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Debate Evades Dark Realities
Perhaps it's unrealistic to expect a U.S. presidential debate to deal substantively - and honestly - with wrongful actions by the American government, even at the end of George W. Bush's eight-year reign as one of the planet's preeminent rogue operatives.
The acceptable political parameters may allow some tactical disagreements (Barack Obama saying the Iraq War "took our eye off the ball") or even some implied moral criticism (John McCain saying he opposed Bush "on torture of prisoners").
But there's no place for a serious discussion of wholesale U.S. war crimes, such as Bush's decision to launch an aggressive war under false pretenses, the sort of offense that the Nuremberg Tribunal after World War II called the "supreme" international crime.
In a healthy democracy, moderator Jim Lehrer might have been expected to ask Obama and McCain whether President Bush should be shipped off to The Hague for a trial as a war criminal or whether he should be put before American courts to face serious criminal charges, such as violation of anti-torture statutes.
There might be a question, too, about hypocrisy: how can Obama and McCain so righteously condemn Russia for its alleged aggression against Georgia (after Georgia attacked the pro-Russian province of South Ossetia) when the United States has asserted its right not only to invade Iraq (under Bush) but to attack Yugoslavia when it was throttling a separatist movement in Kosovo (as Bill Clinton did)?
Granted, endless double standards have become part of the American political landscape. Many journalists and politicians have avoided criticizing the illegality or immorality of U.S. foreign interventions since 1984 when U.N. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick famously chastised anyone who would "blame America first."
Since then, questions about American misconduct had to be muted for fear that any criticism would be labeled unpatriotic or disloyal. Mainstream journalists and politicians learned to couch their concerns about U.S. foreign policy as questions about tactics or effectiveness.
Arguably, however, that timidity has contributed to the frequency, brutality and criminality of U.S. military actions. It is hard to explain the Iraq War, for instance, without observing that Bush and his neoconservative advisers were confident they could roll both Congress and the Washington press corps.
Knowing that few people of conscience would dare stand in the way, Bush and the neocons sold the war based on false allegations about WMD and a historically unprecedented claim that the United States had the right to intervene preemptively anywhere in the world if it could foresee some possible future threat to its security.
This so-called Bush Doctrine meant that the United States and its political leadership had stepped beyond the reach of international law. Even as President Bush railed about the need to eliminate "rogue" regimes, he was turning the U.S. into the ultimate "rogue" state.
(Interestingly, ABC News anchor Charles Gibson did ask Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin about the Bush Doctrine in the Republican vice presidential nominee's first prime-time debate, and she flubbed the answer, seeming not to know that the Bush Doctrine was.)
Not Mentioned
For Lehrer's part, however, this stunning doctrine was never mentioned in the debate between the two politicians seeking to succeed President Bush. Only implicitly was it clear that McCain supported the notion of intervening aggressively abroad and that Obama was somewhat less eager to send troops on overseas missions.
Though a constitutional law scholar, Obama avoided posing either a moral or legal argument against Bush-style interventionism. Instead, he posited his opposition to the Iraq War on practical grounds.
"Six years ago, I stood up and opposed this war," Obama said, "because I said that not only did we not know how much it was going to cost, what our exit strategy might be, how it would affect our relationships around the world and whether our intelligence was sound but also because we hadn't finished the job in Afghanistan.
"We hadn't caught bin Laden. We hadn't put Al Qaeda to rest. And as a consequence, I thought that it was going to be a distraction."
Obama also cited the war's extraordinary cost to the U.S. Treasury (over $600 billion and sure to pass $1 trillion), the blood shed by American soldiers (more than 4,000 dead and 30,000 wounded), and the fact that "Al Qaeda is resurgent" in secure base camps along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
Obama concluded that "we did not use our military wisely in Iraq."
While there can be little doubt about the accuracy of his points, Obama dodged the larger question of whether the Bush Doctrine was illegal and immoral, nor did he mention the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the unnecessary invasion that turned their country into a living hell.
If Obama had ventured into that territory, he surely would have invited accusations that he was "blaming America first." Or if he had compared Russian actions in South Ossetia to NATO's intervention to protect Kosovo, he would have faced charges of "moral equivalence," a favorite neocon attack line that essentially argues that the United States cannot be held to the same standards as other nations.
So Obama retreated behind a defensive line of what's practical and what's not.
McCain's Counterattack
That opened Obama to McCain's own practical arguments, that whatever the initial mistakes in Iraq, the real question now is what can be done.
"The next President of the United States is not going to have to address the issue as to whether we went into Iraq or not," McCain said. "The next President of the United States is going to have to decide how we leave, when we leave, and what we leave behind."
McCain mocked Obama's proposal for a withdrawal timetable and insisted that victory was the only acceptable outcome.
