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Riding the Atheist Bus
It's a simple question: "Why not try Jesus?" Equally simple is an opposite: "Why believe in a god?" Yet in the United States the first question is widely viewed as positive, or at least ordinary, while the second can be perceived as offensive and even hate speech.
This
difference in reaction can't result from the structure of the
statements. They're the same. Nor can it be the tone. Nope, it's just
the message. Americans think it's good to believe in a god and bad not
to. Furthermore, it's good to tell everyone about your belief but bad
to be just as open about nonbelief or doubt - especially during the
winter holiday season. 
Clearly, American nontheists can't get a break.
We in the American Humanist Association found this out first hand when we launched our Washington DC advertising campaign on November 11 with the slogan "Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness' sake." The venue was the sides, rears and insides of 230 of the city's buses. News coverage of the campaign generated an outpouring of phone calls and e-mails, mostly negative. The largest number came directly to us but hundreds of complaints also came to Metro, the government entity that handles the city's buses and subways. One of the complainers expressed a wish (or perhaps a prayer): "May all your atheist buses break down!"
The sudden high volume of visitors to our special campaign website www.whybelieveinagod.org crashed our server twice. Soon, the conservative talkshow hosts were clamouring to give us air time so they could argue against us and further rouse their audience. And conservative Christian organisations not only denounced our efforts but encouraged their flocks to come bleat in our ears. All this before our bus ads actually started to appear one week later. By the beginning of December we'd received 37,742 hits on our campaign website, logged 638 new members and received over $6,000 in new contributions.
Now, it seems, we have a couple of competitors. The primary one, a local Catholic stay-at-home mother of four, decided to launch a counter campaign: same types of bus advertisements, same number of buses, same topic. Her slogan? "Why believe? Because I created you and I love you, for goodness' sake." The sentiment is signed, "God". The second competitor, Pennsylvania Friends of Christ, announced an ad on 10 buses that will read, "Believe in God. Christ is Christmas for goodness sake."
This led to more newspaper stories and interviews on radio and television. So much so that the company that handles bus advertising for Metro asked us this week if we would be so kind as to quantify all our results for them so they can inform would-be clients just how effective bus ads can be!
If all this buzz sounds a little familiar, it's because it is. Back in October a story in the Guardian went global about the Atheist Bus Campaign in London. The planned adverts, written by comedy writer and Guardian contributor Ariane Sherine, were designed to read: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." This was in reaction to a widely run Christian campaign threatening unbelievers with hellfire. The British Humanist Association agreed to handle the financial contributions for this effort and was able to raise a whopping £120,402 in the first month. Yet none of the adverts have actually appeared on buses, being slated to hit the streets in January.
Naturally, this excitement affected those of us planning promotional efforts for the American Humanist Association. We'd been trying to work up a splashy advertising campaign for Washington DC buses since July but hadn't figured out an ad slogan we really liked. So, when the news hit about the London plans, it became for us like an inspiration, a revelation - dare I say, a miracle?
We accelerated our work, experimenting with a range of slogans, until finally settling on the one. Then we contracted for the ad space, designed and printed the signs, bought display ads in the New York Times and Washington Post, and the rest followed.
The media is still heated up. There's more to come. But we pause amid the flurry and fury to reach our hands across the pond in gratitude and solidarity with our likeminded friends in the UK. The work of each enhances that of the other as we both let millions of atheists, agnostics and humanists know there are others like them and organisations to serve their needs and advance their ideals.
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227 Comments so far
Show AllAbout Time
Let us give these pretentious power hungry clueless folks a run for their money.
Humanity it is.
Love
Zero
You do realize that we have seen what countries are run like when there is no belief in God? Yes, there have been Christians who have not lived up to the teachings of Christ on love and mercy, but the atheists who have lived in this world have made them look like amateurs in the matters of intolerance, death dealing, and outright murder.
Humanity without God is not a pretty thing.
May I refer you to Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, and Hitler's Germany for starters. The number of people these three men killed are staggering in scope and the brutality by which they did it is stunning.
Hitler was a Christian and thought he was doing God's work. Read Mein Kampf. Stalin adopted atheism in the USSR because he wanted people addicted to soviet style communism and not religion. Put another way, he knew sheep by and large follow one master. He needed that to be the state, not the church. Atheism was just a means to an end. Mao I believe had similar thoughts. George Bush believes he's acting out God's will. And yet he's responsible for 100,000's of deaths.
