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Obama-as-Sojourner v. McCain-as-Mythic-Hero
The economy is sinking, an incumbent Republican president has abysmally low ratings, and the Democrats outpoll the GOP on virtually every issue. A Republican should have no chance at all to win the presidency. Yet the two-week political convention season has come and gone, and the polls still show John McCain well within striking distance of victory. How can it be?
To understand it, says McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis, you have to start with one basic fact: "This election is not about issues. This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."
As a historian of religions I'd put it a just bit differently: This election is not a choice between two competing policy positions. It's a choice between two clusters of symbols. Each candidate tries to create a believable mythic drama, with himself as the hero. So the election as a whole becomes a mythic contest between two sets of symbolic images. Elections have probably always been like that. But today the question is what each candidate symbolizes, and which symbolic message will win the most votes in 2008.
What does McCain symbolize? Since the selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate, the most popular answer among the pundits is "anti- elitism." "Ordinary people," they say, hate the Democrats for looking down on them. They "may be struggling economically, detest President Bush and oppose the Iraq war," as an LA Times post-convention analysis put it, "but still may vote based on a visceral sense of which candidate respects their way of life."
But these "ordinary people" who feel alienated from the "elitist" Obama are largely creatures of imagination. When pollsters ask "Which candidate has values most like yours?" or "Which candidate best understands and cares about your needs?", Obama consistently comes out ahead. The McCain campaign's strenuous effort to make the biracial son of a single mom from Kansas a symbol of "elitism" isn't working very well.
What is working is McCain's focus on "experience" and on the realm of war, the military, and national security. That's the one area where McCain consistently bests his opponent in the polls. It's only his claim to experience on these issues that are keeping him competitive.
That does not mean the voters prefer McCain's war policies. Since last February, when it became clear that the Arizona senator would be the GOP's nominee, the pattern has not changed: Even when a comfortable majority of those polled support Obama's policy - withdrawing troops on a fixed timetable - more say they trust McCain than Obama to "do the right thing" in Iraq. Why? In June, a Pew Center for the People and the Press poll found that nearly 40% of the public didn't know McCain's position on troop withdrawal. Perhaps many voters don't care to know his stand on that issue, or any other. They care about the symbolic meaning of his experience in the realm of war.
Of course everyone - even if they know nothing else of McCain's experience - knows what his experience in war was: years of captivity and torture. In case they might have forgotten, McCain offered a detailed retelling of his horrific experience as the emotional centerpiece of his acceptance speech. From that spellbinding tale he launched into a rousing conclusion, whipping the audience into a frenzy as he shouted: "Fight with me. Fight with me. ... Stand up and fight."
What McCain symbolizes, above all, is patriotic toughness. He is the mythic hero who always puts "country first" and will "never surrender" to the nation's enemies and their evildoing. To millions of Americans - a minority, to be sure, but perhaps enough to tip the election - that image outweighs every other consideration as they decide how to cast their vote for president. Why should it be so? It's a huge puzzle, too complicated to settle for any simple answers. Let's try to put together some of the pieces.
One valuable piece comes from a recent column by the New York Times' (neo?)conservative pundit David Brooks. The root of Obama's problem with the voters, he suggests, is that Obama "has been a sojourner." His life journey has taken him to many places and many political positions. But he has never settled down in one place. And "voters seem to be slow to trust a sojourner they cannot place."
Brooks goes on to contrast the two candidates by their differing autobiographies: "McCain's 'Faith of My Fathers' is a story of a prodigal son. It is about an immature boy who suffers and discovers his place in the long line of warriors that produced him." He becomes a man by returning home. Obama, on the other hand, seems to have no home: "'Dreams From My Father' is a journey forward, about a man who took the disparate parts of his past and constructed an identity of his own. If you grew up in the 1950s," Brooks adds, "you were inclined to regard your identity as something you were born with. If you grew up in the 1970s, you were more likely to regard your identity as something you created." Hence the age gap, with older voters inclining to the Republican while the youngest voters eagerly rush to the Democrat.
OK. McCain is experienced as a tough, patriotic, self-sacrificing warrior hero and as a man of the '50s, with a fixed identity, defined by a home that he knows and eventually embraces. Obama is seen as a man of the '70s on an endless journey, always seeking new ways to construct his ever-changing identity. But why should this symbolism of life as journey lead many voters to accept the Republicans' pejorative image of Obama as a self-seeking young dandy, too weak to stand up against the evil enemy, too selfish to sacrifice all for country?
