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Fukushima Nuclear Plant at High Risk for Major Earthquake
Scientists issue call for safeguards to prevent another nuclear disaster
A new study shows that last year's catastrophic earthquake in Japan caused a seismic fault close to the Fukushima nuclear plant to reactivate, meaning another major earthquake could strike the area again, this time even closer to the Fukushima plant.
Map of Japan’s islands indicating the area of study (black box). The purple star marks the epicentre of the 11 March earthquake and the red star the Iwaki epicentre. Fukushima Daiichi is highlighted by a red square. Black triangles indicate active volcanoes. Numbers on the side of the image represent latitude and longitude. (Credit: Ping Tong, Dapeng Zhao and Dinghui Yang) The new information (pdf) is published in European Geosciences Union's journal Solid Earth.
The March 11, 2011 earthquake's epicenter was about 160 kilometers from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. The scientists in the study explain that new tremors are happening even closer to the site:
“There are a few active faults in the nuclear power plant area, and our results show the existence of similar structural anomalies under both the Iwaki and the Fukushima Daiichi areas. Given that a large earthquake occurred in Iwaki not long ago, we think it is possible for a similarly strong earthquake to happen in Fukushima,” says team-leader Dapeng Zhao, geophysics professor at Japan’s Tohoku University.
The 11 April 2011 magnitude 7 Iwaki earthquake was the strongest aftershock of the 11 March earthquake with an inland epicentre. It occurred 60 km southwest of the Fukushima nuclear power plant, or 200 km from the 11 March epicentre.
The research now published in EGU’s Solid Earth shows that the Iwaki earthquake was triggered by fluids moving upwards from the subducting Pacific plate to the crust. The Pacific plate is moving beneath northeast Japan, which increases the temperature and pressure of the minerals in it. This leads to the removal of water from minerals, generating fluids that are less dense than the surrounding rock. These fluids move up to the upper crust and may alter seismic faults.
“Ascending fluids can reduce the friction of part of an active fault and so trigger it to cause a large earthquake. This, together with the stress variations caused by the 11 March event, is what set off the Iwaki tremor,” says Ping Tong, lead author of the paper.
The number of earthquakes in Iwaki increased greatly after the March earthquake. The movements in the Earth’s crust induced by the event caused variations in the seismic pressure or stress of nearby faults. Around Iwaki, Japan’s seismic network recorded over 24,000 tremors from 11 March 2011 to 27 October 2011, up from under 1,300 detected quakes in the nine years before, the scientists report.
"We think it is possible for a similarly strong earthquake to happen in Fukushima"
The scientists in the study report that since an earthquake near the Fukushima plant is likely, more attention should be paid to safeguards to prevent another nuclear disaster.
* * *
Meanwhile at the stricken plant, agencies report that the temperature at the No.2 reactor continue to rise to dangerous levels, though TEPCO says a faulty thermometer gauge may be the reason:
The Tokyo Electric Power Company said the temperature in one of the damaged reactors at its Fukushima nuclear station rose above safety limits yesterday, even as it injected increased amounts of cooling water.
One of three thermometers indicated the temperature at the bottom of the No.2 reactor pressure vessel rose to 93.7 degrees, , exceeding the 80 limit, said Ai Tanaka, a spokeswoman for the utility known as Tepco.
There are no signs of isotopes that would suggest the reactor has gone critical and there has been no increase in radiation around the site, the company said in a statement. The other two thermometers at the bottom of the vessel showed temperatures of 32.8 and 33.1 earlier yesterday, spokesman Naohiro Omura said. The thermometers have a margin of error of as much as 20 degrees, so the temperature could have climbed as high as 113.7.
''We think the thermometer may be faulty,'' Mr Omura said. The other two gauges had indicated temperatures were falling.
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Show AllAnd there were eight 4.0-5.6 Earthquakes at Fukushima ( NEAR THE WEST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN) since Feb 8th. The ten reactors have been rocking and rolling and our worthless mainstream media won't even cover it. Here's the USGS list for Asia:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/region/Asia_eqs.php
Ye gods!!!!
I believe there are some MANmade systems capable...
not implying Japan is not already in a prone zone, but implying that may be a very convenient fact for a certain group of powered individuals...
intentionally exacerbating an existing condition to force the violent results assumed to be due to historically unpredictable natural processes is insidious, and effective...
I would not put it past my leaders...
Can you say FRACKING?!
Sadly, I recently learned that fracking is done in New Zealand!! Go figure - do you all remember the Christchurch earthquake? And now, to learn that a "supposedly" Green country (that also happens to be on a major fault line) allows Fracking?
New Zealand, you've lost A LOT of my formerly high regard.
