please put yourself in their shoes.
And considering that the US labor movement was practically founded and run by immigrant mine and mill workers - Irish, Poles, Slavs, Italians, and now latinoamericanos, I really have trouble seeing them as enemies of the American worker - they are the American workers. I am descended from poor Irish and Italian Catholics, in an city where one can still see the structural vestiges of anti-catholic, anti-immigrant discrimination.
---USAn---
I wonder what they do call themselves south of the USA? I know that north of the USA we sure don't call ourselves American. "America" is derived from Amerigo Vespucci some old Italian guy who never ever saw the place but tried to set up several business ventures to exploit the place at about the same time that wretch Columbus' depredation on the new world began. Never much cared for the name myself, I prefer Turtle Islander.
Sophie Scholl-The Final Days
White Rose
I believe its fairly well accepted that American means a citizen of the United States of America. Any other reasoning is simply political rhetoric to me. Canadians are canadians. South Americans are usually called by the name of their country.
I prefer Turtle Islander to New Yorker myself. Much prettier.
To the south, they call themselves "Mejicano", or "Venezolano" etc. They also often refer to themselves and everyone else in this Hemisphere, especially South and Central America, as "Américano". Latin Americans can get a bit offended at the way the US calls itself "America" - it implies a certain arrogance. The US is just one small country in America. A US citizen should call hem/herself "USA citizen" or "USAn".
To our south, they refer to the US as "Norteamérica", or the "EE. UU." (abbreviated for "Estados Unidos". It residents are Estadounidese" or, translated, "USAn".
You Canadians have it easy - just call yourselves "Canadian".
As for me, I encourage my fellow US citizens to adopt the term "USAn", rather than "American".
We also need to seriously get over our arrogance about not adopting the metric system too, but that's another topic.
---USAn
How about American debtors?
On the metric system.....please wait till I'm dead. (No suggestions on how to hurry that along from the peanut gallery please)
If you can count money you can use the metric system. Nobody in this world can tell or show me how long a foot is without a tape measure or scale base on the english system. To use the metric system all one needs is a scale or tape measure based on the metric system.
It's that dam simple.
Rickster
USAn
Thats the same song they were singing last year. I am sorry, but the citizens of my country come first in my country. I am speaking specifically of people that are here in our country illegally.
Its not that I don't understand these folks, they have been coming and going in Texas for years. Mostly hard working folks before the 86 debachle. I don't blame them one little bit. There are a lot more now that have come that don't even fit that faux description.
If you think thats how it is I can assure you thtat you are mistaken. Business abuses these folks badly. You should see and hear some of the things that go on. See the mistreatment. Hurt, no problem Jose/Karl/Kunte...you are out and the next one over the border takes your place. The LaRaza and other racist organizations storyline's are simply lie's.
"Most of these non US citizen's families would literally starve if they couldn't come up here to find work. And most are legally working here"
That is absolutely not true. Where did you get that information? there are about 20 million illegals here, though some are departing. And I refer to illegal aliens from all over the world. Latinos make up the bulk, but wee have plenty of Irish, eastern europeans whatever, from all over the world. Last time I checked, there were about 300,000 illegals from my bunch...the Irish.
Thats the same song they were singing last year. I am sorry, but the citizens of my country come first in my country. I am speaking specifically of people that are here in our country illegally.
Its not that I don't understand these folks, they have been coming and going in Texas for years. Mostly hard working folks before the 86 debachle. I don't blame them one little bit.
But if you think thats how it is you are sadly mistaken. Business abuses these folks badly. You should see and hear some of the things that go on. See the mistreatment. Hurt, no problem Jose/Karl/Kunte...you are out and the next one over the border takes your place. The LaRaza and other racist organizations storyline's are simply lie's.
"Most of these non US citizen's families would literally starve if they couldn't come up here to find work. And most are legally working here"
That is absolutely not true. Where did you get that information? there are about 20 million illegals here, though some are departing. And I refer to illegal aliens from all over the world. Latinos make up the bulk, but wee have plenty of Irish,
eastern europeans whatever, from all over the world. Last time I checked, there were about 300,000 illegals from my bunch...the Irish.