Faced with McCain's flurry of attacks, Obama didn't even respond by noting that the Iraqi government has been insisting on a withdrawal time frame for American troops and that the White House has generally accepted that idea.
Indeed, the end result of all the U.S. sacrifice in blood and treasure in Iraq might well be the Iraqis saying "thanks, but no thanks" to a continued U.S. presence - or Washington laying bare its imperialist designs by staying regardless of what the Iraqis want.
Obama also chose not to reengage in a debate over whether McCain's "successful surge" argument is a reality or a myth. Over the past several months, Obama has been pummeled in interview after interview for not completely accepting the current conventional wisdom that the "surge" has worked and that McCain deserves credit.
For instance, on Sept. 7, ABC's "This Week" host George Stephanopoulos demanded of Obama: "How do you escape the logic that ... John McCain was right about the surge," dispatching an additional 30,000 combat troops to Iraq.
When Obama responded that he couldn't understand "why people are so focused on what has happened in the last year and a half and not on the previous five," Stephanopoulos cut him off, saying "Granted, you think you made the right decision about going in, but about the surge?"
Again, this was a case of a limited frame allowed by the major U.S. news media giving McCain a strong advantage. It is now widely accepted in Washington - despite evidence to the contrary - that the "surge" was the singular reason for the drop in Iraq's violence.
This conventional wisdom has prevailed even though it is challenged by military officials interviewed for Bob Woodward's new book, The War Within. Some of Woodward's sources saw the "surge" as more of a secondary factor.
As Woodward writes, "In Washington, conventional wisdom translated these events into a simple view: The surge had worked. But the full story was more complicated. At least three other factors were as important as, or even more important than, the surge."
Woodward, whose book draws heavily from Pentagon insiders, reported that the Sunni rejection of al-Qaeda extremists in Anbar province (which preceded the surge) and the surprise decision of radical Shiite leader Moqtada al-Sadr to order a unilateral cease-fire by his militia were two important factors.
A third factor, which Woodward argued may have been the most significant, was the use of new highly classified U.S. intelligence tactics that allowed for rapid targeting and killing of insurgent leaders. Woodward agreed to withhold details of these secret techniques from his book so as not to undercut their continuing success.
But there have been previous glimpses of classified U.S. programs that combine high-tech means of identifying insurgents - such as sophisticated biometrics and night-vision-equipped drones - with old-fashioned brutality on the ground, including on-the-spot executions of suspects. [For details, see Consortiumnews.com's "Bush's Global Dirty War" and "Iraq's Laboratory of Repression."]
Successful Repression
As we've reported previously, other brutal factors - that the Washington press corps almost never mentions - help explain the decline in violence:
Vicious ethnic cleansing has succeeded in separating Sunnis and Shiites to such a degree that there are fewer targets to kill. Several million Iraqis are estimated to be refugees either in neighboring countries or within their own.
- Concrete walls built between Sunni and Shiite areas have made "death-squad" raids more difficult but also have "cantonized" much of Baghdad and other Iraqi cities, making everyday life for Iraqis even more exhausting as they seek food or travel to work.
- During the "surge," U.S. forces expanded a policy of rounding up so-called "military age males" and locking up tens of thousands in prison.
- Awesome U.S. firepower, concentrated on Iraqi insurgents and civilian bystanders for more than five years, has slaughtered countless thousands of Iraqis and has intimidated many others to look simply to their own survival.
- With the total Iraqi death toll estimated in the hundreds of thousands and many more Iraqis horribly maimed, the society has been deeply traumatized. As tyrants have learned throughout history, at some point violent repression does work.
But this dark side of the "successful surge" is excluded from the U.S. political debate, much like the illegality of Bush's original invasion.
That blindness to what might be the most important geopolitical question of this era - the presumed Bush Doctrine right of the United States to invade any country of its choosing - has now continued into the presidential debates.




87 Comments so far
Show AllMy question for John McCain: explain to me what you mean by "victory" in Iraq? In full detail.
I'm sure he means not having to take our remaining people off the embassy roof just ahead of the tanks. That would be my guess.
Yeah, It would be nice if the pundits had asked Bush what he meant by "Freedom".
Wage slavery?, no healthcare? foreclosure? lost retirement? shreaded Constitution?
A brilliant article that cuts to the heart of what's wrong with American politics and media. So, what do we do about it?
"....Though a constitutional law scholar, Obama avoided posing either a moral or legal argument against Bush-style interventionism"
I've been bringing this up lately in my conversations about Obama with people. Surely a constitutional law professor would be well-suited to restore the balance between our branches of government...but I do not think he has mentioned anything about the Constitution.
RichM
No matter what the issue, your response/solution always involves not voting for Obama.
If your post above is accurate, it's not just Obama, you wouldn't want any Democrat or Republican party candidate elected.
So all your attacks on Obama are just in the interest of getting people not to vote.
You don't really care how good or bad Obama is.