The missing link comes from another consistent finding in the polls. The best indicator of how someone is likely to vote is church attendance: The more often non-Hispanic whites go to church, the more likely they are to vote for the Republican. And the percentages, which have held steady all summer, are almost exactly what they were in the 2004 election.
Of course going to church means different things to different people, as the eminent sociologist of religion Robert Wuthnow discovered when he set out to trace the history of recent American spirituality. In his book After Heaven he lays out the pattern he found, and it's strikingly similar to Brooks' take on this year's election.
The 1950s was an era dominated by "the spirituality of dwelling," Wuthnow contends. Churchgoers were likely to feel very much at home in their houses of worship. A church was an emotionally comforting dwelling place, Wuthnow wrote, because it offered "a sheltering canopy that protects people from chaos. ... The Soul was deemed to reside in a sacred space that required geographic fortification. ... Spiritual sanctuaries were fortresses whose walls needed to be protected."
By the 1970s, a new mode of spirituality had grown up alongside the old - a "spirituality of seeking" that offered endless new possibilities for spiritual growth, as long as the seeker never settled down in one church, which meant never feeling (or wanting to feel) at home in any one. The seedbed of the spirituality of seeking was, of course, the era we call "the sixties," the time when so many young people asked passionately: "How does it feel to be without a home, like a rolling stone?" Many commentators have noted that forty years later our presidential elections are still ways to refight the continuing culture battles that began in that tumultuous time. The Republicans keep it that way because they reap such huge political benefit from attacking cultural symbols of "the sixties."
Every new round brings new symbolic issues, however. In 2004, much media attention was focused on social issues like abortion and gay rights. In fact, though, more careful post-election studies found that the key to Bush's success was the voters' fear of terrorism. Yet for the many churchgoers who voted Republican because they were still seeking the spirituality of dwelling, the difference between the social issues and the national security issues may not have been very important. Those were merely two different ways to symbolize the ongoing battle waged by those inside the sanctuary walls to fend off those outside.
In 2008, many American still flock to their sanctuaries as fortresses protecting them against uncertainty, especially moral uncertainty. They want what Wuthnow calls "sharp symbolic boundaries" demarcating good and evil. And their fundamental goal remains the same: "erecting boundaries around the perimeters of one's life ... so that life inside could be kept under control." For the ultimate threat to spiritual "dwellers" comes from their own unruly human desires and the uncontrollability of life.
In the '50s, as today, the spirituality of dwelling was directly linked to the discourse of national identity. The entire nation was treated as a dwelling place, its protective walls coterminous with its geographical borders. If churches "were sacred fortresses," as Wuthnow says, "the nation in which they lived was even more in need of being inviolable.... Being a good American was a way of exhibiting faith, and both depended on keeping intruders out. Communism, of course, was the most feared intruder of all."
"The cold war symbolized [rather than caused] American's concern to have a safe nation in which to live," according to Wuthnow. Since the true threat came from within American life itself, it is hardly surprising that the communist threat was seen as much inside as outside the nation: "Americans feared that their fortress could be invaded at any time. They spent increasing amounts on national defense [and] built bomb shelters," while at the same time they "searched for subversives in their midst."
It could hardly have been otherwise. Whenever people shelter behind walls for protection, they reinforce the fears that sent them behind those walls in the first place. Their sense of their own virtue comes to depend on keeping up the fight against the evil enemy, which means that they must have an enemy to fight. Its name hardly matters, as long as it effectively symbolizes a threat of moral disorder. But since what they are fighting is ultimately the fear born of their own uncertainty, the enemy must always be within as well as without.
In the late '60s, the internal chaos of rapid social change - forever after known as "Liberalism" - joined communism as the prevailing symbol of evil in conservative circles. The Republican party presented itself as the guardian of a familiar, dependable, eternally true moral order on both the domestic and foreign fronts. Indeed, the cold war became primarily a way to symbolize and whip up fervor for the culture war. The enemy became an enormously complex, protean, malleable, and thus easily manipulated compound of many symbolic elements.