"I really have trouble seeing them as enemies of the American worker - they are the American workers." tThese illegal aliens are not American workers, they are not Americans. They are a tremendous monatery burden on our citizens and the weapon that business uses to get cheaper labor and depress wages.
This is an area I know a lot about. And there is no anti-immigrant fervor or any of that BS. This is economics. Each one of these illegals cost us money each year and provide business with higher profits. Thats a wealth transfer we simply cannot afford.
And in the end we must decide if we are a nation of laws or not. Selective compliance will not suffice.
Its certainly more complicated than this and obviously its hitting the border states with severity while hardly touching other states. Its a tremendous burden for Texas taxpayers.
"And, I assume you are a descendent of a "non-american" yourself?"
You bet...and my G Granfather told tales about "No Irish Need Apply" He said we were the ones that really elevated the blacks from the bottom of the pile. (lol)
.Oh Thomas, this sort of stuff is why I like you more for your personality than for your somewhat egregious political views.
Citizens come first, or those who came here first come first? I know, we stole this country fairly and now we own it so screw them. You demonstrate an egocentric and small minded view of justice. It is never 'my country right or wrong'!
I had the distinct privilege of working , peripherally to be certain, with Delores Huerta and Cesar Chavez during the Delano Grape strikes in central California. I was present when La Raza was being created and aimed, thus I am in a position to emphatically call you out on your irrationally and terribly wrong headed accusations about that group. Shame on you!
Illegals come to this country for a variety of reasons, those who come here from the South do so mainly because American based and owned trans national agribusinesses, in collusion with corrupt governments there, have forced them off their farms and they must find a way to feed their families. The vast majority of these people, who endure incredible hardship, expense and danger to arrive here are honest and hard working folks. You should really be ashamed of yourself my friend.
Those who toil illegally today will have sons and daughters who are American citizens and their children will be indistinguishable from the rest of us, this is, in large part what makes our nation so potentially great, a constant infusion of new cultures and new work ethic. I challenge you to provide statistics showing the "great expenses" caused to you by such illegals. I would offer that, as they work in large part with phony social security numbers, thus contributing taxes and payments they will never be able to claim, they actually create a surplus.
We have, indeed, a problem, it is an illegal hiring one and your rather dark accusations should be aimed more at those American citizens who hire illegals knowingly,profit greatly from that hiring as well as American policies that destroy economies and cultures abroad. As to the ACLU, well they please few because they work for all, recognising that everyone, no matter other considerations, deserves representation. That is why I support them strongly and why you should as well.
Thomas, I like you,and I consider that you do seek fairness and justice generally , thus I would urge you strongly to ponder and reconsider some of your more rabid and hateful positions.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Cesar Chavez spoke out AGAINST the hiring of illegal migrants, and even led protest marches to the border to draw attention to the problem, because he understood that agricultural wages would always remain depressed if employers were allowed to recruit neo-slaves from other countries. Forty years later, history has proven Chavez right.
True.
.Chavez' opposition to illegal workers had everything to do with hardship conditions, horrific exposures to chemicals and danger, very poor wages and being cheated out of those, and nothing at all to do with you or Thomas' objections to them. He was concerned with the workers themselves while you two are engaged in a fantasy in which those workers somehow harm the people of this nation.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Nonsense. You're trying to turn Chavez's outspoken and clear opposition to illegal migrant workers into support for them. That's a fiction. The workers that Chavez supported and represented were legal U.S. citizens and members of United Farm Workers, not the illegal border jumpers.
Chavez fought for better wages and safe working conditions through the traditional method of union bargaining. He knew he could never succeed as long as an endless supply of illegal migrant workers was available to employers to undercut his bargaining position. As I said, forty years later history has proven him right.
