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In a Pure Coincidence, Gaddafi Impeded US Oil Interests Before the War
When the war in Libya began, the U.S. government convinced a large number of war supporters that we were there to achieve the very limited goal of creating a no-fly zone in Benghazi to protect civilians from air attacks, while President Obama specifically vowed that "broadening our military mission to include regime change would be a mistake." This no-fly zone was created in the first week, yet now, almost three months later, the war drags on without any end in sight, and NATO is no longer even hiding what has long been obvious: that its real goal is exactly the one Obama vowed would not be pursued -- regime change through the use of military force. We're in Libya to forcibly remove Gaddafi from power and replace him with a regime that we like better, i.e., one that is more accommodating to the interests of the West. That's not even a debatable proposition at this point.
"We're in Libya to forcibly remove Gaddafi from power and replace him with a regime that we like better, i.e., one that is more accommodating to the interests of the West," writes Greenwald. "That's not even a debatable proposition at this point." What I suppose is debatable, in the most generous sense of that term, is our motive in doing this. Why -- at a time when American political leaders feel compelled to advocate politically radioactive budget cuts to reduce the deficit and when polls show Americans solidly and increasingly opposed to the war -- would the U.S. Government continue to spend huge sums of money to fight this war? Why is President Obama willing to endure self-evidently valid accusations -- even from his own Party -- that he's fighting an illegal war by brazenly flouting the requirements for Congressional approval? Why would Defense Secretary Gates risk fissures by so angrily and publicly chiding NATO allies for failing to build more Freedom Bombs to devote to the war? And why would we, to use the President's phrase, "stand idly by" while numerous other regimes -- including our close allies in Bahrain and Yemen and the one in Syria -- engage in attacks on their own people at least as heinous as those threatened by Gaddafi, yet be so devoted to targeting the Libyan leader?
Whatever the answers to those mysteries, no responsible or Serious person, by definition, would suggest that any of this -- from today's Washington Post -- has anything to do with it:
The relationship between Gaddafi and the U.S. oil industry as a whole was odd. In 2004, President George W. Bush unexpectedly lifted economic sanctions on Libya in return for its renunciation of nuclear weapons and terrorism. There was a burst of optimism among American oil executives eager to return to the Libyan oil fields they had been forced to abandon two decades earlier. . . .
Yet even before armed conflict drove the U.S. companies out of Libya this year, their relations with Gaddafi had soured. The Libyan leader demanded tough contract terms. He sought big bonus payments up front. Moreover, upset that he was not getting more U.S. government respect and recognition for his earlier concessions, he pressured the oil companies to influence U.S. policies. . .
When Gaddafi made his deal with Bush in 2004, he had hoped that returning foreign oil companies would help boost Libya’s output . . . The U.S. government also encouraged American oil companies to go back to Libya. . . .
The companies needed little encouragement. Libya has some of the biggest and most proven oil reserves -- 43.6 billion barrels -- outside Saudi Arabia, and some of the best drilling prospects. . . . Throughout this time, oil prices kept rising, whetting the appetite for greater supplies of Libya's unusually "sweet" and "light," or high-quality, crude oil.
By the time Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visited in 2008, U.S. joint ventures accounted for 510,000 of Libya's 1.7 million barrels a day of production, a State Department cable said. . . .
But all was not well. By November 2007, a State Department cable noted "growing evidence of Libyan resource nationalism." It noted that in his 2006 speech marking the founding of his regime, Gaddafi said: "Oil companies are controlled by foreigners who have made millions from them. Now, Libyans must take their place to profit from this money." His son made similar remarks in 2007.
Oil companies had been forced to give their local subsidiaries Libyan names, the cable said. . . .
The entire article is worth reading, as it details how Gaddafi has progressively impeded the interests of U.S. and Western oil companies by demanding a greater share of profits and other concessions, to the point where some of those corporations were deciding that it may no longer be profitable or worthwhile to drill for oil there. But now, in a pure coincidence, there is hope on the horizon for these Western oil companies, thanks to the war profoundly humanitarian action being waged by the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner and his nation's closest Western allies:
But Libya's oil production has foundered, sagging to about 1.5 million barrels a day by early this year before unrest broke out. The big oil companies, several of which had drilled dry holes, felt that Libya was not making the best exploration prospects available. One major company privately said that it was on the verge of a discovery but that unrest cut short the project.
With the country torn by fighting, the big international oil companies are treading carefully, unwilling to throw their lot behind Gaddafi or the rebel coalition.
Yet when representatives of the rebel coalition in Benghazi spoke to the U.S.-Libya Business Council in Washington four weeks ago, representatives from ConocoPhillips and other oil firms attended, according to Richard Mintz, a public relations expert at the Harbour Group, which represents the Benghazi coalition. In another meeting in Washington, Ali Tarhouni, the lead economic policymaker in Benghazi, said oil contracts would be honored, Mintz said.