The prime threat was ultimately spiritual seeking itself, since it undermined the possibility of any permanent certainty in the realm of values. With the spirituality of dwelling the central bulwark against the uncertainty of change, every kind of spiritual seeking could look like a threat to the nation, as dangerous as the communists and their nuclear arsenal. Every seeker would be, by definition, an enemy to "the American way" and thus guilty of lacking patriotism. Since seeking was so often the product of education, higher education (especially at elite institutions) fit neatly into the pattern.
When "seeking" became the enemy, the connection of "dwelling" with fighting for national security became more complex. Seekers proudly boasted that they were on a journey of self-realization, looking for their own unique identity and ever new ways of self-actualization. Dwellers, always intent on restraining the evil inside themselves as well as outside their walls, feared that the growing focus on self would soon break down all restraints and trigger the social chaos their walls had been built to stave off. So they reaffirmed self- restraint as the axis of their value system.
Conversely, they condemned all the newly-linked evils - spiritual seeking, liberalism, communism, and elitism, along with sex, drugs, rock 'n roll and all the rest - as just so many manifestations of self- indulgence, a loosening of all internal restraints against selfish desire. With the inner bulwark against evil gone so slack, every external bulwark was weakened too, they feared, so that the whole nation stood in danger of being overrun by its enemies. The whole diabolical stew was ultimately a spiritual failure - a straying from, or perhaps even a rebellion against, the ways of God. In the conservative worldview it all made perfect sense. It still does. That's why a smart conservative like David Brooks can pounce on Obama's rootless life of sojourning as the root of his political (and presumably spiritual) problem. It's why the seeming rootlessness can be so threatening to many voters. It's why some voters who agree with Obama's view on the Iraq war still trust McCain more to do the right thing in that tragic conflict. It's why many more trust him most to be commander-in-chief and wage the war against terrorism, our modern-day substitute for the communists of the cold war era.
McCain gains all that trust because of his experience, not in government, but in prison, where he seems to have sacrificed the most basic human desire - the desire to escape physical pain - in order to serve his military comrades, his sense of honor, and his beloved country. For the "dwellers" who fear the breakdown of restraints all around them, he is a precious symbol of self-restraint and thus a symbol of hope that the threats which seem to impinge from every side can ultimately be held off forever. Even among "dwellers" who recognize the folly of the Republican war policy in Iraq, some will find that symbolism overriding their policy concerns and pushing them to vote for McCain.
It won't always be this way. History is on the side of the "seekers." Eventually they will dominate public life, including the political process. The "dwellers" sense that they are fighting a rear-guard action, which is why their counterattack is so ferocious. For now, though, the Obama campaign feels forced to play "me too," trying mightily to convince the "dwellers" that their candidate is just as deeply commited as any Republican to a permanent structure of American values.
But they are fighting an uphill battle. The spirituality of dwelling requires a threatening enemy to fight against. Democrats can hardly cast Republicans as agents of cultural change who would undermine the stability of "the American way." Too few voters would buy that. Nor can the Dems cast the many "seekers" under their big tent as a threat, lest they fracture their growing but still fragile coalition.
That leaves them with two options. They can continue to muddle through as they are doing, hoping that economic distress is indeed, as Obama suggests, deep and wide enough to outweigh all the cultural factors working against them. That's a big risk; it may not be true.
Or Obama could use his extraordinary skills as a communicator to explain the difference between pragmatic national security and the emotional security provided by symbols of "dwelling." He could warn the nation about the perils of conflating the two and provide a program for meeting the cultural needs of "dwellers" that does not venture onto the dangerous terrain of national security.
That's a big risk too - perhaps, in an election this close, too much of a risk to ask any candidate to take.
- Posted in



90 Comments so far
Show AllGet religion out of politics already ! This is nothing more than a blatant misuse of religion to cover up the selling out agenda !!
McSame should be 'arrested' for trying to steal "CHANGE" from Obama. (lol)
I could not help but think of a few of our 'libertarian' and Republican friends who post here whilst reading this. I wonder if the 'symbol worshipers' and 'dwellers' (in a troglodyte sense) can recognise themselves in this article.
Good work Ira.
This article is much too precious and self-regarding (Look at me! See how complicated I can be!). The criticism extends to one of its subjects as well-- the columnist David Brooks.
