All the Talk of a Depression Is, Um, Depressing
Economy Still Sinking As Obama Announces New Team and Plan
In this Thanksgiving week, a majority, perhaps, of all Americans will give thanks not only for a bountiful table, but for a transition of power in which so much hope is invested.
As the new Administration translates its campaign's lofty vision of change into a new team and concrete plans, we find that the new change-makers are largely a throw back to the old centrist Clinton Administration that took its marching orders from the corporate interests funding the Democratic Leadership Conference.
Barack Obama is now calling for a major stimulus and job creation effort, but outlining it and getting it done will be quite different and difficult. Creating two and a half million new jobs by 2011 is a good goal, but seems far off in a country where official unemployment now stands at ten million and so many need relief now. Ditto for debt relief, a topic no one is even talking about.
In the interim, as the snows come and the season turns colder, many a family will face an uncomfortable choice: "heat or eat." This could be the worst shopping season ever. 36 Million families have or are close to maxing out their credit cards.
The Democrats have always sung "happy days are here again," but it doesn't seem to be the right song for these hard times. It's taken a full year for the punditocracy to even accept that we are in a recession. Last November, the economists at investment banks (that no longer exist in their old form) had proclaimed the recession, "the R word," was already here. The press held off with constant references to a "possible recession" or the government is trying to "stave off a recession."
Part of the confusion can be attributed to how recessions are defined. The Oakland Tribune looked into this and concluded:
The truth is, nobody knows. The responsibility for declaring the stages of the business cycle is informally held by that most dreaded of concepts -- a committee of economists. The Business Cycle Dating Committee of the National Bureau of Economic Research uses several economic indicators, including personal income, unemployment, industrial production and sales and manufacturing volume, to determine the health of the economy. It's not true that they declare a recession if economic growth is negative for two quarters in a row. If it were that simple, we wouldn't need a committee.
If you want to know about the state of the economy in real time, you can't rely on the NBER.
If the NBER did the D.C. weather forecast, here's how it would work. The bureau would gather precipitation data from every neighborhood, then interview residents to make sure the data are accurate. After much deliberation, it would tell us whether it had rained last month.
Same with recessions: The NBER's pronouncements historically come long after recessions have begun, a whopping seven months on average. By the time the bureau announced the recession of 1991, it already had ended.
Back then, a year ago, the people who were living the financial crisis, and those that saw it coming, acknowledged the slow down and freeze up of the economic order. They saw the dominos falling, but were still seen as alarmists, not alarm sounders. They called the recession. Today, many of these same seers are using the D word, Depression.
And once again, no one can agree on what that would look like either, writes Michael Panzer, author of Financial Armageddon:
There is, in fact, no agreed-upon definition of what a depression is. Economists are unanimous that the Great Depression was the worst economic downturn the industrial world has ever seen, and that we haven't had a depression since, but beyond that there is not a consensus. Recessions have an official definition from the National Bureau of Economic Research, but the bureau pointedly declines to define a depression.
At the same time, economists like Nobel Laureate Joe Stiglitz says the current credit situation may be even worse:
‘This is clearly the most serious problem since the Great Depression and in some ways worse in terms of the financial institutions.' Stiglitz commented, referring to the fact that lenders are unwilling to take risks to finance each other because they no longer have complete access to their own undertakings let alone those of other institutions.
As economists debate the likelihood of a depression, most of our media highlights sunnier forecasts, perhaps to boost confidence and the sales pitches of their advertisers. They rarely offer the insights of third world analysts like Samir Amin:
Behind it, a crisis of real economy is standing out, since the financial drift was continuously asphyxiating the growth of the production basis. Solutions brought to the financial crisis can just lead to a crisis of the real economy, i.e. a relative stagnation of the production with its side effects: regression of wages, growth of unemployment, growing precariousness and aggravation of poverty in the Southern countries. We must speak now about depression and no more about recession.
And some are suggesting, not to scare us, that a depression is already here, depressing as that might sound, and hitting some parts of the country hard.