Interesting New Zealand correlation. Ever see the movie "Chinatown" starring Jack Nicolas? It's sequel "The Two Jakes" chronicles the wild Earthquakes in Southern California in the 1930's when the Oil Industry discovered that they could drill sideways under sub divisions property to steal oil from others. The shallow attempts caused massive water pollution and localized small Earthquakes that destroyed the tract homes.
Not to worry about NZ fracking, though. According to the energy mouthpieces, what they do there is the Kindler, Gentler Fracking - they only blast with ocean water instead of chemicals. So there is no reason to fear contamination of the ground water.
Interestingly, the mouthpieces refuse to answer what happens to the chemicals that are released when the ground is blasted with water.
I had such high hopes for New Zealand. But it's too close to Australia, which is too close to corporate-controlled USA.
And don't even get me started on the TPPA (Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement). It should be enough for you to know that the Chinese and USA corporations are stongly in favour of it. Economic development and all that rubbish.
For the CDers who want to read and weep, google TPPA, and get your hankies ready. If it passes, say a final good-bye to any hope for global-scale change in environmental protection. The corporations really will have it all.
Wish there was something I could do to wake up Australia, NZ, and the Pacific Islands. Not even trying in the US - we sold it all sold down river a long damn time ago.
Underwater landslides and nukes are not hard to put together. If you control the corporate media, you can hide just about anything. Perfect place for a nuke crime 30,000 feet under water. Weather or not it was done, these are scary powers that no one should have.
The Anatomy of an Earthquakes, and Tsunami - Posted on | januari 16, 2012
http://www.nl-aid.org/domain/natural-disasters/the-anatomy-of-an-earthqu...
"To artificially trigger an earthquake, and tsunami locate, and drill down into a large underground crude oil, and/ or natural gas well, and pump a large volume of air into the well for one to five days. insert a spark plug into the drill pipe, with the electrode protruding out on the side of the drill pipe.Now, fill the drill pipe with an air, and gas mixture. Now, sent electricity to the spark plug. The flames will travel down into the gas well, and ignite the air, and gas mixture inside the natural gas well. The large volume of natural gas will explode, and expand, and push the crust apart, or upwards, which will be seen as an earth quake. If a large area is pushed upwards in a large volume of water a tsunami will be generated, just like the December-2004 Indian earth quake, and tsunami. If someone were to ignite the gas in the Indian Ocean crude oil, and natural gas well another earth quake, and tsunami would be generated."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Oil Extraction Stresses Earth, Contributing to Earthquakes and Tsunamis
At 80 to 100 million barrels a day being extracted from the earth, and some ex- traction procedures entailing the infusion of cold water, these factors cannot be ignored as far as influencing earth crust stresses.
http://pesn.com/2005/01/12/6900060_Oil_Earthquakes_and_Tsunamis/earlier_...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
...peace...
Because it is harder to break something in compression than in tension, a lot of energy is stored before the breakage (and an earthquake) occurs. So larger events occur at subduction zones than at, say, mid-ocean ridges, where the process involves tension rather than compression.
Subduction zones are the last place you want to build nuclear plants. We cannot predict when they will occur, or quite where. All we can say is that many of them will be large enough to be devastating.
Hear that, Seattle? You are on a subduction zone too.
Units one and three are so hot no one can get near them to do anything. The number one reactor has raised up a about foot or so off the concrete foundation, no one knows why... No one knows where the three molten cores of radioactive poison are located under the buildings, or if they can go critical or not.
They don't have a clue of what the temperature of the three cores are,, which are no longer in the reactor's containment vessels where the thermometers are located... They are actually measuring the temperature of the water they pour in to number 2, which is running down into the building basements' and probably out to sea. It is not being re-cycled. the water leaks out of the primary containment vessel as it is pumped in.
Steam is rising from all threee of the units so soomething might be hot enough to boil water and it isn't anything in the three reactor vessels... Hmmmm, something might be amiss?
Based upon all of that, I suppose one could say the plant is "under control"... After all; in mid December, Tepco declared the plant was in "cold shutdown".
"Apparently the big lie - that the problems at Fukushima started with the tsunami and not the earthquake - has won out. I recently read a 'New Yorker' article that had the same misinformation. Congratulations to the nuclear industry for making it look like unsafe inland plants with the same design will withstand earthquakes, so no expensive corrective action is needed.
"Fukushima in meltdown before tsunami hit"
http://rt.com/news/fukushima-doomed-reactor-plant/
"Mitsuhiko Tanaka, a former nuclear plant designer, describes what occurred on 11 March as a loss-of-coolant accident. "The data that Tepco has made public shows a huge loss of coolant within the first few hours of the earthquake. It can't be accounted for by the loss of electrical power. There was already so much damage to the cooling system that a meltdown was inevitable long before the tsunami came.""
