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Today's Top News
Jobless Benefits About to Lapse As Senate Dems Mull Strategy
WASHINGTON -- Senate Democrats are discussing their strategy for reauthorizing extended unemployment insurance on Tuesday as the expiration date for the jobless aid is fast approaching.
Two million people could prematurely lose their benefits by New Year's Day, according to the National Employment Law Project. Currently five million people are receiving aid under two federally-funded programs for the long-term unemployed. (AFP/Getty Images/File/Justin Sullivan) Neither the House nor the Senate will be in session next week, aides say, so extended unemployment benefits for the long-term jobless will need to be reauthorized this week before they expire on Nov. 30.
Two million people could prematurely lose their benefits by New Year's Day, according to the National Employment Law Project. Currently five million people are receiving aid under two federally-funded programs for the long-term unemployed.
Yet no clear path forward has emerged in Congress for reauthorizing those programs. Aides have floated the idea of coupling the benefits with a reauthorization of the expiring Bush-era tax cuts for the top two percent of earners.
"I support extending unemployment benefits whichever way we can do it," Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D-Mich.) told HuffPost before heading into a weekly caucus lunch with other Democrats.
Sen. Ben Nelson, a Nebraska Democrat who sided with Republicans when they blocked the previous reauthorization for nearly two months this summer, said he doesn't love the tax cut deal.
"That's a mistake," said Nelson, who has joined the GOP in opposing the extended benefits unless their deficit impact is offset with spending cuts. "Unless unemployment is paid for, I can't support it."
(Nelson and Republicans do not insist on offsetting the deficit impact of tax cuts for the rich, estimated to be near $700 billion. The progressive Economic Policy Institute puts the cost of a full year's worth of extended unemployment benefits at $65 billion.)
"I think what we want to do is not give $700 billion in tax breaks to the richest people in this country and cut back on the needs of Americans who are really really hurting," said Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) before meeting with his colleagues. "I'm walking into the room, those are the things I'm going to fight for."
A lobbyist who has been pushing for a year-long reauthorization said Democratic leadership sees tying unemployment to the tax cuts as an effective strategy. "Leadership is very aware of the beautiful symmetry of tax cuts for millionaires doesn't need to be offset but $293 a week for the long-term unemployed does."
Aides have said it's not likely a deal on unemployment will be sorted out this week, meaning a lapse is highly likely. It would be the fourth lapse in a year. People who missed checks during the previous lapses were paid retroactively when Congress got the job done.
The programs needing reauthorization kick in after a layoff victim's initial six months of state benefits are exhausted. If the benefits lapse, people whose state benefits end after Nov. 30 will be ineligible for the additional 73 weeks of benefits granted to people laid off closer to the beginning of the recession.
State workforce agencies have made it through some of briefer lapses without a major interruption in benefits, but NELP estimates that this time, 800,000 people in the federally-funded "Extended Benefits" program, which offers 13 or 20 weeks, depending on the state, will almost immediately stop receiving checks when the program expires.
People receiving benefits in any of the four "tiers" of federally-funded "Emergency Unemployment Compensation," which provides up to 53 weeks of aid, will be unable to move to the next tier or to EB once their current tier expires.
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45 Comments so far
Show All""Leadership is very aware of the beautiful symmetry of tax cuts for millionaires doesn't need to be offset but $293 a week for the long-term unemployed does."
I suspect that a large number of the unemployed voted for Republicans this month. I wonder how many of them now wonder why they did.
Like most Americans, most of the unemployed don't let facts get in the way of a good story.
I don't think many of the unemployed voted for Tea Party or Republican candidates. I think many of them simply stayed home and did not vote. They knew the Democrats had no intention of extending UI benefits beyond the maximum 99 week limit (in some States), and just prior to the election many Democrats in Congress where whining about even re-extending toward a 73 week maximum limit. Trouble is, folks, unemployment is set to continue going up, especially government sector lay-offs. There are no jobs being created in anything remotely like the numbers that need to be created every month just to keep pace with new workers entering the job market for the first time, let alone for all the "officially" unemployed, long-term unemployed and chronically under-employed. Real unemployment excluding the chronically under-employed is over 17%. If you include the chronically under-employed that figure is fully 22%. Peak Great Depression unemployment averaged 25%.