I figure that people who always vote for a Bush, a Palin, or a McCain are so abysmally neurotic that they belong in a mental institution rather than in the United States unless the U.S. itself has become the mental institution, which does seem a good possibility nowadays.
Am I deriding these people, however? Not at all. I have great sympathy for mental patients. Is this explanation still too complicated, though?
Okay, I'll simplify further. One candidate, McCain, is loud and abrasive and of course wrong on the big issues of the day. The other, Obama, is quiet and reasonable.
So you are saying that whoever shouts the loudest lie wins? This may well be so, but it still doesn't explain why people fall for it - this article is an attempt to explain.
If you are saying that the crazies fall for McCain, and you may be correct, you don't explain why people are crazy in the first place - this article is an attempt to explain.
The US is the insane asylum. If one travels to various advanced countries, including all the industrialized nations and the more successful developing nations such as China, and then returns to the US, the conclusion is unavoidable that Americans are by far the most deranged people in any advanced nation. But the real kicker is that the inmates in this insane asylum have control over thousands of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them to any point on the globe.
Oooops II
Ooops.
The average life of an American male is about 75 years, which means that it is plausible that John McCain is down to the last few years of his life spent almost entirely in military culture. He was part of yet another unnecesary, humiliating and losing U.S. war in which he was captured, imprisoned and tortured. He never made admiral like his father and grandfather. In other words, like George Wanker Bush, he is a Glory Seeker and will crawl through fire and excrement to get it (the reason behind his current marriage for money and his lying, degrading campaign to be Caesar). What bloody, suicidal and losing adventure will he and Aimee Semple McPherson get us into so he can ride his golden chariot in mock triumph down Pennsylvania Avenue?
"This election is not a choice between two competing policy positions."
Although a simplification, I mostly agree. They essentially represent the same set of values. Those values are dictated to them by Corporate America. Until we actually are allowed to choose a candidate who is not corporate owned, I resist.
Neither "The Party" choice allows a *real* choice. The lipstick's on both pigs. They feed at the same trough. Religious Fanatic (and her token/broken "war-hero") or Religious Fanatic-lite? They are both so far right, that they are both so wrong for America.
We have lost the right to choose.
Ira, your scholarship is superb, you build arguments with the elaborate inticacy of an European Cathedral and the thoroughness of a properly differentiated or integrated calculus function, but Ira, you are dealing with two chimera who are not even what they think they seem to be...the mill of your intelligence deserves better grist to gind.
Poet
Poet,
On this one, I have to disagree, to an extent.
Having been part of a single mom family, but born in 1947, of five siblings, I can attest to being a sojourner. We moved on average every 18 months for my mother's career. She managed to stay in one place for three years to make sure I graduated from high school in a more stable manner. Before my being drafted she moved again.
My education, my life mirrors Chernus' take on the 'myth and symbol.' He definitely understands Joseph Campbell one of the great explorers of human beliefs and 'knowledge.'
Bottle writes: "...unless the U.S. itself has become the mental institution, which does seem a good possibility nowadays."
Bottle might be right. When I visited the U.S., I was asked if I had any mental illnesses or a history of obsessive-compulsive disorders. I said, no. The guy in the white coat said, "Are you sure you've been admitted to the right place?" I said, "I don't know now." I was then told that this wasn't the place for me, and was refused entry.
Bottle further writes: "The other, Obama, is quiet and reasonable."
Obama said corporate "globalization is inevitable". That's exactly what Tony Blair said. You need to find out what a lying, two-faced b*$&@#d he turned out to be.
Ultimately, this election is about race .. at a 'visceral' level and absolutely no one will admit it.
I think the cards are being stacked like this:
Obama = draft
McCain = draft
just listen to Obama's recent comments extolling the virtues of public service for america's youth. Scary stuff.
A hard rain is about to fall.
And your problem with 'public service.' if it were not of a military nature?
And your problem with 'public service.' if it were not of a military nature?
Everything is of a military nature in this country. What other industry do we have? Please inform me...
Even the interstate highway system was constructed to move large numbers of troops around the country in the event of a nuke attack- they were not conceived for the public's direct benefit.
Personally- I work non profit and I put in sweat equity for change everyday. But I refuse to make weapons of war under any circumstances, which I'm afraid is the heart of the content hidden behind the 'public service' rhetoric.