But you do everything you can to try to convince others not to vote for him.
McCain must love you.
RichM
Very well stated.
The point is RichM, if the Democratic candidate walked on water you'd still attack him/her because you are against the two-party system.
You are not objective about Obama because you are pre-disposed to looking for things to attack.
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"The truth is that Republicans -- miserable & rotten as they are -- would be entirely harmless if Democrats ever stood up to them. But Democrats never stand up to them. You should ask yourself why that is."
I think they've made a political calculation to avoid giving the Republicans political ammunition to use against them. I don't agree with it, but I think that's why they fold.
RichM
Excellent rebuttal.
I'll stand by what I wrote before. You are prejudiced against any Democratic candidate because supporting a Democratic candidate would be supporting a system you want to replace.
As for the issue of the ' D's never stand up to R's' it's the same thing. You are looking for issues to bolster your position that the two-party system is broken and needs replacement. So an explanation that makes the Dems behavior understandable is, to you, a rationalization.
You wrote: "The most they ever do is try to CREATE THE IMPRESSION of "trying to stand up to Republicans." This has been going on for many decades already."
Nonsense. If the parties were working together to try to give the false impression that they were robust opposition parties, they'd do a better job of it.
The best thing about banging one's head against the wall is that it feels so good to stop. You attempt to debate with one who is so completely out of touch with the political realities, one whose rabid partisanship ( does he walk around with his head up a donkey's ass?) prevents him from noting that we who reject the candidacy of Barack Obama do so with a logical and thoughtful appraisal of both his track record and that of his party.
His responses would indicate his intolerance of any sort of criticisms, almost as if, instead of the rational argument you had made, you had told him his mother wears combat boots.....I never cease to wonder at such a blind and unreasoning loyalty, one that prevents any sort of logical response, only bitter invective and sophomoric accusations, and to a response that I considered well reasoned and polite as well...so sad, too bad, he aint worth it.
He really should devote more time to his High School civics classes....
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee
I agree. When one attempts to point out Obama's militarism to Obama's fans, they all too often respond with an emotional outburst, claiming that those critical of Obama must be a "troll" or, worse, a neoconservative while never wishing to recognize that their candidate's neoliberal policies are just as destructive as the policies of the neoconservatives.
The most primitive of the defense mechanisms are considered to be primitive because they fundamentally rely on blatant misrepresentation or outright ignoring of reality in order to function. These mechanisms flourish in situations (and minds) where emotion trumps reason and impulsivity rules the day. Children use them naturally and normally, but then again, children are by definition emotionally immature and not held to a higher standard as are adults. When adults use these methods on a regular basis, it is an indication that their emotional development is at some level delayed.
Denial; an outright refusal or inability to accept some aspect of reality that is troubling. For example: "this thing has not happened" when it actually has.
Splitting; a person cannot stand the thought that someone might have both good and bad aspects, so they polarize their view of that person as someone who is "all good" or "all bad". Any evidence to the contrary is ignored. For example: "My boss is evil", after being let go from work, when in reality, the boss had no choice in the matter and was acting under orders herself. Splitting functions by way of
Dissociation, which is an ability people have in varying amounts to be able to wall off certain experiences and not think about them.
Projection; a person's thought or emotion about another person, place or thing is too troubling to admit, and so, that thought or emotion is attributed to originate from that other person, place or thing. For example: "He hates me", when it is actually the speaker who hates. A variation on the theme of Projection is known as "Externalization". In Externalization, you blame others for your problems rather than owning up to any role you may play in causing them.
Passive-aggression; A thought or feeling is not acceptable enough to a person to be allowed direct expression. Instead, that person behaves in an indirect manner that expresses the thought or emotion. For example: Failing to wash your hands before cooking when you normally would, and happen to be cooking for someone you don't like.
Acting out; an inability to be thoughtful about an impulse. The impulse is expressed directly without any reflection or consideration as to whether it is a good idea to do so. For example: a person attacks another person in a fit of anger without stopping to consider that this could seriously wound or disfigure that other person and/or possibly result in legal problems.
Fantasy; engaging in daydreams about how things should be, rather than doing anything about how things are. For example: Daydreaming of killing a bully, instead of taking concrete action to stop the bully from bothering you.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9791&cn=353
RichM: Excellent post. Very well stated. It leaves unanswered the question of whether to vote 3rd party or just skip voting altogether. I've decided to vote for Cynthia McKinney, because she represents my values, whereas Obama does not. And yet I'm aware the deck is stacked against 3rd parties, and she cannot possibly win. But she could conceivably get 5% (admittedly, it's unlikely) and qualify for matching funds for the Green Party, which is certainly a worthwhile goal.
suckerbeagle
Show them that they don't automatically get our votes. www.votenader.org
"...the United States has asserted its right not only to invade Iraq (under Bush) but to attack Yugoslavia when it was throttling a separatist movement in Kosovo (as Bill Clinton did)?"