No, religion is the root of most evil. And I believe Jesus would be ashamed at what Christians have done with his beliefs.
bligh4
I'm afraid Hitler was anything but a christian- In fact, he wished it to "die a quite death within the next generation". Thousands of pastors and priests were killed in the camps. Martin Borman was charged with the persecution of the Christian churchs,and worked to kill "that effeminate religion". To be a practicing Christian was seen to be the death of a German officers career.
The list goes on and on- Hitler was as much a Christian as Mao.
Mao,Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot, Ida Amin, all non-religious, all world champion murderers.
Sioux Rose
FAITHFUL CATHOLIC: Seems you're wearing quite effective blinders. Bush, a proclaimed Christian orchestrated a false basis for war that has killed over one million in Iraq, with how many thousands more in Afghanistan?
The U.S. dropped the atom bomb over two major Japanese cities, and if you read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States," you'd note that the legacy of war after war has caused the death of many million people. According to polls the U.S. is a VERY religious nation, and the majority religion IS Christian. So please, the comparisons are not flattering. Evil can flourish when people lose contact with their own goodness, and without any internal moral compass, take on the orders/rules of their "superiors" or "commanding officers," or "ministers." Until the fundamental ONENESS of mankind is understood and accepted, reasons to pit weapon against weapon, person against person will gather gravity, and grave circumstances arise from such misdirection of the human spirit.
Nice post. And what I don't get is, in one breath Christians (and really any of the big three) will tell you how we're all gods children. And in the next breath they voice support for Bushes plan to kill thousands of gods children. Like I've said many times, if it turns out there IS a god, I think she's gonna be pretty pissed at all the Christians.
Sioux Rose
KANE: I would say any who take up violence IN God's name (however they define God) are really playing their karmic hand badly... and it can take lifetimes to remedy.
"Humanity without God is not a pretty thing."
Yes, and that is exactly what we have now. God for most people is not a living Light, but dead belief. What religionists worship is not God, but their BELIEF in God. There is a BIG difference.
"Humanity without God is not a pretty thing."
Humanity with god is not very pretty if you ask me. Religion is nothing but a power thing. One man's control of another.
Rickster
>>Yes, there have been Christians who have not lived up to the teachings of Christ on love and mercy, but the atheists who have lived in this world have made them look like amateurs in the matters of intolerance, death dealing, and outright murder.
Oh please....give me a break. What utter, made up crap you post.
You seem to forget that the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and innumerable other religious-sponsored pogroms have shown time and again their lack of tolerance, their disregard for reason and humanity, and instead exhibited death, murder and slaughter in the name of the Lord, over an over, throughout history.
Again (see my other post on this above) these religious-inspired atrocities were perpetrated PRECISELY because of a church doctrine, leading to the death of many whose thoughts and actions were deemed to be heretical to the church (whether sold to the public as religious reasons or disguised as religious when the reasons were political). Christianity and other religions can indeed be directly blamed in these instances. You'll be hard pressed to find slaughter even close to such a scale that was ever committed directly in the name of atheism. I challenge you to give me an example.
Hear! Hear!
Dear Faithful Catholic - Have you ever read the history of your own Roman Catholic Church? Estimate is 5 million women were burnt at the stake to get rid of the last remnants of Paganism as the "Holy" Roman Empire expanded and also a lot more burnings and accusations of witchcraft against women to end the practice of property being left to women when they were widowed. Instead the closest male ... even a 55th cousin if that was all who was left of the family ... got the property or THE CHURCH did if there were no more heirs. Those Holy Wars did take their toll of menfolk. And that's just for starts.
Ever hear of The Inquistion? When the Western World slipped into the Dark Ages and the Moors [Muslims] took over in Spain and elsewhere in Europe, Christians and Jews were not persecuted because the Islamic religion is based on universal brotherhood and respecting the religion of others; and it was the Moors who saved all the writings and philosophies and art of Greek, Roman and the Holy Roman Empire eras, and they were no slouches either about inventing and astronomy and mathematics and literature and architecture, philosophy, etcetera.
Finally, which is the country that has attacked more countries and territories and killed off more people than any other country in the world? You guessed it! The United States of America, the most "religious" nation of the Western World. Start with those heathen 15 million Indians and go from there ... A Bible under one armpit and a shotgun under the other. Hail, Columbia ...
