Moralism v. Pragmatism in First Debate
I sat down to watch the first presidential debate with one question in my mind: which candidate would tell the most compelling story? Four years ago, pundits Stanley Greenberg and James Carville argued that "a narrative is the key to everything." John Kerry lost because the Republicans "had a much more coherent attack and narrative."
I expected Obama and McCain to recite their competing narratives about the war in Iraq. But would either one place their story in the broader narrative of America's role in the world? And could either one make that broader picture even more compelling by linking foreign affairs to the crashing economy?
The answer to that second question turned out to be a disappointing and surprising negative. Since the economy is the issue most Americans really want to hear about right now, I expected the candidates to use every opportunity to turn the subject back to pocketbook issues. Moderator Jim Lehrer made that point from the start. Though this debate was supposed to be only about international relations, he spent the first 40 minutes of the 97-minute program asking about the domestic economy.
And the candidates had plenty of chances to make the connection. The very idea that the domestic emergency eclipses international concerns is misleading, because it assumes that the two arenas can be neatly divided. Foreign affairs and the domestic economy intersect in countless ways. But the candidates failed to make these connections or tell a compelling story about how they would remake U.S. foreign policy and, by extension, the U.S. economy.
Everything is Global
It hardly makes sense to talk about a "domestic" economy any more, since the flow of capital - which is really what the current crisis is all about - is so massively global. Whatever economic policies the United States adopts in the coming days will have a major effect on markets around the world. And if the U.S. government is going to come up with hundreds of billions of dollars in a short time a lot of that money will come from foreign sources, since they may be the only ones equipped to raise and invest such massive sums.
Consider China, which is, by almost any measure, the overriding long-term U.S. foreign policy concern. China's diplomatic influence is felt everywhere. It has a mutual cooperation treaty with a Russia that seems determined to stare down NATO. At the same time, China is rapidly becoming America's major competitor for global dominance in foreign trade and every other economic measure. Most importantly, the Chinese hold a large amount of dollar-denominated assets. The decisions they make about those assets, and about their own currency, could transform the U.S. economy. Yet China was virtually MIA in the debate, too.
Obama did briefly note the difficulty of imposing sanctions on Iran "without some cooperation with some countries like Russia and China." In his improvised closing remarks he said more broadly: "We've got challenges, for example, with China ... They now hold a trillion dollars' worth of our debt. And they are active in countries like - in regions like Latin America and Asia and Africa...The conspicuousness of their presence is only matched by our absence, because we've been focused on Iraq."
But Obama missed many opportunities to bring the conversation back to the economy. He was too focused on Iraq and on hammering home his simple narrative about the war: It was a diversion. We took our eye off the main target, Osama bin Laden. It has harmed America's global interests far more than it has helped. In this narrative, Obama foresaw it all and opposed the war from the outset, which proves he has the rational, prudent judgment to safeguard American interests wherever they are threatened.
McCain only mentioned China once: "One of the major reasons why we're in the difficulties we are in today is because spending got out of control. We owe China $500 billion." Yet in those few words he, too, used China as a prop to reiterate his favorite narrative, namely selfishness versus service to country. As McCain tells it, out-of-control spending is an example of the moral failures of the "me-first crowd." He cites Obama's plan for phased withdrawal from Iraq as another example of the very same failure: putting self before country, letting America's honor be tarnished by defeat. President McCain would never let that happen, he insists. His motto is "country first." The surge worked; now it's on to victory. No surrender.
Grand and Not-So-Grand Narratives
These competing grand narratives that shaped the debate have also shaped the whole presidential campaign. But they weren't the old-fashioned kinds of global narratives. Neither side has a clear ideological or geopolitical vision. The references to "freedom" and "democracy" were perfunctory and did not add up to the consistent narrative of the Cold War era that George W. Bush revived in his second inaugural address. In fact, though both candidates did a bit of Russia-bashing, both explicitly rejected a return to the Cold War paradigm. Nor was "realism" or Wilsonian liberal internationalism strongly in evidence.
The candidates tackled each problem area - Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Russia - as if it were a separate issue. They made some ad hoc connections between one area and another. But neither one showed any interest in teaching the public to see the world entire through the lens of an overarching vision.
Each side has different reasons for this lack of overarching vision. Obama gets his advice from pillars of the bipartisan foreign policy establishment, who think that ideology is positively dangerous in foreign policy. They would rather work pragmatically, advancing U.S. interests on a case-by-case basis. One of them is Anthony Lake. When he was Bill Clinton's national security advisor, political realities demanded that he come up with something that looked like an overarching ideological vision. His answer, "democratic enlargement," was pretty much a dud. That may have convinced him even more that the anti-ideological approach is the best way to go, and Obama's performance in the debate reflected this anti-ideology.