Here are twenty indicators that could lead us ever downward, from Paul Ferrell who called the dot com crash that so many experts did not see coming:
1. America's credit rating may soon be downgraded below AAA
2. Fed refusal to disclose $2 trillion loans, now the new "shadow banking system"
3. Congress has no oversight of $700 billion, and Paulson's Wall Street Trojan Horse
4. Henry Paulson flip-flops on plan to buy toxic bank assets, confusing markets
5. Goldman, Morgan lost tens of billions, but planning over $13 billion in bonuses this year
6. AIG bails big banks out of $150 billion in credit swaps, protects shareholders before taxpayers
7. American Express joins Goldman, Morgan as bank holding firms, looking for Fed money
8. Treasury sneaks corporate tax credits into bailout giveaway, shifts costs to states
9. State revenues down, taxes and debt up; hiring, spending, borrowing add even more debt
10. State, municipal, corporate pensions lost hundreds of billions on derivative swaps
11. Hedge funds: 610 in 1990, almost 10,000 now. Returns down 15%, liquidations up
12. Consumer debt way up, now at $2.5 trillion; next area for credit meltdowns
13. Fed also plans to provide billions to $3.6 trillion money-market fund industry
14. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are bleeding cash, want to tap taxpayer dollars
15. Washington manipulating data: War not $600 billion but estimates actually $3 trillion
16. Hidden costs of $700 billion bailout are likely $5 trillion; plus $1 trillion Street write-offs
17. Commodities down, resource exporters and currencies dropping, triggering a global meltdown
18. Big three automakers near bankruptcy; unions, workers, retirees will suffer
19. Corporate bond market, both junk and top-rated, slumps more than 25%
20. Retailers bankrupt: Circuit City, Sharper Image, Mervyns; mall sales in free fall
When you review these 20 developments -- and there are far more -- you have to ask yourself, realistically, what can an Obama Administration do about this multi-faceted disaster? Can token reforms by government stem the tide and solve systemic problems?
Are we expecting too much from our politicians?
Just thinking about all this leads to another kind of depression -- a personal bummer at a time when so many want to feel good about the change that is said to be coming to America. At the same time, we know that joyous events can be followed by awful letdowns -- after childbirth some women go through post-partum depression, for example, because of hormonal changes. In their case, joy turns to sadness.
The first step to avoid being disillusioned is to abandon illusions and recognize that this is a "system problem." Am I wrong?
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54 Comments so far
Show AllThis doesn't really belong on this string, but when I left the Food Bank yesterday we were out of almost everything and nothing was coming in.
PLEASE donate to your local Food Bank, I understand this is not just happening to us. Giving is down everywhere for obvious reasons, but even one can would help. Please give what you can.
Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich, Cindy Sheehan,......., the real pragmatists after all!
"No creation, no destruction, nothing has ever happened." Ramana Maharshi
Talk of a depression IS depressing. :) Watching events as they unfold is both amazing and startling, some people (including some enlightened economists) have been warning all who would listen for some time now. The talking heads on business cable networks, for the most part, certainly didn't see this coming and went out of their way to abuse guests on their programs who DID see this coming. I swear, if I heard Larry Kudlow rant on about the "Goldilocks" economy one more time - I'd jump off a roof.
We have a very, very bad time ahead of us. Like everyone else, I'd only be guessing but, barring a miracle(s), I'm thinking at least 2 years of pain which really begins in the first quarter next year. What we have experienced so far is the prelude.
Sioux Rose
RMG: The astrology suggests more than 2 hard years... maybe 4 until a real turn around, although Obama could be the one to plant seeds that bear great fruit IN about that amount of time. Someone's got to change policy, "plant" new seeds if there is to be a turn-around.
Thanks Sioux Rose, astrology also told me something very vague about how my day would go. Vague enough that at the end of the day I'll probably be able to stretch some of the day's events so they'll be able to fit. THANK YOU ASTROLOGY!
"The responsibility for declaring the stages of the business cycle is informally held by that most dreaded of concepts -- a committee of economists."
Science studies showed economists have a lower record of correct predictions than do bookies.
"The first step to avoid being disillusioned is to abandon illusions and recognize that this is a "system problem." Am I wrong?"
You're right. Employing economists to fix ecological problems is like having witch doctors do open heart surgery. The ecological problems of too many humans competing for depleting resources hoarded by a tiny few.
"Science studies showed economists have a lower record of correct predictions than do bookies."
Correct. The average Economist correctly predicted 11 out of the last 5 recessions.
It's tough to account for how you think humans may react to various changes that may happen.
"The average Economist correctly predicted 11 out of the last 5 recessions".
If you think about that, it's pretty funny.
Sioux Rose
REBEL: I presumed it was a misprint?
No, it's a joke. Here are a couple other Economist type jokes:
Harry Trumann quipped that given the "OTOH" aspect of Economists he longed for one with just one arm.
Two guys are walking by a luxury car dealership, and a particularly nice model is right out front. The first guy says "I *really* want that car". The second guy, an Economist, replies, "Obviously you do not".
One guy says to the other, "Statistics show that in New York City a man is hit by a car every twenty minutes". The other guy, not an Economist, says, "I'll bet he gets awfully tired of that."