The government sector lay-offs have barely begun, and just like the manufacturing jobs we lost to "free trade," those government sector job losses mean a loss of spending at the local and regional level that will lead to more businesses failing and secondary waves of job losses. This is the beginning of the true deflationary death spiral. Crashing employment, crashing consumer spending, crashing demand, withered inventories, more lay-offs. Lather, rinse, repeat. Quantitative easing ain't going to fix it. Extending $700 Billion dollars in fiscally insane, historically unprecedented war-time tax cuts for the super-rich ain't going to fix it. The ONLY time tested method for stimulating demand in order to stimulate production of inventory in a deflationary spiral is direct government job creation on a large scale, and even then we would have to phase out the "free trade" regime and subsidize a Green New Deal to at least end the spiral down, even if we never "economically recover" in any 20th century historical sense.
From the 1956 Republican party platform:
"We are proud of and shall continue our far-reaching and sound advances in matters of basic human needs—expansion of social security—broadened coverage in unemployment insurance —improved housing—and better health protection for all our people. We are determined that our government remain warmly responsive to the urgent social and economic problems of our people."
Things keep moving further and further to the right.
Yes ,if Republicans Eisenhower or Nixon were resurrected and tried to run in the DEMOCRATIC PARTY primaries, the DNC would criticize them for being too left wing and marginalize them the way they do to Kucinich, Dean, Nader.
Today's Republicans would call them enemy combatants.
You two have it exactly right. Eisenhower, a five star general and Republican president, believed in universal health care and universal housing modeled on the military health care system and military base housing respectively. There's not a single Democrat in Congress now who would dare suggest spending tax money to house all the homeless and we've seen their botched attempt at "health care reform." Several months back Obama dared to say that he wanted to end homelessness in America for women and their children. The DLC powers-that-be and their bankrollers shoved that idea back down his throat so fast he never mentioned it again since and I doubt he ever will.
Yes, you are correct. Republican President Nixon proposed a national health care system that is far more "socialist" than what came out of last year's Congress -- though you'll never get a present-day Republican to admit it.
Every year, the political "debate" in this country shifts father and farther to the right. No thanks to the Dems, who quake and piss their pants every time Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh accuses them of being too "liberal". I'd just as soon the 50% of Dems who are firmly in the pocket of moneyed interests switch and join the Republican Party, so we'd actually have an opposition party -- however small -- that stood for the interests of the citizen over the corporation.
At least then we'd have a meaningful debate in this country. Not a rush to the right.
The money we could get from the Bush tax cuts could pay for allot of things. We really should go ahead, and increase thier taxes even more, so we can cover health care. Then we should raise them more, so we can rebuild our roads, and bridges. We should investigate the banks, and mortgage companies, and wherever they find illigal activity, they should be arrested, and all thier assests siezed, and given back to the American people. Our money is here... we just need to find it, and take it back. We have lots of prisons, so there is plenty of room for all the crooks we have to go to jail. Perhaps we can take the drug addicts out, and put them in rehab, and put the crooks in prison.
Yes, why hasn't hope and change Obama proposed:
1)Elimination of income tax Raygun imposed on unemployment insurance benefits in 1986 ?
2)Increasing the cap on Social Security contributions in order to increase benefits for all recipients ?
3)Extending Medicare coverage to 55-64 year olds ?
Always nice to know that the most basic and elemental decency requires a "strategy".
You have hit the nail on the head. This is a sorry mess.
I recently read a summary of a study, produced by the Federal Dept of Labor, that showed more unemployed people accepted job offers in the two weeks after their UE benefits ended than in the 6 months before. It also showed that the wage/salary accepted was generally less than what they had asked for, but quite comparable with their previous earnings. The percentage of folks taking much lower-paying jobs (commonly called under-employment) was actually quite small.