Is this a joke?
Did Mr. Parry somehow miss the genocide in what he euphemistically calls "throttling a separatist movement" in Yugoslavia?
Does the name Milošević ring a small bell in Mr. Parry's brain?
Does he have some final refutation of the State Department's calculation that 500,000 Kosovar Albanians were missing and feared dead?
Was Mr. Parry out to lunch at the time of the Račak massacre?
Was there some parallel to genocidal Serbian militias in Georgia's suppression of their break-away republics?
I agree with most of Mr. Parry's article, but his ludicrous comparison between Georgia and Kosovo discredits the rest of it.
Jacob Freeze
Rich M points are well taken.
But why did the the US/Nato side with the Albanian thugs? They sided with the Albanians for the same old usual reason - Serbia wanted to pursue an independent socialist path of economic development. And there is NO sin - even slaughtering a million people, that is greater than that.
I am so sick of brain-dead apologists for Serbian murderers like Ratko Mladic, Radovan Karadzic, and Slobodan Milosevic!
Why didn't the US just watch while Serbia turned Kosovo into a bigger and better version of Srebrenica? After all, it was only in Srebrenica that the Serbs had previously committed genocide so obviously that they could actually be convicted of crimes against humanity! From such trifling evidence, who would leap to totally unfounded assumptions about their intentions in Kosovo? One little genocide on their record... It's almost like making a fuss about a parking ticket!
Yes indeed, it has been difficult to prove Serbia's genocidal intentions according the the high international threshold, and all we really have is a long record of "mass rape, ethnic cleansing and torture in concentration camps and detention centers."
"Despite the evidence of widespread killings, the siege of towns, mass rape, ethnic cleansing and torture in concentration camps and detention centers conducted by different Serb forces including JNA (VJ), especially in Prijedor, Zvornik, Banja Luka and Foča, the judges ruled that the criteria for genocide with the specific intent (dolus specialis) to destroy Bosnian Muslims were met only in Srebrenica or Eastern Bosnia in 1995.[4]"
Human Rights Watch provides a convenient overview of Serbian intentions:
"The operations that began in late March 1999 went far beyond counterinsurgency: Serbian and Yugoslav forces carried out a systematic campaign of violence and forcible depopulation that left an estimated 80 percent of the civilians displaced from their homes.7 Areas with no history of support for the KLA and which had previously escaped the violence in Drenica and southwestern Kosovo, such as Pristina and eastern Kosovo, were targeted for mass expulsion. The killing and terror against civilians began to encompass any area with a current or historic link to the KLA, as well as some areas without any such link. In short, localized counterinsurgency was joined by systematic "ethnic cleansing."
Slobodan Milosevic, the White Knight of Serbian apologists like RichM, died during his trial for crimes against humanity at the Hague war crimes tribunal, and so his fans can celebrate the happy fact that at least in this instance, the question of genocide is effectively moot.
Jacob Freeze
A friend, Ellen Wilbur, wrote: "I was so disappointed in Obama last night. Yes, I will still vote for him as opposed to the McCain/Palin monstrosity, but how can any man running for the presidency talk about "killing" someone, even if the man is Bin Laden. I did not hear ANY talk of the CHANGE Obama is supposed to represent. Maybe only a woman COULD stand up and say (running for president) that it is time to try to put an end to war, that all leaders of this shrinking modern world should be willing to talk to each other seriously and respectfully and intelligently as ADULTS who want peace for their nations and to join together to save this planet. That was the "Change" I was hoping for in Obama, but it seems that politics and the need for tough talk if you are an American male has done its job on Obama. I don't have much excitement about him anymore."
I heard an interesting comment by an evangelical Christian on npr this morning. I wish I had gotten the name. His world view is not black and white with a list of social conservative musts (such as being anti-abortion). He is looking at the character of the candidates, and characterizes McCain as a "warrior" and Obama as a "healer".
It is discouraging to see Obama do Gore/Kerry-like dances and flip flops to get elected, but I guess he has to look tough to offset neocon accusations and scare mongering. The question isn't if he really wants to change things, its how succesful will he be.
While I don't say that Obama and McCain are exactly the same, they are both on the same path (US military imperialism under the cover of spreading 'democracy'); they both fail to meet the minimum necessary standards for a president who will lead based on justice, peace, and transparency. They both fail as presidential candidates, though they both may represent the majority of the American people, which fails to hold people accountable or willing to change the system that produced the current problems (which did not occur overnight).
Ralph Nader interviewed by Gregg LaGambina in A.V. Club
September 25th, 2008
AVC: By your own admission, the Bush administration is one of the worst in recent memory. Going by what you've said in the past about how the lesser of two evils is still evil, do you see McCain and Obama as indistinguishable? If you agree that McCain would be an extension of Bush's policy, wouldn't Obama be at least a smidgen less evil? And isn't that reason enough to vote for him?