McCain, on the other hand, needs no overarching geopolitical vision in the classic sense because he has an overarching moral vision. In the hell of that North Vietnamese prison, he tells us at every opportunity, he learned that there are just two kinds of people: the selfish, who care more about indulging every whim than serving their country and who will surrender to evil as soon as the going gets tough; and the selfless, who sacrifice every personal advantage to protect and defend the honor of their country and are tough enough to fight on to victory, no matter how much they suffer in the process. In McCain's world, despite all his talk about bipartisanship, this dichotomy translates into a divide between "me-first" Democrats and "country-first" Republicans.
Morality vs. Interests
The candidates played out their fundamental difference when they tangled directly on two issues: Iraq and diplomatic talks with foes. In both cases, McCain tried to take the moral high ground. You don't let your soldiers die in vain, he preached. You bring home a victory that bestows honor upon them and their nation. You don't sit down with evil leaders without preconditions because that would only legitimate their evildoing.
Obama tried to take the prudent, interest-promoting ground. You don't persist in the wrong war. You go after the real danger to our national security. You don't demand that your foes capitulate to you before talking to them. Instead, you go into talks expecting to give as well as take.
Thus the candidates have competing narratives, but they are not stories about the goals of foreign policy and how the geopolitical world should look. They are about what kind of people Americans should be and the values we should display as we choose our goals. It's a classic confrontation between two styles of moral decision-making: absolutist moralism and prudent pragmatism.
These stories can help us predict how the candidates would link foreign policy to the domestic economic crisis. McCain would let concerns of national honor (as he sees it) override the cold calculations of the bottom line. Obama would run cost-benefit analyses, letting the specifics of each case override concerns as vague and fuzzy as national honor.
This contrast was the principle difference on display in the first debate: Obama the cerebral calculator of interests versus McCain the passionate warrior. And moral style seems to be what most voters care about most. In poll after poll, a majority of voters say that they base their decision on factors other than the candidates' stands on the issues.
The clearest evidence comes on the issue that both men made the center of gravity in the debate: Iraq. Though a clear majority of the public still prefers Obama's approach of a phased withdrawal of combat troops on a timetable, a majority also trusts McCain more than Obama to handle the Iraq War. More broadly, McCain continues to outpoll his opponent only in the area of war and national security. That's what is keeping him competitive in a race the Republicans were supposedly doomed to lose.
When it comes to foreign policy, then, the heart and the gut can still sometimes win out over the head. In 2004 Greenberg and Carville found that Bush won because he "was able to keep the election centered on safety (the terrorist threat) and values, rather than on Iraq and the stagnant economy." That's the essence of McCain's story, too.
In 2008, however, the economy isn't just stagnant. There are widespread fears that it's collapsing. And that's partly because, over the last four years, Iraq has drained billions out of our treasury - not to mention the 4,000-plus Americans who never came back alive. So even though McCain's image as a tough, patriotic guardian of national honor still stirs hearts across the land, keeping him surprisingly close in the polls, a narrative of safety and values will probably not be enough to give the Republicans another victory. A substantial number of the voters who trust McCain more on Iraq say they won't vote for him anyway. In the end, it looks like the winner will be Bill Clinton's famous 1992 narrative: it's the economy, stupid.
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70 Comments so far
Show AllYou want to talk about morality when discussing Iraq? McCain frames the moral question purely in terms of not letting American soldiers die in vein. American deaths mandate an American victory. This isn't morality. This is egocentrism. What is moral about the deaths--minimally into the hundreds of thousand--caused by the Anglo-American invasion and occupation? Not to mention the Anglo-American blockade that predated the invasion that also caused deaths into the hundreds of thousands, principally children? Neither candidate seems capable of articulating anything that has to do with morality when it comes to American foreign and military policy. We are living in a country that merits God's wrath when this is how we act and this is how we present our actions. I have more respect for Rev Wright than I do for these two clowns, or for the millions of Americans who are enthused about them.
As if the views of the two constructs McKane and O'Bama matter? This article is based on a crappy set of corporatist, militarist assumptions like typical right wing and mainstream media articles. Is everything really global? We're tearing down globalism - and this author still thinks everything is global! And who cares what narratives the two constructs spew? We know they are both carefully crafted to maximally deceive us. If we cannot recognize this about the elitist establishment after the past eight years, we're truly lost. And it seems this author is trying to ensure this. Why is this article on Common Dreams? We know better than to swallow the koolaid.
MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder)
Also people who love in "safe states" can vote their conscience without worrying about McCain winning. The Democrats never attempted to fix the electoral college, so it's not like the popular vote is worth worrying about.
Since I am now convinced we will get a President Obama, I am hoping more real progressives will abandon their lesser evilist arguments and vote for the real proggressive candidates. This will help us to show the corporate media that progressive values matter; will show Barack Obama and the Democratic party that there is more support for progressive values and legislation; and most importantly will inspire more progressives to run for local, state and federal offices as independent and/or alternative party candidates in greater numbers. It's all about building a true progressive majority in the U.S. I do think Pres. Obama will hinder our efforts in the long run.
btw, we need a safety net. The best countries in this world have great safety nets for their citizens. I am so sick of libertarian arguments.