One conclusion the study listed as a possibility was that UE benefits were generous enough that they overwhelmed the incentives to move to regular employment, and were thus less than effective in the recovery efforts.
Comments on other possible conclusions?
I'd have to see the study.
Prior to the onset of the Great Recession in 2008, most people found work BEFORE exhausting their benefits.
There are currently 5 job seekers per opening. That is the largest contributing factor in long term joblessness.
Your "study" sounds an awfully lot like the Republican idea that unemployment benefits are bad because they make people lazy - a red herring for sure.
Interesting red herring theory. The study was produced by the current administration, and studied the last several years, including several years before the recession.
The link on the DOL website seems to have disappeared... Wonder why?
The path of least resistance? Are people really just lazy and shiftless? If so, that does not need reinforcing. Let the benefits expire.
Let the criminal big banksters be put on trial and imprisoned where they belong. Let the Democratic Party die as it now fully deserves. Let present and former executives of Goldman Sachs who advised presidents Clinton, Bush II and Obama and the GOP leadership all have their avaricious insular necks caressed by Madame Guillotine--followed by every sorry greedhead sympathizer like you.
I don't think I would go as far as lazy and shiftless. I think that most people are able to hold out hope for that "perfect" job, as long as the UE money is coming, but rapidly go for the "good-enough" option as soon as it runs out.
Still though, how does this apparent phenomenon inform our public policy debate on the wisdom and humanity of extended UE benefits? Do we select a short time to bridge folks over the ramp-up time for job hunting, or a longer time for another purpose? What about options for partial benefits should someone take a part-time or low-wage position while still searching or preparing for full-time employment?
Another option might be to start UE benefits after a period of time, relying on individual savings for short-term job loss and support for extended unemployment due to economic downturns.
The system we have now is relatively generous, and can last a long time. Are there ways to use the system to influence behaviors more beneficial to the unemployed person and to society?
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
What part of the Department of Labor statistic cited two months back that there were five applicants for every available job don't you compute? That disparity is on track to more than double by the 2012 elections. What's your plan for the vast majority of those folks who can't find jobs no matter how hard they search--homelessness?
"I think that most people are able to hold out hope for that "perfect" job, as long as the UE money is coming, but rapidly go for the "good-enough" option as soon as it runs out...Still though, how does this apparent phenomenon inform our public policy debate on the wisdom and humanity of extended UE benefits?"
I think that most fraudulent cente-millionaire and billionaire banksters are able to hold out for their multi-million dollar TARP-funded and "QE" sustained bonuses since 2009 so long as the tax-payers are looted and the Fed runs the printing presses 24/7, but would rather go to "Club Fed" than a real federal prison if they were prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned the way they should be. There would be Trillions of times more wisdom and humanity in such prosecutions, convictions and prison sentences for those criminals than there ever could be in curtailing unemployment benefits under present deteriorating economic conditions.
"The system we have now is relatively generous, and can last a long time. Are there ways to use the system to influence behaviors more beneficial to the unemployed person and to society?":
You clearly don't have clue one what you're talking about. Our system is less generous and more predicated upon short-term economic recoveries from recessions than any developed Western nation that hasn't already succumbed to EU Central Bank-compelled "austerity" measures in order to flog the dead economic theory of neo-liberalism. Are there ways to use the system to influence behaviors more beneficial to the robber barons of High Finance, Big Insurance, and the Rentier Class and to society?
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
"...that showed more unemployed people accepted job offers in the two weeks after their UE benefits ended than in the 6 months before. It also showed that the wage/salary accepted was generally less than what they had asked for, but quite comparable with their previous earnings. The percentage of folks taking much lower-paying jobs (commonly called under-employment) was actually quite small."