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-explosive-truth-behind-...
"A radiation alarm went off at Tokyo Electric Power Co.’s Fukushima nuclear power plant before the tsunami hit on March 11, suggesting that contrary to earlier assumptions the reactors were damaged by the earthquake that spawned the wall of water"
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-19/fukushima-may-have-leaked-radia...
My heart goes out to the young women and the fetuses that were exposed and continue to be exposed. It goes out to the children who were allowed to play in the contaminated schoolyards as long as they wore a little cloth mask.
The Japanese people are going to suffer the same horror that Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, the people of Kosovo, and all the rest who have been exposed to DU. They are going to suffer the same horror that the Rongalap people suffered after the Castle Bravo explosion in 1954 and the same horror that many Marshall Islanders still suffer from exposure during and after our nuclear testing.
Fukushima, the Dragon that will not die;
I’ve watched it spit its venom into the sky,
And dump its excrement upon the ground
Where generations will expire without a sound.
Dig it up, bury it, filter the air.
The Dragon will spew more poison without care,
Until the ground, water, air, are filled with its foul scent.
And malformed babies abound, with bodies bent.
Always remember, while bucks, shekels, yen and yuan rule,
War, nukes and biogenetics will be just a tool,
For gathering the wealth of their choice;
As they keep billions of souls from having a voice.
Perhaps the People are beginning to awaken,
As they gather to Occupy and steps are taken,
To dismantle the Wealthy and their endless greed.
To plant, in their place, a fresh and viable seed.
Steve Osborn
24 Oct. 2011
I believe Gaia will be relieved to see the last of us, but I mourn for all the creatures that will go into the void with us.
Empathy, caring, singleminded efforts to reverse what may be irreversible is the only small hope we have left. Unfortunately, that will interfere with someone's bottom line.
I was also, again, making rhyme this morning regarding the Water Dragons of Fukushima...it's hard not to...
every time they breathe or spit
tiny cannons they emit
small enough to float or fly
the many miles of sea or sky
far too small to feel, smell or see
small enough to get inside of me
and fire away at my inside inside
where there's no fair fight, and no place to hide
the Water Dragons of Fukushima
they live forever, and never sleep, or dream-a
invisible foe weakens those that rightly fear it
the Water Dragon's steamy mouth kills anything goes near it
sometimes, I feel odd that I remain focused on this topic while those around me discuss other issues...
thank you for helping me remain aware to the fact that this is precisely what should be my concern, no matter my surroundings...
I'm not fucking crazy, the fucking world is...
But Fukushima Daiichi Unit-One reactor lost all cooling FROM THE 9.0 EARTHQUAKE and BEGAN TO MELT DOWN BEFORE THE TSUNAMI TIDAL WAVE EVEN SHOWED UP. The only transmission tower into the plant toppled and the operator was down to just batteries until the backup generators started up. According to numerous analysis including Fairewinds Associates a consulting firm who reviewed the accident, during that dark confusion in the control room, the operator then accidentally closed all backup cooling valves to the reactor and the temperature rapidly skyrocketed causing the core to melt releasing hydrogen gas. The tsunami didn't arrive until 40 minutes later.
This site documented the chronology:
http://www.nirs.org/fukushima/crisis.htmbold emphasis is mine
TJ
What a lot of people and the media have glossed over is that the great Great East Japan Earthquake (as it is more colloquially referred to) was not the big quake that the experts, pundits and planners were expecting.
Instead what they were fearing was a large quake closer to Tokyo where the fault lines converge and which is closer to land. Indeed, in some reports when the 2011 quake hit, they were surprised that it happened where it did although it always had some probability percentage to occur.
In a country with so much earthquake potential, as has easily been proved by past events, the fact that it has so many nuclear reactors which are prone to damage and subsequent widespread catastrophes unhindered by nuclear apologists is a telling testimony to the nuclear industry and how its influence and dealings have pervaded society.
Unfortunately Japan needs power and for that they had come to rely upon nuclear production. Also, a huge jump in importing of fuels (such as gas) to maintain (even at lower levels) of power production after the 2011 disaster and the shutdown of other nuke plants has really savaged their economic situation.
Incidentally, as I stated last year, Japan was in a bad economic state and was slated for a huge debt-ridden disaster before the year would end. But very strangely after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami hit there was no further problems in that respect. Indeed, it seemed as though Japan had found plenty of viable monies down the back of its couch and was doing okay.