Economists are people who are very good with numbers who don't have the dynamic personality required for general ledger accounting.
Sioux, yes I presumed so also, it still made me laugh, (it was late),it sounded like what my daughter once said when I was trying to make some point, "what's the difference, it's six of one or a dozen of the other?".
Nine fourths of the population don't understand ratios, and 58% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Depression:
6. Diminution, as of trade, etc.; inactivity; dullness.
[1913 Webster]
*
The consumer credit meltdown will hit when the bills for holiday credit card purchases hit. I think that will have a bigger ripple effect than the falling financials. But there is a solution, universal, single-payer healthcare. That takes a tremendous load off the industries and people facing huge medical bills. Another article on CD about harnessing the sun in Spain to generate electricity points towards another solution. The American southwest is mostly empty. A great place for solar farms. The article spoke about a electrical supergrid. Time to seriously upgrade our infrastructure. Unfortunately, America can only get leaders with short-term vision and their “solution” to the crises is to throw money at the biggest targets they find: people who already have more money than they could finish spending in their lifetimes.
*no I don't have a copy of said 1913 Webster's dictionary. It's from Ubuntu's software repositories.
That's quite a list, the twenty commandments.
What's going on in DC is a feeding frenzy and the American taxpayer is on the menu.
Let's all just call in well for a year and see what happens.
Bush bucks are only a state of mind now - they have no real value anymore.
depression can be solved by listening to happy music, speaking of eternal love and bliss. i choose to listen to the small music that reminds myself of how much work we could do to fix the issues facing us, this material is not puking sunshine and is depressing. there is a time to mask how much trouble we are in and there is a day like today... where we become active in the hope that there is a future. we make our futures, not the money we use. let them watch as we solve the problems that are impacting everyone. i feel that we the usa have a choice to lead with no fear, or let the others fall and drag us with them.
second post ever. hope we have time to talk more...
voidwinterzombie:welcome. When you read comments, notice that some people have certain recurring themes. (I'm still fairly new.) Some folks are nasty. "We make our futures" is not clear, since there's unexpected events, but I am alternating hopeful and worrying about economics/a depression.
The word "gratitude" in America is a pure joke word and so is "Thanksgiving" because nobody's thanking the Iraqis for giving up their lives to let us steal their oil just like nobody ever thanked the native American Indians but instead slaughtered them in return for being helped. The only time when America wasn't so yankee self-confident was during the Great Depression Era. Come on Danny, let America be PUNISHED to another Great Depression. This country is in deep trouble for causing too many wars and being an economic menace to herself and other nations. I say let China, Japan, India, Russia, etc ... shackle America to her ankles and wrists and for all the "free" trade pimping, put her to a chastity belt for the next decade and make her learn ! I'm sorry but we Americans need to be THOROUGHLY disciplined until we can learn the true meanings of suffering, gratitude, peace, love, and understanding even if it takes cruel punishment in chains !
Dear Carla Waters,
You're wishing extreme poverty, suffering and starvation on the majority of American people as the means required for Americans to gain a sense of humility vis a vis foreign relations?
Granted the American populace wasn't "so yankee self-confident" during the Great Depression, how long did that collective attitude last after prosperity had returned?
Isn't asserting that a group of people, in this case US nationals, should come to some form of harm ("...let America be PUNISHED") considered hate speech?
"You're wishing extreme poverty, suffering and starvation on the majority of American people as the means required for Americans to gain a sense of humility vis a vis foreign relations?"
Excuse me? I don't like to wish people hell but they're asking for it by taking everything for granted. Despite the horrible economy and the fact that we're a miserable failure in our standing in the world, everybody's still slopping like there's no tomorrow. They act so fucking deluded and think they can "fly" like Peter Pan and be "rich" as Trump with some magic "free" market and tax cuts for the wealthy. At this point, the electorate is so dysfunctional that it needs to be grounded for a while until they can get some sanity first and quit being a bunch of fluzies.
"Isn't asserting that a group of people, in this case US nationals, should come to some form of harm ("...let America be PUNISHED") considered hate speech?"
No, it's not called hate speech. It's called D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E. Now, there are those who had no reason to suffer and I'm ready to defend them any time. But people who take money for granted and act self-deluded all the while damaging their own future and dragging others into this mess don't deserve any mercy.
"No, it's not called hate speech. It's called D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E. Now, there are those who had no reason to suffer and I'm ready to defend them any time. But people who take money for granted and act self-deluded all the while damaging their own future and dragging others into this mess don't deserve any mercy."
I'm sorry but the depression you're wishing on the nation will affect tens of millions of people who don't "take money for granted and act self-deluded" and there's nothing you can do to help them. According to your logic justice is punishing the few criminals even if it affects the many innocent.... lovely.