The real libertarian platform would never call for a safety net for the CEOs at the expense of the employees. The GOP and fake "libertarians" are fudging the libertarian platform. Just ask Ron Paul.
Oops, you're right, I missed the "Who do you hope" part of the question. Okay... I'll try again.
Obama.
But I think he might wind up being worse for the country. They're both neo-cons. So the question is really do I want a competent and lovable neo-con, or a grumpy moron of a neo-con. In that sense, I'm really torn as to which is more dangerous. So I decided to pick Obama, because just as the 2006 congressional wins for the Democrats proved (to anyone paying attention) the lack of a meaningful difference between these two parties, perhaps an Obama presidency will prove the same. If McCain is elected, I'll have to listen to another four years of people hoping the Democrats will save them.
Trans,
Yes, you're right about taxes. Is that enough of a difference for you? Romney and McCain had different tax plans (both awful). But did you read that Obama is now stating he might not rescind the Bush tax cuts? (yes, he'll let them expire) But if you think that Obama's tax cuts don't favor the rich, then you should listen to Biden's defense of them (the rich will pay less taxes than under Reagan).
"Let me say they differ not enough, not at all? in the Pakistan/Afghan War. Innocent lives infinitely more important than taxes."
Not sure what you're trying to say here, are you being critical of Obama? If so, quite right, there is no difference in their Afghanistan/Pakistan policy, except that Obama is playing more of a hawk towards Pakistan than McCain.
My main question was:
What is the difference between Obama, Bush, and McCain's Iraq withdrawal plan? I don't want a rhetorical answer, please site specific policy differences.
"Fair's fair, they are too much alike, but their are some distinctions, I and others posit critical. taxes, Iran, Iraq, Russia, programs for human beings...."
Was that your answer? I'm disappointed. I wanted specific differences.
"And there is this; with al-Queda and the Taliban in Pakistan, striking US forces in Afghanistan any US president would be under tremendous pressure to act upon dead-certain intel pin-pointing a high enough value target, whether Zadari or Kitani liked it or not."
After Iraq and 911, I can't believe you trust this "dead-certain intel". That being said, is this the new doctrine? Can we attack China if we have "intel"? Germany? Venezuela? Can they attack us if they have "intel"? Does this just apply to Pakistan?
Sorry, but I reject that doctrine. Why? It's insane.
Well, we really could use Jesus Christ-- although, let's face it-- he'd be deemed "unelectable" by "realists" from all segments of the political spectrum.
It would take a miracle for him to win!
So apparently we're left with choosing between the Good Thief and the Bad Thief.
Or tell them both to go to Hell.
z; Good Morning. On Iraq; The difference between M & O? We leave with A 'timetable for withdrawal* or when we 'achieve victory with honor.' z, I expect you will dismiss this as rhetoric, however O has been consistent on this, as has M's open-ended stay forever nonsense. Significant differences there.
I was agreeing that the Aghan/Pakistan war is as wrong as any intended policy to be or stay there. O is wrong here.
McCain's militatistic posture and rhetoric however, which should not be dismissed, is over the top relative to Obama and scary.
But on this I bet we agree. I think every single US serviceman should be brought home, every base abroad closed.
*And imperfect though the process will be, unlike McCain, Obama has promised to start bringing personnel home from Iraq. And he does not sing, how insane, about bombing Iran.
An Imperfect world.
"Who do you hope to see in the White House for these next four years who has a reasonable and real chance of being elected?"
It will be McCain or Obama.
Okay, I'd done you the courtesy of replying, now answer my question,
What is the difference between Obama, Bush, and McCain's Iraq withdrawal plan? I don't want a rhetorical answer, please site specific policy differences.
taxes; McCain will make permanent Bush's tax cuts for the rich. Obama won't; There are a myriad of details, not rhetoric, starkly differentiating McCains and Obama's planned changes for the taxing of corporations and people.
Obama's favor the middle class. McCain's don't.
McCain's favor the rich. Obama's don't.
I googled mccain obama taxes; a plethora of info, all pointing to their different positions.
Let me say they differ not enough, not at all? in the Pakistan/Afghan War. Innocent lives infinitely more important than taxes.
Fair's fair, they are too much alike, but their are some distinctions, I and others posit critical. taxes, Iran, Iraq, Russia, programs for human beings....
And there is this; with al-Queda and the Taliban in Pakistan, striking US forces in Afghanistan any US president would be under tremendous pressure to act upon dead-certain intel pin-pointing a high enough value target, whether Zadari or Kitani liked it or not.
z sez:
""Who do you hope to see in the White House for these next four years who has a reasonable and real chance of being elected?"
It will be McCain or Obama.
Okay, I'd done you the courtesy of replying, now answer my question,"
[Sound of a loud buzzer]
You have not answered the question.
Please try again.
Hi ctrl-z; I'm promoting harmony. Lotta seventh chords cause this gives me the blues.