"Now you can figure out who’s going to win, and the name is not Gaddafi," Saleri said. "Certain things about the mosaic are taking shape. The Western companies are positioning themselves."
"Five years from now," he added, "Libyan production is going to be higher than right now and investments are going to come in."
I have two points to make about all this:
(1) The reason -- the only reason -- we know about any of this is because WikiLeaks (and, allegedly, Bradley Manning) disclosed to the world the diplomatic cables which detail these conflicts. Virtually the entirety of the Post article -- like most significant revelations over the last 12 months, especially in the Middle East and North Africa -- are based exclusively on WikiLeaks disclosures. That's why we know about Gaddafi's increasingly strident demands for the "Libyanization" of his country's resource exploitation. That's how we know about most of the things we've learned about the world's most powerful political and corporate factions over the last 12 months. Is there anything easier to understand than why U.S. Government officials are so eager to punish WikiLeaks and deter future transparency projects of this sort?
(2) Is there anyone -- anywhere -- who actually believes that these aren't the driving considerations in why we're waging this war in Libya? After almost three months of fighting and bombing -- when we're so far from the original justifications and commitments that they're barely a distant memory -- is there anyone who still believes that humanitarian concerns are what brought us and other Western powers to the war in Libya? Is there anything more obvious -- as the world's oil supplies rapidly diminish -- than the fact that our prime objective is to remove Gaddafi and install a regime that is a far more reliable servant to Western oil interests, and that protecting civilians was the justifying pretext for this war, not the purpose? If (as is quite possible) the new regime turns out to be as oppressive as Gaddafi but far more subservient to Western corporations (like, say, our good Saudi friends), does anyone think we're going to care in the slightest or (at most) do anything other than pay occasional lip service to protesting it? Does anyone think we're going to care about The Libyan People if they're being oppressed or brutalized by a reliably pro-Western successor to Gaddafi?
In 2006, George Bush instructed us that there was a "responsible" and an "irresponsible" way for citizens to debate the Iraq War: the "responsible" way was to suggest that there may be better tactics for waging the war more effectively, while the "irresponsible" way was to outrageously insinuate that perhaps oil or Israel or deceit played a role in the invasion:
Yet we must remember there is a difference between responsible and irresponsible debate -- and it's even more important to conduct this debate responsibly when American troops are risking their lives overseas.
The American people know the difference between responsible and irresponsible debate when they see it. They know the difference between honest critics who question the way the war is being prosecuted and partisan critics who claim that we acted in Iraq because of oil, or because of Israel, or because we misled the American people. And they know the difference between a loyal opposition that points out what is wrong, and defeatists who refuse to see that anything is right.
Earlier this month, Hillary Clinton hosted a meeting of top executives from a wide array of corporations -- Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan, Halliburton, GE, Chevron, Lockheed Martin, Citigroup, Occidental Petroleum, etc. etc. -- to plot how to exploit "economic opportunities in the new Iraq." And one WikiLeaks "diplomatic" cable after the next reveals constant government efforts to promote the interests of Western corporations in the developing world. Nonetheless, the very notion that the U.S. wages wars not for humanitarian or freedom-spreading purposes, but rather to exploit the resources of other nations for its own large corporations, is deeply "irresponsible" and unSerious. As usual, the ideas stigmatized with the most potent taboos are the ones that are the most obviously true.
It's certainly possible to contend reasonably that (as was true for Iraq) removing a heinous dictator and other humanitarian outcomes will be the incidental by-product of our war in Libya even if not its purpose (although, as was also true in Iraq, one would need to see the regime that replaces Gaddafi to know if that's true). And it's fine -- or at least candid -- to argue, as Ann Coulter often does, that "of course we should go to war for oil. . . .We need oil. That's a good reason to go to war." But to believe that humanitarianism (protection of Libya civilians) was why we went to war in Libya requires a blindness so willful and complete that it's genuinely difficult to describe.
Read more at Salon.com

99 Comments so far
Show AllAnd............"Whitey's On The Moon".
(with gratitude to Gil Scott-Heron)
Actually, what's really pathetic is that Whitey couldn't get back to the Moon now even if he tried.
Now it's more like "and Whitey's playing golf".
Democrats have to realize that they elected a President in Barack Obama, who is more Republican than Democrat.
dems= repubs...flip sides of the same bad coin ! The only answer/ way out: IS non-violent rebellion against corporate/ imperialist amerika at all levels in all ways...including massive civil disobedience and marches! The road to the collapse of the fascist amerikan empire is paved with the suffering that amerika has caused; But the people can establish a peaceful nation..the time IS NOW!
In a pure coincidence, the Project for the New American Century's September 2000 report, "Rebuilding America's Defenses," wished for a new Pearl Harbor to implement its agenda (p. 51 of said report) and got its Pearl Harbor exactly a year later.