At all times the 'nuclear industry' both in Japan and around the world continued to assure that everything at Fukushima was under control, there were no dangers, that things would soon be returned to a state of normality, all this despite the ongoing crises that continues to plague the place and the constantly revised evaluations and reports that are slowly trundled out.
Japan's nuclear reactors have very recently been given a heralded clean bill of health by a poncing American visitor and entourage that represented nuclear interests in the hope of allaying the fears of the Japanese people that it was a sign to restart those idle reactors and forget about Fukushima.
Unfortunately when the next serious quake hits then all eyes will be on those reactors, their safety systems, ancillary support systems and how the authorities conduct themselves. But like so many people in the world, the Japanese people dearly wish to trust their govt and authorities because to do otherwise would let in a host of nightmares that they think they can't handle at all.
There's a burgeoning technology and industry really trying to erupt in Japan into the world of smart houses, smart grids, and all of it interconnected so that if any one part of the system area fails (including due to natural disasters) then other parts energies can be diverted to remedy the situation. And not to mention that smart houses are being constructed with not only solar power self-power generation but also power storage, all of which pays a part, as well as electric cars with onboard power storage that can in an emergency situation supply the house with power for a couple of days just on its own. And all of that has the smart houses using far less electricity than normal homes on an everyday basis.
And who's into that technology? Toyota for one. A car manufacturer who's looking ahead with other companies into bringing this to not only Japan but exporting the technology and components to the world.
Now isn't that a breath of fresh air when compared to the lies and paid shills that permeate throughout the nuclear industry just as it does the oil industry? :-)
If you think that because of the engineered news cycles that the 2011 ravaged areas of Japan are all recovered and doing well, look again. A great deal is just urban wasteland and continues to be so with diminished levels of rebuilding due to several reasons.....lack of people returning because there's no infrastructure, lack of money to rebuild and maintain the society they dearly enjoyed beforehand, insufficient means and monies to remove debris, waste, and restore the areas, and huge tracts of truck transported debris fields that are full because the recycling industries either can't keep up or are unable to economically process due to lack of demand for the materials.
All that and then there's the other aspect of the nuclear refugees who have their own problems which for the most part revolves not just around the topics above but also because of the nuclear contamination (and further risks of contamination) that the authorities continue to to try to diminish in vapid media reports and yet still are keeping people out and will continue to do so for the main.
Japan is a first-world country with established modern infrastructure, transport and communications, And yet for a great deal of time after the 2011 disaster people were left on their own to deal with things as best they could. Volunteer groups braved very long travel distances by damaged roads to bring much need supplies, help, and human compassion to those in need without a care for the money involved. Contrast that with the close-minded, behind the doors and sanctimonious, pontificating nuclear industry who apparently has so much money but would rather spend it on PR lies than doing any help other than token gestures.
Volunteer organisations and groups couldn't maintain bases in the affected areas because there was no infrastructure such as power and communications let alone continuing supplies coming in to distribute to the very needy citizens. And yet the authorities could happily fly around and apparently wring their collective hands in planes and helicopters whilst the people below waved up at them in vain for ongoing assistance.
Currently a great number of refugees live in 'temporary' housing but despite wishing to return home they are very reticent to do so because not just because their homes have changed but the very social aspect and the society around them are simply not there anymore and don't look to be returning. So they decide to stay where they are and hope for a good change in fate.
I've lost count of the amount of forum posts and article comments by Americans I've seen on the net where everytime something better comes along such as an electric car then the naysayers weigh in with an astonishing similarity of topics such as 'it wouldn't stand up to being hit by an 18 wheeler'. Well my thoughts always are that nothing much would stand up to being hit by one including another 18 wheeler but I always see the 'fear factor' being constantly espoused and that it should rule, as also the standard American stance of making very ugly cars inlcuding very 'angry' looking ones, as if to drive away the evil spirits that might befall them in the freedom of the open roads they imagine.
Engineered ignorance and a generation of fools who actually support the very systems that keep them in check and for which they suffer are the rule and woe betide any poor heretic or group who dare speaks up against them.
Another topic is that alternate energy systems are only on-demand when they are actually generating power by their own particular means of production, and that there's no way for them such as solar to give power at night or keep in in reserve. (this despite the facts to the contrary such as molten salt etc).
The naysayers will always bemoan the fact that 'their' money is being wasted on developing electric battery and power storage technologies and systems. But try telling these foolish people that ALL power is an on-demand system, that there has never been a way of storing that power other than hydro-electric which on off-peak rates pumps up water into a big reservoir lake and has it sitting there until a big amount of power needs to be generated immediately (often to be supplied to other states or even countries), and then once that's discharged there's no more 'rush' of power to give until the water is pumped up there again. Very low-tech but it's been employed for ages now.