Nahh, It was pretty straight-forward, (also clearly something he enjoyed less than being in a fatal wreck,) when z conceded one the two stooges would win.
Implicit I'm thinking is that of the two, z does not prefer McCain.
Harmony. CD. Oneness.
Harmony & Oneness?
You mean like focusing on shared beliefs? A Common Dreams where each poster is treated with respect and treats others the same? A site where we advance our common cause and try to resolve our differences? A place where we could really improve the world?
[Okay, this is a Steve Martin pause here and the next text should be read with a Steve Martin sneer]
Nahhhhhhhhhh.
-------------------------------------------
Just kidding. I'll be curious to see the results of your experiment.
Exactly; And I have nothing but optimism and sunshiney expecations because I Love Everybody.
My experiment has already borne fruit.
And the snake says eat it.
And ctrl-z; if I'm assaulted, I know we'll both go SNL....
BestDay.
Should be High Comedy tomorrow listening to Sarah string irrelivant sound-bites together.
I believe that Obama suffers from a psychological problem where he needs to be liked by whatever person or audience is in front of him at the moment. He also wants to be seen as "intelligent".
I have questions for Obama:
Why are you so willing to spend billions on military spending and resource wars/war on terror/imperial aggression? Where will the money come from and what will you sacrifice in order to finance all of your "wars"?
Why is there never enough money for shoring up social security & medicare, single payer health care, mortgage relief, and other much needed social safety net needs, but always enough money to bailout Wall Street, increases in military spending, and tax breaks for the wealthiest?
If Republicans still a third straight election, will you fight for yourself or will you immediately concede "for the good of the country?"
"I believe that Obama suffers from a psychological problem where he needs to be liked by whatever person or audience is in front of him at the moment."
Brilliant! That would account for all the handshaking, baby kissing and appearances in front of large crowds. I mean, the way the guy behaves you'd think he was running for President or something.
"He also wants to be seen as "intelligent". "
I understand all the Harvard Law Review Editors who graduated magna cum laude are like that. Go figure.
Your questions are more a tirade in the form of questions with the exception of the last one:
If Republicans steal a third straight election, will you fight for yourself or will you immediately concede "for the good of the country?"
I hope he won't pull a Kerry on us if this happens again.
Obama: People need to understand it's not the governments job to take care of them. People need to learn to be responsible. Next, there's never enough money because we spend it so fast. If the election is stolen, don't worry. We will meet in a smoky room in Chicago and work out the deal. Either way we win. We always win. Good questions. Never lose hope! Yes we can! I am change! Next?
Obama: Damned good questions. I'll start with your first question. Because those war policies are what is in the best interest of those I serve. In that particular case I am serving the MIC. Now, your next question, the money will come out of your pocket and I will sacrifice social programs, such as Social Security.
Lisatranslucentcntrl-zwhateverthehellyouare,
Can you answer this?
What is the difference between Obama, Bush, and McCain's withdrawal plan?
"McCain: "We leave when Victory with honor is achieved." Never.
Obama: We start a phased withdrawal. He's said it over and over. "
That's not an answer. That's rhetoric. Do you understand the difference?
"al-Maliki, Would prefer to work with Obama, according to Juan Cole."
Juan Cole has never even met al-Maliki. He has no special knowledge of the inner working of his mind. He made his claim when Malaki had endorsed a timetable for withdrawal in an interview in Der Spiegel, which his spokesperson then denied, then Maliki affirmed it. Then, of course, Bush and McCain, also endorsed a timetable. Juan Cole, inferred from this that Maliki supports Obama. Juan Cole, you should mention, is a big Obama supporter. Do you think a McCain supporter might claim that Maliki wants McCain over Obama? Does it matter to you that Maliki has not endorsed either candidate?
"Iran; McCain Isolate. Obama, Talk."
Actually, if you watched the debates, you'd know their only difference was whether the president should meet with the countries deemed (by both of them) "enemies". McCain said he would send diplomats. Remember, they were debating what Kissinger said, "Kissinger: “Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level…”
"Russia? McCain's Foreign Policy mis-advisor helped start the conflict."
Sure, but their reaction was the same, blame Russia, support Georgia. The only difference was that Obama suggested deploying UN forces and McCain suggested NATO forces (and UN).
Even Bush is on board with the "timetable",
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
"they are not the same"
Right, they are slightly different. For example, they have different views on abortion and school vouchers. They have different views on tax cuts, but they are slowly drifting together.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5isOFwdbq0tsqatW6vJpkDRTI1gMgD931VVBO0
If you want to call them different, then talk about their actual differences, not your own delusions.
Hello z, Nice to hear from you.
z, without evading the question, obfuscating or dissmbling, can you answer this:
Who do you hope to see in the White House for these next four years who has a reasonable and real chance of being elected?
Remember now, a reasonable and real chance of being elected.
p.s; If you could segue away from the delusions kinda comments, that would be cool. I'll do my best too.
And how about this; all of us here posting on CD are intelligent, educated sincere people who want the best for this world, share core values, but see this one from different sides.