It would seem that the United States' oligarchy is blessed with coincidences, which turn out to be opportunities, as Donald Rumsfeld and the New National Security Strategy of the USA (issued in September 2002) called the attacks of September 11, 2001.
I suppose that the invisible hand of the providential God -- with a little help from the US military and the CIA -- keeps on looking after the interests of the American elites.
So we're bombing Libya and not Dubya? Our Democracy has gone
from Chaos to Theocracy in the bblink of an eye. Aristocracy's next.
What do you mean, "Aristocracy's next.?"
The Wall Street tycoons already rule. The ostentatious luxury of past nobles, of ermine, silk and velvet, has been replaced with the understated three piece $2000 Armani suit.
But all the other trappings of 'nobility', the estates, luxurious furnishings, servants, the best food, ostentatious displays of over-consumption, etc, they are still here.
Welcome to the new servitor/peasant/serf class, bunkie.
The government of nations runs in cycles. See Giambattista Vico (Italian philosopher),
g'daffy should not have grown that moustache.
Glenn Greenwald inquires as to why the United States via Obama is spending so much money on the conflict in Libya. One suspects that it is for the very same reason that bombs and drones and Tomahawk missiles were used against the people of Afghanistan and Iraq and Pakistan and that is because the United States knew that it could get away with it. It knew that the United Nations would not stop them and it knew that a compliant Congress would continue to allow almost unlimited funds to be given to the U.S. war machine.
"Endless money forms the sinews of war." -Cicero [106-43 BC], Roman statesman and philosopher
"Erroll"
While Libyan (only) has an estimated 43 billion barrels of fine, sweet oil and is sitting on a large underground water supply, the loss of tens of millions of dollars in weapons sales by the U.S. to Gaddafi probably seems like a fair trade-off to Wall Street and to the U.N.
I think Obama won the Nobel prize for "pragmatism." PEACE most likely means something like Pragmatic Enabling (and) Arming Corporate Enslavers to those "inside" the power loop.
I put on my flak jacket and decided to post my opinion on this issue once again.
The war started when Gadaffi refused to sit down and discuss the complaints with the thousands of protesters, his people. Instead he ordered his military to attack the protesters. The military used heavy weaponry, tanks, artillary, rocktets, helicopter gun ships, jet aircraft, etc and began killing anyone, children, women, any who dared to protest his authority. That is when the civil war began, not when the no fly zone started... Gadaffi started the war in Libya.
Gadaffi threatened (genocide). President Obama whom I personally don't believe is a very good president, sought the authority for NATO to ennforce a no fly zone from the UN. That was granted and the UNs doctrine is to use any measures necessary to prevent genocide. Any measures and in the case of Libya it also stated that no NATO ground forces were to enter any part of Libya.
Cadaffi's troops have killed more than a thousand of his people and hundreds of refugees who were attempting to flee the country. He mined the port and shelled the port and ships and killed many. Some innocent people have been killed by NATO forces. When military action is taken that happens. Use of force is never good, sometimes it is necessary. In this case military force was necessary to prevent Gadaffi from committing (geocide). That is how I see it.
And I realize that is not the entire story by a long shot, but until we or NATO put military troops on the ground, or attempt to control their oil, I will believe Obama was right on this one. He was wrong to not pull our troops out of Iraq and Afghan as soon as he took office. It is also wrong for NATO to attempt to personally kill Gadaffi, to bomb his homes or offices. Let the people of Libya decide his, or (their fate), but it was correct to honor their pleas for assistance.
If any wish to support Gadaffi that is their business, I choose to not support him. One is either in support of stopping Gadaffi from committing genocide, or they are in support of allowing him to commit genocide... It's either this or that, no sitting on the fence tossing rocks. And I am insulting no one here for offering a different opinion.
It is also possible that r.chris@gmx.com and WayneWR are both correct. It may be that NATO and the US were spurred to action by an eminent crack-down that fit their long term plans for controlling Libyan oil.
No need for an either/or dichotomy.
It may also be that Qaddafi shared his oil profits generously with the Libyans and at the same time was a merciless tyrant.
The world is usually more complex than black and white.
"It may be that NATO and the US were spurred to action by an eminent crack-down that fit their long term plans for controlling Libyan oil."
The opportunists, engaged in a collective sigh of relief, relative to their "long term plans", when they realized they had the humanitarian crisis they needed to "justify" killing Libyans on the wrong side. Now, finally, they can start to plan once again how to gain monetarily from another slaughter.
Another shade of gray?
"hue_sir_name"
There are a couple of pretty good articles by Russ Baker on the "Business Insider" website about what is going on in Libya.
One of the articles focusses on Khalifa Hifter (Hefter,Hufter...various spellings) and has a good history of U.S. accusations and assumptions, especially going back through from the Reagan administration onward.