"Things are seldom what they seem. Skim milk masquerades as cream." Gilbert & Sullivan's "H.M.S. Pinafore"
And this is not to say I don't love my country and I am not in touch with the Spirit of Everything. IT IS ... within and beyond Everything. Some call it God; some Allah; some Yahweh; some Jehovah, some BEINGNESS, and lots more names and labels. And what I experience and have come to know personally at my little level from my various learnings and experiences, is personal, not to be imposed, and I also know that I cannot know Everything, and I'm in process ... And that's fine with me. Your being a Catholic is fine with me; someone else being an atheist is fine with me. It's really not my business what someone chooses to believe. It's only my business when whatever -ism is used as justification to exploit and beat others into submission.
The measure to me is ... is the person kind? compassionate? thoughtful? generous of spirit, and sometimes with personal or material help, if necessary? open-minded and inquiring? flexible? honest? live with integrity? Walk his/her talk? ... etcetera?
I have encountered and experienced such people, from rich to poor, who are humanists, atheists, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, Hindus, B'hais ... and if I traveled around the world, I'd bet I'd find delightful people everywhere I went no matter what religion or belief systems they held. And likely I'd find some real stinkers too no matter what religion or belief systems they held. Probably a similar balance of delightful people and some true stinkers just in the rural area in which I live.
God bless ... /cm
A friend sent a sermon to me from a christian group that called vegans and animal rights people devil worshipers.
If I had a chance to discuss this with the minister, I would say, did God or the Devil, his creation I might add, make surplus compassion? Is it possible to be too kind?
Dominionist Christianity says that we must destroy the earth because it is full of satanic wickedness.
But it also uses pride--the belief humans are better than other life,--pride is Lucifer's sin.
I would say that Dominionism is the Devil's great success--telling people that the world created by God is evil and should be destroyed.
At the heart of it, people bring their own values to the religion they follow. This is why some of the cruelest people can be secular humanists, who advocate genetic engineering or vivisection. Darwin's work was used to justify vivisection which before him had been regarded as repugnant. Both theists and secularists can use science in this way.
Both secularism and theism have a human supremacist belief at its core.
It is this belief that is the real demon.
The bus slogan "be good for goodness sake" is a sound one. But I think for some people religion is a fast food. Christianity makes it easy for people. Be wicked-but ask for forgiveness on Sunday.
As opposed to, try to be kind each day of your life.
Its very telling that some christians will say that if you dont believe in a god it encourages you to be wicked.
What they are really saying is that if they didnt believe in a god, they would be wicked, because they have selfish reasons for believing in such a being.
Personally, there may certainly be a god-or gods. Anything is possible. The green giant may be god. Or the flying spaghetti monster. Or the origins of the universe may be beyond human imagination.
Sioux Rose
WEBBER: Excellent post! The born-against call astrologers devil worshippers, too. It's the mark of such unapologetic ignorance. So many of these people are clueless, born followers who probably have never entertained an original thought of their own. Lots of people believe they are sinful, lots grow up in homes where unconditional love is never practiced. Out of wounded self-appraisals they seek those that will accept them, and once they give up their unique individuality to join the herd, they find acceptance. The mega-churches rely on this type of person. And the addicts, too... since there are few treatment programs within financial reach of many and addiction (to food, alcohol, drugs, gambling) is rampant, the church has become the ad hoc sponsor or preferred therapeutic program for lots of people. Dear fuhrer Bush used that ploy in his supposed finding Jesus to give up alcohol. What a guy, compassion r' U.S. style!
I guess I'm not actually a pagan, but some of my friends refer to me as one, and I don't mind at all. And when I hear Bill O'reilly prattle on about taking back christmas I always want to call him and tell him to take their christian holiday off of mine.
Let's see, most theologians believe that Christ was born some time in September. One point of evidence is that the bible clearly states that the shepherds were tending their flocks in the fields, something they don't do during winter. So, why is christmas celebrated on December 25? Well, back in the early days of christianity they were trying to prosletyse, as it their way, and they were having a hard time converting pagans, a very large group that they were hoping to herd into their flock. But one thing the pagans didn't want to do was give up their holidays, a big one being the winter solstice, December 21. So the church decided to make their big holiday coincide with that of the pagans, and even manyh of the traditions were passed over; I mean really, what does a lit tree and a fat guy with a beard have to do with the birth of Jesus?
So, as a pagan, I would ask that the christians get their holiday off of mine.
I am an atheist Jew. I like the word nontheist. It is bizarre to me, that in polling of Americans, the majority of people asked ( but I didn't see the list of questions):which group do you fear the most, and there was a list of religions and at the end was the group "atheist". The most feared group was atheists. Americans claim to be very religious. If they are,fine. I do not feel the need to join with others, such as Humanists, for "community", but I salute everyone's wish to do their own community association.