Ralph Nader: Let's accept your premise. Here's my response. The lesser of two evils, or the least of the worst, is not good enough for the American people anymore. They've both gone down below the flunk bar. When you consider Democrats today compared to Democrats in the '60s—ha! Democrats today are overwhelmed with what might be called, indelicately, anal flutter.
AVC: Anal flutter? That's a new one.
Ralph Nader: In other words, they have no political fortitude. They're always trying to engage in protective imitation of the Republicans—"More soldiers in Iraq" or "I'm John Kerry and I'm ready for duty." [Adopts tough-guy voice.] "We wouldn't have pulled out of Fallujah!" he says to Bush in the first debate. So, after the election, Bush blew Fallujah apart. Obama swings back and forth—hope, change, hope, change—like a metronome, inducing hypnosis. And McCain is the candidate of perpetual war and omnipresent military bases.
[for rest of article, go to http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/ralph_nader/1]
www.NotOneMore.US
Found this website where it asks you questions and then tells you which candidate is closest to supporting your views.
http://www.vajoe.com/candidate_calculator.html
Even though it is a military slanted website, it worked for me. It included 6 presidential candidates that it was judging your views against (as opposed to many which only have the two corporate candidates).
I clicked on the link. My #1 (by far: 97%!) was Ralph Nader. Cynthia McKinney came in 2nd, and surprisingly John McCain came in 6th, with 17%! I was surprised that Barr and Baldwin came up higher than McCain for me. I would love for Obama supporters to click on it!
I took the test leaving everything in the medium range, and came out Nader, 90%; McKinney 81%, and Obama 76%. Then I retook it, putting some of the items on "high" and came out with Nader, then Obama, and McKinney. Both had McCain last, at below 20%. That was cool. Thanks for posting the site.
I am proud to say that my "McCain" score came out at 4.7%
On the gun control issue, I stayed neutral although I do support background checks but not outright bans.
Overall, I ended up 94% Nader, 82% Obama, 76% Mckinney, 53% Barr, 47% Baldwin, 11% Mccain !
Frederick Johnson & others
I think that you may find this take on the debate [How Lucky We Are] to be of interest. If you scroll down past that entry, you will find, I believe, the next entry [I Approve This Message- youtube] to be particularly pertinent.
http://dennisperrin.blogspot.com/
Neat site...Thanks.
My match...
Ralph Nader (Independant) 92.65% match
Cynthia McKinney (Green Party) - 75.00%
Barack Obama (Democrat) - 63.97%
Bob Barr (Libertarian) - 51.47%
Chuck Baldwin (Constitution) - 39.71%
John McCain (Republican) - 14.71%
i got nader, 86% ..mccain 22%.....each vote topic has a nice definition of the vote issue
The calculator compiles the most popular responses from all voters to create a composite candidate, a candidate whose views match most with the average responses of users.
Barack Obama (Democrat) - 38.64%
Ralph Nader (Independant) - 29.55%
Bob Barr (Libertarian) - 25.00%
John McCain (Republican) - 22.73%
Cynthia McKinney (Green Party) - 22.73%
Chuck Baldwin (Constitution) - 18.18%
approx. 43,000+ survey
Nice
Nader 91.49% match
Barack Obama (Democrat) - 70.21%
Cynthia McKinney (Green Party) - 70.21%
Bob Barr (Libertarian) - 63.83%
Chuck Baldwin (Constitution) - 46.81%
John McCain (Republican) - 21.28%
Nader's cool, but I'm going with the candidate who can beat McCain----can you guess who?
Gallop---Obama 52 McCain 41
The article says:
"Obama didn't even respond by noting that the Iraqi government has been insisting on a withdrawal time frame for American troops and that the White House has generally accepted that idea."
The problem is that the White House is always lying.
US troops won't leave until the whole region is a puppet government for the USA and the place is riddled with CIA, US military bases, Blackwater headquarters, Halliburton construction sites and oil and gas pipelines. (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc., etc)
"The problem is that the White House is always lying."
That is true. Unfortunately, the media and Congress going along with those lies. The Republicans and Democrats had a chance to show that they had an understanding of checks and balances but they FAILED.
"US troops won't leave until the whole region is a puppet government for the USA and the place is riddled with CIA, US military bases, Blackwater headquarters, Halliburton construction sites and oil and gas pipelines. (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc., etc)"
That or until the oil dries up or our military is stretched so thin that it all becomes too costly to maintain the occupation in Iraq. My guess is that global oil production has already started peaking in 2005 and this year alone it has only gotten really worse given a sharper rise in gas prices. The prices may have come down a little starting in mid July but only because this is an election season. It will go up and even sharper than this year once the election is over. Add the stronger likelyhood that the crisis on Wall $treet is only going to worsen even more next year and with some luck more people will join in and call their Congress people to stop funding the war machine.