WayneWR, did you even read the article? There is no evidence Gadaffi was going to commit "genocide," nor is there any evidence that US policies have been historically guided by such concerns. Use of that loaded term "genocide" is unwarranted. The Syrian government and others in the region have been even more brutal than Gaddafi, yet the US is not bombing those countries.
It is not a matter of "supporting Gaddafi" or not. I don't support illegal, immoral wars fought for no good reason, nor should anyone else. Gaddafi was not threatening the US or his neighbors. Your view is not insulting, but it is extremely naive.
Memory Hole
Very well said.
Yes Memory_Hole,
I read the article, top to bottom and I also read many other articles which are far different than this article.
I also watched the news footage on several different news channels of Gadaffi's troops shelling the port and ships clearing mines his troops has laid in the port and nearby waters. I also watched footage of the opening days of the killing when unarmed children, women and any present in the streets who defied Gadaffi were mowed down in cold blood. I also watchd as many young people begged for help as they could not fight tanks and aircraft.
WayneWR
If NATO's primary purpose in Libya is to end to fighting and civilian deaths, why are they not paying one bit of attention to Qaddafi's offer of a cease fire and compromise? Isn't that what NATO went there for, to stop the killing? Shouldn't they be announcing "mission accomplished" rather than bombing Tripoli?
At this point, NATO is equally guilty of civilian killings. Are they going to destroy a country in order to save it, like they did in Iraq?
Wayne doesn't care about the facts. He's a tried and true liberal chickenhawk. He's stupid enough to buy this Libya intervention as a "humanitarian war", so perhaps he'll support invasions of Syria and Iran too if NATO claimed they were "humanitarian".
So you think what, the US, whose foreign policy has directly or indirectly (ie Iraq sanctions) led to the deaths of millions of civilians, has the moral high ground on this?
Yah! We support the suppression and ongoing removal of Palestinians. It's a slow kind of genocide. So there is no oil there. What's up with that?
"We support the suppression and ongoing removal of Palestinians. It's a slow kind of genocide. So there is no oil there. What's up with that?"
Just makin' the world ready for ol' Harold Camping to be right one of dese BLESSED DAYS! HALELUJAH!. Gotta get those 'Plains Of Harmageddo' (Armageddon) ready fer th' cummin of da LAWD! YOWSA! CAN I GETS AN 'AMEN' !?
Bring on da 'Red Heifer' and load up dem rifles fer da killin of da sinners, cuz we gots to get de "Holy Land (tm)' ready fer da RAPTURE! PA-RAISE BE UNTA JAY-ZUSS!
(The really sad point is there are people in the US, many of them your idiot gullible neighbors who believe this line of almost-completely-pulled-out-of-some-religious-whackjobs-ass-bullshit about 'The Rapture', that seems to be an almost US only phenomenon. These seriously delusional mouth-breathing droolers actually think by helping Isarel commit slow-motion genocide, they are helping prepare the way for the 'Second Coming(tm)'.)
Thanks. I got a visual off of that.
It would seem you still believe the official fiction that NATO is preventing genocide in Libya.
Unless you haven’t noticed, or cared, Libya has fresh water and oil resources. It has a strategic location in Northern Africa, where the United States lacks military bases. Gaddafi is hated by Western governments, who would love nothing more than to do regime change. Why else would they focus so much on bombing Gaddafi’s compound? This war is purely geopolitics.
Perhaps you’re not a racist, but you are naïve, ignorant and indeed a coward. You are the epitome of a liberal chickenhawk: in other words, you’re gung-ho pro-war as long as long as the war in question is “multilateral” and “humanitarian”. Naturally “you” aren’t doing anything for Libya, except cheer-leading a strategic bombing campaign that has created a stalemate and is therefore prolonging, and worsening, the civil war there. There are no such things as “humanitarian wars”. Then again you are a chickenhawk, so you think all wars are noble and endearing.
Hence why I asked before why aren’t you in Libya? What are you personally doing to help Libya, outside of your spineless cheer-leading from your living room? That’s why I don’t think you really care like you say you do. This is nothing more than a spectator sport for you; otherwise you wouldn’t ignore the blatant facts that this intervention is a cynical case of power projection.
The way you’re accusing people of supporting Gaddafi is disingenuous and hypocritical. The morons who started the Iraq War used the same logic: if you don’t back the “no-fly zone”, the bombing campaigns, or the invasion of Iraq then you must support Saddam. You’re of the same ilk as them.
The only ones who were begging for a NATO intervention were the leaders of the rebel forces, who are also killing civilians and black immigrants. Why aren’t you upset about that? But that’s right, you only care what Gaddafi does. If NATO wanted to invade Syria or Iran, I have no doubts that you would support wars there too. I bet you must love the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh yeah, NATO is doing a fine job murdering civilians and backing a pro-Western government in Afghanistan. The same forces you ignorantly trust to “protect” Libyans of course.