It's not really that bizarre. Conversatives since WW2 have been equating Communism with Atheism by always mentioning that the "official" religion of the USSR was Atheism. Communism=USSR=Atheism=BAD. It's a simple, kindergarten level of reasoning that's easily digested by the ignorant and not so ignorant masses.
Kane Jeeves:I like your analysis, mostly. It's more,too. People are scared of not having answers about the vagaries of life and the "bad" things that happen to us. I think that might be the basis for people wanting religion.
Oh absolutely. And it's an easy answer at that, versus a murky world where there are lots of gray areas to contend with.
They're afraid of dying.
"People are scared of not having answers about the vagaries of life and the "bad" things that happen to us."
Do you honestly think, an all loving god, would let bad things happen to us? God works in mysterious ways, God what an answer.
Why is God jealous?
Rickster
bligh4
Whenever anyone refers to "the masses" I cringe.
"I am an atheist Jew."
"I do not feel the need to join with others, such as Humanists, for "community""
Is that like being an atheist Christian?
Is that like being an atheist Muslim?
Is that like being an atheist Hindu?
Jews are not a race.
How are you a Jew?
Do you call yourself one to get a sense of community?
joehope:I can only speak about being an atheist Jew. What are you? Nat Hentoff also refers to himself as an atheist Jew. (check out www.democracynow.org for his interviews,transcripts of). Jews were a people before a religion. For information on this, go to (Rabbi) Harold Kushner's "To Life" where he explains it. I was asked the question, in the 1990s by a born again Christian friend who didn't know any Jews. She was African-American. I didn't know any born again people who were African-American. So I went to research and found Kushner's book. I also heard a rabbi from the Jewish Theological Seminary on the radio some years ago, who said that there are Jews who do not believe in God and that it is accepted. (Not by the most Orthodox Jews, of course.) I grew up in a religious home. At 16, I knew that I didn't believe in a God. (I'm also a feminist.)
I like your last question. I grew up as a child during WWII. My very religious grandmother, an Orthodox Jew who was a socialist at heart,too and a feminist before the word, cried a lot during the war. At the end, she collected clothing (we were poor, so I got to pick for myself an item or two) for orphans in Israel. I got sent around our apartment building with a little tin box, pishkie, to collect coins for orphans and to sell raffle tickets at the age of 6 or 7. I grew up in Brooklyn. So I have strong ties to Jews. I believe in the ethics of Judaism. ( Yes, I am appalled at what Israel is doing in re Palestine and no doubt the survivors of the Holocaust in Europe are in terrible pain. People can look at the website of Jews Against the Occupation of Palestine for more on Jews who oppose Israel's policies.)
Because Jews are such a minority in the world, and because there is so much Jew-hatred, I am public about being a Jew.(See "Constantine's Sword" book by James Carroll or the movie,same title.google) There's strong cultural NYC Jewishness, although most everybody in NYC uses some Yiddish words, like chutzpah, kosher. After growing up in Brooklyn, I was rather surprised to find out that I was a minority, ALTHOUGH, when I went to public school in NYC, Christmas was celebrated in school and I really felt painfully "other". Lastly, I grew up in an area that was half Italian Catholic and half Jews; my block was half and half. I look Italian. I never thought there was much difference between Italian Catholics and Jews (my family was E. European),which is probably why there was so much intermarriage in Brooklyn.
NYCartist,
So is it that you see yourself as culturally Jewish, but not religiously Jewish? If so, do you see yourself as being part of a NY Jewish culture or a global historical Jewish culture?
If so, how would you describe what global Jewish culture is?
I don't have time at the moment to read the literature you've recommended, I will tonight, perhaps you could summarize Nat Hentoff's or Harold Kushner's position? Do they feel Jews are a race of people, a tribe of people, an ethnic group, a religion etc...? If they are a race, what are the racial characteristics of a Jew? That view seems problematic. If they aren't a race, what is their common bond if not religion?
I'm a non-secular Christian.
"I have strong ties to Jews. I believe in the ethics of Judaism."
So do I. But does that make me a Jew? Also, how do the secular ethics of Judaism really differ from the secular ethics of Christianity? Or even Humanism?
joehope:I have pretty much covered it in my long reply. You have to look at Kushner when you are in a library or whatever. Jews were a people before they made the religion. A community. Hentoff only said that he is an atheist Jew, not more than he is a Jew and doesn't believe in God. Me,too. The common bond is being a people. Not a race, although an English scientist found a gene in Black SouthAfricans who are Jews, and the gene is the same as males of the Cohn line. It was in the NYTimes in the last decade. I did my best. Thanks for reading and thinking, Joe about what I said.