Additionally, are you one of those repugs that is now going to start chearing the virtues of SOCIALIZED 'public service'? Hypocrits, the whole lot of them.
fake,
Don't misunderstand me. You would find we agree more than disagree. My only thought was that in an equitable society there would actually be a need for 'public service.' Your examples of infrastructure, etc. are a misunderstanding of political machinations.
My career as a teacher in a prison setting for 17 years, on top of being drafted, speaks to my character. And I was hated by the 'peace officers' because of their inability to cow me into the lies they perpetrate to increase their voice in government. That you are now experiencing via the shitbags running the country. And I ratted out one of for 'abuse of authority,' required of my teaching credential.
And I can prove it.
So spare me your chip that resides on your shoulder. And get rid of your fear.
Besides, I'm retired, disabled and impatient of poorly thought out accusations from children.
sorry... jumped to bad conclusions.
A very wordy article, filled with needless complications inherent in an Academic of course. All he really said was that McCain represents the old guard and Obama the new.
McCain served honorably and survived things I'm not sure I could have, Obama represents a different generation that weren't required to serve and thankfully didn't have a Viet Nam of their very own.
McCain is about even because many Americans are afraid Obama's a radical. Obama is about even with McCain because people are sick of the law breaking, a war that shouldn't have been fought and Corporations that are stealing everyone blind.
My opinion anyway.
"Songbird" McCain admitted he collaborated with the enemy. He got medical treatment for his cooperation. He was the VC's go-to traitor on Radio Hanoi, making numerous broadcasts; he once said he was ashamed of what he'd done, but he no longer exhibits any shame. If he were a Democrat the Republicans would have hung him by now. His honorable service is a lie, his campaign is nothing but lies, and his life is a lie.
All I can say, is think of being a prisoner of the NVA for all those years. Think of the physical abuse and torture. I simply cannot judge the man for being broken. He said they broke him.
I might have broken the first week, those guys were tough.
The men he was imprisoned with honor him and thats good enough for me. Your buddies won't defend a coward.
He "broke" before the first week so they'd set his broken leg. I would have the utmost sympathy for his suffering if he was not using stories about it to get himself elected. Once he puts that on the table to prove something to the voters, it is our responsibility to examine the truth of his statements. And the truth is he collaborated; if he were not a Republican they would have labeled him a traitor.
We'll just have to disagree, but no problem there. A traitor is someone like Jane Fonda and I can't compare McCain with her.
I just take all the guy's that were there with him at their word and they all say he was a good guy.
I do agree, we have heard ALL we need to about it. I know I've heard all I want to about it. That was then, I'm interested in now. I want to hear from each one of these guys what they really have in mind.
If the Obama campaign does threaten the plan for McCain to occupy the White House, there will be no election. But Barack Obama will almost certainly be denied the White House by racism without resort to martial law. Obama knows this and has frantically run away from every principle and position on the issues that even slightly disquiets the ruling class. But he cannot shed his race or culture.
This goes beyond Obama the Democrat and candidate for president and it certainly has nothing to do with whether Obama is a "sojourner" or not. Something the ruling class can never permit must happen before Obama can be elected. In the general election Obama will win 95-plus% of a record turnout of Black working people. And he could be elected president with a substantial number of white working class votes. This would constitute a level of working class unity like we have never witnessed in US electoral history.
Such unity would shake this county’s ever constricting capitalist bourgeois democracy to its foundation. One of the main engines of that capitalist economy is racism. For the sake of profits racial divisions and the super exploitation of workers of color must be kept intact—at all costs.
The reason that chattel slavery came into existence in the semi-feudal agrarian US economy of the time was that it was very profitable for the masters of that economy.
The reason that racism is so pervasive in the United States today with its developed industrial capitalist economy is that it is very profitable for the masters of that economy. Take the five members of the Walton family that occupy slots among the ten wealthiest Americans through the operation of their modern-day plantation, Wal-Mart.
It took the bloodiest war in US history and hundreds of thousands of white workers willing to fight to the death to end chattel slavery. No election and no candidate for office will end racism in this country. As long as capitalism exists elections will only produce racist results.
