Remember Iraq?
The drop in violence has made the war an afterthought -- and allowed McCain to claim we're "winning." Here's why we're not -- and we can't.
With Congress rejecting the $700 billion bailout package, the Dow falling 700 points and the U.S. economy on the edge of a cliff, no one is paying much attention to Iraq. Money talks, and incomprehensible and endless wars walk. From a purely financial perspective, that dismissive attitude makes no sense. The Iraq war has already cost almost $700 billion, and as Joseph Stiglitz and Linda J. Bilmes have argued, its total cost, factoring in huge back-end costs like disability payments, could end up exceeding $3 trillion. As Tom Engelhardt and Chalmers Johnson point out on TomDispatch, the money we've poured and are continuing to pour down the bottomless pit of Iraq, to the tune of $10 billion a month, could have bailed us out many times over.
But of course, the Iraq war is about a lot more than money. It's about the 146,000 U.S. troops still stationed there, and their families. It's about the stability of the Middle East, and our vital national interest in ensuring that it does not explode. It's about the overall direction of our foreign policy. It's about how America is perceived throughout the world. And it's about the fate of Iraq itself, a nation that our invasion devastated and that we owe our best efforts to rebuild.
Along with fixing our economy, then, what we should do about Iraq is the most important issue facing the country. And the choices offered by the two presidential candidates could not be more different. John McCain will continue the same policies as George W. Bush. He insists that Iraq remains "the central front in the war on terror," claims that the surge was a decisive turning point and that we are now winning the war, and warns that if America elects Barack Obama, we will lose, with catastrophic consequences. Obama argues that the war was a mistake to begin with, that it led us to "take our eye off the ball" and allow Osama bin Laden to escape and al-Qaida to regroup, and that it has strengthened Iran. He says that if elected he will withdraw American troops in stages over a 16-month period.
The first presidential debate highlighted these clear differences between Obama and McCain. But, unfortunately, Obama did not really challenge McCain's central claim that we are "winning" in Iraq. There are good political reasons why he didn't: The fact that he opposed a war that McCain ardently supported, and that most Americans have long turned against, allowed him to win the debate without venturing onto that dangerous terrain. But as a result, McCain's exaggerated claims about the surge, and his larger claim that we are winning in Iraq, have gone unrefuted. And what is actually happening in Iraq bears no resemblance to McCain's triumphant vision.
George W. Bush has defined "victory" in Iraq as a unified, democratic and stable country. McCain echoed this definition in the debate, saying that Iraq will be "a stable ally in the region and a fledgling democracy." Yet McCain never explained just how Iraq is going to become unified, democratic or stable, let alone a U.S. ally -- and Obama did not demand that he do so. McCain was lucky he didn't, because there is no answer.
McCain's entire position on Iraq boils down to two words: the surge. According to McCain, Gen. Petraeus' counterinsurgency tactic worked to perfection, and after years of failed approaches, victory is now within our grasp. McCain endlessly attacks Obama for not supporting the surge, painting his rival as a craven defeatist who, as McCain's top foreign policy advisor put it, "would rather lose a war that we are winning than lose an election by alienating his base."
The media has largely bought into this rosy view of the surge. Violence has fallen sharply in Iraq and U.S. casualties are down, and the media and the U.S. public have tacitly accepted both that the surge was largely responsible for these laudable outcomes and, to a lesser degree, that the underlying situation in Iraq has fundamentally improved. Unfortunately, neither claim is true.
First, the surge was not primarily responsible for the drop in sectarian violence in Iraq. It played a role, but was far less important than the simple, grim fact that the Shiite militias in Baghdad had already succeeded in ethnically cleansing the city. This was established by a team of UCLA geographers who analyzed night-light signatures in the city. They found that night lights in Sunni neighborhoods declined dramatically just before the February 2007 surge and never came back. "Essentially, our interpretation is that violence has declined in Baghdad because of intercommunal violence that reached a climax as the surge was beginning," John Agnew, a UCLA professor of geography and the study's lead author, told Science Daily. "By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left ... The surge really seems to have been a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted."
The UCLA scientists' findings are supported by Shiite expert Juan Cole, who argues that the surge actually helped the Shiite militias to ethnically cleanse Baghdad by disarming Sunnis. "Rates of violence declined once the ethnic cleansing was far advanced, just because there were fewer mixed neighborhoods," Cole argues.
Joining Cole and the UCLA team is one of the best field reporters in Iraq, Nir Rosen, author of an important piece, "The Myth of the Surge," which appeared in Rolling Stone. Rosen points out that another key factor behind the cessation of violence is that U.S. troops began bribing their former deadly enemies, Sunni insurgents, to cooperate. (The Sunnis had turned against al-Qaida because of its brutal tactics -- a key factor in the decline of terrorist attacks in Iraq that the surge had nothing to do with.) But these Sunnis, called "the Awakening" or "Sons of Iraq," will be off the U.S. payroll on October 1, and Rosen paints a grim picture of what is likely to happen next. "There is little doubt what will happen when the massive influx of American money stops: Unless the new Iraqi state continues to operate as a vast bribing machine, the insurgent Sunnis who have joined the new militias will likely revert to fighting the ruling Shiites, who still refuse to share power."
The final reason for the cessation of violence was the stand-down by Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, which is lying low. That stand-down, which can be reversed at any time, was brokered by -- Iran. But Iran is playing all sides: It supports both Maliki and Sadr. The U.S. simply cannot compete in this kind of deep game, at which Iran has excelled for centuries, without diplomatic engagement. But for McCain, that is anathema.
Insofar as the surge helped to contribute to lowered levels of violence in Iraq, it is to be commended. And there is no doubt that Gen. Petraeus' adoption of classic counterinsurgency doctrine, which mandates moving troops out of secure bases and closer to the people, was a significant improvement over previous tactics. But as the above should make clear, the surge was not the main reason for the reduction of violence -- which remains at terrifyingly high levels. In any case, the mere reduction of sectarian violence does not prove that the U.S. is "winning." Even the Bush administration has acknowledged that the critical issue in Iraq is political reconciliation. And the sad reality is that there has been no political reconciliation in Iraq, that there are no indications it is on the horizon and that there is no reason to believe that the continued presence of U.S. troops will help bring it about.