And "progressives" wonder why they are disdained, ignored, hated by everyone else.
Hint, whether you like it or not, the American economy has a tremendous influence on the world economy. Much of Asia is also either already in recession, or is looking at recession. And Russia is also starting to face problems. So, sadly for you, your hopes won't be fulfilled.
And please, the idea of the Chinese teaching the US about gratitude, peace, love? Are these the same Chinese who deny the right to self determination to the Tibetans and the Taiwanese? The same Chinese who heavily censor speech? Just so we are clear.
"And "progressives" wonder why they are disdained, ignored, hated by everyone else."
Oh really? It's not as if "conservatives", especially the foam-at-the-mouth ones, are any better. Thank heavens this country's finally starting to realize that "conservatism" has crippled this country big time to the point of turning this nation into a dysfunctional fluzie !
"Asia is also either already in recession, or is looking at recession. And Russia is also starting to face problems. So, sadly for you, your hopes won't be fulfilled"
You got it all backwards. Russia and much of Asia are suffering not because of the US but because of their own issues and depending on the US never helped them. They can easily shut this country down anytime they wish and you know it. Hell, the US cannot even think of trying to bully Iran because she knows she'll be finished if she dares ! The Chinese and Russians have already gotten a hold of most of our military secrets, our jobs, technology, etc ... that they'd have nothing to lose the minute they left you dry but you'd be screaming louder than a squealing pig !
"the American economy has a tremendous influence on the world economy. "
Not necessarily. With more countries stepping away from fossil fuels and even nuclear baloney and switching to alternative renewable sources of energy and improving their own road and public infrastructure while America keeps sinking in Iraq, America's losing its grip on its control so get over it. It can do well on its own.
"And please, the idea of the Chinese teaching the US about gratitude, peace, love? Are these the same Chinese who deny the right to self determination to the Tibetans and the Taiwanese? The same Chinese who heavily censor speech?"
That's not what I was referring to. Apparently, you take "freedom" for granted that a shackling would be good for you. And you're supporting their evil ways by signing on to the "free" trade scams and always begging for "cheap cheap cheap". Maybe if you'd learn to focus on quality instead of quantity, the Chinese wouldn't be sucking the cash out of you. At least I took the time to know better places to shop at while you probably go hopping over to Walmart to get your "cheap" shit.
"Oh really? It's not as if "conservatives", especially the foam-at-the-mouth ones, are any better. Thank heavens this country's finally starting to realize that "conservatism" has crippled this country big time to the point of turning this nation into a dysfunctional fluzie !"
Yes, "conservatives" have behaved idiotically. Thus, they are hated. So, "progressives" should follow their shining example?
"You got it all backwards. Russia and much of Asia are suffering not because of the US but because of their own issues and depending on the US never helped them. They can easily shut this country down anytime they wish and you know it."
No, you've got it backwards. Russia depends a lot on exporting it's natural resources. With the global economy going down the drain, prices and demand of those resources have gone down. Before the current slump, the Russians were using their control of energy resources to throw their weight around in Europe, much of the EU depends on Russia for energy, causing concern in many EU countries about energy security. Now, they have started to be more conciliatory, more willing to talk and negotiate.
And much of Asia exports a huge amount of goods to the US. If the US is not buying those goods, Asian economies go down the drain. Look at how each time US stocks struggle, various stock markets are over Asia, whether the Nikkei, the Hang Seng, etc, all also go down the drain.
And you do concede that Russia and much of Asia is starting to struggle. How pray tell are they going to "shut down" the US then?
"Hell, the US cannot even think of trying to bully Iran because she knows she'll be finished if she dares ! "
What exactly has the US been doing this last 3 decades other than bullying Iran?
"Not necessarily. With more countries stepping away from fossil fuels and even nuclear baloney and switching to alternative renewable sources of energy and improving their own road and public infrastructure while America keeps sinking in Iraq, America's losing its grip on its control so get over it. It can do well on its own."
Let's accept your contention that countries are stepping away from fossil fuels. Though if you've ever actually been to China, or much of the newly industrialised Asian countries, you might start realising that you're living in a dream. Dependable, reliable, extensive public transit in much of Asia is a wet dream. But, let's accept your proposition for the moment. What does that have to do with American influence on the global economy, pray tell? America is not exporting nuclear power, or fossil fuels to India, China, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. No, it is those countries that exporting their goods to the US. Whenever the US economy goes into a slump, and Americans buy less of goods from those countries, the economies of those countries also go into a slump.
