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TechnoratiBound by Sorrows: India and Pakistan Are in this Together
In the rush to blame Pakistan for the terrorist atrocity in Mumbai, a dangerous mistake is being made. The impulse to implicate Pakistan is of course understandable: the past is replete with examples of Pakistani and Indian intelligence agencies working to destabilize the historical enemy across the border.
But it is too soon to know who is behind the current attacks. Some or all of the attackers may indeed come from or have supporters in Pakistan. Equally, some or all may be Indian. The desire of some in India to ascribe guilt to Pakistan before the evidence is in is, therefore, an attempt to avoid introspection.
India and Pakistan are more alike than politicians of either country tend to acknowledge. The triumphal narrative of India as an incredible success, and the defeatist narrative of Pakistan as an impending disaster are both only half true. For much of this young century, Pakistan has enjoyed economic growth rates not far behind those of India, and this year Pakistan has emulated its neighbor by returning to democracy.
India, meanwhile, is, like Pakistan, home to many simmering insurgencies. Had recent protests in Indian Kashmir occurred in a former Soviet Republic, they would have been hailed by the world as a new Orange Revolution (and had they occurred in Tibet, they would have resulted in calls for international pressure on Beijing). Similarly, the tensions in India's northeast, the armed Naxalite movement, and the slaughter of Muslims in Gujarat all run counter to the half-truth of "India shining".
Both Pakistan and India are plagued by extremist violence. Both have in their six decades of independence dramatically failed their poor. Earlier this year, the World Bank reported that half of Indian children are so malnourished their bodies fail to achieve normal size. That is twice the rate of child malnourishment found in sub-Saharan Africa.
The reason to look at the similarities between India and Pakistan is not to drag India down or to deny the wonderful accomplishments of which Indians should be proud. Rather, it is to point out that the countries are in this together. Their fights against extremism cannot be separated by national borders into convenient compartments, one marked "domestic" and the other "foreign". Just as Pakistan and Afghanistan must cooperate if they are to solve the problems of violent extremism, so must Pakistan and India.
There has never been a better time for such cooperation. The people who can best understand what the residents of Mumbai are going through are the residents of Islamabad. The destruction of the Islamabad Marriott only weeks ago foreshadowed the attacks on the Oberoi and the Taj, and the pitched gun-battle between extremists and government forces in South Mumbai has eerie echoes of last year's bloody and prolonged standoff at Islamabad's Red Mosque.
Just as Delhi has seen bombings this year, so has Lahore. Just as rogue elements of Pakistan's armed forces have been accused of supporting terrorists, so has a lieutenant colonel in the Indian army. Of course India and Pakistan are not the same, but the parallels are remarkable. Continuing to ignore this serves only to divide two countries that could benefit greatly from greater unity.
Fortunately, a coming together is possible. Pakistan is emerging from a long period of denial about its terrorism problem. The Pakistan army is engaged in a massive offensive against extremists in the tribal areas, willing to take hundreds of casualties and displace hundreds of thousands of Pakistani citizens in the process. President Zardari is extending olive branches to India in the form of calls for greater cooperation against terrorism, more economic integration, and compromises on Kashmir.
The Indian government has been slow to seize this opportunity. The Mumbai attacks now provide a perfect pretext to reject Pakistan's overtures and set in motion a train of events reminiscent of 2001, when the terrorist attack on India's parliament brought the countries to the brink of war. Such a reaction would only benefit the terrorists. It would do so directly by distracting the Pakistan army from its offensive in the tribal areas, and it would do so indirectly by turning public opinion in Pakistan, which is slowly hardening against extremism, against India instead.
The alternative is to acknowledge that - like rivers, languages, and history - terrorism ties India and Pakistan together. India cannot prosper while Pakistan festers. Pakistan cannot progress while standing in the way of India's ascent. Only by cooperating can both countries hope to achieve security and make dreams of prosperity come true for more than a small minority.
When terrorism strikes, divisive anger is a natural response. Wisdom lies, however, in realising that we of India and Pakistan are united by our shared sorrow.