As analyst Peter Galbraith points out in an excellent piece in the New York Review of Books, the salient fact about Iraq is that Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's government is allied with Iran, wants to create a Shiite Islamic state and will never integrate the Sunni Awakening forces into the Iraqi Army, because it correctly sees them as threatening the current regime's existence. Its rapprochement with the Kurds, the only group that supports the U.S., is fragile and could collapse at any time, with the fate of the disputed, oil-rich city of Kirkuk likely to be the trigger.
Galbraith sums up the situation thus: "George W. Bush has put the United States on the side of undemocratic Iraqis who are Iran's allies. John McCain would continue the same approach. It is hard to understand how this can be called a success -- or a path to victory."
Most critically, the Maliki regime wants U.S. forces to leave Iraq -- on the same 16-month timetable as the one Obama has proposed. The Iraqi people also want the U.S. out. The U.S. simply lacks the power to oppose this demand, and McCain's bluster about staying in Iraq until "victory" is absurd in the face of it.
McCain's talk of "victory" is not just logically false, it is morally obscene. Our unprovoked invasion destroyed Iraq. Up to a million Iraqis may have died. The infrastructure is dreadful, far worse than in Saddam's time. Most of Iraq's doctors have fled or been killed. Vast numbers of Iraqis have been forced into exile, and few have dared to return. The sectarian war our invasion let loose has ripped the country apart. Iraq remains one of the most dangerous and violence-torn countries in the world. (On Sunday, five bomb attacks in Baghdad killed at least 27 people.)
What do we do confronted with this situation? What do we owe the Iraqi people? What do we owe ourselves? What is in our national interest? And with our economy melting down, how long can we spend $10 billion a month waiting to decide?
There are no easy answers to these questions. But we cannot hide them behind cheap talk of "victory" and incoherent fear-mongering. We will have to hope that in January we will get a new administration, one not deluded by empty slogans and neoconservative ideology. And they will then have to begin the difficult process of figuring out how to responsibly extricate ourselves and the Iraqi people from the nightmare we created.
Twitter
StumbleUpon
Facebook
Delicious
Digg
Newsvine
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
83 Comments so far
Show AllJust a message for Thomas Moore...
I emailed Matt this morning before I left for work regarding Blackwater and he had a reply when I got home ...
He basically said the same thing you did...He has seen them a lot over there and doesn't care for them...in fact he thinks they're a joke
to be honest that answer surprised me...
Thank you...Once again I learned something from the Man for all Seasons
There you go. That is a decent, straightforward, honest thing you've done, and I commend you for it. Matt is your son, I take it, over in Iraq?
I sure wish him the best and I hope--like I hope for all other brave soldiers--that he comes back home safe and sound.
Thank you
Yes...Matt is my son...he is in Baghdad with a Recon Element of the 101st ABN
(and probably doing things that might make me grayer if I knew about them)
He did tell me they were sent into one of the hairier neighborhoods just to take Photo's of a malfunctioning septic pump station so the Engineers could decide how to repair it...now THATS a Mission worth risking your life over, huh?...geez
If measured on the Richter scale and in total human death by criminal war - the level in violence has not gone down. When the tonnage of bombs dropped from the air has doubled, that is not drop in violence. When the number of killed in action continue to mount, when considering all combatants and civilians as human as any US Troop, the violence has not gone down. When by passing the semantic play on words that separate Afghanistan, Iraq and the Ghettos around the world (including the emotional ghetto of the suburban bedroom and dinner table) - The Violence Has Not Gone Down.
May we all recognize more of our blessings and live more dignified lives.
SnowWolf said: "This comment is totally off topic but I'm having my first ever 'Bud Light Lime' and I gotta say...pretty damn good..I'm usually not into 'Fad' type beers. I recommend it."
Based on your propaganda-induced comments earlier, I almost felt sorry for you. Now I just think that you are a complete moron.
And as for you disputing the death toll, perhaps only 500,000 (which is still a low estimate) have been DIRECTLY killed because of the US invasion and occupation - But how many are dying every day because their hospitals have no electricity or medical supplies?
you think I'm a moron because I drank a fad beer?...
Well alrighty then
but let me ask you...how many did Saddam let die because of the sanctions the World put on him for what very well may have been nothing?...
How many died because corrupt politicians the World over were getting kickbacks in the oil for food scam?
Iraq will ultimately be better off for this...like Germany and Japan after we kicked their ass they actually became pretty decent countries...Iraq will too
So let us review:
The US wants to instill "democracy" in Iraq.
US politicians are bought by corporations - and are now trying to pass even more legislation to bail out the top 1% of the citizenry.
Maybe we should work on "democracy" and "freedom" here first.
I do not understand how people that lived through America's "war" (occupation) of Viet Nam can support what it happening right now.
Ok...I've been working a bunch this morning but looking up CREDIBLE Statistics on Civilian deaths in Iraq when I can and I'm telling you...a Million isn't in the Ballpark
The U.N. (seems the most credible) states that the exact number is unknown but they estimate between 80-150,000... their methodolgy seems sound and isn't disputed by the U.S.
150k Civilian deaths sucks I agree but is nowhere near the 600k-1,000,000 that gets bandied about...
Gary Kamiya provides a valuable commentary.
Besides the million dead Iraqis, Kamiya mentions "Vast numbers of Iraqis have been forced into exile..."
The refugees: three million to four million Iraqis, from the sources I've read. Probably will be disputed, too; we're such experts in Middle East affairs from 8000 miles away. Most of us couldn't locate Iraq on an unmarked world map, and McBush said that Iraq shares a border with Pakistan!