"That's not what I was referring to. Apparently, you take "freedom" for granted that a shackling would be good for you. And you're supporting their evil ways by signing on to the "free" trade scams and always begging for "cheap cheap cheap".Maybe if you'd learn to focus on quality instead of quantity, the Chinese wouldn't be sucking the cash out of you. At least I took the time to know better places to shop at while you probably go hopping over to Walmart to get your "cheap" shit."
What exactly are you referring to then? The US has NOTHING to learn from the Chinese. However bad the US is, the Chinese are MUCH MUCH worse.
Also, I refuse to buy anything Chinese out of principle. And have done so for years.
"Russia depends a lot on exporting it's natural resources."
The country was doing fine before it went out of its way with natural resources. The only people who benefit there are the oil giants. The people don't.
"With the global economy going down the drain, prices and demand of those resources have gone down."
The only reason those prices went down is election season. It'll go back up as they return to scarce levels regardless of everything else.
"Before the current slump, the Russians were using their control of energy resources to throw their weight around in Europe, much of the EU depends on Russia for energy, causing concern in many EU countries about energy security. Now, they have started to be more conciliatory, more willing to talk and negotiate."
EU is making its moves to be energy independent by putting more emphasis on solar and wind. Heck, add in hemp and petroleum would lose its dominance all the way.
"Also, I refuse to buy anything Chinese out of principle. And have done so for years."
It's mighty tough to finding a single item these days not made in China. Cancel that "free" trade scam and those poor souls can get a real life off the slave labor camps.
"Let's accept your contention that countries are stepping away from fossil fuels."
Ever heard of HEMP? Do some research on it and you'll find out why the fossil fuel giants went out of their way to ban it. Legalize that plant for its 26000 industrial uses and we can leave the fossil fuels alone for a change.
"Though if you've ever actually been to China, or much of the newly industrialised Asian countries, you might start realising that you're living in a dream."
Excuse me but we're not in a "free" market but a RIGGED one. Industrialization doesn't mean shoving everyone into a car and putting them through high volume traffic hell.
"The US has NOTHING to learn from the Chinese."
Oh yes it does. She has a hell of a lot to learn about losing freedom or worse, the meaning of it. And this country's already borrowing learning from the Chinese the tricks of the trade on censorship big time and even tougher ways to do it on the Internet.
"However bad the US is, the Chinese are MUCH MUCH worse."
So let me get this straight. You would much rather delude yourself into believing that no matter how worse off this nation's getting, it somehow is still "good" just because it doesn't look as bad as China? This country's been sinking for the last 8 years if not longer. At this point, China pretty much has control of our debt that we couldn't win against them unless you want to delude yourself into thinking that you'll "Peter Pan" your way out of it.
"Dependable, reliable, extensive public transit in much of Asia is a wet dream."
Oh no it is not. More countries are doing it. It's just that Big Oil, Coal, and Auto refused to allow mass transit much of a chance at the market which is why the infrastructure was pushing into languishing for the past 28 years. If gubbmint were doing to Big Auto what they did and continue to do to metro, gas would never be aritificially "cheap" to begin with. In Europe, public transportation is a hell of a lot better and even in India it's not so bad.
"What does that have to do with American influence on the global economy, pray tell? America is not exporting nuclear power, or fossil fuels to India, China, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. No, it is those countries that exporting their goods to the US. Whenever the US economy goes into a slump, and Americans buy less of goods from those countries, the economies of those countries also go into a slump."
Again, typical economic propaganda. Spending does not drive the economy other than off the cliff in the long run if gone haywire. Here's an article to prove it:
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v6iNOV232008Economy.htm
Just because the US doesn't go into a slump doesn't mean others follow suit. Sure, America spends the most but in no way does that mean that other countries will slump just because America doesn't buy the most. In any case, even when America does buy big from those countries, the money never goes to the working class in those countries anyway. The only "economy" you appear to be referring to is the same old pie-in-the-sky baloney and even that is crashing.
"The country was doing fine before it went out of its way with natural resources. The only people who benefit there are the oil giants. The people don't."
And this changes my point, HOW? You want Russia to teach the US a lesson. Well, without the money from the sale of natural resources, the Russians DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY to teach the US a lesson.
Also, the idea that Russian was doing "fine" is deluded. How many Russians, Russians who left the country for a better life do you actually know?
"The only reason those prices went down is election season. It'll go back up as they return to scarce levels regardless of everything else."
Hint, those prices are going down ALL OVER THE WORLD. And prices aren't only affected by scarcity. If there is little demand, the scarcity won't matter. This is basic economics.
"EU is making its moves to be energy independent by putting more emphasis on solar and wind. Heck, add in hemp and petroleum would lose its dominance all the way."