So z, I accuse you and all Obama Detractors of the above qualites-take that!
translucent
Okay, you've got the 'good cop' position nailed.
If they can't tell us apart now they never will.
Hit the bricks for Obama yet?
Discussing their "narratives" and then inferring from them how they would approach policy making is a not-so-clever way of avoiding discussing that their stated foreign policy goals are identical. Yes, their rhetoric is different, so what?
"Though a clear majority of the public still prefers Obama's approach of a phased withdrawal of combat troops on a timetable, a majority also trusts McCain more than Obama to handle the Iraq War"
What a bold faced lie! Bush, McCain and Obama all support the exact same phased withdrawal (redeployment) of (some, not all) combat troops on a (flexible) timetable.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080807/D92DMUHO0.html
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/25/mccain-timeline/
z.
Iraq.
McCain: "We leave when Victory with honor is achieved." Never.
Obama: We start a phased withdrawal. He's said it over and over.
al-Maliki, Would prefer to work with Obama, according to Juan Cole.
Iran; McCain Isolate. Obama, Talk.
Russia? McCain's Foreign Policy mis-advisor helped start the conflict.
z, they are not the same. and it is clear to the whole wide world.
It is not 4000 plus, it is 4176 dead Troops, hate 'em blame 'em yet they were once human beings too and we all can recite with indignation in our statements how many civilians have been murdered, one is too damn many.
myconscience, no it's not too late for anyone to vote for Dennis, as it stands #2 pencil and myself in that binary of a JO voting machine and I will vote for Dennis, I contribute to Dennis and Cindy yet I live in Philly and I know that truth shall never will out anymore but I sure as hell will.
Please with the 'Elites' everybody it now has taken on a life of its own.
I'd love it if Sheila Jackson-Lee, Barbara Lee or Maxine Waters was in the run for the roses but ya' know I'm just sayin'. That ' Lipstick on a Pig' thing, when the vote was happening on H.R.6043, Sheila Jackson-Lee was making her 1 minute speech and she said, "You can dress this thing up in any way you may try but what it amounts to is puttin' lipstick on a pig, NAY... Off she went.
BillofRights
This world has got enough problems as it is without letting a rewarmed Wilsonian "democrat" charge in and deepen the carnage that this country has launched in the Middle East inside of the pretense that we're defending our "interests". I ain't got no interest in warfare for the sake of empire, and I wouldn't vote for Obama at this point if he knocked on my door personally. I despise war criminals and the ideology of war criminality.
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VOTE NADER 2008 !!!!!!
End the wars
Bring the troops home
http://www.votenader.org/index.html
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FiddlerJones: May I ask who you hope to see in the White House these next four years?
Thanks.
Yes, that is a very tough question isn't it?
It's real easy not to answer, by saying there is no good answer.
Or saying "vote for Nader" who has no chance of being elected, any more than he did in his first four Runs. That's a total cop-out.
Young people are going to try to help bury a lot of Dinosaurs; McCain and Ralph will be two of them.
This article was written from within the thoroughly conventional and establishment-defending DPA framework or "logic".
Obama would run cost-benefit analyses, letting the specifics of each case override concerns as vague and fuzzy as national honor.
-what a morally bankrupt thing to say! How do you do a "cost-benefit" analysis of the taking of many thousands of lives for the profits of the already wealthy Big Oil and the MIC?
Obama the cerebral calculator of interests versus McCain the passionate warrior.
-exactly, no principles, no moral compass, just a plain-old simple mathematical equation figured out by a cerebral calculator where after the = sign comes the hefty profits for the PTB (powers that be) versus a more "patriotic" version of a plan that achieves the exact same outcome; death, misery and destruction for the unfortunate ones and huge profits for the oligarchy.
Take your pick but a vote for either is a vote for the SAME. Vote for 3rd parties which need to unite under one banner: We the People not We the Corporations, the Rich and the Military Industrial Complex!
Exactly.
We invited the hostility from Al-Qaeda and other organizations precisely because of our narrow, calculating, limited interest serving in the region. (Don't forget that Obama takes his cues from Brzezinski, the man who essentially spearheaded the Mujahideen effort in Afghanistan)
That being said, if we're concerned about security, as we should be, and if we're concerned about a coherent and moral strategy abroad, which isn't just fickle self-interest, and is consistent, yet also doesn't ignore some very substantive problems, (with Russia, China) I think the choice is apparent, no matter what that means for pet economic issues at home.
Furthermore, it's now up to the courts to reign in the unconstitutionality of this whole mess, which would be difficult under Obama, who has personally condoned signing statements and a number of other unqualified assertions of "executive prerogative."