Yes, I agree, we've already hit peak oil. Even if there are billions of barrels left in the ground. The cost of appropriating them for the American lifestyle of overconsumption and toxic affluence has already proven to be higher than the value of the resource.
That, along with the complete corruption in the the war machine and related businesses that make this possible (and the Flim Flam the government is now trying to palm off on the public) means we the people will never see the benefits of any of the government's desperate actions.
Until the real cost of environmental degradation, lives lost and destroyed and the missing billions that have gone to the legalized gangster cabal in Washington are added up, we Americans will never know the true price of a gallon of gas.
In as much as the body politic is irrelevant to the process, as evidenced by the contempt with which the overwhelming majority of the DNC wonks, members of both Houses from both parties, and, of course, the neo-cons have:
* ignored the established ~76% disapproval of the erestwhile "bailout;"
* ignored the "mandate" given Pelosi and Reid to restore accountabliity in:
- Congressional oversight of the executive;
- reigning-in continued rapacious economic deregulation,
privitization and corportist profiteering in all facets of our
economic lives;
- environmental matters;
- enegy policy;
- amongst the many other abuses of power
in favor of business as usual, (greed, hubris & cronyism);
* ignored the clear majority abhorrance to the Iraq carnage wrought in our names;
* rolled-over on the Patriot Act, torture, habeus corpus, domestic spying,
ad nauseum
the only conclusion I can come to is that I, amongst the bulk of us who rant against the failing Americcan state can look forward to time behind the wire under the "civilizing" influence of Blackwater and thier ilk.
Complain, march, write, speak, or vote as we may, even when clearly in the majority, we American citizens no longer matter. What we think, what we pay for, what we stand for, what we work for have all become irrelevant.
The difference between Graham and Pelosi is a matter of degree, not of substance, and with the exception of a handful of legislators whose work has been marginalized by the duopoly, (Wexler, Kuccinich, amongst a gallant few), there has been no effective opposition.
The kowtowing to the Republican line by Obama makes my teeth itch. His timidity in the farcical debate shows no stand beyond neo-light.
I'm disgusted. Sick to my stomach. And angry as hell.
Impotence does that to one.
Political Viagra is called for!!!
Not one more - I took the test and got Nader.
RichM - great you are helping clear up proaganda about Yugoslavia.
As I wrote on another thread, I emailed the Obama campaign and told them if that if Obama wasnt going to totally repudiate, denounce and end the neocon Imperial project, ending this insane spending on Imperial delusions of grandeur that are destroying this country, that I would vote for McKinney. I told them I was stunned that Obama doesnt seem to be very aware of important ideas necessary to saving this country from utter ruin, articulated with great precision by Andrew Bacevich and Chalmers Johnson. Links:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html
http://mondediplo.com/2008/02/05military
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3067364950234559926
Now, try this. Watch the above presentations AND TRY TO IMAGINE OBAMA, AT THE DEBATE, HITTING MCCAIN WITH THESE FACTS OF THE SITUATION. I expected him to at least begin to do so, but he didnt. I couldnt believe it! I will either vote for McKinney of Nader.
This situation is insane. Obama threw that debate away, and/or he showed that he isnt willing to tell the financial aristocracy that they have destroyed this country and that we the people will not allow it to go on any longer.
Also, it is way past time to totally repudiate this insane procedure whereby anyone running for president is required to kiss the collective ass of the right-wing christian nutcases. I am sssooo sick of these dumbed-down nutjobs dragging this country down because of their stupidity and refusal to emerge from childhood and grow up that....ah forget it - dont even get me started!
"I emailed the Obama campaign and told them if that if Obama wasnt going to totally repudiate, denounce and end the neocon Imperial project, ending this insane spending on Imperial delusions of grandeur that are destroying this country, that I would vote for McKinney."
I'll bet that caused quite an uproar in the campaign. They probably had all kinds of meetings and discussions about losing your vote. Maybe they're still working on a statement.
lol
Sarcasm ill becomes you, madcow. This is a poster who excersized the right of free expression, who engaged in the political process and who doesnt deserve such a childish response to such actions.
If you are so cynical perhaps you might consider withdrawing from the process, and leaving the field to those who still care.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
By all means madcow, please leave the field open to those who care enough to get really snippy when you don't agree with them.
These are some very sobering observations for most Americans. For others, whether inside the borders or outside as observers; the over due recognition that the USA is a rogue nation borders on the absurd.
From the begining the USA has been little else but a rogue nation.
Setting aside the atrocities against the Native People for a moment and study the atrocities the Americans inflicted upon themselves from their own "Civil War", then couple that with the misery they have created for millions of their fellow human beings in almost every corner of the planet, whether land or sea.