NYCartist,
Like I said, I'll get around to reading the authors you have recommended, but frankly, since I'm asking you directly, to refer me to other authors is a bit of a dodge. Imagine if you asking someone why they agreed with the Iraq war and they told your to read Bill O'Reilly (although I'm not saying the authors you recommended are as bad as him).
What do you mean by "The common bond is being a people. Not a race"?
I don't think that's clear at all. What do you mean by "a people"? Are Christians "a people"? Have Jews been the same "people" for thousands of years?
If I understand correctly, you feel the Jews are not a race (although you hinted that you believe some lineages might be). But you have stated that global Jewry (not geographically specific local Jewish cultures) is a community and Jews are a "people".
I looked up the definition for a "People".
The word means a body of persons sharing a common religion, culture, language, or inherited condition of life.
Which part of this definition applies?
Some of the definitions for "community" certainly work,
1. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community; the international business community.
2. A group viewed as forming a distinct segment of society: the gay community; the community of color.
1. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
2. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.
The problem is, that simply by saying "community", you give no indication of what it means to be a Jew. After all, nearly any group can be a community. Plus, you can leave a community. In your view, can a secular Jew leave their community a cease to be Jewish?
So although you may feel you have answered my question, unfortunately you haven't. It's actually a pretty simple question, when you say secular and non-secular Jews are a single "people" and a community, what do you mean? I suppose that is what I'm asking you, is to please define the term "secular Jew".
Can we agree that Jews do not have common ancestry, common culture, or common racial characteristics?
If you disagree with me, all I ask, is that you tell me what the common ancestry and culture is for Jews. I can't see that there is any, can you? It also seems like any attempt to describe a global Jewish community that incorporates both secular and practicing Jews would become instantly racist.
Also, you brought up your belief in "Jewish ethics", I asked how they were different from "Christian ethics" or "Humanist ethics", but you didn't respond.
JoeHope:I answered what I could. I am an atheist Jew. Reread what I said. I do not give thought to god, religion. It's not a debate for me.
Good Luck! I've gone through this debate many times myself. The best answer can give is to point out that when someone converts to Judaism they are supposed to be treated as though they are a part of the Hebrew people.
Converts adopt not only a religion but also a nation.
As for Yiddish words, the only phrase I use frequently is "oy gevalt".
Help reduce the National Debt - TAX CHURCHES!
I am a proud humanist and member of the AHA and am thrilled to finally see "the question" in print. I sent a positive comment to the DC metro system. It's liberating to tell people I believe in no god and to debate them. I'm sick and tired of having peoples' religious beliefs in my face everywhere I go - I figure it's past time to wear my beliefs openly and show that belief in no god is as valid (much more valid in my opnion) as the belief in any god. If people truly have faith in their god, they will not be afraid to see that many of us don't. I have faith in the ability of humans to think for themselves and live decent lives because it's the right thing to do to live in peace. I've never needed religion to know that. From my earliest years being raised Catholic, I never understood why I had to believe in hell to keep me from hurting others. As I became exposed to fundamentlaist Christianity, it frightened me more than the idea of hell. The idea that anyone would give up his/her thinking mind - the very thing that makes us human - was beyond belief. By the time I was 25, I was done with religion because it made no sense to me. I think it's so important at this time for all of us who are humanists/agnostics/whatever to step up and be open. The irrationality of religion has a dangerous grip on our culture, politics and educational system to the detriment of all of us. This is not a Christian nation and it's important that we be vocal about that.
Sioux Rose
Maria, one of my HS friends was also named Maria and from a strict Catholic family. This was the time period of "the sexual revolution" and after seeing the film "Romeo and Juliet" I personally could not WAIT to have sex! It seemed very natural to me (I had one boyfriend throughout HS and he was the "chosen.") In any case, Maria had anal sex and oral sex, but had to save that precious pussy believing it was God's goal for her. The paradoxes around sexuality that must twist Catholics into pretzels defies logic and to an extent, sanity. It bothered me that young women felt they had to BE virgins, but had other kinds of sex as if that was a way to accomodate their religious teachings. Bizarre!