I think you're spouting horse turds four feet up a horse's ass as high as you can get. But I do know one thing for sure: Every economic advisor to presidents Clinton, Bush II and Obama who was a former top executive at Goldman Sachs has repeatedly made out like a Gilded Age robber baron from the Housing Bubble, the TARP handouts and Federal Reserve "quantitative easing" purchases of T-bills from "chosen transactor" Goldman Sachs (that Goldman Sachs sets its own prices on). They and the big banks and AIG and all the other mortgage servicer parasites who defrauded the people of the United States of, by various estimates, between $11 and $14 Trillion dollars of wealth just from the Housing Bubble implosion alone (let alone all the related rip-offs and foreclosure scandals and "quantitative easing" downward pressure on interest rates and home values since) are running around loose when they should be in prison.
You've got the DLC Dim and Rethuglican pigs in Congress demanding deficit offsets (spending cuts) to pay for $65 Billion dollars a year to extend unemployment benefits but refusing to demand deficit offsets in order to extend a historically unprecedented and fiscally insane war-time tax cut for the super-rich that will cost $70 Billion dollars a year for the next ten years. Why do immoral fools like you waste our time with your garbage?
I'll tell you what, slick, more criminal banksters that should've been put on trial and imprisoned in 2009 accepted TARP/tax-payer financed bank bonuses to the tune of $20 Billion dollars that year than they would've been able to do if their sorry asses had all been in PRISON where they still belong. After the original Great Depression and the related Pecora hearings on fraudulent bank behavior over 300 banking executives were jailed. Just that $20 Billion dollars in bank bonuses they rewarded themselves with for looting the entire country would've prevented any one of 23 worst affected States from having to lay-off teachers and other government sector workers over the last year. Who's worse, people who struggle harder to find a job when their unemployment benefits run out, even though the odds are mounting against them anyway, or obscenely rich plutocrats and their cronies who rape the entire country and demand and get multi-million dollar bonuses for it, followed by $2.3 Trillion dollars in "quantitative easing" just to inflate more asset bubbles for these speculatory super-predators at the expense of more home equity when there are already too many millions of underwater mortgages? Which side are you on, fool?
Dear dreamjoehill:
Don't forget that many of the jobs offered are hourly, or part time, and have no benefits. Sometimes there are jobs, but they are so very far away, so that transportation would eat up a lot of the money. Too, many college grads have BIG education debts, or are behind in their payments, and the paper trail they have looks bad to potential employers.
On the other end of the experience spectrum,there are people with lots of experience who seem to be willing to take a pay cut, but they are overlooked anyway. That is very sad because very often the employees with a long work record also have the history and experience of the work.
Before I was laid off, two administrators, were fired, and since that time, 4 different new people have come in who were repeating some of the old and disasterous mistakes, either because there was no one to tell them, or the new managers were offended at suggestions. from the long term employees. Old ways were never looked at, just trashed. I supposee that they have gone through even more managers by now, and repeated many of the past mistakes. It did seem at the end there that a lot of us felt like we were working in a hamster wheel.
I've also read that more and more people are getting more and more work because no replacements are hired. They do more work because they don't want to be unemployed. Or, like the rubber stamp mortgage industry, people are hired with no skills because they will do the work for little cost. the outcome of this fraud to the homeowners doesn't seem to be important to those employers.
It is very sad , but cutting people to save costs doesn't necesssairly save the knowledge. Without that history, everybody starts working in that hamster wheel; nobody, nor any business gets any better like that.
If they're not elitist pigs they're political cowards.
There is little hope for positive change when people are so ill-informed as to vote against their own self interest. Ignorant people ask to be abused and they get abused. What a surprise.