62 Comments so far
Show AllJeevee
;;;;;;;The root of all "terrorism" is the desperate poverty of billions of this world's citizens. Will we ever come to realize that, rather than the megalomaniacal destructiveness of greed, CARING for ALL brings happiness for all. In simpler words, it's as true as it has been down the ages that worship of money brings death: each and every one of us is "free" to chose worship of money or worship of God, by whatever name you chose to call Him/Her. True freedom is the freedom to destroy the negativity within each of us — NOT criticism of the other fellow.
Terrorism gets a boost from crocodile-brain nationalism and superstition. The dearest hope of the terrorist is that the target will be motivated by revenge, wounded national pride or religious belief to enter into a strategically disadvantageous conflict. The US public chose crocodile thinking after 911, turning what should have been an international police action to defuse a criminal network into endless many fronted War. Now another hopeful gaggle of fanatics is praying for a similar thrashing lizard reaction from India. Civilians die and the rich get richer. Wrong reaction.
Any and all discussions of the events that treat the criminals as a Country only serves their ends. Let's shrink them with our minds and squash them with our thumbs, not elevate them into a nuclear conflict.
Borders and races and superstitions won't mean a thing when the methane burps anyway.
Sioux Rose
MAPLEFUDGE: Your post works if logic rules. Don't forget much of Hollywood foments very raw emotions like vengeance, while sports teach passionate affilitation with specific sides/teams. Many people are financially challenged these days and thanks to the smoke and mirror tactics of big media, are clueless as to the true issues causing these losses. My intelligent friends who rely on the MSM for "news" do NOT understand what's going on, and they sometimes don't want to be apprised of their conditioned ignorance, no matter how gentle I try to apply the remedy/medicine.
Playing one people against another is a VERY effective tactic if your nation's chieft product or basis for "profit" is war. Many in this forum (including myself) believe 911 was orchestrated by insiders. The goal was control of the US population, as few things provide for that objective more than fear. And when fear is the determination of government policy, intelligence is OUT OF THE question. Plus, for a nation that prides itself on a Christian identification, the lust for revenge rather than mercy or a spirit of justice was made all too ostensibly clear.
In conclusion, I agree with your ideal; but wish to point out that those in power want peace about as much as they want Dennis Kucinich to gain any air time. You'd think those who are conditioned to relate to war might frame today's great threat, climate change, as a "WAR" against climate change, and thus rally all the necessary shifts to technology and employ the legions necessary to the task of battling for changes that would prove amenable to life on a sustained basis. Instead, they use fear to terrorize their populations, and through this lowest of low motives, manipulate the money to be reserved for yet MORE weapons of mass destruction, more engineers working at more labs to contrive more artefacts of unspeakable pain... yeah, these are priorities that merit patriotism or "vote for me!"
Pakistan, the land of sorrows caused by foreign intervention, this time the purveyors of hydrochloric acid: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/opinion/30kristof.html?scp=3&sq=acid%20attck&st=cse
Mohsin Hamid's "arguments" always reduce to the childish "look what you made me (Pakistan) do!" This "author" and his hate-filled views deserve to be ostracized. Unlike Hamid on September 11, 2001, I won't be smiling when India retaliates against Pakistan. (Hamid may claim he was only writing fiction, but his co-workers can attest to the truth: He's a fundamentalist sociopath.)
I do not see anything hateful in his articles. The fact is, he seems to be promoting understanding and unity between both nations at a time when it is clear that both nations are being threatened by terrorism. Nothing inflammatory at all, and in any case he is entitled to his views.
How about changing things so that the power shifts back to the people:
http://www.thoughts.com/RedNeckPossie/blog/a-way-to-give-power-back-to-the-people-184665/
Pakistani this, Indian that, Chinese this American that..latino hispanic, Canadian, Dane , English , German..Cherokee Inuit.
We are all ONE. No people are lessor then or better then another. All that seperates us are the GODS we choose to follow and the socio-economic systems we believe in.
Until we realize and accept we are all one we can never really come to grips with what leads to the perceived differences. If we recognize all those differences are (wo)man made and created in our individual or collective heads rather then being what is REALITY then we can end all this "need" for conflict.
It should be obvious that India and Pakistan are in this together. It should also be obvious that as long as we share this same earth we are ALL in this together.