.Speaking of nonsense:
The curious case of Chavez and his evolving views on illegal immigration is best explained in University of California, San Diego professor David G. Gutierrez's 1995 book, Walls and Mirrors: Mexican Americans, Mexican Immigrants, and the Politics of Ethnicity. There, the good profe documents how the position of the union leader regarding illegal immigration changed under pressure from Chicano yaktivists. Know Nothings love to repeat Chavez's initial hatred of open borders, so much so that a page on the UFW's Web site now claims Chavez was against scabs, not illegal immigration, despite reams of evidence to the contrary.
http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-07-03/culture/was-cesar-chavez-really-against-illegal-immigration/
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
#1
Ardee....I'm surprised at you. If you knew César Chávez you know that he viewed illegal immigration in the same way and for many of the same reasons. Especially on wages.
"I was present when La Raza was being created and aimed, thus I am in a position to emphatically call you out on your irrationally and terribly wrong headed accusations about that group. Shame on you!"
You are speaking of the past. Now they are nothing more than a shill for business, which is where they get their funding. Name one thing they have gotten done for Latino people recenly. Nadfa. They are entirely focused on advocating and protecting illegal aliens for cheap labor. There is no other reason to encourage illegals. Their leadership speaks from a script. Shame on you for supporting theft from American workers and American families.
"Illegals come to this country for a variety of reasons, those who come here from the South do so mainly because American based and owned trans national agribusinesses, in collusion with corrupt governments there, have forced them off their farms and they must find a way to feed their families. The vast majority of these people, who endure incredible hardship, expense and danger to arrive here are honest and hard working folks."
I don't disagree with that statement for a moment. Not one moment. Though there are some bad actors using them for screens as you know. I am not ashamed at all. Their country is as much at fault as mine for NAFTA and is entirely at fault for the majority of the poverty that forces them to look for work elsewhere. My country and its citizens do come fiorst of course. I am not an open borders advocate. I have no interest in destroying our country. We cannot support the world. And if you believe that these folks are a net positive for our economy, be assured that they are not. Though I reject that argument for their presence just as much as the stupidity of "no human is illegal"
"Those who toil illegally today will have sons and daughters who are American citizens and their children will be indistinguishable from the rest of us, this is, in large part what makes our nation so potentially great, a constant infusion of new cultures and new work ethic."
This is partially true. Thats what I was trying to twell some of these folks the other day, Mexicans are Maxican citizens, Americans are Americans and come in a wide variety of flavors.
I'd hate to think that you are saying I object to illegal aliens because of their race, whatever it is. You should know better. All illegals need to be gone....including the Irish, who as everyone knows are the real native Americans and discovered America in the first place.
Now let me clarify, just because someone is poor or is having hardsip in their own country....they have no right to come here simply because they decide to. None at all. To even argue that is silly. I can find people from all over the world that could make better argument based on emotional grounds or physical needs.
"I challenge you to provide statistics showing the "great expenses" caused to you by such illegals."
The latest stat we have here is a study just completed that shows that illegals cost Texans over 670 million dollars in hospital costs. This is only for those that are here illegally. Their children are of course an added expense (study, by the Texas Health and Human Services Commission) http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1091694.html The latest we have from the comptroller is 2006 so you have to extrapolate the percentage forward. http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/...pay close attention to local costs, not federal.
As near as I can tell what illegals pay in, those working with SS #'s are a wash with what they get out federally in programs...some years more, some years less, but on average I believe its a wash.
The real cost is to the local taxpayer and some state costs, but mostly county and city governments are bearing the costs.
Each illegal costs Texans a defined amount of their taxes each year. Generally speaking it seems to require the taxes paid by one local family to support each illegal.
The argument is made for their contribution tyo the economy, a non argument as these jobs would be held by Americans and there would be no loss, in fact a gain, because we would no longer be transferring 30-40 billion in cash out oof the country each year...and that is just to Mexico.
Thank you, Thomas More, for your intelligent and well-mannered responses to the several neoslave-trade apologists and provocateurs who inhabit this forum. Well done.