What the hell are you talking about? I was laid off in early 2008 while Bush was still in office. I hated everything that criminal son-of-a-bitch stood for but he and the Dem led post-2006 Congress only allowed one two-month gap between unemployment benefit tiers his last year in office. Obama rode in with the biggest Democratic majorities in Congress in 35 years and those sorry DLC tools let a three month gap between benefit tiers hit right out of the gate--just when the lay-offs from the implosion of the Housing Bubble were at their WORST. I had to sell off half the stuff I owned to survive that gap. This article claims they let four (4) benefit lapses happen on their watch. Get your facts straight before you bloviate. Both dominant Parties cooperated on elevating neo-liberalism as national economic policy; both Parties cooperated to push corporate collectivization of small and medium-sized family farms; both Parties cooperated to legalize usury; both Parties cooperated to pass the "free trade" regime; both Parties cooperated to deregulate the banks and derivatives; both Parties cooperated to allow the TARP handouts to the big banks without any legal strings attached; both Party leaderships support more "quantitative easing," and the entity that has profited most from all these grand betrayals is Goldman Sachs, who is currently setting its own price on what it charges the Fed to buy up Treasury bills with Sachs as the middle-man. Former Goldman Sachs crooks have been senior economic advisors to presidents Clinton, Bush II and Obama.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
New Deal economic progressivism successfully got millions of Americans through the 13 years of the Great Depression, but it depended on domestic war-related manufacturing coupled with post-war civilian product manufacturing (when much of the rest of the world's industrial manufacturing capacity had been either damaged or destroyed and the U.S. had fewer competitors) to get America out of the Depression.
Today, post-Housing Bubble America has numerous technologically sophisticated manufacturing competitors and a withered domestic manufacturing based with the largest idle manufacturing capacity of any nation since the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Our country faces the additional hurdle of the "free trade" treaty regime that acts as a barrier to the rebuilding of our domestic manufacturing base (with traditional heavy industries or as a more globally competitive green manufacturing base). The "free trade" hurdle is something FDR never had to face, so once war-time and post-war domestic manufacturing took off, America could afford a stronger social safety net going forward from 1944 (Bretton Woods) until the early 1970s.
Then rising Cold War expenditures, the advent of early neo-liberalism in 1970 and 1973 (when Nixon took us off the gold standard, and Treasury bills were linked to deficit financing backed by global oil exchange values reliant on the U.S. dollar as the key global reserve currency) and Reagan's regressive income tax version of neo-liberalism began to eat away at domestic discretionary spending, including poverty welfare programs. Thirty years later here we are with the most obscene income disparities and over-concentration of wealth in the hands of the richest 1% since the Gilded Age, and both dominant political Parties poised to extend historically unprecedented war-time tax cuts for the super-rich while they slash what's left of the tattered social welfare safety net.
To even begin to afford the type of expanded social welfare safety net the country urgently needs going forward for any meaningful length of time--to preclude another full-on Great Depression for one thing--the U.S. would have to throw all the worst domestic and foreign economic policies of the last 40 years into reverse:
(1) We would need to immediately restore post-WWII marginal income tax rates of 90% or better on the richest 1% for at least fifteen years and we should keep it at at least 66.6% after that.
(2) Social Security should be removed from the General Fund and restored as a fully independent trust fund (a true lock box) so that Congress cannot borrow against it. The income tax deduction for Social Security FICA (Federal Insurance Contributions Act) withholdings should be restored. Social Security annuities should be excluded from taxation. Social Security payments should be excluded as a disqualifier or limiter for other welfare subsidies.
(3) We would have to do a slowly phased-in, industrial sector-by-sector moratorium on the "free trade" treaties over a 12-to-15 year period commensurate with a comprehensive analysis of the numbers and types of domestic manufacturing jobs offshored over the last 16 years since the signing of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)--with a view towards using temporary government subsidies to help domestically restore as many of these older types of manufacturing jobs as possible
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Part II:
(4) A complete and transparent audit (that lists "black ops" expenditures without going into mission particulars outside relevant closed committees in Congress) should be made of the Department of Defense (DOD). The School of the Americas should be eliminated--not simply renamed. The Guantanamo prison system should be eliminated and its prisoners either put on trial in civilian courts or released to other countries who will have them. The Pentagon's policies should be subjected to a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis every five years commencing immediately. Regarding the "Global War on Terror," a competent cost/benefit analysis should entail the persistent asking of fundamental questions about policy effectiveness like: Have the last nine years of Pentagon and Executive Branch strategies and tactics in this global war reduced the overall number of terrorists here and abroad or triggered a growth in their numbers? Have these strategies and tactics reduced the overall number of terrorist attacks and attempted attacks or triggered a growth in the numbers of these events? Policy assessments and spending cuts targeting ineffective Pentagon and related Executive Branch strategies and tactics, failed defense programs and related wasteful expenditures should be made accordingly and they should commence as soon as possible to restore some fiscal sanity to our defense budget. We now annually spend two and a half times on the DOD what we spent at the peak of the Cold War when we faced the far more serious threat of global thermonuclear annihilation--and we have far less to show for it.