"The war started when Gadaffi refused to sit down and discuss the complaints with the thousands of protesters..."
- backed by the CIA, approved of by the IMF and World Bank, trained and advised by the UK SAS.
"Gadaffi threatened (genocide)..."
- We only have the word of the Corporate State media for that.
"President Obama... sought the authority for NATO to ennforce a no fly zone from the UN. That was granted and the UNs doctrine is to use any measures necessary to prevent genocide."
- Those UN doctrines to prevent genocide SPECIFICALLY FORBID 'Regime Change' as an option. They also forbid retaliation against civilian populations, which the US is committing right now in it's daily bombings of Tripoli.
"It is also wrong for NATO to attempt to personally kill Gadaffi, to bomb his homes or offices..."
- Three admitted attempts so far, the first of which killing two of Quadiffi's children, and six of his grandchildren. Way to Go! USA! YOO-ESS-AYYYY! (BTW, any such attempt is considered an attempted assassination, and as such is a war crime. Sooner or later, this shit is going to come back on you. Bet on it.)
"One is either in support of stopping Gadaffi from committing genocide, or they are in support of allowing him to commit genocide."
- What a wonderful, heart-rending interpretation of the Bush Doctrine. I'm sure it warmed the cockles of 'Big Dick' Cheney's and Karl 'Prince of Darkness' Rove's hearts (if they had them, that is...). I bet you bought the whole bogus 'Quadaffi is giving his soldiers Viagra so they can commit rape' line too.
"... I am insulting no one here for offering a different opinion."
- Only our intelligence.
Thankyou Galenwainwright,
Somebody needed to address those propaganda points, and I am glad you did. Sadly WaynWR forgot to preface each of his points by "our lying media told me that ..."
Lord, more pro-war BS from Mr. Chickenhawk-The U.S.-Is-The-White-Knight-Who-Can-Do-No-Wrong-Our-Wars-Are-For-Good Wayne, despite an entire article, backed by diplomatic cables proving that oil is the reason we are there.
Some people will never see the truth even when it is rammed in their face.
Stick to your delusions, Wayne. I do understand - the truth can be painful. Many people - Americans especially - cannot handle it.
Resource Nationalism. What a great term! I'll use it in two completely different ways.
1. Libyan "resource nationalism" through the eyes of Gaddafi:
"Oil companies are controlled by foreigners who have made millions from them. Now, Libyans must take their place to profit from this money."
In other words, Libyans are entitled to profit from the sale of their own oil. This attitude will earn you a smart bomb in your bedroom window.
2. American "resource nationalism" through the eyes of Ann Coulter:
"of course we should go to war for oil. . . .We need oil. That's a good reason to go to war."
In other words, Americans are entitled anybody else's oil and to take it by force, if necessary. This attitude will earn you a Nobel Peace Prize.
By the way, what we are all watching here is the early phase of World War III, which is now under way. The US has shut down its democracy (except for the window dressing) and is now engaged in a world-wide resource grab by military means.
"By the way, what we are all watching here is the early phase of World War III, which is now under way."
To be completely honest, what we are watching is what was accurately predicted by many Peak OIl theorists, to wit, war over dwindling resources. It started with a false flag operation (9/11), moved into a pipeline route grab (Afghanistan), escalated in the invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation (iraq), proceeded to the encirclement of a prime target (Iran), continued with the infiltration and mobilization of popular movements to destabilize regional governments (the so-called 'Arab Spring'), and is now entering the end game with an open declaration of hostilities for the purpose of securing the fringes of the new Imperial colonies (Libya).
And it's not like the US has done this before. No, not like, oh say, the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, the subsequent invasion of Viet Nam, and the stealthy spread of the war to Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Burma, with US Military bases seeded throughout Indonesia and Asia, encircling China.
Sooner or later, the US is going to run up against a rival for resources that WILL be able to inflict damage on the US Fatherland. And that's when this shit is going to get far TOO real for the US sheeple to handle.
Yes, that rival will be China.
It's like living that episode of the Twilight Zone with Billy Mummy as spoiled brat who has the household living under terror. In this case the bratty USA has the world under house arrest and a comeuppance and decapitation is long overdue. I can only hope and pray, even if it means my own personal demise. I'd consider it my parting gift to all creatures, great and small, mother earth herself.
Exactly right. The U.S.' hubris and arrogance is hilarious. They actually believe that there will never be a reckoning day for all the death, destruction, invasion, theft, and hegemonic oppression they are inflicting on everyone else in the world. Talk about ignorance.
I for one look forward to the day when the U.S. experiences its karmic blowback - yes, even if it means my own destruction also. A small price to pay for the sigh of relief the world will breathe.