For a note of humor, I used to tell my friends in college, "Catholics got the sex guilt, Jews got the money guilt." I would never lose a wink of sleep over sleeping with someone in college just to see what it was like in that wonderful span of true liberation for women, the birth control pill being the new key to CHOOSING partners that for CENTURIES women had been denied. But if I spent too much money, now that guilt might keep me up! Our human condition is so tragic in so many ways that it becomes funny, like the masks for tragedy and comedy in Ancient Greek theater. I suppose Jews are influential in Hollywood because having experienced so many pogroms and executions first hand, they have developed comedy the way the Hamydrius (spelling??? help!) baboon developed an Ischele colosities.
Religion has become nothing but a disease. Have you noticed this past decade that most terrorists were associated with a religion be it Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Maoism, you name it ? I have great respect for religious folks but until they grow some spine and stop allowing evil doers in their religious circles to abuse religion, I'll continue to grow less religious.
A disease as in a 'mental disorder,' but every religion (or ideology) has it's roots in the fact that people find a sense of order (even purpose) and security in their belief-it becomes a part (sometimes a big part) of their identity. Einstein said something to the effect that all religions have become little more than "superstitious nonsense" [even if they were not originally]. Rather then being a light, modern religion has led many into a dark cave, one consisting of division and hypocrisy.
What a smart banner too. Notice it didn't say "Why believe in God?" In discussion, using "God" instead of "a god" subtly implies the speaker really means "there is a single god that exists, who I refer to as God, and since you don't believe in this god that exists, you are bad". I always tell my kids, if a Christian pesters you (and they do) with "Do you believe in God?" respond with "Which one?".
As far as the hate and intolerance spewed by Christians when faced with Atheism or Sec. Humanism (the two are different), it's a simple indicator of just how weak their beliefs are. They're not objecting to an argument about a deity, they're upset about the Emperor being shown to have no clothes, so to speak.
Having been exposed, they'd have to start acting selflessly by helping others because others are inherently of value. As opposed to the way Christians act now - selfishly, because helping others is just a means to get oneself into heaven.
K.J.
re: "...it's a simple indicator of just how weak their beliefs are."
I agree. I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
All that I would ask for is that non-believers be treated as respectfully and as a viable and moral way to conduct one's life. But we shouldn't put all Christians in the same boat. I've thought about becoming a Quaker not because I believe in Jehovah but because I have great respect for AFSC's consistent ethical stance and actions.
Tom Larsen: I have friends who are American Friends. I also had a close relative who worked for the AFSC who was a Jew. The AFSC has workers of all religions and non theists. Do some visiting of an AFSC website and/or a local Friends Meeting House in your geographical area.
I am an atheist Jew with a fondness for the AFSC. Their programs are wonderful. You might also look at the FOR's www.forusa.org website. Fellowship of Reconciliation. It's religious people interested in peace. Although an atheist Jew, I know a lot of people of all kinds, who are for peace, and justice.
The question of whether there is a god or not...or should i ask do you know that god is not a man but a girl therefore god is actually a goddess and her name is eris?
but enough of my own delusions into this eternal question...i have yet to see any evidence of a god therefore it is only hypothetical that there is a god and looking at the history of organised religions it feels that the god they worship may not be the god they think they are worshipping as the amount of blood spilt in it's name could probably fill all the oceans on the planet and in my mind that a creator god would never want it's creations to be killed only a demonic force would ask for killing in it's name...anyone who has an open mind and actually asks questions rather than following blindly soon finds out that organised religion was created and controlled by the ruling elite to keep us in servitude to their agenda and uses division and fear as the main tools.
i guess until we all start thinking for ourselves and accepting that we all live life in our unique way and that just because we may have different opinions about things it's not the end of the world and definitely isn't worth hurting another for and for us to understand that we are all one with everything there is living together on one tiny fragile world so the more the world is divided by man made inventions like organised religion the worse life will become...the only way is to start thinking for yourself and ask questions about everything there is and don't fear the answers you will find no matter how hard it pushes against your belief system as it will free you from this and you will understand we are all one and what this actually means...
peace and love
Sioux Rose
POPE: Although I have made this comment in previous threads, you invited its articulation to "the uninitiated." There ARE long passages of time known as the great ages. At the onset of each one, an avatar or "Godly" figure arrives who brings a teaching that fundamentally alters the ideological template for millions. Buddha was the Avatar of the Age of Taurus, Moses for the Age of Aries when ONE God was given prominence and for Western cultures, monotheism was born. The Ten Commandments remain a fundament of Western law. The Age of Pisces, a YIN Age that was INTENDED to balance the Mars-polarity of the Age of Aries which gave Divine preference to males, particularly the first-born son(s)... arrived with Jesus, the fisher of men and therefore the inception of Christianity.