Try telling the naysayers that until the recent era of electric power technology for cars and solar power generation that little effort and money was given to the field of power storage because it was always stated that nuclear was always 'ON', or that coal power generation was always there and could have ancillary generators powered up (albeit slowly), oil was plentiful and cheap, and all that was 'cheap' and was 'today's technology now' rather than any impossible, improbable, vastly expensive, and pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking technology.
The truths are far more realistic however, that these power generation technologies are very harmful to humans and the environment right from their mining of materials to their useage and waste products.
Coal-fired generators are ALWAYS burning even when there's no demand for the power they're generating, hence the bait of lower rates for off-peak to lure people and industry to use it up.
We all deserve better and so does the planet we all live on.
What is the root cause of practically all this turmoil and bullshit?
One major cause is money and the entire monetary system.
Money begets greed and corruption, creates utter selfishness and ignorance, trumps common sense, goodwill, empathy and care. It fuels and encourages aberrant behaviour in a false sense of fulfilment that those with vested interests and those who wish the status quos of power & wealth to remain as they are with them.
A sense of protection for the systems have been hammered and developed into people so that they will illogically defend them despite alternatives. They'll deride and try to defeat any and all alternatives for the betterment of humanity.
You see this time and again, and the nuclear industry is no exception at all.
Who do you trust?
The govt and authorities to tell you the truth and look out for you?
Shills in forums and the media who always downplay all problems and disasters, and who never encourage alternatives that would affect their little global feifdoms? Industries themselves such as nuclear, coal, and oil who have a proven track record all throughout history of being lethal to humans & the environment but who always try to diminish their roles in doing so?
Unfortunately for the fantasies of propaganda, reality continually shows them up for the lies and control they really are. All it takes is for a disaster to highlight it and the powers-that-be try their very hardest all of a sudden to work so very hard into PR damage control, of media blackouts, creation of misinformation, planted stories and people all over the place who's sole aim it is to divert attention from people and hose down their energies of outrage and demand for change.
Still, I feel there's hope for the future for the better but it'll take a different tack to what people think will occur for it to happen.
Whatever it entails will not be pretty or easy or enjoyable. The established selfish players have made it that way so that to change tracks the whole train needs to be derailed beforehand. And that frightens people to do their bidding.
I wonder if I'll live long enough before the The Change will occur?
In the meantime keep an eye out for the shills, the fools, the ignorant, those with vested interests, the propaganda. Look into alternatives and decide for yourself after you research it all. Don't accept the words of those who don't want to change.
Open your outlook and look into such places as:
http://thevenusproject.com/
"What is the root cause of practically all this turmoil and bullshit? One major cause is money and the entire monetary system. Money begets greed and corruption, creates utter selfishness and ignorance, trumps common sense, goodwill, empathy and care. It fuels and encourages aberrant behaviour in a false sense of fulfilment that those with vested interests and those who wish the status quos of power & wealth to remain as they are with them."
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.... perfectly stated.
...peace...
They are here to disrupt threads and they have well managed to do that.
Both showed up this week on the thread of Fukushima reactor temps rising. Fist time for Satch and (voiceofreaon) says he seldom posts comments here but says he has fought against nuclear power for 40 years, 10 at CD, but wrote he supports almost all of what Satch says.
~Satch~ denies he ever said the reactors did not melt down because of the earthquake, In reply to CT and who discussed the fact the reactors began melting down due to the earthquake and asks me to show where he ever said that.
In his first inflammatory argumentative posted comment here at CD replying to nobody just posting his comments he wrote in part,, quote, > (“If you think "green" energy is the magic bullet, you're wrong“).
Next Satch wrote,,, > ( “Do you honestly believe people are not aware of how dangerous the Westinghouse designs are, especially those built in the 70's (like Fukushima? ___ You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to spend time understanding something before declaring it bad”)….... And all this time I understood they were GE reactors, (not) Westinghouse, but I’m not a nuclear physicist.
Then after Satches “Westinghouse” reactors at Fukushima, Satch wrote,,, (“You'll get more to go along when you sound like you've done your homework on the subject“) unquote…… Yes Satch, you should do your homework on the subject .
Next Satch wrote, after promoting new nuclear type reactors Satch wrote,, > (“green technologies are not yet efficient enough to be a viable alternative, and there's too much $$$ invested in the status quo for a quick change).
Then Satch wrote, (*talking to himself*), as he had replied to nobody else,,, > (“ And before (you) try a strawman or ad hominem attack, I don't work for the nuclear industry and never have”) ………….. Well who cares, it is quite obvious that Satch was looking for a argument not a debate, attacking any who promoted green energy and is anti nuclear,,, it was his (first) posted comment at Common Dreams.
