The United States hardly ever starts wars based on eliminating a real threat to them but rather for the purpose of terrorizing the world and the pure joy of killing and in this particular case they will follow orders from the boss in Israel.
Posted by port_lookout
Jun 4 2011 - 12:51pm
I don't believe Israel is the boss, Thalidomide. That is crap and nonsense fed to us by the press to make us believe the US is the good guy being bullied by a weaker, upstart, bad guy ally.
It is never the case that the hit man gives orders to the godfather.
Posted by braithwa842
Jun 6 2011 - 4:53am
I assume that you haven't missed the show with Obama groveling and Nyetenyahoo receiving endless adoration for his crimes from everyone in congress with the exception of Rand Paul. Every one of them is afraid not to. It certainly LOOKS as is if Israel pulls the strings here. I have never seen such a phenomenon such this support for stomping on the downtrodden.
As to the issue at hand (Iran), the Israelis have been pushing hard for war, and they have damn near extracted a commitment to war (refusing to negotiate with Iran) from Hillary - at a previous AIPAC conference. We appear to be behaving as Israel's dog. I personally do not think we would be threatening Iran, if it were not for Israel.
It may be, as you say, never the case that the hit man (the USA) gives orders to the godfather (Israel).
Posted by Paranoid Pessimist
Jun 3 2011 - 6:51pm
It's not for fun. The reasons are economic and stem from the Powers That Be, the Secret Government, and their understanding that nuclear war is impossible but that wars have to be kept going or the notion of nation-state will dissolve.
I got this from L. Fletcher Prouty, whose book JFK is, to me, the best back story behind the Kennedy assassination, better even than James Douglas's JFK and the Unspeakable. Prouty was a longtime military and CIA insider (he's the Mr. X in Oliver Stone's movie, made from his book), and his explanation of the motives and actions behind the start of the Vietnam war also made clear to me why we're in Iraq and Afghanistan and why the Secret Government knows we need an ongoing war in order for the profits to keep coming in. The book explains that with enormous clarity.
Much of his book is online here:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/
I can't buy into all of his assumptions, but what he write about from actual first hand experience and factual knowledge is unassailable. After more than four decades, I finally feel I have the answer to Norman Mailer's question Why Are We In Vietnam.
A tease: the US Secret Government armed Ho Chi Minh; he was "one of us" the same way Osama bin Laden was "one of us" until, like so many, he was turned into an enemy.
Posted by Ephraim
Jun 4 2011 - 12:58pm
I gathered all that from reading Neal Sheehan's book, "A Bright Shining Lie" 25 years ago. Of course, the lies have only picked up steam since then. Obama is doubling down on the lies of the Bush era.
Posted by samosamo
Jun 3 2011 - 6:55pm
The whole idea or agenda, neoconservative and all, is to keep the world so embroiled in so much turmoil and crises coming and going that it is hard for anyone to maintain any stability for a peaceful society. That way, those benefiting, those creating the criminal acts, those trying to separate out the 'elite and upper crust' from the commoners create the charade of who is responsible and who are the real antagonists. The real instigators are in a hideaway for those 'elite' who call the shots and stay hidden in their well fortified compounds far from harms way.
When such a condition exists, those entities most organized really stand to gain a lot as long as they don't flounder and become overcome themselves. Much like entropy in a certain way. And those entities are by name corporations and they are for the most part headed and guided by who I consider neoconservatives. And no matter what allegiance they claim and for the most part their criminal behavior and no heed of laws of national or international stripe are not any concern of theirs.
I seem or detect that Seymour Hersh is in the process of writing an expose of sorts on what the u.s. military is really doing and that could be just as depressing as reading Naomi Klein's 'Shock Doctrine'.
Posted by Paranoid Pessimist
Jun 3 2011 - 7:23pm
It's actually worse than than. It has depopulation as one of its covert stated aims. They think they'll be safe "hidden in their well fortified compounds far from harms way," but that's where they're wrong. They aren't as smart as they think they are.