Life has been reported to be miserable for the Iraqi refugees who ventured into Jordan or Syria; how generous has been the US to them?
My reading is that we have not provided these refugees a single loaf of bread.
A very valid point. Though the highest figure I saw was 2 million. 3 million, possible although many have returned.
"My reading is that we have not provided these refugees a single loaf of bread."
This is something we should be helping with. The host countries are bearing the brunt of our invasion. Thats not right.
Best estimate I've heard was from field officers and they put it at around 200,000. But you know field officers tend to miss bits, so I'd add 25-50% for a credible estimate.
The two videos linked in my following post provide other reasons on why the USA et alia are NOT winning the war on Iraq.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/09/30-2#comment-1044232
I'd be interested to know what you think winning the war is? I don't know what it would be. What would you like the outcome to be?
Kimaya writes as if the invasion of Iraq was legitimate and the problems that the US is facing have to be dealt in an intelligent and honest manner. The first thing that needs to be done is to admit the crime and make an honest and serious effort towards reparations.
"Our unprovoked invasion destroyed Iraq." So says Kamiya. How does that translate as legitimizing the invasion of Iraq? He knows it was a crime, as any rational reading of the piece clearly shows.
Legitimate or legal, same thing and it was legal, saying it wasn't is wishful thinking and a clever use of semantics. A crime? We won't know till its been investigated and we can prove they knew the information was false. I think most people know it, but we still have to prove it.
Here in America we have a broken government, broken roads, broken school systems, broken bridges, broken cities, broken hospitals, broken prison systems, broken monetary systems, etc, and we are talking about bringing democracy to some small country in the middle east? Give me a break! To my knowledge no one in Iraq ask for America to come into their country and rescue them. Why are we always using democracy as a rouge to send our military into other peoples country and getting entangled into their internal affairs? We have too much at stake here in the USA to be worried about bringing democracy to others while dening it to our own citizens!
This comment is totally off topic but I'm having my first ever "Bud Light Lime"
and I gotta say...pretty damn good..I'm usually not into "Fad" type beers
I recommend it
.gee, your usual posts would indicate a high rate of alcohol intake....or a real desire to lie and obfuscate.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Why would you bother telling us that THIS comment is off topic?!!!
Your priorities are showing.
Isn't Beer a foodgroup?
Seriously though...decent beer
Oye, WAR in Iraq, the SURGE, Walll Street TO F$$KING Main Street, why can no one say what things are? Is it simpler to use inane words and phrases all of which are false? Illegal Invasion, now the Occupation of Iraq, escalation of Troops not a GD surge and the only Main Street I've ever seen was either in a play or I read about it. The surge absolutely was preceded by an Ethnic Cleansing, a Journalist from Reuters a few weeks ago wrote an article and it had a thermal photo of the country and provinces of Iraq, the greyish parts were where the murdered had been, no light. I have it posted on my site but if you know about Iraq you know since Saddam was Sunni, minority, he kept the Shi'a in check, so what in hell did anyone think would become if Sunni after they hung Saddam, we all know who it is that should have been hanging by his throat. Now the Shi'a are in control and they'll murder every last Sunni if they could. Insofar as withdrawal from Iraq, if McInsane is elected forever, Obama immediate withdrawal from Iraq so he can immediately redeploy into Afghanistan, every where in the world is fraught with violence now because of the Murderer, man his flat ugly white ass better take the last train to Clarksville by 1/20/2009 or I shall start exercising my Second and Tenth Amendment Rights.
BillofRights
.
Sen. John McCain is a dottering old fool.
He would fight on for ever, lost in the mists of his senility.
Silly Sarah Palin is a small town local politician, totally unfit and inexperienced to be President of the U.S.A.
Iraq is an illegal war that will haunt the United States worse than Viet Nam.
The U.S. Military has killed over a million non combatants in Iraq in the last 6 years. Some people are going to answer for these War Crimes.
IMPEACH both Bush and Cheney..............ASAP
.
The U.S. Military has killed over a million non combatants in Iraq in the last 6 years
Nonsense...the bulk of the civilian deaths were at the hands of their "Brother" Muslims
You know Mike, I used to give you a bit of credit for being straightforward and having some measure of integrity. Even if you're a total Cheney/Rove/Bush toady, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt because there are obviously legitimate reasons for people to disagree. But you're proving to be just like the Repugnantin scum you support and for whom you make weak excuses.
A few weeks ago, you tried to pass off info as being legit about Palin, that actually came from a Repug propaganda site.
Now this: "The U.S. Military has killed over a million non combatants in Iraq in the last 6 years. Nonsense..."
Here's what the article says: "Our unprovoked invasion destroyed Iraq. Up to a million Iraqis may have died".
The author does not claim at all what you say. The catastrophe we created led to everybody killing everybody else, with the result extremely likely over a million...but nobody claims that our military killed that many. Although we killed a lot.
Anybody mildly serious knows full well that part of the unbelievable chaos we've created in Iraq is the predictable (and predicted) civil war that we provoked. Just the simple reality of not having planned at all for what would happen after Sadam fell meant that there was obviously (DUH!!) no law and order. So already on day 1 after the fall of Sadam, gangsters were already kidnapping rich people for ransom, etc., etc. While we were standing around like f.....g idiots not having a clue what to do with looting, and rampant, uncontrolled criminality all around. And your type of government-paid gangters postering around like bad movie characters protecting Iraqi political collaborators to whom we had to pay a fortune to work with us.
On top of the obvious reality that Shiite, Sunni, and Kurds were going to fight over the spoils and we didn't even know who was who, let alone have any idea what to do.
The most reputable sources on the planet, used by the US gov't when it suits them, claim that our invasion has led to the death of over a million. But nobody claims that they all died at the hands of our troops.
You're pulling a typical Rove-type misappropriation by claiming the author made a frankly stupid statement to discredit the whole article. Go have another fruit-flavored beer.