I don't disagree with anything you've said above, but I'll offer some additional perspective. I have personally listened to illegal migrants working as roofers explain how they come across the border for each construction season (in northern states). Not one said he was unemployed in his home country, much less poor or starving. Often they had left behind jobs as bankers, accountants, business-owners . . . one said he was a medical doctor. I realized then that many illegal migrants are middle-class, not poor.
Ralph Nader and others have pointed this out in the past. Consider that smugglers charge $1000-$2000 to bring people across the border. Desperately poor people in Central America and Mexico can barely afford to travel to the U.S. border, much less pay a coyote to smuggle them across. This is not to say that the desperately poor are not among the illegal aliens who come here. I also am not personally familiar with the situation in Texas. My point is the blanket portrayal of illegals as "poor and starving" is grossly inaccurate.
Regarding your figure of $30-$40 billion a year the illegal aliens send back to Mexico each year, I believe that Mexico receives about half of all such remissions. I've been been using the figure of $60 billion a year in total remissions sent to the home countries of illegal aliens.
And I point out that because wages paid have a "multiplier effect" (each dollar of wages paid has the impact of at least three and as many as seven dollars, because those dollars are spent and re-spent in the local community) that missing $60 billion has a negative impact of $180-$420 billion per year on the U.S. economy. (By contrast, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan cost $200 billion per year.)
Thanks for the kind words.
In Texas most of our illegals are poor. We are in close proximity so its not hard to get across and its traditional as well. We've had illegals forever, they know where to go and how to get there. Its only since business really started exploiting them that its becomne a real problem.
"several neoslave-trade apologists and provocateurs who inhabit this forum."
I don't think thee are any like that here. I believe most that favor illegal immigration are warm hearted people that don't understand the cost and damage of this problem. Whats really happened since 86.
They may even think its like it was 25 years ago. I'm not sure. But I don't believe anyone here favors abusing these folks or would want harm to come to them. Or favors business exploiting them. We just happen to be in the forefront of the problem here in Texas, so we are more aware perhaps.
"I believe most [here] that favor illegal immigration are warm hearted people..."
You're a kinder man than I. I don't see warm heartedness in ardee's rhetoric.
Many tens of thousands of workers ride the freight trains across the borders each month...
as they aren't checked thoroughly coming in or out...
This is well known by border control law enforcement, however they ignore it because it would be too costly in man power and time to stop and search each box car of each train of each rail of each day...
Also the factory owners and industrial scale agriculturalists and construction companies encourage it because they don't have to pay living wages or benefits for illegal temp workers...
They also have a racket of withholding wages for a few weeks, then calling ICE or INS on the workers before payday...
I feel sorry for folks from Mexico and Guatemala who have been forced off their land by brutal and currupt paramilitary militias...
They have been screwed by NAFTA and CAFTA, and would rather brave the long trip twice a year than work for even less in some maquilladora on a border town...
These seasonal migrant workers often get robbed at gun point or thrown off a moving train during their return train trip to Mexico by armed gangs who take their season's earnings...
Mostly true I'd say...( I have seen no figures on the numbers of illegals crossing by train, but the rest I know to be true and another part of the problem.
Our trade agreements seem to favor only one group in each country. What a surprise. NAFTA really screwed the Mexican farmer. I am ashamed of our country for allowing that.
Thanks for that detailed perspective. The situation is indeed shameful. I have been calling for strict enforcement of U.S. immigration laws (including criminal prosecution) against illegal employers. I've also advocated a new law requiring illegal employers to provide each of their illegal employees a $5000 severance bonus. That would serve two purposes: compassion for the wage slaves, and a strong incentive for employers (who have long gotten away with claiming they "didn't know" their thousands of non-English speaking employees were not citizens) to hire U.S citizens.
It's surprising to hear that migrants are robbed of their "season's earnings" on the way home. In northern states money is most commonly wired home.
Can you answer a question? If the number of people coming across on freight trains is so large, I assume there is corruption and payoffs on the Mexican side (if not the U.S. side as well). Do you have any idea of what people are charged to ride those trains into the U.S.?