Unfortunately, the fact that we'll ultimately take them with us is no comfort and will help us not at all.
Posted by chet380
Jun 3 2011 - 8:31pm
Why isn't Hersh featured on any of the news or Sunday morning shows?
Or Chomsky and Finkelstein for that matter.
Posted by Paranoid Pessimist
Jun 4 2011 - 1:31am
Or Michael Parenti or Amy Goodman.
Posted by ezeflyer
Jun 3 2011 - 9:20pm
Americons can't compete with foreign labor wages, lax environmental regs, dictatorships, etc. Their corporations only compete in the war industry. This is reality, the rest is bullshit.
Posted by Paranoid Pessimist
Jun 4 2011 - 1:34am
I suspect that there's more collusion between U.S. corporations and the foreign corporations they purport to be competing with, even the other supposed munitions pushing countries.
Posted by abvodvarka@yahoo.com
Jun 4 2011 - 12:04am
Seymour Hersh is a national treasure.
Posted by pirugenia
Jun 4 2011 - 12:11am
Hersch is being careful not to mention Israel (except in passing, "when I was last there in April, errr June"), instead choosing to name half a dozen Muslim nations and then proceeding to analize their internal problems, and their multiple external liaisons; he goes on to repeat that Obama is isolated, that his (Hersch's) contacts tell him Obama is beyond reach, and that nobody can get to him, not even the top intelligence guys. What is cooking?
Posted by B3nign
Jun 4 2011 - 3:00am
If Israel was a great oil resource of the world, then the US would be getting ready to attack Israel instead. Of course Israel is nuclear armed, with long range missiles to fire them, and fully equipped for a short intense war, courtesy of US taxpayer supplied deals.
An attack on Iran is an attempt to capture another major oil resource, and reduce oil supplies available to Russia and China military, whatever other excuse is offered. This action will stupidly provoke a wider confrontation. Never mind that. The strategy is for better access to oil, for some corporations, for which the US government is a paid mercenary. To corner the market, get a monopoly price. To send oil prices sky high because of oil uncertainty. Whatever the outcome, an oil company will win.
It might even break down the global economy, and the oil crisis could be an extra incentive to increase investment in renewables. War always is a source of innovation, both in ways to kill, and in ways to live with less. Many people are going to die sooner anyway. What have they got to lose? There is such a large stockpile of weapons to use up.
Posted by gardenernorcal
Jun 4 2011 - 12:40pm
Israel factors into this but not in the way you have outlined. Israel want's Iran taken out for political and religious reasons. The West if they go along with it will be on the receiving line when it comes to divying up the resources. And that does make it attractive to the oligarchy. The oil companies will win, and that's probably why we will follow Israel's war mongering.
War on Iran for Israel is not about oil it's about the subjugation of Arabs and control of the area..
Posted by gardenernorcal
Jun 4 2011 - 12:50pm
Why are we aiding Saudia Arabia in developing nuclear power, while decrying Iran's efforts to do the same? Weren't Saudis the majority of the hijackers on 09/11? They weren't Iranian, Afghan, Iraqi or Libyan.
I have confidence that Iran will play this by the book to avoid conflict. And we in the west should be happy that they are restrained. We can't afford another war. Iran does have a right to develop nuclear power for its energy needs. Israel and the US have the burden of proof to prove they are doing otherwise.
Posted by braithwa842
Jun 6 2011 - 2:52am
"I have confidence that Iran will play this by the book to avoid conflict."
Co-operating fully with the WMD inspectors did not help Iraq one bit.
"Israel and the US have the burden of proof to prove they are doing otherwise."
That did not stop them last time. The "proof" they came up with was 100% bogus.
Had the USA gotten away with importing chemical weapons through the Kuwaiti borders, it would now be a "given" that Saddam was stockpiling WMD. Can you recall the lies from the past. Lies will be told - again, and the media will broadcast them - again.:-
* "There are known knowns. There are known unknowns, and then there are unknown unknowns."
* "Absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence".