One strong political group, strives to control the bodies of women outside of their belief systems and social circles with a "deep concern" for "innocent lives" but for all practical purposes they are silent concerning the "collateral damages" their beloved military forces create all over the planet.
The Americans are incapable of keeping their treaties, and careful to use the most absurd excuses for these short comings while they are very quick to make an illegal war of aggression against anyone they deem as having indulged in the same activities.
The American was considered the strongest for most of the 20th century, but hardly out of the first decade they have caused the world to "rethink" that assumption, while the "Euro" is worth more each day than the US dollar, and now the world will view the circus for free, while the Americans wallow in the mud with the pigs they put in charge of the "purse" with little or no oversight: but "watch out for the maid at the hotel, you know they are known to steal you blind the first chance they get".
The only true form of "democracy" the USA ever knew; the labor Unions, was effectively defused when a "Cowboy/Movie Star/Politician" (most likely already suffering from the early stages of the disorder that eventually "took him from us", the one that takes the mind away first, "Alzheimer's") took the main stage, and the puppets that put him there tugged the strings. Then the mind set of the working class turned against their only form of representation. They the American workers were soon replaced with illegal workers who could be manipulated easier than the American workers, and if they got too far out of line there was always the INS. But then, the Americans needed to meddle in the affairs of those countries that would supply those "guest workers" so that they would have a "pressing motive" to leave their homes and most often families behind, and "go to America".
And it goes on and on and now, an international criminal is about to leave the White House and retire to the "ranch" ----or somewhere "off shore" perhaps, just in case, ya know?
The American people may have "painted themselves into a corner". They have little or nothing to complain of to the world, about others. They have "done it all", and no one has come to get them---yet.
NOW---the economy is in a shambles, they are fighting another illegal war of aggression which they have already lost. They owe trillions for these and other foolish mistakes to a very ---at least Historically aggressive---ancient nation, the Chinese for their own stupidity. It would not be impossible to imagine the Soviets ---tired of American duplicity, and the Chinese, and a few others, coming together to make the US Economy into one that reflects a third world image, and they would not need to attack. Just wait for the Americans to turn on each other, and then they could just wait for the smoke to blow away, and the dust settle----and they just move in---take over a dysfunctional, former -----rogue nation.
Then again the good people of America could take over. Even though they are out numbered grossly, the "others are not that smart". They could change the course the USA has taken. Pay reparations and restitution to the "world", or at least every where they have been and left destruction. They could take precautions that such fools will never gain control of so much power again. They could take care of their own business and leave the world alone---lead by example for a change, it certainly would be the first time in their history.
A very good start would be to hand over the entire Bush administration, and most of the High Command over for trials for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
But don't anyone hold your breath.
Just one more in a long line of staged shams... eat it up America. It may be all we have left to eat soon enough.
I'm upset by the pro-Nader stuff I see here. I love the guy, who was practically
started by someone I grew up with, then editor of the Princeton Nassau, next editor (along with Andrew Kopkind) of The New Republic, then Washington guy for The Village Voice and now writing for Mother Jones, James Ridgeway.
Jimmy is one of the great muckrakers ever, like Ralph Nader himself, and like someone else I worked with, P. Davitt McAteer. McAteer collaborated on a book about mining with Nader and was main source for an article I wrote on Black Lung for Virginia Country Magazine.
We don't have many true reformers these days. These guys are the heroes as far as I'm concerned. However, voting for Ralph Nader in November 2008 makes no sense (of the common variety) whatsoever.
I'm hoping that my friend Ellen Wilbur will sign up here and hold forth for herself since she is a powerful writer. She's the one who has been most critical of Obama in the comments attached to this article so far. She explicitly linked Obama's comment about "taking out" Bin Laden to the warmongering of the last eight years. But did you notice whom she said she was going to vote for?
Excuse me, please, but I think anyone who votes for anyone but Obama is a complete loon. I live in the South now and really miss loons, but a person who won't vote for Obama now is detached from reality. Politics is about immediately
achievable gains. There are only two viable choices at the moment. Go ahead, work for change. I'll try and support you. But not if you destroy the world first, which sounds dramatic, a scare tactic, but really isn't.
As Gore Vidal has pointed out so well, we are the United States of Amnesia; i.e., we've lost our historical sense. People should be thinking about how World War I started right now-- no kidding. And that's before Health Care, the economy, education and all the rest of it, not least of which is the wonderful idea of electing a black man as our president.
Don't be too intellectual about this, pointing out that his blood is mixed, etc., he edited Harvard Law Review, etc. Use the standard of sordid American history.
If your blood was one twentieth Negro you were a slave.
Excuse me, please, but I think anyone who votes for anyone but Obama is a complete loon.
______________________________
You're excused.
This is a left wing purist pro-Nader website. I'm one of the few pro-Obama people on here.