Dear sir
I would like nothing more than to follow the commonality ideology. But when you are constantly up against people who want to impose their manufactured realities on you, and will trample upon the common good, and your will because they can in these ways, you have to have a recourse.
Love
Zero
Oh i quite agree. The best recourse is to realize first and foremost who the enemy is. In so doing do not look to their skin color, or religion, whether they male or female.
The enemy is the one pocketing all of the wealth.
The problem with "the little people" is they continually battle against the other "little people" for a diminishing share of the pie while the ones working behind the scenes take everything.
Some of the responses to this article is surprising.
The author says some of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
It states that India and Pakistan are mor like each other than.....
Well, Fuck, they were the same nation until less than 70 years ago, correct? Until one politician decided divide the people worse than the British ever had to have his megalomaniac ways? the difference is that if things dont change in the financial sector, Pakistan will run out of currency in 9 months. And India will not.
The author is correct in pointing out that the two countries are tied together. In recent times, border restrictions have been eased, these incidents of terrorism have increased in India manifold.
The slaughter of Muslims in Gujarat? How many were killed? Less than a hundred. In retaliation of the unprovoked atrocities comitted by the muslims in the state. Setting a train of religious devotees on fire is a terrorist act. The muslims have killed twice as many in recent bombings - innocent people in markets.
The muslims in India have a prviliged status for the most part in India, as they are given the same selec status as scheduled casts, and are indistinguishable from the general populace, unless they decide to distinguish themselves.
Deny all the accomplishments and then say you are not denying them. Why bring up the hungry in India? There are several thousand who are being denied their basic noutrition in the United States. In India the poor have always been there. The percentage getting the noutrition they need has actually dramatically increased in the recent past.
The instigators are always Islamists. At what point does a certain sect say ENOUGH!!? At what point do you retaliate against a section of the populace you know has comitted the crime, and does nothing to denounce it, after repeated events? That refuses to co-operate and assimilate after being given every chance?
I get the feeling that muslims secretly smile after each incident like this one, and express their token public outrage. What is the rest of the world to believe? This is when thoughts of the Islamic doctrines against all other religios enter people's minds. Please, show some intiative of getting rid of this scourge that hides inside your societies. I have said this many times before on this site. The responses are typical - when someone from your community blah blah blah.....
But from no other major religion do acts so henious in nature happen with such regularity. The world must be forgiven for its finger pointing.
Here come the accusations.
Love
Zero
Thank you for the enlightenment post. Notice how most of the replies so far are baseless rant. In fact, some of these issues that you brought up about the dysfunctional nature of Muslims were brought up in other topics too but it's turned into a war zone there. Every time someone brings up the issue of genocide against Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, etc ... by the Muslims, they're attacked with a "well, the Muslims have suffered more genocides, blah blah blah". bligh4 and sandpoint brought up interesting points about the double standards. As a matter of fact, in India Muslims and Christians are given their full rights to autonomy by the corrupt government officials and the religious elites. Yet, for anyone else, they have to pay taxes big time. I'm surprised that none of the arrogant posters crying about genocide never bring this up. In fact, a Christian turned Hindu named Stephan Knapp provides the real details on the history of India:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/index.htm
You will find a lot of articles about the ongoing crisis although some things might have improved. On the left side of the site, scroll down to "Articles: Part Two" and check out those articles. The truth is horrifying and I'm still surprised that the Hindus have survived despite the major losses and marginalizations they went through. While I do not appreciate the Hindus for their stand against abortion, gays, and love marriages, there are a lot more peaceful elements of the culture that you won't find in the Muslim and Christian cultures such as polytheism. As a true progressive and liberal who believes in team work, I admire the idea of polytheism. In fact, the more non-sectarians, the less the religious violence. I also came across the history of the Vedic Era when men and women were truly treated as equals. My wife tried to bring this issue up with feminist groups but they dismissed it calling Hindus anti-women. It broke my heart that women had to be degraded towards the end of the Vedic Era. I also notice that the human rights violations against Muslim women are ignored even by the progressive/liberal community and the feminist organizations if Muslim men committed those acts whereas suddenly if it was done by Christian or Hindu men, then all of a sudden all hell breaks loose.