I would like to suggest to you that there were a little over a million civilian casualties in the war in Viet Nam. Don't you find it a bit odd that they reaced that figure in a year or so?
No matter the number it was far too many. The whole article is not wrong, but this # is not credulous.
A year or so.... We've been there since spring 03...???
The estimates in Vietnam are anywhere up to 2 million civilians, North and South.
For Iraq, remember that it's an urban country of only 25 million or so, and the devastation following the invasion, and the complete lawlessness, meant that hospitals and clinics, etc., pretty much all fell apart and all kinds of deaths resulted from illnesses, etc. that would not have been life-threatening had the health-care system been functional. Very quickly, most doctors left. Working conditions were terrible, obviously, but also the total lawlessness that started right on the very day that Sadam fell, meant that all well-to-do people were vulnerable to being kidnapped for ransom. So one of the horrible, but less- discussed realities over there, is that most doctors, dentists, lawyers--professionals in other words--who had the money, got out of there just before or just after the invasion.
The following is from Wiki, but any source will provide the same info on Lancet. They're totally respected and the US government has quoted them often...when it suits them. Just remember that it talks about all deaths resulting from the invasion...not just those from being killed by US soldiers or killed in the civil war either. This is a comparison of death rates over and above what was normal in the country before the invasion. Maybe it's bit high...I seriously doubt it. If you're realistic about the mayhem, lack of drugs, criminality, ethnic/religious civil strife, etc., etc., it's not far from a million deaths that would not have occurred if we had stayed here like we should have.
"The Lancet study's figure of 654,965 excess deaths through the end of June 2006 is based on household survey data. The estimate is for all excess violent and nonviolent deaths. That also includes those due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poorer healthcare, etc.. 601,027 deaths (range of 426,369 to 793,663 using a 95% confidence interval) were estimated to be due to violence. 31% of those were attributed to the Coalition, 24% to others, 46% unknown. The causes of violent deaths were gunshot (56%), car bomb (13%), other explosion/ordnance (14%), air strike (13%), accident (2%), unknown (2%). A copy of a death certificate was available for a high proportion of the reported deaths (92 per cent of those households asked to produce one".
The estimates in Vietnam are anywhere up to 2 million civilians, North and South
2 million was the best estimate and 1 million of those were military. But it could have been somewhat higher. Wiki is just an assemblage of opinions. I simply believe the Lancets numbers are wrong. Their methodology was suspect at the time and no other estimate comes close to that.
I know that many studies, estimates, etc in Viet Nam were pure Voodoo and I suspect nothing has changed.
The numbers in the end don't really matter. Its a fight we never should have been in and 1 death was too many.
I really am trying to be straightforward and honest...if I post something its because I understand it to be true
The article loses credibility when he used that statistic just as much as it would have if he said Bush and the CIA brought down the World Trade Center...it IS nonsense
but thank you for saying you thought I was being straightforward previously...I think MOST of the people here are also
You are of course perfectly correct about that Mr. Wolf sir. But if we hadn't attacked Iraq....so we do hold some responsibility in my view.
As to illegal war, hang with that nonsense if you like guys, but neither Viet Nam (by treaty) or Iraq were "illegal" wars. Its better to be factual than ideological.
I wondered if he was alluding to that...(Our responsibility for going in)
I do dispute the "Million" Civilian deaths figure though...thats plain crazy
Civilian deaths are way down at the moment and have been less than Saddam was killing....
.Well, believe something called a "SnowWolf" or believe the guys at Johns Hopkins University, who, by the by, have published the criteria and methodology used to arrive at that one million figure....where I wonder is your criteria?
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
.http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html
Updated Iraq Survey Affirms Earlier Mortality Estimates
Mortality Trends Comparable to Estimates by Those Using Other Counting Methods
As many as 654,965 more Iraqis may have died since hostilities began in Iraq in March 2003 than would have been expected under pre-war conditions, according to a survey conducted by researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. The deaths from all causes—violent and non-violent—are over and above the estimated 143,000 deaths per year that occurred from all causes prior to the March 2003 invasion.
The estimates were derived from a nationwide household survey of 1,849 households throughout Iraq conducted between May and July 2006. The results are consistent with the findings of an October 2004 study of Iraq mortality conducted by the Hopkins researchers. Also, the findings closely reflect the increased mortality trends reported by other organizations that utilized passive methods of counting mortality, such as counting bodies in morgues or deaths reported by the news media. The study is published in the October 14, 2006, edition of the peer-reviewed scientific journal, The Lancet.
“As we found with our previous survey, the majority of deaths in Iraq are due to violence—although we also saw a small increase in deaths from non-violent causes, such as heart disease, cancer and chronic illness. Gunshots were the primary cause of violent deaths. To put these numbers in context, deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003,” said Gilbert Burnham, MD, PhD, lead author of the study and co-director of the Bloomberg School’s Center for Refugee and Disaster Response. “Our total estimate is much higher than other mortality estimates because we used a population-based, active method for collecting mortality information rather than passive methods that depend on counting bodies or tabulated media reports of violent deaths. Though the numbers differ, the trend in increasing numbers of deaths closely follows that measured by the U.S. Defense Department and the Iraq Body Count group.”
Key points of the study include:
• Estimated 654,965 additional deaths in Iraq between March 2003 and July 2006
• Majority of the additional deaths (91.8 percent) caused by violence
• Males aged 15-44 years accounted for 59 percent of post-invasion violent deaths
• About half of the households surveyed were uncertain who was responsible for the death of a household member
• The proportion of deaths attributed to coalition forces diminished in 2006 to 26 percent. Between March 2003 and July 2006, households attributed 31 percent of deaths to the coalition
• Mortality data from the 2006 study reaffirms 2004 estimates by Hopkins researchers and mirrors upward trends measured by other organizations
• Researchers recommend establishment of an international body to calculate mortality and monitor health of people living in all regions affected by conflict
....edit....