(5) We would have to accomplish a comprehensive domestic economic Green New Deal phased-in over a 7-to-12 year period to build a green domestic manufacturing base and a clean-as-possible energy paradigm in the United States. That should include substantial government subsidies of domestic green manufacturing start-ups in order to produce jobs making green goods, providing green services, expanding old and building new mass transportation systems, and building a fully modernized national electrical grid that can efficiently purchase surplus solar, wind and geo-thermal electricity from small-to-large private landowners. The federal government and/or States should subsidize the installation costs for privately owned solar, wind and geo-thermal energy systems, and the construction of a national network of renewable electricity re-fueling stations for electric cars, and guarantee private landowners a sustainable price floor for renewable energy generated by those systems for at least a twenty year period or more. Germany has pursued a similar grid model with great success and are on their way towards 30% clean renewable energy on their grid by 2020 with a national goal of 80% renewable energy by 2050. The U.S. has considerably less than 2% clean energy in its antiquated, fossil fuel dominated multi-grid system. A Green New Deal should also address by direct government job creation via a new Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) the elimination of our anti-competitive $2.3 Trillion dollar physical infrastructure deficit by effecting nationwide infrastructure upgrades of roads, bridges, sewage systems and storm drainage systems and proper maintenance and conservation of our national parks, wilderness areas, wetlands and national monuments. The new CCC should also embark on the task to fully re-plant our national forests that were clear-cut over the last forty years. Antiquated dam systems that interfered with salmon runs should all be eliminated and those river systems cleaned and restored. Full funding for the Environmental Protection Agency's clean-up "Superfund" should be compelled from original corporate and other polluters and not paid for by U.S. tax-payers. Food, drug and other product safety regulatory laws should bar former corporate executives from becoming federal regulators providing "oversight" on industries they previously had links with, and such regulators should be barred from going to work for industries they previously provided federal oversight on for at least seven years after they leave their regulatory positions with the government. This would encourage the rise of dedicated and objective, technocratic government product safety regulators to replace the current class of corporate hacks masquerading as product safety regulators.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Part III:
(6) The U.S. should accomplish a 5-to-10 year phased-in shifting of the tax burden away from productive labor and domestic industry and back to Wall Street "financialization," Big Insurance, and the Rentier Class that exploits all forms of tenancy, privatized "toll booth" utilities, privatized "toll booth" natural resources (previously shared as a commons), and antiquated, 130 year old mining laws that allow tax-free domestic mining of billions of dollars of mineral wealth every year.
(7) A complete and transparent audit should be made of the Federal Reserve. The international community should move towards fully transparent and enforceable banking laws. The highly effective Glass-Steagall Act that built a firewall between retail/commercial banks and speculatory investment banks should be fully restored. Pirate banking enclaves should be eliminated. The ability to illegally and legally hide taxable income in offshored "tax haven" accounts should be eliminated as part of the new transparency. The global $600 Trillion dollar black market in derivatives should be fully regulated and made transparent. A system of globally recognized capital controls should be agreed to to prevent predatory currency raids. It's worth remembering that the first national income tax law in 1913 ONLY taxed the richest 1%, and all capital gains were taxed as income. Hedge funds, had they existed then, would've also been taxed as income, not as interest. They are currently taxed as interest at 15% which, under present fiscal circumstances, is the nauseating height of avarice.
These are the sorts of things that must be accomplished in order to establish a more environmentally sustainable economy, establish a leaner and more effective national security defense policy, and prolong a decent social welfare safety net.
Basically if they vote against extending unemployment benefits they will be saying a big f*** you to unemployed workers. Go ahead... they say... be poor, be hungry, go homeless. We don't give a f*** about you.