Thank you Glenn Greenwald for nailing the truth on our collective bulletin board again. Wars are NEVER fought for the reasons we the people are told. They are NEVER fought for humanitarian reasons, but for geostrategic purposes of the powerful interests like oil companies and the military industrial complex. Where are the protests in the US against all of this madness? It seems people are so cowed by the economic downturn and their own delusions about Obomber to protest in significant numbers.
It's time for mass protests, general strikes, tax resistance. The US is overdue for its own Arab Spring.
Memory Hole
Bravo! Your perspicaciously written second sentence is most persuasively borne out by David Swanson's extremely well argued book which makes the accurate observation from its title that War Is A Lie.
Any good writer can write anything...
Edgar Rice Burroughs novel (Tarzan Of The Apes) was one of the most sold books ever penned, it outsold the Holy Bible.. It was fiction. So is the book of Genesis, but both books are or were best sellers.
WayneWR
Your bizarre comment makes absolutely no sense at all. I was not arguing that War Is A Lie should be recommended because it is, like the books that you have mentioned, a best selling book. As far as I know, it, unfortunately, is not. What I thought I had said was that Swanson has persuasively written a book that demonstrates quite clearly how few if any wars which have been fought, especially by the United States over the past one hundred years, have ever been justified.
Perhaps you might want to actually read the book first before coming out with such illogical and visceral statements..
bizarre?
I didn't berate the book you mentioned, or the author, or you Erroll.
I said ("any good writer can write anything"), and cited an excelent example. What is bizarre about that?
A book does not have to be (accurate or factual) to be good reading and be a best seller.
I also do not like war, not at all.. And most wars America has started were wrong, illegal and criminal... I also do not like (genocide) by a dictarorial leader, or one who commands a powerful military..
So how would you stop Gaddafi? __ He refused to discuss his problem with any world leaders. Do you want to see him kill a few thousand of his people and hundreds of refugees? __ I don't. And any who say he would not have done that are guessing, he had already killed near a thousand and was lining his forces up to shell and bomb a city and likely kill thousands.__ So, let him have his way? Would that have suited anyone here?
The ones who are writing the anti-Obama articles about the Libya NATO action aren't politically motivated? __Of course not, that is not possible... Right?
Most here believe it is (only) about oil... I believe this time it was about genocide and people. If military or Blackwater type ground troops are ever sent in, I will change my mind.
WayneWR
If you were to pick up and read War Is A Lie you would find Swanson correctly noting that "any war today must be justified in humanitarian terms unknown in previous centuries" [p. 84]. Swanson devotes a chapter in his book to the proposition that:
"Wars Are Not Waged Out of Generosity"
As he points out on page 93, "... freedom and democracy cannot be imposed at gunpoint by a foreign force..." He also has a whole chapter in pointing out that:
"War Makers Do Not Have Noble Motives"
My response to your query regarding Gaddafi can be put forth with a very simple question. Can you please inform us when it was that the United States was appointed to be the policeman of the world? What was the exact date that this prestigious event took place?
I'll answer your question Erroll,,, even thugh you evaded and ignred mine.
No one has appointed the US to be a policeman for anyone. Our presidents have done that however. The worst examples are Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanastan in my opinion .
In the case of Libya, President Obama (did not) just take action and send troops or start the no fly zone... He sought the written legal policy of the UN and requested the UN to authorize action by NATO to prevent Gadaffi from (committing genocide). The UN gave that authorization.
You and others ignore that and say it is Obama. It was not... The UN mandate on that issue is clear and it has been followed so far... To take whatever action is necessary to prevent genocide, less sending in any ground troops. And many people of Libya asked and begged for assistance. Remember; thousands had peacefully protested against Gadaffi.
In addition; the UN action is not a war as war is defined. It is a military action to prevent a dictator who has a large military force from murdering thousands of his own innocent people... We can call it a war or a police action, or a military effort to prevent genocide,, and one can play games with (words)... Gadaffi started a civil war in Libya, not Obama or NATO... Gadaffi has asked for a cease fire, but his terms are simply to delay what he intends to do. It is up to Gadaffi to say he will stop killing people and stop and have his troops lay down their arms. Some of his pilots deserted and flew to other countries because the refused to bomb civilians. Many of his ground troops have joined the rebel forces.
I will ask you again... What action would you have supported, if any? Or would you have preferred everyone allowed Gadaffi to do as he pleased? __ Those are fair questions... I do not expect a reply however, as I have already asked those questions and you replied with a rather smart alec question,,, which I answered.
And I say the NATO action in Libya is not a war in what is deemed to be a war. Would you say for example, it is a war to take military action to stop pirates from stealing ships and sailing vessels and killing the passengers and crews?
I do not approve at all of NATO trying too target or kill Gadaffi. That in my mind is attempted murder. To go after tanks, artillary, troops firing on civilians, military installations and aircraft to prevent (again) genocide, is what the UN mandate states and I agree with that.