Posted by cadawa
Jun 4 2011 - 9:07pm
If we had a real president instead of an isolated puppet, Hersh would be part of his or her cabinet.
Posted by SJRyan
Jun 4 2011 - 10:37pm
The Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (GCC) is a Saudi authoritarian response to the "Arab Spring." Established order/hierarchy in the Middle East is being challenged by the peoples of the Middle East.
Hersh notes that Saudi is upset with the US and will not increase oil production. Hersh claims that the price of gasoline on election day 12' will determine Obama's fate. There is more to the story than meets the eye.
Saudi and the OPEC oil cartel have lost control of the pricing of a barrel of oil and almost half the profit. Up to 40% of the price of oil/gasoline is attributable to futures trading. Wall Street types of all nationalities have their fingers in the OPEC pie. Oil will only sell for so much without crashing the world economy. There is only so much 'on the table' for oil. All the oil dollars used to go to Saudi/OPEC. Now, Bush/financial types have muscled their way into the Saudi/OPEC monopolies profits. The oil producers have been victims of a hostile takeover by western 'suits'.
Saudi warned Bush and Obama that futures trading was driving gasoline prices high and not them. Bush and Obama did nothing and Saudi lost half the golden goose. Add civil unrest to the mix, a sixty billion-dollar arms sale to Saudi, an Iranian boogie man and we have a real situation that could come to a violent head.
Middle Easterners have long felt that their oil was being stolen by the west. Bin Laden wanted to see oil at $100 per barrel. Now we have $100 oil but the producing nations only see $60 of the $100. Should we be selling the latest armaments to people who resent us so deeply?
Posted by guernica
Jun 4 2011 - 11:28pm
why iraq redux? israel only a small part:
Politico - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Deputy Secretary Tom Nides (formerly chief administrative officer at Morgan Stanley) will host a group of corporate executives at State this morning as part of the Iraq Business Roundtable. Corporate executives from approximately 30 major U.S. companies - including financial firms Citigroup, JPMorganChase and Goldman Sachs - will join U.S. and Iraqi officials to discuss economic opportunities in the new Iraq.
Posted by braithwa842
Jun 6 2011 - 3:00am
I strongly suspect amymo has advance notice of some version of history that Sarah Palin is about to invent.
Posted by 2 B Smarter
Jun 6 2011 - 4:20am
Hersh is good to read, "harsh" to listen to. Too many jumbled sentences, difficult to stay with him. Better to read his article (available here for free in its entirety):
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Hersh-6-6-11.pdf
Posted by samosamo
Jun 6 2011 - 2:12pm
Much like Naomi Klein.
Posted by rob.rice
Jun 7 2011 - 10:10pm
EVERY professional writer I have seen interviewed has a problem speaking with there voice
may be they NEED the written word to help form there thoughts
every one of them talks in scattered sentences with incomplete thoughts most even shudder at times
26 Comments so far
Show AllThe United States hardly ever starts wars based on eliminating a real threat to them but rather for the purpose of terrorizing the world and the pure joy of killing and in this particular case they will follow orders from the boss in Israel.
I don't believe Israel is the boss, Thalidomide. That is crap and nonsense fed to us by the press to make us believe the US is the good guy being bullied by a weaker, upstart, bad guy ally.
It is never the case that the hit man gives orders to the godfather.
I assume that you haven't missed the show with Obama groveling and Nyetenyahoo receiving endless adoration for his crimes from everyone in congress with the exception of Rand Paul. Every one of them is afraid not to. It certainly LOOKS as is if Israel pulls the strings here. I have never seen such a phenomenon such this support for stomping on the downtrodden.
As to the issue at hand (Iran), the Israelis have been pushing hard for war, and they have damn near extracted a commitment to war (refusing to negotiate with Iran) from Hillary - at a previous AIPAC conference. We appear to be behaving as Israel's dog. I personally do not think we would be threatening Iran, if it were not for Israel.
It may be, as you say, never the case that the hit man (the USA) gives orders to the godfather (Israel).