The rulers and elites of the time realized that if Jesus' teachings of turning the other cheek, forgiving your enemies, and sharing with the poor were REALLY put into practice, their whole hierarchical ponzi scheme and claim to privilege and power would collapse. As a believer in reincarnation, I offer as no hyperbole that Karl Rove (or his spiritually barren twin-equivalent) came up with the idea of using Jesus' name as endorsement, while maintaining the same polices of barbarism so popular during the Age of Aries.
While it's difficult to prove, I've spent my adult life researching the spiritual teachings of masters and teachers of a variety of cultural backgrounds and time periods, and most agree that a spiritual set of overseers tries to guide mankind in the direction of spiritual evolution. The usurpation of this plan to instead reinforce the teachings of division and separation, hatred and prejudice, have kept mankind in a state of semi-retardation. Still, luminous teachers come and many souls are already awakened and awakening... as I like to say, it is the old gods (adherence to orthodoxies based on so many false teachings and distorted claims to Divinity) that are holding humanity hostage.
We TRULY are at the cusp of Ages as Aquarius, which is all about freedom and the sisterhood/brotherhood of man. It is a confusing, disorienting phase. If an age last 2300 years, the 40-50 year interim is the cosmic equivalent of a changing of the guard. I have published a book on it although it's geared to those who understand the language of the cosmos, the astro-logos.
What utter nonsense you spout.
Sioux Rose
YOHO: Take what you want from what I write. There are many worlds that superimpose over our own. Our senses are extremely limited, we use a small portion of our brains, and much of our belief structures have been socialized/programmed/formatted from birth and there after. In short, there is much we don't know, and don't realize we don't know; nor have we the sentience to recognize this absence of cognition.
Astrology is an ancient SCIENCE that beholds the relationship of our sphere to the greater universal order. Being intelligent about mundane issues is certainly no barrier to recognizing higher organizing principles. These were banned by the church and elites long ago, a fashion that spilled over into the utterly left brain/rational realm of most of academe. The understanding has remained because any who study it with an open mind see evidence of the Truth at work in the inviolate, "As above, so below" Divine equation.
The label humanist or progressive works for me to a point, but I am a mystic. We are the first heretics and even today, have no voice in media. How can the public be educated about the higher "concordance" when the only exposure persons get are the generic popular "horoscopes" which have about as much to do with real astrology as Bush has to do with Jesus.
The nature of a forum like this one is to welcome new and iconoclastic ideas. The oldest truths never go out of style, for ALL things come full circle and all seasons adhere to the circle dances of time. Belief is not required. You age in accord with the earth's journey around the sun, and if you are a woman, your menstrual cycle accords with the moon. I have counseled hundreds of persons using astrology and MANY are profoundly moved, and quite a few have told me how significant this understanding has been to phases of inordinate challenge (some life-threatening) that they have passed through.
It is the province of an intelligent mind to seek answers. My journey extends beyond the contours of the mundane world and what our physical senses relay about it. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than dreamt of in your philosophy."
I have heard of this in various teachings... They go by many names, such as the great brotherhood... Thousands of the temples and ashrams in the Himalayas were systematically destroyed by the maoists, for the same reason that the Romans destroyed pagan temples and built their own cathedral on top of them...
Superstitious people scare me - they do horrible things to other living beings, justifying it by claiming their god(s) told them it was okay - their ego, or alter-ego, that is. Just look at the heinous acts committed by monsters using the excuse equivalent to 'the dog ate my homework' - it's heinous. And seeing little children being brain-washed with this vicious nonsense is CHILD ABUSE in my book, and should be stopped!!! Anyone beyond the 'age of reason' should be de-programmed before they harm themselves or someone else.
Psychopaths seem to love theism - especially monotheism - because it justifies their crimes. Just look at the crazies terrorizing this country - the whole world - and tell me that 'religion is harmless' - it's criminal, and should be outlawed. The same 'good' people would be just as good - and our society would be better - without the frivolous superstitions promoted by organized religion. Okay, so you want to believe in the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus, or some Sky-God - so you're mentally disturbed, ignorant, in denial, or all of the above. So what gives you the right to impose your ignorance and mental problems on the rest of us - especially gullible, easily frightened, innocent children? What gives you the right to KILL people (and other living beings) just because you're mentally unbalanced, traumatized, or brainwashed?