Barak Obama is not being neutralized right now for fear of his empty rhetoric about change. The ruling class chuckles over such nonsense. What they are stricken over is the possibility that working-class whites might make their first halting steps toward an effective political relationship with their brothers and sisters of color. They know their history. They know that was the dynamic that brought down the slave economy. They know that would be the beginning of the end for them.
The reason that racism is so pervasive in the United States today
Simply a false statement.
"It took the bloodiest war in US history and hundreds of thousands of white workers willing to fight to the death to end chattel slavery.'
You should give credit to the hundreds of thousands of Black soldiers that fought and died in that war.
"modern-day plantation, Wal-Mart."
This is just a silly comparison and an insult to thiose that suffered under real slavery.
TM,
With regard to the prevalence of racism, you are in denial. Blacks and whites in the USA are treated in very different ways in the job interview, on the job, in the housing market, in stores, in schools, when driving a car - or just walking down the sidewalk. Racism is institutionalized - woven in the fabric of society.
Even a recent investigative piece on ABC (US) news by the hardly left-wing John Stossel revealed the prevalence of racism in job interviews, even in the way resumes were treated when only of the applicants has a "black-sounding" name.
This article points some of the racism regarding the upcoming election: http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/3618.
I recommend a lot of other stuff by Tim Wise as well.
I simply disagree. I don't see that it's endemic anywhere. I'm going to take the medias word on this? And John Stossel? Hardly.
It is absolutely required for segments that need an oppressed class to survive. The racism industry.
Believe me, I live in the real world and don't think all of those things domn't happen wevery day, to all colors. There may be as much of it happening to Whites as anyone. Especially in school. Its just not the problem it was, by any measure.
More,
Once again you prove your pathetic stupidity.
Do us all a favor, either produce more cogent argument or go flush yourself down any toilet.
The only one here thats pathetic would be someone that gets personal because they have nothing to say. Personal attacks seems to be about all you can indulge in.
Or, option No. 3 would be for Obama to convice USAns to adopt the view that their personal security, in or out of a church, is wrapped up in their economic interests - specifically the economic intersets of the vast wage-earning class majority.
Then he needs to vigorously promote policies that help the wage earners.
This is how it works in the rest of the democratic world - candidates offer real concrete policies.
For example, today, Canada's Conservative PM Harper, in orger to get his parties polling numbers up ahead of Canada's election, proposed an expansion of paid maternity and family leave benefits to include self-employed women. Such a proposal would be considered way to far to the left to ever appear on the US Democrat platform - but in Canada, even a "conservative" can propose such things.
Prof. Chernus's analysis is nonsense. USAns base their voting decisions on such nonsense because neither the media nor the candidates themselves give them any concrete policy issues for them to base their votes on. Sitting there in the cneter of the continent, his analysis is terribly US-centric as well.
There is also a myth circling around that there are only two parties that should be considered as voting choices, but that is simply not true.
The dominant culture will not change until we can change what we do because we need to; as opposed to staying with the status quo out of fear.
There are many third choices, including Nader and McKinney.
More:
There was one all black regiment of a 1000 men.
Led By a white man.
500,000 fled during the war. Most were behind the lines support. By law. They were considered 'contraband.' Only small numbers in field units, used as messengers and support.
They are credited with aiding in their own release. But "hundreds of thousands fought and died?" They weren't allowed to, legally, except for that one regiment.
By WWII, that hadn't changed much. When it did there was so much rampant racism the 'War College' worried about insurrection.
As for your previous nin-com-poop comment as to the 'wordy' nature of this article you fail to grasp it's meaning. You seem to think that to boil a pot of water down to nothing the pot still holds the water. No, all you have is a burnt pot. And your reductionism of thinking is precisely the problem.
Sorry Dog Leg. Fortunately I do think.
Heres a bit of real history for you.
"By the end of the Civil War, roughly 179,000 black men (10% of the Union Army) served as soldiers in the U.S. Army and another 19,000 served in the Navy. Nearly 40,000 black soldiers died over the course of the war—30,000 of infection or disease. Black soldiers served in artillery and infantry and performed all noncombat support functions that sustain an army, as well. Black carpenters, chaplains, cooks, guards, laborers, nurses, scouts, spies, steamboat pilots, surgeons, and teamsters also contributed to the war cause. There were nearly 80 black commissioned officers."