An enlightened post that uses generalisations in order to demonise over a billion people, ah the light is shining in.
What a hoot you are Nebraska Nathan, what fabulous critical thinking you have applied, bravo I am in awe of such a wonderous ability.
Although I trust you'll excuse me as I reject your claim of being a true progressive and a liberal. It's hard to see how such a claim can be made when your post is full of inane accusation and ignorant generalization.
Just as I expected. Using the "1 billion population" excuse to cover up for wrongdoing. Christians are also billions in population but I don't see you defending them.
"Although I trust you'll excuse me as I reject your claim of being a true progressive and a liberal. It's hard to see how such a claim can be made when your post is full of inane accusation and ignorant generalization."
Go right ahead. You blind thinking shows your ignorance so I could say the same of you.
i ain't defending anyone, i am identifying your lazy generalizations as ignorant or bigoted, although i suspect it is both. you really need to learn how to read without projecting your own skewed thoughts.
listen why don't you just have the courage of your convictions, and quit trying to hide behind some progressive veil, just spit it out fella. If you just don't like Muslims, just say it, no need to flower it up in anyway or deflect it by pointing to other monotheists.
come on fella, have some backbone will ya.
You're the one inventing false accusations of me hating Muslims which I never implied. We brought up the truth and you can't handle it but instead troll and stir up trouble. You, sir, are a disgrace.
You're the one inventing false accusations of me hating Muslims which I never implied. We brought up the truth and you can't handle it but instead troll and stir up trouble. You, sir, are a disgrace.
You mentioned the dysfunctional nature of Muslims in response to a post by Zero that makes inane generalizations about ALL Muslims. When it is pointed that such thinking is ignorant and bigoted, you initially attempted to imply that by pointing out such I am somehow 'defending' deranged murderers, and now you deny that you implied anything by calling Zero's post 'enlightened'. And what's more you now call it the 'truth', what a hoot you are fella.
Although being a hoot doesn't detract from the fact that you are advertising a fraudulent nature. I wouldn't pretend to call you 'sir', that is reserved for rational thinking adults, not those who act like children who have had their candy taken away.
Go to http://www.stephen-knapp.com/
and scroll to the bottom left side of the page and read the articles under "Articles: Part Two". The atrocities by the Christians and Muslims in India are totally unpardonable. In fact, they're just as bad as the atrocities against the civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq if not worse. Moreover, the crimes by Hindu extremist groups in the recent times pale in comparison to the long term crimes of the Christian and Muslim fundamentalists in India.
christianity also has committed many many atrocities. although i am no fan of islam, it can't be the only blamed
Don't forget that Islam and Hinduism are strongly against abortion, affirmative action, gays and lesbians, sex change, fashion freedom, and love marriages. Luckily, not all Christians share those restrictions or this nation would have been far rightist. Christianity has its good sides although I do admit so does being free of religion, right?
In Gujarat, the number of people killed in the pogroms was around 2000, not 100. Even more disturbingly, many of the riots were actually designed by the Chief Minister of the state Narendra Modi, who is treated like a celebrity by much of the Indian political establishment.
India's outspoke social activist Arundhati Roy has writted extensively about how hundreds of thousands of Gujaratis, most of them Muslims were forced out of their homes and businesses and made to live in refugee camps. The degree of judicial prosecution of the intigators of the crimes against the people of Gujarat has been underwhelming and most of the people who committed the awful crimes in Gujarat - the burning alive of innocent Muslims, the raping of women, the razing of businesses etc etc are still roaming free.
I am not sure on what basis you say ``Muslims secretly smile after incidents like this''......need I remind you in the aftermath of 9/11 and the US's so called `War on Terror'' tens of thousands of Muslims, mostly in places like Iraq and Afghanistan lost their lives even though few if any played any real part in instigating the attacks. The horrors of Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, Fallujah extraordinary rendition are well know and I need not repeat them.