Then from Satch,,, @ (“My sources for MSR's first were Popular Science and Popular Mechanics. Then I moved to the journals that I could access online. I found the technology quite interesting and haven't heard anyone actually debunk it. I've heard lots denounce the nuclear industry in general.”).... Swell, isn't that special?
Next Satch wrote, in charging the commenters on the thread were not credible, etc.,,, > (“The article above was well written, the comments tend to deride this site's integrity, especially amongst the technically minded. Which derides the cause, as very few whose minds you're trying to change will take this site seriously because of such comments”).
And then he writes, > (“No I do not support the nuclear power industry. I've already stated that.”)……. Yes you stated (something) like that, but you are not fooling us by saying you do not support the nuclear industry … Who do you support Satch? __,,, You are against fossil fuels use and green energy.
Then Satch wrote,,, > (“Enjoy your little club. It's a real shame, the authors of this site are trying so hard to be credible and encourage healthy discussions. They have so much potential.”)… Yes Satch a great deal of potential and we don not need your type here to succeed.
And to the cores did not melt down due to the earthquake,,,, @ Satch.. (“There is little indication that the core was indeed already melting down. Starting to, likely, but without pressure and temperature, after 15:00 on March 11, you cannot confirm anything.)….. And Satch continued to argue with CT and TJ when they argued the cores did melt down due to the earthquake…. If he was not saying they didn’t,,, why is he arguing about it?
@Satch,,, (“You are way too absorbed in your own mantra to really step back and observe yourself. You and Ctrl-Z and PostScarcityAna. The three of you post inflammatory comments (direct violation of CD's guidelines)… Then Satch writes.
@ Satch,, (“Don't waste your time. I fell for her BS. Just walk away and let her think she's won. At least she shuts up after that”)....... How pleasant can Satch get? We'll see.
PLEH,,,, PLEH! ___ Oh nooo, I mean,,, HELP, HELP ! __ Sometimes I talk backwards when I get excited... What happened to coco? I wanted to ask her if she knows a gal named Yonca?
Hey ~CT~,,, I suddenly feel as if a ton of weight was lifted off of my sholders... No glue either.
When you requested your comment deleted did you also ask to have chameleon's comments deleted? His were deleted and his comments were posted before you showed up here on this thread and none had been flagged... Like any relation there, a sock puppet or what?
No S; all of your comments have also been deleted on the other thread you posted on and disrupted as you did here.
And on that thread you stated the Fukushima reactors were poorly designed (*Westinghouse*) reactors.... See cut and pasted comments above, word for word which you posted... You really are impressive on the issue... Less impressive than a road side porta toilet however and had a worse odor... Sorry, that's how it is.
You show up and in your first posted comments here at CD, attacked everyone here instead of just saying why you believe newer and better designed nuclear reactors would be okay in your opiion and state why you think so.
Some would have debated you in an adult, intelligent and friendly manner. There are a lot of good decent people who believe as you do, they are not shills, but they are not educated on the issues of clean energy and have your beliefs that geo-thermal, solar, wind, tidal are not viable alternatives to nuclear and coal fired power plants..
Join in if you desire and don't start with a chip on your sholder. We may learn something from you we don't know and you may learn something from us that you are not educated on... Okay?
And there are many reasons a nuclear reactor can suffer a total meltdow besides earthquakes or tsunamis, including the newer better designed ones.. Nothing human made is fail safe.
I have an issue with your comment:
This reads an awful lot as "people here who don't agree with us on our anti-nuclear stance really not educated enough about clean energy alternatives." Is this your true feeling?
That statement might be true for some, but for others, including myself, knowing and acknowledging the limitations of alternative energies indicates they are not yet at a state, nor in the next few years, to replace the continuous power provided by coal/gas/nuclear. There are many reasons. I don't have time right now to jump into them, with solar being one I can write a great deal on, as I have researched it the most.
I've spent many months reading up on the energy crisis (I provided some of the links in one post, which is only a fraction of what I read) and while progress is being made, there are limitations and no magic bullets (meaning there is no one alternative that can be utilized as a safe replacement).
Quickly, here is one article that explains the problems with the current state of alternative energy and another on the expectations that solar will be cost competitive with coal.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/5-myths-ren...
Take that with a grain of salt. In addition, the current, cost effective solar, is silicon based wafers. The theoretical maximum efficiency is 29%. For the panels hitting 40%, those are not cost effective and not silicon based. I doubt my contacts with NASA would be able to reply with cost estimates for their solar panels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics#Advantages
It is important to note that after some testing, as I have done, current panels are subject to many problems - clouds and installation distance from the equator (more atmosphere means less photons to excite electrons into the conduction bands or provide energy for quantum tunneling).