Those officers and their decendents are going to be disappointed that they were white and didn't know it.
A bit more for the uneducated....
"Black women, who could not formally join the Army, nonetheless served as nurses, spies, and scouts, the most famous being Harriet Tubman who scouted for the 2d South Carolina Volunteers."
Because of prejudice against them, black units were not used in combat as extensively as they might have been. Nevertheless, the soldiers served with distinction in a number of battles. Black infantrymen fought gallantly at Milliken's Bend, LA; Port Hudson, LA; Petersburg, VA; and Nashville, TN. The July 1863 assault on Fort Wagner, SC, in which the 54th Regiment of Massachusetts Volunteers lost two-thirds of their officers and half of their troops, was memorably dramatized in the film Glory. By war's end, 16 black soldiers had been awarded the Medal of Honor for their valor.
So I'd say my friend perhaps the "nin-com-poop" comment should have been kept to your self. If you aren't sure about something, its truly better not to insult someone else.
Black regiments fought with distinction in WW1 but you won't find much in the history books about it. Their officers are going to be sorry to find out they were really white though. I'd suggest you look up the awards they won.
Though your whole statement was false there was one part that you pegged where I was remiss. "But "hundreds of thousands fought and died" That could very well be construed the way you say, my fault for not being clearer. I just chastized USAn for that very thing not long ago...my bad.
My military history is usually right, but keep after me, obviously I sometines screw up.
Excuse me?
I believe that my estimations are correct. My only fault was not being more specific. As for my education, I have no reason to be embarrassed. But by your own words, you illustrate my point.
And by the way, I took issue with your statement only for the readily apparent over inflation or 'conflation.' This continues my representation of your 'poopedness.'
Otherwise continue your trolling.
:)
Mine weren't estimates, those are statistical facts. There were a few more battles than "Glory" one you were obviously thinking of.
Its evident you can't admit when you are wrong and I guess that explains the personal attack above. You are old enough to know better.
Excuse me?
I believe that my estimations are correct. My only fault was not being more specific. As for my education, I have no reason to be embarrassed. But by your own words, you illustrate my point.
And by the way, I took issue with your statement only for the readily apparent over inflation or 'conflation.' This continues my representation of your 'poopedness.'
Otherwise continue your trolling.
:)
IRA,
"Even when a comfortable majority of those polled support Obama's policy - withdrawing troops on a fixed timetable"
It's not a "fixed" timetable, it's a flexible one.
It's not withdrawal, it's redeployment. It allows funding for three exceptions: "targeted operations" against al-Qaeda and other terrorists; security of U.S. facilities and personnel; training and equipping of Iraqi security forces.
Obama's plan also retains 60-80,000 troops in Iraq, according to Obama adviser Colin Kahl.
And it's also the same plan that Bush and McCain support.
http://wizbangpolitics.com/2008/04/04/obama-adviser-calls-for-troops-in-iraq-thru-2010.php
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/07/obama_might_refine_iraq_timeli.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/08/22/iraq.main/?iref=mpstoryview
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/25/mccain-timeline/
Thomas Moore wrote,
"McCain served honorably"
When? Bombing a light bulb factory? Volunteering to bomb Hanoi? Was Vietnam a honorable war?
He showed up. That was a lot more than some did, including our fearless leaders. Bush and the boy's took deferments.
I wouldn't call Viet Nam or any war for that matter, "honorable", but there were men and women from both sides that fought honorably there.
The only people that dishonor themselves by calling McCain a coward, or criminal, etc are those with no dog in the hunt. The hero's back at the dorm. The REMF's.
Those that can't seperate a war from those that are in it continue to make the same mistake over and over. And they are usually the ones that consider Tom Hayden andf Jane Fonda hero's for their service in Viet Nam.
More,
No more Mr. Nice Guy, huh, 'More of the same old shit.'
While I have my issues with my involvement in S.E Asia and the 'Chickin Hawkshit' of my generation, you seem incapable of discerning thought. I have greater respect for the' Tom Haydens and 'Jane Fondas' exponentially more than any 'Chickin Hawkshit' with the moral fortitude of a worm, including an incompetent pilot and liar about his POW suffering.