Let us get some facts straight - it is debatable if the people who committed these dastardly acts in Mumbai are from India at all. In any case, when people shoot at crowds indiscriminately, there is very little way of telling what faith they are and I am sure many of the victims are indeed from Mumbai's Muslim communities. Likewise, most Indian Muslims had NOTHING to do with these heinous crimes, so for once let us focus on the real terrorists rather than making scapegoats out of the innocent.
You distort facts like Colin Powell addressing the UN
Many of the perpatrators of the crimes comitted during the riots have been bought to justice and sentenced to death.
The people who set fire to train with pilgrims on it were politically well connected and still roam free in India.
No one is condoning the village idiots actions on innocent Muslim lives.
It just happens to be that real terrorists, like I have stated before, all over the world, happen to be Islamists. They can manufacture any cause celebre for themselves, and blow themselves up .
Love
Zero
This is very interesting. I had no idea the Indian authorities did anything meaningful against the perpetrators of the Gujarat riots. Narendra Modi, the instigator in chief of the riots is still treated like a superstar by the establishment.
Could I see some evidence to this effect please. Do you have any links in this regard ?
"It just happens to be that real terrorists, like I have stated before, all over the world, happen to be Islamists. They can manufacture any cause celebre for themselves, and blow themselves up ."
Did you notice that in other topics when one brings up that valid point, he or she gets flamed? However, on another note, don't forget that Christians in North Eastern India are equally guilty and have been going on a terror spree although Stephen Knapp recently told me that some of this is being subdued.
The double standards against crime and punishment regarding religion are also obvious in the US as well. Just recently, there were incidents of rape and murder. If the victim turned out to be Muslim or Christian, then suddenly their religious groups and supporters are up in arms whereas if the victim is another religion outside the two or even an atheist, then these same people who would be up in arms would say it's the woman's fault for being raped.
I hope President Obama can do something to end this madness especially since my district went for him although the rest of the electoral votes went Mccain.
it's not a valid point, it's idiotic nonsense.
there are many terror groups around the world which have nothing to do with Islam, there are also a number of terror groups in India which also have nothing to do with Islam.
but hey don't let reality deflect you folks from advertising such ignorance.
Apparently, you didn't do your homework. Every major terrorist attack has unfortunately been linked to Islams. You and I don't like to face that truth but you cannot dispute it. Even in Pakistan, all major terrorist attacks against businesses are traced to Muslims and the country is struggling to keep afloat. I don't condone terrorists regardless of religion but you are creating distractions and giving progressives and liberals a bad name.
Actually, not all terrorists are Muslim. Most, but there are no dearth of exceptions.
For instance, Timothy McVeigh, the one who carried out the Oklahoma City Bombing. Or the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda, or the Naxalites of India, the LTTE of Sri Lanka that pioneered suicide bombings, the Shining Path of Peru, Maoists of Nepal, the IRA who Gerry Adams is treated like a star by Irish American organizations in the US, the Animal Liberation Front, and a few others.
Sioux Rose
NEBRASKA: What is your definition (is it state terrorism or excused as a blundered military maneuver, a nicely doctored terminology that seems to offset any culpability in the massive slaughter of innocents) of the U.S. direct acts of aggresion against citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan? The word "terrorist" is being misused... particularly when persons inside their own nation (or perhaps localized ghetto) FIGHT BACK against forces that either obliterate their livelihoods (slowly killing them and their families) or take more direct measures.
I can't speak about the current conditions in India as most of our news is filtered through pro-U.S./capitalism media, and our news has been anti-Muslim for some time in order to chant up the miliaristic need for an enemy (Islo-fascism nonsense).
What I can speak of is the universal response of fighting back taken by people who have otherwise been rendered powerless...
ALWAYS when violence emerges the balance of power has become too oppressive and ordinary citizens can no longer meet their meager (or beyond) needs. This is why justice, diplomacy, and fair trade deals MUST replace the carnage of global corporate capitalism without conscience.
I spent time in India in 2004, and purposely went to Bangalore as it was reputed to be the new modern mecca where computer techs were rapidly becoming an envied middle class. I was appalled by the lack of concern on the part of the fledgling middle class for their extremely impoverished fellow citizens. Perhaps living amid such poverty hardens citizens, but it was very difficult for me, as a spiritual being, to take in the view that in some respects the worst of US capitalism and its tiered classes, was finding its way into India; and worse still, that his (failed) model was being championed as the next wonder to the world. On the basis of what I saw, violence exploding there now is not surprising.