Al Queda, for the umpteenth time, is a creation of the CIA and a front for neocon terrorism. Apparently, Al Queda is also of use for neolibs running for President. 911 was an INSIDE JOB. Brezinzski knows this, since he warned not that long ago of the possibility of another "false flag" operation like 911. Obama certainly knows this, too. Obama also denies knowledge of plans to create the North American Union, which is not only well documented, but openly discussed on U.S. television interviews by Vicente Fox, who participated in furthering the agenda as former president of Mexico. The current economic meltdown and destruction of the dollar and U.S. middle class is part of this progression which will not stop at the end of this administratin. Their is no morality in this race, only the feigning of morality.
&YYY&
Where ever the candidate spotlight goes, it takes the eyes from darkness.
Of what Politicians like to hide, with just one focus.
In the unlit darkness the looter parties shred and render the books of law,
Under covers the nation is a hollowed out shell, filled with distraction and war.
Political parasites drain the life of the nation, all is mortgaged and sold for keeps.
For you, Gaia is warming up coals of hell, as carbon dioxide upward leaps.
I'm not sure anyone knows what Senator Obama is yet. My radical friends still love him, which really, REALLY, worries me, progressives think he is a sell out. liberals fall all over the board. conservatives are scared to death he is a radical socialist or Marxist, Neocons are quite sure he is the second coming of Lenin.
I still don't know myself.
He's Bill Clinton II. All the promises about corporate restriction??? Right. His economic advisor was on the Board of Wal-Mart.
All the anti-war rhetoric?
He said he'd attack Pakistan indiscriminately and without consulting, notifying, or interacting with the Pakistani government.
He's whatever you want him to be.
Gutless and Spineless.
He's Bill Clinton.
In the hell of that North Vietnamese prison, he tells us at every opportunity, he learned that there are just two kinds of people: the selfish, who care more about indulging every whim than serving their country and who will surrender to evil as soon as the going gets tough; and the selfless, who sacrifice every personal advantage to protect and defend the honor of their country and are tough enough to fight on to victory, no matter how much they suffer in the process. In McCain's world, despite all his talk about bipartisanship, this dichotomy translates into a divide between "me-first" Democrats and "country-first" Republicans.
McCain admittedly broke down and accused his country of WAR CRIMES when the going got tough in that Vietnamese prison! What the hell is he talking about self-sacrifice? Then he milks every little drop out of his guilty part in America's lost war. How is that "country first"?
Republicans care about country first? I thought the epitome of McCain's last thirty years in Washington was summed up in free markets or capitalistic greed; a greed that makes the economy and hence the nation stronger since "greed is good for progress"?
Oh, I get it. So when Cheney and Halliburton take all those billions of dollars in no-bid privatized war contracts (that kill innocent people and ruin the country's reputation) to overseas tax-havens, that is "country first" and when Obama fights for lower class folks to make a fair wage that's "me first". It is so simple.
Sorry, I must be another "whiner".
Obama is 10x more straight forward than McCain!
It's amusing to watch all the intellectuals who support Obama do so much handwringing over their disappointment that he is a corporate sell out!! Perhaps if they could get a grip and abandon the Democratic party once and for all we could have real debates will real candidates who care more about us than themselves!
At this point in time, Obama is the only realistic choice for the progressives. Although he has "sold out" in some regards to the corporations, I do not believe he will turn his back on the little guy when it comes time, if elected.
Who do you want to vote for? Dennis K? Too late. He and you and I have failed once again to build a realistic independent party. So why throw stones at your best alternative?
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http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
OBAMA TOP CONTRIBUTORS
” You gotta dance with the one who brung ya ”
Read this also...
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/07/hbc-90003343
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/05/america/bundlers.php
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Nader/Gonzales is looking better and BETTER...
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VOTE NADER 2008 !!!!! WORLD PEACE !!!!!!! End THE WARS......
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Nader says...
"Wake up Americans! Cut the crap and take over."
VOTE NADER/GONZALEZ 2008… You’ll be glad you did and so will I…
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Nannie, if I weren't married and didn't have a wife who thinks like you, I'd probably ask to go out on a date with you. If America would only understand Nader, Mckinney, and even others such as Paul, Baldwin (though a bit too socially rough he does demand peace and defense only on the homeland rather than foreign intervention), and even Bob Barr who got a brain change, this country would give men and women who are sick and tired of the over macho egotistical mentality a voice. Sadly, neither the Republican nor Democrat camps want to even try.
I think you are being paid to say the same basic thing in every CD election post you enter. Every post I see you in contains this same basic premise..
The following was incorrectly posted on the article today by Arnow, when it should have been posted here, since it was Chernus who used the term "moral pragmatism" (a good one) to describe Obama's approach, although it was Arnow not Chernus who used the language of "frames" in contrasting the foreign policy approaches of Obama and McCain.