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Saddam was a terrible tyrant, whom we supported against Iran (supplying him with gross WMD, etc.), and the type we support in other countries as long as they suit us. He killed a lot of people, but nothing like the mayhem we let loose when we knocked him off.
Civilian deaths are down somewhat because, as the article points out, the grissly ethnic cleasing was mostly finished by the time we surged, and neighbourhoods were pretty much all Sunni or Shiite, so the violence necessarily went down.
But the main reason the civilian violence is down some is that we're paying former Sunni insurgents (who killed our soldiers and Shiites) to go after al Quida instead. So they're not shooting at our soldiers now--as long as the money keeps coming. But the Shiites don't like the idea and want to go after these Sunnis with lots of Shiite blood on their hands. So, when we inevitably leave, more blood bath.
Brilliant military tactic: Let's pay our ennemies not to shoot at us. Now there's an idea!
Brilliant military tactic: Let's pay our ennemies not to shoot at us.
Believe me my friend, if you were sitting there or patroling, you'd be very much in favor of it. Very much.
You really don't get it. Obviously, any soldier who is NOT killed for whatever reason, will be happy that reason was there! DUH
What we're saying is simply this: The surge--more soldiers--did very little to reduce the violence. The ethnic cleansing that was pretty much done by surge time was one of the major causes of reduced violence. The other one was a controversial and sleazy policy of paying a huge amount of money to Sunni insurgents who had been previously busy killing Shiites and US soldiers, to stop doing that??? Shiites don't buy it, and they're eager to be able to go after these former insurgents who killed lots of Shiites. And how long can we afford to occupy a country for our oil companies and pay locals not to shoot at us????!!!
The stupidity is staggering.
"What we're saying is simply this: The surge--more soldiers--did very little to reduce the violence."
I got it, its just that the evidence is to the contrary. I frankly don't care if its the sleeziest policy in the world if it saves one life. American or whoever. Its worth it.
Frankly all the who lied and what Bush did...all that stuff is for us to sort out later since we can't do it while he's a sitting president. And as far as our troops over there go, its the last thing I'd worry about. They face reality every day, politics are secondary to their lives as far as I'm concerned.
Want to call me stupid because I place a higher value on life that political points? Go right ahead. I am certainly that stupid.
You could learn from real Texans such as Jim Hightower, Molly Ivins, Lloyd Doggett, Ralph Yarborough, and the likes instead of frauds such as Lyndon Baines Johnson, although I commend him on getting civil rights passed without fear, and George W. Bush. Besides, why don't you go to Iraq and see how you like it there?
"wondered if he was alluding to that...(Our responsibility for going in)"
I don't think that was what he meant.
"I do dispute the "Million" Civilian deaths figure though...thats plain crazy"
No one has any real figure, but I agree the million figure is absurd. But you know how things get exaggerated during conflict.
The British medical journal Lancet has been quoted by the administration when it suited them, and it's extremely reputable. As a poster below says, it claimed over a million dead and it's extremely reasonable given the mayhem.
"But you know how things get exaggerated during conflict". You mean out and out lies like Saddam's WMD, the Nigerian yellow cake that he was supposedly buying, etc., etc.
Yep! That too.
Yes, there are real figures, and one million is NOT absurd. The first figure actually taken was by John Hopkins University using the same statistical methods that the US government uses in countries where it wants to accuse their governments of crimes against humanity, but not in places where they themselves are guilty of the same crimes. I believe the figure given by John Hopkins was 600,000 three years after the invasion. President Bush completely rejected it out of hand. John Hopkins dropped the study since its result was unpopular with most Americans. Indeed, most Americans reacted to that study the in same way that they reacted against the Dixie Chicks, with ignorant denial.
Another figure was then published by the British medical journal Lancet. I believe the figure given was 1.2 million five years after the invasion.
It is interesting how Americans call statistical methods valid when they show what they want, but reject them out of hand when they show what they do not want to hear.
Yes, I believe over one million innocent people in Iraq have been killed as a consequence of America’s invasion. I choose to believe academically respected sources before I believe the opinion of average Americans, or the opinions of idiots like George Bush who is mentally challenged reading “My Pet Goat”.
I have heard it said that since the second world war the American government is responsible for the deaths of 20 million innocent people in 25 different countries. Yes, I believe it.
I'm not familiar with the Johns Hopkins study but I do know the Lancet's was debunked over 2 years ago...some statistician types went over their data and it was flawed...I will try and find a link
The John Hopkins study was praised at the time by the scientific community as being valid. This was actually reported in main stream media, but not for long. The sentiment of the country was still unreceptive to such objective criticism. I didn’t know that the Lancet study was challenged by statisticians.
I disagree...
Every day that Iraq is stable is a day closer to our departure
As far as using Military Contractors (and I are one) unless you're prepared to double the size of the Military (Draft?), they aren't going anywhere soon..
Contrary to fantasy the War isn't over after Iraq and Afghanistan...
If we had the military we need for your favorite issue Mike, National Security, we have more than enough without the mercenary trash like Blackwater.
There are no wars in Iraq nor in Afghanistan. We're OCCUPYING those countries. Occupations are always as unpopular with locals (DUH!!) as you would expect. We need a lot of 'soldiers' to protect our puppets and the oil infrastructure in Iraq for US companies that just got back in since Saddam booted them out. And we need a lot of 'soldiers' in Afghanistan to protect our puppet (Karzai) and to secure the territory so US companies can build the pipelines through that country to transport oil and gas from the Caspian basin to Pakistan, India, etc.
Check out the location of our bases in Afghanistan, and the location of the proposed pipeline route. OMG...they coincide. Well, what a happy coincidence.
We need all those soldiers for the imperialistic adventures of the PNAC gang that now runs our government. The "war on terror" is as real as Sarah Palins competence, as real as her experience in geopolitics because Russia is not that far away from Alaska.
We've got troops everywhere as does any empire to protect it's assets.