.Xenophobia, fun for the whole family....You a bit but your new found ally rather much..."slave trade" hyperbole doesn't alter the desperate needs of those who come here. Nor does branding these folks as middle class, how absurd...12 million estimated illegals in this nation and perhaps a handful were such, doctors? Oh yeah find me one!
You slander La Raza, a nonprofit, nonpartisan and private organization. I would love to know where this hatred comes from Thomas, was your mother frightened by a low rider while pregnant with you?
http://www.nclr.org/
By and large the jobs these workers are able to get are such as no American would take in the first place and at wages no American would consent to working for either. Of course there are exceptions , but, by and large, they are usually lies and distortions, just as are the estimates of hospitalization and school costs.
Bottom line, these folks come here in order to feed their families because American business practices have made doing such untenable in their own nations, whether Mexico, Guatemala or Ireland ( which has a pretty darn good economy or did until the current economic mess), and I will not demonize them as do you and your friend...Xenophobia makes strange bedfellows apparently.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
People like ardee who claim there are "jobs Americans won't do" should be forced to watch all six episodes of Fox's "Secret Millionaire," to learn what poverty in the U.S. looks like, and how ridiculous and insulting is their claim that Americans "won't do" certain jobs.
.It is impossible to be warmhearted about someone like you who distorts facts to win an argument about the hardship endured by millions.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Watch the six hours of "Secret Millionaire," and then tell us how there are jobs Americans won't do.
.I do not get my facts or opinions from some absurd and childish television show. That you apparently do is sad and makes your entire thesis suspect.
I watch sports, documentaries and an occasional movie, otherwise the "idiot box" is off.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"Secret Millionaire" IS a documentary series. It strips wealthy people of their identities and money, places them in the poorest neighborhoods of their home cities, and requires them to live there for a week on a welfare check or wages from a minimum wage job: often less than $100.
I suggested you watch it because I know you would never abandon your ivory tower and untouchable corporate/corporate foundation salary, pension or investments to even drive through an urban ghetto or rural shantytown, not to mention actually engage with people there.
Deep down, you know that whatever is good for corporate profits is good for your own bottom line, regardless of the hardships and suffering it causes our own impoverished citizens. You salve your conscience with the pretense that corporate neo-slavery has no repercussions for these people . . . who are indeed real human beings, with real families who are really suffering, and who live near you but remain invisible to you.
No, you would never watch such a documentary. It may burst your "they don't want to work" denial bubble.
.You betray your ultimate lack of worth with words about me that are based completely on your own stupid opinion and in no way about the realities of my life. When you have to make a false image of someone in order to "score points" then you are nothing at all worth debating. Grow the fuck up or go the fuck away.
That stupid program is just another vacuous reality TV dumbshit show watched as true by dumbshits like you.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Your own words speak louder about who you really are than anything I could say.
.Go back to sitting mindlessly in front of your television.. The rest of us will carry one, thanks but no thanks.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I am surprised.
Hate, I have no hate for LaRaza. Just contempt. They sold out to business. You seem fixated on Latinos also, I am speaking of all illegal aliens coming here. Of course our states have a preponderance of Latinos. A charge of xenophobia is far beneath you. In fact I believe you know better.
"By and large the jobs these workers are able to get are such as no American would take in the first place and at wages no American would consent to working for either."
Absolute fabrication on the first part, but absolutely true in the latter. Americans cannot work for the wages that these folks do.
"and I will not demonize them as do you"
I am not "demonizing anyone, especially illegal aliens. I have worked with to many not to know them for what they are. Pretty much like anyone else, but mostly without education.
Every word you have said is right out of the open borders playbook. So I assume you favor open borders?
Lets examine your claims.....
12 million? You are far too intelligent to spout that nonsense. Its well over 20 million as you know. The 12 million was from the late nineties.
Estimates are lies and diastiortions? Its a far higher cost than that. Chicken and egg. The children born here are American citizens and are not figured into the cost, but they would not be citizens if their parents hadn't come here illegally. So its a real cost. They are underestimates if anything. Many don't work under SS #'s and pay no taxes, many that do have #'s, the taxes are pocketed and never paid.