I guess it is easy to forget people like Max Cleland, and hundreds of thousands more, whose voice is equal, dollar for dollar, for your holy corporate shitbags. You know, the ones that 'own' you.
No more nice guy?
Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda came to Viet Nam and encouraged the NVA to kill me and my friends. I didn't take kindly to it so I'm sure even you can understand why I don't admire traitors to my country.
I can't believe from the way you talk that you were ever in combat in Viet Nam. I frankly cannot believe you were there at all.
I would never, ever forget Max Cleland and all the rest of my brothers that came home without pieces or broken minds. Nor the many that did not get back.
The only shitbags here are those that spit on the people that served and hail cowards like Ayers, Hayden and Fonda as "Hero's"
No body owns me, but its quite obvious what your problem is.
10 to 12 million unregistered Black voters in the South can change the elections. Who will register them is a million dollar question.
Republicans use this. Look at McCain's ads claiming that Obama wants to raise everybody's taxes. In fact, Obama will lower "middle class" taxes more than McCain will.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_new_stitch_in_a_bad_pattern.html
The contrast set in the article also applies to the movement for alternative energy, decline of US globalization influence - though globalization continues. The fear is to some degree shaped by the long standing assertion that life can only be described for living by an elite. The elite model has been acquisitive in an inversion of Plato's "Unum est Totem" the One is the All - an allusion to religious (mythological) perspective. We are all the One - it is simply becomming impossible to function according to a model that denies that it's vision is a myth. As the economy tanks toward January the journey model needed to be undertaken by all of humanity might gain some room.
As people increasingly realize that the rule of law does not include rights of the earth, which functions beyond the restrictions of the western rule of law and that its mode of function undergirds the law itself, we're looking at our dwelling place in a different light.
Life IS a journey the goal is to be able to travel together. The earth is calling ever louder with a 'yooohooo' as we ignore the laws of nature - which also include creatural dignity (integrity of interconnected reality) - thinking in terms of engaging actions can be dignified in full scope (say seven generations hence) - rather than 'pride' of accomplishment - something short lived and not necessarily 'dignified' in terms of being reasonably connected to the whole long haul. Time to shake hands with our neighbors - especially those we haven't yet met.
Thomas More,
"Those that can't seperate a war from those that are in it continue to make the same mistake over and over"
Shouldn't it matter what you are fighting for?
Doesn't it matter why we killed millions of Vietnamese?
Whether the cause was just?
Is being a soldier an excuse to "just follow orders"?
Was it "honorable" to fight for slavery in the Civil war?
Was being a Nazi "honorable"?
If the war is illegal or immoral isn't it the imperative of an "honorable" soldier NOT to fight?
Let me be clear, in any army there can exist some decent, good, and "honorable" people. But when they assist or fight in an unjust war, their service is never "honorable".
Shouldn't it matter what you are fighting for?
Absolutely. But it was not the soldiers and Marines fault we were in Viet Nam....believe me, we'd all rather have been somewhere else.
"Doesn't it matter why we killed millions of Vietnamese?"
We didn't.
"Was it "honorable" to fight for slavery in the Civil war?"
I don't think there were that many fighting for slavery during the Civil war.
Was being a Nazi "honorable"?
No, but most German soldiers weren't Nazi's.
"If the war is illegal or immoral isn't it the imperative of an "honorable" soldier NOT to fight?
Let me be clear, in any army there can exist some decent, good, and "honorable" people. But when they assist or fight in an unjust war, their service is never "honorable"."
As a soldier that is not a judgement you are allowed to make, so the answer is no. Thats what you can't seem to comprehend I guess. Except for legal orders, its not your call. Nor can it be or you would not have a fighting force.
And as to illegal or immoral, who makes that decision? You?
Its a confusion between war and the people that are involved in it. Thats the mistake you are making.
"Doesn't it matter why we killed millions of Vietnamese?"
We didn't.
Citation please.
There were approximately two million casaulties (Vietnamese) from the war. We killed about 1 million soldiers at best estimate. Another just about 400,000 to 450,000 were killed by the NVA and CV. The rest were bombing casualties, combat casualties, etc.
These are the best estimates we have from the Viet Namese and our records. An NVA officer that I had lubnch with believes that they lost more than the million soldiers, possibly 200,000 more, but thats all their records accounted for. He believed that many that were drafted were never counted.