If you wanted to see loons you picked the right website!!!
kman2
The major problem with your complaint is that the overwhelming majority of liberal blogs support Barack Obama. You make it appear that you have no place to find those who support your views while ignoring the fact that there are a plethora of web sites that you can go to that will back your candidate [while also condemning those who dare to criticize the great and powerful Obama] while there are very few genuine leftist sites on the Internet where one can read views that are expressed like the ones that one can read on Common Dreams and where commenters do not have to worry about expressing their support for someone like Ralph Nader.
Actualy, this has always been a progressive website. Most of the 3rd party loons aren't native.
They have a number of mating calls including:
"Obama/McCain the same"
"Lesser-evilism"
"Obama is a war-monger"
"Obama is in the pocket of X because they donated X amount to his campaign"
"You shouldn't vote at all because voting supports a broken system"
"The Democrats and Republicans are both corporate parties"
"Vote 3rd party to fix things (or for your conscience)"
"Don't vote"
They repeat these calls over and over until a flock of them gather together, telling each other how good they sound, while fouling the area.
Anyway, Bottle welcome to the aviary.
too funny!
The USA under this Bush Administration has now Fully Vietnamized Iraq with:
* the construction and filling of "strategic hamlets", i.e. concentration camps, and perpetration of ethnic cleansing, this time with high concrete walls and strategic ghettos for the different religious traditions, which did not exist before
* the Iraq version of "Operation Phoenix". A couple of the old Operation Phoenix Special Forces Vietnam soldiers have confirmed this. They called themselves 'America's Assassins' -and killed and killed without mercy or pity; men, women, children, innocent or not, destroying whole villages in their path... killing villagers living in their very own country, as is now being done to Iraquis living in their very own country. America's Assassins are now at work again, in Iraq and elsewhere
* the corruption and hobbling of the Iraqui government with decrees and demands and bribes of money and puppet leaders that must be agreed to by the US... or else
* the breaking of the US Armed Forces with unremitting warfare, wearing out people and equipment and resources
* the buying-off of regional leaders and groups with cash for not fighting Americans, cash which must continue to flow
* the military incursions into neighboring nations, this time Iran and Pakistan and Syria and Lebanon and Afghanistan, similar to incursions into Cambodia and Laos back then
* the massive yet secret aerial bombing campaign on Iraq, like that of the Nixonian era on Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos
* the virtual 'mining' of Iraq's harbors by Navy blockade
* the killing of hudreds of thousands if not millions of innocent nationals in-country, in the attempt to 'free' them
* the 'justification' of all this mayhem through a claimed 'existential threat' to the USA, that in the end turned out to be completely BOGUS and fraudulent
* the spending down of the US treasury in the course of the war, transferring the assets and treasures of the American people to giant private corporations during this process; corporations like Cheney's Halliburton, now headquartered in Dubai to evade American laws, oversight and taxes
* the deployment of the most sophisticated weapons of the day against rudimentary weapons of an indiginous population
* the claiming that the 'enemy' are 'attackers' or 'insurgents' -when these see themselves as 'freedom fighters' fighting against an occupation
* the 'economic warfare' used against Iraq and Iran, like that used against Vietnam... which is an act of war against Iran
* the 'Iraquification' of the war, a very distinct, exact parallel with the 'Vietnamization' of the war then
* the... ad infinitum...you get the picture...
McCain has his Vietnam all over again. Like he has his S&L meltdown all over again. There IS no 'winning' in Iraq, as there was not in Vietnam. But he can't let the Vietnam War go. He crazily thinks we could have 'won' in Vietnam. Won what? How? Bomb, bomb, bomb? Kill them ALL? Is that victory? Was it necessary? Was it in the end a vital interest of the USA? Or was it, as McNamara now says, a great big error, a mistake of colossal degree, a war that should not have been fought, perhaps even a war crime? Just like Iraq, and for that matter, Afghanistan.
The McCain Iraq/Vietnam recipe guarantees continual occupation for a long time to come. The differences between Iraq and Vietnam, apart from terrain, are that there is no draft now to touch American lives directly, nor are there any major nations like China and Russia, who supplied the North Vietnamese, supplying Iraq.
McCain has his advisor and "friend for thirty years" Henry Kissinger by his side!!! Wow, Iraq IS Vietnam all over again, complete with arch-warcriminal Kissinger. 'Nam in the Desert. The Iraq War cannot be 'Won', and the Iraq War is an illegal and therefore unwinnable full-blown warcrime. This warcrime McCain fully embraces, as the total warmonger-militarist he is. Not satisfied with two or three ongoing Warfronts, McCain has already tried to start it up with Russia again (with its 55,000 nuclear weapons arsenal) over the little nation of Georgia. a state headed by a corrupt leader who heavily and for years paid a McCain advisor to lobby for him!
McNuts.
Out of Iraq! Now!