And this affects the point of Russia being more conciliatory, and not being able to teach the US a lesson, HOW?
"It's mighty tough to finding a single item these days not made in China. Cancel that "free" trade scam and those poor souls can get a real life off the slave labor camps."
How about allowing "those poor souls" to choose the "real lives" that they want to lead? Or is that too much for "progressives" who always know better than the people themselves what is good for them?
"Ever heard of HEMP? Do some research on it and you'll find out why the fossil fuel giants went out of their way to ban it. Legalize that plant for its 26000 industrial uses and we can leave the fossil fuels alone for a change."
How many countries are using HEMP? WTF does hemp have to do with your contention that countries all over the world are moving away from fossil fuels. Is China using hemp? India? Russia?
"Excuse me but we're not in a "free" market but a RIGGED one. Industrialization doesn't mean shoving everyone into a car and putting them through high volume traffic hell."
Again, you're ignoring my point. It's WORSE in many of the Asian countries.
"At this point, China pretty much has control of our debt that we couldn't win against them unless you want to delude yourself into thinking that you'll "Peter Pan" your way out of it."
In a war, paper debt is worthless. If the US chooses to tell the Chinese to go f**k off, there's nothing that the Chinese can do about the paper debt.
"Oh no it is not. More countries are doing it. It's just that Big Oil, Coal, and Auto refused to allow mass transit much of a chance at the market which is why the infrastructure was pushing into languishing for the past 28 years. If gubbmint were doing to Big Auto what they did and continue to do to metro, gas would never be aritificially "cheap" to begin with. In Europe, public transportation is a hell of a lot better and even in India it's not so bad."
Which ASIAN countries are these? Please stick to the point. We're not talking about the western European countries. We're talking about the Asian countries. Have you actually been to China? Honk Kong? Thailand? Indonesia? Malaysia? India? I have.
"Again, typical economic propaganda. Spending does not drive the economy other than off the cliff in the long run if gone haywire. Here's an article to prove it:"
Again, typical "progressive" propaganda. Your article "proves" nothing. It's an opinion piece, nothing more.
"Just because the US doesn't go into a slump doesn't mean others follow suit. Sure, America spends the most but in no way does that mean that other countries will slump just because America doesn't buy the most. In any case, even when America does buy big from those countries, the money never goes to the working class in those countries anyway."
Typical "progressive" propaganda of someone who's never been to those countries.
"And this changes my point, HOW? You want Russia to teach the US a lesson. Well, without the money from the sale of natural resources, the Russians DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY to teach the US a lesson."
Wrong. They have everything against us to teach us a lesson. The US is already backing off the idea of even using Georgia as a proxy war. Gas prices would rise otherwise.
"How many countries are using HEMP? WTF does hemp have to do with your contention that countries all over the world are moving away from fossil fuels. Is China using hemp? India? Russia?"
Believe it or not, a lot of stuff being made in China for you are starting to be made with hemp. It won't be long until they find out that it can be used for fuel to replace petroleum.
"Hint, those prices are going down ALL OVER THE WORLD. And prices aren't only affected by scarcity. If there is little demand, the scarcity won't matter. This is basic economics."
They're not staying down. Again it's artificial and you know it. Demand will only go down when the gas/energy guzzlers go and you know it.
"In a war, paper debt is worthless. If the US chooses to tell the Chinese to go f**k off, there's nothing that the Chinese can do about the paper debt."
You wish. If the US could do so they would already have but they know that China won't let the US get away with it. In fact, the Chinese are already retaliating by closing down on US imports and giving Pakistan and Venezuela nuclear WMDs.
"Which ASIAN countries are these? Please stick to the point. We're not talking about the western European countries. We're talking about the Asian countries. Have you actually been to China? Honk Kong? Thailand? Indonesia? Malaysia? India? I have."
You haven't been to any of those countries. In fact, you're too busy listening to rightwing propaganda to even make a point. The economy is in shambles and you know it. If you want to think that you can fly like Peter Pan, be my guest but you're too deluded. Oh, and you'd much rather side with Islamofascists.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Carla.
We've tricked, slighted, weaseled, screwed, ripped-off, looted, destroyed, injured, bullied, savaged and murdered so many in our nation's short life, its mind boggling. How could one nation could be responsible for so much carnage, only history will tell, I guess.
We've had it coming and we're gonna get it.
thanks i'll pass on that. i already have been through that in childhood with abuse and neglect. it's easy to say we should be punished terribly, another thing when you see it actually happen.