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I'd like to see a stronger and more coherent statement of a "frame" which might be considered a progressive frame if Obama's foreign policy is indeed to be seen within the realm of a progressive foreign policy. There is the making of such a frame in the history of the Democratic Party, from Presidents Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy, if not the more recent ones, Johnson, Carter and Clinton. The key should be FDR's articulation of a "good neighbor" policy toward Latin America to replace the neighborhood bully tradition of relations in that area (a policy of course abrogated by Reagan). Within that frame as well would be Truman's efforts toward the establishment of the United Nations and the Peace Corps initiative of JFK. In all these cases, the emphasis is on the U.S. as a member and not as the dominating "leader" of the world, eschewing the frame of national pride and "defense of freedom" toughness within which McCain locates his foreign policy frame. The author's articulation of an Obama frame of "moral pragatism" which accepts the premise of an all-threatening world terrorism which is countered by negotiation and diplomacy rather than military force (except, pragmatically, as an instrument of last resort) is outstandingly vulnerable to being out-framed by the national honor frame. Whether the expected October surprise of a major terrorist attack materializes or not, the swift-boating assassins in the GOP camp are already busy tainting Obama as a "Muslim" while they distribute copies of the anti-Muslim film "Obsession" in swing states; Obama cannot of course to be trusted in dealing with a terrorist attack from Muslim sources. The present (confused) version of an Obama foreign policy frame seems to be a recipe for defeat, at least on the foreign policy front, which could again supersede "economy stupid" campaign considerations in the event of an almost-certain international crisis. Only, I think, a Democratic frame that returns to the vision of the U.S. as a world citizen and not as a "full spectrum" dominator will the campaign find a "winning" frame. But wasn't that Lakoff's point: that Republicans consistently out-do Democrats in their constructions of frames with broad popular appeal?
Prof. Chernus surprises me.
"The answer to that second question turned out to be a disappointing and surprising negative."
The obvious should not be surprising.
"But they weren't the old-fashioned kinds of global narratives. Neither side has a clear ideological or geopolitical vision."
What the ...!? Empire is as old-fashioned a geopolitical vision as it gets.
"When it comes to foreign policy, then, the heart and the gut can still sometimes win out over the head."
The heart wins over the head in virtually everything.
Maybe he wrote this while ill or pressed for time.
Religions are anointed guardians of morality. Republicans understood that coopted religion is coopted morality.
"And moral style seems to be what most voters care about most. In poll after poll, a majority of voters say that they base their decision on factors other than the candidates' stands on the issues."
Moralism without Prgagmatism is a fools errand. There is only one candidate left.
...and vice versa!
...and vice versa!
.But, as you unintentionally note ( or was it?), one must gag to vote Prgagmatically for him.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Absolutely, catagorically intentional I assure you.
You certainly went the distance and back to attempt to spin a positive light on Obama's total lack of leadership qualities. However, just because you want to label him as a "prudent pragmatist", doesn't mean you can get away with that type of revisionism without making a strong case... or any real case at all.
I see him as neither prudent nor pragmatic.
I see him as just one more sellout to corporatist money interests.
If you want to suggest that all the other politicians who have sold "We the People" to CheneyOilCo are also "prudent pragmatists", then yes... under your definition, I would agree. Obama is definitely MORE OF THE SAME!
He is a power-hungry liar who is willing to give others with power, anything they want in order to achieve his goal... and it is HIS goal that he strives for... not ours. The only thing that he will share with us is "hope" and "change".
A "hope" that we will believe his lies long enough that he can slip into power, and a bit of spare "change" that might be left over after he throws the spoils of our Treasure at the criminals on Wall Street.
Neither of them are right for America. Both belong to money... not the people. They "serve" greed. If we ever needed an absolutely crystal clear illustration... you only have to look at what they are attempting to pull off.
You wrote in part: "But the candidates failed to make these connections or tell a compelling story about how they would remake U.S. foreign policy and, by extension, the U.S. economy."
It's the other way around. Remake the economy by intelligently addressing energy needs with self-reliant renewable technologies... and most of our foreign policies are automatically changed. No more empire-building to get at "our oil that is under their sand".
$600 billion powers 75% of America's homes and electric cars for practically nothing and creates industry and jobs. The extra $100 billion kickstarts the new national energy distribution system.
... or give it to the criminals. What does Obama want to do? Oh yes, according to your spin, the prudent and pragmatic thing... of course. In my world, actions speak louder than words... and his actions have shouted ever so louldly. His loss.
toasted flake sez: "I see him as just one more sellout to corporatist money interests."
www.OpenSecrets.org sez of Obama:
"He's had no problem bringing in the money or appealing to new donors, and has relied on small online donors and bigger donors nearly equally..."
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
.Any honest list of donors would quickly show Obama taking more of Wall Street money than McCain...and your point?
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
McCain's campaign manager was taking half a million per year from Freddie/Fannie MacMae alone. Don't believe the hype about Obama being more connected to Wall St.
Also, just because he accepts money from Wall St doesn't guarantee that he will sell his soul. It doesn't look good, anyone would admit.
Obama has already sold his soul, along with the rest of the Democratic leadership. In my opinion, Obama has undergone careful grooming to get where he is. I don't think he passed up a lucrative law career for altruistic reasons. He needed at least some creds to run for higher office in the Democratic party. I really don't see much in his record, especially the last few years to remotely qualify him as a "champion of the people".