Is there a moral equivalence between the government's taking money from someone who earned it and the government giving money to someone who didn't? Is a tax "expenditure" the same as the dole? Does the government own all the money everyone makes so that if they let you keep some, that's morally equivalent to their paying out money they collect to someone?
More fundamentally, is it a valid purpose of government to redistribute income in the belief that those who earned it don't deserve it?
I dunno -- ask Warren Buffett, who I don't think would argue he's "earned" his billions of dollars in the same sweat-of-the-brow way his receptionist earns her thousands of dollars:
"NEW YORK, June 26, 2007 -- Warren E. Buffett was his usual folksy self Tuesday night at a fundraiser for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) as he slammed a system that allows the very rich to pay taxes at a lower rate than the middle class.
"Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.
"Buffett said that was despite the fact that he was not trying to avoid paying higher taxes. "I don't have a tax shelter," he said. And he challenged Congress and his audience to see what the people who "clean our offices" are taxed, to loud applause.
"Buffett said that he and other privileged Americans must do more to help the less fortunate."
.... but what would Buffett know about the privileges of a rich person in America? I'm sure you're much wiser.
I don't think most wealthy people would object to having long-term and short-term capital gains lumped together with ordinary income if capital losses could be deducted, dollar-for-dollar without limitation, against ordinary income in computing taxable income.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Fuck most wealthy people. They have been my class enemy all my life and I have zero respect for any one of them I've ever met. They are personal cowards who safely rely on henchmen to do their bullying for them. They are also greedheads, liars and pointless gits. They fail to justify their constant whiney demands for tax cuts on the basis of their false claims that "tax cuts produce jobs." That hasn't been true since the advent of their "free trade." I'd guillotine most of the richest one-tenth of one percent at this point just on general principles to make a very hard example they'd be forced to contemplate.
And here you are whining about deducting capital losses when your degenerate ilk already have the rest of us at the mercy of the cannibal casino capitalist roulette wheel. "Winner take all?" Fuck you. You scum should eat your goddamn capital losses and I hope you will and that you fucking choke on them.
Horace: "Force without judgment will fall of its own weight."
"More fundamentally, is it a valid purpose of government to redistribute income in the belief that those who earned it don't deserve it?"
Even more fundamentally than that, is it a valid purpose of the upper-class to over-concentrate wealth in the belief that, with all the privileged, often inherited power they enjoy to anti-democratically dominate all three branches of government, and own the mass media to control information and influence over public opinion in order to help themselves acquire (and hide) so much ill gotten gains, that they owe nothing back to the society that has allowed them to concentrate such wealth and power? Do the masses of our society, so many of whose losses are gains for the limitlessly avaricious upper-middle and upper-class, deserve this?
Even Europe's decadent aristocracies had some aristocrats influenced enough by basic Christian morality to appreciate and act on the concept of noblesse oblige. That is a concept utterly lost in the Amurkan plutonomy--an economy of, by and for the plutocracy that has recapitulated its class tyranny into a form of government.
On what basis do you assume all wealth is ill-gotten and results in losses for others? Your Marxist theories don't work in the real world, as history has demonstrated. Look at the Forbes 400. Most of the people on that list are self-made and some are quite young. Many, like Sergei Brin and Larry Page (who co-founded Google) became fabulously wealthy because they had useful ideas that they had the stamina and foresight to put into practice, creating thousands of jobs. Your theories assume that the creation of wealth is a zero-sum game--like coin-tossing, where somebody wins and somebody loses. It's not like that. People generally become wealthy by growing the pie, contributing something useful to the economy. If, like Warren Buffett, they choose to be magnanimous, that's wonderful, but they aren't evil by virtue of having become enormously wealthy.
No, the fear of losing that wealth is what makes them afraid and do evil acts to "protect" themselves. I agree with Metal bring on the guillotine!
Most on the list are "self-made" billionaires?
I suppose. To a degree.