I do not feel these are "dead" either. With better investment, especially in organic solar panels, you can increase the efficiency, thereby increasing the practicality of their usage.
A good point to note is a reduction in the cost of manufacturing solar cells (those being silicon). What used to be 24MWh for 1kg of electrical grade silicon (you still have to dope the wafer with toxic substances to generate the P-N junctions required for the transistors to exist), a study released in 2010 (sorry no time to find link) shows it is 1060kW for each 1m2 solar panel.
Keep in mind new technology in this field is coming out every few months, which is great, but it has to be built on a massive production scale to be considered a viable alternative. Especially those focusing on infrared, organic, as increasing efficiency (29% just isn't enough - we can do better!) is the key. The more efficient, the better.
Here's the real joy, if you can get the organic (assuming they can actually be tossed aside and have literally no impact -- test test test test and test again to ensure it is true) to have even 30% efficiency and cost competitive with silicon (which has some RoHS problems though they are always improving) cells, man, you could replace your roof with them and when you'd normally change your shingles, you could simply get new panels. (NOTE: You'd need to address snow with this issue, as we get it where I live - freakin' cold too!)
Here's the solar could be cheaper link:
http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/solar-power-should-be-cheaper...
Could be flawed, could be wishful thinking, I have not gone through the article yet or the links to validate the claims.
The point I am making is that all alternatives have flaws, it is important to identify them and rectify them. You mentioned somewhere (no time to link) about volcanic activity in Japan's neck of the woods being active enough to use geothermal to power all of Asia. I haven't searched to see the potential hazards of geothermal or limitations (such as distance to fault lines or quakes from active volcanoes, could those damage the pipes, could those pipes be made to prevent them becoming a lava shoot?).
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I learned some of this (ie: how solar cells work) via university first, then lots of reading online (ugh I hated semiconductor physics - why memorize 4-7page long derivations of energy formulas?). Lots of reading. I want to convert to alternative energies, combination of them would work best, minimizing the cumulative limitations that would be far more influential with just one or two methods.
Once safety issues are addressed, perhaps using geothermal (where possible) to provide that "continuous power" needed, or tidal for those where geothermal is far too cost prohibitive, and use the non-continuous forms like solar/wind to provide additional power and store as much of it as possible.
There is the huge concern (search under smart grid and renewables I think) from current industry experts (even those apposed to nuclear/coal) about storage of energy. Batteries? Pretty toxic and not the best in cold weather (depending on the type) and quite expensive (I've read up lots on these babies too, I want an electric car with 800km range that isn't two seats on a battery on wheels).
How about hydrogen, great medium for transfer/storage of energy but very difficult and expensive to produce efficiently. GE is working on that, but it is on an industrial scale. The most efficient ways seem to be pointing towards industrial scale production (again no time to link to all the articles - sorry). So home-hydrogen is currently not feasible.
This is not as nicely organized as I had hoped, I tried again to fit too much into one post. Each time I read about a new green technology I am excited but they are often hindered by costs or not efficient enough or do not scale well for large production. That is really just a limitation that can be overcome. More investment is required. Getting the SmartGrid out of the board room and into reality would help a lot, but that is a huge task. Utilities are resistant to change, especially when it will cost them huge dollars. That's why one step at a time we can move them forward, in bite-sizes they can chew.
With further research we can pack more vitamins and protein into each bite, and make them smaller, it will be easier to help utilities swallow the plate of alternative energy forms. (sorry, kinda hungry at the moment).
I am aware of the large solar farms being built, already built, and some interesting experiments that yield so much potential but lost their lustre after initial costs (we've come a long way since then).
1) there's this desert-ish area (meaning no trees) in the US where a non-photovoltaic power system was setup to heat oil via these arched sheaths which generates power - cool idea and with further investment could be something more than an experiment
2) I think it's Panasonic or Sharp who decided to cover their rooftop (works well for buildings that are more flat than tall and have large areas) with panels and have drastically cut their bills down (I think Coca Cola did this too or someone who makes sodas)
3) there is a plant somewhere (can't remember where sorry) that is trying or claims or has succeeded (too long ago to remember) to be net-zero because of the panels
These are just three quick off the top of my head examples and I've read many more, all impressive, all showing potential. And each limitation is a reason try to overcome it, not just for the challenge but for the ability to reduce our impact.