It's not for fun. The reasons are economic and stem from the Powers That Be, the Secret Government, and their understanding that nuclear war is impossible but that wars have to be kept going or the notion of nation-state will dissolve.
I got this from L. Fletcher Prouty, whose book JFK is, to me, the best back story behind the Kennedy assassination, better even than James Douglas's JFK and the Unspeakable. Prouty was a longtime military and CIA insider (he's the Mr. X in Oliver Stone's movie, made from his book), and his explanation of the motives and actions behind the start of the Vietnam war also made clear to me why we're in Iraq and Afghanistan and why the Secret Government knows we need an ongoing war in order for the profits to keep coming in. The book explains that with enormous clarity.
Much of his book is online here:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/
I can't buy into all of his assumptions, but what he write about from actual first hand experience and factual knowledge is unassailable. After more than four decades, I finally feel I have the answer to Norman Mailer's question Why Are We In Vietnam.
A tease: the US Secret Government armed Ho Chi Minh; he was "one of us" the same way Osama bin Laden was "one of us" until, like so many, he was turned into an enemy.
I gathered all that from reading Neal Sheehan's book, "A Bright Shining Lie" 25 years ago. Of course, the lies have only picked up steam since then. Obama is doubling down on the lies of the Bush era.
The whole idea or agenda, neoconservative and all, is to keep the world so embroiled in so much turmoil and crises coming and going that it is hard for anyone to maintain any stability for a peaceful society. That way, those benefiting, those creating the criminal acts, those trying to separate out the 'elite and upper crust' from the commoners create the charade of who is responsible and who are the real antagonists. The real instigators are in a hideaway for those 'elite' who call the shots and stay hidden in their well fortified compounds far from harms way.
When such a condition exists, those entities most organized really stand to gain a lot as long as they don't flounder and become overcome themselves. Much like entropy in a certain way. And those entities are by name corporations and they are for the most part headed and guided by who I consider neoconservatives. And no matter what allegiance they claim and for the most part their criminal behavior and no heed of laws of national or international stripe are not any concern of theirs.
I seem or detect that Seymour Hersh is in the process of writing an expose of sorts on what the u.s. military is really doing and that could be just as depressing as reading Naomi Klein's 'Shock Doctrine'.
It's actually worse than than. It has depopulation as one of its covert stated aims. They think they'll be safe "hidden in their well fortified compounds far from harms way," but that's where they're wrong. They aren't as smart as they think they are.
Unfortunately, the fact that we'll ultimately take them with us is no comfort and will help us not at all.
Why isn't Hersh featured on any of the news or Sunday morning shows?
Or Chomsky and Finkelstein for that matter.
Or Michael Parenti or Amy Goodman.
Americons can't compete with foreign labor wages, lax environmental regs, dictatorships, etc. Their corporations only compete in the war industry. This is reality, the rest is bullshit.
I suspect that there's more collusion between U.S. corporations and the foreign corporations they purport to be competing with, even the other supposed munitions pushing countries.
Seymour Hersh is a national treasure.
Hersch is being careful not to mention Israel (except in passing, "when I was last there in April, errr June"), instead choosing to name half a dozen Muslim nations and then proceeding to analize their internal problems, and their multiple external liaisons; he goes on to repeat that Obama is isolated, that his (Hersch's) contacts tell him Obama is beyond reach, and that nobody can get to him, not even the top intelligence guys. What is cooking?
If Israel was a great oil resource of the world, then the US would be getting ready to attack Israel instead. Of course Israel is nuclear armed, with long range missiles to fire them, and fully equipped for a short intense war, courtesy of US taxpayer supplied deals.
An attack on Iran is an attempt to capture another major oil resource, and reduce oil supplies available to Russia and China military, whatever other excuse is offered. This action will stupidly provoke a wider confrontation. Never mind that. The strategy is for better access to oil, for some corporations, for which the US government is a paid mercenary. To corner the market, get a monopoly price. To send oil prices sky high because of oil uncertainty. Whatever the outcome, an oil company will win.