What about the American worker these people displaced? Thier cost must be added. The actual cost is staggering.
Look at the cry for "Comprehensive Immigration Reform", our system is broken. Where exactly is it broken? How? Its not obviously, its just not enforced.
I'll tell you now that Texans can no longer afford it. Accept it or not the truth is that these folks are a net loss to us.
Bottom line....why do you consider their needs before your own countrymen? When did we acquire the responsibility for them. And the "America destroyed their economies" dog won't hunt. Are we responsible for problems in different countries...you bet. NAFTA hurt Mexicans and Americans and others. So lets fix it.
Why do you feel we need to import poverty and unskilled labor? Because they need it? Their country isn't providing them opportunity? What right do you see that I don't that gives any of these folks to break our law, put themselves ahead of people that want to immigrate here and abide by our law? To suggest zenophobia in the United States with our level of immigration is non-sensical.
The lies and distortions are fairly evident at this point. And they are put out by big business and their shills. I'd ask you to examine your claims again, take a fresh look at the actual event. Put aside your prejudice and look at it economically. Look at the arguments used to advocate illegasl immigration. They are arguments you would laugh at at chastize others for using for their shallowness.
My bottom line is that my country and its citizens do come first. I consider citizenship to be a privilage and not something that can be stolen or had because we lacked the moral courage to live by the rule of law.
I ask you also to consider that over 80% of all Americans rejected amnesty and the right to illegally immigrate here last year. Are they all xenophobic? There won't be an ammnesty this time. I supported 1986 as did most Americans, I can't see the same mistake being made again.
#2
"We have, indeed, a problem, it is an illegal hiring one and your rather dark accusations should be aimed more at those American citizens who hire illegals knowingly,profit greatly from that hiring as well as American policies that destroy economies and cultures abroad."
I thought I had made it fairly clear that I hold the illegals themselves at no fault. I would do the same in their shoes as I suspect any man would. The blame lies entirely on the back of American business that exploits their need and at the same time has the American taxpayer subsidize their cheap labor. Dark allegations? I thought it was clear....illegal aliens taking American jobs is no longer acceptable nor can we afford it. Business, government that refuses to follow the law by business's requests and any organization that shills for these slime are traitors to my country as far as I'm concerned.
"I consider that you do seek fairness and justice generally , thus I would urge you strongly to ponder and reconsider some of your more rabid and hateful positions."
There is nothing hateful about demanding that business's hire American workers, that they not bring in foreign workers either legally or illegally to depress American workers wages and to exploit the foreign workers as cheap labor. Therer is nothing hateful in asking anyone that comes here to do it according to our laws.
I am rabid about this though. Charges like those spread around last year that if you oppose illegal immigration you are racist, a bigot, xenophobic or some other ism simply won't fly this time around. We have all learned too much about how large and costly this problem really is. Why do you think the open borders advocates keep saying 12 million illegal aliens when they are quite well aware that figure has been around since the late nineties and its well over 20 million, but starting to erode.
There is nothing fair and just about someone that decides he will become a citizen and forgets to ask permission.
This question is complex not in what is right or wrong, tharts fairly plain. But in the real costs, the damages done to the illegals, the additional profits to business which must be enormous. How it ties into the offshoring of plants and jobs. The cost to our enviornment.
In the end my opinion is that we are not responsible for the whole world nor can we support and protect them anymore. I am sure this won't be the last word on this subject. And I know exactly how I feel about it.
Consider what you thought I said, because that wasn't what I was saying. I like you, I respect your opinions (especially when you agree with me...which of course means you are on the side of the angels)and I know you seek fairness and justice generally yourself.
First time I had to break one up!
"As to the ACLU, well they please few because they work for all"
I forgot to say that as long as they work in opposition to the American worker in supporting illegal immigration, I cannot support them. My last donation was made in 06.
In 07 when I found out what they were doing in this area and later on when they started opposing local communities (not all were wrongly opposed) on illegal immigrants and using bullying tactics they lost my respect and my money.
They aren't working for Americans in my opinon.