I've been through childhood abuse as well as was my mother from my then sick-minded father who used to abuse Christianity to physically and mentally abuse us. My boyfriend in high school who I later married was the son of one of the cops who was able to rescue my mother from being sacrificed from my then abusive father. I take it you're an atheist. If so, you got company. My mother and I turned atheist after he had to go to prison for 15 years. He got out after 5 years because of good behavior and surprisingly he was reformed. I think his experience in chains taught him an invaluable lesson which explains why he never stopped lamenting and regretting his abusing us in chains. Two years after he was released, my parents remarried and my father turned out to be an incredibly soft-hearted man. To this very day, he's shown no signs of cruelty against my mother or I although I live in Northern VA while my parents live in Louisiana. He's still religious but he's tolerant and completely understands why we've stuck to atheism. I deeply apologize for sounding too cruel but sometimes the only way others will taking suffering seriously is if they experience it. I think we good liberals have tried to avert a crisis but this country takes everything for granted and gives no thanks for anything so at times I feel that this country will have to learn the hard way again. :=(
Carla Waters: I have read several of your comments. I have empathy for your suffering. I have had crises, including ongoing severe health issue. I do not wish suffering on others. "..this country will have to learn the hard way again." you write. I know you are aware that there are millions who are poor in this country and suffering.
This morning, on DemocracyNow, Amy Goodman was interviewing the author of "A People's History of Poverty". I think the author said there are 35 million poor people in the U.S. (And I'm an atheist Jew.) Thank you for your personal story. Those stories are not easy to tell.
Ahhh, I begin to understand you. As an ATHIEST, you obviously have no religious Messiah. No Jesus or Mohamed for you.
So that explains your almost religious devotion to Hugo Chavez, your very own persona (and secular) Messiah.
Religious devotion to Chavez? LOL !! You're a complete maroon alright ! The only one who's so devoted to Chavez are perennial foam-at-the-mouth rightwing lunatics such as yourself. You're so busy getting angry at him you keep giving him more money to fill up your gas guzzler ! I'm proud atheist and I'd rather have Hugo Chavez than King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia or the Republican assholes anyday ! LOL !!
Sioux Rose
CARLA: Do you know the allegory about the blind man and the elephant? It essentially points out that wherever "contact" is made, an assumption about the whole entity emerges. If someone touched the trunk they'd have a different perspective say, then touching the tail. I point this out because your father's redemption story could classify as a spiritual miracle, and induce some to release the pain of the past into the beauty of the present. I know a German guy in the Keys whose father was a Nazi, and ended up a drunk in the gutter. And who do you suppose lent this man a chance for rebirth? A Jewish woman. When I hear these stories it reinforces my belief in a spiritually Divine force that lends order to our existences, promises paths out of cruelty and chaos. Often these processes take lifetimes to be fulfilled, but when we're given the grace to witness such a tranformation (not unlike the parable of the Prodigal son) in our lifetimes, that is HIGH stuff.
I date a young man who's filled with anger. He was put in jail once for getting too far with child support payments. I thought sexual healing would be enough but he so soon returns to his angry state, that it's made me wonder about this. A friend of mine was married to a guy like this (I think there are many), and she got him to go to a therapist. Every anecdote the therapist used to trigger an emotional response only met with one: Anger. I now believe that anger is the defensive shield put around the psyche of one who cannot deal with the grief or sorrow of their own failed expectations and broken dreams. To be a balanced human being we have to accept our losses and understand that life is not about the fulfillment of our specific fantasies, but how we grow from the journey. It's no accident that EVERY real spiritual prophet/teacher/avatar has taught forgiveness as a staple to each soul's evolution.
Hmmm, you could say my father was reborn in a mental sense if not physical. I don't know what spiritual miracle rescued my father but my mother and sometimes I still think that it was more than the bars and chains which actually reformed him. What was most surprising to me, however, was more than his unusual reformed behavior after 5 years, my mother actually visited him so often and then the two just couldn't stay seperated any longer especially since dad had nowhere to go. I was afraid to see him even as a teen at first but I think he's kept his cool. My mother told me that when they got remarried, they were actually in love for the first time and it wasn't even the flakey type. He used to not let my mother's family visit but now he doesn't mind getting free therapy from them.
"I now believe that anger is the defensive shield put around the psyche of one who cannot deal with the grief or sorrow of their own failed expectations and broken dreams."
That might explain how my father had gotten worse every year of his life until he was finally taken in. His parents were mean to him when he was born and after his parents, both were rich by the way, divorced shamelessly, he was left for adoption at the age of 5 and he never got to see them again.
He has announced that he will not implement some of his tax proposals. Mostly those that would take away from the rich. Think the opposite of Robin Hood.