The WORST mistake this country ever made was to allow superstition to survive under the guise of 'religion' - just because a lot of people believe in nonsense doesn't make it right or true. And it is devastating to any society that embraces - or even enables - such superstition to continue unchallenged. One look at the facts proves that religion is harmful to society - in any event, lying is at the base of the horrible Ponzi scheme orignally used for profit and conquest. It's way past time to start putting mentally disturbed people into institutions where they can be re-educated, or at least treated for their mental illnesses. Threats of violence are the ONLY way superstition can be imposed on enlightened LOGICAL people - and these wackos claim 'peace' and 'brotherhood' are cherished values? Give me a break. Only ignorant barbarians and the mentally ill choose fantasy over reality. So let's treat them, incarcerate them, and end all this foolish madness while we still have a chance to save this planet from the superstitious barbarians.
And PLEASE stop making excuses for their insanity - it only encourages them. None of us should be tolerant of intolerance, criminality, and abuse!!!
My father always told us that 'religion is the root of all evil' - and looking throughout history, it would be hard to fault his conclusion. Giving people the 'right to be crazy' sounds good to liberals, but it doesn't work in human (or any other) societies. The ignorant savages have to be re-educated, pacified, and incarcerated until they mend their evil ways. ALL SUPERSTITION IS DANGEROUS TO SOCIETY !!! That's why religious wackos are against education! And that's why they use violence and abuse to force others to accept their perspective - no sane person would invent invisible minions that nobody else can see or hear !!! That is insanity !!! Children naturally outgrow the need for 'invisible friends' - unless they're frightened (abused, brainwashed) into infantilism. Just look at the kind of people who LEAD organized religion - vicious, vile, hate-filled sociopaths, one and all, who would bring misery, suffering, and death to all those around them. Now tell me this isn't SICK !!!
Just a reminder that Stalin, the atheist head of an atheist regime killed about 40 million people. That Mao, the atheist head of an atheist regime perpetrated the "cultural revolution". There is plenty of "insanity" to go around.
Just a reminder that that atheism was forced on people as part of the dogma of communism. Atheists/secular humanists such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, etc, are advocating education, and getting people to think about it for themselves, no forcing folks to change their mind; no asking people to subordinate their thoughts and beliefs to the state, instead of to a god.
To paraphrase Sam Harris, "Is too much skeptical inquiry REALLY what was wrong with USSR/North Korea/Nazi Germany/Khmer Rouge?"
YOU GO with your bus campaign! Let the open-ended questions flow, and let reason win.
That is a good point, fish, no group has monopoly on insanity.
Why gee whiz....you conveniently left out Hitler, who was Catholic. I guess he must have killed millions because of his religion then, if I am to agree with your idiotic excuse for what is supposed to pass for logic.
Stalin and Mao may have been athiests, but they did not perpetrate their atrocities *because* of their atheism.
You may wish to contrast their atrocities with those say....of the Spanish Inquisition. Here the Catholic church's atrocities were perpetrated PRECISELY because of a church doctrine, leading to the death of many whose thoughts and actions were deemed to be heretical. Christianity can indeed be blamed in this instance, while atheism in the examples of Mao and Stalin cannot.
Authentic religion has nothing to do with belief and/or ideology, and everything to do with self-awareness and understanding. Some might call this 'spirituality,' and it neither elevates man (as in humanism) or an imagined deity (as in theism) to the position of God. If one cannot validate something it is ultimately of little use, no? And every belief has it's opposite, that's why people fight; they tell themselves that that belief is who they are. Complete nonsense.
The technical details of religion do not interest or convince me. The use of religion as an excuse for cruelty repels me. I like the music though.
Among religious believers, not everyone is vicious or vile. Some people allow religion to create a space in which they contemplate things beyond the day to day self-absorption that we can all fall into. Religion can be a source of comfort where no earthly help exists. It can inspire people to become kinder and stronger. One example, of many, is Jimmy Carter, who has the courage to work for peace.
Atheists have every right to be atheists, and should feel much freer to say so, even when running for office. There should be no religious tests. I appeal to atheists to reciprocate with generosity towards people who believe in religion and to judge them on how they apply their beliefs.
Joe
Joe:jclientele, really nice comment. I like various religious music,too.
"It's way past time to start putting mentally disturbed people into institutions where they can be re-educated, or at least treated for their mental illnesses."
Which is a better world...?
Totalitarian atheism?
Or religious freedom for all the moonbats and their whacky gods?