Indeed, I'm sure they didn't really benefit from the public highways and public transit that got their workers to their companies. Nor from the public K-12 and public universities that provided them with educated workers who can read, write, and engineer complex computer components. Nor from the publicly-developed Internet that allows them to communicate instantly with professionals and workers and customers all over the world. Nor the publicly-subsidized airports or rail lines that allow them to ship their products from coast to coast. Nor the public court system that protects their copyrights and patents from infringement, and allows them to prosecute those who steal their trademarks. Nor the system of public parks, wilderness areas, open spaces, and libraries that keep their workers entertained and inspired and active and healthy. Nor the publicly-supported firefighters who keep their factories and homes from burning down, nor the publicly-supported officers of the law that keep their offices from being looted. Nor the public supervision of the banking industry (and recent public bail-out of the same, to the tune of $700 billion) that keeps the investment money in their products flowing. Nor the public laws that protect the quality of the water they drink, the air they and their workers breathe, the safety of the autos they drive, and the quality of the food they feed to their children.
Not to mention how much they benefit from the cheap food they can eat thanks to underpaid migrant workers, and cheap products they can buy thanks to underpaid foreign factory workers.
But, yeah, aside from that, they are completely self-made, to the extent that they obviously don't owe a damn thing to the society in which they thrive, do they?
That said, I don't mean to come across like one of the many ranting Marxists who run amok on this site. I do happen to recognize that government rarely "creates" wealth -- it merely (ideally) creates the conditions that allow entrepeneurship and creativity to flourish, tries (ideally) to maintain a level playing field, and helps (ideally) to ensure that society as a whole gets to enjoy the fruits of its investments.
But to suggest that multi-millionaires, "self-made" or otherwise, don't owe something back to the society in which they thrive seems ignorant at best, and downright mean otherwise. Sure, we have to find a balance. But right now, there IS no balance. Millionaires and corporations get to pick the politicians and media they want, and manipulate them like their own personal puppets. The rest of us fight each other for the scraps.
Sorry, but that just ain't right.
Though I'm sure the bastards at Goldman Sachs who will award themselves $3 million each in bonuses this year "earned" every damn penny. I'm sure they've convinced themselves they do.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
The biggest largess that the ruling class obtains from our government are (1) their ability, with deep pockets, to buy "justice" in the court systems with top dollar law firms and endless appeals, (2) to buy members of Congress (with the overwhelming bulk of campaign donations) to do their lobbyists' legislative bidding regarding the enactment of laws that directly benefit their business interests' bottom lines, and (3) to pressure corporate/military-industrial welfare quid pro quos from Congress that include everything from special tax loopholes, kick-backs, direct subsidies of already profitable businesses, foreign policy interventions in foreign countries on behalf of their business interests in those countries, etc., and (4) tax-payer funded government/university research programs that develop technologies and patents that are forked over to the private sector for them to profit from--instead of the private sector having to pay for all that research itself.
Yours is an intelligent comment, one of very few on this website. You are certainly right that every citizen or inhabitant benefits from the civil order and institutions that make up our society. Having said that, those who create great wealth by their own intelligence and hard work should not have those rewards arbitrarily confiscated in the interests of "fairness" (a Marxist shibboleth). We need the Sergei Brins and Larry Pages of our society to make this a better place to live. They should pay taxes like the rest of us; the question is how much. I don't think we need "Metal" quite as much. Thank you for your comment,
Any evidence to support that assumption, or are you just bloviating?
Huh?
metal has certainly had quite a say on this topic. I hope we can continue our discussion on the wisdom and humanity of supporting long-term unemployment in lieu of other possibilities.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
I certainly have. I hope we can continue our discussion on the wisdom and humanity of supporting long-term corporate welfare, bank and insurance firm bailouts, "free trade," the shifting of the tax burden away from High Finance, Big Insurance, and the Rentier Class and onto productive labor and industry, and "quantitative easing" in lieu of other possibilities.
“There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.” -- plutocrat Warren Buffet
Metal, when you come back from the day room, you'll need to take your meds.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Hey, I didn't say it, Warren Buffet did. Take your bullshit beef up with him.
metal wins!!!
All other posters deemed unnecessary!
See ya' later.