I saw the history of genocide by Muslims and Christians in southeast Asia from the articles under Stephen Knapp's site:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/ (Scroll down the website and read the articles under "Articles: Part Two")
I thought that all those genocidal crimes were just as bad as the massive genocide being done in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, Iraq used to be secular although Saddam had his issues and crimes but after the invasion, it became fundamentalist and is only getting worse what with the occupation. I could be wrong though.
As for Banglore, I was heartbroken and very angry when I came across an Indian immigrant who arrogantly told me that "those pesky farmers in Banglore were trying to stop job growth. Thank god they came clean and allowed the lands to undergo modernization." I told him that as a farmer, I am deeply offended and he and his American girlfriend derided me calling me a dumb hick farmer. I hear that in India, there are loads of land grabs being on the rise for Big Business, Religious churches and mosque, shopping malls, etc ... The road infrastructure I hear is piss poor and farmers committing suicide is on the rise. And I haven't even discussed the takeover of small family farms by agri business. I would hate to see what happened to good farming and health in America happen in India. My guess, however, is that to try to ignore religious tensions, the people will allow destruction and privatization of India will continue unabated. There could be a balanced approach but the country will be just as desperate as China and other nations in their race to the bottom global economic competition or something like that. I could be wrong though.
ah, I see now you are trying to qualify the implication 'that all terror groups, all around the world, are somehow connected to Islam'.
A little information for you in relation to terror groups in India. There is a group called the Naxalites, they're Maoist. The Prime Minister of India, Manmohan Singh, has said that this group is the most serious threat to national security. Their battles with police cause a consistent and steady death toll.
And hey guess what, they've got nothing to do with Islam or any other mono/polytheists. But hey don't let that effect the 'reality' you want to create.
Actually, they're not terrorists. They rebels fighting to get back the farmlands. I seriously doubt they'd attack big business the way Al Queda or the likes would.
Actually yes, the Naxalites are indeed terrorists. They murder policemen and businesspeople and are responsible for mayhem on a grand scale. Condoning their violent actions in the name of socio economic disparities is very wrong on your part.
Well stated.
Thank you
finger pointing at a billion plus people for the vile acts of a tiny minority, in this case 10 (repeat 10) deranged individuals.
fair enough lets use that rational in all cases.
here's one for ya - All Americans are warmongering pigs, and they should all be held accountable and punished in the severest way because of the murderous actions and decisions of their criminal leaders. They have been given the chance to remove such leaders but have repeatedly over time voted these vile inhumance corporate fascists into power, so they are all complicit. In fact Americans are worse, they pretend they are somehow morally superior because their death and murder is sanitised made look nice and clean and done under the guise of a false morality.
hows that work for ya Zero?
7% of 1 billion as indicated by a representative of American Muslims, working for the pew research center, indicated that they would blow themselves up for the cause of Islam. (Recently aired on a an alternative News program).
And the rest of the world is justified in demonizing America for its fascist actions - that is a no contest. Our Conspicously consumptive ways are not suistainable, and the government continues to conduct clandestine methods in supporting this way of life by taking innocent lives.
Guilty as charged.
Then there are people who are waking up to these methods, and are speaking up against it. They will take years to be heard. But there have always been people who have reached out.
Even here, there is no condemnation of these criminals. Instead of people like Bara and Sufi offering some condemnation of the savage acts, it seems almost being condoned. That it is justified.
In Islamic countries near the Mecca, minorities have been more or less wiped out. Religious buildings of other religions are not tolerated. It is not possible to have a large minority religion recognized in these places. If there existed such a religion, in say Saudi Arabia, and a gang of these minorities burnt a train load of people going to Mecca for Id, what do you think would happen to them? Barbarism would take on a new meaning.
Love
Zero
I see, so a researcher comes up a percentage about a billion people from all around the planet, and you offer it up as some kind of fact. How did this person come up with that number?, do you imagine they conducted a poll involving over a billion people (men women and children) across all the continents on this planet?