And Mike... wake up and smell the gunpowder. It's all crumbling.
I'm not speaking of military contractors here, but in the battle areas, especially the armed ones. Does your son and the 101 admire the actions of Blackwater and those types? I can assure you my friends tell me the Marines hold them in utter contempt.
They're trigger-happy gangsters. Everybody with a modicum of sense knows that.
you know...in all honesty I've never asked him
and thats a good question...I will ask that next time I email...I DO know he says his NCO's tell them they are way better than the 82nd Airborne ...I hope he doesn't believe it
82nd Airborne
Thats just the 101 talking!
SnowWolf probably works for Blackwater or some other despicable mercenary hired-killer organization. The only bright side of the US economic meltdown is that it will no longer be able to afford to hire assholes like him to kill for the corporate elites. Then again, a cornered US might just start to get desperate enough to bring the world into WWWIII. That's been the usual capitalist "solution" to major economic crisis.
Cheers.
I wish I did...sorry...its nothing that glamorous
I turn wrenches on Military Aircraft...Component repair
and Republics are never conquered...they rot from within and implode...and the number of corrupt politicians I see on both sides of the aisle I can see why
the way you say "Capitalist" makes me laugh a bit...what is your experience with Communism?...a cool College Professor?
Actually I've been a member of the Communist Party for over thirty years now. Do you turn wrenches state side? If so, I see why you think you have a personal stake in the military-industrial complex. There are other, more human-friendly places you could use your skills at, btw.
I'm turning them Stateside now...but I've been around the Block
May I ask (and I'm not being Derogatory) what about Communism attracts you?...it seems to me that its only brought misery and slavery to every country thats tried it...it can't be implemented without being oppressive
I'll take freedom...even with its uncertainties
I'm afraid this is the wrong place and the wrong time to try and get into a discussion such as this. I know that Americans like to look at deep and profound issues as simple sound bites, easily stated in a short sentence, but the question of capitalism and socialism and the superiority of the latter just won't fit in the comment space available here.
Cheers.
Thats fine...perhaps someday a thread that may be germain to the discussion may appear
Answer--look around. See capitalism. Duh
McCain is the joker
Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know, I just do things." —the Joker in The Dark Knight
for an illustration see
see http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2008/09/your-turn-trick.html
====================
Wherever you go, there you are !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
frank1569
"And BO's plan doesn't mention the fact that "private military contractors" outnumber US soldiers on the ground - implying that he will continue mercenary contracts with Blackwater and their ilk and, quite possibly, will actually increase said contracts to cover the gap left by re-deployed US soldiers"
This is a very good point. Blackwater and their ilk are a scorge on our good name and should be unemployed ASAP. We do not need private contractors.
Winning in Iraq? I have yet to hear anyone define what that would be. This wasn't a war at all anyway. It hasn't been like Viet Nam. We decided to occupy Iraq and we did. remember how long the "war" lasted? The only way to "win" is to withdraw.
No matter who wins though you can be assured we will be sending some of those troops to Afganistan. And yes Nader or any other would be forced to do it too. Just a sad fact of life.
Well I respectfully submit that AQ us no longer sending foreign fighters into Iraq...because they were dying there (to no good effect...)
Things in Afghanistan will settle down as the new Government takes hold...and I hate to disapoint the conspiracy theorists among us...but Africom is heading off the Jihadi's from their new safe haven when they are forced out of Pakistan ...(Unless they end up running Pakistan...which is possible)
The Wsr is actually going better than the media would like to sell you...and I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for the War...but we started it...we need to finish it...quitting isn't finishing it...especially when the hard part is behind us
and I agree with you 100% on this:
"No matter who wins though you can be assured we will be sending some of those troops to Afganistan. And yes Nader or any other would be forced to do it too. Just a sad fact of life"
Mike, you really ought to read something other than Repugnantin propaganda sites. The Lancet study, by the way, was never discredited by anybody credible. Of course you'll come up with a link to some other Repug toady, and it appears that you're simple enough to believe that self-interested propaganda.
Al-Qaeda is a small insignificant gang of criminal, ruthless, authoritarian religious nuts who want to set up a religious gov't from North Africa to India! As if! They're a tiny fringe group and nobody's buying.
In Iraq, they obviously moved in because of the chaos when we totally lost control of everything after we deposed Sadam, but nobody cares for them and Iraqis hate them like everybody else. But Sunnies were busy going after the Shiites who didn't want to share the spoils and the Shiites were busy defending themselves and rooting out the remaining Sunnies. So Al-Qaeda was able to get in.
Now, we're paying the former Sunni insurgents to stop shooting at us and go after Al-Qaeda instead. So of course, Al-Qaeda is on the run in Iraq, but they were never there before, no matter what your buddies Rove/Cheney/Bush/Dumsfeld/Rice were bleating. Saddam was exactly the perfect example of the kind of Arab leader (Stalin-loving, secular socialist!!) that Al-Qaeda wants to replace with a theocracy. Al-Qaeda would have loved nothing better than to be able to depose him, so they were nowhere near Iraq.
The best organizing drive that could ever have happened for Al-Qaeda was our stupid, criminal invasion. But of course, they're on the run now, because we're paying the people who killed so many of our soldiers to go after them, which they love to do. But wait and see what happens when the $$$ runs out.
What have you been smoking? Is it legal? The "hard part is behind us". Yeh, sure. The "hard part" hasn't even started as the evil empire starts to fall apart. But I guess, hired-killers will always have employment.
Cheers.
I'll clue you in on something...
The lack of News from Iraq means its mainly good news that the media doesn't want to report because it might hurt Obama's chances in November
.Disengenuousness seems your stock in trade, Wolfie, really ,truly sad.
You throw away a line like AlQaeda is no longer in Iraq, sans attribution or sanity and then build a premise upon it....typical of you but atypical of truth.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Disingenuousness is not an attractrive trait. Ther are several good sources for acurate news about Iraq. Juan Cole, Nir Rosen, McClatchy and Corksphere are a few.