Finally; do you just agree with EVERYTHING authors write, agree with their opinions without question? It's alright with me if you choose to do so. Any political motives from that author, or do you know or care?
WayneWR
Due to time constraints let me simply address your last question. I fail to understand what "political motives" you believe David Swanson has especially considering the fact that you have not bothered to read the book. The only motives that I can see that he has is that he recognizes, as I as a Vietnam veteran also do, that war is carried out for the most specious of reasons. And as I previously stated, I believe that he puts forth those reasons in a most cogent and persuasive manner.
I never said he had any political motives... I asked if he did?
You have time constraints... No, you just don't want to answer those fair questions. They were asked twice and you wrote a lot of things but ignored the questions, as I knew you would. Btw, I served two tours in Vietnam and 27 years total service.
This discussion or debate is over.
Wayne
You served "two tours in Vietnam and 27 years total military service." Am I somehow supposed to be impressed by that? It would seem that all that time that you foolishly spent being, as former Marine Smedley Butler pointed out in his book War Is a Racket, a muscleman for big corporations had little if any positive intellectual effect upon you.
My suggestion is that you might wish to read War Is a Lie as that might, just might help to broaden your horizons regarding the idiocy of war regardless of the excuse used by so many Americans like yourself that the military conflict in Libya is somehow justified because it is being waged because of alleged humanitarian reasons.
I see your "time constraints" weren't so severe to prevent you from launching personal insults to me within an hour.
Yes, I served in the service for 27 years and don't care if that impresses or depreses you or not. You have no idea of what my job was. You were the one who brought up the point you were a Vietanm vet... I replied to that.
Those fair questions I asked of you were too difficult for you to answer. I doubt any here wish to answer them . And Gadaffi's troops have killed more than a thousand civilians and hundreds of refugees attempting to flee his country. You don't mind that? You don't mind if he was about to commit genocide, your silence on those matters is revealing of what you are.
Support Gadaffi if that's your desire, I choose not to do so.
Your comments are in support oto allow Gadaffi to commit genocide or killing any who oppose him. You may talk to yourself now, I'm finished replying to such an obtuse and isnulting person.
Wayne
First I will state that I find your liberal interventionist opinions to be just as contemptible as those put forth by the neoconservatives. In addressing your illogical statements, it must be pointed out that when government troops engaged in battle at Misrata 22 rebels were killed while NATO bombs ended up unjustifiably killing Libyan civilians. None of those rebels were identified as being civilians which certainly comes as a shock as you claim that Gadaffi is supposedly engaged in committing genocide against his own people.
Next, you keep asking what action should be taken against Gadaffi. As I thought I had made clear earlier why should any action, as you put it, have to be made against someone who, like Saddam Hussein, has never threatened anyone in these United States? Again, since the United States [and you even admit yourself] has not been elected to be the policeman of the world then it is certainly not up to Barack Obama or any other American to interfere militarily in the internal affairs of another country. I fail to understand how I can make this any clearer than that.
Oops, one more,,, final. I see you bothered to insult me again here as your "time constraints" are obviously over.
You wrote,,, > "First I will state that I find your liberal interventionist opinions to be just as contemptible as those put forth by the neoconservatives. In addressing your illogical statements"... <
Liberal? I'm considered by those many who know me well to be very middle of the road (assumer)... "illogical"? That is your personal opinion. I find you to be quite dishonest and very obtuse to refuse to answer those two fair queations I have asked and I have replied to your questions.
Finally (asumer); I don't have that book you pormote on hand and don't have the time right now to visit a book store or the library. And when it comes to neoconservatives, that looks like you to me... Your actual purpose here is to attack Obama and his decision to help the citizens of Libya. Your assertions its all for oil is neocon blather, there is absolutly no proof at all that is true, it is (assumptions). It was true in Iraq, Libya is not Iraq.
Wayne
If you are still out there allow me to try this one more time. You keep claiming that I am insulting you. About the only statement I made which may validate your claim is when I informed you that I find liberal interventionists like you contemptible. I am not going to back off that statement since I believe that to be true. That also hardly qualifies as being anything close to an ad hominem attack. What I also find hypocritical about you is that you claimed on June 11, 2011 at 7:35 pm that:
"I also do not like war, not at all."
But like your fellow liberal hawks you seem to have no problem with war if it means that many innocent civilians are being torn to pieces, as this link clearly demonstrates, by NATO bombs.
http://sfbayview.com/2011/mckinney-human-rights-fact-finders-show-libyan-deaths-injuries-not-propaganda/
As that story indicates, despite the claim by The New York Times that civilian atrocities committed by the U.S. and NATO forces are "propaganda", investigations uncovered by a fact-finding team headed by Cynthia McKinney reveal through interviews of wounded innocent civilians in hospitals in Libya, that those stories of civilians being severely wounded and killed in Libya by Western forces are indeed true. Contrast these interviews with hospital patients with the fact that there are very few if any credible reports of Gaddafi killing thousands of civilians and one then comes away with the logical conclusion that the Western press [as evidenced by the report cited by The Times in the link] are playing fast and loose with the facts when it comes to war time activities. As former U.S. senator Hiram Johnson once accurately observed:
"The first casualty, when war comes, is truth."