I suspect you, or this person you reference, picked that number out of the sky.
I have not read any posts here that have tried to justify the actions of those deranged individuals in Mumbai. What I have seen is more than one poster make spurious generalization about all Muslims. Generalizations tend to be based on ignorance, and when directed against a disparate population whose only link is religion, such generalizations quickly become nothing more than bigoted stupidity. Equally, anyone condemning ALL Americans because of the actions of American administrations, expresses the same ignorance and bigotry. Such thinking needs to be condemned whenever and wherever it occurs.
Zero, put your brain in gear before throwing out such fallacious thinking.
Proven science means nothing, I guess. Who this research was done by means nothing, I guess. It just turns to sky no matter who I mention.
By the reactions, I am guessing barra2005 is a muslim.
Identifying a people by the ideology they believe in is a practical thing to do. Because it is the ideology they ascribe to. Until they prove differently, everyone else has the right to judge the person by ideology they identify with.
If I am an American, I have the right to be judged by someone else as an American and what americans are seen doing, until I distinguish myself. If you are a muslim, the world has a right to judge you as they see muslims, until you distinguish yourself, bigotry or not.
That is what I have begging for here all the time. The world will judge you by your actions. Let us find muslims not acting in thier vile ideological push. Let us find evangelicals doing the non conversion act and taking care of their own house. Not just the token word that would sping things their way. Like Fox Fascist news. In mass numbers, in mass actions and in everyday interactions.
How common is it in these churches and mosques to see people denounce others for not being part of what they believe. The sheep just nod, play along, and fabricate their own incindieary bigotry.
Proove otherwise. En masse. Individually. Constantly. For the next few hundred years. Then perhaps we can see these cultures in the light that some of these people here want us to see them in.
Love
Zero
ah Zero, you are being presumptious now, although after your genralizising ad nauseam, i am not surprised. to ease your little mind, i am not religious at all, i'm a happy agnostic, happy to admit i do not know whether there is a deity or not.
anyhow you're deflection into personnel enquiry, albeit amusing, is irrelevant.
so we can safely say that your 7% offering is junk, glad we cleared that up.
you really should avoid generalization they merely advertise a lazy mind, and provide little or no useful information.
p% lease read my origninal post
It will prevent you from going on ad nauseum about the 7% post if you are literate.
Love
Zero
the one where you infer that Muslims 'secretly smile' where atrocities such as that in Mumbai occur. the one where you also infer that Muslims are always involved in terror activities. the one where you make lazy generalizations about all Muslims, is that the post?
if so, i already read it, and gave you a response to which you pulled some fallacious number out of the sky (i note you are trying to backtrack on that piece of sillyness).
anyhow there is no need to read such nonsense again, once was sufficient for me, thanks.
Thankfully, not all Muslims are like Barra, Sufi, and the rest of the folks who flame others like crazy for bringing up the non-biased truth. Religion in general is becoming more of a disease these days. There's just as much rightwing conservatism in Islam and Hinduism as there is in Christianity.
The further away you are from a fixed doctrine, the more pragmatic you are, the closer you are to progressive mindset.
Always in gear.
Thanks Nathan.
Love
Zero
so Zero, any further qualification about that alleged 7%, or should we just put it down to fabrication?
Thankfully, not all Muslims are like Barra, Sufi, and the rest of the folks who flame others like crazy for bringing up the non-biased truth. Religion in general is becoming more of a disease these days. There's just as much rightwing conservatism in Islam and Hinduism as there is in Christianity.
barra2005 only cries "victim" when it happens to Muslims but gives others the middle finger who don't happen to be Muslim. Keep up your puritanism and the Muslim culture will decline for future kids to visit.
projecting again Nathan1....how amusing you are.....
Very good article and I think it is very true the Indian people and Pakistani people have much in common, especially given that terrorists attacked luxury hotels in both countries. The threat of terrorism is in my opinion, one that should unite, rather than divide.
I think all nations and peoples should work together to eliminate terrorism, without blaming specific cultures for it. Why terrorists kill is beside the point, the point is, they need to be stopped.