There is also the foreign press.
No one expects the so-called news media/journalist in this country to report on the real conditions in Iraq. You can read any major daily published in this country every day for a week and not find a single mention of Iraq and it is not because things are going swimmingly there.
I simply see no way to "finish" it. Will Iraq be a Democracy? Not likely. Their history dictates otherwise. Peace and tranquility in the region? How?
Do you really think Afganistan is going to settle down? I don't. These guys have simply moved operations there from Iraq.
I agree they've moved there from Iraq...totally...and they are trying to set up shop in Somalia and Eritrea but the noose is tightening...
and I think moderate Muslims have had enough of them also...they see they are trouble and not heroes...so our intelligence assists have been fantastic...
Honestly...take a step back and really evaluate how things are going...and its not bad at all
I would be happy if Iraq were just neutral and busy getting fat and rich off oil money and not stirring trouble...that would be fine with me ...I'd call that a win
Mike, get real. Iraq is a destroyed country divided in 3 parts that cannot get together. The Kurds up north have a decent thing going and they'll fight to the death to hang on the oil-rich Kirkuk. They want no part of 'Iraq' and for all intents and purposes, they're all but independent. They do as they please. We (the US) can't allow them to be 'independent' because Turkey would invade. Period. Wouldn't that be sweet if we had to go to war with our most 'dependable' ally in the region?
The Sunnies, who were in charge before and had the good life, don't have any oil and are now shooting at Al-Qaeda instead of us now because we're paying them a fortune for doing that. But that can't last.
The Shiites (60% of the population) control the South and.... the oil!! And they're in cahoots with their co-religion friends across the eastern border...Iran. What a f....g farce of a mess. We've destroyed the country--less electricity and services than when sadistic Saddam was in charge--and the people who have the upper hand, the Shiites whom we support (they're the majority after all) are in cahoots with Iran.
The worst nightmare of your idiot buddies--Rove/Cheney/Bushy-boy/Dumsfeld/Rice--is coming true. Everything we've built in Iraq is falling apart and with Blackwater gangsters going around shooting civilians left and right, the US is deeply hated. We'll eventually have to leave, and Iran will have control.
But, the 4 major US oil companies that Saddam chased out are back in, making a killing of course while our brave soldiers are getting killed and mutilated for being there to protect the investments of these oil companies.
Mike, as a military man supporting that crime, you should be ashamed of yourself.
There is no such thing as "winning" in Iraq - or Afghanistan, Georgia, Iran, or Pakistan. There is no such thing as "winning" the war on terror, esp. since our own actions are terrorist - when I hear leaders talk about "taking out" so and so or a whole country I cringe. We only "lose" our dignity, our morality, our standing (for whatever that is worth), and our $$$, the billions of dollars lost to these travesties.
I have a strong hunch that with the way tensions get unexpectedly higher from time to time, oil in that country will peak much faster than anticipated. As soon as the elites find it more expensive to stay in Iraq, they will finance the pullout just like Vietnam. Like Vietnam, we already lost in Iraq no matter how the neocon war mongers try to deny the truth.
But...!!!?? You don't get it at all. Iraq is THE place for oil on the planet. Saudi Arabia has been pumping out some 10 million barrels or so a day for years. (Since the quota system was instituted--where each producer's allowed quota depends on levels of reserves--lying about reserves is totally widespread and systemic...so nobody knows about major producers' reserves). But the Saudi supply has to be going down, and it's major fields are known to be already showing signs of slowing down--less pressure.
Same with Russia and Iran, to a large extent, and here in the US, we're pretty much done.
Iraq, on the other hand, has been stuck at 2 million barrels a day and less since the 80s and the costly war with Iran. And to begin with, Iraq had a lot, just under Saudi Arabia. And it's the best--the sweet stuff that's refined into gasoline. And it's the easiest to get at--drill a hole and the pressure shoots it out!! Iraqi oil is what experts call low-lying fruit, the easy and extremely profitable stuff to get at. (As opposed to incredibly expensive underwater sources, etc.)
Cheney ran around all the time in the 90s when he was CEO of Haliburton bleating about the fact that the place was Iraq, with possibly more than anybody else by now (because of such slow extraction because of terrible infrastructure, wars, etc.) and it being the choice stuff and so easily accessible. And you just have to pipe it down to the Gulf on flat desert. By far the best source of oil on the planet from the point of view of oil companies...as long as they can get in, and there's security to protect their investment.
We invaded Iraq because the oil there is the global prize. Even idiots like Wolfowitz and Greenspan admitted as much.
And that's why our corrupt gov't is spending such a fortune for us to fight there to protect our oil companies (to allow them in the first place after Saddam had booted them out in the 70s). And that's why our brave soldiers are dying and being mutilated over there--for the oil companies. Our chief political leaders are all up to their bottom lip in cahoots with oil companies--little Condi has a tanker named after her, Cheney former head of Haliburton, Bush who wasn't much good at it, but he's in there as well...etc.
There's tons of oil profits to be made there for quite a while to come. Other countries will be peaking (unable to produce any more on a daily basis) while Iraq can up it's production tremendously if the companies can have the security to upgrade the infrastructure, and to explore the remaining promising areas. It still has a lot of 'unproven' reserves. It's the global prize.
But we've never been stuck in Iraq before. Time and again insurgents are going to damage the oil pipelines and disrupt supplies and rightfully so. Then it costs more oil and money to repair the damage. Iraq will peak like Saudi Arabia and sooner.
P.S.: A user pointed out that technologies to convert bug wastes to oil and extract oil from algae, both of which could lead the way to renewable petroleum, are being worked out. Because they get no government support and like solar and wind they are economically PERSECUTED, we're stuck in Iraq.
VOTE FOR RALPH !
VOTENADER.ORG !!