More work is required to retrofit buildings and homes. Green roofs are a great start (Vancouver and Toronto have been pushing this, or trying to, but policy is tough to push through). More should be done to help the average older home owner. Not just insulate with cellulose, as I've been looking extensively into insulating and cellulose has its problems too, moisture for one if you can't rip apart your plaster/lath walls to put in a vapour barrier.
Anyway, off topic of the article, but the main point I tried to address in these three posts is that many non-anti-nuclear do have education on alternatives, so it is disingenuous to assume they need "education" and react accordingly. On top of that, it really doesn't help prevent a circular conversation full of building aggravation to attempt to do so. Questions work a lot better on that front, in order to asses what the person knows and does not know, rather than assume and respond.
A peer revewed, long term MIT study, concluded there is enough (readilly available) geo-thermal energy in the United States, to suppy ALL of our electrical needs for the next 50,000 years... I am not qualified to disagree with them.. And the power grids are already in place.. We do not need coal or nuclear fired power plants.
New techniques to produce geo-thermal allow it's use when the temp is less than 400, degrees F.
The average cost to produce geo-thermal is less than 2 cents per KwH... It is not readily available in every place, just in (amost all) places on Earth which are heavily ppopulated.
Most people herer can say more in a pragraph than many others do in five, to twenty.. Most people do not even bother to read looooooong posted comments.
There are no safe nuclear reactors...There is nothing built by humans that is safe. However; when a 747 crashes, a ship sinks, a car crashes an oil refinery blows up, an earthquake or tornado, flood hits a geothermal plant, it does not cause millions to develop cancers later in life, or cause mutations, dna and gene changes, etc... Nor do those types of disasters ruin thousands of square miles of precious soil for hundreds of years... We do not need any nuclear reactors, GE or Westinghous designed, nor any fossil fuel burnng power plants.
Done on this thread, others which are more current to read now.
Some people do not like the Common Dreams policy and they write loooong posts and then a continuation with a part 2 and even part 3s and more looooong posted comments.
That is cheating, ignoring it and is in truth a violation of the CD policy in my opinion. It's dishonest and like most others here, I just ignore those loooong posted commnets as they are most often very boring, like bores at a party or a conference.
Sometimes new arrivals attempt to take control of the site and they are not liked or respected by most others, and they are usually just scrolled on by and ignored... They are also often suspect of being trolling shills and are sometimes replied to with insults.... That is what I have noticed here at CD after 9 years anyway.
some of us do read them, speak for yourself. i've noticed authoritarian types on this page waste a lot of our time commenting on their personal preferences and observations. sometimes this has more to do w/ the individual poster's sense of entitlement. it's just a page in cyber-space - get over yourself and your desire/inclination to want to censor.
...peace..
I have never ever tried to have anyone censored ~bird~ am not a flagger either. but posting those long double or triple part 1 part 2 part 3 posts is actually a violation of the Common Drema 1,000 word policy, because it actually goes against the intent of that policy.
Any honest and reasonable person would realize that and Satch was previously complaing about all of "us" CDers violating CDs comment policies.
I sometimes read them too, but they are usually boring with little educational information, most of the time no one replies to them and I usualy just pass on by. Was just offering friendly advice of my personal opinion to the newcomer. That alright with you bird?___ Don't care if it is or isn't btw.
Do you have any opinions about the issue of the article bird? Or do you just normally stick your beak in other's conversations and rant your asumptions and rudeness? __ Just askin, as I have not seen you on any of the Fukushima threads during the past 11 months.
btw... have you examined your tone... way too serious wayneWR. just an observation.
"Do you have any opinions about the issue of the article bird? Or do you just normally stick your beak in other's conversations and rant your asumptions and rudeness? __ Just askin, as I have not seen you on any of the Fukushima threads during the past 11 months. "
i read many articles (including articles about the nuclear crisis in japan), you're really special though wayne - and i'll make an effort to pay more attention to your astute (lol..) observations about posting comments (real relevant, heh ?).
...peace...
Don't know about the last word ~bird~, but whenever someone replies to me I normally answer, especially if they are mistaken about me and are just writing assumptions.
Guess you missed all of the 36 comment which were deleted here on this thread.
You read many CD articles but don't have anything of any value to offer, not eve on this one where you have bothered to post comments just to crticize me? How sad.
And I cannot express how I feel about your out of the blue criticism of me, words fail me. I'll just have to get along with the many friends I do have here at CD and not count you... I won't sleep tonight. And Bird, I too LOL btw,,, lots.
In my experience, especially in the brief time at Common Dreams, discussions with already established and strong viewpoints about a person or subject, concise comments or posts tend to be subject to assumptions. Assumptions based upon unavailable statements.
I was trying to be thorough while avoiding any room for assumptions that are counter to truths about me or my beliefs.