I like the article. I'm looking forward to DemocracyNow covering the issue. www.democracynow.org will have transcripts and the show online. I am certain there will be good guests, as there have been in the past. I do not trust mainstream media in any rush for placing blame. Informed people include: Tariq Ali, Arundhati Roy and Dilip Hiro, among others.
I shall always remember that the first stories after the Oklahoma bombing in the mainstream media blamed "middle eastern Arab terrorists" and then had to backtrack. I remain suspicious until more facts are in.
Lastly,about the turmoil between India and Pakistan, I think we in the US are only bystanders, or should be, except in pressuring our legislators,etc. for what we'd like US foreign policy to be. Keeping in mind that US folks are slow on the getting informed about "foreign places" and people deemed "different".
Randi Rhodes made a great statement around the time of the US attack on Iraq, "Americans should have to learn about any place and its geography before being allowed to attack it." The people, the food...all the things we learned about other countries when we went to school.
One of the most amusing things was seeing online, recently, at the last big summit, when the President of the US walked along the line of heads of governments, I noticed the world map behind them, on the wall. It's not the Decatur map that we grew up with in school, which distorts the size of the USA, making it look much larger in relation to the rest of the world and continents than the USA/North America really are.
Correction:(with thanks to Frisbie):it's Mercator map that I meant.
Sioux Rose
NY ARTIST: I either forgot, or never heard that Oklamhoma was first blamed on Muslim terrorists... wow! Looks like the U.S. government was trying to pitch its propaganda tent on the soils of Islam way before 911... interesting, when we roll the history video into reverse and assess the tracks having been laid before a seminal event manifested.
> the Decatur map
Mercator.
Frisbie E.:thanks see above. Added as "correction" reply. I first heard about US kids learning distorted view of the US size in relation to rest of the world via distorted map, about 10 or 20 years ago when I heard an antiracism teacher on the radio. As an artist who loves maps, it really stuck in my mind. The fact popped up when I saw the video clip of Pres. Bush walking in front of the world leaders standing in front of a map that is not the traditional Mercator map used in US schools (not sure what map is used now). I have a Swedish map from, copyright 1989, by Esselte Map Service, Stockholm that is very different from the Mercator map.
You are deluding yourself; as I write this, Pakistanis have been identified as the culprits. I'm amazed only that you haven't yet found a way to blame the US for the attacks, although you're probably pondering how to do so right now. You might ask yourself, now that you're safely in the UK, after your time (safely) in the US: why do the Pakistanis hate India, Sir?
Your books are boring, your views so biased they are tiresome and timeworn, and, given your oeuvre to date, you would have been better off having gone into the law and spent your life writing interrogatories.
.Your post, in response to an article written with clarity and quite unbiased, is most unfair and tinged with the same fervor that has already resulted in far too many deaths .
You note , sans attribution I might add, that "Pakistanis" are found to be the culprits and at the same time seeking to deflect charges not yet laid against our own responsibility for violence abroad. Your last paragraph reveals volumes about you and little truth about the author.
There is a far better way to debate.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"as I write this, Pakistanis have been identified as the culprits"
Yes they have - by western propagandists. Reading our
propaganda, could there be any doubt that moslems are responsible?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/india-uncovers-hindu-terror-group-that-carried-out-b...
I hope your very germane prospective will not be lost on the Indo-Pakistani powers that be. These two countries are joined at the hip and I pray also that the trigger happy West does not seize the moment to begin bombing yet another group of "brown people" in the name of democratic nation building!
We need to ABOLISH the CIA if Pak and India are going to have any chance at reconciling. Otherwise, it's hopeless.
Would these deaths have even been reported if this hadn't taken place in luxurious business hotels? Terrorism keeps happening in India and Afghanistan the most and yet the American public is shielded from it. If it were not for the Internet, I would never have found out !
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
When we know WHY then we can work for a solution otherwise it will be self-inflicted rage that destroys everything except the problem. Who and what is behind all this turmoil?
Gilgamesh?
Can this not be said of ALL countries and peoples: "Only by cooperating can (all) countries hope to achieve security and make dreams of prosperity come true for more than a small minority." Until we realize that we must learn to share this planet, I see little hope of survival.
Peggy