I'm not sure how you're using the word 'peak' but you're certainly not using it as does the oil industry in context to the global supply of oil. The 'peak' that experts have been talking about comes from Marion King Hubbert (October 5, 1903 – October 11, 1989), a geoscientist who worked at the Shell, and who came out with the idea of peak oil in 1956.
Peak oil is a theory used to predict the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline. Globally, we're extracting now about 80 million barrels a day (US consumes about 25% of that) and experts think at something like 100 or so barrels a day, we simply won't be able to extract any more per day. The infrastructure to extract, refine, and transport the oil is incredibly complex and combined with decreasing reserves, we're going to hit a production ceiling. And regardless of increasing demand, we'll be stuck at that amount and if we haven't found viable substitutes (it doesn't look good) to really step in, prices will go sky-high and wars over oil are obviously predictable...and predicted.
But the one major oil production country in the world that has not developed anywhere near to it's potential and therefore can increase production significantly is...Iraq. And THAT is likely the huge attraction to Cheney and his gang who were fussing about it as far back as the mid-90s. It's not just the best quality, or the fact that there's a lot of it--maybe more than anywhere now because all other major producers are pumping much faster--but it's especially the fact that it can increase it's production up to 6 million barrels a day and more (from a mere 2 or less right now) over the next several years if the companies can invest in the incredibly terrible infrastructure. That's the whole idea.
You might be right that the security situation will continue to be so bad that we'll have to drop the project, that oil companies will have to spend too much on security, etc., that they'll leave. But that has nothing to do with PEAK oil.
The whole attraction to Iraq is that while the global supply will peak fairly soon, if not already (according to some experts), Irak can keep increasing production for quite a while if the security situation permits the massive investment required to rebuild and expand the infrastructure, and do the exploration on the unproven reserves.
Obviously, Cheney/Bush/Dumsfeld et al, have found that the great treasure trove of sweet, abundant, easily extractable crude from Iraq comes with major security problems.
The Internet is changing the way Americans "remember" their history.
Every day over at DailyKos they post before-and-after quotations and even YouTube videos of McCain contradicting himself. War correspondents like Nir Rosen would be unheard and unknown if not for the web. Sites like CD do a terrific job of aggregating progressive news and analysis. Young people who don't know about the S&L Scandal of '84 are learning about it via blogs, websites, and wikipeida.
Corporate Media still reaches a larger audience, but even those reporters are being held to higher standards by the "New Media". We've entered a new era where politicians can run, but they can't hide from the truth.
We still have a long way to go, and conservative forces are using the internet just as vigorously as the progressives. The election of President Barrack Obama will be an incremental change only. But it is far better to work for change than to wallow in cynicism.
Take what you learn here and write a letter to your local newspaper. Make a difference. You'll feel better.
On the contrary, it is far better to work in cynicism than to wallow in incremental change.
Until the United States reverts to a policy of diplomacy, with war as a last ditch self defense option, these nightmares will continue. Just like the French and Balkan resistance to the Nazis through the whole occupation, patriotic Iraqis and Afghans will lay down their lives to eject the foreign occupiers from their soil.
As happened to the Russians, eventually the losses in men and equipment will prove too high and we will pull out of Afghanistan, which has been devouring foreign armies since the time of Alexander. The accumulated blood feuds will last forever. As I would not be a Russian tourist in Afghanistan, so I would not be an American. As we have sown, so shall we reap.
Once we have gone, things will slowly return to "normal," which is not the definition of normal that we would want, but normal for the place and the culture.
My heart bleeds for the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions who will perish, including Americans, before we are off the scene.
Sane, intelligent, sensitive, informed, wise.
Thank you.
We're only winning if the MSM gets paid to say we are.
"He says that if elected he will withdraw American troops in stages over a 16-month period."
That's not exactly correct. The BO plan is to re-deploy a large number of soldiers to the destined-for-failure Afghanistan occupation while leaving behind up to 60,000 soldiers in Iraq for "counter-terrorism" missions and "training," (as if 5 years of "training" hasn't been enough for a nation that fought an eight year war with Iran.)
And BO's plan doesn't mention the fact that "private military contractors" outnumber US soldiers on the ground - implying that he will continue mercenary contracts with Blackwater and their ilk and, quite possibly, will actually increase said contracts to cover the gap left by re-deployed US soldiers.
But, no, really, go ahead and keep believing in the "I will end the Iraq war" bullshit, which you can tell is bullshit because the last time I checked, the USA was not in a state of "war" with Iraq, either officially or Constitutionally.
Iraq can be kept on the back burner while we are distracted by other national concerns. But, it’s obvious that a total change in the kingdom is necessary. Just changing a king won’t change a thing. We need fundamental changes in our way of living. We need to stop listening to and following the spin of mainstream media and start thinking by and for ourselves again. You’ve got rummages through all the FOX and CNN garbage to find new and honest information but most Americans won’t take the time or they think it doesn’t matter. Either way our country loses.
Hoa binh
The only surge that has the hope of winning now is one overthrowing the American government and replacing it with a democratic republic.
I agree wholeheartedly. Forget Iraq? I haven’t yet forgotten Vietnam, a point that I suspect readers at this site are sick of hearing me talk about. Well, I can’t help it. You see, I have been burden since birth with a thing called memory. I can’t forget the crimes committed by my country. And don’t confuse memory with intelligence. I’m certainly proof of that. But for reasons I do not understand, the majority of Americans do not seem to have much memory. Even as this article points our attention seems focused on the 700 Billion Dollar Bailout, ten years from now no one will even remember it. If you don’t think so, ask anyone if they remember the Savings and Load Crises. It cost this country financially more than the Second World War. Yet John McCain, who is guilty of contributing to that crises, is today running for President. I guess no one remembers. Well, as long as people continue to vote either Democrat or Republican, nothing will change. Oh, one last thing. If you do vote Democrat or Republican, bend over while your government shoves a giant reciprocating saw up your rectum. Enjoy the ride.