One final note. Despite what you seem to believe, I was indeed telling the truth when I stated that I had had time constraints because, believe it or not, some of us happen to have families and cannot sit in front of the computer apparently like you do for twenty four hours a day, We even have to allow ourselves a little time to have dinner. You, however, were less than truthful when you claimed that I returned within the hour to write a reply to you. If you had bothered to check I had written that comment at about 10:42 pm. I then returned and made another reply to you at 12:00 am which, according to the old math, is more than an hour after my other reply to you.
But my main point is quite valid and that is, that despite your errant belief, NATO forces have indeed tragically killed and wounded and severely maimed and crippled many innocent civilians in Libya as those interviews in that link clearly demonstrate.
And you didn't insult me for serving in the military for 27 years? And you wrote all of that,,, but still refused to answer two fair questions. You prove my points about what you are. And indeed innocent civilians have been killed by NATO forces. Unlike Gadaffi, those were not intended murders and not close to how many Gadaffi's forces has killed or intend to kill... NATO is not committing genocide.
Answer the questions... You never will,,, you cannot, without admitting I am correct and you are incorrect and your bull about (time constraints) is just bull. You replied to me within the hour with a lot of words, but you still refused to answer the two fair questions.. I changed my mind, and replied to you again.
You wrote (that your main point is valid). Your main point has been to say the UN and NATO action that Obama requested was wrong. So since you have a problem of remembering what you have previously written I will ask the questions again so you may remember what they are,differnt word usage but the same questions. Perhaps different word use will make the questions clearer for you to comprehend.
(1)... Do you believe it is alright for Gadaffi to commit genocide on his people and also murder refugees attempting to leave his country?
(2)... If you don't believe that allowing Gadaffi to do that iss alright, what action would you have supported to stop him?
Answer those two fair questions Mr. obtuse assumer, who insults others who have a diverse opinion on the issue, with obnoxious and unnecessary blasts and also uses strawman tactics in an attempt to confuse the issue.
That's you Mr. Obtuse Assumer,, and any who wish to go back and read our posts can easily detect that is true criticism.... Now I am finished here, unless you should answer the two fair questions.
And I wonder if any others here wish to answer those two questions? __ Hah, never!
"It's time for mass protests, general strikes, tax resistance. The US is overdue for its own Arab Spring."
Momentum is growing for a mass protest in DC, October 6, 2011. Those who can't attend might just take your advice as a way to participate.
Published on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 by CommonDreams.org
History Is Knocking: Stop the Machine! Create a New World!
by Kevin Zeese, Margaret Flowers, Tarak Kauff, Elaine Brower
Well. let's see now.
Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh was legally elected Prime Minister of Iran. He noted that virtually all the profit from Iranian oil went to the western companies. He determined that a fair percentage should go to the Persian People.
Britain and our CIA offed him and put in the Shah, who promptly gave back the profits to the western oil companies.
Saddam Hussein was our own creation, aided by the CIA et al., and was to wage war on Iran. He did, but used some of his illegal, American supplied, poison gas on a village of his own people who had attempted to assassinate him.
Later, he began screwing around with OPEC and the western oil cartels. Then, he had to go. The Kuwaiti fraud was put forth and Saddam was defeated, but left in power. As he continued to try to manipulate the oil market, he was demonized again by Bush redux. It was decided that the only way to truly control Iraqi oil was to invade, to remove the "tyrant" and bring peace and freedom to the Iraqi people.
The plan was originally named Operation Iraqi Liberation, but somebody pointed out that the acrostic was too realistic.
O peration
I raqi
L iberation
So it got changed to Operation Iraqi Freedom. We all know the horror that released on the Iraqi people.
We don't need to go into the history of our CIA operative Osama bin Laden, but that gave an excuse to invade Afghanistan, which flanks Iran and is also a main pipeline route for oil and gas.
Now Qaddafi wants a larger share of the oil profits to go to Libya and look what is happening. What a surprise! Whatever "revolutionary party" which will guarantee non interference with western oil profits will be the new, sanitized, Qaddafi.
Meanwhile, the sheiks who are willing to sell us oil with few quibbles and let us build bases, are perfectly free to slaughter and torture their own people. We stay uninvolved except to supply the sheiks with plenty of US made weapons to kill their own people.
We shield and protect Israel with our veto from any UN attempt to censure or restrict their brutality in the Palestine Ghetto. We also pay them a $3 billion tribute every year, (American taxpayer's money) mainly for weapons and enhanced security against their own people.
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a pattern here?