I don't see any meaningful critique in this article--just skirting around the issues of morality, pragmatism, and globalism. Both candidates are fronting the bogus War On Terror as well as the orchestrated "Economic 911", which is part of the War on the People of the U.S.
maybe it never was about Obama. maybe its about Biden-the Zionist.
ctrl-duh... are you suggesting that he isn't bought by corporatists? Make your case solidly. It's not enough to point to the fact that he has additional income. He's in bed with all the rest of the greed machine. Deny it and back it up.
Come on toastermuffin, don't tell me you've actually deluded yourself into thinking he's a sellout because he got donations from corporations. You've seen the stats from www.OpenSource.org You figure repeating the same nonsense often enough will make it true. It doesn't.
Using your logic, Nader has sold out to the corporatists. Look at his major donor list:
Farouk Systems $9,200
Falconwood Corp $6,600
University of Massachusetts $4,650
Financial West Group $4,600
GH Palmer Assoc $4,600
Kayline Enterprises $4,600
Genentech Inc $4,600
Jigsaw Production $4,600
Twin Tier Pathology Assoc $4,600
Seabree Partners Mgt $4,600
Luigino's Inc $4,600
Alpha Garment $4,600
Rizk Construction $4,600
American Church $4,570
Ann Taylor Corp $4,300
University of South Carolina $4,300
James Odling $4,100
Scsra $4,100
Proven Managment $3,800
Lynx Investment Advisory $3,300
Yes, looking at the list it's obious Nader sold out.
Here's Obamas Top Contributers link (again):
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
Toasted Flake - I'm not putting this up for you. I know no amount of facts will change your mind. I'm posting it for those who might be misled by your repetitive nonsense.
Thank you. I wanted to see how far you would go to defend corruption... and yes corporatist ownership of the ruling class is a corruption that needs drastic surgery.
That you defend Obama by pointing to other candidates who may or may not be guilty of the same practices exposes you for the fraud you are.
See... they do it too!!! What a joke.
You support corporatist ownership of politicians. Period.
What in the hell makes you believe that I support Nader??? I have NEVER made that statement. Your defense is laughable... at best.
Next time get your misguided "assumptions" straight... ctrl-duuuuh!
You're exactly right.
If only we could form a group of people who had enough time to focus on addressing this problem.
But I guess then that would constitute a corporation.
Never mind.
Ummmm..the point isn't dependent on your support of Nader...
Yawn.....just turn out the light when you're done.
One guy isn't going to make America change direction again. George has done his job. And the greedy ignorant wimp is still trying to pay for love and respect from his corporate masters. Our country has been hijacked by corporate America and until the hijackers are dealt with we will continue to be threatened and bullied and killed. The Empire Express is running wildly out of control with no one at the wheel, and the brakes malfunctioning. Money is the glue needed to hold on during this time when the tracks that the express runs on are buckling and breaking beneath the weight of supporting a suicidal empire. The trickle up policy of financing the empire is bleeding the poor and bankrupting the middle class. We don’t need a new President. We need a new way of life.
Hoa binh
..for resourceful read money full
To a large extent I agree with the author; no talent in this show of an election whatsoever. No, it's not the economy stupid, it's the appaling poor quality of the candidates thats the problem. Actually, the economy may be a help as the world and many U.S. Americans begin to lose confidence in the financial system, the stock market and the governance of the nation, the U.S. will soon occupy it's rightful place on the world stage equal to the quality of it's governance, the bottom third. If the U.S. doesn't pull in it's horns, withdraw it's troops, reduce the imperial footprint and quickly, China will bury the U.S. in less than 50 years.
Basically, Obama is a better candidate than McCain because Obama is smarter and more resourceful.
q
.But does this make him a better choice for the voter? Smart is an asset, being resourceful is also an asset, but having the correct position on the issues is the greatest asset a candidate can possess.....
There have been many smart and resourceful folks elevated to leadership roles, Stalin, Pol Pot, Amadinajhad, Olmert, Sadaam Hussein....alll very smart folks in fact, and resourceful as all get out. Now before you flip your lid I am not, not in any way, comparing your chosen candidate to these folks, only making a broad brush statement about what you claim for Barack Obama....perhaps you need more depth in your analysis.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"....perhaps you need more depth in your analysis."
Congratulations!!! You win today's 'Unintentional Irony' award!!!
The prize is a quote by Anais Nin!!!!!!
"I have not been unaware of the political drama
going on, but I have not taken any sides because
politics to me, all of them seem rotten to the core
and all based on economics , not humanitarianism.
The suffering of the word seemed to me without
remedy except by what we could give individually.
I did not trust any movement or system..."
Anais Nin
http://www.anaisnin.com/quote/index.html
Very funny!
What is the right side of the issue(s)? What issue?
Based on the past of the candidates, McCain generally sides with the power elites. Obama on the other hand, generally, sides with the little guys.
Thanks.