Hoa binh
Gotcha, thanks.
Investment in local economies, green conversion... can it happen? http://www.pambazuka.org/en/category/letters/51604
We won't have a depression....I'm fairly sure.
All Obama needs to do along with Congress is let the Bush tax cuts expire and restore some of the middle class cuts that were in there.
What? He already promised to defer Bush's tax cuts for those making over 250k for at least a year into his office. If I know the Democrats as I think they do, then by the time it expires, they'll let the GOP threaten them into extending it. That way, the GOP gets what it wants and the Democrats keep their seats. I don't know about you but I think we're all going to be shackled to miserable losers' status. :=(
I have to admit that I feel bad for Obama. Again as I have said before, I am not in agreement with the Majority of his views or appointments. I tend to float towards more progressives.
But in any case. He is doomed. Every decision he makes will be the wrong one, every choice the wrong one, and every thing he doesn't do people will say he should have, and so on...
We allowed GWB to have a full 8 years to sink the country in to the void. And now we are just going to shift our anger and frustration towards Obama. Even though shortly GWB will be off in Neverland to relax.
One administration got into office, with the help of Reps and Dems. Managed to single handedly collapse the world.
Got to say that is pretty amazing.
As bad as Bush is, it's not entirely his fault. The housing bubble was a considerable setback to the economy by itself, but not nearly enough to melt down the global financial system. Deregulation passed during the Clinton years gave us totally unregulated derivatives trading, which helped to freeze up the credit markets earlier this year.
As bad as Bush is, it's not entirely his fault. The housing bubble was a considerable setback to the economy by itself, but not nearly enough to melt down the global financial system. Deregulation passed during the Clinton years gave us totally unregulated derivatives trading, which helped to freeze up the credit markets earlier this year.
Agreed the housing bubble was a succesful bipartisan effort. Both parties worked together to succesfully destroy the economy and make Wall Street, "their contributors" or in the immortal words of Dubya their "base" rich. Dodd and Frank are just as bad as the republicans on this one.
Agreed the housing bubble was a succesful bipartisan effort. Both parties worked together to succesfully destroy the economy and make Wall Street, "their contributors" or in the immortal words of Dubya their "base" rich. Dodd and Frank are just as bad as the republicans on this one.
Agreed the housing bubble was a succesful bipartisan effort. Both parties worked together to succesfully destroy the economy and make Wall Street, "their contributors" or in the immortal words of Dubya their "base" rich. Dodd and Frank are just as bad as the republicans on this one.
There's a cartoon in the New Yorker showing a woman at her psychiatrist's office. She lies on the couch with a blank expression, while her shrink says "You're a Democrat & you've won. How does that make you feel?"
The resemblance between absolutist abolitionists at the time of Lincoln's first election & the present-day kvetchers is pronounced. Obama BEAT the Clinton-Blue Dog machine to get the nomination; he is far from a pure progressive, but his appointments don't imply anything more than the need to employ those he defeated in ways that will keep the coalition that vanquished the Reptlicans together.
The people who will complain the loudest will be those who lack the ability to address people who are not as progressive as they are -- those who can only preach to the choir.
Saint-Just sez: "... his appointments don't imply anything more than the need to employ those he defeated in ways that will keep the coalition that vanquished the Reptlicans together."
***
Pardon the cynic in me leaking out here, but ... a) your description suggests a "coalition" built for political (continuing to pound Republicans in 2010, 2012 and beyond) rather than policy (doing anything for the benefit of citizens) ends; and b) your "coalition" is devoid of a single recognizable progressive and is instead a wholly-owned subsidiary of the DLC, rendering the term "coalition" meaningless.
p.s. The coalition that actually vanquished the Reptlicans was made up of "Tater" Cheney, his sock puppet and John McCain, who thwarted the best efforts of Bible Spice and her base.
Saint-Just:kvetching is good for the spirit/soul. Did you ever hear Steve Post on the radio say how annoyed he is with people who make "kvetch" into two syllables: k and vetch?
Nice comment.
Thomas More:I realize your comment was for Saint-Just's comment.
Yep, doggoneit, I keep forgetting to put the name at the top. Thanks for the kind reminder.
It's depressing to some but it's devastating to the middle-class and poor. The rich are running to D.C. to get their welfare checks while the middle-class is being forced to pay for it. The rich got who they want for president. Already Obama is delaying any tax cuts for the rich. We are only changing kings, not kingdoms.
Hoa binh
since1492
"Already Obama is delaying any tax cuts for the rich."
He's not in office yet. What are you talking about?
On the campaign trail Obama flipped even on the issue of rescinding the tax cuts for the uber-wealthy.