It might even break down the global economy, and the oil crisis could be an extra incentive to increase investment in renewables. War always is a source of innovation, both in ways to kill, and in ways to live with less. Many people are going to die sooner anyway. What have they got to lose? There is such a large stockpile of weapons to use up.
Israel factors into this but not in the way you have outlined. Israel want's Iran taken out for political and religious reasons. The West if they go along with it will be on the receiving line when it comes to divying up the resources. And that does make it attractive to the oligarchy. The oil companies will win, and that's probably why we will follow Israel's war mongering.
War on Iran for Israel is not about oil it's about the subjugation of Arabs and control of the area..
Why are we aiding Saudia Arabia in developing nuclear power, while decrying Iran's efforts to do the same? Weren't Saudis the majority of the hijackers on 09/11? They weren't Iranian, Afghan, Iraqi or Libyan.
I have confidence that Iran will play this by the book to avoid conflict. And we in the west should be happy that they are restrained. We can't afford another war. Iran does have a right to develop nuclear power for its energy needs. Israel and the US have the burden of proof to prove they are doing otherwise.
"I have confidence that Iran will play this by the book to avoid conflict."
Co-operating fully with the WMD inspectors did not help Iraq one bit.
"Israel and the US have the burden of proof to prove they are doing otherwise."
That did not stop them last time. The "proof" they came up with was 100% bogus.
Had the USA gotten away with importing chemical weapons through the Kuwaiti borders, it would now be a "given" that Saddam was stockpiling WMD. Can you recall the lies from the past. Lies will be told - again, and the media will broadcast them - again.:-
* "There are known knowns. There are known unknowns, and then there are unknown unknowns."
* "Absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence".
If we had a real president instead of an isolated puppet, Hersh would be part of his or her cabinet.
The Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (GCC) is a Saudi authoritarian response to the "Arab Spring." Established order/hierarchy in the Middle East is being challenged by the peoples of the Middle East.
Hersh notes that Saudi is upset with the US and will not increase oil production. Hersh claims that the price of gasoline on election day 12' will determine Obama's fate. There is more to the story than meets the eye.
Saudi and the OPEC oil cartel have lost control of the pricing of a barrel of oil and almost half the profit. Up to 40% of the price of oil/gasoline is attributable to futures trading. Wall Street types of all nationalities have their fingers in the OPEC pie. Oil will only sell for so much without crashing the world economy. There is only so much 'on the table' for oil. All the oil dollars used to go to Saudi/OPEC. Now, Bush/financial types have muscled their way into the Saudi/OPEC monopolies profits. The oil producers have been victims of a hostile takeover by western 'suits'.
Saudi warned Bush and Obama that futures trading was driving gasoline prices high and not them. Bush and Obama did nothing and Saudi lost half the golden goose. Add civil unrest to the mix, a sixty billion-dollar arms sale to Saudi, an Iranian boogie man and we have a real situation that could come to a violent head.
Middle Easterners have long felt that their oil was being stolen by the west. Bin Laden wanted to see oil at $100 per barrel. Now we have $100 oil but the producing nations only see $60 of the $100. Should we be selling the latest armaments to people who resent us so deeply?
why iraq redux? israel only a small part:
Politico - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Deputy Secretary Tom Nides (formerly chief administrative officer at Morgan Stanley) will host a group of corporate executives at State this morning as part of the Iraq Business Roundtable. Corporate executives from approximately 30 major U.S. companies - including financial firms Citigroup, JPMorganChase and Goldman Sachs - will join U.S. and Iraqi officials to discuss economic opportunities in the new Iraq.
I strongly suspect amymo has advance notice of some version of history that Sarah Palin is about to invent.
Hersh is good to read, "harsh" to listen to. Too many jumbled sentences, difficult to stay with him. Better to read his article (available here for free in its entirety):
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Hersh-6-6-11.pdf
Much like Naomi Klein.
EVERY professional writer I have seen interviewed has a problem speaking with there voice
may be they NEED the written word to help form there thoughts
every one of them talks in scattered sentences with incomplete thoughts most even shudder at times